Guild Wars 2

So now we know each dragon has a “weakness”
hahahaha ok so Mordremoths weakness is pulling a “Freddy Krueger” on him eh?
So Zhaitans “weakness” is battleships and huge cannons?
Oh boy what luck we have they were invented just in time for his awakening else there would be no chance of winning ever.

Reminds me of something I once saw on youtube:
One guy runs in and says “I discovered the zombies weakness”, the other asks “what is it?” and he answers “bullets”.

Bubbles weakness is salt. Lots of salt.

So Bubbles is a sea slug? I really hope that one is next. I like me some slug control.

zenleto.6179:

So Bubbles is a sea slug? I really hope that one is next. I like me some slug control.

That or an entirely new area that wasn’t covered in GW1.

Now that would get the big boys quivering with anticipation in their gaming nappies. Brand, brand new areas would be sweet. Just a fantasy but you have to keep up the dreams.

Quite frankly, I think the idea of these dragons having specific weaknesses is ridiculous. Theres more than one way to skin an apple.

Because of this little point that was dropped into HoT, I feel like every expansion is going to revolve around the same plot trope. “Finding the weakness”.

I would have much rathered the dragons have no weakness, and the only way to kill them is with brute force, like we did with Zhaitan. According to ArenaNet’s lore writers the dragons are described to think, and exist in a way which we could never understand, so why is a concept as simplistic as a “weakness” being applied to these creatures which are supposedly so alien?

Im hoping they retcon or forget about this “weakness” deal. Why are Tyrians trying to progress magic and engineering in order to fight future dragons, if all we have to do is hunt around for their weakness?

I hear they’re getting M. Night Shamalayan to write the story for the expansion that’ll introduce Bubbles the oceanic dragon. I also hear that the dragon’s weakness will be water.

Zhaitan had weaknesses and it wasn’t the brute force. The final fight with him is actually when he is already weakened.

Some people may need to do the PS again (including myself before anyone starts).. Zhaitan had a weakness and that was how easily his energy supply could be cut off. He was weakened enough that brute force could do the trick.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

I hear they’re getting M. Night Shamalayan to write the story for the expansion that’ll introduce Bubbles the oceanic dragon. I also hear that the dragon’s weakness will be water.

Here’s a twist: quaggans are the water dragon’s minions.

Quick! More backpacks!

Argon.1563:

Quite frankly, I think the idea of these dragons having specific weaknesses is ridiculous. Theres more than one way to skin an apple.

Because of this little point that was dropped into HoT, I feel like every expansion is going to revolve around the same plot trope. “Finding the weakness”.

I would have much rathered the dragons have no weakness, and the only way to kill them is with brute force, like we did with Zhaitan. According to ArenaNet’s lore writers the dragons are described to think, and exist in a way which we could never understand, so why is a concept as simplistic as a “weakness” being applied to these creatures which are supposedly so alien?

Im hoping they retcon or forget about this “weakness” deal. Why are Tyrians trying to progress magic and engineering in order to fight future dragons, if all we have to do is hunt around for their weakness?

All that research is to find such weaknesses. With that said Batman wouldn’t need to find them, he’s mastered 127 different martial arts, ambidextrous, master strategist and in peak human condition as far as strength, stamina, agility, and everything else goes.

…I just hope we run into a dragon whose weakness is martial arts just so we have an excuse to learn martial arts masteries.

Dragons common weaknesses are their laziness, arrogance, and stupidity.
All of them share these same weaknesses.

If they just work harder and act before other races can react instead of just waiting in their liar doing nothing, Tyria would have fallen ages ago.

As for stupidity, the only reason Mordremoth lost is because for god-know-what reason, Mordremoth wants to CAPTURE Trehearne instead of just killing him like he did to Faleon, and allowed Trehearne to grant connection to Modremoth’s own mind, which would have been imposible if Mordremoth didn’t leave Trehearne alive.

Aomine.5012:

Dragons common weaknesses are their laziness, arrogence, annd stupidity.
All of them share these same weaknesses.

If they just work harder and act before other races can react instead of just waiting in their liar doing nothing, Tyria would have fallen ages ago.

As for stupidity, the only reason Mordremoth lost is because for god-know-what reason, Mordremoth wants to CAPTURE Trehearne instead of just killing him like he did to Faleon, and allowed Trehearne to grant connection to Modremoth’s own mind, which would have been imposible if Mordremoth didn’t leave Trehearne alive.

Mordremoth’s real weakness was his love for Trehearne, and his desire to bond with the object of his affection.

Ayrilana.1396:

Here’s a twist: quaggans are the water dragon’s minions.

That would be funny, however the dragons minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons (that is why there are no risen Sylvari), however there are risen Quaggans.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Mordremoth’s real weakness was his love for Trehearne, and his desire to bond with the object of his affection.

Love-heart of thorns. It all makes sense now.

Argon.1563:

Quite frankly, I think the idea of these dragons having specific weaknesses is ridiculous. Theres more than one way to skin an apple.

Because of this little point that was dropped into HoT, I feel like every expansion is going to revolve around the same plot trope. “Finding the weakness”.

I would have much rathered the dragons have no weakness, and the only way to kill them is with brute force, like we did with Zhaitan. According to ArenaNet’s lore writers the dragons are described to think, and exist in a way which we could never understand, so why is a concept as simplistic as a “weakness” being applied to these creatures which are supposedly so alien?

Im hoping they retcon or forget about this “weakness” deal. Why are Tyrians trying to progress magic and engineering in order to fight future dragons, if all we have to do is hunt around for their weakness?

But brute force campaigns require the story to be large scale, like the PS after the Pact’s formation, which would require actual resources being put toward the story. Why do that when you can put almost zero resources toward the story and have everything revolve around half a dozen cardboard cutouts?

Yeah this ‘weakness’ thing is just dumb and pointless. It makes no sense specially since we already took down a dragon without using any particular weakness whatsoever. What’s even worse is that Zhaitan was so much harder to defeat that Mordremoth but the story continues to push this idea of him being so much more powerful than Z when he clearly isnt.

Rikimaru.7890:

So now we know each dragon has a “weakness”
hahahaha ok so Mordremoths weakness is pulling a “Freddy Krueger” on him eh?
So Zhaitans “weakness” is battleships and huge cannons?
Oh boy what luck we have they were invented just in time for his awakening else there would be no chance of winning ever.

Reminds me of something I once saw on youtube:
One guy runs in and says “I discovered the zombies weakness”, the other asks “what is it?” and he answers “bullets”.

I wonder what Zhaitan’s weakness actually was. O_o

Zhaitan had to bend over before the might of “2”.

Templar.3418:

Rikimaru.7890:

So now we know each dragon has a “weakness”
hahahaha ok so Mordremoths weakness is pulling a “Freddy Krueger” on him eh?
So Zhaitans “weakness” is battleships and huge cannons?
Oh boy what luck we have they were invented just in time for his awakening else there would be no chance of winning ever.

Reminds me of something I once saw on youtube:
One guy runs in and says “I discovered the zombies weakness”, the other asks “what is it?” and he answers “bullets”.

I wonder what Zhaitan’s weakness actually was. O_o

He didn’t have any specific “weakness”. You know that. It’s a concept they came up with for HOT and they didn’t even bother to retcon it so it would be consistent for Zhaitan. All it would have taken is a little dialogue:

Player: “Now we know the dragons have a weakness.”

Braham: “Hmm… I wonder .. what was Zhaitan’s weakness?”

Player: “Good question! I was wondering the same thing.”

Taimi: “It says here his weakness was love and friendship. We defeated him with love and friendship.”

Braham: “Ah, of course. Now it all makes sense.”

Although the “Deus Ex Machina” ending is true and strong in this one, I have some additions to do.

1) We just used the same weapon Mordremoth used against the Dream in the retconed Sylvari Personal Story. (we all know it was retconed. It was a Zaithan minion. The Pale Tree states that)
2) Zaithan weakness was his hunger for magic, death and shadow (his aspects). We used artifacts, sink his shipline, destroyed his ossuary, purified Orr, and lots of other stuff so we can get to him and destroy him easily, with anti-magic cannons developed by tenths of ppl minds. I consider the story as whole pretty epic, specially if you play with all races. We did find his weakness at the Asura Storyline: he likes to eat magic, interrupt that and it will be a win.
3) WHY THE HECK the Pact didn’t pull the same strategy?! Mordremoth also consumes magic (Waypoints byebye events). And in his case, Nature and Mind Magic, as stated by the Priory Magister teaching in Living Season 2. Fighting those aspects, like burning the blighted trees spread on Maguuma (we only do this twice), teaching Sylvaris how to fight back, searching for artifacts, purifying his corruption… this would all work again.

and then comes the revelation: remember the Renown Hearts? The Dynamic Events? The Living World (not story, world)? Dungeons?

Yeah. They are all your Personal Story, they are linked. Each one provides little info/development/lore… but together, they all make a huge sense. Because they are in a timeline, as you travel through Tyria, the low level maps are in a earlier timeline than hi level maps. Some stuff you see in Kessex Hills are used later in Bloodtide Coast and on.

That’s why the story in Heart of Thorns is lacking stuff. Because those are not stuff that Heart of Thorns provide. There is only one Meta Event per map. It doesn’t teach you the lore very well, because you don’t percieve the map as a whole when you finish it, because… like Bill Murray… you are stucked into an infinite loop, then never finishing them.

And the summary of story is.. were lazy, we have no idea what to do so lets come up with some uninspired stuff and call it a day. People will still love our game and continue buying shiny bundle bandit stuff from gemstore so it all doesnt matter.

jeezlaweez.6810:

1) We just used the same weapon Mordremoth used against the Dream in the retconed Sylvari Personal Story. (we all know it was retconed. It was a Zaithan minion. The Pale Tree states that)

Wait. I’m not sure I understand you. Are you saying the Sylvari were originally described as Zhaitan’s minions? Can you point me to anything that shows that? I don’t disbelieve you. I just haven’t heard of it before and it’s interesting. I didn’t notice anything in the pre-hot gw2 personal story that indicated this, but maybe I missed it.

zenleto.6179:

Some people may need to do the PS again (including myself before anyone starts).. Zhaitan had a weakness and that was how easily his energy supply could be cut off. He was weakened enough that brute force could do the trick.

I wonder why people keep ignoring this poster? Geez, people.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

jeezlaweez.6810:

1) We just used the same weapon Mordremoth used against the Dream in the retconed Sylvari Personal Story. (we all know it was retconed. It was a Zaithan minion. The Pale Tree states that)

Wait. I’m not sure I understand you. Are you saying the Sylvari were originally described as Zhaitan’s minions? Can you point me to anything that shows that? I don’t disbelieve you. I just haven’t heard of it before and it’s interesting. I didn’t notice anything in the pre-hot gw2 personal story that indicated this, but maybe I missed it.

The Shadow of the Dragon in the sylvari starting instance was originally described as a manifestation of Zhaitan’s influence.

AegisRunestone.8672:

zenleto.6179:

Some people may need to do the PS again (including myself before anyone starts).. Zhaitan had a weakness and that was how easily his energy supply could be cut off. He was weakened enough that brute force could do the trick.

I wonder why people keep ignoring this poster? Geez, people.

I don’t think they’re ignoring it. It’s just that what you’re describing there is… attrition.
And that’s something any living creature is susceptible to, not just Zhaitan.

The Elder Dragons are described in the wiki as “forces of nature and primordial forces from the view of Tyrians, the dragons seem no different and just as unstoppable as a blizzard or earthquake.”

Clearly, they’re not unstoppable so the question is: what does it take to stop a dragon? It needs to be something significant or you run the risk of turning a “force of nature” into just some big monster that you can kill like any other monster, only with more force.

That’s where, I think, they made a mistake with Zhaitan. They depicted him as just another big monster you beat by applying attrition until he’s weak, then hit him hard. In doing this, they down-graded his facebook status from “force of nature” to “it’s complicated.”

I also think that’s a mistake they’re trying to remedy with HOT and the whole “weakness” thing. They’re trying to make the dragons seem so powerful again that no amount of physical force can stop them – unless you find the Achilles heel.
(That’s exactly how DS is described: as a distraction so the player can attack M’s Achilles heel: his mind.)
They’re trying to make the dragons again seem like forces of nature. Not completely unstoppable, but requiring something above and beyond what you would use on any other beastie.
At least, that’s my take on it.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

AegisRunestone.8672:

zenleto.6179:

Some people may need to do the PS again (including myself before anyone starts).. Zhaitan had a weakness and that was how easily his energy supply could be cut off. He was weakened enough that brute force could do the trick.

I wonder why people keep ignoring this poster? Geez, people.

I don’t think they’re ignoring it. It’s just that what you’re describing there is… attrition.
And that’s something any living creature is susceptible to, not just Zhaitan.

The Elder Dragons are described in the wiki as “forces of nature and primordial forces from the view of Tyrians, the dragons seem no different and just as unstoppable as a blizzard or earthquake.”

Clearly, they’re not unstoppable so the question is: what does it take to stop a dragon? It needs to be something significant or you run the risk of turning a “force of nature” into just some big monster that you can kill like any other monster, only with more force.

That’s where, I think, they made a mistake with Zhaitan. They depicted him as just another big monster you beat by applying attrition until he’s weak, then hit him hard. In doing this, they down-graded his facebook status from “force of nature” to “it’s complicated.”

I also think that’s a mistake they’re trying to remedy with HOT and the whole “weakness” thing. They’re trying to make the dragons seem so powerful again that no amount of physical force can stop them – unless you find the Achilles heel.
(That’s exactly how DS is described: as a distraction so the player can attack M’s Achilles heel: his mind.)
They’re trying to make the dragons again seem like forces of nature. Not completely unstoppable, but requiring something above and beyond what you would use on any other beastie.
At least, that’s my take on it.

If you talk to Laranthir during the Mouth fight, he says that DS takes place after Hearts and Minds. It really doesn’t make any sense, but whatever.

Daralii.8940:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

AegisRunestone.8672:

zenleto.6179:

Some people may need to do the PS again (including myself before anyone starts).. Zhaitan had a weakness and that was how easily his energy supply could be cut off. He was weakened enough that brute force could do the trick.

I wonder why people keep ignoring this poster? Geez, people.

I don’t think they’re ignoring it. It’s just that what you’re describing there is… attrition.
And that’s something any living creature is susceptible to, not just Zhaitan.

The Elder Dragons are described in the wiki as “forces of nature and primordial forces from the view of Tyrians, the dragons seem no different and just as unstoppable as a blizzard or earthquake.”

Clearly, they’re not unstoppable so the question is: what does it take to stop a dragon? It needs to be something significant or you run the risk of turning a “force of nature” into just some big monster that you can kill like any other monster, only with more force.

That’s where, I think, they made a mistake with Zhaitan. They depicted him as just another big monster you beat by applying attrition until he’s weak, then hit him hard. In doing this, they down-graded his facebook status from “force of nature” to “it’s complicated.”

I also think that’s a mistake they’re trying to remedy with HOT and the whole “weakness” thing. They’re trying to make the dragons seem so powerful again that no amount of physical force can stop them – unless you find the Achilles heel.
(That’s exactly how DS is described: as a distraction so the player can attack M’s Achilles heel: his mind.)
They’re trying to make the dragons again seem like forces of nature. Not completely unstoppable, but requiring something above and beyond what you would use on any other beastie.
At least, that’s my take on it.

If you talk to Laranthir during the Mouth fight, he says that DS takes place after Hearts and Minds. It really doesn’t make any sense, but whatever.

Maybe it’s like the “6 Days A Sacrifice” game where events in different points in “time” are all happening simultaneously.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Mordremoth’s real weakness was his love for Trehearne, and his desire to bond with the object of his affection.

This honestly makes more sense than the actual story

The whole A Weakness plot point doesn’t bother me, but the way it was introduced was underwhelming. The Rata Novus detour was already annoying since there was supposed to be a “sense of urgency” to rescue our friends, and it was made worse by the fact that we didn’t learn anything useful. We already knew dragons had weaknesses and could be killed… because we killed one.

It’s understandable that the Rata Novans didn’t know the specific weaknesses, but they could’ve at least been hinted at, like “our research indicates this dragon is friggin huge so attacking its body probably isn’t an option,” and/or “maybe a dragon’s connection to its minions can be used against it.” Something beyond “yeah they can be killed but we dunno how, lol.” Then it would’ve been less of a butt-pull at the end when we’re suddenly like OH I KNOW LET’S ATTACK THE MIND DRAGON’S MIND, and Trahearne magically gains the ability to teleport our brains into Mord’s, while Mord gets huffy but does nothing to stop it.

Templar.3418:

Rikimaru.7890:

So now we know each dragon has a “weakness”
hahahaha ok so Mordremoths weakness is pulling a “Freddy Krueger” on him eh?
So Zhaitans “weakness” is battleships and huge cannons?
Oh boy what luck we have they were invented just in time for his awakening else there would be no chance of winning ever.

Reminds me of something I once saw on youtube:
One guy runs in and says “I discovered the zombies weakness”, the other asks “what is it?” and he answers “bullets”.

I wonder what Zhaitan’s weakness actually was. O_o

His weakness was death.

So we killed him.

Argon.1563:

Quite frankly, I think the idea of these dragons having specific weaknesses is ridiculous. Theres more than one way to skin an apple.

Because of this little point that was dropped into HoT, I feel like every expansion is going to revolve around the same plot trope. “Finding the weakness”.

I would have much rathered the dragons have no weakness, and the only way to kill them is with brute force, like we did with Zhaitan. According to ArenaNet’s lore writers the dragons are described to think, and exist in a way which we could never understand, so why is a concept as simplistic as a “weakness” being applied to these creatures which are supposedly so alien?

Im hoping they retcon or forget about this “weakness” deal. Why are Tyrians trying to progress magic and engineering in order to fight future dragons, if all we have to do is hunt around for their weakness?

A physical weakness doesn’t care less about how their thought processes work. they can be as alien as they want, but if they haev a “kryptonite” then their alien minds won’t make a bit of difference.

AegisRunestone.8672:

zenleto.6179:

Some people may need to do the PS again (including myself before anyone starts).. Zhaitan had a weakness and that was how easily his energy supply could be cut off. He was weakened enough that brute force could do the trick.

I wonder why people keep ignoring this poster? Geez, people.

This does make sense, but the problem is that ANet hasn’t bothered to explain any of this, in or out of story. While its clear they’ve done some retconning, they could have smoothed things over with a few lines of dialogue:

“What was Zhaitan’s Weakness?”

“Well, Zhaitan couldn’t feed on ley line energy, and had to have his minions feed on magical artifacts; furthermore, they had to do all that feeding for him. Stop the flow of artifacts, destroy his minions that fed him, and he becomes starved and weakened, thus vulnerable. Mordremoth was able to feed more directly, so other means were necessary.”

“I thought the shadow of the dragon in the Dream was Zhaitan, that’s what we were told!”

“I’m sorry, child, but we felt it necessary to hide the truth, that we sylvari were meant to serve Mordremoth. A lie, but a necessary one.”

Heck, I still want to know what happened to that other Pale Tree we hear about in the sylvari personal story. I’m more than a little surprised that there is no mention of it whatsoever in HoT.

This was explained by someone else but I can’t find the post. I’ll just try to explain what I remember.

Zhaitan’s weakness really was death, but not in a sarcastic way. During a personal story branch there’s an npc that explains that the cannon you use to kill him takes necromantic energy, repolarizes it, then fires it back.

He gorges on artifacts and builds up necromantic magic, so you kill him with poisoned necromantic magic.

I can almost guarantee this wasn’t intended, as it requires enormous foresight, but it works.

So what the dragon best at turns out to be the dragon’s weakness then?

So far both dragons go down in the same type of fashion: killed by their own strength.

Let’s start guessing what’s other 4 dragons best at then.
Maybe Ice will kill Jormag.
Fire would kill Promodius.
Water would kill Bauble.
Crystal will kill Krik.

Sounds logical.

mpif.8504:

Ayrilana.1396:

Here’s a twist: quaggans are the water dragon’s minions.

That would be funny, however the dragons minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons (that is why there are no risen Sylvari), however there are risen Quaggans.

And icebrood quaggans.

Aomine.5012:

So what the dragon best at turns out to be the dragon’s weakness then?

So far both dragons go down in the same type of fashion: killed by their own strength.

Let’s start guessing what’s other 4 dragons best at then.
Maybe Ice will kill Jormag.
Fire would kill Promodius.
Water would kill Bauble.
Crystal will kill Krik.

Sounds logical.

Some people have theorized that it’s related to their secondary spheres. Shadow for Zhaitan via Gorr’s tech, mind for Mordremoth via all the Dream crap.

It actually seems like the Dragons’ weaknesses are connected with their biggest strength.

Zhaitan’s strength was the ability to raise corpses from the dead – furthermore his own body was composed from the corpses of other Dragons and thus his biggest weakness was his physical form as we were able to tackle him head on.

Mordremoth’s biggest strength seemed to be the ability to influence others and control minds through the Dream and thus his true spirit was rooted there. He could always regrow himself should his physical form be destroyed (Mouth of Mordremoth) and to completely finish him we had to go inside the dream and destroy his true form. In conclusion his biggest weakness was his mind that was sheltered within the Dream.

The “we know dragons have a weakness” was pointless (we just killed Zhaitan), “wwe know dragons have a unique weakness” is helpful but getting from that to “we know Mord’s weakness” was the weakest part of the story to me (especially since my char came up with it). I was like O_o why do I know this will work? Sure make a guess but standing around saying “yay we solved it” was just nonsense (just just made it up on the spot with no evidence or even pointers).

If Zhaitan had been killed by using a zombie to charge the lazer (like we’re using his aspect against him) I could see the link, but Zhaitan was killed by poisoned magic which ALL dragons consume… Although you could make a point that Zhaitan was Lord of Poison so it was using his aspect against him – but this wasn’t explained.

I played the whole Personal Story only once 3 years ago, and even I can still remember Zhaitan’s weakness. It was made very clear…

His weakness was the Sylvari race as a whole, because Sylvari could not be corrupted by Zhaitan.

This part has always stuck to me because I previously made the theory that all Sylvari were minions of Mordremoth, and it somehow turned out to be true. I dont know if the story devs had already planned it, or if they got the idea from my post though.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Jan-21-Interview-with-Colin-Mike-Z/first#post3526672
This was a while ago, before Scarlet was even revealed to be working for Mordremoth.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

I played the whole Personal Story only once 3 years ago, and even I can still remember Zhaitan’s weakness. It was made very clear…

His weakness was the Sylvari race as a whole, because Sylvari could not be corrupted by Zhaitan.

This part has always stuck to me because I previously made the theory that all Sylvari were minions of Mordremoth, and it somehow turned out to be true. I dont know if the story devs had already planned it, or if they got the idea from my post though.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Jan-21-Interview-with-Colin-Mike-Z/first#post3526672
This was a while ago, before Scarlet was even revealed to be working for Mordremoth.

So basically you’re saying all the dragon’s weaknesses are Sylvari?

Because it seems Sylvari is the only race that can connect people into dreams and kill Mordy. And it is also Zhaitan’s weaknesses?

How convenient.

eMKay.4028:

It actually seems like the Dragons’ weaknesses are connected with their biggest strength.

Zhaitan’s strength was the ability to raise corpses from the dead – furthermore his own body was composed from the corpses of other Dragons and thus his biggest weakness was his physical form as we were able to tackle him head on.

Mordremoth’s biggest strength seemed to be the ability to influence others and control minds through the Dream and thus his true spirit was rooted there. He could always regrow himself should his physical form be destroyed (Mouth of Mordremoth) and to completely finish him we had to go inside the dream and destroy his true form. In conclusion his biggest weakness was his mind that was sheltered within the Dream.

The confusing thing is that, according to Laranthir in DS, he’s continually regrowing his body anyway even though he SHOULD be dead. He says that, even though we killed Mordremoth’s mind, his body is still present and acting consciously, in which case… what was the point of any point of Hearts and Minds? Did it accomplish ANYTHING?

Are you sure that Mordremoth is really dead ? I’ve see him falling but I’ve never find any corpse :p

mpif.8504:

Ayrilana.1396:

Here’s a twist: quaggans are the water dragon’s minions.

That would be funny, however the dragons minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons (that is why there are no risen Sylvari), however there are risen Quaggans.

Actually, Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha from Crucible of Eternity’s story and explorable modes would like to have a word with you about that. They are, or were, living proof that beings can be corrupted by multiple dragons; in Subject Alpha’s case this gave it the ability to control various dragon minions to do its bidding.

The reason sylvari weren’t corrupted by Zhaitan was because of their link to the Dream thanks to Pale Tree acting as the conduit, which protected them from dragon energy. The whole point of the Shadow of the Dragon’s attack on the Grove in LW Season 2 was to kill the Pale Tree to stop her from acting as said conduit and thus make sylvari more susceptible to Mordremoth’s influence. However, this plan worked only partially as we did manage to drive the Shadow away before it could finish its mission but not before its and its minions’ attack had already severely weakened the Pale Tree, which made the sylvari on the Pact fleet able to be taken by Mordremoth once they crossed into his domain as seen in the episode 8 ending cinematic.

One of the achievements for the “Buried Insight” mission in HoT story (when we first visit Rata Novus) includes finding and talking to an injured Mordrem Guard. Thanks to us being so deep underground, Mordremoth’s call is weaker (as stated by Canach and the sylvari PC), and this also affects the MG who briefly manages to regain his senses and chats with us, expressing horror at what he’s done…until Mordremoth’s call takes over again and we’re forced to put him out of his misery.

The mission proves that Mordremoth couldn’t fully corrupt sylvari; he only managed to invade their minds by using their link to the Dream and Wyld/Dark Hunts (which the Dream/Nightmare gives Dreamers/Nightmare Courtiers) and manipulated them via his siren song to fight for him. His grip on them lessened if they got out of his area of influence (as seen briefly in Rata Novus). This seems to heavily imply that with Mordremoth gone, the Mordrem Guard should return back to their senses now that the Jungle Dragon is no longer sending its call to influence their actions.

The sylvari’s connection to the Dream via the Pale Tree might not be the only reason why Zhaitan or Mordremoth couldn’t corrupt them fully. There’s a high likelihood that the seeds of various Pale Trees (which Ronan found in the cave) may have been purified by the Forgotten, which partly explained why the Pale Tree, while being tied to Mordremoth, didn’t become a Blighting Tree. We also know from Glint’s story that once a dragon minion is freed from dragon corruption via a purification ritual, it cannot be recorrupted again (part of the reason why Kralkatorrik wanted to kill Glint instead of just re-enslaving her under his will again). Perhaps this means that the offspring of freed dragon minions (Glint’s children and the sylvari) can’t be corrupted either, which would mean that Glint’s other children could still plausibly be on the heroes’ side if we ever found them and/or if they hadn’t been killed off by now.

We likely won’t learn the full truth about this matter until we learn what happened with Malyck, his tree and his people (as they seem to not have a connection to the Dream) as well as just what exactly the Dream and the Nightmare are supposed to be since HoT dodged the bullet on both of those dangling plot threads.

jeezlaweez.6810:

1) We just used the same weapon Mordremoth used against the Dream in the retconed Sylvari Personal Story. (we all know it was retconed. It was a Zaithan minion. The Pale Tree states that)

I’m not entirely sure if this was meant to be a retcon. We’ve seen hints ever since launch that there’s more to the sylvari lore than meets the eye, not to mention Caithe’s somewhat cryptic lines throughout and the barest of hints at Mordremoth (via some of Subject Alpha’s attacks in Crucible of Eternity). It’s entirely possible, however, that the circumstances of Caithe and Faolain’s separation and the death of Wynne may not have been fully thought out at launch and were later retrofitted into existing lore.

Lorewise the Shadow of the Dragon thing makes sense, though. The only people from whom we really learn about it are Caithe and the Pale Tree, both of whom, as per Living World season 2, have an agenda to keep the sylvari in the dark about their true origins, so they could’ve plausibly made the Shadow represent Zhaitan who was the more immediate threat due to Risen activity throughout Tyria. We’ve also later been told by devs that Ree Soesbee, who was mainly responsible for sylvari lore at launch, rewrote the sylvari missions over and over again to make them more ambiguous in order not to give away the reveal about sylvari origins.

Algol.9635:

Are you sure that Mordremoth is really dead ? I’ve see him falling but I’ve never find any corpse :p

Actually, we see his corpse at Mordremoth’s Vantage POI (the top of the big tree where his head is impaled by a wooden spike) at the end of the Dragon Stand meta event where we slay the Mouth of Mordremoth, confirmed by his own dialogue and Laranthir’s dialogue to be a physical manifestation of Mordremoth himself. However, based on Laranthir’s subsequent lines in that event, it appears that the Mouth functions somewhat autonomously from the Mind (which we slew in HoT story) as it keeps regrowing and attacking, but this seems somewhat contradictory to the events of the story instance, so we may need to wait for writers’ clarification on the matter.

However, what would support the assumption that Mordremoth is dead is the huge amount of magic released from his body after we slay his Mind. If Mordremoth wasn’t getting closer to the death’s door, why would he want to let go of so much magic which he had spent all this time absorbing into himself? Surely he’d want to keep it all for himself instead of giving it to his competitors (the egg, his champions, other dragons)?

Kossage.9072:

jeezlaweez.6810:

1) We just used the same weapon Mordremoth used against the Dream in the retconed Sylvari Personal Story. (we all know it was retconed. It was a Zaithan minion. The Pale Tree states that)

I’m not entirely sure if this was meant to be a retcon. We’ve seen hints ever since launch that there’s more to the sylvari lore than meets the eye, not to mention Caithe’s somewhat cryptic lines throughout and the barest of hints at Mordremoth (via some of Subject Alpha’s attacks in Crucible of Eternity). It’s entirely possible, however, that the circumstances of Caithe and Faolain’s separation and the death of Wynne may not have been fully thought out at launch and were later retrofitted into existing lore.

Lorewise the Shadow of the Dragon thing makes sense, though. The only people from whom we really learn about it are Caithe and the Pale Tree, both of whom, as per Living World season 2, have an agenda to keep the sylvari in the dark about their true origins, so they could’ve plausibly made the Shadow represent Zhaitan who was the more immediate threat due to Risen activity throughout Tyria. We’ve also later been told by devs that Ree Soesbee, who was mainly responsible for sylvari lore at launch, rewrote the sylvari missions over and over again to make them more ambiguous in order not to give away the reveal about sylvari origins.

I can see your argument there, but I think it’s a retcon because of how the Shadow is represented that time, a smaller and weaker copy of Blightghast the Plaguebringer, from Retribution Personal Story Step. They even share the same animations, poison droll and stuff.

Also because I know, as a writer and as a Dungeon Master, that a plotline is 90% developed on the fly, and that our new Elder Dragon wasn’t chosen from the beginning. hahaha

However, it’s what I thought. But you are right, the ones that tell you that it’s a Zaithan’s Minion are The Pale Tree and Caithe… well… both knew about Mordremoth.

Actually, it seems that the Elder Dragons’ weakness is attacking their mind directly.

Even though we don’t do this with Zhaitan, we do with with Mordremoth and it works. Destiny’s Edge did it with Snaff’s inventions against Kralkatorrik and almost killed him, by themselves.

I think the “weaknesses” probably are about subverting the dragons’ domains.

We got Zhaitan through a mix of common sense and sheer dumb luck: Sylvari are incorruptible even in death. Charr war machines formed a bulk of the Pact forces and completely transcend Zhaitan’s dominion over death, being neither alive or dead by themselves.
Our greatest losses to Zhaitan were always due to subterfuge or miscalculation: a sneak attack on Claw Island, Risen Mesmers, plagues and poisons, the general failure to add our own expected losses to Zhaitan’s standing army during tactical planning. With the above war powers we forced Zhaitan’s hand and drew him out into the open, subverting “shadow” in the metaphorical sense. In the final battle we negated the literal meaning too: we fought in the sky using bright magical beams and explosives, there was no place for shadows to exist beyond our own airships, the one place we were fully prepared to defend.

While the revelation was a major letdown, Mordremoth’s “weakness” in itself actually makes a lot of sense: His body is a massive superorganism, no failure of any individual part can cause substantial damage to the whole. His mind, however, forms a logical keystone, it’s always “him”, the one and only. Being the creator of the Sylvari him having a “dream” of sorts seems logical, as does the ability to “link” through Trahearne as Caithe does something similar in the Sylvari opening story. Why he left that link open for us to barge in and stab him though is anyone’s guess. As for his “mouth” continuing to regrow, I guess his body isn’t immediately dead, just lobotomised. Components with their own information processing, like the “mouth”, spitter and spawner vines, along with any minions will continue on autopilot until everything finally collapses or dies individually. But Mordremoth, as a character, is dead and gone.

Or, as someone already commented in a cynical manner, the dragons all share the same weakness: hybris and overconfidence in general, and their disregard for the potential importance of any one individual mortal in particular. Armies couldn’t kill any of them, but a few clever minds working to specifically counter them can.

If the problem is hubris and overconfidence, then Kralkatorrik HAS to be one of the hardest Elder Dragons to take down because he’s the only one that was close to death, but survived thanks to Snaff getting killed first. He HAS to know that some people can actually be a match to him.

Hopefully this means he’ll try to do a preemptive strike against the specific race that invaded his mind and almost killed him: The Asura.

Ephemiel.5694:

If the problem is hubris and overconfidence, then Kralkatorrik HAS to be one of the hardest Elder Dragons to take down because he’s the only one that was close to death, but survived thanks to Snaff getting killed first. He HAS to know that some people can actually be a match to him.

Hopefully this means he’ll try to do a preemptive strike against the specific race that invaded his mind and almost killed him: The Asura.

I imagine the Kralk storyline will be focused around the charr(because of where he was asleep) and/or humans(because of where he ended up). I don’t see how he could get his forces to the other side of the continent without being forced to contend with one of the other dragons.