Guild Wars 2

If agrro was focused on player with more toughness first you would have your traditional dps but an expanded one. I can even see necro being a good healer in a tank and spam stacking group with Renewing Blast but that’s lame and boring. Only damage kills ,only way would be a siphon boon with damage that relies on healing power.

I’m not sure why some want the restricted trinity,only damage kills that why conditions should be fixed since they are a different type of damage. Healing power won’t make it without the scenario I mentioned before.

Kentrey.3251:

Caeledh I’m sorry, that you never really got to talk about your point because of the troll trolling in a sea of trolls. Anyone who plays knows that most of the runs are zerk runs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Qiff/the_zerg_meta
Its not like it isn’t well documented and seen permeating all throughout the game try not to argue a moot point, makes you seem like a thoughtless kitten .

I appreciate the sympathy I tried to bring it back to the point where I could, but yeah…

It’s a real shame the forum doesn’t have an ignore option.

rotten.9753:

Yes, it’s a brilliant idea to get multiple sets of gear, especially ascended.

I honestly think that’s a big part of the current problem. Ascended gear is not quick or easy to acquire. Especially not with the silk cost. I’m overflowing with all the other components but at best I can scrounge up enough silk every 3 days for one silk weaving thread. Need 25 for a full set so that’s 3 months per set.

Even putting aside other players imposing gear requirements on groups, I personally like to do my best in anything I try so in groups I would always stick to builds I have ascended gear for.

And I reckon that’s one reason why we haven’t seen ArenaNet even try to address the zerk issue. While zerk is the most viable set, everyone who has an ascended zerk set (i.e. most of their long-term players) essentially has all the best gear in the game. The moment that changes they would need to start the ascended materials grind again.

It’s a delicate situation.

I always run full damage/burst and any game that prevents me from achieving this successfully will be a game I no longer play or fund.

Knighthonor.4061:

That statement is bull!!!

Anybody that was around during the Defiance addition would tell you this as well. Defiance was added to basically make control pretty much useless in PvE!!!

~Snip~

Didn’t see if anyone replied to you or not, but maybe you’re not as good as you think you are. Even with Defiance, in it’s current state and before the upcoming fix, if you’re really good you can still use CC…you just have to be skilled enough.

To answer the OP, I don’t want the trinity, which is heal, support, damage…I like the way GW2 does things, it’s their own take with a different kind of trinity, only players don’t understand it.

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Roles are not dependent on gear in this game. They also are not exclusive; i.e. you can be both a healer and a dps role at the same time. There should never be a need to change your gear stats since they should not be needed for completion of anything. Changing gear sets only changes the numbers we see.

The combat system in gw2 relies on movement. It prides itself on it. We use movement in combat to avoid damages mainly. The more powerful support is the less movement we need to do. Too much damage also makes movement trivial (stacking). This is a problem with mechanics and AI that should be fixed.

Condition damage is another thing that needs to be fixed in group pve. That has it’s own technical problems but it is very much worth solving.

Gameplay diversity should come with the weapons, utilities and traits that you bring to a fight not from the stats. I am all for making movement more important for some bosses (the anomaly for example) and making players bring teleports, swiftness etc. That is fun and everyone can easily change traits/utilities and weapons without the costs of extra gear sets.

The problem we have is that how many stats do we have that affect dps?
pure physical dps 3 main power ferocity precision that affect two minor critical damage and critical chance
Dps condition 1 main condition damage 1 minor condition duration
And how many for healing?
1 main healing power
And how many for support?
1 minor boon duration

How in the nine hells are these 3 supposed to be able to 3 diffrent roles you can specialize in to group up?

I talked to maddoctor about this in another thread and someone jumped me for taking toughness as a selfish stat that boosted your support skills like guardians reflect wall.

How about a support main stat that affect how long your support skills last like all the relfect skills etc if you dont have this stat your dps wont go down and but you wont be able to support yourself or others.

Why should people thats pure dps be able to support aswell as someone who want to go full support? ( They have had their cake and eaten it to for quite long enough now)

Why is there no healing critical and condition critical minor stats?
I mean if you cut someones finger he bleeds alittle you cut someone artery vein that buggers going to bleed alot.

How about toughness reduced the chance to be critical hit same with vitality against condition criticals.

DeceiverX.8361:

I always run full damage/burst and any game that prevents me from achieving this successfully will be a game I no longer play or fund.

Yes you will still be able to run full damage but why should everyone in your team have to be full damage?

Linken.6345:

DeceiverX.8361:

I always run full damage/burst and any game that prevents me from achieving this successfully will be a game I no longer play or fund.

Yes you will still be able to run full damage but why should everyone in your team have to be full damage?

That is at their discretion. I always join “all welcome” parties or parties without requirements and they are very easily found just because I’d rather play with people who aren’t snobs about speedrun optimization when they’re pugging in the first place. Usually these players know their class and the nuances of their builds more deeply, anyways.

If a trinity is forced, DPS no longer becomes a successful style of play because it’s too-often played by most people without enough healers and tanks.

I don’t care what other people play. I want to play my way and not have to give a kitten about what other people are playing. That’s why I’m playing this game to begin with.

This “issue” lies in that people mostly just like playing DPS paired with it being a more time-efficient way to play if the players possess a decent individual level of skill. The rudeness of the community will always be there no matter what the necessary requirements are. To me this “problem” just stems from people who wants to play the tank/support role in speed runs and simply aren’t able to because of optimization and the lack of need. News flash, but this is how DPS players feel in most other games.

The problem regarding a lack of diversity comes from ANet designing dungeons around draining health bars and draining health bars only. There is little a tanky or supportive player can bring to the table in these situations.

Hard trinities, soft trinities… it doesn’t matter. The dominant style of play will always be the one enforced this way, diverse or not. If content requires a healer or support, they will become mandatory, and others will be kicked. In GW2, it’s just the opposite is occurring because some theory-crafters and speed-runners are using gear sets based around DPS since it’s the optimal way to play in terms of time spent per unit of reward.

DeceiverX.8361:

Hard trinities, soft trinities… it doesn’t matter. The dominant style of play will always be the one enforced this way, diverse or not. If content requires a healer or support, they will become mandatory, and others will be kicked. In GW2, it’s just the opposite is occurring because some theory-crafters and speed-runners are using gear sets based around DPS since it’s the optimal way to play in terms of time spent per unit of reward.

This is not a binary deal. There is a difference between requiring a healer, and merely allowing people to play healers if they want and still be useful and desired in min/maxed groups. It doesn’t have to be optimal every fight but for some bosses it should be optimal to bring a group that is not 5x zerk.

That’s how GW2’s PvE should have been since release. Play whatever role you want and you will find something useful to do. Say if you play a defense or support kind of character, well maybe you don’t be optimal for boss 1, but for bosses 2 and 4 it’s actually a good idea and will make things easier.

But that’s border-line impossible. As long as the healer isn’t required, the fight will ALWAYS be optimized around DPS and clearing faster as long as the encounters are designed the way they are.

You do realize dungeon speed clears are measured in milliseconds, and some of the competitive times are within fractions of a second, right? We have a very competitive speed clear community here. Support and tanks are always viable, but it’s the speed clear composition that’s near impossible to balance around and will remain binary forever as long as a strategy is optimal, which there will always be one to due to the fact perfect balance is impossible.

That’s why I don’t understand complaints about party compositions. It’s actually just dungeon design being made this way and has nothing to do with mythical balancing issues pertaining to a set of gear or complaints about trinities or whatever it is.

Trinities exist on the basis that the game must be designed around that strategy as optimal and required to an extent, otherwise the entire concept of a trinity wouldn’t exist. It doesn’t solve anything because it still makes people do things one way or another that they don’t like to do – only that it makes the content harder if not impossible to do without compliance, whereas in GW2, tanks and suport make things easier but ultimately just slower.

Sure it’s a flaw in dungeon and AI design, but the issues currently have nothing to do with the classes or builds.

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

tigirius.9014:

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

You seem to be getting confused about what the R in RPG means.
“A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game’s imaginary world.”

That has no relation to mechanics of combat.

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

You seem to be getting confused about what the R in RPG means.
“A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game’s imaginary world.”

That has no relation to mechanics of combat.

What Lazaar said ^^.

These people who never played an RPG in their life and only play MMORPGs have a very twisted version of the term “role” in those games.

tigirius.9014:

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

Except that’s not a role in the tactical sense (tank, healer, dps).

DeceiverX.8361:

But that’s border-line impossible. As long as the healer isn’t required, the fight will ALWAYS be optimized around DPS and clearing faster as long as the encounters are designed the way they are.

That’s far from impossible because the big MMO does exactly that with its “Scenarios.” (Story-driven dungeons.) And it got its first one on the exact same day that GW2 released so it’s not like it’s a new thing in MMOs. Anyway in some those instance you will find that carrying a tank or a healer gives you faster runs because the healing or defense allows the group to ignore some otherwise dangerous mechanics that would otherwise distract the DPS players from the boss. And of course some other instances are faster to clear with just DPS. But any group composition can clear one.

So anyway the proof of concept for group content that support various group compositions is already there (or at least it’s there for small-scale groups) and it would be perfect for GW2’s “play whatever you want” approach to PvE because it does not always glorify the same role/builds.

I think people still confuses viability vs efficiency.

Is every build viable? Almost yes, you can clear any PvE content in any gear/trait.
Can you expect every team comp to have the same performance? Heck no, that would be extremely wrong.

Anything is vialbe, zerk/assassin is optimal.
And by optimal we mean “it takes the less time possible if played perfect”.
In PvE optimal is “fastest”, in Wvw is “kill and dont get killed”, hence other sets are viable.

The only fix I see needed in PvE is condition viability, because a full condi users comp will make any run a pain, no need to list why.

Since more defensive gear is really viable in WvW where there’s more frequent attacks, maybe a little upgrade in this way in PvE could bring even more diversity after condition fix.

Those are mine 2 coppers, anyway.

tigirius.9014:

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

hilarious. Now google the real etymology of the term.

Bearhugger.4326:

That’s far from impossible because the big MMO does exactly that with its “Scenarios.” (Story-driven dungeons.) And it got its first one on the exact same day that GW2 released so it’s not like it’s a new thing in MMOs. Anyway in some those instance you will find that carrying a tank or a healer gives you faster runs because the healing or defense allows the group to ignore some otherwise dangerous mechanics that would otherwise distract the DPS players from the boss.

So in that particular one a healer and tank is required for an optimal run

Bearhugger.4326:

And of course some other instances are faster to clear with just DPS. But any group composition can clear one.

And in those ones a full party of only DPS is required for an optimal run

Bearhugger.4326:

So anyway the proof of concept for group content that support various group compositions is already there (or at least it’s there for small-scale groups) and it would be perfect for GW2’s “play whatever you want” approach to PvE because it does not always glorify the same role/builds.

But that would require everyone to carry different sets of ascended gears to be able to do all the content optimally, and well we all knows how much a pain it can be to just get one set of ascended gear

Gaaroth.2567:

I think people still confuses viability vs efficiency.

Is every build viable? Almost yes, you can clear any PvE content in any gear/trait.
Can you expect every team comp to have the same performance? Heck no, that would be extremely wrong..

Amazing how many people don’t get this.

tigirius.9014:

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

‘’Role-playing game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.’’

But nice try.

Not even that error, you failed to see that the game have role already. Each profession have a role depending on the situation. In a meta dungeon group the Warrior provide offensive buff to boost the damage of the group, the guardian provide defensive support to keep the group at high hp, the Thief provide blind and stealth to skip, the Elementalist provide the bulk of the damage, might and fury. Each profession have a different role in the group.

In GWEN, the Guardian provide boons, the Warrior provide condition removal and CC, Elementalist provide support, while Necromancer provide damage spike.

GW2 don’t have mandatory role, but have a lot of optional role. You can complete content with different set of role.

Linken.6345:

KngGilgamesh.3481:

-snip-

The problem we have is that how many stats do we have that affect dps?
pure physical dps 3 main power ferocity precision that affect two minor critical damage and critical chance
Dps condition 1 main condition damage 1 minor condition duration
And how many for healing?
1 main healing power
And how many for support?
1 minor boon duration

How in the nine hells are these 3 supposed to be able to 3 diffrent roles you can specialize in to group up?

I talked to maddoctor about this in another thread and someone jumped me for taking toughness as a selfish stat that boosted your support skills like guardians reflect wall.

How about a support main stat that affect how long your support skills last like all the relfect skills etc if you dont have this stat your dps wont go down and but you wont be able to support yourself or others.

Why should people thats pure dps be able to support aswell as someone who want to go full support? ( They have had their cake and eaten it to for quite long enough now)

Why is there no healing critical and condition critical minor stats?
I mean if you cut someones finger he bleeds alittle you cut someone artery vein that buggers going to bleed alot.

How about toughness reduced the chance to be critical hit same with vitality against condition criticals.

I wrote a bit on this on reddit yesterday but active defense needs to be as effective for zerkers as it is for nomads because if it weren’t and that difference mattered then the zerkers would have no incentive to bring support skills. (Why would a dps guardian use aegis if it isn’t effective since they don’t have a stat that boosts it?). This eliminates diversity not increases it. The great point about gw2 combat is the active defense making it weaker or unequal favors stats over skills. If you made active defense stronger for nomads ten it would be too effective and so trivialize gameplay. If you made it weaker for zerkers then it would harm build diversity and skilled gameplay.

Anyway why is stat diversity important? You yourself have mentioned that it really doesn’t effect much. Zerkers sacrifice survivability so that their skills do more damage and proc more. Nomads sacrifice damage for great passive defensive. Stats serve this purpose of managing passive defense and damage well. They also should only augment roles and should never define it. They can make roles easier or harder but never required. Stats don’t change gameplay a lot traits, utilities, and weapon skills do.

The problem isn’t that zerker is optimal everywhere but that the same strategies, builds and skills are optimal everywhere. Currently the standards at which zerker is viable is too low so it is easy to get away with using zerker gear for parties. This should not be the case everywhere; i.e. zerker should be viable everywhere (and if it is viable then by its nature it would be optimal or irrelevant(world bosses)) but it should be gated by skills required. Currently we have made pve much easier since we know all the mechanics and actively try to circumvent any that we can (stacking, LOS enemies). These are problems with mechanics and AI and would stay problems with any other gear types. Zerkers should not trivialize content as it so often can. This will drive the amount of zerker players down in pugs.

Encounter difficulty should never rely on stats of players but rather on their strategies and skills. A stationary slow instant killing attacks boss that you stack on and dodge once a while is no more fun that a stationary fast attacking boss that you stack on and heal damage once a while. The issues are mechanical and AI driven, the content is too easy now with zerkers and they are able to trivialize difficulties with brute force. Difficulty should be addressed by strategies not by stats. stats’s effect should be passive or else it harms skilled gameplay (if stats are needed to take skillful actions).

We can make defensive stats buff the durations of active defense but what does that really accomplish? If the difference are relevant for completion then diversity is ruined and if they are not relevant then well they are not relevant. The issues are related to AI and mechanics that allow us to trivialize gameplay with brute force. Force is not the problem but the weaknesses of mechanics and AI is that allows the force to be brute or unskilled.

So I posted about the definition of Role in RPG for those who continue to be ignorant of what it actually means when discussing the electronic or MMORPG version of the genre and people still didn’t get the point so here it is in more clear detail so that people can finally stop spreading their myths.

“Role-playing games also include single-player offline role-playing video games in which players control a character or team who undertake quests, and may include capabilities that advance using statistical mechanics. These games often share settings and rules with tabletop RPGs, but emphasize character advancement more than collaborative storytelling.” ie advancement includes but isn’t limited to combat situations which as we all know in games with leveling through combat is the driving factor of advancement. It’s the driving factor for advancement when you’re in dungeons to complete scenarios and in order to be successful you have to fulfill a role (which sad to say there is only one right now Zerker) and it’s a driving factor for advancement in PVP which sad to say is the only place that you’ll see any semblance of a trinity right now in conclusion my original definition stands because as we all know adding an electronic element to these types of games changed the genre from being limited to just the original tabletop to something much much more.

And you people who support the Zerker who tried to say that I was wrong when I defined Role in roleplaying the way I did, you’re not only missing the point but you’re also spreading myths yourself.

Having the trinity as a choice in no way will affect the Zerker meta, it won’t stop people from thinking DPS is the best, it won’t stop people from using the gear and spec they already have, and it won’t cause the game to crash and burn. Please stop spreading nonsense.

I think we should look at other titles out there who have the trinity lite as an option and see how they are fairing.

NWO comes to mind immediately.

They have their own version of the Zerker meta going however you don’t have to be glass cannon.

No dungeon is requiring only certain classes (as with what’s happening here with the plate classes and will happen with all three plates in the future if left unchanged)

Materials to make gear aren’t inflated to outrageous amounts and people have the ability to be diverse in their builds.

No one is blaming the healer or tank in groups because they know that it’s not a full trinity it works differently than that anyone that has, has been laughed out of their groups for being stupid.

There is no downside.

tigirius.9014:

So I posted about the definition of Role in RPG for those who continue to be ignorant of what it actually means when discussing the electronic or MMORPG version of the genre and people still didn’t get the point so here it is in more clear detail so that people can finally stop spreading their myths.

“Role-playing games also include single-player offline role-playing video games in which players control a character or team who undertake quests, and may include capabilities that advance using statistical mechanics. These games often share settings and rules with tabletop RPGs, but emphasize character advancement more than collaborative storytelling.” ie advancement includes but isn’t limited to combat situations which as we all know in games with leveling through combat is the driving factor of advancement. It’s the driving factor for advancement when you’re in dungeons to complete scenarios and in order to be successful you have to fulfill a role (which sad to say there is only one right now Zerker) and it’s a driving factor for advancement in PVP which sad to say is the only place that you’ll see any semblance of a trinity right now in conclusion my original definition stands because as we all know adding an electronic element to these types of games changed the genre from being limited to just the original tabletop to something much much more.

And you people who support the Zerker who tried to say that I was wrong when I defined Role in roleplaying the way I did, you’re not only missing the point but you’re also spreading myths yourself.

Having the trinity as a choice in no way will affect the Zerker meta, it won’t stop people from thinking DPS is the best, it won’t stop people from using the gear and spec they already have, and it won’t cause the game to crash and burn. Please stop spreading nonsense.

I think we should look at other titles out there who have the trinity lite as an option and see how they are fairing.

NWO comes to mind immediately.

They have their own version of the Zerker meta going however you don’t have to be glass cannon.

No dungeon is requiring only certain classes (as with what’s happening here with the plate classes and will happen with all three plates in the future if left unchanged)

Materials to make gear aren’t inflated to outrageous amounts and people have the ability to be diverse in their builds.

No one is blaming the healer or tank in groups because they know that it’s not a full trinity it works differently than that anyone that has, has been laughed out of their groups for being stupid.

There is no downside.

cool, you took the time to write a very long text. Still, you are completely wrong on the “role” concept. Though in your defense, it probably hadn´t been a good choice to adopt the wording when the genre transfered from “acting” at the coffee table to computer games. Still, rage and blame all you want, you are wrong. Simple as that. Less so in the rest of your statements.

tigirius.9014:

No dungeon is requiring only certain classes (as with what’s happening here with the plate classes and will happen with all three plates in the future if left unchanged)

Are you playing Guild Wars 2?

Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist and Thief are all top professions in the meta. Rangers (not bearbow) are a welcome addition to any group, Engineers and Mesmers have their own uses in most content. I admit most people don’t know how powerful Engineers are and they “think” they aren’t good for the meta, when they are actually very good.

And finally we got Necromancers, who aren’t very needed in meta groups. Is it because they lack DPS? Not really Necromancers can do damage comparable to other professions if built well, they can also spec for zerker like everyone else and do respectable damage, while having great innate survivability.

Necromancers aren’t taken into speed running and meta groups is because they don’t have SUPPORT. Their damage is fine, their SUPPORT is lacking. All this in the “omg it’s all about damage meta”.

Also, if “Damage” is the main reason to get a specific profession in top tier, then why are Phalanx Warriors so great in meta groups (their DPS is lower than other Warrior builds)

tigirius.9014:

Sin order to be successful you have to fulfill a role (which sad to say there is only one right now Zerker) and it’s a driving factor for advancement in PVP which sad to say is the only place that you’ll see any semblance of a trinity right now….

Zerker is not a role, it’s a gear that doesn’t change much about your gameplay or your role. Your role come from your profession, utilities, weapons, trait, etc. Zerker affect NOT AT ALL your role.

A semblance of a trinity in sPvP??? Ok i give up on that guy.

Concerning PvE only:
Boss mechanics based simply on pure damage avoidance/mitigation (dodge here, move there, dps in between) tend to be much less diverse and variable. Mechanics that require other utilities to be involved like CC, aggro taunting/kiting and sustained heals tend to be more interesting and dynamic (obviously). The problem is that once these other utilities start to be required, then players will tend to specialize in them and form a “trinity” or square or whatever shape you want to define into roles. It creates a continuum in which more diverse combat encounters will require more specialized players in order to be successful or else it will have to stay a stagnant straightforward fight. If you want more varied gameplay, you need to introduce more varied encounter requirements and force the group to specialize. Some MMOs take one extreme end of the continuum and require tank-heals-dps roles to be filled in order to complete group content. GW2 trends towards the other end and has removed need to specialize, which has resulted in simpler encounter design. That’s the trinity vs no-roles argument.

Generally speaking in GW2, players can max their dps while still maintaining enough healing/support to cover what’s necessary in any given fight so there’s no absolute need for a support or healer role. You can still play one if you want, but it sacrifices efficiency, which is the “zerker vs other builds” argument. There are players who are concerned with optimizing their time spent in terms of profit and success, who will opt for the zerker meta for efficiency. There are players who perfer to do things their own way, build their own builds, play their own roles, who are not so concerned with success/hour ratios and don’t mind finishing dungeons more slowly; they still enjoy the time they spend doing so.

Dav.9152:

Concerning PvE only:
Boss mechanics based simply on pure damage avoidance/mitigation (dodge here, move there, dps in between) tend to be much less diverse and variable. Mechanics that require other utilities to be involved like CC, aggro taunting/kiting and sustained heals tend to be more interesting and dynamic (obviously). The problem is that once these other utilities start to be required, then players will tend to specialize in them and form a “trinity” or square or whatever shape you want to define into roles. It creates a continuum in which more diverse combat encounters will require more specialized players in order to be successful or else it will have to stay a stagnant straightforward fight. If you want more varied gameplay, you need to introduce more varied encounter requirements and force the group to specialize. Some MMOs take one extreme end of the continuum and require tank-heals-dps roles to be filled in order to complete group content. GW2 trends towards the other end and has removed need to specialize, which has resulted in simpler encounter design. That’s the trinity vs no-roles argument.

Generally speaking in GW2, players can max their dps while still maintaining enough healing/support to cover what’s necessary in any given fight so there’s no absolute need for a support or healer role. You can still play one if you want, but it sacrifices efficiency, which is the “zerker vs other builds” argument. There are players who are concerned with optimizing their time spent in terms of profit and success, who will opt for the zerker meta for efficiency. There are players who perfer to do things their own way, build their own builds, play their own roles, who are not so concerned with success/hour ratios and don’t mind finishing dungeons more slowly; they still enjoy the time they spend doing so.

Actually there is only one choice when you look at it and that’s Zerker because of the way conditions have been designed in this game.

If you looked at Rift for example, their ability to stack their DoTs which is exactly what conditions are btw, is not limited. The stacks do not change suddenly because another player who is burst dps decided to use a skill that just happened to have one of those conditions on it even though that player didn’t specialise in that type of damage in their build! There’s also, no problem when grouping in large groups with DoT builds in Rift because stacks actually become better stacks and change the dynamic based on how you spec. There is also the ability of DoTs to have burst damage because critting matters in Rift on DoTs.

Healing has similar issues in GW2 where there is no burst healing because crits don’t matter and several skills on several classes don’t stack properly with the plus to damage/healing type used.

So when you say that players can max their DPS and they can play the way they want to you’re not being honest about the situation in PVE in PVP that might be true but it’s certainly not true in PVE.

There’s also no incentive in GW2 to build an all power build for PVE.

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

I had missed somehow some of the interviews and I’m happy to say one of the questions I had was answered right here in this portion of one of the interviews.

tigirius.9014:

So when you say that players can max their DPS and they can play the way they want to you’re not being honest about the situation in PVE in PVP that might be true but it’s certainly not true in PVE.

Yes, there’s a truly amazing amount of blatant dishonesty in this thread. Claims which don’t just beggar belief, but strip it naked and beat it bloody.

It’s curious…

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

Absolutely.

Caeledh.5437:

tigirius.9014:

So when you say that players can max their DPS and they can play the way they want to you’re not being honest about the situation in PVE in PVP that might be true but it’s certainly not true in PVE.

Yes, there’s a truly amazing amount of blatant dishonesty in this thread. Claims which don’t just beggar belief, but strip it naked and beat it bloody.

It’s curious…

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

Absolutely.

Zerker is not a role, it’s gear stats
And Zerkers are not optimal nor are they successful without a lot of support so I don’t understand where that comment is coming from, I thought anyone who read the rest of thread (and the other similar ones) already understood that.

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

That’s why every group is 4X Ele + 1 War to maximize dps all running with 0 support traits/utilities and pure damage. Mhm, yeah..

Wait… no… the typical speed run group is something like 1 thief, 1 war, 1 guard/mes then 2 Eles. With the Ele’s bringing things like Sand Storm for it’s amazing blind capability as well as thief dropping a lot of damage to carry a pistol around and the guard/mes, well, they’re only there for their utility/support.

So please, go on about how there are no roles because you don’t like that glass cannon can survive with proper application of active defenses.

If you feel like arguing your point, please do so by posting a video of a full clear of a fractal 50 with 4 Ele + War composition, none taking any utility over pure damage, that means Scepter/dagger Ele + 3 Staff Ele + DPS double banner War. No D/F Ele’s, no using Sandstorm, no arcane Shield or mist form, no, pure damage and nothing but that.

maddoctor.2738:

And Zerkers are not optimal nor are they successful without a lot of support so I don’t understand where that comment is coming from, I thought anyone who read the rest of thread (and the other similar ones) already understood that.

Are you employed by ArenaNet?

Jerus.4350:

If you feel like arguing your point, please do so by posting a video of a full clear of a fractal 50 with 4 Ele + War composition, none taking any utility over pure damage, that means Scepter/dagger Ele + 3 Staff Ele + DPS double banner War. No D/F Ele’s, no using Sandstorm, no arcane Shield or mist form, no, pure damage and nothing but that.

Nah they are probably talking about killing mobs in Queensdale. It’s true you can do that without any kind of utility, using only pure damage

Caeledh.5437:

maddoctor.2738:

And Zerkers are not optimal nor are they successful without a lot of support so I don’t understand where that comment is coming from, I thought anyone who read the rest of thread (and the other similar ones) already understood that.

Are you employed by ArenaNet?

Check out Jerus post with a more detailed example.

Might I just add that in this interview Jon Peters said it himself “alot of people keep talking about oh there’s just… not roles in GW2, that was never the intention…..We want people to think about their builds.”

That pretty much sums it up for me! I’m now excited for what HoT will bring to the table at launch!

maddoctor.2738:

Caeledh.5437:

tigirius.9014:

So when you say that players can max their DPS and they can play the way they want to you’re not being honest about the situation in PVE in PVP that might be true but it’s certainly not true in PVE.

Yes, there’s a truly amazing amount of blatant dishonesty in this thread. Claims which don’t just beggar belief, but strip it naked and beat it bloody.

It’s curious…

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

Absolutely.

Zerker is not a role, it’s gear stats
And Zerkers are not optimal nor are they successful without a lot of support so I don’t understand where that comment is coming from, I thought anyone who read the rest of thread (and the other similar ones) already understood that.

Zerker is glass cannon in some circles it’s called DPS which means it’s very much a role. Please just stop if your only arguments are semantics.

tigirius.9014:

Might I just add that in this interview Jon Peters said it himself “alot of people keep talking about oh there’s just… not roles in GW2, that was never the intention…..We want people to think about their builds.”

That pretty much sums it up for me! I’m now excited for what HoT will bring to the table at launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nd4t6XvT8

Likely talking about how some people seem to think there isn’t, when there in fact always has been. But everyone can fill all the roles through their choice of traits, utilities, and weapons. And it will continue being that way.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

“Due to a diverse skill system allowing for a multitude of vastly different character builds, every profession in Guild Wars 2 is capable of fitting each of the combat roles (damage, support, control) or are sometimes even the result of a combination of them.”

From the wiki itself.

tigirius.9014:

Zerker is glass cannon in some circles it’s called DPS which means it’s very much a role. Please just stop if your only arguments are semantics.

So let’s assume I have full ascended zerker gear. I won’t swap it to something else because it costs a tremendous amount of money and I like my gear to be pinky. I play ele 0/0/2/6/6 with full healing, might stacking and condi clearing traits. Am I still acting as a dps role?

The major problem here is that people only seems to be capable of thinking in black and withe. ARBITRARY BLACK AND WHITE.

I dont want “the trinity” if for that you understand DPS, Healer and Tank. No thanks. That thing is.. awful.

BUT I don’t want the “only zerker meta” either. That is garbage too.

GW2 doesn’t promised simpley to “not have a trinity”. They promised we could play as we want. What I want is to have a huge amount of viable build alternatives for each profession, a respectable use for each type of gear, and lots of opportunities to use my favorite skills without being utterly sub-par and detrimental for my party.

Kitten trinity, kitten zerker.

I want to make a full Condition Damage build that shine in dungeons, a Flamethrower build that is competitive in PvP, a full Healing Power build that is fun to use on WvW, a CC centered rifle warrior that people doesn’t kick from groups.

I know I’m asking too much, but at least I know I’m on the right track. Keep going if you want, but Trinity vs Zerk is a STERILE argument, and you all know it.

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

Might I just add that in this interview Jon Peters said it himself “alot of people keep talking about oh there’s just… not roles in GW2, that was never the intention…..We want people to think about their builds.”

That pretty much sums it up for me! I’m now excited for what HoT will bring to the table at launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nd4t6XvT8

Likely talking about how some people seem to think there isn’t, when there in fact always has been. But everyone can fill all the roles through their choice of traits, utilities, and weapons. And it will continue being that way.

That river doesn’t lead anywhere btw. If you listened to the whole interview from the time stamp you’d see exactly what he’s talking about is exactly what we’ve been saying. There are no roles, the combat system isn’t where they’d like it to be even he admited that, and in the future HoT will be the ground work where people will have more options and skills that give them trinity like abilities. You all can stop posting now it’s from the horses mouth.

tigirius.9014:

maddoctor.2738:

Caeledh.5437:

tigirius.9014:

So when you say that players can max their DPS and they can play the way they want to you’re not being honest about the situation in PVE in PVP that might be true but it’s certainly not true in PVE.

Yes, there’s a truly amazing amount of blatant dishonesty in this thread. Claims which don’t just beggar belief, but strip it naked and beat it bloody.

It’s curious…

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

Absolutely.

Zerker is not a role, it’s gear stats
And Zerkers are not optimal nor are they successful without a lot of support so I don’t understand where that comment is coming from, I thought anyone who read the rest of thread (and the other similar ones) already understood that.

Zerker is glass cannon in some circles it’s called DPS which means it’s very much a role. Please just stop if your only arguments are semantics.

So if I play a “zerker” Thief while providing Stealth to my group and blinds to enemy mobs I’m still a DPS role?

If I play a 0/0/2/6/6 Elementalist in full zerker gear, I’m still using a DPS role?

If I play an AH Hammer Guardian to go in, take hits and keep mobs on me (all while using only Zerker gear) my role is STILL DPS in your mind?

Please stop if you don’t even have arguments.

Ardid.7203:

The major problem here is that people only seems to be capable of thinking in black and withe. ARBITRARY BLACK AND WHITE.

I dont want “the trinity” if for that you understand DPS, Healer and Tank. No thanks. That thing is.. awful.

BUT I don’t want the “only zerker meta” either. That is garbage too.

GW2 doesn’t promised simpley to “not have a trinity”. They promised we could play as we want. What I want is to have a huge amount of viable build alternatives for each profession, a respectable use for each type of gear, and lots of opportunities to use my favorite skills without being utterly sub-par and detrimental for my party.

Kitten trinity, kitten zerker.

I want to make a full Condition Damage build that shine in dungeons, a Flamethrower build that is competitive in PvP, a full Healing Power build that is fun to use on WvW, a CC centered rifle warrior that people doesn’t kick from groups.

I know I’m asking too much, but at least I know I’m on the right track. Keep going if you want, but Trinity vs Zerk is a STERILE argument, and you all know it.

I agree and I’ve not asked for trinity I’ve asked for a more diverse set of options and trinity like abilities I call trinity lite which allows people to put together teams with the trinity options but doesn’t require it.

I’m so happy to see that this will be the future goal of HoT and post HoT that people will have trinity like options using specializations and a revamped combat system.

tigirius.9014:

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

Might I just add that in this interview Jon Peters said it himself “alot of people keep talking about oh there’s just… not roles in GW2, that was never the intention…..We want people to think about their builds.”

That pretty much sums it up for me! I’m now excited for what HoT will bring to the table at launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nd4t6XvT8

Likely talking about how some people seem to think there isn’t, when there in fact always has been. But everyone can fill all the roles through their choice of traits, utilities, and weapons. And it will continue being that way.

That river doesn’t lead anywhere btw. If you listened to the whole interview from the time stamp you’d see exactly what he’s talking about is exactly what we’ve been saying. There are no roles, the combat system isn’t where they’d like it to be even he admited that, and in the future HoT will be the ground work where people will have more options and skills that give them trinity like abilities. You all can stop posting now it’s from the horses mouth.

http://youtu.be/xUjrrc5aj2k?t=30m11s

And yet here it says that taunt isn’t going to be like the one from other MMOs, also from a game designer.

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

Might I just add that in this interview Jon Peters said it himself “alot of people keep talking about oh there’s just… not roles in GW2, that was never the intention…..We want people to think about their builds.”

That pretty much sums it up for me! I’m now excited for what HoT will bring to the table at launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nd4t6XvT8

Likely talking about how some people seem to think there isn’t, when there in fact always has been. But everyone can fill all the roles through their choice of traits, utilities, and weapons. And it will continue being that way.

That river doesn’t lead anywhere btw. If you listened to the whole interview from the time stamp you’d see exactly what he’s talking about is exactly what we’ve been saying. There are no roles, the combat system isn’t where they’d like it to be even he admited that, and in the future HoT will be the ground work where people will have more options and skills that give them trinity like abilities. You all can stop posting now it’s from the horses mouth.

http://youtu.be/xUjrrc5aj2k?t=30m11s

And yet here it says that taunt isn’t going to be like the one from other MMOs, also from a game designer.

Didn’t claim it would be but what it does do is add trinity like options. You’re just going to have to deal with it man, get a support group you’ll be okay.

tigirius.9014:

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

Lazaar.9123:

tigirius.9014:

Might I just add that in this interview Jon Peters said it himself “alot of people keep talking about oh there’s just… not roles in GW2, that was never the intention…..We want people to think about their builds.”

That pretty much sums it up for me! I’m now excited for what HoT will bring to the table at launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nd4t6XvT8

Likely talking about how some people seem to think there isn’t, when there in fact always has been. But everyone can fill all the roles through their choice of traits, utilities, and weapons. And it will continue being that way.

That river doesn’t lead anywhere btw. If you listened to the whole interview from the time stamp you’d see exactly what he’s talking about is exactly what we’ve been saying. There are no roles, the combat system isn’t where they’d like it to be even he admited that, and in the future HoT will be the ground work where people will have more options and skills that give them trinity like abilities. You all can stop posting now it’s from the horses mouth.

http://youtu.be/xUjrrc5aj2k?t=30m11s

And yet here it says that taunt isn’t going to be like the one from other MMOs, also from a game designer.

Didn’t claim it would be but what it does do is add trinity like options. You’re just going to have to deal with it man, get a support group you’ll be okay.

Um… support already exists in organised dungeons man.

tigirius.9014:

Zerker is glass cannon in some circles it’s called DPS which means it’s very much a role. Please just stop if your only arguments are semantics.

With (usually) one exception, every hitpoint that you bring to a fight is essentially wasted if you don’t lose that hitpoint over the course of the fight (ignoring things like Scholar Runes for now). That’s not a unique thing to GW2 — every MMO follows this principle and it arises from the very definition of hitpoints.

Even if you’re a tank, your sole consideration when gearing is “how does this affect my group’s DPS?”. The DPS of every other member of the group is almost invariably capped at some multiple of your own DPS.

If, as a tank, you’re not as geared for DPS as possible — after accounting for the need to survive throughout the fight — then there are really only three possibilities:

1. You simply don’t know what you’re doing.
2. You know what you need to be doing, but you’re still working on getting the gold/tokens/whatever necessary to do it.
3. You’re hoping that your heals/supports will be more aggressive, and that they will contribute more DPS to the group as a result than you lost with the extra defensive piece.

And of course, note that it’s the height of lameness for an MMO to even permit silly trap approaches like not having enough defence to survive the damage you’re likely to face when doing content. So of course it’s practical to wear zerker gear in GW2 and meet the basic requirement to stay alive. Just as it’s practical in most trinity MMOs to wear the tank’s equivalent to zerker gear.

It’s not necessarily a problem to take point (3) on board and provide more effective ways to translate unnecessary defence into extra damage, of course.

As a fairly boring way to do it, perhaps necromancers could have a GM Blood Magic trait that bolsters the power and ferocity of nearby allies, depending on the amount of overhealing they’ve received via lifesteals recently?

Wait, you mean it’s not ROLL playing?

/e hides behind bag of dice

PS: apropos of nothing, I sure do miss CoH style tanking. Loved that. Sometimes almost maybe just a little kinda almost get that feeling with my #1 warrior here, but not quite. Mid-level scepter/dagger ele also kinda reminded me of a blaster, but as she hit the higher levels the damage began to feel more like controller damage…

Anyway, carry on.

GummiBear.2756:

But that would require everyone to carry different sets of ascended gears to be able to do all the content optimally, and well we all knows how much a pain it can be to just get one set of ascended gear

The players who are so obsessed with getting the absolute best clear time and performance in every single situation should be carrying multiple sets.

The fact that people almost never have to change gear in min-maxed runs, not even between multiple damage-oriented sets, is very telling of how much Arenanet has failed to make their PvE be a “play whatever you want”. In a well-balanced games that doesn’t have tanks and healers, people would still be swapping sets between multiple DPS sets to get that extra ounce of power.

In GW2, even if there was a need for a tank and a healer, the DPSers would universally be in berserker. It shouldn’t be. There should be multiple viable DPS sets, with long forum threads with players arguing that X gear is better than Y gear with their build.

Nah, the setup we have now is great.

Any profession can run any role. (Cough Run All Zerker Cough)

On a serious note, I think the Reverent will bring a “tank” to the table. Will it be of any use in the system we have now? No idea.

Bearhugger.4326:

The fact that people almost never have to change gear in min-maxed runs, not even between multiple damage-oriented sets, is very telling of how much Arenanet has failed to make their PvE be a “play whatever you want”.

Of course, it’s basic logic
Not being forced into certain armors so that we can do all content the way we want is the proof that arenanet has failed to make pve “play how you want”

Considering my inventory is already filled with consumables, weapons, sigils and other crap and I can barely fit junk into it during a dungeon run. The last thing I need is multiple armor sets taking up even more space just because people demanded it be mandatory.

In a fully optimized run, people swap out traits and weapon for every encounter and that should be enough.