Guild Wars 2

and a forum bug bump

Ohoni.6057:

If this content would not have these skins with tokens, then is would be dead content, right now however, because it has skins locked behind them, it stays relevant, and it will stay relevant to some degree for the rest of the duration of GW2’s lifespan, because it has actual incentives to go there, maybe not specificly to you, but to some players.

True enough, I’m just not sure I see that as a virtue. Yeah, people might still grind out dungeons for the tokens until they get all the various things, but is that really a positive thing? I think that when dungeons stop being the “meta” activity, they should fill two roles, either 1. You do them once each path to experience each, or as many times as it takes for you to stop enjoying the experience itself, or 2. they provide a level of generic loot that makes them worth running if you want to, but gives you no reason to run them if you do not.

I do not believe that players should be given particular reason to grind them out for any length of time longer than “because I’m having fun,” the instant someone stops enjoying it they should be able to drop everything and never come back, without abandoning any specific rewards in the process.

And that would make them irrelevant, and players may still want to do them, but parties for dungeons would not be seen that often. Like it or not, these rewards in dungeons keep them relevant to a point where new players will not have any problems finding parties for them, no matter how bad the gold reward is, because people will still be doing them for skins. No generic reward can have this effect. Wich is why unique rewards are imo essential for any group content, so it can stay relevant. This is proven just by how much the “non speedrun”-paths are being run in this game.
Take Honor of the Waves as an example, the speedrun path is clearly path 1, but nearly every time i do it people ask at the end: “2 and 3 aswell?” because they are getting an item, and they want to get it faster. If gold reward was the only reason people did dungeons, then the fastest path would only be ran and you’d have the same problem.

People will not group for group content if it rewards less then solo content, because grouping takes effort, unless there is something there that you cannot get in that solo content.

Balancing the entire game around gold rewards that are ‘worth_ running if you want to, but gives you no reason to run them if you do not’ is something impossible imo. And even then i do not see it as a bad thing at all that skins give people reason to run these, because i do not agree with you on how skins should not be locked behind content. If i like a skin but i don’t like the content, i honestly either get over it and try it anyway (who knows i may like it after all) or i don’t get the skin, and i’m fine with that. I LOVE that i can’t get everything and that sometimes i envy other players, it gives me reason to keep playing.

Ohoni.6057:

If this content would not have these skins with tokens, then is would be dead content, right now however, because it has skins locked behind them, it stays relevant, and it will stay relevant to some degree for the rest of the duration of GW2’s lifespan, because it has actual incentives to go there, maybe not specificly to you, but to some players.

True enough, I’m just not sure I see that as a virtue. Yeah, people might still grind out dungeons for the tokens until they get all the various things, but is that really a positive thing?

For the dungeons themselves it is a positive thing, since it keeps them running. But the thing is, even if new players want the tokens for the skins, if the old players already moved on, it will be harder and harder to find players to run them. Creating another potential problem, if older players are unwilling to keep running dungeons, since they got all the unique rewards already, then new players will have nobody to run it with (or learn from) We don’t how much the upcoming nerf will hurt dungeon running in the long run, but it might be significant, or it might not affect running at all. We’ll see how it works in practice.

The greatest example was Arah Story mode, it has a great exclusive reward, finishing the Personal Story, yet because the material rewards from it were so abysmally low, compared to the time required (Arah Story has LOADS of standing around and waiting, making it awful to experience a second time) few players wanted to re-run Arah Story Mode after they got their exclusive reward, so Anet made it possible to solo it.

Maybe that’s the future of the other dungeons too, being doable solo, but only time will tell if that ever happens. The other solution would be to add more value to those tokens, maybe revert the ecto salvage rate nerf from rare dungeon gear, so they become more profitable in another way. But I doubt they care, they even said so.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, the Legendary blog post left me without a lot of hope. It seemed to describe a long process of “do exactly what we tell you, no choice, no options, PLAY IT OUR WAY.”

That seems to be the opposite of fun to me, and the opposite to the first three years “play it your way” promise. I really hope they clarify all this that you will have actual options, and not be forced into specific lanes if you want specific rewards. There are plenty of activities that I absolutely love in this game, but there are also plenty of activities that I want no part of, and I don’t want the game telling me that I have to do a little bit of everything if I want certain rewards.

They give you another option to get a precursor and you feel forced to do it their way? What? If you don’t like the precursor path/mastery then don’t take it, you can still get a precursor like before.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

If this content would not have these skins with tokens, then is would be dead content, right now however, because it has skins locked behind them, it stays relevant, and it will stay relevant to some degree for the rest of the duration of GW2’s lifespan, because it has actual incentives to go there, maybe not specificly to you, but to some players.

True enough, I’m just not sure I see that as a virtue. Yeah, people might still grind out dungeons for the tokens until they get all the various things, but is that really a positive thing?

For the dungeons themselves it is a positive thing, since it keeps them running. But the thing is, even if new players want the tokens for the skins, if the old players already moved on, it will be harder and harder to find players to run them. Creating another potential problem, if older players are unwilling to keep running dungeons, since they got all the unique rewards already, then new players will have nobody to run it with (or learn from) We don’t how much the upcoming nerf will hurt dungeon running in the long run, but it might be significant, or it might not affect running at all. We’ll see how it works in practice.

The greatest example was Arah Story mode, it has a great exclusive reward, finishing the Personal Story, yet because the material rewards from it were so abysmally low, compared to the time required (Arah Story has LOADS of standing around and waiting, making it awful to experience a second time) few players wanted to re-run Arah Story Mode after they got their exclusive reward, so Anet made it possible to solo it.

Maybe that’s the future of the other dungeons too, being doable solo, but only time will tell if that ever happens. The other solution would be to add more value to those tokens, maybe revert the ecto salvage rate nerf from rare dungeon gear, so they become more profitable in another way. But I doubt they care, they even said so.

You are mistaken here, i’m sorry.
There is no hard seperation between old and new, there is from launch players who have all the unique rewards already, sure, but there are also players that play since 1 year or less, who are still actively getting the rewards, you see this often because they want to run all the paths each day, not just the easy ones.
This idea that there is a bunch of people that have all the skins, and then a bunch of inexperienced people, and nothing in between is so wrong. People that we considdered inexperienced a few months ago are learning you know, there will always be people trying to get that last skin, the experienced ones, and people trying to get the first skin, the inexperienced ones. Dungeons may not be run for gold anymore but exactly because of the unique rewards, they will remain relevant for a long long time to whoever needs the skins. Also i think you are a bit kitteny if you think newer people won’t be able to complete a dungeon run because they don’t have an experienced player with them. I mean sure, it would go faster if they used all the speedrun stacking spots, but it’s not like dungeons are super hard in the first place.

Fox.3469:

Dungeons may not be run for gold anymore but exactly because of the unique rewards, they will remain relevant for a long long time to whoever needs the skins.

Yes thanks to the exclusive rewards they will remain relevant, I never said otherwise. The question is for how long. I gave the example of Arah Story Mode, it’s a one time reward to finish the story, so it’s not the same as explorable mode dungeons that have loads of skins to acquire, but it is an example of an exclusive reward being the only reward in some piece of content. And what about Story modes of other dungeons? They have the “exclusive” reward of allowing you to unlock PVP tracks and start Explorable mode dungeons, but they aren’t being run all that often.

All I’m saying is that while those exclusive rewards will keep dungeons going for a time, it won’t last forever, just like those other forgotten parts of the game, the story modes. And tokens aren’t used only to unlock skins but to also buy items then salvage them, so at the moment combined with the excellent gold rewards, Dungeons are a very good source of income, as well as having great exclusive skins. We don’t know what will happen if one part of the equation (the income) is reduced. We’ll see how it goes and if those exclusives will be enough or not.

I’m not against dungeon exclusives, I just don’t think those alone will be enough to keep dungeons relevant in the future.

This game is one of the LEAST gindish ones there is. Just because YOU decide to do something 9001 times in a row doesn’t mean you should do that. It’s only grind when you make it so.

From all the reward systems in game I like the dungeon tokens the most.

Yet I find them to remain at an underwhelming progression rate, that was set at far far distant time in the past, when dungeon token rewards were able to interfere with the Trading Post item influx.

I think to have a purely personal deterministic reward progression system for each type of content should be the base mechanism to make it feel rewarding on top of it being fun in the first place.
You can still put in rare RNG direct drops on top for an additional moment of suspense when players open the final chest.

In order to make token style rewards best you just need to make sure of two things:

1) Ensure that all rewards bought from token style progression can neither be traded nor recycled/transformed into anything tradeable.

2) Up the reward progression to a level where you get 1 complete small thing for 1 repetition of the entire thing (like kill all bosses AND do all optional encounters AND kill all trashmobs == token sum for 1 item of smallest price at least)

On top of that you can use tuning with TP-effective rewards like gold, drops, etc to fine tune player interest in specific parts of the game.

Things that really would have benefit from a proper token-track progression added to them are the big world bosses, with Tequatl and Triple Wurm being the most prominent.
As they are now, they are just straight out terrible RNG loot systems that almost every single time feel like you got kittened over when you open your “epic” loot chest.
Except for the very rare cases of major lottery winnings, those loot systems are just a major let down almost every single time.

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

Dungeons may not be run for gold anymore but exactly because of the unique rewards, they will remain relevant for a long long time to whoever needs the skins.

Yes thanks to the exclusive rewards they will remain relevant, I never said otherwise. The question is for how long.

For as long as new players join the game, so basicly forever if the game keeps the growth up that is has atm. Also imo not more then 1% of the actual player base would have all the skins in dungeons atm. Sure the dungeon runners may be well on their way or may have reached this point, but it’s a very small minority imo.

Also Arah story mode is an extremely bad example since it did offer only 1 skin and then only if you were on the story step. The reason it was hard to find groups after a while is because if you weren’t on that story step, you had not a single reason to do it, this is why it’s now a soloable instance. (all other story dungeons can be used for lvling your character for example)

Imo the only paths that aren’t frequently run are Arah path 4 and the Aetherblade path. all others are basicly being run every single day. And in case of Arah (1,2,3) that has nothing to do with gold rewards.

With HoT, I thought that maybe, just maybe, I could get a legendary. I’ve never had a precursor drop, so I figured these new legendaries would be accessible. Imagine my chagrin when I read that you need to sPvP. Awesome. Back to gold farming for me.

misterman.1530:

With HoT, I thought that maybe, just maybe, I could get a legendary. I’ve never had a precursor drop, so I figured these new legendaries would be accessible. Imagine my chagrin when I read that you need to sPvP. Awesome. Back to gold farming for me.

The sPvP aspect from what I understood can be bought of the tp should players choose to sell it

If you don’t want to do legendary grind, don’t make one. Go make ascended or just buy a set 1 legendary, which will drop in price as people get the set 2 legendary anyway. Same stats you just lose the ability to switch stats and leave footprints on the ground that look cool.

I haven’t made a single legendary since launch, sold every precursor, and I have zero disadvantage cause I own 6 sets of ascended armor/weapons and have the same stats as everyone with legendary.

You want to switch stats and leave footprints, do the work. Or don’t, and you’ll still have the same stats as everyone who won’t do the work, assuming you’re ascended.

Legendary is optional, legendary grind is optional, this isn’t “level your character up by doing a 10000 quests that gives you 1% of 1% of your level”. Its not required.

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

Dungeons may not be run for gold anymore but exactly because of the unique rewards, they will remain relevant for a long long time to whoever needs the skins.

Yes thanks to the exclusive rewards they will remain relevant, I never said otherwise. The question is for how long. I gave the example of Arah Story Mode, it’s a one time reward to finish the story, so it’s not the same as explorable mode dungeons that have loads of skins to acquire, but it is an example of an exclusive reward being the only reward in some piece of content. And what about Story modes of other dungeons? They have the “exclusive” reward of allowing you to unlock PVP tracks and start Explorable mode dungeons, but they aren’t being run all that often.

All I’m saying is that while those exclusive rewards will keep dungeons going for a time, it won’t last forever, just like those other forgotten parts of the game, the story modes. And tokens aren’t used only to unlock skins but to also buy items then salvage them, so at the moment combined with the excellent gold rewards, Dungeons are a very good source of income, as well as having great exclusive skins. We don’t know what will happen if one part of the equation (the income) is reduced. We’ll see how it goes and if those exclusives will be enough or not.

I’m not against dungeon exclusives, I just don’t think those alone will be enough to keep dungeons relevant in the future.

The only thing relevant about Dungeons in the future will be their dungeon tokens to get the Gifts for Original Legendary Crafting. Whether that be the original intent of said dungeons rather than just another gold farm is entirely in the air, but as long as that incentive to craft any of the first set of Legendaries exists, they will still be run.

The issue I am most worried about though will be to what extent are some dungeons never run, the gold incentive being dropped hurts a lot of the incentive to do fast clears of Arah for instance. I suppose we will see guildmates and friends helping each other out for earning Legendary tokens, but at this rate SPvP might be a more alluring option for the solo player.

Not that expanding the tokens into SPvP was bad in the first place, the SPvP environment was so disjointed from the rest of the game they needed to include its own reward tracks for certain exclusive rewards. I don’t think at the time there was any means for SPvPers to get legendaries otherwise until they implemented the earning of tokens there.

Grinding was not required in the past for any kind of contents (or at least not very excessive), but I have the impression it won’t be the case in HoT, promoting grinding at the beggining is a terrible thing…

This new ways to farm stuff seems reasonable. But i’m scared that the ‘map farm’ will take 2 days ‘per map’ to just get that one Item you need from that one map, in enough quantity. That’s just way to grindy. I really hope it’s not like that, But it hink it will. The Megaserver system nerfs map farming (events almost always done), wich in essence slows down map reward farm.

Secondly, the way they are going with fractals seems crazy grindy, don’t see how it will be less/equal as grindy as now, wich ‘more of the same but harder, rewards lowered, and more items then ever needed from it’.

PS i say this as veteran player. I just surpassed 10 000 hours playtime (some afk, ofc, but still).

The least grindy thing atm about guild wars (to me) is Silverwaistes. The map has many different things to do (events, vinewrath, lab, champions, defend, escort, jumping puzzle, chest farm etc). And rewards a common currency, that if you focus enough on it, actually goes up plenty fast. No grind there to me. Queensdale is a nice map. When doing it for map completion I like it. But having to repeat it EVEN more to get map completion reward for legendary? Maybe 1-2 hours, but if more, no thanks. It will feel way to repetive, something the map isnt made for.

Being less grindy (or feeling less grindy), a map needs a lot of possible things to do, to get the same reward. Dry top/silverwaiste, dungeons to lesser extend, current fractals (not new planned ones) to even lesser extend do this. Farming mad kings labyrint over and over does not do this. It’s nice cause it’s only every year. But if that map was permanent available, nobody would play it (to boring, single perspective playstyle focused). That makes it more grindy or at least feel more so.

That’s trying to explain why i think fractals (wich we already know and played a lot) and ‘map reward’ are not a good thing.

Also i worked hard for getting a lot of achievements. But Anet has silently Nerfed it. It only works on mob kills, while being below lvl 80 now (used to work always). That means they don’t want it to work for masteries. So you do all this work for some bonus Exp, and now they NERF it, double grind feeling to me. This is what truly gives me the feeling Anet intends to slow us like turtles.

And that would make them irrelevant, and players may still want to do them, but parties for dungeons would not be seen that often.

And that’s fine. If two people really want to run a dungeon, and three people really don’t want to run a dungeon, but feel compelled to because they haven’t gotten all the tokens they need, then that might be great from the perspective of the two that want to do it, but it’s far from ideal for the other three. Those latter three players do not exist to serve the other two’s interests, they would be better off being able to do content that they actually enjoy.

Content should only be as “relevant” as it it fun to people, if it stops being fun then it doesn’t deserve to be relevant. If a few people still want to do it but most people don’t, then it’s not up to the game to make it easier for those few players to form a group, at the expense of those they get grouped with. Maybe it takes them longer to form a group, maybe they have to strong-arm friends, maybe they have to pay others to group with them, the game should not do that work for them. They are not entitled to a ready party at their convenience.

For the dungeons themselves it is a positive thing, since it keeps them running

Yeah, but the dungeons themselves don’t give a kitten. They do not have feelings to hurt if you don’t do them. This game is about the players, and the players want to do the things that they find fun. If exactly zero people ran dungeons in a given night, that would be perfectly fine, so long as the players were having fun.

They give you another option to get a precursor and you feel forced to do it their way? What? If you don’t like the precursor path/mastery then don’t take it, you can still get a precursor like before.

The previous method was junk, and we’ve been pressuring them for three years to make it better, which they promised to do over two years ago. The new system is better than the old, nobody is arguing otherwise, but after three years fo waiting, it doesn’t seem nearly better enough. If they’d launched with this system than I don’t think I’d have minded it, but after waiting for three years it jsut seems like way more time and effort than it’s worth.

The old system was stupid grindy. I can’t wait for this thing to come out.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but the dungeons themselves don’t give a kitten. They do not have feelings to hurt if you don’t do them. This game is about the players, and the players want to do the things that they find fun. If exactly zero people ran dungeons in a given night, that would be perfectly fine, so long as the players were having fun.

Well once you take away the unique rewards of content, to me, you are taking away my fun, and i’m 100% sure that there are many people that think the same way as i do. Chasing unique rewards is my favorite thing to do in mmo’s. You know why? Because that is what mmorpg are built around. You cannot keep a game active as long as mmo’s are active with the system you are suggesting, wich is why i’m also sure A-net will never fall for it.

Samhayn.2385:

Obtena.7952:

Mahou.3924:

Ohoni.6057:

Yup, here you admitted it. Your entire threads and subsequent posts are nothing but for your own personal gain. You don’t want to play the game as it is intended to be played. Just the reward. Yep!

You want the same. You’re just in the lucky position that they seem to be offering you what you want without having to ask for it. That does not make you more virtuous for defending the status quo.

Bingo. Too bad that a few posters are so in love with themselves that they simply refuse to see their own ego/shortcomings or the chance that they could actually be wrong.

Bingo that people choose a game that appeals to their sense of fun and achievement when others do not? Is that serious?

Honestly, Anet does not cater to moulding a product to every customers desires. If someone thinks the game doesn’t live up to their standards, you find a different product to play.

People chose this game with stuff like no grind and best gear by 80 being the direction of the game.

Are you implying people can’t continue to enjoy the game because they cling to academic paradigms? I don’t know what specific people’s experience is with consumer goods but it’s clear that the expectations they have with these games is not inline with others.

Obtena.7952:

Are you implying people can’t continue to enjoy the game because they cling to academic paradigms? I don’t know what specific people’s experience is with consumer goods but it’s clear that the expectations they have with these games is not inline with others.

But are they purely academic paradigms? They seem pretty practical to me. Directly impactful (for some at least).

There will be, for some people, a real impact of how some game changes affect their fun and enjoyment and they have already the sense to leave it if the impact was really that big for them.

Frankly, I find many of the points people make regarding some of the game changes are overblown and sensational. For instance, people complained about Ascended being introduced being a ‘grind’ and ‘breaking promises’. Does that really affect a person’s ability to be successful in the game? Other than the highest level fractals, is there anywhere else you NEED Ascended gear for fun/completion? No, there isn’t.

That’s just one example, but it’s all the same. Some guy complains that he can’t play HIS way, like it was even a reasonable expectation for Anet to implement EVERY way that the game could be played to satisfy that misinterpreted idea of “play how you want” in the first place. Really disingenuous stuff floating around here.

The whole premise of this thread is a joke: Whole new level of grind? I don’t see it … it’s the same amount of work to get Ascended gear post HoT as it is now … and it’s STILL not a barrier to content.

Obtena.7952:

For instance, people complained about Ascended being introduced being a ‘grind’ and ‘breaking promises’. Does that really affect a person’s ability to be successful in the game?

Is there any success, in a game, that matters more than playing and having fun?

If the quality of one’s play is lessened and the fun to be derived is lessened then yes the ability to be successful may have been impacted.

It’s all sensationalized nonsense really. There is absolutely zero chance there won’t be raid groups being formed purely around exotic gear. The community is weird like that, heck I won’t be surprised if players start messing around with RARE level 80 gear just because they can.

This game from its inception has done nothing but promote cooperation rather than competition in its PvE content. Everyone wants the same loot in the end, and groups are going to be made with both the ‘strictest’ gear sets asked for, the most relaxed gear sets asked for, etc. All these issues about ‘Grind’ or ‘Raid Rewards’ are a community situation we will address when the time comes.

Given the current state of the game though, with many friendly guilds both small and large, I don’t see a switch flipping on in every single person to be an absolute kitten to each other. There’s no way that will happen. The senseless paranoia here just needs to stop.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

For instance, people complained about Ascended being introduced being a ‘grind’ and ‘breaking promises’. Does that really affect a person’s ability to be successful in the game?

Is there any success, in a game, that matters more than playing and having fun?

If the quality of one’s play is lessened and the fun to be derived is lessened then yes the ability to be successful may have been impacted.

That’s exactly my point … if success is about playing, having fun, how is something you don’t need to do or something you can get THROUGH having fund and playing be an issue? In the cases where it is an issue, success is NOT about having fun or playing; it’s about getting a particular conglomeration of pixels and text.

Well once you take away the unique rewards of content, to me, you are taking away my fun, and i’m 100% sure that there are many people that think the same way as i do.

Ok, that’s fine. Can’t please everyone.

Other than the highest level fractals, is there anywhere else you NEED Ascended gear for fun/completion? No, there isn’t.

Raids, supposedly, and ANet seems to be moving towards Fractals and raiding as their higher end content, hence the renewed concern.

It’s all sensationalized nonsense really. There is absolutely zero chance there won’t be raid groups being formed purely around exotic gear. The community is weird like that, heck I won’t be surprised if players start messing around with RARE level 80 gear just because they can.

Well sure, but these groups will likely be based around people that already have Ascended and just want to show off by doing without. They aren’t likely to bring in players that don’t actually have the stuff, because they will be focused on above average skill levels. Basically, the ones that need that option the most aren’t likely to get it.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, that’s fine. Can’t please everyone.

Doesn’t this same line apply to you too? If you realize this, why are you here saying what you are saying?

Other than the highest level fractals, is there anywhere else you NEED Ascended gear for fun/completion? No, there isn’t.

Raids, supposedly, and ANet seems to be moving towards Fractals and raiding as their higher end content, hence the renewed concern.

But I thought you said you have zero intrest in doing raids? How does the “need” for ascended gear affect you? And if it does somehow, that need is arbitrary. Unless you are pugging the raid (I highly advise against this), then just find friendly friends who are willing to run with exotics in the group.

After I get what I need out of the raids, I personally would not mind “carrying” said people through them.

It’s all sensationalized nonsense really. There is absolutely zero chance there won’t be raid groups being formed purely around exotic gear. The community is weird like that, heck I won’t be surprised if players start messing around with RARE level 80 gear just because they can.

Well sure, but these groups will likely be based around people that already have Ascended and just want to show off by doing without. They aren’t likely to bring in players that don’t actually have the stuff, because they will be focused on above average skill levels. Basically, the ones that need that option the most aren’t likely to get it.

This is an assumption, really. And it seems you plan to pug through these — again, I advise against this. I am only going to pug these when I am looking to assist others who have only been in a position to pug (guildless). If you are guildless or are in a guild that is not PvE focused, then I would highly recommend finding a friendly guild who is. This is an MMO after all. It is nice to connect with others

Doesn’t this same line apply to you too? If you realize this, why are you here saying what you are saying?

Yeah, and as I said, if it’s just me, if I’m the only one that cares, then definitely don’t do it. I won’t mind. I’m confident, however, that there are more people that would prefer to not have to run content that they do not enjoy, than there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content that they hate. Ultimately, you can’t please everyone, so you have to aim at pleasing as many people as you can. You’re inevitably going to lose at least a few of them along the way.

But I thought you said you have zero intrest in doing raids? How does the “need” for ascended gear affect you?

Funny that you remember that about me, but forget the other thing that I inevitably say in the same paragraph, that while I don’t want to do raids, at least not more than once or twice, if they lock specific rewards behind raids then I’m going to have to do them regardless of whether I enjoy it or not.

I totally agree with you though, the ideal situation would be one in which people who don’t enjoy raiding would have absolutely no reason to set foot inside one, and could pursue their fun elsewhere without abandoning any rewards they might want.

Unless you are pugging the raid (I highly advise against this), then just find friendly friends who are willing to run with exotics in the group.

But even then, if I’m playing with friends and they have Ascended, and I don’t, then I’m definitely doing less than I could, I’m holding the group back a bit, and that’s not fair to them, especially if failure is possible. I mean, in a current dungeon, it’s no big deal if you run in wearing Rares, maybe the dungeon takes a minute or two more because your DPS is weak, but everyone still gets their reward. If your weakness could actually make the difference between everyone getting a prize and everyone going home sad, well you’d have to be a real jerk to bring anything less than your A-game.

And if everyone has exotics, then that makes the chances of success even less, and statistically, those who don’t have ascended would likely be the ones most in need of that 15% cushion.

Razor.9872:

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, that’s fine. Can’t please everyone.

Doesn’t this same line apply to you too? If you realize this, why are you here saying what you are saying?

Well, when someone reduces my choice to “either you or me” it’s rather obvious i’d pick me. Everyone else in this thread would do the same.

Razor.9872:

But I thought you said you have zero intrest in doing raids? How does the “need” for ascended gear affect you?

Because, while i’m not interested in raids, i am interested in rewards locked beyond raids.
I mean, having to get through that unpleasentness that raids are shaping to be will be bad enough. Needing to grind for the ascended gear for it just adds insult to the injury.

Ohoni.6057:

That would be an even larger betrayal of the players’ trust than the release of Ascended weapons. I would expect that ANet releasing a higher tier of gearing would result in magnitudes more rage-quits than if they gave everyone free Legendaries.
Feeling value in the “evergreen” status of Legendaries only comes with a lack of faith in ANet’s promise to not raise the gear tier further.

If it happened once – I wouldn’t put it past them to do it again – and the backlash might be less severe than we might expect.
A lot of people that were heavily opposed to this idea quit when Ascended happened.

I think it’s possible to have solid profits without going to the dark side. You don’t need to embrace evil to be successful.

But if being evil brings more profits you really have no reason not to be. I mean – it’s all money after all.

Of course, nobody’s downplaying the work that they put in, but the distinction is, if a craftsman spends hundreds of hours making a watch, then only one person can have it. Conversely, if an ANet artist spends hundreds of hours working on a Legendary weapon, then one person could have it, or ten, or a thousand, or a million, and it makes no difference in the time spent making it. If that item can make a million people happy rather than just a hundred, then why shouldn’kitten

Because people are used to the old status quo of things – and if items are scarce – even digital ones – they will be willing to invest heavily to get them.
They’re used to this mentality from real life – where things work like in your watch example.

Let’s not forget the ultimate goal of this game is profit not people’s happiness.

The idea here is not to deliver happiness to people but rather to have them endlessly chase for it in your game – give it to them in small bite-sized chunks – constantly keeping them hooked and spending time and money for their next “fix”.

And it’s “evil.”

And it makes money – it made me buy a finisher when I didn’t really need to.

Sure, but nobody benefits if that is a lie, if the feeling of “that’s where it’s at” diffuses about an area that nobody actually likes. What benefits the game is if the most number of people are HAVING FUN, not if they’ve been lured into an activity that they do not enjoy. You keep giving reasons of how their behavior is beneficial to raids, as an activity, not in why benefiting raids would actually benefit players.

it doesn’t really matter if they like it or not – I’ll argue a lot of people on the gear grind in WoW hate it – but they do it. They do it because they want their “fix” that comes at the end.

Having fun is beneficial – but you can get people hooked – and once you do you can make them spend more time and more money in order for them to have their fun.
Once you get a stable thing going you can portion off the fun and tax people’s access to it.

I do not believe the goal of any commercial entity that is making a living off selling a product is my benefit – their goal – their reason for existence is their benefit – their share holders – their jobs and ultimately their well being – as employees.
There’s nothing wrong with that either – and I don’t hold it against anyone – it’s just how people and businesses run by people operate.

Yes, which is great for people that want to do that content, but not great for those who would rather be doing something else. Why should those players make themselves available at the whims of those who enjoy raiding?

Because the game is designed in such a way that it baits them into it.

Developers should not be “promoting a certain activity.” Rather, they should figure out what activities the players actually enjoy, and work to develop those activities, whatever they might be. If players tend to avoid a given activity, the solution is not to try and bribe or trick them into it, the solution is to figure out why they don’t enjoy the activity, and if it’s possible to fix that problem (like by making Fractals shorter to run) then they can do that, and if the problem is impossible to fix, then they should just abandon that activity and spend their time on more popular ones.

Developers are part of a business – and all businesses try to be efficient.
The activity you want to promote is the one that you can get the highest amount of players playing with the least amount of development time required to create.
After that – it’s just a matter of finding means to get other players ( who don’t want to participate in that activity) to get on board regardless – by coaxing, bribing – or whatnot.

It just makes economic sense.

I know in an ideal world you’d make what people want – but ultimately it might be easier just to make people want what you’re making – and make it easier on yourself.

Ideally they would spend more time balancing out reward systems so that there is no “best farm” by any significant margin. Obviously there will always be something slightly more efficient than the others, but the difference should be so negligible that nobody would bother with activities that they did not enjoy, or see reason not to do the stuff they did enjoy.

But that’s really impossible – because people enjoy thing of variable degrees of difficulty – so the best farm will become that farm which gives the same rewards but with significantly lower effort.

Farm is always determined by time and effort in vs gold out. If gold out is equal then time and effort become the determining factor.

My case for example – I’ve abandoned dungeons in favor of The Silverwastes because it offers an equivalent amount of gold per time spent and on top of that I can watch a show while I do SW on another monitor since it’s that easy.

Yeah, but then you get into the problem that if it takes that long, then more casual players are on the treadmill way too long, and you have too many players who are “playing for the loot” well after their enjoyment of the activity has worn off. People playing just because they enjoy it should be plenty of time to “pay off the work” on the activity, and if it’s not, then they either should have made the activity more fun, or spent less time on it.

As long as they keep playing it doesn’t really matter what keeps them going – but loot is a cheaper way of keeping people playing.
It takes less to create one item and create the feeling that this is the “ultimate thing” than to create new content.

And that’s why it’s the developer’s responsibility to encourage better, to reject players that only think about themselves.

The developers aren’t the founding fathers of the new utopia – they are part of a business that wants to make money – they have no responsibility other than their responsibility to the people that employ them.

They’re not here to form and shape us into this or that – just to take our money and sell us a product/service.

Sure, demand would increase if demand would increase, but that’s not what we were talking about. I’m saying that demand would not increase just because supply fell, that if it became much more rare and “exclusive,” I don’t believe player demand would rise significantly.

Because already a lot of people have the Incinerator – if however their incinerators vanished – and the item became rare again – that’s what I’m trying to say.
It doesn’t matter how things go now because already a lot of people have it.

If someone asks a waiter for a glass of water, and the waiter brings a hose and funnel and pours a gallon of water into the customer’s mouth, does the customer have no right to feel that he did not get what he asked for? The methods currently proposed seem on the right track for what people were asking for, but it seems to miss the spirit of what people were asking for.

I get what you’re saying – but I think neither of us knows how much water people asked for and how much water is being given now.
I also don’t really think people know how much water they wanted to begin with.

Ohoni.6057:

i’m not going to sit here and advocate gw2 as a grind-free game, but to label it grindy? did you just start playing mmos this year? gw2 is a vacation on a beach compared to silkroad

The measure is not of how it compared to the competition, but rather in how it compares to the ideal. Other games might do things worse, that does not mean that GW2 always does it as well as it could.

This here is your problem – you’re idealistic – ideals don’t really matter – what matters is the competition because ultimately people will play your game or other games.
You must make a game better than other games – not an ideal game – because the ideal game doesn’t exist – it doesn’t compete with your for customers.
As long as you’re better than other games you’ll have the customers – regardless of whether your game is ideal, good or even bad.

You just have to be the best alternative. Doesn’t matter if that alternative is still good or bad as long as people need your product and yours is the best.

If it happened once – I wouldn’t put it past them to do it again – and the backlash might be less severe than we might expect.
A lot of people that were heavily opposed to this idea quit when Ascended happened.

Oh, I wouldn’t count on the community getting it out of their system. Ascended gear was only palatable because of how minimal and pointless it was at the time. I really don’t think GW2 is ready for a more active treadmill.

But if being evil brings more profits you really have no reason not to be. I mean – it’s all money after all.

If that were true then ANet would be making mobile games. You literally cannot make more money on a PC MMO in the current market than you can off of a little “moving things around in a box with goofy animations” game on a phone.

Still though, you can make good profits while not being evil, and you get longer term customer retention.

Let’s not forget the ultimate goal of this game is profit not people’s happiness.

But again, the way this game is modeled, the two largely go hand in hand. The profit by making players most likely to buy things in the gem store, and short of strong-arming them into it, which ANet avoids, the best way is to make them happy enough that they will happily part with their money because they know it’s going to a good cause. A tolerating customer might pay for things he needs to get by (of which there are few in GW2), while a happy customer will pay for things that he is casually interested in, “just because.”

it doesn’t really matter if they like it or not – I’ll argue a lot of people on the gear grind in WoW hate it – but they do it. They do it because they want their “fix” that comes at the end.

Yeah, except WoW’s business model is entirely different than ANet’s. They profit directly off of each customer that does not cancel his subscription, while a GW2 player can begrudgingly put up with the grind for years and not pay ANet a dime unless they want to.

But that’s really impossible – because people enjoy thing of variable degrees of difficulty – so the best farm will become that farm which gives the same rewards but with significantly lower effort.

But if it’s balanced well, then the higher the difficulty you’re capable of, the more gold you can get per hour by doing the higher difficulty content and it being as easy for you as the lower difficulty (and reward) content is for a less skilled player.

This here is your problem – you’re idealistic – ideals don’t really matter – what matters is the competition because ultimately people will play your game or other games.
You must make a game better than other games – not an ideal game – because the ideal game doesn’t exist – it doesn’t compete with your for customers.
As long as you’re better than other games you’ll have the customers – regardless of whether your game is ideal, good or even bad.

You just have to be the best alternative. Doesn’t matter if that alternative is still good or bad as long as people need your product and yours is the best.

I really do hope that the devs read your responses here, not because I agree with you, but just because if any of them may have been thinking along the same lines without knowing exactly why, they would read the brutality of your words and be horrified at what they’d almost done. It’s like “scared straight” for game devs.

MyriadStars.5679:

The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.

That is, people are unhappy that Anet failed their legendary “quest” of designing a MMORPG without grinding.

The fact that there are grindy stuff in some other games is totally irrelevant. Anet tried to avoid grindy stuff and then gave up in the xpac, and that’s it. Of course there are people who are happy about Anet’s failure because they like grindy stuff, while others will be unhappy.

I don’t think anyone can argue about this.

I can argue about it. Because I have a different definition fo grind. Doing a bunch of different things to level something up was never a grind to me. I don’t subscribe to that definition of grind. The problem is the word itself has come to take on something than the original meaning.

Even Wikipedia emphasizes the original definition of grind. Grinding always referred to killing mobs over and over again to level, as opposed to having quests. For example, when Aion came out, there weren’t enough quests and we had to grind mobs to level high enough to get to the next area. A lot of games were like that.

The definition of the word has changed but I don’t think that Anet said that there would be no grind in the modern sense of the word, which is a very different thing.

You can’t really argue about grind until you define it, but not everyone goes by the same definition. I’ve not seen anything in the expansion I’d consider a grind, but the closest thing to me would be raiding, if we had to do the same raid over and over again to get something specific. That I would consider a grind, because I’d have no options.

Harper.4173:

Ohoni.6057:

i’m not going to sit here and advocate gw2 as a grind-free game, but to label it grindy? did you just start playing mmos this year? gw2 is a vacation on a beach compared to silkroad

The measure is not of how it compared to the competition, but rather in how it compares to the ideal. Other games might do things worse, that does not mean that GW2 always does it as well as it could.

This here is your problem – you’re idealistic – ideals don’t really matter – what matters is the competition because ultimately people will play your game or other games.
You must make a game better than other games – not an ideal game – because the ideal game doesn’t exist – it doesn’t compete with your for customers.
As long as you’re better than other games you’ll have the customers – regardless of whether your game is ideal, good or even bad.

You just have to be the best alternative. Doesn’t matter if that alternative is still good or bad as long as people need your product and yours is the best.

It’s not simply idealistic.
If gw2 manages to keep people ingame being at the same time non-grindy non-BiS non wow-clone , it’s all in devs/anet/money interest.
Indeed, it’s the only reason the game sold at the very beginning: DIFFERENT.
And it sold MANY, MANY copies.

probably they don’t want to take the risk to cater to a potentially smaller population of users, as another consistent part of players just will play the traditional mmo?

maybe why those people who bought the game initially, then quitted for boredom?

As astralporing said, I’m sure that many players quitting after launch is a natural process, independent from grind-nongrind-long term goals.
Independently from launch of ascended to “rescue” some users back.
and lost many other because of ascended, not for its absence.
Shifting to BiS elitism is not mandatory. Sure we don’t know all the numbers and statistics, obviously anet did the best for their finances.
The only thing hurting me is that gw2 pretended and STILL pretends to be different, while it isn’t.
“don’t kitten on my leg and tell me its raining” .
and no, it’s not the necessary way. It is the easiest, though.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really argue about grind until you define it, but not everyone goes by the same definition. I’ve not seen anything in the expansion I’d consider a grind, but the closest thing to me would be raiding, if we had to do the same raid over and over again to get something specific. That I would consider a grind, because I’d have no options.

Many players are calling the mastery system a “grind”. I think a definition that comes often is, repeating content so I can then go do what I enjoy, like grind exp to level up gliding so you can fly around the world. I can’t say I agree with that definition but from what I read, that’s one often given.

As for the raid, if we have to do the raid over and over until we get one reward then it would be terrible, but I think they’ve added a lot of rewards in the Raid, so you won’t be repeating the same content for one reward, but multiple ones.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really argue about grind until you define it, but not everyone goes by the same definition. I’ve not seen anything in the expansion I’d consider a grind, but the closest thing to me would be raiding, if we had to do the same raid over and over again to get something specific. That I would consider a grind, because I’d have no options.

Many players are calling the mastery system a “grind”. I think a definition that comes often is, repeating content so I can then go do what I enjoy, like grind exp to level up gliding so you can fly around the world. I can’t say I agree with that definition but from what I read, that’s one often given.

As for the raid, if we have to do the raid over and over until we get one reward then it would be terrible, but I think they’ve added a lot of rewards in the Raid, so you won’t be repeating the same content for one reward, but multiple ones.

See to me, because everything gives experience, leveling masteries isn’t a grind, because I’m not going to grind. I’m going to play the game. Parts of the game will indeed be hidden until certain masteries are unlocked, but I’m still not going to grind it. I’m going to play the game. Since everything gives experience, by playing the game, eventually those things will be unlocked.

I’m sure you can grind them, as a verb, but that doesn’t make it a grind as a noun.

It’s like the dungeon master title. I didn’t grind it out. I didn’t run out and do every dungeon path. I took my time, did dungeons as I felt like it, and eventually I had a couple of dungeon paths left and did those. There are people who grinded out the title, just to get it.

There’s a big difference between grinding something out as the way you do it and something being a grind with a capital G.

Ohoni.6057:

Oh, I wouldn’t count on the community getting it out of their system. Ascended gear was only palatable because of how minimal and pointless it was at the time. I really don’t think GW2 is ready for a more active treadmill.

I truly hope so.

If that were true then ANet would be making mobile games. You literally cannot make more money on a PC MMO in the current market than you can off of a little “moving things around in a box with goofy animations” game on a phone.
Still though, you can make good profits while not being evil, and you get longer term customer retention.

I’m sure that there are more factors at play than wanting to do it – such as being able to- having the right backing, the right type of programmers and other resources.
I doubt it’s as easy as wanting to do it – if that were true all companies would provide only the most profitable services.
Real life is complex – and there’s more to reorienting your business than wanting to.

The trick with retention is being as evil as you can be without being perceived as evil – and I would dare say most GW2 players ( as most humans in general) are blind to many issues the game has simply because they’re not “in-tune” enough.

Let’s not kid ourselves -only a few post on the forums. The vast silent majority plays on without even bothering with discussing things about the game. They’re the ones you evaluate through metrics and change the game in order to tax better.

But again, the way this game is modeled, the two largely go hand in hand. The profit by making players most likely to buy things in the gem store, and short of strong-arming them into it, which ANet avoids, the best way is to make them happy enough that they will happily part with their money because they know it’s going to a good cause. A tolerating customer might pay for things he needs to get by (of which there are few in GW2), while a happy customer will pay for things that he is casually interested in, “just because.”

Largely – yes.
People largely don’t spend their money because “it’s going to a good cause” they spend it if they want what you’re selling. And sometimes Anet does things like the recent finisher sale move – which is obviously a bit more than “making things people enjoy and selling them”.

Let’s not forget that not every player that plays GW2 has cash to spend on the gem store – however if things are gated – sooner or later you’ll have to pay. And if people accept this they will.
Happy isn’t the best way to make people play – because one would argue that if someone is happy and satisfied with the current state he has little incentive to spend since he’s already happy to begin with.

Ultimately all human consumption must be driven by a need – a real or fictional need – they both serve the same purpose as long as they’re perceived as real.

Yeah, except WoW’s business model is entirely different than ANet’s. They profit directly off of each customer that does not cancel his subscription, while a GW2 player can begrudgingly put up with the grind for years and not pay ANet a dime unless they want to.

And even so by simply playing (I’ve stated this before) they are supporting the game.
People in GW2 also have “fixes” that you can use to sway them – let’s not forget that while different the two populations aren’t that different.
By just keeping you playing they maximize their chances that at one point they’ll make you pay – by adding something you like or something you need.

But if it’s balanced well, then the higher the difficulty you’re capable of, the more gold you can get per hour by doing the higher difficulty content and it being as easy for you as the lower difficulty (and reward) content is for a less skilled player.

I don’t get this.

What you’re saying is that I can make more gold by playing higher difficulty content – but at the same time a lot of people are against high-skill farms that reward players that do them more – and Anet hasn’t implemented this directly yet.

The idea here is relative difficulty.

Why would I do more difficult content ( even though it’s easy for me) when i could do the easiest content with the least amount of effort -maybe just clicking once or twice ( provided they reward about the same).
Unless of course you plan on implementing reward based on content difficulty – which would get all the casual and average players up in arms because it’s unfair.

In a sense I’m saying : why would I do more if I could do less and receive just as much.

I really do hope that the devs read your responses here, not because I agree with you, but just because if any of them may have been thinking along the same lines without knowing exactly why, they would read the brutality of your words and be horrified at what they’d almost done. It’s like “scared straight” for game devs.

It’s nice to see that even as a negative role-model and boogeyman I can still be useful.

Still – it’s not the devs that matter here – usually it’s not them that do the things I described – it’s the publishers and people who call the shots from a financial point of view.
And trust me – for those people what I wrote stands true – it’s basically a page out of their instruction manual since ultimately it’s their job to “take your money” as fast as easily and with as little risk as possible.

Kevan.8912:

Harper.4173:

Ohoni.6057:

i’m not going to sit here and advocate gw2 as a grind-free game, but to label it grindy? did you just start playing mmos this year? gw2 is a vacation on a beach compared to silkroad

The measure is not of how it compared to the competition, but rather in how it compares to the ideal. Other games might do things worse, that does not mean that GW2 always does it as well as it could.

This here is your problem – you’re idealistic – ideals don’t really matter – what matters is the competition because ultimately people will play your game or other games.
You must make a game better than other games – not an ideal game – because the ideal game doesn’t exist – it doesn’t compete with your for customers.
As long as you’re better than other games you’ll have the customers – regardless of whether your game is ideal, good or even bad.

You just have to be the best alternative. Doesn’t matter if that alternative is still good or bad as long as people need your product and yours is the best.

It’s not simply idealistic.
If gw2 manages to keep people ingame being at the same time non-grindy non-BiS non wow-clone , it’s all in devs/anet/money interest.
Indeed, it’s the only reason the game sold at the very beginning: DIFFERENT.
And it sold MANY, MANY copies.

probably they don’t want to take the risk to cater to a potentially smaller population of users, as another consistent part of players just will play the traditional mmo?

maybe why those people who bought the game initially, then quitted for boredom?

As astralporing said, I’m sure that many players quitting after launch is a natural process, independent from grind-nongrind-long term goals.
Independently from launch of ascended to “rescue” some users back.
and lost many other because of ascended, not for its absence.
Shifting to BiS elitism is not mandatory. Sure we don’t know all the numbers and statistics, obviously anet did the best for their finances.
The only thing hurting me is that gw2 pretended and STILL pretends to be different, while it isn’t.
“don’t kitten on my leg and tell me its raining” .
and no, it’s not the necessary way. It is the easiest, though.

The problem is that we don’t have numbers – we can’t know for sure if Anet lost more because of Ascended or kept more interested in the game long term because of it.

You can’t know if more people joined the game because of a longer-term goal.

We don’t have the metrics – just pure speculation. What I presented there was just a general principle – do better than the competition and if there’s a demand for products such as the one you make you’ll be fine.
You don’t need to do it perfect – just good enough to sell.

Easiest is often best – because you have to balance effort in with your gains – and that difference is what matters.
Sometimes it’s better to get less with minimal effort than a more with a whole lot of effort – it’s all in the numbers really.

Derenek.8931:

We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.

What is the equivalent value of 50 dollars though? Is it having 5 playable races? is it 8 professions? is it 25 maps?

The witcher 3 has 1 playable race, 1 playable profession and 4 maps. does that mean its worth about $8?

its not that straight forward to judge the value of a digital product. Sure witcher 3 has just 4 maps but those 4 maps may have taken more work to create then the 25 core maps we have. But back to heart of torns, there are 4 PvE maps that are huge much bigger then old maps. Did it take engine changes to make that possible? If so how much man hours did it take? The map itself is only part of the equation, what about dynamic events? how many are there? these maps have far more surface areas and changes based on time of day, they could potentially require a lot more time to develop. What about modelling? didnt see any of the other maps but the ammount of stuff in verdant brink is incredible, if anything the map is in places too busy.

But anyway I digressed, what I am trying to say is the value of something isnt just an exercise of simply comparing quantity. A game with 256 maps like pacman doesnt necessary cost more then a game with 25 maps or 4 maps. There is a ton we players dont get to see that goes on in the backend. I dont know if you watched the last episode of guild chat. They explained it takes them 1 entire month to fully develop one legendary weapon. One complained I heard a lot was ohh we only get 3 legendaries in HoT. Yeah sure but thats ignoring the other 21 legendaries they still had to work on 1 month each to get into the new precursor crafting system. We see it just 3 legendaries but in truth its about 24 months for them or nearly 2 years of work.

We should be so hasty in judging how much HoT is worth.

Ohoni.6057:

i’m not going to sit here and advocate gw2 as a grind-free game, but to label it grindy? did you just start playing mmos this year? gw2 is a vacation on a beach compared to silkroad

The measure is not of how it compared to the competition, but rather in how it compares to the ideal. Other games might do things worse, that does not mean that GW2 always does it as well as it could.

whats the ideal? is the ideal to beat a champion and you get a guaranteed drop of a box that lets you choose the legendary you want? that would kill the game. If it takes Anet 2 – 3 years to create an expansion, they need to keep us 2 – 3 years busy. What makes something grindy or not isnt the length of time it takes to earn it, its the gameplay necessary to earn it.

So okey lets say we need to earn all maguuma masteries to get to the legendaries. Thats 68m xp, fine. Some one said thats 4000 events.. No.. This is Gw2 everything gives you XP.. Events, adventures, Raids, Personal Story, Living story episodes, dailies whatever. Think about it, how many levels do you earn everytime you play the game… 2? 3? It doesnt take 4000 events to earn full masteries on all your characters it takes about 135 days – 90 days (well more like play sessions to be fair, not everyone can play every day) But guess what? its not like everything to craft your legendary will be locked behind those masteries, you can work towards them at the same time you’re unlocking your masteries too. Thats the beauty of this system, whatever you feel like doing will most likely get you closer to your target. Yes its a long term target and that puts off some people but hey everything has a cost. We didnt want a vertical progression system where they can keep us busy by giving us items with better stats that we’ll always be needing? the price for that is they have to keep us busy some other way or in this case by providing us long term items.

So back to your statement… what is ideal? In my opinion ideal is exactly what they did. It takes a big effort to get a legendary but I can go about it any way I feel. I want to raid.. cool that gets you closer. I want to do events sure go for it. I want to try the personal story on a different alt, an evil sylvari perhaps… Sure you’re now that much closer. Its not grindy because there is nothing I have to repeat over and over again. I can mix and match and do what I feel like doing. All you need to do is not rush it. it takes 1 year to earn nevermore, no problem I am not loosing anything in between and nevermore or no nevermore I would still be spending that year playing exactly the same content so its all good.

As for the raid, if we have to do the raid over and over until we get one reward then it would be terrible, but I think they’ve added a lot of rewards in the Raid, so you won’t be repeating the same content for one reward, but multiple ones.

That. . . makes it worse, not better. . .

See to me, because everything gives experience, leveling masteries isn’t a grind, because I’m not going to grind. I’m going to play the game. Parts of the game will indeed be hidden until certain masteries are unlocked, but I’m still not going to grind it.

Playing BWE3 made that impossible to believe for me. The map was just such a torture without having both glide and Bouncing Mushrooms, and I can’t imagine what later areas would be like without the various other traversal skills. That’s why I’m hoping that the XP rewards in live will be WAY better than they were in BWE3. I definitely would want them to shift the mastery unlocks so that the core traversal elements unlock a lot faster than in BWE3, the more optional stuff can progress slower, but we should have all the traversal done within a week or so.

It’s like the dungeon master title. I didn’t grind it out. I didn’t run out and do every dungeon path. I took my time, did dungeons as I felt like it, and eventually I had a couple of dungeon paths left and did those. There are people who grinded out the title, just to get it.

And when it’s just a title, that’s fine, but when it’s a tangible reward, especially one that you need to unlock before unlocking something even better, then players will want to go for it ASAP.

People largely don’t spend their money because “it’s going to a good cause” they spend it if they want what you’re selling. And sometimes Anet does things like the recent finisher sale move – which is obviously a bit more than “making things people enjoy and selling them”.

But again, players don’t need new finishers. They might not spend money on a finisher that they don’t want, but they also might not spend money on a finisher that they do want if they are generally disgruntled about the game. If they are in a good mindspace, enjoying the game and planning to enjoy more, then they’re more likely to go “hey, why not?” They might not view it as a donation, but on some level it is.

What you’re saying is that I can make more gold by playing higher difficulty content – but at the same time a lot of people are against high-skill farms that reward players that do them more – and Anet hasn’t implemented this directly yet.

Again, it’s about balance. Higher skill activities should not reward WAY more than slightly lower skill content, which is what higher skill players tend to want. You shouldn’t have, say, world bosses that reward 5g per hour and then a raid or something that rewards 50g per hour or anything like that. But you certainly can have a raid that would reward perhaps 7-9g per hour relative to the world bosses 5, enough that players would make more doing that activity if they can, but not so much more that other activities become worthless.

Why would I do more difficult content ( even though it’s easy for me) when i could do the easiest content with the least amount of effort -maybe just clicking once or twice ( provided they reward about the same).

Presumably because you enjoy it more. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine too.

In a sense I’m saying : why would I do more if I could do less and receive just as much.

Entirely up to you, it shouldn’t be the game’s problem.

whats the ideal? is the ideal to beat a champion and you get a guaranteed drop of a box that lets you choose the legendary you want? that would kill the game.

Only if the champ is made of straw, like yours.

So okey lets say we need to earn all maguuma masteries to get to the legendaries. Thats 68m xp, fine. Some one said thats 4000 events.. No.. This is Gw2 everything gives you XP.. Events, adventures, Raids, Personal Story, Living story episodes, dailies whatever.

Keep in mind that you only earn Maguuma Mastery from doing content in the new area, so many of the things that currently award XP will not count. I’m hopeful that there will be more methods of earning XP than during BWE1-3, but it’s not a given. One thing that occurred to me the other night was that I was running Frozen Maw for the daily, and that was a chain of six events in a row that took about 5-10 minutes total. That many events in BWE3 would have taken the better part of an hour.

So back to your statement… what is ideal? In my opinion ideal is exactly what they did. It takes a big effort to get a legendary but I can go about it any way I feel. I want to raid.. cool that gets you closer. I want to do events sure go for it. I want to try the personal story on a different alt, an evil sylvari perhaps… Sure you’re now that much closer.

And that sounds good, unless you get to “I don’t want to do a raid? Well then you’re never going to get the Legendary.” There needs to be flexibility.

If anything in gw2 is grind I’d hate to see the people with that opinion play any other MMORPG. XD

Presumably because you enjoy it more. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine too.

No one enjoys difficult things without something of value added to it. We call people who do enjoy such difficult activities without any tangible reward masochists and I can safely assume the overwhelming vast majority of players in GW2 are not masochists.

There are other games catered to those individuals. Just as there are other games catered towards rewarding everything through any activity.

Back to the issue at hand, I cannot see how people can perceive things like Masteries as a grind, when it is flexible in what you can level up first, how you can level up the mastery, and where you can level it up in (at least within the Magumma Jungle, but I like to believe people won’t get all crazy about not leveling their gliding while doing Core game map completion on a level 80).

Just when Arenanet finally adds some substantial end-game content do players not want it any longer.

Ohoni.6057:

And that sounds good, unless you get to “I don’t want to do a raid? Well then you’re never going to get the Legendary.” There needs to be flexibility.

No, you haven’t made any good point to why there needs to be flexibility. You need to play the game to get the reward.

Only if the champ is made of straw, like yours.

You said this as if you have came up with anything better than straws.

You haven’t made any specific recommendation to what you think is good alternatives.

Ohoni.6057:

Presumably because you enjoy it more. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine too.

You don’t need to do raids and not get the legendary armor and that’s fine too.

good alternatives? what the game promised at the launch.
cosmetic grind, no grind for the BiS, just story, living story and events.

just make ascended tradeable, much more common as drops…and leave legendaries as is it now, no matter as it’s a skin.
This is the only thing I would accept.
Until that moment..no gw2 nor any other mmo.

Kevan.8912:

good alternatives? what the game promised at the launch.
cosmetic grind, no grind for the BiS, just story, living story and events.

just make ascended tradeable, much more common as drops…and leave legendaries as is it now, no matter as it’s a skin.
This is the only thing I would accept.
Until that moment..no gw2 nor any other mmo.

Grinding for legendaries is also grinding for BIS.

Same stats as ascended, I think.
if ascended were readily available, legendaries would be beautiful skins and nice QoL improvement..but nothing more. So more cosmetic than necessary grind.
IMHO, obviously.

i don’t care of grind for status symbols titles skins and so on.
what I can’t stand in gw2 is to be numerically disadvantaged, even just that 5% (or much more in agony res) so a part of game is precluded…such as masteries.
but masteries is still good, just play as you want and unlock everything, maybe slowly.
Fractals and ar..and now the elitism that is going to start with raids is what absolutely dislike..and that caused my ragequit/ no buy expansion.

Kevan.8912:

good alternatives? what the game promised at the launch.
cosmetic grind, no grind for the BiS, just story, living story and events.

just make ascended tradeable, much more common as drops…and leave legendaries as is it now, no matter as it’s a skin.
This is the only thing I would accept.
Until that moment..no gw2 nor any other mmo.

Game even at launch had full dungeon skins behind massive token grind.
The game is still entirely cosmetic, BiS ‘grind’ if there was one is entirely subjective, and I hope they improve more than ‘just story, living story and events’ like WvW, SPvP, End-game PvE content.

Ascended being ‘tradable’ would break its own components market as well as render crafting useless given the amount of current crafters out there capable of supplying the same product. I can see more common ascended drops in certain instances, and I am not sure what you mean by leave legendaries as it were, but I assume you mean keep what HoT is bringing and that is Legendary Crafting.

GW2 is probably the closest thing to a non-grindy MMO you will find out there, while still able to sustain a profitable business model that has players playing. Asking for more universal rewards quickly leads to less playtime spent per player, less spent money per player and thus a negative revenue game.

Don’t care if it’s the least grindy in the market, if it generates income or not.
I chose gw2 and not other mmos for a reason.
Each customer has his preferences: no grind to have bis…and ascended is a huge grind for my playstyle.
At the beginning it was enjoyable, but the launch of ascended made me quit. This latter development of raids convinces me that it’s not what i desire to play, so coherently won’t buy neither gw2 nor other mmos.
maybe I’m the only one? or there are other people like me who bought gw2 thinking it would have been just cosmetic grind?
it’s the same. my conditions are the same.

edit: once again, no problem with grinding skins. i did it and enjoyed it.
i don t want to grind bis for weeks or months..and don t want to craft anything.
as it used to be at the beginning when i chose to play it.
the latter evolution caused me and other guildmates and friends to quit too.

CandyHearts.6025:

If anything in gw2 is grind I’d hate to see the people with that opinion play any other MMORPG. XD

SWTOR and WOW are less grindy than GW2.

morrolan.9608:

CandyHearts.6025:

If anything in gw2 is grind I’d hate to see the people with that opinion play any other MMORPG. XD

SWTOR and WOW are less grindy than GW2.

I won’t comment on the current state of WoW as I quit that game at the very end of WotLK.

However explain how SWTOR is less grindy than GW2? Do we want to talk about the Gear Treadmill? Weeklies and Dailies? Perhaps PvP commedations? Even some of the reputation cosmetics? Even with KotFE coming out, I don’t expect any sort of changes in this design.