Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

That’s your answer? Just because some people have crappy ping or a bad computer or whatever else, they need to make all the rewards available to those? So they should put everything as a possible drop from moa in Queensdale? I mean that’s something absolutely everyone can do. Nice logic.

There are 11 pages to many to read but am I correct in saying that OP doesn’t like content gated behind raids and esports etc?

If that is the case I can’t help but laugh. The legendary armour is not in game yet and even if it were it is only worth obtaining for the skin alone. Ascended armour and the use of stat swapping in the MF allows players to have legendary style armour already. It is just a prestige thing for players that can clear the raid and if the skin is horrible then people will transmute them anyway.

About pvp, the only thing obtainable through pvp with any ‘hardcore’ element is the back item. Given enough time spent in pvp you can get to legendary tier without having to be pro at pvp. Also guess what there is a pve version of the back piece as well through fractals and you don’t need to do a single fractal over 50 to obtain it.

Casuals cry about everything they can’t get and are blind to everything that they can. Look at the amount of cheap ascended weapons you can get through the elite specialisation collection tracks, legendary weapons old and new, various amulets from story achievements.

I like that they are putting in challenging group content as the only way this game is going to survive is if they keep the ‘hardcore’ community still playing. I hate the game being dumbed down to accommodate for casuals. We have had 3 years of casual content, it’s time for a challenge.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

That’s your answer? Just because some people have crappy ping or a bad computer or whatever else, they need to make all the rewards available to those? So they should put everything as a possible drop from moa in Queensdale? I mean that’s something absolutely everyone can do. Nice logic.

No we should all leave the game. That’s what we should. Leave 5% of you raiders left in the game, so that you can be happy. Until there is no more game because I don’t believe there are enough of you to support an entire development team.

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Just as you can lobby for your hard core content that a small percentage of the player base will ever finish, I can lobby for rewards from that content to be available to me, if I really won’t enjoy that content. The precedent is there, making dungeon rewards available to SPvP players, so why not?

I’d rather do a PvP reward track than raid. Or even play WvW to get it. I don’t love the idea of raids, and if I feel like I can’t get what I want in the game without doing something time consuming that I can’t stand, I will in fact, feel disenfranchised.

Maybe you personally don’t care that players feel this way but Anet should.

Vayne.8563:

I wouldn’t mind titles given to people who achieve hard content. But unique skins or the only way to get a specific class of armor…that I do mind. Raids are too hard to lock stuff like that behind.

Dungeons were hard too. This wing is already pugable. By the time legendary armor will be out pugs will speedclear wing 1 and will be comfortable in wing 2.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Vayne.8563:

I wouldn’t mind titles given to people who achieve hard content. But unique skins or the only way to get a specific class of armor…that I do mind. Raids are too hard to lock stuff like that behind.

Dungeons were hard too. This wing is already pugable. By the time legendary armor will be out pugs will speedclear wing 1 and will be comfortable in wing 2.

Dungeons were too hard? lol Okay then.

Edit: Dungeons don’t have an enrage timer. You can go in there with a group of people who dont’ really know and still beat stuff. You don’t have to have specific builds for most dungeon paths, or specific armor sets.

There were still people who insisted on zerker gear, but I run dungeons with anyone. And we succeeded. There were a couple of harder paths. But you could run one of the easier paths every day for tokens.

Until my guild takes down the Vale Guardian, I can’t agree with this.

Once we do, I’ll stop complaining. lol

Vayne.8563:

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Where do you draw the line with this “alternative” path(s) of yours? And I’m more interested in the why you’d exclude anyone below that line. Or you want everyone to get all the rewards regardless of their personal skill level, time commitment or any other attribute they might have.

So which is it? Should everyone have access to all the rewards or not? And if yes, we go back to the moa of Queensdale, if no, then why not?

Vayne.8563:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Vayne.8563:

I wouldn’t mind titles given to people who achieve hard content. But unique skins or the only way to get a specific class of armor…that I do mind. Raids are too hard to lock stuff like that behind.

Dungeons were hard too. This wing is already pugable. By the time legendary armor will be out pugs will speedclear wing 1 and will be comfortable in wing 2.

Dungeons were too hard? lol Okay then.

Check old threads in dungeon forum if you were not playing around release.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Where do you draw the line with this “alternative” path(s) of yours? And I’m more interested in the why you’d exclude anyone below that line. Or you want everyone to get all the rewards regardless of their personal skill level, time commitment or any other attribute they might have.

So which is it? Should everyone have access to all the rewards or not? And if yes, we go back to the moa of Queensdale, if no, then why not?

If you don’t want to do the raid, you should have a path to get the rewards, even if it’s expensive, or long, or contains some RNG.

My real solution was to make the gear sellable, just like most of the gear was sellable in GW 1. You could sell tormented weapons. Rare minis. Destroyer Weapons. Voltaic SPears, Celestial compasses.

Raiders could get extra cash, and everyone else could save their pennies. That’s a better solution to me.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

If casuals want hardcore rewards they should become hardcore – it’s that simple.

For once you and I agree on something.

The problem is that HoT doesn’t allow me to play through, effectively, without being hardcore.

HoT doesn’t require you to be hardcore to play it – it does require you to sink time into it.
Like Vayne – you can be casual but sink a lot of time – HoT doesn’t really need you to improve that much but it gates things to artificially increase the length of the expansion.

Okay there’s a definite learning curve in HoT and a lot depends also on things like whether you’re used to meleeing or ranging.

For example, I can melee all over the world, but I have a lot more trouble meleeing in HoT. I can do it, but I don’t always survive the experience.

On my ranger it hasn’t changed that much. On my warrior, I tend to use my bow a lot more in HoT.

I know a guy who likes to melee. It’s what he enjoys. He’s in my guild. He doesn’t like HoT because he feels it forces him to range. It doesn’t really but it’s certainly easier for some of the encounters.

But as a casual player open world HoT is still very accessible if you’re slightly interested in figuring out how to make things work for you.
Yes – like you said – melee vs range – there are very few ( possibly none) mobs in HoT that you can’t kite to death by running in a circle and ranged dpsing them.
You can do that solo.

And a lot of the difficulty added wasn’t added to appeal to “hardcore” but also to make you more dependent on other players. That’s why we have events that require more people – why we have huge metas on every map.
Because one of the core complaints with core GW2 maps was that everyone was doing their own thing and there was no sense of togetherness or aiding others in a huge fight – HoT sought to address this by “forcing” the community to band together.

Regarding your friend – we were all “forced” to range at some point – I was forced in core GW2 at release. It’s just how it is. At some point people will have to simply improve at the game.

the biggest problem with HoT is that some of the content/areas are locked away behind a map timer. Or events. this also makes a lot of HoT inaccessible to casual gamers. Not to mention frustrating, why do I need to wait 30 mins for a challenge to open up? why these are locked behind meta events I’ll never know. I know some will say to make sure the maps are always done, but they wont always be done. not to the same level, and you could end up having very little time to do said challenges, or mapping places like DS.

Vayne.8563:

I wouldn’t mind titles given to people who achieve hard content. But unique skins or the only way to get a specific class of armor…that I do mind. Raids are too hard to lock stuff like that behind.

The raid collection only awards a full set of ascended gear. That is obtainable by anyone. We have no word on how the gifts will be obtained. If your problem is you can’t get a full ascended set because you can’t kill the first boss then you need to find a better set of people to do raids with or just accept that this type of content is not suited to you. Whether that is wrong or not is another thing.

For a long time there has been nothing for people dedicated to certain game modes to really focus on and show that they worked hard for a title, weapon or armour etc because if you look in front of you you would see another player with the exact same thing.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

If casuals want hardcore rewards they should become hardcore – it’s that simple.

For once you and I agree on something.

The problem is that HoT doesn’t allow me to play through, effectively, without being hardcore.

HoT doesn’t require you to be hardcore to play it – it does require you to sink time into it.
Like Vayne – you can be casual but sink a lot of time – HoT doesn’t really need you to improve that much but it gates things to artificially increase the length of the expansion.

Okay there’s a definite learning curve in HoT and a lot depends also on things like whether you’re used to meleeing or ranging.

For example, I can melee all over the world, but I have a lot more trouble meleeing in HoT. I can do it, but I don’t always survive the experience.

On my ranger it hasn’t changed that much. On my warrior, I tend to use my bow a lot more in HoT.

I know a guy who likes to melee. It’s what he enjoys. He’s in my guild. He doesn’t like HoT because he feels it forces him to range. It doesn’t really but it’s certainly easier for some of the encounters.

But as a casual player open world HoT is still very accessible if you’re slightly interested in figuring out how to make things work for you.
Yes – like you said – melee vs range – there are very few ( possibly none) mobs in HoT that you can’t kite to death by running in a circle and ranged dpsing them.
You can do that solo.

And a lot of the difficulty added wasn’t added to appeal to “hardcore” but also to make you more dependent on other players. That’s why we have events that require more people – why we have huge metas on every map.
Because one of the core complaints with core GW2 maps was that everyone was doing their own thing and there was no sense of togetherness or aiding others in a huge fight – HoT sought to address this by “forcing” the community to band together.

Regarding your friend – we were all “forced” to range at some point – I was forced in core GW2 at release. It’s just how it is. At some point people will have to simply improve at the game.

the biggest problem with HoT is that some of the content/areas are locked away behind a map timer. Or events. this also makes a lot of HoT inaccessible to casual gamers. Not to mention frustrating, why do I need to wait 30 mins for a challenge to open up? why these are locked behind meta events I’ll never know. I know some will say to make sure the maps are always done, but they wont always be done. not to the same level, and you could end up having very little time to do said challenges, or mapping places like DS.

I agree with this. You have to be a special kind of patient to be a casual player trying to zone completion or get a mastery point you need and continually have to wait for something else to happen.

I’m fortunate that I have as much free time as I have, but not everyone does.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Where do you draw the line with this “alternative” path(s) of yours? And I’m more interested in the why you’d exclude anyone below that line. Or you want everyone to get all the rewards regardless of their personal skill level, time commitment or any other attribute they might have.

So which is it? Should everyone have access to all the rewards or not? And if yes, we go back to the moa of Queensdale, if no, then why not?

If you don’t want to do the raid, you should have a path to get the rewards, even if it’s expensive, or long, or contains some RNG.

My real solution was to make the gear sellable, just like most of the gear was sellable in GW 1. You could sell tormented weapons. Rare minis. Destroyer Weapons. Voltaic SPears, Celestial compasses.

Raiders could get extra cash, and everyone else could save their pennies. That’s a better solution to me.

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one? Are you seriously annoyed you can’t get a skin?

Sird.4536:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Where do you draw the line with this “alternative” path(s) of yours? And I’m more interested in the why you’d exclude anyone below that line. Or you want everyone to get all the rewards regardless of their personal skill level, time commitment or any other attribute they might have.

So which is it? Should everyone have access to all the rewards or not? And if yes, we go back to the moa of Queensdale, if no, then why not?

If you don’t want to do the raid, you should have a path to get the rewards, even if it’s expensive, or long, or contains some RNG.

My real solution was to make the gear sellable, just like most of the gear was sellable in GW 1. You could sell tormented weapons. Rare minis. Destroyer Weapons. Voltaic SPears, Celestial compasses.

Raiders could get extra cash, and everyone else could save their pennies. That’s a better solution to me.

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one? Are you seriously annoyed you can’t get a skin?

The point of raids is challenging content., People asked for it and got it. But they don’t JUST want challenging content. They want unique rewards.

If you’re only doing the raid for the reward…that’s your answer right there.

I am doing it for the challenge the reward is a nice bonus. My guild is only a 10 man guild which is currently on a break (I hope it’s on a break or I better look for another guild lol). If I don’t ever get the armour then I won’t be disappointed as what is legendary armour? I can stat swap my ascended for a few gold no big deal.

I remember in WoW they introduced a way for people that did not raid to get 2 pieces of high end raid gear by simply doing dungeons. I spent months trying to get one of those pieces and never got luck and yet some dungeon runner had the piece after one day of running every dungeon. I stopped playing WoW after that.

Legendary armour will not give the wearer any boost (maybe a ego boost) over someone who does not. If the armour skin is terrible people are going to transmute it anyway. If I see someone with the armour and I don’t have it then no big deal because my ascended set is exactly the same as his legendary armour set.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Because people like getting them.

The questio of why developers add rewards to their content was a follow up to the previous phrase. If, as it is claimed, content alone can keep people interested for years, and it doesn’t matter where the reward will come from (so content doesn’t have exclusive reward) why even add the reward in the first place? After all, content alone should drive the game and those who want a challenge should be happy with playing their challenging content and not need some rewards to go with it.

Where do you draw the line on how hard something is to obtain? Or the alternative is to give everything to everyone, then why not adding Twilight as a loot drop from moas? Or give it as a level 10 reward. I mean according to posters, where someone gets a reward shouldn’t matter, that’s what is being said to me.

First of all, I never said content alone is enough to keep people playing. It’s enough to keep SOME people playing.

But probably not enough by percentage to run an MMO. This is particularly true due to the number of people who run content they don’t enjoy just to get rewards. I didn’t try for Liadri too hard because I found unenjoyable. I don’t play MMOs to solo.

But there are people who hated the content but tried it over and over again until they got that mini. I’m thinking that you get enough of that and some people will stop playing.

See, I enjoy the new zones and I can play them for ages. I don’t even think about the rewards. But I’m not a typical player.

The more rewards in the game beyond the realm of most people to get, the higher the threshold, the more people will start to question if this game is the game for them. That’s just simple human nature.

You didn’t say it, others did.

People are asking for alternative ways to get the rewards, I get that. But one “alternative” might still be hard for some people, just see precursors, the alternative (crafting) is still hard to do for most people, maybe harder than mystic forging it or getting it as drop. So the next question is, how many alternatives do you wish to be added in order to be happy? And where do you draw the line on how easy obtaining the reward is?

I mean, why not add all the rewards as level up things or add them as drops from moas. Something everyone can do, then nobody will complain because they have bad ping, bad computer or cannot perform 100% for reasons beyond their power to fix. Would that make players happy?

I don’t mind hard rewards. I do mind rewards gated behind content that is problematical for people that live in my area of the world. It’s not like six of us alone in a room. There are tens of thousands of people, perhaps even more, who play from Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Phillipines, all over the place, really. There are tons of people who live in rural areas around the world who have lousy connections. I’m sure we have enough numbers to gain a bit of consideration. More than 10% of guys are colorbind. It makes red circles a problem.

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

Dungeon rewards were given to people in PvP, even though dungeons are quite easy to do. Raids aren’t as easy as dungeons but the only way to get raid rewards is raid.

I broke down and I’m going to start raiding with my guild a week from this Tuesday. I’m not happy that I’m doing this. It’s a form of capitulation. It’s also an issue for a casual guild like mine, because it’s going to create haves and have nots. Not everyone in my guild is good enough, well enough, or has a good enough connection to raid. It makes me sad that some people will be denied this.

My hope is that a group of us get good enough to cycle some people in who have less than ideal conditions. But the bottom line is, I don’t think this is good for my guild. I don’t particularly think it’s great for the game.

I don’t know what percentage of people raid, but if 10% of the population are raiders because they enjoy raiding and 20% of the population feel disenfranchised and left out, then I don’t think it’s a good decision on Anet’s part.

That said, I don’t have those numbers. I don’t know what percentage raid and what percentage have stopped logging in or play less do to a perception that the game is moving in a direction and not taking people with it.

This thread should be evidence that a least some people feel disenfrachised.

And I’m not even one of them, because I really like the new zones. I really like the metas, particularly VB and DS. And I really like the elite specializations I’ve played with so far.

What I don’t like is feeling pressured to do content to get something specific because I want it, even though I feel I won’t enjoy the content.

I get what you’re saying Vayne – it makes sense – however I do feel that just because Anet sells the game worldwide doesn’t mean they’re automatically bound to make sure that regardless how good your internet connection or PC specs are you can play the game.

I mean – let’s face it – there’s a point where each individual has to figure out for himself if he can or cannot properly play a game. The developer isn’t really obliged to give you a helping hand if you happen to be unable to play the game properly due to local factors.
Your ability to play and enjoy a game should be something you think about before you buy said game.

Dungeon rewards were given to people in PvP, even though dungeons are quite easy to do. Raids aren’t as easy as dungeons but the only way to get raid rewards is raid.

Because dungeons were designed in such a way that every party can participate and still complete provided they stick to it – they are fail-proof in most regards.

I still don’t believe that Raid rewards should be obtainable in PvP – since one is one thing and one is another but if Raid rewards should be obtained in PvP then they should only be available to those players who are Legendary rank in the new league system.

Is it alternative? yes – is it easy? no.

If alternatives are to be found care must be taken that the alternate paths are not easier – but different and still difficult.

I broke down and I’m going to start raiding with my guild a week from this Tuesday. I’m not happy that I’m doing this. It’s a form of capitulation.

This is exactly what Anet wanted you to do – and now you’re doing it – their strategy works. You’re unhappy now but you’ll get over it.

Same thing happened to me when the first WvW season thing started – they announced “super secret rewards” for doing the WvW meta so I had to begrudgingly haul my rear end out of PvE and grind WvW for said rewards – and it turned out the rewards weren’t that great – but their strategy worked.

In the end I didn’t like it much at fist but It was the first time I seriously did some WvW and overall it opened me up to the idea of WvW – which I did more of until Anet left it to rot in the state it’s currently in.

The point here being – by gating rewards behind a specific form of content Anet will get players to play it and maybe even stick to it in the long run.

. It’s also an issue for a casual guild like mine, because it’s going to create haves and have nots. Not everyone in my guild is good enough, well enough, or has a good enough connection to raid. It makes me sad that some people will be denied this.

That’s alright though – I don’t know how you see things but not everyone should have everything. I’m a pretty good player and have quite a bit of stuff but compared to some guys you could consider me a have not. I’m fine with that. So should your guildmates – and if they’re not there’s always something you can do if you really care about it enough.

My hope is that a group of us get good enough to cycle some people in who have less than ideal conditions. But the bottom line is, I don’t think this is good for my guild. I don’t particularly think it’s great for the game.

There are other areas that I consider good/bad for the game but ultimately it’s Anet who calls these shots.

I don’t know what percentage of people raid, but if 10% of the population are raiders because they enjoy raiding and 20% of the population feel disenfranchised and left out, then I don’t think it’s a good decision on Anet’s part

Apart from those numbers being purely fictive you should also factor in the number of people that GW2 has “lost” or better said never gained during its previous 3 years because everyone knew that GW2 had “no endgame”.
Or factor in the people who left because of “no endgame” during those 3 years.

The problem with speculation on what percentage of the player base wants what is that you have no numbers.
On top of that what people want and are willing to accept changes with time – so while many might be upset with Raids now – in time a good portion of them might simply accept it and move on.

This thread should be evidence that a least some people feel disenfrachised.

Yes – true – and that’s true for almost every thread – since most threads on these forms are complaints and or people being upset.

What I don’t like is feeling pressured to do content to get something specific because I want it, even though I feel I won’t enjoy the content.

With Anet being so far behind with developing content they can’t really afford to leave the decision of what content you play up to you – they’re going to want you to do every bit of content they put out there to keep you “working on something” and to keep the content populated.

With so little content being added ( look at HoT’s size) they’ve been pushing a lot to get players to do all of it.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Astralporing.1957:

Harper.4173:

If however that reward is bought – or obtained in through an easier process – then yes – it is devalued because your statement is put under doubt – did he earn it the hard way or just bought it?
Is he good or not?

Maybe you don’t see it, but you are again reinforcing what i said before. That statement is only important where there are people that did not do that content (because in a game where there are no casuals and everyone is a succesful raider, everyone has that mini, so having it is no statement at all). It is also important only when other people care. It’s not for you – it is for others. So, in the end, you need people that can’t do that content, and you need them to care that you can. Without it, your reward is meaningless.

I on the other hand do not need such statements to show to others. The stuff i wear is for myself, and the only judgment i might make about others based on how they are dressed is about their style and aestethics. And the meaning of the reward lies purely in how useful it is to me (statwise, or aestethically).

(also, as someone mentioned your argument is weakened by the fact that you can get carried at those encounters)

Actually, I can see Harper’s point.

In GW, there were a lot of titles. Legendary Guardian and Legendary Vanquisher meant you’d completed all the hard more story missions and cleared all the hard mode zones, respectively. I enjoyed displaying those titles, because it meant something to me. I did not care how many people had them, I only cared that I did.

Is it possible there are players who want to lord it over other players? Sure, there are all kinds in game just as in life. However, I don’t think one can accurately generalize that desire to the entire hardcore demographic. You can say that all players who want exclusive rewards in hard content are looking to feel superior to those who don’t have those rewards. However, there are many cases where you’d be wrong.

Thank you – finally – someone gets it.

I don’t hate casual players – I don’t want them to be “second rate citizens” or not to have cool items.
At the same time I want the rewards associated with hard content that I beat to remain hard to obtain – because otherwise the statement they make on my behalf becomes null and void.

I don’t mind if others have said rewards provided they work as hard as I did to obtain them.
I do mind them being handed out through other easier or more comfortable ways – because it means my display of said unique rewards no longer holds its intended message.

I wouldn’t mind titles given to people who achieve hard content. But unique skins or the only way to get a specific class of armor…that I do mind. Raids are too hard to lock stuff like that behind.

I mean a WvW guy with a lot of characters would find legendary armor very appealing maybe. But he might hate raiding. Seems to me like a bad deal for that player.

I get what you’re saying – but the way I see it is this:

Anet is producing raids – they want you to raid, so that WvW player has to do Raids or not get the armor – Anet is hoping to get him to raid – sure it might not work for every player – but I suspect they believe a majority of players will accept the raid.

Same goes for WvW’s first season – I mentioned it before – they got a lot of PvE players to do WvW then by promising “super secret cool rewards”.

Same went with fractals on release – you could only get ascended rings in FOTM for a good while – want the cool new stuff? Go do the content we want you to do now.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

That’s your answer? Just because some people have crappy ping or a bad computer or whatever else, they need to make all the rewards available to those? So they should put everything as a possible drop from moa in Queensdale? I mean that’s something absolutely everyone can do. Nice logic.

No we should all leave the game. That’s what we should. Leave 5% of you raiders left in the game, so that you can be happy. Until there is no more game because I don’t believe there are enough of you to support an entire development team.

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Just as you can lobby for your hard core content that a small percentage of the player base will ever finish, I can lobby for rewards from that content to be available to me, if I really won’t enjoy that content. The precedent is there, making dungeon rewards available to SPvP players, so why not?

I’d rather do a PvP reward track than raid. Or even play WvW to get it. I don’t love the idea of raids, and if I feel like I can’t get what I want in the game without doing something time consuming that I can’t stand, I will in fact, feel disenfranchised.

Maybe you personally don’t care that players feel this way but Anet should.

Sure – go ahead if that’s what you want to do – I guarantee you though that only a small portion of your “mad because raids have exclusive content” will actually leave and abandon their investment in the game.
Most players will stay and suck it up – and that’s exactly what Anet knows as well.

If they genuinely believed that adding harder content and Raids would cause too many players to leave and destroy the game (their business and source of income) they wouldn’t have made this move.

HoT is a calculated business strategy – they know what they’re doing.
Are some people mad? yes. Are some people going to leave? yes.
Is that number so high that it will affect the game? no – otherwise HoT’s hard content and Raids wouldn’t exist.
If anything I suspect that more people came to GW2 post-HoT than left.

Like I said before – PvP dungeon precedent is fine – but just as dungeons were easy when PvP alternatives were introduced – the PvP alternative for Raids should be extremely hard.

I also agree for a super easy casual way to get this content – but at an incredibly slow rate – let’s say daily log-ins for the next 5 years should get you legendary armor.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

If casuals want hardcore rewards they should become hardcore – it’s that simple.

For once you and I agree on something.

The problem is that HoT doesn’t allow me to play through, effectively, without being hardcore.

HoT doesn’t require you to be hardcore to play it – it does require you to sink time into it.
Like Vayne – you can be casual but sink a lot of time – HoT doesn’t really need you to improve that much but it gates things to artificially increase the length of the expansion.

Okay there’s a definite learning curve in HoT and a lot depends also on things like whether you’re used to meleeing or ranging.

For example, I can melee all over the world, but I have a lot more trouble meleeing in HoT. I can do it, but I don’t always survive the experience.

On my ranger it hasn’t changed that much. On my warrior, I tend to use my bow a lot more in HoT.

I know a guy who likes to melee. It’s what he enjoys. He’s in my guild. He doesn’t like HoT because he feels it forces him to range. It doesn’t really but it’s certainly easier for some of the encounters.

But as a casual player open world HoT is still very accessible if you’re slightly interested in figuring out how to make things work for you.
Yes – like you said – melee vs range – there are very few ( possibly none) mobs in HoT that you can’t kite to death by running in a circle and ranged dpsing them.
You can do that solo.

And a lot of the difficulty added wasn’t added to appeal to “hardcore” but also to make you more dependent on other players. That’s why we have events that require more people – why we have huge metas on every map.
Because one of the core complaints with core GW2 maps was that everyone was doing their own thing and there was no sense of togetherness or aiding others in a huge fight – HoT sought to address this by “forcing” the community to band together.

Regarding your friend – we were all “forced” to range at some point – I was forced in core GW2 at release. It’s just how it is. At some point people will have to simply improve at the game.

the biggest problem with HoT is that some of the content/areas are locked away behind a map timer. Or events. this also makes a lot of HoT inaccessible to casual gamers. Not to mention frustrating, why do I need to wait 30 mins for a challenge to open up? why these are locked behind meta events I’ll never know. I know some will say to make sure the maps are always done, but they wont always be done. not to the same level, and you could end up having very little time to do said challenges, or mapping places like DS.

News flash: it makes it inaccessible to hardcore players too.
Hardcore means I approach the game a certain way – I min/max, I play efficiently, I play hard and don’t waste time, I’m rewards oriented.
That doesn’t mean I have all day to stay on-point with Anet’s map timers.

Map timers make maps less accessible to everyone – not just casuals – because everyone has stuff to do besides GW2.

And yes – there are hardcore players that can play all day long – but there are also casual players ( that enjoy fun, relaxing, play whatever build they like and just don’t bother with efficiency) that can play all day long.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Because people like getting them.

The questio of why developers add rewards to their content was a follow up to the previous phrase. If, as it is claimed, content alone can keep people interested for years, and it doesn’t matter where the reward will come from (so content doesn’t have exclusive reward) why even add the reward in the first place? After all, content alone should drive the game and those who want a challenge should be happy with playing their challenging content and not need some rewards to go with it.

Where do you draw the line on how hard something is to obtain? Or the alternative is to give everything to everyone, then why not adding Twilight as a loot drop from moas? Or give it as a level 10 reward. I mean according to posters, where someone gets a reward shouldn’t matter, that’s what is being said to me.

First of all, I never said content alone is enough to keep people playing. It’s enough to keep SOME people playing.

But probably not enough by percentage to run an MMO. This is particularly true due to the number of people who run content they don’t enjoy just to get rewards. I didn’t try for Liadri too hard because I found unenjoyable. I don’t play MMOs to solo.

But there are people who hated the content but tried it over and over again until they got that mini. I’m thinking that you get enough of that and some people will stop playing.

See, I enjoy the new zones and I can play them for ages. I don’t even think about the rewards. But I’m not a typical player.

The more rewards in the game beyond the realm of most people to get, the higher the threshold, the more people will start to question if this game is the game for them. That’s just simple human nature.

You didn’t say it, others did.

People are asking for alternative ways to get the rewards, I get that. But one “alternative” might still be hard for some people, just see precursors, the alternative (crafting) is still hard to do for most people, maybe harder than mystic forging it or getting it as drop. So the next question is, how many alternatives do you wish to be added in order to be happy? And where do you draw the line on how easy obtaining the reward is?

I mean, why not add all the rewards as level up things or add them as drops from moas. Something everyone can do, then nobody will complain because they have bad ping, bad computer or cannot perform 100% for reasons beyond their power to fix. Would that make players happy?

I don’t mind hard rewards. I do mind rewards gated behind content that is problematical for people that live in my area of the world. It’s not like six of us alone in a room. There are tens of thousands of people, perhaps even more, who play from Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Phillipines, all over the place, really. There are tons of people who live in rural areas around the world who have lousy connections. I’m sure we have enough numbers to gain a bit of consideration. More than 10% of guys are colorbind. It makes red circles a problem.

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

Dungeon rewards were given to people in PvP, even though dungeons are quite easy to do. Raids aren’t as easy as dungeons but the only way to get raid rewards is raid.

I broke down and I’m going to start raiding with my guild a week from this Tuesday. I’m not happy that I’m doing this. It’s a form of capitulation. It’s also an issue for a casual guild like mine, because it’s going to create haves and have nots. Not everyone in my guild is good enough, well enough, or has a good enough connection to raid. It makes me sad that some people will be denied this.

My hope is that a group of us get good enough to cycle some people in who have less than ideal conditions. But the bottom line is, I don’t think this is good for my guild. I don’t particularly think it’s great for the game.

I don’t know what percentage of people raid, but if 10% of the population are raiders because they enjoy raiding and 20% of the population feel disenfranchised and left out, then I don’t think it’s a good decision on Anet’s part.

That said, I don’t have those numbers. I don’t know what percentage raid and what percentage have stopped logging in or play less do to a perception that the game is moving in a direction and not taking people with it.

This thread should be evidence that a least some people feel disenfrachised.

And I’m not even one of them, because I really like the new zones. I really like the metas, particularly VB and DS. And I really like the elite specializations I’ve played with so far.

What I don’t like is feeling pressured to do content to get something specific because I want it, even though I feel I won’t enjoy the content.

I get what you’re saying Vayne – it makes sense – however I do feel that just because Anet sells the game worldwide doesn’t mean they’re automatically bound to make sure that regardless how good your internet connection or PC specs are you can play the game.

I mean – let’s face it – there’s a point where each individual has to figure out for himself if he can or cannot properly play a game. The developer isn’t really obliged to give you a helping hand if you happen to be unable to play the game properly due to local factors.
Your ability to play and enjoy a game should be something you think about before you buy said game.

Dungeon rewards were given to people in PvP, even though dungeons are quite easy to do. Raids aren’t as easy as dungeons but the only way to get raid rewards is raid.

Because dungeons were designed in such a way that every party can participate and still complete provided they stick to it – they are fail-proof in most regards.

I still don’t believe that Raid rewards should be obtainable in PvP – since one is one thing and one is another but if Raid rewards should be obtained in PvP then they should only be available to those players who are Legendary rank in the new league system.

Is it alternative? yes – is it easy? no.

If alternatives are to be found care must be taken that the alternate paths are not easier – but different and still difficult.

I broke down and I’m going to start raiding with my guild a week from this Tuesday. I’m not happy that I’m doing this. It’s a form of capitulation.

This is exactly what Anet wanted you to do – and now you’re doing it – their strategy works. You’re unhappy now but you’ll get over it.

Same thing happened to me when the first WvW season thing started – they announced “super secret rewards” for doing the WvW meta so I had to begrudgingly haul my rear end out of PvE and grind WvW for said rewards – and it turned out the rewards weren’t that great – but their strategy worked.

In the end I didn’t like it much at fist but It was the first time I seriously did some WvW and overall it opened me up to the idea of WvW – which I did more of until Anet left it to rot in the state it’s currently in.

The point here being – by gating rewards behind a specific form of content Anet will get players to play it and maybe even stick to it in the long run.

. It’s also an issue for a casual guild like mine, because it’s going to create haves and have nots. Not everyone in my guild is good enough, well enough, or has a good enough connection to raid. It makes me sad that some people will be denied this.

That’s alright though – I don’t know how you see things but not everyone should have everything. I’m a pretty good player and have quite a bit of stuff but compared to some guys you could consider me a have not. I’m fine with that. So should your guildmates – and if they’re not there’s always something you can do if you really care about it enough.

My hope is that a group of us get good enough to cycle some people in who have less than ideal conditions. But the bottom line is, I don’t think this is good for my guild. I don’t particularly think it’s great for the game.

There are other areas that I consider good/bad for the game but ultimately it’s Anet who calls these shots.

I don’t know what percentage of people raid, but if 10% of the population are raiders because they enjoy raiding and 20% of the population feel disenfranchised and left out, then I don’t think it’s a good decision on Anet’s part

Apart from those numbers being purely fictive you should also factor in the number of people that GW2 has “lost” or better said never gained during its previous 3 years because everyone knew that GW2 had “no endgame”.
Or factor in the people who left because of “no endgame” during those 3 years.

The problem with speculation on what percentage of the player base wants what is that you have no numbers.
On top of that what people want and are willing to accept changes with time – so while many might be upset with Raids now – in time a good portion of them might simply accept it and move on.

This thread should be evidence that a least some people feel disenfrachised.

Yes – true – and that’s true for almost every thread – since most threads on these forms are complaints and or people being upset.

What I don’t like is feeling pressured to do content to get something specific because I want it, even though I feel I won’t enjoy the content.

With Anet being so far behind with developing content they can’t really afford to leave the decision of what content you play up to you – they’re going to want you to do every bit of content they put out there to keep you “working on something” and to keep the content populated.

With so little content being added ( look at HoT’s size) they’ve been pushing a lot to get players to do all of it.

Actually, it does make sense for Anet to make sure everyone can play the game, for them. Losing your international audience, even if indivdually we’re not as many players as the US, collectively we’re probably a lot more than you think.

It’s in Anet’s best interest to encourage more people from more countries to play. Saying that we should be second class citizens because we don’t live in the US is probably not going to endear you to a lot of people.

And I’m not asking them not to have raids. I’m asking them to not lock rewards behind stuff that’s literally harder for us to do. As I said there are gold rewards I’m sure that are impossible for me to get, and behind each one, there’s a mastery point.

That means I pretty much have to do everything else whether I want to or not. In that case, Anet did give me options. Other ways to earn those points.

My argument is if making those rewards available to people who can’t get them by playing is such a burden for the raiding community, then I’d rather not see raids at all, because my enjoyment of the game gets curtailed.

And since there are a lot of people in the US with bad internet connections too, older computers, you’re not just looking at foreigners. You could be looking at a significant percentage of the playerbase.

WoW is one of the most popular MMOs of all time and one of it’s appeals is that you can play it on a potato. Anything will run it. That’s good for business.

Making it so people are left out or left behind because of where they live…pretty sure that’s bad for business.

Vayne.8563:

Sird.4536:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Where do you draw the line with this “alternative” path(s) of yours? And I’m more interested in the why you’d exclude anyone below that line. Or you want everyone to get all the rewards regardless of their personal skill level, time commitment or any other attribute they might have.

So which is it? Should everyone have access to all the rewards or not? And if yes, we go back to the moa of Queensdale, if no, then why not?

If you don’t want to do the raid, you should have a path to get the rewards, even if it’s expensive, or long, or contains some RNG.

My real solution was to make the gear sellable, just like most of the gear was sellable in GW 1. You could sell tormented weapons. Rare minis. Destroyer Weapons. Voltaic SPears, Celestial compasses.

Raiders could get extra cash, and everyone else could save their pennies. That’s a better solution to me.

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one? Are you seriously annoyed you can’t get a skin?

The point of raids is challenging content., People asked for it and got it. But they don’t JUST want challenging content. They want unique rewards.

If you’re only doing the raid for the reward…that’s your answer right there.

This is an MMO. People generally play it just for rewards.

GW2 is driven by cosmetic upgrades – cool and unique skins.
No content in GW2 would be done more than 2-3-4 times by most players unless it gave out some reward.

MMO’s aren’t games that you play for 100 hours and quit – they’re games people sink hundreds and thousands of hours into – because that’s the way they’re built.

But you’re not doing it for the gameplay – because once you’ve done something the first few times you’ve got no reason to do it again – so Anet gives you associated rewards.

This is true for everything from Raids to Open World Events.

If the rewards aren’t worth it – people do it a few times to see the content then never touch it.

Look at how champion bags had to be added for people to bother with champs.
Look at how dungeon rewards had to be buffed for people to start doing most paths – and then how dungeons were dropped after the rewards were nerfed.
Look at the numerous threads that say WvW is unrewarding.
Look at how PvP rewards have been constantly increased so PvP players get rewarded for doing PvP.

This is an MMO – every type of content has to come with rewards – the harder the content the better or more unique those rewards have to be in order for people to keep doing said content.

This is a general trend in almost all Multiplayer games – even more gameplay oriented ones such as FPS games.
Look at the new Call of Duty games – it’s not just playing to have some fun gun on gun action – you have stuff to do – weapon camos to unlock, levels to earn, prestiges to go through( sort of like a level reset), challenges to complete and get cool bonus visual things.

Actually, it does make sense for Anet to make sure everyone can play the game, for them. Losing your international audience, even if indivdually we’re not as many players as the US, collectively we’re probably a lot more than you think.

Sure – but they can’t balance the entire game around outliers. Not every encounter can and should be balanced around someone having 200 ping.

It’s in Anet’s best interest to encourage more people from more countries to play. Saying that we should be second class citizens because we don’t live in the US is probably not going to endear you to a lot of people.

I play from Europe and get good ping – I do believe most GW2 players are in areas of the game that get decent performance. I don’t believe they can make the game run perfect for everybody.

And it’s not on them to do that. It would be good – but they’re not obliged to do it – because you yourself have to decide whether or not you should buy a game based on whether or not you can play it.

I mean – I play BF4 – and can connect to US servers but usually with a very high latency (ping). Does that mean it’s EA’s fault that I can’t play on US servers properly? No.
Is EA obliged to change the game’s netcode to ensure I get better gunplay at 300+ ping ?No.
So what happens then? I play on EU servers – and if I couldn’t play on EU servers – say they didn’t exist I simply wouldn’t play. That simple.

What I wouldn’t do however is buy a game I know I can’t play properly then complain the game isn’t designed around my specific issues that I know I have.

My argument is if making those rewards available to people who can’t get them by playing is such a burden for the raiding community, then I’d rather not see raids at all, because my enjoyment of the game gets curtailed.

How can you hold such an absurd position? Anet should make unique rewards that are associated with playing at a very high skill and performance level available to people who can drums – not play at a high skill and performance level?
That’s just contradicting yourself.

I get that you’d rather not see Raids – but some of us would rather still see them.
Like I said – a system with a long log-in type of progression might be a thing – if it’s very long it should compensate for the lack of difficulty.

And since there are a lot of people in the US with bad internet connections too, older computers, you’re not just looking at foreigners. You could be looking at a significant percentage of the playerbase.

There’s a balance between graphics detail and performance. How many players would you lose if your game looked bad but ran on more computers and how many would you gain?

How profitable is it to invest in more data centers for servers versus using that money to create content or do something else.

These are questions Anet knows the answers to – and those answers reflect the current state of the game.

WoW is one of the most popular MMOs of all time and one of it’s appeals is that you can play it on a potato. Anything will run it. That’s good for business.

Yes – true – and one of the reasons I never played WoW is because it looks incredibly bad to me. It looks like a game that can run on a potato. That doesn’t cut it for me.

Look at the gaming industry right now – it’s a permanent race to improve your game’s visuals. Sometimes even at the cost of performance. People are looking for that – and deveopers are trying to strike a balance between accessibility and crisp visuals.

Making it so people are left out or left behind because of where they live…pretty sure that’s bad for business.

It depends on how many of these people there are, how many of them actually quit and other factors.
I’m sure that if this was more of a factor it would have been addressed. There’s always latency with this sort of thing – time will tell.

Harper.4173:

Actually, it does make sense for Anet to make sure everyone can play the game, for them. Losing your international audience, even if indivdually we’re not as many players as the US, collectively we’re probably a lot more than you think.

Sure – but they can’t balance the entire game around outliers. Not every encounter can and should be balanced around someone having 200 ping.

It’s in Anet’s best interest to encourage more people from more countries to play. Saying that we should be second class citizens because we don’t live in the US is probably not going to endear you to a lot of people.

I play from Europe and get good ping – I do believe most GW2 players are in areas of the game that get decent performance. I don’t believe they can make the game run perfect for everybody.

And it’s not on them to do that. It would be good – but they’re not obliged to do it – because you yourself have to decide whether or not you should buy a game based on whether or not you can play it.

I mean – I play BF4 – and can connect to US servers but usually with a very high latency (ping). Does that mean it’s EA’s fault that I can’t play on US servers properly? No.
Is EA obliged to change the game’s netcode to ensure I get better gunplay at 300+ ping ?No.
So what happens then? I play on EU servers – and if I couldn’t play on EU servers – say they didn’t exist I simply wouldn’t play. That simple.

What I wouldn’t do however is buy a game I know I can’t play properly then complain the game isn’t designed around my specific issues that I know I have.

My argument is if making those rewards available to people who can’t get them by playing is such a burden for the raiding community, then I’d rather not see raids at all, because my enjoyment of the game gets curtailed.

How can you hold such an absurd position? Anet should make unique rewards that are associated with playing at a very high skill and performance level available to people who can drums – not play at a high skill and performance level?
That’s just contradicting yourself.

I get that you’d rather not see Raids – but some of us would rather still see them.
Like I said – a system with a long log-in type of progression might be a thing – if it’s very long it should compensate for the lack of difficulty.

And since there are a lot of people in the US with bad internet connections too, older computers, you’re not just looking at foreigners. You could be looking at a significant percentage of the playerbase.

There’s a balance between graphics detail and performance. How many players would you lose if your game looked bad but ran on more computers and how many would you gain?

How profitable is it to invest in more data centers for servers versus using that money to create content or do something else.

These are questions Anet knows the answers to – and those answers reflect the current state of the game.

WoW is one of the most popular MMOs of all time and one of it’s appeals is that you can play it on a potato. Anything will run it. That’s good for business.

Yes – true – and one of the reasons I never played WoW is because it looks incredibly bad to me. It looks like a game that can run on a potato. That doesn’t cut it for me.

Look at the gaming industry right now – it’s a permanent race to improve your game’s visuals. Sometimes even at the cost of performance. People are looking for that – and deveopers are trying to strike a balance between accessibility and crisp visuals.

Making it so people are left out or left behind because of where they live…pretty sure that’s bad for business.

It depends on how many of these people there are, how many of them actually quit and other factors.
I’m sure that if this was more of a factor it would have been addressed. There’s always latency with this sort of thing – time will tell.

So how is asking for another path to rewards “balancing the whole game” around that?

Vayne.8563:

The precedent is there, making dungeon rewards available to SPvP players, so why not?

True. Also making Badges of Honor available from achievement chests. And removing WvW from map completion.
I don’t give a kitten about unique skins, titles, minis or any other vanity items obtained exclusively by Raids, Fractals, sPvP, WvW or Heavy grinding. The ability to change stats, legendary specific, is a QoL feature who must be accessible (not offered for free) to all players , regardless of the preferred game mode.
Make clear distinction between functionality and vanity. Do not favor or disfavor anyone , they all pay the same price.

Sird.4536:

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one?

…good question. Are you trying to imply that the primary point of raids is to gate rewards behind them? Because if so, why we even have them in this game?

Sird.4536:

Are you seriously annoyed you can’t get a skin?

…yes, of course. And if you think that’s weird, why are you annoyed by the very idea that any other way to get that skin can exist?

Vayne.8563:

So how is asking for another path to rewards “balancing the whole game” around that?

The real question is how you’d balance those alternative paths so they are all comparable with each other in some way or form. I don’t think it’s the easiest thing to balance these out, or if it even worth the trouble of balancing them in the first place.
But still no amount of balancing can be done for the legendary armor yet, unless we can make one with the non-alternate way. Remember that the Envoy Collection we have at the moment rewards ASCENDED armor, not the Legendary, and we only know 1/3 of it.

Any kind of talk about different paths to the legendary armor are way too premature at this point and I don’t think they’ll make it available no matter how many of these types of threads are made on the forums, at least not before the third wing, and the full Collection, is available. I have the strange feeling that they don’t even have the final version ready yet but I could be wrong.

I suggest everyone lets go of the legendary armor talk, at least for now, and go back to the other parts of Heart of Thorns that need changing, for casuals and hardcore players alike. Gated Hero Points, Champions guarding HPs at hard to reach places, long meta events and others affect everyone and CAN be discussed NOW.

Astralporing.1957:

Sird.4536:

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one?

…good question. Are you trying to imply that the primary point of raids is to gate rewards behind them? Because if so, why we even have them in this game?

You got it backwards. What’s the point of having any kind of content in the game? What’s the point of adding new content in the game if you can get the rewards from it playing the old content? It’s not gating rewards behind them, each type of content has its own rewards, why raids specifically should be different than any other type of content?

Astralporing.1957:

Sird.4536:

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one?

…good question. Are you trying to imply that the primary point of raids is to gate rewards behind them? Because if so, why we even have them in this game?

Sird.4536:

Are you seriously annoyed you can’t get a skin?

…yes, of course. And if you think that’s weird, why are you annoyed by the very idea that any other way to get that skin can exist?

Point of raids was to introduce challenging group content for the section of the pve community to focus on and drive the game to a different audience. Adding a huge reward to it gave it some type of replay ability otherwise there would not be an incentive to do raids once a guild has cleared it three or four times. Whether or not legendary armour should be gated behind completing all three wings is the discussion but I like that it is. It’s an incentive to get people to do raids and for those that clear it something visible to show off without giving them any huge advantage over anyone else.

This also answers the second question. Titles are not overly visible and you can’t even see your own title. This game is all about skins. There are skins gated behind the gem store because I don’t have the gold to convert to gems or a skin gated behind map reward (bladed chest) etc. But making them obtainable through an easier way will just trivialise the content. Why run Tier 4 VB when I can say collect 2000 airship parts and buy it. The content will be redundant then.

Rewards like these gated behind events such as these just means that person worked bloody hard to get it nothing more.

Also as maddoctor mentioned the reward for the raid collection is a full set of ascended armour. I am not currently in game but does it say it is a precursor for the legendary?

Sird.4536:

Also as maddoctor mentioned the reward for the raid collection is a full set of ascended armour. I am not currently in game but does it say it is a precursor for the legendary?

The description of the chest you get once you finish it says: Double-click to choose a set of Ascended Armor. Nothing about a precursor but it’s a curious choice of words “a set”. What does “set” mean? 18 armor pieces or just 1 of the weights (6 pieces)? So you’ll get the other 2 sets from other type of content or legendary armors will change their weight too? I guess we’ll know when the full thing is available.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Sird.4536:

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one?

…good question. Are you trying to imply that the primary point of raids is to gate rewards behind them? Because if so, why we even have them in this game?

You got it backwards. What’s the point of having any kind of content in the game?

Fun and entertainment.

maddoctor.2738:

What’s the point of adding new content in the game if you can get the rewards from it playing the old content?

Fun, as above. Remember, adding dungeon tracks to PvP didn’t invalidate the point of having dungeons in the slightest. Being able to buy ascended rings for laurels did not diminish Fractals.
Yes, any content does need rewards in order for players to draw full enjoyment from it (because we do like being rewarded), but those rewards do not need to be content exclusive.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s not gating rewards behind them, each type of content has its own rewards, why raids specifically should be different than any other type of content?

Yes, why they should be different than 99% of the remaining content? Or, by saying that, are you advocating downgrading the exclusiveness of raid rewards, maybe?

“Fun and entertainment” is not enough to keep people playing the same content in the same game for years.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, any content does need rewards in order for players to draw full enjoyment from it (because we do like being rewarded), but those rewards do not need to be content exclusive.

Raids have Legendary Armour, Fractals have a unique Legendary Backpiece, PvP has a unique Legendary Backpiece. There are unique Legendary Rewards for all the high end content – harder content gives better rewards.

Unique rewards for certain content have been in the game since launch, I don’t know why you can’t get passed that.

Btw you can just hire people to run you through the Raid if you want the skin but cannot manage to find people who want to group with you unless paid.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, any content does need rewards in order for players to draw full enjoyment from it (because we do like being rewarded), but those rewards do not need to be content exclusive.

Raids have Legendary Armour, Fractals have a unique Legendary Backpiece, PvP has a unique Legendary Backpiece. There are unique Legendary Rewards for all the high end content – harder content gives better rewards.

Both the fractal and spvp backpieces can be obtained by playing the mode on “easy” setting. It just takes longer.
So, would you be okay with raids having as rewards not legendary armor, but just a legendary backpiece, and one that could be grinded for by consistently failing (or running the first encounter in some toned down mode made for casuals)? Because that would be equality.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, any content does need rewards in order for players to draw full enjoyment from it (because we do like being rewarded), but those rewards do not need to be content exclusive.

Raids have Legendary Armour, Fractals have a unique Legendary Backpiece, PvP has a unique Legendary Backpiece. There are unique Legendary Rewards for all the high end content – harder content gives better rewards.

Both the fractal and spvp backpieces can be obtained by playing the mode on “easy” setting. It just takes longer.
So, would you be okay with raids having as rewards not legendary armor, but just a legendary backpiece, and one that could be grinded for by consistently failing (or running the first encounter in some toned down mode made for casuals)? Because that would be equality.

There are clear challenge motes that require skill to complete for the FOTM backpiece – and we only have the precursor so far – if anything – to craft the full thing higher-level challenge motes will be required – and they do take skill.

Also Raids do have rewards for failing – magnetite shards. Fail enough and you can still buy some of the rewards – just not all of them – just not the final one.

Astralporing.1957:

Because that would be equality.

Equality of opportunity you have, this does not require equality of outcome. People lose games, you just need to try harder not to be in that set.

Also PvP backpiece does require you to win more than you lose, if you have a 0% win rating there is no “easy” path to get the backpiece. What division did you reach this season?

We have the only worthy equality already, requesting that merit is removed from the game is really tragic.

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, any content does need rewards in order for players to draw full enjoyment from it (because we do like being rewarded), but those rewards do not need to be content exclusive.

Raids have Legendary Armour, Fractals have a unique Legendary Backpiece, PvP has a unique Legendary Backpiece. There are unique Legendary Rewards for all the high end content – harder content gives better rewards.

Both the fractal and spvp backpieces can be obtained by playing the mode on “easy” setting. It just takes longer.
So, would you be okay with raids having as rewards not legendary armor, but just a legendary backpiece, and one that could be grinded for by consistently failing (or running the first encounter in some toned down mode made for casuals)? Because that would be equality.

There are clear challenge motes that require skill to complete for the FOTM backpiece – and we only have the precursor so far – if anything – to craft the full thing higher-level challenge motes will be required – and they do take skill.

Also Raids do have rewards for failing – magnetite shards. Fail enough and you can still buy some of the rewards – just not all of them – just not the final one.

Yes you can get magnetite shards from failing raids but you cannot buy anything unless you beat the boss.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Sird.4536:

So what is the point of raids if people can just do a collection outside of one?

…good question. Are you trying to imply that the primary point of raids is to gate rewards behind them? Because if so, why we even have them in this game?

You got it backwards. What’s the point of having any kind of content in the game?

Fun and entertainment.

maddoctor.2738:

What’s the point of adding new content in the game if you can get the rewards from it playing the old content?

Fun, as above. Remember, adding dungeon tracks to PvP didn’t invalidate the point of having dungeons in the slightest. Being able to buy ascended rings for laurels did not diminish Fractals.
Yes, any content does need rewards in order for players to draw full enjoyment from it (because we do like being rewarded), but those rewards do not need to be content exclusive.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s not gating rewards behind them, each type of content has its own rewards, why raids specifically should be different than any other type of content?

Yes, why they should be different than 99% of the remaining content? Or, by saying that, are you advocating downgrading the exclusiveness of raid rewards, maybe?

Fun and entertainment is not something that will keep you interested for years alone. It’s good for single player games but not for MMORPGs that are built to last.

You don’t know about PVP tracks, but let me tell you that dungeon armor skins were available in PVP at the release of GW2 with the PVP currency called Glory. They also required a high enough rank to craft them using the PVP recipes. The addition of PVP tracks was done so PVPers could still get the same skins they used to get as rewards before the removal of glory. Also PVP is a different game mode than PVE, that used to be completely separate, of course PVP-centric players needed a way to access those dungeon skins, they’d probably need to add Legendary armor in PVP too, who knows maybe they’ll add the gloves in a PVP track, after all you can get the gloves of loads of different PVE sets from pvp tracks (carapace, bladed, leystone etc)

I didn’t know you can get Fractal skins and infused rings with Laurels. Oh wait you can’t so Fractals still have their own rewards available. There are still things you can only get in Fractals.

So a guy like me that can only play for about an hour a night at a certain time, HoT is not me then… I had lots of time as a student back couple of years, but didn’t have much money. Even buying GW2 at launch was an investment at the time. Now that I’m a working member of society, my time is very limited, but I have no problem buying HoT financially. Ah the irony.

Asumita.2174:

So a guy like me that can only play for about an hour a night at a certain time, HoT is not me then… I had lots of time as a student back couple of years, but didn’t have much money. Even buying GW2 at launch was an investment at the time. Now that I’m a working member of society, my time is very limited, but I have no problem buying HoT financially. Ah the irony.

You can do anything everyone else does just in 1hr chunks; if you want certain meta events for example look up the timers on dulfy and come on for an hour at the appropriate time, if you want the Raid bosses do one at a time or pay for a guild to boost you through them, Fractals and story missions can be done comfortably inside an hour.

If you have restrictions on your time you just need to do a bit of planning around your schedule (as with everything else you do in your time poor life).

Coulter.2315:

Asumita.2174:

So a guy like me that can only play for about an hour a night at a certain time, HoT is not me then… I had lots of time as a student back couple of years, but didn’t have much money. Even buying GW2 at launch was an investment at the time. Now that I’m a working member of society, my time is very limited, but I have no problem buying HoT financially. Ah the irony.

You can do anything everyone else does just in 1hr chunks; if you want certain meta events for example look up the timers on dulfy and come on for an hour at the appropriate time, if you want the Raid bosses do one at a time or pay for a guild to boost you through them, Fractals and story missions can be done comfortably inside an hour.

If you have restrictions on your time you just need to do a bit of planning around your schedule (as with everything else you do in your time poor life).

indeed, u need to learn to adjust your time and schedule and create a plan to have fun playing gw2, u can’t expect to just login and have fun

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

That’s your answer? Just because some people have crappy ping or a bad computer or whatever else, they need to make all the rewards available to those? So they should put everything as a possible drop from moa in Queensdale? I mean that’s something absolutely everyone can do. Nice logic.

No we should all leave the game. That’s what we should. Leave 5% of you raiders left in the game, so that you can be happy. Until there is no more game because I don’t believe there are enough of you to support an entire development team.

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Just as you can lobby for your hard core content that a small percentage of the player base will ever finish, I can lobby for rewards from that content to be available to me, if I really won’t enjoy that content. The precedent is there, making dungeon rewards available to SPvP players, so why not?

I’d rather do a PvP reward track than raid. Or even play WvW to get it. I don’t love the idea of raids, and if I feel like I can’t get what I want in the game without doing something time consuming that I can’t stand, I will in fact, feel disenfranchised.

Maybe you personally don’t care that players feel this way but Anet should.

Sure – go ahead if that’s what you want to do – I guarantee you though that only a small portion of your “mad because raids have exclusive content” will actually leave and abandon their investment in the game.
Most players will stay and suck it up – and that’s exactly what Anet knows as well.

If they genuinely believed that adding harder content and Raids would cause too many players to leave and destroy the game (their business and source of income) they wouldn’t have made this move.

HoT is a calculated business strategy – they know what they’re doing.
Are some people mad? yes. Are some people going to leave? yes.
Is that number so high that it will affect the game? no – otherwise HoT’s hard content and Raids wouldn’t exist.
If anything I suspect that more people came to GW2 post-HoT than left.

Like I said before – PvP dungeon precedent is fine – but just as dungeons were easy when PvP alternatives were introduced – the PvP alternative for Raids should be extremely hard.

I also agree for a super easy casual way to get this content – but at an incredibly slow rate – let’s say daily log-ins for the next 5 years should get you legendary armor.

If you believe that ANet know what they are doing you are one of the few players who do. A lot are really upset/angry or just plain kittened off about how HoT changed things out side of the HoT zones. Look at the laughing stock that is the PvP league and how bad the match making is.

Raids are a wast of time for a lot of players, as I’m sure there are those who see it as the best thing to happen to the game. But at the same time ANet is expending development time to them, that many people would rather see used on content that everyone can access easily and have a good chance of completing. ANet has boasted that something like 5% of the player base will be able to finish the raids. Now ask your self this. If this rings true, then after awhile the number of people trying to do raids will dwindled, then it will fall in the not successful category like dungeons.

As for people not leaving the game, it would seem plenty have, and many more have said they have cut right back on there spending or stopped buying gems all together, I know I have. I’ve spent the grand total of £10 since HoT launched. I don’t plan on spending anymore anytime soon. I’m not happy with the direction the game is heading, but I still enjoy it for the most part. But I’ll show my dissatisfaction with my wallet.

Jaxom.7310:

Coulter.2315:

Asumita.2174:

So a guy like me that can only play for about an hour a night at a certain time, HoT is not me then… I had lots of time as a student back couple of years, but didn’t have much money. Even buying GW2 at launch was an investment at the time. Now that I’m a working member of society, my time is very limited, but I have no problem buying HoT financially. Ah the irony.

You can do anything everyone else does just in 1hr chunks; if you want certain meta events for example look up the timers on dulfy and come on for an hour at the appropriate time, if you want the Raid bosses do one at a time or pay for a guild to boost you through them, Fractals and story missions can be done comfortably inside an hour.

If you have restrictions on your time you just need to do a bit of planning around your schedule (as with everything else you do in your time poor life).

indeed, u need to learn to adjust your time and schedule and create a plan to have fun playing gw2, u can’t expect to just login and have fun

I clearly said if you want CERTAIN things then you (if you’re time poor) need to adjust.. This was the case before HoT with specific world bosses or any guild events. I don’t know why you’re acting like its strange that a persistant game world with lots to do cannot offer everything at once to people with only 1hr of time available at a random point in the day.

You can find fun whenever you log in, just if you want something specific you’ll need to pick your moment. You’re being dramatic with an empty point.

Coulter.2315:

I clearly said if you want CERTAIN things then you (if you’re time poor) need to adjust..

No you didn’t – You clearly said…

Coulter.2315:

You can do anything everyone else does just in 1hr chunks;

We might be able to “find” fun – With the current direction some of us just chose to log directly into fun elsewhere. As, in a game where we don’t need a strategy to find it.
Someone mentioned “investment”… I loved/felt very attached to Guild Wars (Anet v.1). That’s the reason I bought GW2 in the first place.

GW2 (Anet v.2) never really felt as good as the original and there were definitely warning signs posted: Putting the “Wicked witch of Nexonia” in charge of monetization, The surprise-pop “ascended stats” and the seemingly total disregard of WvW.

HoT is not all bad and some people seem to really enjoy it. Thats perfectly fine and I have no regrets buying it, but personally, with the current: “Locked behind whatever stats/features” and the “grind till you drop” direction of this game I simply went off to try other games.
That’s how far my “investment” in this game reached, with the mentioned warning signs + strike3 above.

And yes, I found one that (so far) suits me perfectly, even have guilds of GW-rejects

No: You can’t have my stuff. Who knows, the direction of this or my new game may change and I may feel nostalgic.

Halandir.3609:

Coulter.2315:

I clearly said if you want CERTAIN things then you (if you’re time poor) need to adjust..

No you didn’t – You clearly said…

Coulter.2315:

You can do anything everyone else does just in 1hr chunks;

Quote the rest of my comment then try again.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

I’d like to see a way for me to be on even footing. It’s not Anet’s fault I live in Australia. But Anet is selling the game Internationally. They are certainly willing to take money from Australians. So if there’s a reward that’s significantly harder for me to get, I’d like an alternate way to access it.

That’s your answer? Just because some people have crappy ping or a bad computer or whatever else, they need to make all the rewards available to those? So they should put everything as a possible drop from moa in Queensdale? I mean that’s something absolutely everyone can do. Nice logic.

No we should all leave the game. That’s what we should. Leave 5% of you raiders left in the game, so that you can be happy. Until there is no more game because I don’t believe there are enough of you to support an entire development team.

My answer is an alternate path for content that, by Anet’s own admission, most people aren’t going to finish. And if that’s the case, they’re taking developer resources, which are spread thin already, to add something to the game of no value whatsoever, to people who play like me.

Just as you can lobby for your hard core content that a small percentage of the player base will ever finish, I can lobby for rewards from that content to be available to me, if I really won’t enjoy that content. The precedent is there, making dungeon rewards available to SPvP players, so why not?

I’d rather do a PvP reward track than raid. Or even play WvW to get it. I don’t love the idea of raids, and if I feel like I can’t get what I want in the game without doing something time consuming that I can’t stand, I will in fact, feel disenfranchised.

Maybe you personally don’t care that players feel this way but Anet should.

Sure – go ahead if that’s what you want to do – I guarantee you though that only a small portion of your “mad because raids have exclusive content” will actually leave and abandon their investment in the game.
Most players will stay and suck it up – and that’s exactly what Anet knows as well.

If they genuinely believed that adding harder content and Raids would cause too many players to leave and destroy the game (their business and source of income) they wouldn’t have made this move.

HoT is a calculated business strategy – they know what they’re doing.
Are some people mad? yes. Are some people going to leave? yes.
Is that number so high that it will affect the game? no – otherwise HoT’s hard content and Raids wouldn’t exist.
If anything I suspect that more people came to GW2 post-HoT than left.

Like I said before – PvP dungeon precedent is fine – but just as dungeons were easy when PvP alternatives were introduced – the PvP alternative for Raids should be extremely hard.

I also agree for a super easy casual way to get this content – but at an incredibly slow rate – let’s say daily log-ins for the next 5 years should get you legendary armor.

If you believe that ANet know what they are doing you are one of the few players who do. A lot are really upset/angry or just plain kittened off about how HoT changed things out side of the HoT zones. Look at the laughing stock that is the PvP league and how bad the match making is.

Raids are a wast of time for a lot of players, as I’m sure there are those who see it as the best thing to happen to the game. But at the same time ANet is expending development time to them, that many people would rather see used on content that everyone can access easily and have a good chance of completing. ANet has boasted that something like 5% of the player base will be able to finish the raids. Now ask your self this. If this rings true, then after awhile the number of people trying to do raids will dwindled, then it will fall in the not successful category like dungeons.

As for people not leaving the game, it would seem plenty have, and many more have said they have cut right back on there spending or stopped buying gems all together, I know I have. I’ve spent the grand total of £10 since HoT launched. I don’t plan on spending anymore anytime soon. I’m not happy with the direction the game is heading, but I still enjoy it for the most part. But I’ll show my dissatisfaction with my wallet.

I don’t believe Anet know what they’re doing all of the time – but I do believe the people who manage them financially do.
I believe every move they’ve made with this game so far has earned them more money than before. And even if it didn’t I believe there was a good enough chance that it would have making it worth it for them to try.

I dislike some of their choices and feel “they have no clue” – and in some situations they don’t – but to me they appear incredibly effective at monetizing people.

When comparing dungeons with raids you’re really off – dungeons were successful – everyone was able to do them and a lot of people did.

Dungeons only got dropped because the rewards got nerfed – but dungeons were never unsuccessful. A lot of dungeons were run during GW2’s lifetime.

Also – with legendary armor at the end of Raids I’m pretty sure Raids will be a thing for a lot of players.
I don’t doubt they’ll get nerfed at some point in the future – possibly once wing 2 comes out wing 1 will be “toned down” or something along those lines – and while I’d hate for that to happen I’m pretty sure it will regardless.

As far as people leaving the game – you’re right – “it would seem” – because we don’t have numbers so we can only guess.
It’s a fact that a disgruntled player who leaves will be more likely to come to the forum and complain than a player who just came to the game will be to come to the forum and say he started playing.

I get that you’re dissatisfied – but others are dropping money on the game right now – so I’m not sure how it all balances out. But I have a feeling they’re on the plus side of things.

So I’m going to hit a few points with this novel!

It’s sad really, that most so called “Casuals”, only care about getting what they want while stripping any value from what the “hardcore” (HC)players want claiming that HC players want to lord over casuals, when most just pride themselves on completing challenging content, and being rewarded appropriately, harder content should always provide better rewards than easier content.

HC players never want to devalue Casual content or take away their content or rewards. If you want Legendaries then request a unique skin for content aimed at your player base that would probably not make any HC players angry(most couldn’t care less about it), just because you don’t like a form of content doesn’t mean that it is aimed only at HC players or is inaccessible to you. Casual friendly Legendaries should take longer to acquire than the HC equivalents since HC spend more time and effort to acquire them in a faster period.

Hell I get to play 1hr maybe 2 every other night (some of the people on this thread will call me HC), yet I am able to raid and do most of the events that I like in that time frame I prioritize what I want to do in that short period, I was able to find a guild that raids at times when I am on, so I join them. So far they have not completed the raid yet we don’t get mad or kick anyone, we help each other figure out what’s wrong and fix it the last attempt we did we got VG to 1% HP with 50secs left on the timer and we were not in a meta/optimized group ( if I want to I play on my Thief and no one bats an eye).

Bear in mind ‘hardcore’ and ‘casual’ are artificial labels used by people in forums to generalise and blame. In reality GW2 is extremely friendly to players who play casually, e.g whenever they want and not on regular long scheduled events. Guild wars 2 has 1 thing that is highly tuned to a specific group size and that’s raids. There is 1 raid amongst 3 years of content which is for players who want to play this style of content, and it would be fair to say there is space for more as long a Anet continue to produce other content – which they have made perfectly clear that they will.

If you find yourself being mean spirited about other players simply because they do something you don’t do, its time to look in the mirror.

i think the problem is the social engineering aspect of it, – or rather, casual vs hardcore.

the open world events are more casual, because u are in an area, a big beast popped on, you throw up a tag…or look for one on the map, bang…instant fight – everyone gets along because they are either too busy trying to stay alive or saying thank you for the res.

Those small teams, and even the guild hall that’s demanding of a group, is stressful for a casual player – I wish i had more friends offline that played, but i simply don’t – many guilds i’ve joined, were great for a month or 3, then just died….other new guilds i joined were trying to tell me how and when to play….that wasn’t fun…..so when I have a moment, I casually pug the big fights …and it’s a blast.

If there are simply more small team areas that you need to organize, plan, run a fixed build …blah blah….That IS hardcore. It doesn’t necessarily have to be ocd gaming, just very organized ….. to some of us it’s just a game, and all the excessive planning, organizing technical teams, 3 hour adventures with precision accuracy, is not something we are interested – some of us just want to log on for an hour and fight a bf monster and call it a day.

the more organized anet expects us to be as small organized strategic teams, the less casual it will be.

Ricky the organized portion is a small part of the game as a whole there is only a few parts that require, High level fractals and raids while all the rest can be had almost anytime in open world with zergs, and however you like, yes some stuff is tied to timers but that is how a lot of the world bosses were to begin with.

Yes Anet needs to cater to both groups, to do so effectively they should have a team dedicated to raids and another to open world instead of having the same people do both. Just like Anet needs to better cater to both Pve /pvp.

Ricky.4706:

i think the problem is the social engineering aspect of it, – or rather, casual vs hardcore.

the open world events are more casual, because u are in an area, a big beast popped on, you throw up a tag…or look for one on the map, bang…instant fight – everyone gets along because they are either too busy trying to stay alive or saying thank you for the res.

Those small teams, and even the guild hall that’s demanding of a group, is stressful for a casual player – I wish i had more friends offline that played, but i simply don’t – many guilds i’ve joined, were great for a month or 3, then just died….other new guilds i joined were trying to tell me how and when to play….that wasn’t fun…..so when I have a moment, I casually pug the big fights …and it’s a blast.

If there are simply more small team areas that you need to organize, plan, run a fixed build …blah blah….That IS hardcore. It doesn’t necessarily have to be ocd gaming, just very organized ….. to some of us it’s just a game, and all the excessive planning, organizing technical teams, 3 hour adventures with precision accuracy, is not something we are interested – some of us just want to log on for an hour and fight a bf monster and call it a day.

the more organized anet expects us to be as small organized strategic teams, the less casual it will be.

You’ve described your idea of casual and you then describe what content you like (world bosses), those things are available to you, where is the problem?

I’m not sure where your “social engineering” bit comes in.

The game is too casual friendly, even raids. It is hard to find anything challenging in PvE unless you handicap yourself (eg solo group content)