Guild Wars 2

“OMG this is WoW111” – no. It will likely be the same as Fear, Stun, Daze, whatever. Not a long, sustained effect like in WoW, but something short like any other control effect we have in GW2 right now.

That’s still bad.

Let’s assume Defiant is fixed. Better yet, let’s assume Defiant is removed from the game. Would it really change anything? Instead of using control effect after control effect to keep a boss stun locked, wouldn’t it be more effect to just get a lot of DPS to kill it as fast as possible? Which is exactly what we do today?

Even if Defiant were reworked, the current PvE in GW2 makes control effects irrelevant. There’s nothing worth interrupting that you couldn’t simply dodge. Between choosing to get a control skill or a DPS skill, there’s no situation in which the DPS would not be a better option.

Taunt, as far as a player ability goes, is nearly useless.

What it does add is one more tool to be used against the players. And honestly, one thing GW2 shares in common with many bad MMORPGs is the reliance on stuns (or effects similar to stuns) to make PvE encounters more than just trading blows with an enemy. Just take a look at the Season 2 and see how many of the enemies there relied mostly on stuns and etc than on any kind of different or unique mechanic.

Stun mechanics in monsters are a crutch designers use when they want to add something to a fight but don’t know what to do. Taunt is basically adding more to that crutch, as opposed to adding something interesting to the game.

(“Oh, ArenaNet is going to change the combat system to CC is more important!” Hah! In the entire game we have today? Of course not, there’s no way they are going to rework everything.)

All I heard was “taunt is bad because CC is bad.”

Nah.

Alright, let’s say taunt is completely useless(doubt it) in PvE. You completely overlooked PvP and WvW. In PvP, taunt will DESTROY dps builds that don’t have a counter as they will fire random attacks at the taunter and mess up ranger lb, warrior hammer, engi stun, Mesmer, etc.

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

Knighthonor.4061:

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

You are forgetting the fact taunts in WoW also affect agro. If you like WoW so darn much, why don’t you play it?

Knighthonor.4061:

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

I think it’s the name. They really needed to call it something like “Provoke” or “Enrage”.

Isn’t this a break of the NDA? Seeing as the only way you would be able to make the claim you do would be if you had actually tried it. And anyone that have access to the HoT testing now are under NDA.

/walk out window

Lazaar.9123:

Knighthonor.4061:

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

You are forgetting the fact taunts in WoW also affect agro. If you like WoW so darn much, why don’t you play it?

If you hate WoW so much, why don’t you quit MMOs altogether?

Test.8734:

Stun mechanics in monsters are a crutch designers use when they want to add something to a fight but don’t know what to do.

Evidence of this? I don’t believe it’s true.

It’s part of an kitten nal.

I remember going to Orr the first time and got pulled and stunned and pushed all over the place. I learned to dodge and use stability and interupt as a response. It made me better at the game.

Since control effects exist in just about every MMO I’ve ever played, what you’re saying is that no dev in any game knows what to do.

I’m not buying it.

Knighthonor.4061:

Lazaar.9123:

Knighthonor.4061:

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

You are forgetting the fact taunts in WoW also affect agro. If you like WoW so darn much, why don’t you play it?

If you hate WoW so much, why don’t you quit MMOs altogether?

That doesn’t even make sense yo.

Vayne.8563:

I remember going to Orr the first time and got pulled and stunned and pushed all over the place.

And we have already seen plenty of complaints here about exactly that aspect of Orr. There’s no better proof than how ArenaNet actually decided to tune it down months ago. The overreliance on control effects is a sign of bad encounter design, and Orr is, indeed, little more than poor design.

Taunt is just one more tool for ArenaNet to use too much and thus continue with the trend of having poor PvE.

lordkrall.7241:

Isn’t this a break of the NDA? Seeing as the only way you would be able to make the claim you do would be if you had actually tried it. And anyone that have access to the HoT testing now are under NDA.

So you think you can only know if something is bad or not after you have experienced it yourself? I do wonder what’s preventing you from jumping from a plane in mid air, then.

Test.8734:

So you think you can only know if something is bad or not after you have experienced it yourself? I do wonder what’s preventing you from jumping from a plane in mid air, then.

People have jumped out of a plane in mid-air. Most of them have died. Thus we have information about it based on history.

There is at this time a grand total of no actual in-game experience or information made available to people outside of the Alpha/Beta tests, and as such it is way too early to claim things like that. Unless of course you are breaking the NDA.

No in-game experience other than a mob has and is using the GW2 Taunt now.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ebon_Knight_Carriadar

lordkrall.7241:

People have jumped out of a plane in mid-air. Most of them have died. Thus we have information about it based on history.

There are a lot of crowd control effects in the game. Most of them are heavily overused in special encounters. Thus we have information about it based on history.

(Although, truth be said, if you really needed to see people jumping from a plane in mid air in order to guess what would happen, I’m not sure I’m the one whose claims are bad.)

I would not be so fast to assume that it would work exactly the same as that though.

Especially considering that it has been in there in the same form since release, so one could question why they would wait until now to add it, if they already had it ready 2,5 years ago.

Test.8734:

There are a lot of crowd control effects in the game. Most of them are heavily overused in special encounters. Thus we have information about it based on history.

That is a rather flawed argument.

It is a bit like saying: We have many guns here, therefore we know exactly how every single gun ever will work.

lordkrall.7241:

It is a bit like saying: We have many guns here, therefore we know exactly how every single gun ever will work.

Your claims are like saying: we know what happens when people jump in middle air from a USAirline plane, but we have no idea what would happen if someone jumped in middle air from an United Airlines plane.

It’s also funny that, other than claiming we can’t know what’s going to happen, you have been unable to counter my arguments stating why I believe that’s what is going to happen.

Lazaar.9123:

Knighthonor.4061:

Lazaar.9123:

Knighthonor.4061:

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

You are forgetting the fact taunts in WoW also affect agro. If you like WoW so darn much, why don’t you play it?

If you hate WoW so much, why don’t you quit MMOs altogether?

That doesn’t even make sense yo.

Now you know how I feel about your original statement.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I remember going to Orr the first time and got pulled and stunned and pushed all over the place.

And we have already seen plenty of complaints here about exactly that aspect of Orr. There’s no better proof than how ArenaNet actually decided to tune it down months ago. The overreliance on control effects is a sign of bad encounter design, and Orr is, indeed, little more than poor design.

Taunt is just one more tool for ArenaNet to use too much and thus continue with the trend of having poor PvE.

lordkrall.7241:

Isn’t this a break of the NDA? Seeing as the only way you would be able to make the claim you do would be if you had actually tried it. And anyone that have access to the HoT testing now are under NDA.

So you think you can only know if something is bad or not after you have experienced it yourself? I do wonder what’s preventing you from jumping from a plane in mid air, then.

We’ve seen proof of this is too hard, please nerf, but even while that was going on, there were plenty of players who were saying please don’t nerf it. People thought it was too hard it got nerfed. Story of MMOs everywhere.

Your interpretation of exactly what that means is just a conclusion you’re drawing. There really wasn’t much wrong with Orr if you played well.

How taunt will work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-ZxaTW4XQ

The only thing I didn’t like about Orr was: undead
All(or close too) games have their undead area, which I always find monotonous, while having nothing to do with the game play

1 word answer as to why it wont be bad:

Pvp

Well its not one word but you get the point

Also there are only 2 mordrem with cc abilities and both have clear tells. If silverwastes wasnt at least an attempt to put new mechanics in pve mobs then I dont know what possibly could be, especially since a lot of other games (that focus on pve too) dont have anything more interesting either.

I wish they would reconsider and either remove taunt entirely or just keep it in PvE. Losing control of your character because of a fear or a taunt is not a fun game mechanic.

OtakuDFifty.2965:

All I heard was “taunt is bad because CC is bad.”

Nah.

That’s what I keep hearing too. Taunt does nothing to this game but make their statement “play the way you want to play” come to life because it adds the option of adding the trinity to your team.

Now all they need to do is make support/healing worth something and balanced on all classes that have healing and bam people might actually not have to be all Zerker all the time anymore and there would be strategies! GASP! OMG someone might actually have to think!

Lazaar.9123:

Knighthonor.4061:

Lazaar.9123:

Knighthonor.4061:

Taunts don’t last long in WoW either. From what I remember they last only 1 second in WoW.

Is the duration and name of the effect really having people tripping this much? Lol.

You are forgetting the fact taunts in WoW also affect agro. If you like WoW so darn much, why don’t you play it?

If you hate WoW so much, why don’t you quit MMOs altogether?

That doesn’t even make sense yo.

If you are a spaceship, then why do you like pineapple?

Taunt will easily have its place in PvE. And I don’t mean for Tanks.

Boss casts large/heavy damage pbaoe.
Taunts the party.
Now you’re all running into the aoe. Probably should’ve brought some stun breaks.

And just continue from there. Applications in PvP and WvW are obvious

Wait, when did orr become hard or a ping pong fest?

Did I miss something?

Did stun breaks and dodging stop working?

Is stability broken?

I remember orr at launch, so much whining… the zone was easy. You just watched the mob and dodged the pull.

To be honest, taunting does have it’s usefulness in PvE, particularly in dungeons where you would need to pull a horde of mobs to you in certain challenges.

Wouldn’t it be great if some1 with both taunt and fear on them at the same time would just run in place flailing his/her weapon around? This would make my day

Solori.6025:

Wait, when did orr become hard or a ping pong fest?

Did I miss something?

Did stun breaks and dodging stop working?

Is stability broken?

People liked ignoring mobs too much. It was annoying that some pulled you. That is all it was.

This thread is not even saying taunt is bad. Just any CC is bad. Which is why the whole argument is pointless. There is CC in the game, whether that is with or without taunt. Adding taunt doesn’t make any difference in PvE. In PvP, where most people don’t cry about CC as it’s simply part of the game, it might become OP even.

Arcaedus.7290:

Wouldn’t it be great if some1 with both taunt and fear on them at the same time would just run in place flailing his/her weapon around? This would make my day

Don’t forget “head explode”

tigirius.9014:

OtakuDFifty.2965:

All I heard was “taunt is bad because CC is bad.”

Nah.

That’s what I keep hearing too. Taunt does nothing to this game but make their statement “play the way you want to play” come to life because it adds the option of adding the trinity to your team.

Now all they need to do is make support/healing worth something and balanced on all classes that have healing and bam people might actually not have to be all Zerker all the time anymore and there would be strategies! GASP! OMG someone might actually have to think!

OMG yes people will have to think! Tank stands in a place and button mashes keyboard, following optimal rotation to keep threat while sleeping, Healer on the other side of the mob, tries to keep tank alive by pressing a couple of healing skills while eating dinner, while carefully trying to avoid passing the tank in the Threat counter.

DPS characters just follow their rotation while semi-afk. OMG such pro skillz and tactics! GASP so much thinking!

Please see this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

Before posting about thinking.

Can we get diminishing returns on CC please?

maddoctor.2738:

tigirius.9014:

OtakuDFifty.2965:

All I heard was “taunt is bad because CC is bad.”

Nah.

That’s what I keep hearing too. Taunt does nothing to this game but make their statement “play the way you want to play” come to life because it adds the option of adding the trinity to your team.

Now all they need to do is make support/healing worth something and balanced on all classes that have healing and bam people might actually not have to be all Zerker all the time anymore and there would be strategies! GASP! OMG someone might actually have to think!

OMG yes people will have to think! Tank stands in a place and button mashes keyboard, following optimal rotation to keep threat while sleeping, Healer on the other side of the mob, tries to keep tank alive by pressing a couple of healing skills while eating dinner, while carefully trying to avoid passing the tank in the Threat counter.

DPS characters just follow their rotation while semi-afk. OMG such pro skillz and tactics! GASP so much thinking!

Please see this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

Before posting about thinking.

I know you are trying to be sarcastic and all, but I will advise you to carefully read your sarcastic post before posting it public,

Because your words may have the opposite intent for your goal.

Knighthonor.4061:

maddoctor.2738:

tigirius.9014:

OtakuDFifty.2965:

All I heard was “taunt is bad because CC is bad.”

Nah.

That’s what I keep hearing too. Taunt does nothing to this game but make their statement “play the way you want to play” come to life because it adds the option of adding the trinity to your team.

Now all they need to do is make support/healing worth something and balanced on all classes that have healing and bam people might actually not have to be all Zerker all the time anymore and there would be strategies! GASP! OMG someone might actually have to think!

OMG yes people will have to think! Tank stands in a place and button mashes keyboard, following optimal rotation to keep threat while sleeping, Healer on the other side of the mob, tries to keep tank alive by pressing a couple of healing skills while eating dinner, while carefully trying to avoid passing the tank in the Threat counter.

DPS characters just follow their rotation while semi-afk. OMG such pro skillz and tactics! GASP so much thinking!

Please see this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

Before posting about thinking.

I know you are trying to be sarcastic and all, but I will advise you to carefully read your sarcastic post before posting it public,

Because your words may have the opposite intent for your goal.

The video is a response to the post claiming “there is no thinking” in the game. He was also claiming that trinity will make people “think more”, while it certainly won’t, trinity has the opposite effect in “thinking”.

Test.8734:

Let’s assume Defiant is fixed. Better yet, let’s assume Defiant is removed from the game. Would it really change anything? Instead of using control effect after control effect to keep a boss stun locked, wouldn’t it be more effect to just get a lot of DPS to kill it as fast as possible? Which is exactly what we do today?

Even if Defiant were reworked, the current PvE in GW2 makes control effects irrelevant. There’s nothing worth interrupting that you couldn’t simply dodge. Between choosing to get a control skill or a DPS skill, there’s no situation in which the DPS would not be a better option.

Taunt, as far as a player ability goes, is nearly useless.

Not necessarily.

We don’t know what changes they’ve made to the AI, Defiance or mob design yet, nor do we know what mechanics these new bosses have.

So Taunt, as a player ability goes, is untested.

Test.8734:

What it does add is one more tool to be used against the players. And honestly, one thing GW2 shares in common with many bad MMORPGs is the reliance on stuns (or effects similar to stuns) to make PvE encounters more than just trading blows with an enemy. Just take a look at the Season 2 and see how many of the enemies there relied mostly on stuns and etc than on any kind of different or unique mechanic.

Stun mechanics in monsters are a crutch designers use when they want to add something to a fight but don’t know what to do. Taunt is basically adding more to that crutch, as opposed to adding something interesting to the game.

You claim that taunt is being added for this reason without knowing what mechanics are being added to the game.

ANet have shown that they’re able to design encounters with interesting mechanics. The Lovers in AC Story and the Snowblind Fractal for example.

Their general problem tends to be, though, that they don’t enforce the mechanics enough so they can be brute-forced with sheer damage.

Test.8734:

(“Oh, ArenaNet is going to change the combat system to CC is more important!” Hah! In the entire game we have today? Of course not, there’s no way they are going to rework everything.)

Probably not, but who knows.

maddoctor.2738:

Knighthonor.4061:

maddoctor.2738:

tigirius.9014:

OtakuDFifty.2965:

All I heard was “taunt is bad because CC is bad.”

Nah.

That’s what I keep hearing too. Taunt does nothing to this game but make their statement “play the way you want to play” come to life because it adds the option of adding the trinity to your team.

Now all they need to do is make support/healing worth something and balanced on all classes that have healing and bam people might actually not have to be all Zerker all the time anymore and there would be strategies! GASP! OMG someone might actually have to think!

OMG yes people will have to think! Tank stands in a place and button mashes keyboard, following optimal rotation to keep threat while sleeping, Healer on the other side of the mob, tries to keep tank alive by pressing a couple of healing skills while eating dinner, while carefully trying to avoid passing the tank in the Threat counter.

DPS characters just follow their rotation while semi-afk. OMG such pro skillz and tactics! GASP so much thinking!

Please see this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

Before posting about thinking.

I know you are trying to be sarcastic and all, but I will advise you to carefully read your sarcastic post before posting it public,

Because your words may have the opposite intent for your goal.

The video is a response to the post claiming “there is no thinking” in the game. He was also claiming that trinity will make people “think more”, while it certainly won’t, trinity has the opposite effect in “thinking”.

you mean besides the #1 smashing Zerker zerg meta we have right now? yeah I think you might wanna reconsider your words just as they warned you …mmhmm smh

Apparently using memorised rotations doesn’t require skill when all players have the same output, but suddenly does require skill when they have different output.

Also, rofl at Orr being too hard. It was slightly difficult back at launch when the tp wasn’t up yet and all my gear at 70 was a mix of level 50-60 whites and blues so I couldn’t deal or take any damage and I couldn’t even kite due to the larger number of ranged mobs, but with level appropriate gear the only difference to any other zone was that you couldn’t dps race every mob, just most of them.

Vayne.8563:

Your interpretation of exactly what that means is just a conclusion you’re drawing.

OMG, do you mean interpretations are conclusions people draw? MIND BLOW!!!!!

C’mon, Vayne. That’s as weak a reply as your patented “but that’s just your opinion”. Feel free to try to point flaws in my conclusion, preferably without using your favourite argument of “people say that’s not true”.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Probably not, but who knows.

And if ArenaNet is probably not going to rework the encounter design in the whole game, that means taunt as a player ability is as useless as any other kind of crowd control we have. Reworking Defiance is not enough, and even improving the AI is not enough: with the abilities the mobs have, there’s no situation in which it would be better to CC them (even if it worked) than to just kill them. This is not something ArenaNet could fix by making generalized changes; they would have to tweak enemy by enemy. And do you honestly believe ArenaNet will do that?

Test.8734:

And if ArenaNet is probably not going to rework the encounter design in the whole game, that means taunt as a player ability is as useless as any other kind of crowd control we have. Reworking Defiance is not enough, and even improving the AI is not enough: with the abilities the mobs have, there’s no situation in which it would be better to CC them (even if it worked) than to just kill them. This is not something ArenaNet could fix by making generalized changes; they would have to tweak enemy by enemy. And do you honestly believe ArenaNet will do that?

Like I said, they probably won’t go through the core game and adjust the encounters – they’ve said they won’t be doing vast changes like the Twilight Arbour path, after all – but who knows.

However, even if they don’t rework all encounters in the game, if the new content and encounters are constructed different then taunt and every other CC will become useful – at least in the new content.

Like I said, even in the core content, some encounters have interesting design. The Lovers in one such encounter where control could have been a driving force where the encounter succeeds or not (at level appropriateness, we found control was very handy to have around, making the encounter easier).

However, the mechanic isn’t enforced nearly enough; it’s something that can be ignored through sheer damage when you reach max level.

TheDaiBish.9735:

However, even if they don’t rework all encounters in the game, if the new content and encounters are constructed different then taunt and every other CC will become useful – at least in the new content.

Which leaves us with a new status effect that is useless in everything we have today. And even in the best case scenario – that the new content will be different from what we have today so CC will become useful – what does taunt add that the current status effects don’t already do? Pulling an enemy to a player can be accomplished by Pull. Interrupting an enemy so it doesn’t use a powerful attack can be accomplished by a lot of effects (stun, daze, etc). Even if CC worked and were useful, Taunt would be reduntant to what we already have.

Test.8734:

TheDaiBish.9735:

However, even if they don’t rework all encounters in the game, if the new content and encounters are constructed different then taunt and every other CC will become useful – at least in the new content.

Which leaves us with a new status effect that is useless in everything we have today. And even in the best case scenario – that the new content will be different from what we have today so CC will become useful – what does taunt add that the current status effects don’t already do? Pulling an enemy to a player can be accomplished by Pull. Interrupting an enemy so it doesn’t use a powerful attack can be accomplished by a lot of effects (stun, daze, etc). Even if CC worked and were useful, Taunt would be reduntant to what we already have.

How about boss taunting player out of stack or in area effect. Taunts aren’t only given to players mobs will have it and if its common it might change stacking.

Not a pro trinity guy but players do tend to ignore mobs or just roll over them. Bosses themselves are meh we need player aggro dispersion, stacking punishment, mindless spamming punishment. Bring the E in pve, make it more then fighting mobs, something like vines covering the field,bleeding and CCing if players don’t “burn” roots or mobs dodging actively.

“PvE that doesn’t suck”.

Nephziel.6053:

How about boss taunting player out of stack or in area effect. Taunts aren’t only given to players mobs will have it and if its common it might change stacking.

What’s the difference between a boss taunting a player into an area effect, or a boss using Pull to bring a player into an area of effect? In both situations, the enemy is interrupting whatever it is the player is doing and moving the player closer to itself.

Duration.. If taunt is like fear it will have duration and since is a condition stun breaks wont work, so you need condi cleanse. So now players will have to consider changing something for condi cleanses… Also it depends how high is it on condi cleanse priority (not sure how its called but conditions are prioritized in order when cleansed) single condi cleanse might not be enough. Pair it up with mobs that apply a lot of CC and buttocks load of condis and wham a bit more challenging fight.

Nephziel.6053:

Duration.. If taunt is like fear it will have duration and since is a condition stun breaks wont work, so you need condi cleanse.

Stun breaker works on Fear, too. Check in game or in the wiki if you don’t believe on me.

Test.8734:

Which leaves us with a new status effect that is useless in everything we have today. And even in the best case scenario – that the new content will be different from what we have today so CC will become useful – what does taunt add that the current status effects don’t already do?

The ‘pull’ aspect of taunt isn’t the only aspect.

If a player – or boss – gets taunted while in melee, they’re forced to auto-attack.

This opens up boss mechanics – or player usage – that can make good use of conditions such as torment (the person is forced to move, though I’m unsure if pull triggers the bonus damage) and confusion, as well as boons such as retaliation.

Test.8734:

Nephziel.6053:

How about boss taunting player out of stack or in area effect. Taunts aren’t only given to players mobs will have it and if its common it might change stacking.

What’s the difference between a boss taunting a player into an area effect, or a boss using Pull to bring a player into an area of effect? In both situations, the enemy is interrupting whatever it is the player is doing and moving the player closer to itself.

One, the player has no way of avoiding other than dodging .
The second the player can’t dodge but can be removed by a good support ally.