Guild Wars 2

Kevan.8912:

good alternatives? what the game promised at the launch.
cosmetic grind, no grind for the BiS, just story, living story and events.

just make ascended tradeable, much more common as drops…and leave legendaries as is it now, no matter as it’s a skin.
This is the only thing I would accept.
Until that moment..no gw2 nor any other mmo.

Getting ascended (BiS) gear is not a grind. Only perceived grind. Just play for 2 months correctly and you get full ascended. Yes armor included.

Kevan.8912:

Don’t care if it’s the least grindy in the market, if it generates income or not.
I chose gw2 and not other mmos for a reason.
Each customer has his preferences: no grind to have bis…and ascended is a huge grind for my playstyle.
At the beginning it was enjoyable, but the launch of ascended made me quit. This latter development of raids convinces me that it’s not what i desire to play, so coherently won’t buy neither gw2 nor other mmos.
maybe I’m the only one? or there are other people like me who bought gw2 thinking it would have been just cosmetic grind?
it’s the same. my conditions are the same.

edit: once again, no problem with grinding skins. i did it and enjoyed it.
i don t want to grind bis for weeks or months..and don t want to craft anything.
as it used to be at the beginning when i chose to play it.
the latter evolution caused me and other guildmates and friends to quit too.

You log in once a day for one month for ascended amulet. Yes simply logging in. How is that a grind?

You do guild mission with your guild once a week for one month for both ascended trinkets. How is that a grind?

You do one fractal a day for about two weeks for both ascended rings? How is that a grind?

You spend 80g for an ascended weapon. How is that a grind?

The entitlement these days. People just need toughen up and actually play the game. It doesn’t promise to sell you BiS gear for free.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, and as I said, if it’s just me, if I’m the only one that cares, then definitely don’t do it. I won’t mind. I’m confident, however, that there are more people that would prefer to not have to run content that they do not enjoy, than there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content that they hate. Ultimately, you can’t please everyone, so you have to aim at pleasing as many people as you can. You’re inevitably going to lose at least a few of them along the way.

You say “that there are more people that would prefer to not have to run content that they do not enjoy, than there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content that they hate.” But I feel this is implying that there are only these 2 types of people and situations. First of all, there are plenty of people who prefer grinding for loot in content they enjoy. Second, I do not see raids as being something that is “grindy,” as they have a clear progression path where the only grind that could come in would be a result of the player(s) — not the content. Now, if you are in full exotic gear, and you are bent on believing that no one will accept you, and you can’t get over the feeling that you are hampering the people who have agreed with you running exotics in the first place, AND you want the rewards that raids provide in as short a time frame as possible — Then, yes, you would force yourself into a state of grinding. But otherwise, you could take as much time as you wanted getting a single set of ascended (not very hard with time and even just some trinkets and a weapon would do). Then it would only be a matter of time to practice the raid wings to become adept enough at them to get what you want. In the end, the only thing holding you back is you.

But I thought you said you have zero intrest in doing raids? How does the “need” for ascended gear affect you?

Funny that you remember that about me, but forget the other thing that I inevitably say in the same paragraph, that while I don’t want to do raids, at least not more than once or twice, if they lock specific rewards behind raids then I’m going to have to do them regardless of whether I enjoy it or not.

No, you are not going to have to do them. That is an arbitrary condition you are putting on yourself (bring condi-cleanse). It’s true, this content is not going to be a walk in the park; It’s going to take real effort to aquire what sits behind this challenge. But that is what makes said items truely valuable. It is finally a chance for the more elite (not to be confused with elitist) side of the community to be allowed to show their skill and commitment — not through grinding or wallet-dumping, but through real devotion to building skill.

I totally agree with you though, the ideal situation would be one in which people who don’t enjoy raiding would have absolutely no reason to set foot inside one, and could pursue their fun elsewhere without abandoning any rewards they might want.

I disagree with this, though. The base here is implying that the rewards that are “unobtainable” are necessary. In my opinion, legendary armor is largely a convenience — not a requirement. While the unique skins are pure flavor. Rewards such as these permiate Gw2. There are plenty of rewards that I wanted but didn’t get a chance to acquire (the Tequatl Wings and Tribal armor to name a couple). But I’m content with knowing that I just couldn’t get them. This all compounds on the possibility that Legendary armor could be obtainable through other means in the future. It may be the far future, but that is un-important considering the rewards just that too: unimportant.

Unless you are pugging the raid (I highly advise against this), then just find friendly friends who are willing to run with exotics in the group.

But even then, if I’m playing with friends and they have Ascended, and I don’t, then I’m definitely doing less than I could, I’m holding the group back a bit, and that’s not fair to them, especially if failure is possible. I mean, in a current dungeon, it’s no big deal if you run in wearing Rares, maybe the dungeon takes a minute or two more because your DPS is weak, but everyone still gets their reward. If your weakness could actually make the difference between everyone getting a prize and everyone going home sad, well you’d have to be a real jerk to bring anything less than your A-game.

And if everyone has exotics, then that makes the chances of success even less, and statistically, those who don’t have ascended would likely be the ones most in need of that 15% cushion.

Yes, it is true that having exotics could lead to your team’s failure. But since this group you made had agreed to running with exotics in the group to begin with, it is not “unfair” to them — mearly a hindrance. Keep in mind that there is only a .6% difference to the 10 man squade if you are lacking ascended (ascended gear provides a 6% buff — not a 15% as you stated. So having 1 in a 10 man group in exotics would only amount to that {even less to Rangers due to their pet}). The chance that your lack of ascended would cause the wipe to begin with is nill. And if the party agrees to your state beforehand, there is no part to one being a “jerk.” Plus everyone can just try again tomorrow if the party doesn’t make it. Again, this is not content that is ment to be easy. Not all of it is supposed to be completed in a day. Not everyone is supposed to be able to do it right out of the gate, so to speak.

Just take your time with it. Don’t grind anything! (I rarely choose to unless I’m in the mood) work up to some ascended over time through doing what you like best. Find a friendly guild or group of people who couldn’t care less if you’re in ascended. And then practice one raid wing at a time. It’s going to take a long while, but the feeling you get with victory is all the sweeter

Or don’t do the raids at all. Wait for legendary armor to be potentially released at a later date, you won’t need it till then. Sure you’ll be down a skin or three, but at the end of the day are you really suffering?

I’d like to add that I would be happy to help you when the time comes. My main’s name is Lance Bowson. I’m not always on due to limited internet and abundant work, but I love helping others when I can

(Please excuse typos. This was written from a phone <3 )

Sykper.6583:

morrolan.9608:

CandyHearts.6025:

If anything in gw2 is grind I’d hate to see the people with that opinion play any other MMORPG. XD

SWTOR and WOW are less grindy than GW2.

I won’t comment on the current state of WoW as I quit that game at the very end of WotLK.

However explain how SWTOR is less grindy than GW2? Do we want to talk about the Gear Treadmill? Weeklies and Dailies? Perhaps PvP commedations? Even some of the reputation cosmetics? Even with KotFE coming out, I don’t expect any sort of changes in this design.

You must have missed the change to PvP gear, the cost has been drastically reduced and there are effectively no commendation caps. And yes obtaining BIS PvE gear is less of a grind than in GW2 even less so with kotfe and all raids being available and giving top level rewards. Dailies are irrelevant.

You log in once a day for one month for ascended amulet. Yes simply logging in. How is that a grind?

You do guild mission with your guild once a week for one month for both ascended trinkets. How is that a grind?

You do one fractal a day for about two weeks for both ascended rings? How is that a grind?

You spend 80g for an ascended weapon. How is that a grind?

The entitlement these days. People just need toughen up and actually play the game. It doesn’t promise to sell you BiS gear for free.

I notice you’re rather silent about six of the slots. . .

You say “that there are more people that would prefer to not have to run content that they do not enjoy, than there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content that they hate.” But I feel this is implying that there are only these 2 types of people and situations. First of all, there are plenty of people who prefer grinding for loot in content they enjoy

Nobody is disputing that there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content they enjoy. I am one of them, when it’s content I enjoy. My point was specifically referencing people playing content that they do not enjoy, and every type of content in the game is something that some people do not enjoy, and almost everyone has at least some content in the game that they do not enjoy.

The point is, when the situation occurs where you do not enjoy the content, but because of the game’s design it is the only way to earn something you want, what do you do in that situation? It’s not so uncommon that you can pretend it just isn’t likely to come up.

My point is that players who do enjoy grinding loot in content they enjoy should be able to do that, that should be an option. But if you do not enjoy that content, then you should be able to do different content instead, and still grind out those rewards.

Second, I do not see raids as being something that is “grindy,” as they have a clear progression path where the only grind that could come in would be a result of the player(s) — not the content.

Ok, whether you view raids as grindy or not is up to you, just accept as fact that there are a lot of people who would view raids as grindy. We don’t have exact details of how raids will work out in GW2, but most people are assuming that you will have to complete the same raid wings several times each in order to earn all the available rewards, possibly three or more each, and that would certainly constitute grind by any reasonable definition. If it’s possible to actually fail the raid wings then that would only further increase the level of grind.

No, you are not going to have to do them. That is an arbitrary condition you are putting on yourself (bring condi-cleanse).

Nope. I just flat out and absolutely reject the notion of “well if you don’t want the content then you can just give up on the reward, it’s not a problem.”

Kitten that.

If there is a reward that I want, and it’s locked behind content, then I either have to do that content, or miss out on the reward, and NEITHER is an acceptable option. They may be acceptable options to you, but don’t try to project that defeatist attitude onto others.

It is finally a chance for the more elite (not to be confused with elitist) side of the community to be allowed to show their skill and commitment

Lol. “not to be confused with elistist.” Lol. “It’s finally a chance for the bakers (not to be confused with those who bake. . .”

In my opinion, legendary armor is largely a convenience — not a requirement. While the unique skins are pure flavor.

And that’s a fine attitude to have, so long as you only apply it to yourself and your choices, and do not intend for other players to have the same position. If you can argue that a player should “be fine” with not having access to a given reward, then you should be doubly fine with “non-elitist elites” being able to get that item, but not having exclusive access to them. If non-elites should be fine with not having the item, then the elites should be doubly fine with sharing them.

Just take your time with it. Don’t grind anything! (I rarely choose to unless I’m in the mood) work up to some ascended over time through doing what you like best.

Every attempt would be a grind, at least after the first. Stretching out that process wouldn’t improve anything.

Or don’t do the raids at all. Wait for legendary armor to be potentially released at a later date, you won’t need it till then. Sure you’ll be down a skin or three, but at the end of the day are you really suffering?

Yes?

I’d like to add that I would be happy to help you when the time comes. My main’s name is Lance Bowson. I’m not always on due to limited internet and abundant work, but I love helping others when I can

I appreciate that, but rather than offering to help me on your own terms, perhaps you could actually listen to what I am saying, listen to what I actually want out of this, and help me on my own terms, to get what I want, not what you’re willing to let me have. I would rather have your support in allowing me to not have to do raids than to have your help in completing them.

Ohoni.6057:

It is finally a chance for the more elite (not to be confused with elitist) side of the community to be allowed to show their skill and commitment

Lol. “not to be confused with elistist.” Lol. “It’s finally a chance for the bakers (not to be confused with those who bake. . .”

This kind of clearly states to me what you think about anyone who is better then you at the game, and how it kittenes you off.

Let me explain the difference. “The more elite” he mentions are people who want group content that is challenging, in wich they can better themselves and they live for the feeling of overcoming a challenge. To them a unique reward is like a badge of honor, a personal reminder of them overcoming the challenge, something they are proud off. These players also love teamwork and improving together.

Elitists are something totally different. They do not care about overcoming challenges, they care about 1 single thing, proving that they are better then others. Most elitists are actually not that good, and use thrashing others to make themselves feel better.
To them a reward is like bragging rights. They are a small outspoken minority, and it’s kittening me off that you keep putting all players who enjoy playing hardcore content, especially hardcore team based group content, in the same basket as these ignorant kittens.

Ohoni.6057:

As for the raid, if we have to do the raid over and over until we get one reward then it would be terrible, but I think they’ve added a lot of rewards in the Raid, so you won’t be repeating the same content for one reward, but multiple ones.

That. . . makes it worse, not better. . .

How does it make it worse? If some content has only one reward then they will make it sure it takes a very long time to get it, so the content is never useless. If it has loads upon loads of rewards then it will be a lot easier/faster to get them because you will repeat the content over and over for all of them. Each run you will get something and make some progress, compared to not getting anything after 100 runs.

Dungeon skins with tokens is a good system, you always make some progress after each run because there is a huge selections of things to get. Aetherpath skins isn’t a good system, Tequatl skins isn’t, Triple Trouble skins isn’t, any World Boss exclusive trinkets isn’t (like Sam), Fractal weapons isn’t and so on because they are based on pure RNG, and/or the rewards are very few and limited.

Let me explain the difference. “The more elite” he mentions are people who want group content that is challenging, in wich they can better themselves and they live for the feeling of overcoming a challenge.

Which implies that they believe themselves to be “too good” for the existing content.

To them a unique reward is like a badge of honor, a personal reminder of them overcoming the challenge, something they are proud off.

And we’ve been over this. I am 100% fine with them getting a “badge of honor” that they can keep as a personal reminder of overcoming the challenge. I don’t think I’ve heard of a single person that would oppose that. All I oppose is that these badges of honor should come in the form of a weapon or armor skin that is exclusive to that method. The “badge” can take literally any other form and it ceases to be a point of contention, so why not do that?

To them a reward is like bragging rights. They are a small outspoken minority, and it’s kittening me off that you keep putting all players who enjoy playing hardcore content, especially hardcore team based group content, in the same basket as these ignorant kittens.

Look, I really don’t put them all in the same basket. The ones I put into the same basket are the ones that are the same. The ones that are not the same, the ones that do not believe that having more skill at this or that element of the game makes them “better” than other players, the ones that understand that having better skill at certain content does not entitle them to exclusive rewards, the ones that want other players to have the cool rewards that would make them happy, the ones that can be satisfied with a “personal badge of honor” that IS personal and not something passively displayed to others, those guys are fine.

Look, if people want to be elitist, be elitist, but there’s no reason to try and soften it. Basically, anyone who considers themselves “elite” is, by default, an “elitist.” The only ones who are not elitist are those who others would consider to be “elite,” while they themselves absolutely refuse to consider themselves as such and refuse any special treatment.

How does it make it worse?

Because if you’re repeating content multiple times for a single reward, then once you’ve got it you can leave. If you’re repeating content for multiple rewards then chances are that you’ll end up having to complete the content even MORE times to get all of them, and when you’re down to only one of the remaining items, then you’re in the same boat as the first scenario, only you’ve already completed the content dozens of times.

No, the better scenario is to allow you to repeat the content as much as you like, but also provide other options. If the average payout rate in a dungeon is that you get your item at around 10 runs, and you want to do 10 runs, then you can do 10 runs. If you hate the place after 5, then you can do something else and still progress towards that reward you wanted. If you love the place after 10 runs, then you can keep running it as long as you want, and progress towards rewards from other content areas instead. You win no matter whether you love it or hate it.

Dungeon skins with tokens is a good system, you always make some progress after each run because there is a huge selections of things to get. Aetherpath skins isn’t a good system, Tequatl skins isn’t, Triple Trouble skins isn’t, any World Boss exclusive trinkets isn’t (like Sam), Fractal weapons isn’t and so on because they are based on pure RNG, and/or the rewards are very few and limited..

Agreed. If there are eight unique items, and each run gives you a chance at earning one of them or a chance of earning none, then “none” rolls are no better, and winning one of them puts you no closer to any particular one, it’s just an illusion more than anything, and again at the end you’re left rolling for that last one each time as you accumulate dupes. Tokens work better because each one is a tangible step forward.

Still, grinding out tokens in content you do not enjoy is still grind, which is why it’s better to allow people to farm tokens in areas that suite their own style, rather than in areas where their tastes in fashion line up with the outfits ANet has arbitrarily locked there.

Ohoni.6057:

Because if you’re repeating content multiple times for a single reward, then once you’ve got it you can leave.

If there is only one reward, chances are the RNG and/or repetition involved will be so huge to “force” players to replay the content a huge amount of times, for example see Tequatl’s hoard or the Fractal Weapon skins. If there are multiple rewards behind a good system, not pure RNG, for example with tokens, then you might be able to get one reward every run, or every 2 runs. That’s why having multiple rewards is better than having only one.

If you’re repeating content for multiple rewards then chances are that you’ll end up having to complete the content even MORE times to get all of them, and when you’re down to only one of the remaining items, then you’re in the same boat as the first scenario, only you’ve already completed the content dozens of times.

Two systems: 1 reward after 10 runs and 10 rewards after 10 runs, 1 run for each reward. End result the same, you repeat the content 10 times, but at least with the second system you get something every run instead of one thing after 10 runs. Even if the second system will require a total of 20 runs instead, that is 2 runs for each reward, 2 is lower than 10. The important thing is to reward the player often, so they make some progress, and not have to rely on RNG and ungodly amount of repetitions to earn any kind of reward. Having multiple rewards makes this possible.

Let this thread die… There is a clear winner and that is the direction the game is taking. Most GW2 player left and are now coming back after changes such as Ascended, more hardcore PvP (8v8 blew), Fractals, and now the promise of Elite Specializations, new Legendary’s, and Raids.

The primary dissenter here just wants the shinies and doesn’t think shinies should be difficult to get. You aren’t going to convince them to change their minds. And they certainly aren’t going to get Arena-Net to change the direction of the expansion.

These entitled players actually see this as a moral issue. You would have better luck teaching a terrorist to not throw sexual and religious minorities off of buildings. You are committing a cardinal sin, admitting you like competition, admitting that rewards should fit the rarity or value of the skill required to complete a given task. If anyone can do it you shouldn’t get kitten for it.

If there is only one reward, chances are the RNG and/or repetition involved will be so huge to “force” players to replay the content a huge amount of times, for example see Tequatl’s hoard or the Fractal Weapon skins. If there are multiple rewards behind a good system, not pure RNG, for example with tokens, then you might be able to get one reward every run, or every 2 runs. That’s why having multiple rewards is better than having only one.

Well, you should certainly get generic rewards with every run, so that you get “something,” but having multiple specific rewards really comes down to how many unique assets they can make, and is really only a benefit in a token system, not in an RNG system where you might always end up chasing that last item way past the other ones. As a little example of that in action, the Marvel Heroes game each character has a set of 5+ “unique items” that you can earn while doing any content, but only while playing that character (aside from really high RNG roles on other characters which is not worth considering). Anyway, you want to collect at least one of each of them, but this often means that you have to earn a total of dozens of unique drops, having had 4/5 since almost the beginning of the process and having collected 4+ of several of them, before that missing unique drops. It can be pretty annoying if you don’t particularly enjoy that character and just want to clear them out and move on.

Two systems: 1 reward after 10 runs and 10 rewards after 10 runs, 1 run for each reward. End result the same, you repeat the content 10 times, but at least with the second system you get something every run instead of one thing after 10 runs.

Sure, if it works out that way, but typically when developers force you to repeat content, they don’t want to provide a new reward for each run you make. If there are ten rewards, you’ll likely have to do dozens of runs before you earn them all, whether they go with RNG or tokens. The only difference between the two systems would be variance.

I will say this, having multiple rewards is better than fewer ones when using a token system, because it offers more things to buy, and if you focus on one then you can typically earn it faster than if it’s the only option available, because the balance is around “collect them all.” If the system is RNG-focused, on the other hand, I would prefer to have as few items as possible, so that when something does drop, it’s more likely to be the thing I want, the thing I came there for. And of course the ideal is that the token system would allow you to acquire the item elsewhere if you really dislike that content, or to earn other rewards from it using the tokens even after you’ve maxed out on the specific rewards, if you really enjoy that content.

Ohoni.6057:

Let me explain the difference. “The more elite” he mentions are people who want group content that is challenging, in wich they can better themselves and they live for the feeling of overcoming a challenge.

Which implies that they believe themselves to be “too good” for the existing content.

No it doesn’t… Seriously do you considder everyone who likes the thought of raids to be beneath you? Talk about showing true collors…
You are on a personal crusade here, this has nothing to do with other people.

Ohoni.6057:

I will say this, having multiple rewards is better than fewer ones when using a token system, because it offers more things to buy, and if you focus on one then you can typically earn it faster than if it’s the only option available, because the balance is around “collect them all.” If the system is RNG-focused, on the other hand, I would prefer to have as few items as possible, so that when something does drop, it’s more likely to be the thing I want, the thing I came there for.

Yep. Pure RNG systems are horrible, I can’t wait to see how they are going to change the Fractal weapon acquisition. Aside from RNG and tokens there is also the system used in the precursor crafting, other than the materials, the non-material things are always one-shot things, which is a good thing. Like dance in front of that leader, drop from the top of the volcano, collect different Oozes etc. No RNG (or repetition) involved at all, just too many things to do, which is a great alternative to a token system.

I don’t see going around the globe and collecting different Oozes as “grind”, instead if I had to kill ONE ooze and had a 2% chance of dropping what I needed then it would be more of a grind. I think a good collection can replace a token system although it obviously requires a lot more work, it also makes more “sense” lore-wise too, if the things you are collecting make some sense for the item.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is disputing that there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content they enjoy. I am one of them, when it’s content I enjoy. My point was specifically referencing people playing content that they do not enjoy, and every type of content in the game is something that some people do not enjoy, and almost everyone has at least some content in the game that they do not enjoy.

The point is, when the situation occurs where you do not enjoy the content, but because of the game’s design it is the only way to earn something you want, what do you do in that situation? It’s not so uncommon that you can pretend it just isn’t likely to come up.

My point is that players who do enjoy grinding loot in content they enjoy should be able to do that, that should be an option. But if you do not enjoy that content, then you should be able to do different content instead, and still grind out those rewards.

Ok, whether you view raids as grindy or not is up to you, just accept as fact that there are a lot of people who would view raids as grindy. We don’t have exact details of how raids will work out in GW2, but most people are assuming that you will have to complete the same raid wings several times each in order to earn all the available rewards, possibly three or more each, and that would certainly constitute grind by any reasonable definition. If it’s possible to actually fail the raid wings then that would only further increase the level of grind.

Ok, I think I am finally starting to boil down your viewpoint. First, though, allow me to address the previous paragraph. Most of your support for raids being grindy are based on assumtions (i.e. completing the same raid wing multiple times to get what is wanted). Truth is we have no idea how they will be structured rewardwise yet. Albeit this means I can offer little to no support myself that they won’t be. So for now, let’s leave anything involving the “grindy-ness” of raids off the table.

Nope. I just flat out and absolutely reject the notion of “well if you don’t want the content then you can just give up on the reward, it’s not a problem.”

Kitten that.

If there is a reward that I want, and it’s locked behind content, then I either have to do that content, or miss out on the reward, and NEITHER is an acceptable option. They may be acceptable options to you, but don’t try to project that defeatist attitude.

It really is not a problem. You are making it one. Missing out on rewards is a completely acceptable option. In fact — it happens all the time. When not everyone, or very few people, has/have a reward, it just works to add to the prestige. I’m not “projecting” a “defeatist attitude,” I am simply being reasonable with expectations and game market mechanics. If anything, I could argue you are projecting such an attitude, as you are so quick to give up on content you have even yet to try. I really don’t mean to be rude, but…when I read this it just sounds like sophisticated whining :\

And that’s a fine attitude to have, so long as you only apply it to yourself and your choices, and do not intend for other players to have the same position. If you can argue that a player should “be fine” with not having access to a given reward, then you should be doubly fine with “non-elitist elites” being able to get that item, but not having exclusive access to them. If non-elites should be fine with not having the item, then the elites should be doubly fine with sharing them.

This is counter-intuitive. If non-elites are fine being in a position of not having an item, who would elites share said items with? How would the sharing even happen? What kind of mechenic would this be in the game? I guess I could simplify this down to: How does a player being fine with not having access to a given reward correlate to elites not having exclusive access?

Going over to the topic of raid item value, what you are suggesting would severly devalue the uniqueness of items earned in raids. Having multiple ways to obtain some items is good sometimes (such as ascended gear), but it is equally important to have gear that is only obtainable through certain branches of content (such as the Annelid Rifle Skin). The reason being due to the unique value it adds to these items. Their uniqueness serves as a visual representation of direct accomplishment. I understand you want every reward in the game to have multiple (or at least 2) methods of acquire, and that’s a fine attitude to have, so long as you only apply it to yourself and your choices, and do not intend for other players to have the same position.

Every attempt would be a grind, at least after the first. Stretching out that process wouldn’t improve anything.

More assumtion on reward requirements…

Or don’t do the raids at all. Wait for legendary armor to be potentially released at a later date, you won’t need it till then. Sure you’ll be down a skin or three, but at the end of the day are you really suffering?

Yes?

Wow. Dude. Let a Reaper slap you with their GS’s 3rd auto. If a game is causing you to suffer, it is time to move on to games that better suit you. Misery loves company, but this company doesnt want your misery.

I’d like to add that I would be happy to help you when the time comes. My main’s name is Lance Bowson. I’m not always on due to limited internet and abundant work, but I love helping others when I can

I appreciate that, but rather than offering to help me on your own terms, perhaps you could actually listen to what I am saying, listen to what I actually want out of this, and help me on my own terms, to get what I want, not what you’re willing to let me have. I would rather have your support in allowing me to not have to do raids than to have your help in completing them.

Then this is where we part (probably?). I can’t help you. Only the devs can help you, and I (maybe?) agree with their position on this matter. If you are posting so heavily on these threads in the hope that a dev will reply, then I wish you luck with that. But what this seems to boil down to, as you so eloquently put it, is “what [you] want.” You can sugarcoat your statements with your certainty that others agree with you too (and I’m sure many do), but I imagine that you guys are unfortunately in the minority on this one. I’m just going to leave with this…

Whether you “have” to do raids or not is purely up to you. But sooner or later you are going to have to judge which is stronger: your dislike towards content you have yet to try, or your desire for rewards that are unnecessary within the grand scheme of the rest of the game’s content. If you choose the former, you may view it as giving up, but I advise you to think it as moving on. Content will be blooming on the 23rd. There will be plenty of other things to keep your attention. If you choose the later, then understand that you can always have my assistance when avaliable. However, my support on this matter is something I just cannot not agree to provide.

Spirits guide you.

There is no grind in this game. Only perceived grind. If you want to take things the “fastest way” then you’re grinding but there is no force grind otherwise.

Fox.3469:

Ohoni.6057:

Let me explain the difference. “The more elite” he mentions are people who want group content that is challenging, in wich they can better themselves and they live for the feeling of overcoming a challenge.

Which implies that they believe themselves to be “too good” for the existing content.

No it doesn’t… Seriously do you considder everyone who likes the thought of raids to be beneath you? Talk about showing true collors…
You are on a personal crusade here, this has nothing to do with other people.

These are Ohoni’s opinions:

1. If you have to spend more than 20g on a set of armor it’s grind. In fact this threshold is arbitrary that he would bend to make his point.
2. If you have to play a content that you don’t like to play to obtain a reward, it’s grind but he bends like to [insert whatever arbitrary things here, include option A, B, C, D, etc, up to possibly the entire game except for the reward part].
Hence
3. [Insert whatever he doesn’t like here] = grinding. Hence any activity that mention [these things] will make the game grindy. i.e., he can claim whatever existing in the game as grinding by specific exclusion/inclusion. Trying to have the cake and eat it too.
4. He mistakes elite vs elitist
5. He want easier contents (albeit grindy) to obtain legendary precursor (we’ve proven that there is no alternative option since if you choose the alternative option, it must be easier for you)
6. He mistakes length of time to obtain items to difficulty contents to obtain items
7. Misquoting information to show an incorrect point. This has happened from times to time. (e.g., he has failed to show a quote of a dev saying "exotic will be BiS gear forever but he keeps saying that)

There are more but this margin is too narrow to contain it

I don’t see going around the globe and collecting different Oozes as “grind”, instead if I had to kill ONE ooze and had a 2% chance of dropping what I needed then it would be more of a grind

Well, I agree on that, having to kill dozens of oozes, especially if it were one specific one over and over, would be worse than just having to kill one each in various places, but I still think that the current lists sound like too many tasks to just earn a Precursor for the three year old legendaries. If this had been the system at launch, then I’d probably be fine with it, but they’ve dragged this out for three years now, and I feel we should have received “time served.”

Most of your support for raids being grindy are based on assumtions (i.e. completing the same raid wing multiple times to get what is wanted).

Granted from the start of the discussion. We don’t know enough about GW2 raids to make any hard decisions yet, I am basing my concerns on what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, assumptions that in many cases my counterparts want to be true, and with the full expectation that if the facts do not bare out those assumptions then that line of reasoning would have to adapt accordingly.

I don’t believe that this is any reason to not discuss potential issues in advance.

Would you agree that IF raids are designed in such a way that you would have to complete the same portions multiple times (on average) to receive the intended rewards, that this could reasonably be considered “grind” to at least some of the players?

It really is not a problem. You are making it one.

I’m really not.

Missing out on rewards is a completely acceptable option.

It really isn’t.

If anything, I could argue you are projecting such an attitude, as you are so quick to give up on content you have even yet to try.

I’m not “giving up on it,” I’m just assuming, based on my reaction to previous dungeon/Fractal content, and raids from previous games, and what we’ve seen of the current raid, that raiding is not likely to be the sort of activity that I will enjoy. I know myself to be able to predict how I will react to a game, it’s how I pick and choose from the thousands of games on the market. I genuinely hope that you have, or at least will reach this level of self-understanding as well.

This is counter-intuitive. If non-elites are fine being in a position of not having an item, who would elites share said items with? How would the sharing even happen? What kind of mechenic would this be in the game? I guess I could simplify this down to: How does a player being fine with not having access to a given reward correlate to elites not having exclusive access?

My point is, if you believe that players should be willing to “just accept” that they won’t be getting a certain item, then raiders should be equally willing to accept that while they will be getting that item, the other players can have it too. They should be willing to “just accept” that they are not entitled to exclusive access to that item, that exclusive access to that item is not on the table.

Going over to the topic of raid item value, what you are suggesting would severly devalue the uniqueness of items earned in raids.

It totally would, and that’s totally ok. Yes, it would reduce the value of the item for those that would currently have it, but it would also expand ownership of that item to a much larger pool of people. The few who would currently receive it would be slightly sadder, for merely having the item rather than having exclusive ownership of it, but the many who would be gaining access to the item would be significantly happier, from having not had the item at all to now having it.

It’s like if you measure happiness on a scale of 1-10, and compare a group of 100 people, where only 20 of them originally had the item, but it’s expanded so that 80 people have it, then say the 20 would originally average 8 happiness about the initial situation, while the remaining 80 average 4, in the new system the original 20 would come out averaging 5 while the incoming 60 would average 6, so in total you’ve seen a net “happiness shift” of +90, with the increased sadness of the elites drowned out by the increased happiness of the proles.

All hypothetical, of course, but it stands to reason, right?

Having multiple ways to obtain some items is good sometimes (such as ascended gear), but it is equally important to have gear that is only obtainable through certain branches of content (such as the Annelid Rifle Skin)

Not really. It can be nice to have an item themed to a certain area/content, so that it more closely matches that thing, like the Foefire weapons and Ascalon, or the Mystic weapons and Rata Sum, and it can be fine to make these items easier to acquire in a given area, but there’s no real reason to make them only available in that one area of the game. Being able to earn them elsewhere is fine too, just as you can earn the a fore mentioned weapons from any Mystic Forge.

I understand you want every reward in the game to have multiple (or at least 2) methods of acquire, and that’s a fine attitude to have, so long as you only apply it to yourself and your choices, and do not intend for other players to have the same position.

I’m willing to do that, but honestly I’d prefer to make it available to anyone that wants the same benefit.

Wow. Dude. Let a Reaper slap you with their GS’s 3rd auto. If a game is causing you to suffer, it is time to move on to games that better suit you. Misery loves company, but this company doesnt want your misery.

That’s why I’m suggesting ways that they could avoid it.

Then this is where we part (probably?). I can’t help you. Only the devs can help you, and I (maybe?) agree with their position on this matter.

Sure, and ultimately that would be what would have to happen, but if you truly wanted to be helpful, you could at least stop arguing against me, right? And no, I don’t need a dev to reply, they don’t often do that, but I am hoping maybe one will instead actually change the problematic elements of the game for the better.

Whether you “have” to do raids or not is purely up to you. But sooner or later you are going to have to judge which is stronger: your dislike towards content you have yet to try, or your desire for rewards that are unnecessary within the grand scheme of the rest of the game’s content.

And it’s exactly that sort of decision I’m trying to remove. It helps no one. People shouldn’t be forced to choose the lesser of two evils, they should be able to say “I want this item, and I don’t want to do that activity, so I will do this other activity instead.” And likewise “I like that activity, but the rewards attached are lame, so I’m going to do that activity and earn credit towards something else instead.” Play how you like, be rewarded how you like, so long as it’s all in balance.

Ohoni.6057:

Granted from the start of the discussion. We don’t know enough about GW2 raids to make any hard decisions yet, I am basing my concerns on what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, assumptions that in many cases my counterparts want to be true, and with the full expectation that if the facts do not bare out those assumptions then that line of reasoning would have to adapt accordingly.

I don’t believe that this is any reason to not discuss potential issues in advance.

The reason is clutter. Because it is more productive to discuss what is, rather than what could be.

It really is not a problem. You are making it one.

I’m really not.

You really are.

Missing out on rewards is a completely acceptable option.

It really isn’t.

It really is.

I’m not “giving up on it,” I’m just assuming, based on my reaction to previous dungeon/Fractal content, and raids from previous games, and what we’ve seen of the current raid, that raiding is not likely to be the sort of activity that I will enjoy. I know myself to be able to predict how I will react to a game, it’s how I pick and choose from the thousands of games on the market. I genuinely hope that you have, or at least will reach this level of self-understanding as well.

Stop assuming. It is a waste of time. Even if the assumtions are guestimations.

My point is, if you believe that players should be willing to “just accept” that they won’t be getting a certain item, then raiders should be equally willing to accept that while they will be getting that item, the other players can have it too. They should be willing to “just accept” that they are not entitled to exclusive access to that item, that exclusive access to that item is not on the table.

Only one can be true, not both.

It totally would, and that’s totally ok. Yes, it would reduce the value of the item for those that would currently have it, but it would also expand ownership of that item to a much larger pool of people. The few who would currently receive it would be slightly sadder, for merely having the item rather than having exclusive ownership of it, but the many who would be gaining access to the item would be significantly happier, from having not had the item at all to now having it.

No, it is not ok. And you are assuming again.

It’s like if you measure happiness on a scale of 1-10, and compare a group of 100 people, where only 20 of them originally had the item, but it’s expanded so that 80 people have it, then say the 20 would originally average 8 happiness about the initial situation, while the remaining 80 average 4, in the new system the original 20 would come out averaging 5 while the incoming 60 would average 6, so in total you’ve seen a net “happiness shift” of +90, with the increased sadness of the elites drowned out by the increased happiness of the proles.

All hypothetical, of course, but it stands to reason, right?

It falls to reason. All you are considering is happiness, but you are forgetting interest. The two corrilate when pushed to extreams, but generally they are seperate. This is the same scenario that occured shortly after launch. The mass exodus of people was largely due in part to the availability of everything. Reworking systems to be similar to the past would be reason for a further exodus.

Not really. It can be nice to have an item themed to a certain area/content, so that it more closely matches that thing, like the Foefire weapons and Ascalon, or the Mystic weapons and Rata Sum, and it can be fine to make these items easier to acquire in a given area, but there’s no real reason to make them only available in that one area of the game. Being able to earn them elsewhere is fine too, just as you can earn the a fore mentioned weapons from any Mystic Forge.

Yes really.

I’m willing to do that, but honestly I’d prefer to make it available to anyone that wants the same benefit.

Too bad. Head your own advice before you preach it. You are not willing to do that until then.

That’s why I’m suggesting ways that they could avoid it.

There are simpler ways to avoid it then this. Such as avoiding it.

Sure, and ultimately that would be what would have to happen, but if you truly wanted to be helpful, you could at least stop arguing against me, right? And no, I don’t need a dev to reply, they don’t often do that, but I am hoping maybe one will instead actually change the problematic elements of the game for the better.

I am being helpful, but not for your position. Also that better you mention is arbitrary to your minority.

And it’s exactly that sort of decision I’m trying to remove. It helps no one. People shouldn’t be forced to choose the lesser of two evils, they should be able to say “I want this item, and I don’t want to do that activity, so I will do this other activity instead.” And likewise “I like that activity, but the rewards attached are lame, so I’m going to do that activity and earn credit towards something else instead.” Play how you like, be rewarded how you like, so long as it’s all in balance.

They are not evils, they are life choices. Choices happen, deal with it. Often said choices are not what you want to choose. Deal with it.

If the whole game was in the state you describe, too much value would be lost. Content with little value is quantity over quality. Reward obtainablity abundancy is a pathway to failure through disinterest because people will always pick the easiest route. The easiest route leads to boredom in part to grinding (see old CoF and swamp fractal). This would lead to disinterest. The game would revert back to it’s older self — just with more content.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t see going around the globe and collecting different Oozes as “grind”, instead if I had to kill ONE ooze and had a 2% chance of dropping what I needed then it would be more of a grind

Well, I agree on that, having to kill dozens of oozes, especially if it were one specific one over and over, would be worse than just having to kill one each in various places, but I still think that the current lists sound like too many tasks to just earn a Precursor for the three year old legendaries. If this had been the system at launch, then I’d probably be fine with it, but they’ve dragged this out for three years now, and I feel we should have received “time served.”

It’s a game. Time served is not something that nescessarilly needs to be paid out. It would be like asking for a free episode after watching all the Doctor Who episodes. Because you served time watching it. (Just an illustration)

Missing out on rewards is a completely acceptable option.

It really isn’t.

You need a reality check. If you don’t do the necessary steps in a game towards a reward you don’t get the reward. It’s an option to do these steps or not. Some people are fine just playing the story, others are just fine doing pvp only on the basis of getting to be the best gw2 team. They miss out on tons of rewards because they don’t choose to put in the time or effort. Which is completely acceptable. It’s a game, you play the game by its rules and get whichever enjoyment you can out of it.
Sure you can plea for change but the game still will have rules, and there’s different opinions on what is the most fun. You already shown a complete disregard to some opinions and prejudged them as character flaws. Fine as your opinion, but in a business no one is going to take such a notion seriously let alone change their product to such a notion. Especially a luxury good like a game isn’t there to be the supreme role model or to carryout their political campaign against people with different opinions. It needs to be inclusive to be successful. Your notion of intolerance has no place here.

Guys if you look at the whole thread it is mostly just ohoni arguing against everyone else. Why is this thread still alive seriously, just let ohoni perceive it as taking grind to a whole new lvl who cares. Why are you trying to convince someone who obviously won’t be convinced.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t see going around the globe and collecting different Oozes as “grind”, instead if I had to kill ONE ooze and had a 2% chance of dropping what I needed then it would be more of a grind

Well, I agree on that, having to kill dozens of oozes, especially if it were one specific one over and over, would be worse than just having to kill one each in various places, but I still think that the current lists sound like too many tasks to just earn a Precursor for the three year old legendaries. If this had been the system at launch, then I’d probably be fine with it, but they’ve dragged this out for three years now, and I feel we should have received “time served.”

Maybe they will give a free precursor on our 5th of 6th birthday :X

It’s weird how we need to all those things to make a precursor and then on top of that they also require materials, even time-gated materials. The cost of crafting some precursors is nearly the same as buying them on the TP, plus we need to do all the other extra things. It doesn’t make much sense to me.

But at least the gathering part looks fun enough and far away of any kind of grind, I just wish they’d make the “material” collection tier the final one, so I can do all the gathering parts on every single precursor for the fun of it then just finish only those precursors I actually want for the skins.

Reminder: this thread is about the grind…

Zach.2618:

Guys if you look at the whole thread it is mostly just ohoni arguing against everyone else. Why is this thread still alive seriously, just let ohoni perceive it as taking grind to a whole new lvl who cares. Why are you trying to convince someone who obviously won’t be convinced.

I suppose it has something to do with what kind of people take the opposite side. See, I would assume most of the people debating him are the kind of people who enjoy a challenge — however fruitless. Personally, I was curious where he would go with what is said, like seeing what a grasshopper tries to do when you drop it in a big spider’s web. I can’t make any promises, but I think I’ve got what I needed :P

The reason is clutter. Because it is more productive to discuss what is, rather than what could be.

“What is” has largely been discussed to bits for the next few days, and it’s always good to work out contingencies before they are needed, rather than after. It allows you to move on them sooner.

But if you don’t think you have anything to add to the discussion, then you can always choose to not participate.

Stop assuming. It is a waste of time. Even if the assumtions are guestimations.

Most of life is based on reasonable assumptions, perfect information is rarely available.

My point is, if you believe that players should be willing to “just accept” that they won’t be getting a certain item, then raiders should be equally willing to accept that while they will be getting that item, the other players can have it too. They should be willing to “just accept” that they are not entitled to exclusive access to that item, that exclusive access to that item is not on the table.

Only one can be true, not both.

No, really both can be true, as both are just acceptance of certain realities. You can have non-raiders accept that maybe they can’t get the things that they want, and raiders also accept that maybe they can’t have exclusive access to those things, at which people the outcome would become that which would make the most people the most happy overall. The two thoughts are not mutually exclusive, the only two points that are mutually exclusive are if either takes the opposite viewpoint.

It falls to reason. All you are considering is happiness, but you are forgetting interest. The two corrilate when pushed to extreams, but generally they are seperate. This is the same scenario that occured shortly after launch. The mass exodus of people was largely due in part to the availability of everything. Reworking systems to be similar to the past would be reason for a further exodus.

The “mass exodus” was largely fictional though, a work of a noisy few who were certain that they were bringing everyone with them, when in fact the game;s highest concurrent players (that have been announced, at least) was around a year after launch, well after this supposed “exodus.” There might well be less players pre-HoT than after launch, but that’s sort of to be expected in games, but it’s hardly a “mass exodus.”

There’s no doubt that there are some players opposed to “availability,” but there seem to be a lot more that are fans of it.

I am being helpful, but not for your position.

You understand this is like saying “I’m helping you move, I’m just not carrying any of your stuff around.” Again, you don’t want me to be happy, I get it, and that’s fine, but at least be honest about it.

They are not evils, they are life choices. Choices happen, deal with it. Often said choices are not what you want to choose. Deal with it.

. . .

You do understand what the term “lesser of two evils” means, right?

The easiest route leads to boredom in part to grinding (see old CoF and swamp fractal).

It only becomes a problem when the developers are too lazy about tweaking content that is consistently too easy.

The game would revert back to it’s older self — just with more content.

Which is what most GW2 players want.

It’s a game. Time served is not something that nescessarilly needs to be paid out. It would be like asking for a free episode after watching all the Doctor Who episodes. Because you served time watching it. (Just an illustration)

Ehhh, I don’t know, to use the example of a narrative fiction, it would be like a several-season build-up to some big reveal, only for it to turn out to be very lame and does not honor the previous season’s build-up, like there’s some mystery villain pulling the strings, and it just turns out to be some random nobody that was not at all foreshadowed or previously introduced.

My point is, we’ve been treading water for years now, waiting for this system to come out, it would have been nice if they’d taken that into account and made it a bit easier for long term players to advance it.

You need a reality check. If you don’t do the necessary steps in a game towards a reward you don’t get the reward.

Yes, but it’s also an option to petition the developers to change the necessary steps, if the existing necessary steps are not to your liking. We’ve been talking about the Legendary Precursors crafting, for example, which while it may not be ideal, is at least a system put in to alter the existing rules to getting a Precursor. We’ve been talking about raids, which are a massive change to the previous unwritten rule of GW2, “no raids,” and was added because a vocal minority thought that they would improve the existing game. We’ll see if they were right.

That is the reality, that an MMO is a living world, and anything can happen. I fully understand the way things are now, just as I fully understand that they can be different tomorrow.

You already shown a complete disregard to some opinions and prejudged them as character flaws. Fine as your opinion, but in a business no one is going to take such a notion seriously let alone change their product to such a notion. Especially a luxury good like a game isn’t there to be the supreme role model or to carryout their political campaign against people with different opinions. It needs to be inclusive to be successful. Your notion of intolerance has no place here.

Can you honestly say that those who disagreed with me have shown any more tolerance or regard for my position? Remember that I am the one arguing for the more inclusive position, the one in which the greatest amount of the players receive the things they want from the game, while you are the one fighting for exclusivity.

The game would revert back to it’s older self — just with more content.

Which is what most GW2 players want.

Clearly this isn’t the case, otherwise you’d have someone helping to defend you.

Ohoni.6057:

You log in once a day for one month for ascended amulet. Yes simply logging in. How is that a grind?

You do guild mission with your guild once a week for one month for both ascended trinkets. How is that a grind?

You do one fractal a day for about two weeks for both ascended rings? How is that a grind?

You spend 80g for an ascended weapon. How is that a grind?

The entitlement these days. People just need toughen up and actually play the game. It doesn’t promise to sell you BiS gear for free.

I notice you’re rather silent about six of the slots. . .

Those six slots give +20 primary sta and +16 secodary stats, so are irrelevant as far as any barrier to content or victory is concerned. You are being dishonest by trying to imply they would be any sort of requirement.

So, does anyone feel ArenaNet is about to cave under this relentless rhetorical assault?

Nike.2631:

So, does anyone feel ArenaNet is about to cave under this relentless rhetorical assault?

More like locking the thread now that is going completely off-topic…

Clearly this isn’t the case, otherwise you’d have someone helping to defend you.

There have been, from time to time, but I think I’ve been handling my end of the conversation well enough. Regardless, the number of people posting on various sides of a topic on the forums has absolutely zero relevance to the number of people sharing that opinion in the game itself.

Those six slots give +20 primary sta and +16 secodary stats, so are irrelevant as far as any barrier to content or victory is concerned. You are being dishonest by trying to imply they would be any sort of requirement.

So since those numbers are so irrelevant, it wouldn’t be a problem if they made Ascended armor far cheaper to acquire, right?

More like locking the thread now that is going completely off-topic…

It’s still pretty much on topic, although I have noticed that on the last few threads, certain people just start throwing temper tantrums, presumably in an attempt to get the thread shut down because they’re tired of talking about it but don’t want anyone else talking about it without their permission.

Ohoni.6057:

Those six slots give +20 primary sta and +16 secodary stats, so are irrelevant as far as any barrier to content or victory is concerned. You are being dishonest by trying to imply they would be any sort of requirement.

So since those numbers are so irrelevant, it wouldn’t be a problem if they made Ascended armor far cheaper to acquire, right?

Actually it means the opposite xD If Ascended Armour takes a bit of time that gives people something longer term to go for but also not infringing too much on others’ ability to keep up.

Don’t you understand yet?

I’m sincerely impressed the moot court has gone on with such enthusiasm, but we keep seeing references to a majority no one can prove and a majority that has never mattered in the first place because it’s not a democracy. Insert endless loop here.

To me the only real question these threads have to offer is ‘will they retain their vigor after HoT launches?’ I’m guessing ‘yes’, because the actual raids are still a few weeks out. But really I’m surprised the defenders of the status quo feel threatened enough to feed the fires this long. IF Ohoni is right then things will change, though not until long after the raids have been live and generated real use-case data. No one here is going to talk ArenaNet into changing course. And I think it’s fascinating to believe anything has been said here that wasn’t already considered behind closed doors when a path forward was being decided on.

Nike.2631:

I’m sincerely impressed the moot court has gone on with such enthusiasm, but we keep seeing references to a majority no one can prove and a majority that has never mattered in the first place because it’s not a democracy. Insert endless loop here.

To me the only real question these threads have to offer is ‘will they retain their vigor after HoT launches?’ I’m guessing ‘yes’, because the actual raids are still a few weeks out. But really I’m surprised the defenders of the status quo feel threatened enough to feed the fires this long. IF Ohoni is right then things will change, though not until long after the raids have been live and generated real use-case data. No one here is going to talk ArenaNet into changing course. And I think it’s fascinating to believe anything has been said here that wasn’t already considered behind closed doors when a path forward was being decided on.

I completely agree no one at Anet is hearing these arguments for the first time, the reason people are arguing against Ohoni and friends is to stop them generating an angry mob fueled with misinformation and madness. If you let bad ideas/idealogies fester and gather strength you can see mob rule breaking down good things.

Nike.2631:

To me the only real question these threads have to offer is ‘will they retain their vigor after HoT launches?’

Only this particular thread had very little to do with Raids and/or their reward acquisition, but it was all about the grind. And the OP was talking specifically about the grind for a legendary weapon and the grind for the mastery points. Both have been discussed in this thread, and so was grind as a whole, and how to make the game less grind-y feeling. Now the devs are reading or not is another matter altogether, or if they will ever act upon our “findings”.

But now it’s going to become like some other threads, so I’m off, it has been fun, we discussed some important things about grind and all and was nice. Not all threads need to turn into a discussion about Raids and their exclusive rewards, there can be more topics.

Coulter.2315:

I completely agree no one at Anet is hearing these arguments for the first time, the reason people are arguing against Ohoni and friends is to stop them generating an angry mob fueled with misinformation and madness. If you let bad ideas/idealogies fester and gather strength you can see mob rule breaking down good things.

We had an impressive angry mob in the ‘change the Dragonhunter name’ thread and that sank to the bottom of the fish tank with the rest of the detritus a few days after the other side stopped feeding it.

Its a good model to iterate on .

Phy.2913:

Clearly this isn’t the case, otherwise you’d have someone helping to defend you.

And here we come again to the point of some groups of players being significantly overrepresented in the forums.

Besides, this thread is about legendary precursor grind – which i (and i bet many other people as well) am willing to see for myself before giving a feedback on it. Mind you, i still expect this feedback to be negative, but it’s not as important matter as the armor precursors case (well, unless Anet is going to intoduce armor precursor collections too, which i’d be very much in favour of).

Ohoni.6057:

It’s a game. Time served is not something that nescessarilly needs to be paid out. It would be like asking for a free episode after watching all the Doctor Who episodes. Because you served time watching it. (Just an illustration)

Ehhh, I don’t know, to use the example of a narrative fiction, it would be like a several-season build-up to some big reveal, only for it to turn out to be very lame and does not honor the previous season’s build-up, like there’s some mystery villain pulling the strings, and it just turns out to be some random nobody that was not at all foreshadowed or previously introduced.

My point is, we’ve been treading water for years now, waiting for this system to come out, it would have been nice if they’d taken that into account and made it a bit easier for long term players to advance it.

A scavenger hunt was promised, and it’s exactly what we will get by the looks of it. Your explanation doesn’t fit your analogy. Either way, my point still stands, it’s not needed. It would be altering the new design to meet the old standards. The design would need to measure with two standards, where do you draw the line between the two systems? This would create more problems to solve than merely designing a new system. In design you need to move on to improve, not being stuck in the past.

You need a reality check. If you don’t do the necessary steps in a game towards a reward you don’t get the reward.

Yes, but it’s also an option to petition the developers to change the necessary steps, if the existing necessary steps are not to your liking. We’ve been talking about the Legendary Precursors crafting, for example, which while it may not be ideal, is at least a system put in to alter the existing rules to getting a Precursor. We’ve been talking about raids, which are a massive change to the previous unwritten rule of GW2, “no raids,” and was added because a vocal minority thought that they would improve the existing game. We’ll see if they were right.

That is the reality, that an MMO is a living world, and anything can happen. I fully understand the way things are now, just as I fully understand that they can be different tomorrow.

That’s basically what I said.

You already shown a complete disregard to some opinions and prejudged them as character flaws. Fine as your opinion, but in a business no one is going to take such a notion seriously let alone change their product to such a notion. Especially a luxury good like a game isn’t there to be the supreme role model or to carryout their political campaign against people with different opinions. It needs to be inclusive to be successful. Your notion of intolerance has no place here.

Can you honestly say that those who disagreed with me have shown any more tolerance or regard for my position? Remember that I am the one arguing for the more inclusive position, the one in which the greatest amount of the players receive the things they want from the game, while you are the one fighting for exclusivity.

When there’s conflicting opinions or opposing opinions you’re suggesting to disregard one of those sides, while most people opposing your opinion are merely saying to split those sides and make parts of the game for each side. And yes, that does mean some parts will be exclusive to either side.
So yes they regarded your opinion, and proposed to not making everything exclusive.

Also your system forces everyone to the same system. It is excluding parts of the playersbase by including everyone.

Ohoni is just a perfect example of the damage caused by the “everyone gets a trophy” generation, people wanting the reward but not wanting to actually achieve what is needed to get it

He thinks that not getting a reward he wants, despite his complete lack of effort to obtain it, as unacceptsble, pure self entitlement.

If you want a gold medal in the Olympics, for a specific sport you get good at the sport and you go earn the medal. You dont get a gold medal in pole vaulting for playing a gameboy in your living room.
This whole idea of “getting any reward for only doing the things I like” is completely rediculous and entirely self serving

Kayberz.5346:

Ohoni is just a perfect example of the damage caused by the “everyone gets a trophy” generation, people wanting the reward but not wanting to actually achieve what is needed to get it

He thinks that not getting a reward he wants, despite his complete lack of effort to obtain it, as unacceptsble, pure self entitlement.

If you want a gold medal in the Olympics, for a specific sport you get good at the sport and you go earn the medal. You dont get a gold medal in pole vaulting for playing a gameboy in your living room.
This whole idea of “getting any reward for only doing the things I like” is completely rediculous and entirely self serving

While I am not one for the whole ‘everyone wins’ view on life, I have to point out that this is a game. Not a competition. Not a sport. And sure as hell not the Olympics. Yes, in those places being good as something specific in order to win is important.

Being able to work towards a specific goal (like legendary armor) via a multitude of avenues isn’t a self serving request. Nor is having options a bad thing. You just have to make sure 1 path is not easier than any other path.

By the logic you set forth, WvWers having the ability to earn Hero Points via WvW ranks should not be allowed. They should have to come into PvE and hunt down the challenges just like pve players. I think many (if not all) of them would argue that with you.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You just have to make sure 1 path is not easier than any other path.

How exactly are you going to keep all paths on the same difficulty? All I’ve read so far is ways to reduce the difficulty, not keep it the same. Remove twitch gameplay (timing/dodging), remove the amount of players needed (can do it solo), remove the time requirement (can farm on your own time at small intervals), remove build requirement (can do it in any type of gear with any stat combinations), remove teamwork and coordination (same as removing the need for more people) and replace ALL that with extra repetition. If you keep all the above the same, then why add multiple paths anyway, if they will be the same? If you have a way of keeping the different paths on the same difficulty but while preserving all the aspects of difficulty (as explained above) then do tell.

maddoctor.2738:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You just have to make sure 1 path is not easier than any other path.

How exactly are you going to keep all paths on the same difficulty? All I’ve read so far is ways to reduce the difficulty, not keep it the same. Remove twitch gameplay (timing/dodging), remove the amount of players needed (can do it solo), remove the time requirement (can farm on your own time at small intervals), remove build requirement (can do it in any type of gear with any stat combinations), remove teamwork and coordination (same as removing the need for more people) and replace ALL that with extra repetition. If you keep all the above the same, then why add multiple paths anyway, if they will be the same? If you have a way of keeping the different paths on the same difficulty but while preserving all the aspects of difficulty (as explained above) then do tell.

Just because it can be done solo doesn’t mean it can’t be difficult. Liadre (before the life steal was found, and after it was fixed) would be considered difficult by many. Granted it was just a matter of learning and timing the pattern, but that’s all the raids are as well. They just require more people.

Some people don’t have the fastest reflexes, so they don’t want twitch game play, fine. Give them some long arduous massively expensive collection to complete.

Some people like platforming, bury components in new difficult jumping puzzles that can’t be portaled and make it so they have to do the puzzle a few hundred times to get all the components

It can be done. Many of you just don’t want more than one option because you’re straight up opposed to someone else being able to achieve the same shiny in another manner. Regardless of whether or not its equally difficult or super grindy.

BaconofPigs.1683:

These are Ohoni’s opinions:

1. If you have to spend more than 20g on a set of armor it’s grind. In fact this threshold is arbitrary that he would bend to make his point.
2. If you have to play a content that you don’t like to play to obtain a reward, it’s grind but he bends like to [insert whatever arbitrary things here, include option A, B, C, D, etc, up to possibly the entire game except for the reward part].
Hence
3. [Insert whatever he doesn’t like here] = grinding. Hence any activity that mention [these things] will make the game grindy. i.e., he can claim whatever existing in the game as grinding by specific exclusion/inclusion. Trying to have the cake and eat it too.
4. He mistakes elite vs elitist
5. He want easier contents (albeit grindy) to obtain legendary precursor (we’ve proven that there is no alternative option since if you choose the alternative option, it must be easier for you)
6. He mistakes length of time to obtain items to difficulty contents to obtain items
7. Misquoting information to show an incorrect point. This has happened from times to time. (e.g., he has failed to show a quote of a dev saying "exotic will be BiS gear forever but he keeps saying that)

There are more but this margin is too narrow to contain it

^ This.

Guys, stop trying to have a conversation with Ohoni, it’s not worth it – very self-centered and all the advice you guys are giving her is going over her head. Razor you have a saint like patience! Anyways, this thread has been derailed enough. Mods please close it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It can be done. Many of you just don’t want more than one option because you’re straight up opposed to someone else being able to achieve the same shiny in another manner. Regardless of whether or not its equally difficult or super grindy.

Of course it can be done, the question is how to keep their difficulty the same.
Ways to make content more difficult:
twitch gameplay, faster reflexes
require more players
require more time/dedication to complete (time to complete one run, not repetitions)
require more specific builds and equipement
require lots of teamwork and coordination
there might be more but those are the ones I can think off right now.

Some people don’t have the fastest reflexes, so they don’t want twitch game play, fine. Give them some long arduous massively expensive collection to complete.

Fine, you will remove number one from above. Is that collection going to require all the rest?

Some people like platforming, bury components in new difficult jumping puzzles that can’t be portaled and make it so they have to do the puzzle a few hundred times to get all the components

So you keep number one this time (difficult jumping puzzles require reflexes) and remove everything else.

What about content that requires everything on the list? How are you going to keep the difficulty the same then?

maddoctor.2738:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It can be done. Many of you just don’t want more than one option because you’re straight up opposed to someone else being able to achieve the same shiny in another manner. Regardless of whether or not its equally difficult or super grindy.

Of course it can be done, the question is how to keep their difficulty the same.
Ways to make content more difficult:
twitch gameplay, faster reflexes
require more players
require more time/dedication to complete (time to complete one run, not repetitions)
require more specific builds and equipement
require lots of teamwork and coordination
there might be more but those are the ones I can think off right now.

Some people don’t have the fastest reflexes, so they don’t want twitch game play, fine. Give them some long arduous massively expensive collection to complete.

Fine, you will remove number one from above. Is that collection going to require all the rest?

Some people like platforming, bury components in new difficult jumping puzzles that can’t be portaled and make it so they have to do the puzzle a few hundred times to get all the components

So you keep number one this time (difficult jumping puzzles require reflexes) and remove everything else.

What about content that requires everything on the list? How are you going to keep the difficulty the same then?

I didn’t say if you removed one component, you couldn’t compensate via other components. For the collection I did cite “long” “arduous” and “expensive.” That would cover time, dedication, and grind components would it not? The jumping puzzle would require twitch game play, as well as grind (see the part about repeating it a few 100 times) in addition to time gating, considering JP rewards are once a day, per character. Granted, you could cut that down potentially by running multiple alts through, but then you’re getting into the dedication factor, unless they locked those rewards to once per day per account (which could be done). Something like the Gauntlet would meet most of your requirements, sans team play.

Of course the ‘difficulty’ factor is always relative from person to person. Some people found Liadre easy, others did not. Some people consider Arah difficult, other people solo it. Some people think Fractal 50 is hard, others sell it on the LFG regularly.

maddoctor.2738:

What about content that requires everything on the list? How are you going to keep the difficulty the same then?

By increasing one factor while decreasing another. In order not to deprecate the original content, since it’s hard to precisely balance different kinds of difficulty, we can err on the side of caution, and make the increase relatively bigger than the decrease.

Yes, it’s entirely possible to create legendary armor precursor collection, in the image of the weapon precursors that would be fair to the raiders. As long of course as raiders will not consider any and every possibility of precursors available through other options to be unfair, which it seems they do.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Of course the ‘difficulty’ factor is always relative from person to person. Some people found Liadre easy, others did not. Some people consider Arah difficult, other people solo it. Some people think Fractal 50 is hard, others sell it on the LFG regularly.

And some would consider raids to be easier than some of those mentioned.

Astralporing.1957:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Of course the ‘difficulty’ factor is always relative from person to person. Some people found Liadre easy, others did not. Some people consider Arah difficult, other people solo it. Some people think Fractal 50 is hard, others sell it on the LFG regularly.

And some would consider raids to be easier than some of those mentioned.

Right, thus the whole point about difficulty being a relative thing from person to person. Which further simply supports that having more options so that people can choose how they want to go about achieving a desired goal isn’t a bad thing.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Of course the ‘difficulty’ factor is always relative from person to person. Some people found Liadre easy, others did not. Some people consider Arah difficult, other people solo it. Some people think Fractal 50 is hard, others sell it on the LFG regularly.

So, since difficulty is indeed relative from person to person, how are you going to keep the different types of content at the same difficulty? Sounds like an impossibility.

But the most interesting part is that you are giving some very high “grind” requirements, like 100 runs. Others don’t want them as high.

maddoctor.2738:

So, since difficulty is indeed relative from person to person, how are you going to keep the different types of content at the same difficulty? Sounds like an impossibility.

By this general logic we shouldn’t have raids then either, since some will find them “easy” and others will find them “hard.” So either nix them, or don’t give them any unique rewards.

So, see the issue with the general logic you and others are trying to apply here?

maddoctor.2738:

But the most interesting part is that you are giving some very high “grind” requirements, like 100 runs. Others don’t want them as high.

Some people don’t like grind, so they want a different avenue. That’s them, which is fine, and there is probably some option with a lower amount of necessary repetition out there for them. Might be raids, might be something like gauntlet, might be something like fractal currency.

Other people don’t mind putting in the time to grind something out. Having to do 100 runs, or 100 pvp matches won, or whatever.

And then there are those that do a little bit from each option to keep it fresh.

Who are you to determine how someone should enjoy their game play?

I personally never liked Fractales.
But with HOT it seems like, we are forced to do them.
So I think, it would be great, if we could choose our own way of grinding: Fractals or Dungeons or WvW or sPvP.
I really hope, that this new grind-everywhere-system will change!

Well, I am totally ok with grinding for Legendaries.
It may take a long time.
But please let us choose the way of grinding!

This thread has officially become a grind to read.

I just came from WoW after playing it for around 1 month, i usually play it 1-2 months every other year, and every time after trying to complete as much AP as i can and try as much different things as i can, i always come to the realisation that.. “Why… Why am i doing this? Do i get Achievements in real life by doing them here, no, do i get anything from it, no, is it worth all that hundreds upon hundreds of hours to complete, no”

As much as i love my warlock and my Spriest, i just can’t do it. If some parts of the game is grindy that’s fine, some parts should be, but everything? I mean EVERYTHING? xD

You see there are grinds in this game aswell, and i still think that it is necessary, but in WoW you have no idea how much of a grind EVERY LITTLE PART OF IT IS…
Not just gearing up (Which i agree should take time, not like in Gw2) Building up your character should take time.

But every little part of WoW is a huge grind, every little small thing is a grind….
That Gw2 has some grindy parts is okay, same goes for WoW, but it shouldn’t end up taking ALL your time for doing anything, if a game is that grindy, it lacks on several other aspects.

So for me, legendary should stay legendary, and that SHOULD be a grindy part of the game… If i one day get one, most ppl would have one, that takes away the legendary status to a common one. I wouldn’t want that xD

English is not my native language.