Guild Wars 2

As much as there are some conflicting views, we are agreeing on points, especially that stat changing legendary armour being locked behind raids is a terrible idea. Though, an exclusive to raids skinned version is not.

With 10000 views and 350 replies, I really hope Anet take time to read through this thread. The lack of interaction is getting awful.

You would think with one of PC gamers writers picking HoT as his pick of the year, then 99% of the comments slating it, we would get some response.

Torolan.5816:

I don´t use the builds people appreciate because I am not a lemming and don´t jump through hoops when the majority does. If I want to use the runes of the sunless for example, I´ll do it and don´t ask anyone´s permission. When pew pew rangers got more popular again, I stayed with my Wolf and Shortbow condition ranger. Why? Cause I can. I can only speak for myself here, but I don´t like min maxing in a game where I am looking for fun. If I want to be efficient, I go to work. If I want my character to work for me, I look for things I like and use them, not for things a youtube math geek gamer finds apropriate for my class.

So people like to play it safe, how disgusting. Let´s instantly call for a prison sentence for them?

Okay, thinking about that:
So that 30+ Zerk people that rallied to build the melee troop with their identical to my damage output(Tequatl structure) and died with every wave knew better and were better prepared than me and were the reason Tequatl succeeded instead of the people who fired guns or killed fingers so that neither melee or distance damage groups perished under a frontload of conditions? Or those people that defended but did not stomp?
Ok.

Luckily for the both of us, we´re not forced to play together. You would maybe be surprised that I can hold myself pretty well in the open world and can also live with losses or needing 7 seconds for an orr mob to beat instead of 5.

So now you call lemmings those who use appropriate builds and skills for encounters. I don’t know what you are saying now anymore, you are like that Guardian running the Uncategorized Fractal (Harpy) that refused to use Wall of Reflection because “that’s not my build”, you are like that Elementalist dropping Healing Rain on the Evolved Jungle Wurm overwriting the fire fields because “I wanted some health”.

You don’t like min-maxing? Fine. But ruining other people’s enjoyment of the game for your own pathetic reasons is just selfish, you are being a selfish entintled person and if raids or anything like that makes people like you quit the game (or eliminated as said earlier) it will be much MUCH better game for everyone else.

Next time you go to a big event, or you brainstorm your build or which skills to use, try to think about the others for a change and be a team player in multiplayer online game. Don’t be a selfish idiot.

The only un casual friendly thing about HoT are the map meta events. If your play time falls out side of when a map starts, you are out of luck to do that map meta, add to that the fact you need to go to an outside site to find out when they start is a joke.

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

I don´t use the builds people appreciate because I am not a lemming and don´t jump through hoops when the majority does. If I want to use the runes of the sunless for example, I´ll do it and don´t ask anyone´s permission. When pew pew rangers got more popular again, I stayed with my Wolf and Shortbow condition ranger. Why? Cause I can. I can only speak for myself here, but I don´t like min maxing in a game where I am looking for fun. If I want to be efficient, I go to work. If I want my character to work for me, I look for things I like and use them, not for things a youtube math geek gamer finds apropriate for my class.

So people like to play it safe, how disgusting. Let´s instantly call for a prison sentence for them?

Okay, thinking about that:
So that 30+ Zerk people that rallied to build the melee troop with their identical to my damage output(Tequatl structure) and died with every wave knew better and were better prepared than me and were the reason Tequatl succeeded instead of the people who fired guns or killed fingers so that neither melee or distance damage groups perished under a frontload of conditions? Or those people that defended but did not stomp?
Ok.

Luckily for the both of us, we´re not forced to play together. You would maybe be surprised that I can hold myself pretty well in the open world and can also live with losses or needing 7 seconds for an orr mob to beat instead of 5.

So now you call lemmings those who use appropriate builds and skills for encounters. I don’t know what you are saying now anymore, you are like that Guardian running the Uncategorized Fractal (Harpy) that refused to use Wall of Reflection because “that’s not my build”, you are like that Elementalist dropping Healing Rain on the Evolved Jungle Wurm overwriting the fire fields because “I wanted some health”.

You don’t like min-maxing? Fine. But ruining other people’s enjoyment of the game for your own pathetic reasons is just selfish, you are being a selfish entintled person and if raids or anything like that makes people like you quit the game (or eliminated as said earlier) it will be much MUCH better game for everyone else.

Next time you go to a big event, or you brainstorm your build or which skills to use, try to think about the others for a change and be a team player in multiplayer online game. Don’t be a selfish idiot.

No. I call those lemings who play something because the majority does so or because it does 2% more damage instead of playing the game with equipment they find funny or good.

I change my skills for encounters like the harpy fractal. If someone calls out a firefield, I don´t overwrite it. What are you talking about? I can and do play well with others. What I wanted to say is that I don´t change my equipment because people think it is not fitting to have vitality or toughness. My ranger runs Carrion because I like it, not Sinister because its chic to do it.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding here between Equipment and Skills?

Torolan.5816:

No. I call those lemings who play something because the majority does so or because it does 2% more damage instead of playing the game with equipment they find funny or good.

I change my skills for encounters like the harpy fractal. If someone calls out a firefield, I don´t overwrite it. What are you talking about? I can and do play well with others. What I wanted to say is that I don´t change my equipment because people think it is not fitting to have vitality or toughness. My ranger runs Carrion because I like it, not Sinister because its chic to do it.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding here between Equipment and Skills?

Those “meta” builds that the lemmings follow are not only their gear stats, it’s also their skills and traits, it’s everything.
Congratulations if you don’t overwrite fire fields or that you change your skills based on the situation, sadly that’s not what a lot of players are doing and that was the entire point. If everyone did what they should, the Wyverns would never fly and the breakbar of the Gerent would never break but we both know that we are not in that perfect universe and not everyone is coming prepared for the encounters.

Even when it costs them literally nothing to respec and there is billions of comments on map chat about it. They just don’t bother because maybe they find their build funny, or they simply copy-pasted it and don’t know what half of their traits/skills do. Both of which are actual problems but it is evident on this thread and many other similar ones that these people don’t want to bother to understand the encounters, it’s “too much work”.

That was the whole point that I made at first, that these people want to be carried. And apparently encounters that you cannot be carried are “hardcore”, anti-casual and bad for the game.

Coulter.2315:

These people wanting the auto group for “casual” play are insane – using LFG you can ask for casual friendly or everyone is welcome but with an automated system you will bve expected to run a meta build and people will shout at you for phiwing.

You have the best tools to create casual friendly groups, automated grouping is not casual friendly.

I completely agree, random grouping is going to, by definition, yield random results.

Torolan.5816:

A little bit off topic, but in my mind anyone who refuses to revive a fallen player if there is no event areound where the dead upscale is scum in this question, plain and simple. It is not that it costs you something, and it saves the poor guy or girl lying there a few silvers.

And yes, low level fractals were always casual. Everyone can do a for example lvl 1 fractal if only one person in his group has ever done it and knows how it works.

Ok – I agree with you that ressing people is a good idea but calling anyone scum is honestly a very upsetting point of view.

Not everyone is paying attention at everything 100% of the time, people are sometimes in a rush – going ahead and making claims like “whoever doesn’t do X is scum” regardless of whether that thing is or isn’t a decent thing to do is honestly absurd.

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

I don´t use the builds people appreciate because I am not a lemming and don´t jump through hoops when the majority does. If I want to use the runes of the sunless for example, I´ll do it and don´t ask anyone´s permission. When pew pew rangers got more popular again, I stayed with my Wolf and Shortbow condition ranger. Why? Cause I can. I can only speak for myself here, but I don´t like min maxing in a game where I am looking for fun. If I want to be efficient, I go to work. If I want my character to work for me, I look for things I like and use them, not for things a youtube math geek gamer finds apropriate for my class.

So people like to play it safe, how disgusting. Let´s instantly call for a prison sentence for them?

Okay, thinking about that:
So that 30+ Zerk people that rallied to build the melee troop with their identical to my damage output(Tequatl structure) and died with every wave knew better and were better prepared than me and were the reason Tequatl succeeded instead of the people who fired guns or killed fingers so that neither melee or distance damage groups perished under a frontload of conditions? Or those people that defended but did not stomp?
Ok.

Luckily for the both of us, we´re not forced to play together. You would maybe be surprised that I can hold myself pretty well in the open world and can also live with losses or needing 7 seconds for an orr mob to beat instead of 5.

So now you call lemmings those who use appropriate builds and skills for encounters. I don’t know what you are saying now anymore, you are like that Guardian running the Uncategorized Fractal (Harpy) that refused to use Wall of Reflection because “that’s not my build”, you are like that Elementalist dropping Healing Rain on the Evolved Jungle Wurm overwriting the fire fields because “I wanted some health”.

You don’t like min-maxing? Fine. But ruining other people’s enjoyment of the game for your own pathetic reasons is just selfish, you are being a selfish entintled person and if raids or anything like that makes people like you quit the game (or eliminated as said earlier) it will be much MUCH better game for everyone else.

Next time you go to a big event, or you brainstorm your build or which skills to use, try to think about the others for a change and be a team player in multiplayer online game. Don’t be a selfish idiot.

No. I call those lemings who play something because the majority does so or because it does 2% more damage instead of playing the game with equipment they find funny or good.

I change my skills for encounters like the harpy fractal. If someone calls out a firefield, I don´t overwrite it. What are you talking about? I can and do play well with others. What I wanted to say is that I don´t change my equipment because people think it is not fitting to have vitality or toughness. My ranger runs Carrion because I like it, not Sinister because its chic to do it.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding here between Equipment and Skills?

What about those who enjoy and find fun actually succeeding at the game. Are they lemmings too?

You’re free to do you own thing – but everyone ( just like you) has a right to play the way they want to – if they want to min/max that doesn’t mean you get to have a free stab at them just because you prefer your own yolo swag builds.

PHIW players demand respect but always amaze me with how fast they think up ways to name call those who adhere to the meta.

I personally have nothing against PHIW players – I simply want nothing to do with them.

Also Mad is talking about the same thing you are – only on a different scale.
Some people dislike switching weapons, gear and traits around but will willingly switch utility skills – others – more diehard PHIWs will refuse to switch even their utility skills.

In a way you’re in the same area – but not as far off on that spectrum as those people.
Refusing to switch traits from a less optimal to a more optimal set-up because it’s not something you like is similar in concept but not in the same scope range as refusing to switch utilities.

There are two extremes: run what I want and not switch anything ever and run whatever we need even if it means switching everything including classes.

Every GW2 player falls in between those two. Just because you’re more cooperative than some doesn’t mean you’ve hit your peak – nor that you’re the ideal teammate.

Coulter.2315:

These people wanting the auto group for “casual” play are insane – using LFG you can ask for casual friendly or everyone is welcome but with an automated system you will bve expected to run a meta build and people will shout at you for phiwing.

You have the best tools to create casual friendly groups, automated grouping is not casual friendly.

Sorry, ad hominems will get you zero response from me.

GreyWolf.8670:

Coulter.2315:

These people wanting the auto group for “casual” play are insane – using LFG you can ask for casual friendly or everyone is welcome but with an automated system you will bve expected to run a meta build and people will shout at you for phiwing.

You have the best tools to create casual friendly groups, automated grouping is not casual friendly.

Sorry, ad hominems will get you zero response from me.

He could leave out the ‘insane’ comment for something nicer but the point stands, automated LFG would actually encourage more outcry against non-meta play than now. Everyone would take the path of least resistance to form a group, and expect the absolute best from their party members…which leads to a toxic environment on a level GW2 hasn’t seen yet. SPvP would have some serious competition in that department…

Torolan.5816:

I don´t use the builds people appreciate because I am not a lemming and don´t jump through hoops when the majority does. If I want to use the runes of the sunless for example, I´ll do it and don´t ask anyone´s permission. When pew pew rangers got more popular again, I stayed with my Wolf and Shortbow condition ranger. Why? Cause I can. I can only speak for myself here, but I don´t like min maxing in a game where I am looking for fun. If I want to be efficient, I go to work. If I want my character to work for me, I look for things I like and use them, not for things a youtube math geek gamer finds apropriate for my class.

So people like to play it safe, how disgusting. Let´s instantly call for a prison sentence for them?

Okay, thinking about that:
So that 30+ Zerk people that rallied to build the melee troop with their identical to my damage output(Tequatl structure) and died with every wave knew better and were better prepared than me and were the reason Tequatl succeeded instead of the people who fired guns or killed fingers so that neither melee or distance damage groups perished under a frontload of conditions? Or those people that defended but did not stomp?
Ok.

Luckily for the both of us, we´re not forced to play together. You would maybe be surprised that I can hold myself pretty well in the open world and can also live with losses or needing 7 seconds for an orr mob to beat instead of 5.

So much this. I had to be efficient for so many years, I don’t need to do it on my down time. I play things I enjoy playing. Sometimes I get characters who like certain things. One of my rangers refuses to use a long bow. It’s just them. Short bow, no problem.

This is how most of my guild plays.

@Harper
I wrote scum in this question, not scum in general. I also missed to ress some people when I did not pay attention to the mini map. People who don´t rezz to make a point if they are not in events are people I call rude if the word scum is too harsh.

And no, people who want to succeed are not lemmings. I don´t really get the mindset of people who strive to be the best in what they do in the context of GW2, but to each his own I guess.
I´ll give you some examples of lemmings from the berserk is king meta era:
One lemming is a person that has not the reflexes to play an elementalist zerker. Still her armor was fully zerk and she had not enough HP to withstand a serious blast, so we had to scratch her from the floor more often than not. I like that person very much and even she agrees with me that it was a bad choice for her and she took it because she was advised to do it.
Another lemming I know had the reflexes to play a zerker axe warrior due to being pretty young. She had no idea what her class was able too and was coaxed from her uncle into playing zerker from the get go because he is a seasoned GW2 veteran. Countless wipes later, she finally figured how the problem was and replaced some of her gear with other stuff that accomodated better to her game.
And the third lemming I know is a young man that jumps on every hype train that comes into town.

I know that I have not hit any peak in GW2, I never wanted too. I am also not the ideal teammate in regard to damage output, but I can keep my mouth shut if someone is not that good or if we wipe, I don´t ragequit instantly. I am also not mad if we need some attempts and not succeed instantly. I could not care less if a minmaxed characters thinks that my build and approach to the game is garbage. Even if he thinks that is is my fault as a filthy pug, I expect him to shut up about it if he joins my casual groups. I don´t come into his group and lecture them either on this or that, that is the minimum of respect I expect from players of the opposite spectrum as you called it.

You´ll also probably just find me in raids when friends need a hand and ask me to play a role for this attempt to make the boss. A casual attempt with impatient or grumpy persons is just not worth that in my opinion.

Vayne.8563:

So much this. I had to be efficient for so many years, I don’t need to do it on my down time. I play things I enjoy playing. Sometimes I get characters who like certain things. One of my rangers refuses to use a long bow. It’s just them. Short bow, no problem.

This is how most of my guild plays.

There are 3 different kinds of players:
Player A: this one has knowledge of the encounter, uses the appropriate skills/builds and makes the encounter go much smoother, faster, easier and in general helps everyone around them. They lower the difficulty of the given encounter based on how much they help.
Player B: this one plays what they want. For whatever reasons they don’t use what is the best for every encounter but they still help and contribute enough. This is the “normal” setting.
Player C: this one is just like Player B, only this time their skills and playstyle actively hinder everyone else. Although most of the time they don’t mean it, unless they are trolls, they do make events take longer, be much harder and even fail. In the end, they increase the difficulty of the encounter by a LOT.

Examples of Player A:
Playing an egg-blocker at Triple Trouble can make the whole event really easy. Having enough Guardians to create a “box” of WoRs at Tequatl can allow everyone to go in melee range and burn him in a couple of minutes. The always wanted Fire Fields, Blast Finishers, might stacking etc can make any encounter go faster.

Examples of Player C:
The Ranger Sword is “meta” because it deals high DPS, yet you’d be surprised at how many Rangers use it at events they shouldn’t be, for example the Chak Gerent. Because the Sword has a cripple on the Auto Attack, which means it will eat the Gerent break bar and make the event harder. Similar with Dragonhunter traps when you have the Daze trait, random Chill applications etc
Overwriting Fire Fields is another common “problem”, or not stacking, or using a Condition based Weapon with Berserker gear (or the opposite), I’ve seen my fair share of Warriors using Sword with zerker.

You want to play how you want? Fine. But keep in mind that some times that playstyle might ruin the events for others and even cause failures. Ever thought of that?

Tommyknocker.6089:

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

The entire “get gud” attitude was something I never wanted to see in this game, now it seems that GW2 is no better than any other WOW clone out there.

Amen! Just amen!

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

So much this. I had to be efficient for so many years, I don’t need to do it on my down time. I play things I enjoy playing. Sometimes I get characters who like certain things. One of my rangers refuses to use a long bow. It’s just them. Short bow, no problem.

This is how most of my guild plays.

There are 3 different kinds of players:
Player A: this one has knowledge of the encounter, uses the appropriate skills/builds and makes the encounter go much smoother, faster, easier and in general helps everyone around them. They lower the difficulty of the given encounter based on how much they help.
Player B: this one plays what they want. For whatever reasons they don’t use what is the best for every encounter but they still help and contribute enough. This is the “normal” setting.
Player C: this one is just like Player B, only this time their skills and playstyle actively hinder everyone else. Although most of the time they don’t mean it, unless they are trolls, they do make events take longer, be much harder and even fail. In the end, they increase the difficulty of the encounter by a LOT.

Examples of Player A:
Playing an egg-blocker at Triple Trouble can make the whole event really easy. Having enough Guardians to create a “box” of WoRs at Tequatl can allow everyone to go in melee range and burn him in a couple of minutes. The always wanted Fire Fields, Blast Finishers, might stacking etc can make any encounter go faster.

Examples of Player C:
The Ranger Sword is “meta” because it deals high DPS, yet you’d be surprised at how many Rangers use it at events they shouldn’t be, for example the Chak Gerent. Because the Sword has a cripple on the Auto Attack, which means it will eat the Gerent break bar and make the event harder. Similar with Dragonhunter traps when you have the Daze trait, random Chill applications etc
Overwriting Fire Fields is another common “problem”, or not stacking, or using a Condition based Weapon with Berserker gear (or the opposite), I’ve seen my fair share of Warriors using Sword with zerker.

You want to play how you want? Fine. But keep in mind that some times that playstyle might ruin the events for others and even cause failures. Ever thought of that?

Funnily, I am an A Type player in your scenario because I used to be in the egg block team with triple thread worm.^^

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

So much this. I had to be efficient for so many years, I don’t need to do it on my down time. I play things I enjoy playing. Sometimes I get characters who like certain things. One of my rangers refuses to use a long bow. It’s just them. Short bow, no problem.

This is how most of my guild plays.

There are 3 different kinds of players:
Player A: this one has knowledge of the encounter, uses the appropriate skills/builds and makes the encounter go much smoother, faster, easier and in general helps everyone around them. They lower the difficulty of the given encounter based on how much they help.
Player B: this one plays what they want. For whatever reasons they don’t use what is the best for every encounter but they still help and contribute enough. This is the “normal” setting.
Player C: this one is just like Player B, only this time their skills and playstyle actively hinder everyone else. Although most of the time they don’t mean it, unless they are trolls, they do make events take longer, be much harder and even fail. In the end, they increase the difficulty of the encounter by a LOT.

Examples of Player A:
Playing an egg-blocker at Triple Trouble can make the whole event really easy. Having enough Guardians to create a “box” of WoRs at Tequatl can allow everyone to go in melee range and burn him in a couple of minutes. The always wanted Fire Fields, Blast Finishers, might stacking etc can make any encounter go faster.

Examples of Player C:
The Ranger Sword is “meta” because it deals high DPS, yet you’d be surprised at how many Rangers use it at events they shouldn’t be, for example the Chak Gerent. Because the Sword has a cripple on the Auto Attack, which means it will eat the Gerent break bar and make the event harder. Similar with Dragonhunter traps when you have the Daze trait, random Chill applications etc
Overwriting Fire Fields is another common “problem”, or not stacking, or using a Condition based Weapon with Berserker gear (or the opposite), I’ve seen my fair share of Warriors using Sword with zerker.

You want to play how you want? Fine. But keep in mind that some times that playstyle might ruin the events for others and even cause failures. Ever thought of that?

This is an oversimplification. Most players who want to play how they want also realize when something is completely ineffective. Is a ranger shortbow less useful over all than a ranger lowbow? Most likely.

But it’s still useable. Anyone who can’t do the content will switch things around until the can…which doesn’t mean they want to worry about the most efficient.

People who love efficiency think that’s really helpful. But if people aren’t having fun doing it, they’re certainly not helping me.

There are people who are adaptable and can play anything and have fun. There are people who aren’t as adapatable and can’t. I don’t play an elementalist well and probably never will. If it were meta for a dungeon and I got on it because it was meta I’d be hindering my team, not helping them.

Torolan.5816:

Funnily, I am an A Type player in your scenario because I used to be in the egg block team with triple thread worm.^^

Good for you? Since you can do it, everyone in the game does as well so there is no problem here, move along. I bet you’ve never been at a TT attempt that commanders asked for Egg Blockers, or Chak Gerent’s break bar being removed, or Wyverns flying and not CCed, or <insert random example here>. That doesn’t exactly invalidate the point.

Vayne.8563:

But it’s still useable. Anyone who can’t do the content will switch things around until the can…which doesn’t mean they want to worry about the most efficient.

That’s not always possible though. If a few players are using something completely wrong/unusable, the content might still succeed because of the work of others (getting carried is what it is called) and in that situation they might not even realize it, or they do and don’t care. There is no such thing as “I can’t do content” for an individual player, content might still be completed by the work of others.

I guess that’s why many players don’t like instanced content, because there your build/skills matter way more and you can’t hide behind blobs to succeed. And on the other hand, that’s why many other players like instanced content, because their effort is more rewarded there (and events can’t fail due to trolls or bad players).

Which leads us to the original point. “Casual” = “getting carried”?

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

But it’s still useable. Anyone who can’t do the content will switch things around until the can…which doesn’t mean they want to worry about the most efficient.

That’s not always possible though. If a few players are using something completely wrong/unusable, the content might still succeed because of the work of others (getting carried is what it is called) and in that situation they might not even realize it, or they do and don’t care. There is no such thing as “I can’t do content” for an individual player, content might still be completed by the work of others.

I guess that’s why many players don’t like instanced content, because there your build/skills matter way more and you can’t hide behind blobs to succeed. And on the other hand, that’s why many other players like instanced content, because their effort is more rewarded there (and events can’t fail due to trolls or bad players).

Which leads us to the original point. “Casual” = “getting carried”?

Terrible analogy is terrible. Most casual players end up in situations where they end up having to sink or swim. They’re alone in the world and they come on a champ or a group event with no one around and they learn fast that they can’t or can do certain things. You’re confusing casual with bad. They’re not the same thing.

I’ve been through every dungeon in this game, and some high level fractals as well, at least when the cap was 50. We don’t have problem clearly any of that content in my guild, and we’re all casual.

We don’t do it as fast as speed run groups, but we clear content.

Now there are people in my guild who might be a bit older, or have disabilies or have internet connections that aren’t always good. Or sometimes the net from Australia is just crap and I have to deal with it.

By your logic, I’m just some blight on society because I live in Australia and I get lag and can’t always dodge.

Casual doesn’t mean getting carried, That you think so is pretty disturbing.

Most efficient doesn’t mean the only way to do something. People who think like you are the reason some people don’t want raids in this game at all. It encourages elitist thinking.

Of course there are people that are as useful as a third nostril in a given situation. Almost any encounter in GW2 can be made by pugs if they cooperate with the leader.
Where did I dispute that?

But you are right, I don´t like instanced content like ls2 where everything is a reflex or mechanics test if you want the reward, although I comleted the ls2 in easy mode, aka just for the sake of doing it. I especially hate stuff where you have to never make a mistake or you will fail like with some of the ls2 rewards and invalidate anything you did up to until that point.
I like fractals because you can play them if you understand the mechanic and with most pugs. It has more room for error, which I like not only for me, but also my fellow players.

Don´t know if that makes me especially casual or a wuss.

Vayne.8563:

You’re confusing casual with bad. They’re not the same thing.

There is bad, and then there is intentionally bad. The first one is bad for reasons beyond their power that they can’t fix. The second type can fix their problems easily but don’t want to because of “role playing” reasons or “play how I want”. There is a huge difference between the two of them.

Casual doesn’t mean getting carried, That you think so is pretty disturbing.

When you don’t want to change your build to fill the important spots of a given content, and wait for someone else to do it for you then hide inside the blob, yes you are being carried.

And really if you are doing all content in the game, including high level fractals then I’m willing to bet for a LOT of players that post on this very thread will say that you are NOT a casual by their standards.

Torolan.5816:

@Harper
I wrote scum in this question, not scum in general. I also missed to ress some people when I did not pay attention to the mini map. People who don´t rezz to make a point if they are not in events are people I call rude if the word scum is too harsh.

And no, people who want to succeed are not lemmings. I don´t really get the mindset of people who strive to be the best in what they do in the context of GW2, but to each his own I guess.
I´ll give you some examples of lemmings from the berserk is king meta era:
One lemming is a person that has not the reflexes to play an elementalist zerker. Still her armor was fully zerk and she had not enough HP to withstand a serious blast, so we had to scratch her from the floor more often than not. I like that person very much and even she agrees with me that it was a bad choice for her and she took it because she was advised to do it.
Another lemming I know had the reflexes to play a zerker axe warrior due to being pretty young. She had no idea what her class was able too and was coaxed from her uncle into playing zerker from the get go because he is a seasoned GW2 veteran. Countless wipes later, she finally figured how the problem was and replaced some of her gear with other stuff that accomodated better to her game.
And the third lemming I know is a young man that jumps on every hype train that comes into town.

I know that I have not hit any peak in GW2, I never wanted too. I am also not the ideal teammate in regard to damage output, but I can keep my mouth shut if someone is not that good or if we wipe, I don´t ragequit instantly. I am also not mad if we need some attempts and not succeed instantly. I could not care less if a minmaxed characters thinks that my build and approach to the game is garbage. Even if he thinks that is is my fault as a filthy pug, I expect him to shut up about it if he joins my casual groups. I don´t come into his group and lecture them either on this or that, that is the minimum of respect I expect from players of the opposite spectrum as you called it.

You´ll also probably just find me in raids when friends need a hand and ask me to play a role for this attempt to make the boss. A casual attempt with impatient or grumpy persons is just not worth that in my opinion.

Alright – I get what you’re saying. And I agree with you – to each his own and really PHIWs and hardcores shouldn’t mix much -it’s a recipe for frustration.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

You’re confusing casual with bad. They’re not the same thing.

There is bad, and then there is intentionally bad. The first one is bad for reasons beyond their power that they can’t fix. The second type can fix their problems easily but don’t want to because of “role playing” reasons or “play how I want”. There is a huge difference between the two of them.

Casual doesn’t mean getting carried, That you think so is pretty disturbing.

When you don’t want to change your build to fill the important spots of a given content, and wait for someone else to do it for you then hide inside the blob, yes you are being carried.

And really if you are doing all content in the game, including high level fractals then I’m willing to bet for a LOT of players that post on this very thread will say that you are NOT a casual by their standards.

As already stated, I don’t raid. I don’t even pug. I play dungeons with my guild who ALL play this way. Just about all of us anyway.

Since we’re all doing it, who exactly is doing the carrying?

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

You’re confusing casual with bad. They’re not the same thing.

There is bad, and then there is intentionally bad. The first one is bad for reasons beyond their power that they can’t fix. The second type can fix their problems easily but don’t want to because of “role playing” reasons or “play how I want”. There is a huge difference between the two of them.

Casual doesn’t mean getting carried, That you think so is pretty disturbing.

When you don’t want to change your build to fill the important spots of a given content, and wait for someone else to do it for you then hide inside the blob, yes you are being carried.

And really if you are doing all content in the game, including high level fractals then I’m willing to bet for a LOT of players that post on this very thread will say that you are NOT a casual by their standards.

As already stated, I don’t raid. I don’t even pug. I play dungeons with my guild who ALL play this way. Just about all of us anyway.

Since we’re all doing it, who exactly is doing the carrying?

Nobody, you all agree to play in some way and not care about being efficient or fast or whatever. When you are in your own group and play with similar minded players you might want to CC when it’s “meta” not to, you might want to overwrite fire fields with water fields or use full nomad gear instead of something with more DPS (condi or power). It’s your choice.

But when you are with a group of players that might want to view an event in a different way, either when you pug (if you pug) or when in big open world events, then there is a problem if you hinder the other people’s gameplay by doing things you shouldn’t. And in that mixed situation, yes the “play how I want” are indeed being carried by the others. There is no carrying if you use only one of the groups, it’s when they mix up that it happens.

As Harper said

And I agree with you – to each his own and really PHIWs and hardcores shouldn’t mix much -it’s a recipe for frustration.

But how to achieve this in open world events? Probably you can’t ever do that, and maybe that’s why Anet decided to add raids to the game, so the two don’t mix much but have different content to do.

Btw you should try the raid.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

You’re confusing casual with bad. They’re not the same thing.

There is bad, and then there is intentionally bad. The first one is bad for reasons beyond their power that they can’t fix. The second type can fix their problems easily but don’t want to because of “role playing” reasons or “play how I want”. There is a huge difference between the two of them.

Casual doesn’t mean getting carried, That you think so is pretty disturbing.

When you don’t want to change your build to fill the important spots of a given content, and wait for someone else to do it for you then hide inside the blob, yes you are being carried.

And really if you are doing all content in the game, including high level fractals then I’m willing to bet for a LOT of players that post on this very thread will say that you are NOT a casual by their standards.

As already stated, I don’t raid. I don’t even pug. I play dungeons with my guild who ALL play this way. Just about all of us anyway.

Since we’re all doing it, who exactly is doing the carrying?

Nobody, you all agree to play in some way and not care about being efficient or fast or whatever. When you are in your own group and play with similar minded players you might want to CC when it’s “meta” not to, you might want to overwrite fire fields with water fields or use full nomad gear instead of something with more DPS (condi or power). It’s your choice.

But when you are with a group of players that might want to view an event in a different way, either when you pug (if you pug) or when in big open world events, then there is a problem if you hinder the other people’s gameplay by doing things you shouldn’t. And in that mixed situation, yes the “play how I want” are indeed being carried by the others. There is no carrying if you use only one of the groups, it’s when they mix up that it happens.

As Harper said

And I agree with you – to each his own and really PHIWs and hardcores shouldn’t mix much -it’s a recipe for frustration.

But how to achieve this in open world events? Probably you can’t ever do that, and maybe that’s why Anet decided to add raids to the game, so the two don’t mix much but have different content to do.

Btw you should try the raid.

I’d raid, but I don’t want to be carried, and due to my connection in Australia, it’s going to be very hard for me to be a productive member of the team. I’m at least a half second to a second later than everyone else. I don’t always appear on the screen where I actually am. That makes staying out of circles a hardship and that’s without my color blindness.

I’d simply be a burden to all you pro players. lol

I’m the first to say the one should play what feels right for him and what enjoys, otherwise there’s no point in playing.
BUT if you do and your choice is to be your own way even if sorta contrast with the outside, at least be a decent person and don’t whine if somethings goes wrong and fails.
Part of the game is to know and learn how to beat the game. This is what i find fun.
And like in real life you cannot buy an hotdog and expect it to cool you down like an icecream, you know?

Honestly even the hot maps require just a tiny sense of practicity and gameplay to enjoy it at full the way you want, being casual all the way you want. Being stubborn and refuse to step a toe outside of your confort zone is just bad habit and should never be encouraged. That’s all I have to say

Torolan.5816:

I don´t use the builds people appreciate because I am not a lemming and don´t jump through hoops when the majority does. If I want to use the runes of the sunless for example, I´ll do it and don´t ask anyone´s permission. When pew pew rangers got more popular again, I stayed with my Wolf and Shortbow condition ranger. Why? Cause I can. I can only speak for myself here, but I don´t like min maxing in a game where I am looking for fun. If I want to be efficient, I go to work. If I want my character to work for me, I look for things I like and use them, not for things a youtube math geek gamer finds apropriate for my class.

The problem in your position is basicly arguing against the scientific method. The scientific method is important because not only does it produce good outcomes but also requires research and understand of mechanics too – its our species’ best process for learning and progressing.

You can choose not to apply this awesome system but don’t be surprised if people raise an eyebrow.

I can’t even make myself play in HoT maps anymore. Every kitten thing I try to do in one of them feels like a chore/work. Especially if it’s during a time (Aussie evenings) when there aren’t many people around. It’s way less fun than central Tyria was.

Chalk me up as another customer (yeah I buy gems pretty regularly) that ANet is in danger of losing.

When I want to work and feel like I’ve “earned” something, I can go to work. I play games to have fun.

Why should I apply a scientific standard in my free time? Alternatives are there, and I enjoy them.

If you are such a fan of the scientific method, you surely can explain me why people still starve from hunger despiute distribution being scientifically possible, nuclear power plants still explode despite viable alternatives and solar cars have not replaced the regular car?
I tell you why: Money, power monopoly and convenience.
Add lazyness and nostalgia and you will have a large number or reasons and motiviations why people are content with their subpar stuff.

Torolan.5816:

Why should I apply a scientific standard in my free time? Alternatives are there, and I enjoy them.

If you are such a fan of the scientific method, you surely can explain me why people still starve from hunger despiute distribution being scientifically possible, nuclear power plants still explode despite viable alternatives and solar cars have not replaced the regular car?
I tell you why: Money, power monopoly and convenience.
Add lazyness and nostalgia and you will have a large number or reasons and motiviations why people are content with their subpar stuff.

Yes bad things happen when people don’t apply the method – which side are you arguing again? xD

I am lazy and convenient and want to keep it that way. It´s actually that simple.^^

I did not want to say that following innovation is bad in RL, but we play a game. And this game hasn´t, unlike Monopoly or Chess for example, fixed rules where figurines have only a limited equipment or movement. So why not move around the figure in the way you want when you don´t ruin the fun for others?

Torolan.5816:

I am lazy and convenient and want to keep it that way. It´s actually that simple.^^

I did not want to say that following innovation is bad in RL, but we play a game. And this game hasn´t, unlike Monopoly or Chess for example, fixed rules where figurines have only a limited equipment or movement. So why not move around the figure in the way you want when you don´t ruin the fun for others?

Well I would still say the method is useful to you but its your choice to ignore it. I would however take issue if content or rewards were designed from a place of convenience and laziness. Also you’ve used single player games for your examples (just you can lose if you choose to play for fun – though I would argue its no fun winning chess if the opponent handicaps themselves) so I would say consideration for others is important in GW2 (I take no issue with groups formed with likeminded individuals though, its your collective choice how to play).

It would probably be useful in some instances, I won´t even deny that. But as it is not mandatory, I indeed choose to ignore it.

My fractal toon has enough AR.
My open world toons have exotic armor at least, or ascended most of the time.
I led wvw until it became a chore to play. With a ranger. No complains.
I follow orders and join squads and TS.

If this is not sufficient for you to stand with me in open world, then I can´t help you.^^

Torolan.5816:

It would probably be useful in some instances, I won´t even deny that. But as it is not mandatory, I indeed choose to ignore it.

My fractal toon has enough AR.
My open world toons have exotic armor at least, or ascended most of the time.
I led wvw until it became a chore to play. With a ranger. No complains.
I follow orders and join squads and TS.

If this is not sufficient for you to stand with me in open world, then I can´t help you.^^

Haha no that should be fine (I don’t mind too much what people use in open world – I see it as coming with those risks and don’t get mad when TD meta fails even when I know if people did use more efficient stuff it would succeed), its just this is a popular thread and often attacked Raids and openworld for difficulty, I felt I should present counter arguments. I wouldn’t want too many posts to go unanswered – while you weren’t arguing for easier content your language was picked up by another who was and it made sense to reply.

I have enjoyed working on builds and researchng the first raid wing and hope the trend continues and the open world is actually engaging now.

Vayne.8563:

I’d raid, but I don’t want to be carried, and due to my connection in Australia, it’s going to be very hard for me to be a productive member of the team. I’m at least a half second to a second later than everyone else. I don’t always appear on the screen where I actually am. That makes staying out of circles a hardship and that’s without my color blindness.

I’d simply be a burden to all you pro players. lol

I know a few people who have had their ping spike up to ~500 since a few patches ago, not sure if that’s your case as well, but I’m able to get a stable 250-260 ping from Melbourne, and that’s completely fine to raid with. So if you can get yours to around that, don’t let the connection speed stop you from playing content you might enjoy.

Colour blindness is a completely separate issue, and I do hope anet adds some form of colourblind option, but if you play a dps revenant or something that sticks in melee most of the fight, and just leave green circles to other people, you might be able to find a way around that. But I’m not sure. Hard to tell just how badly it effects play without being colourblind myself.

Cameron.6450:

Vayne.8563:

I’d raid, but I don’t want to be carried, and due to my connection in Australia, it’s going to be very hard for me to be a productive member of the team. I’m at least a half second to a second later than everyone else. I don’t always appear on the screen where I actually am. That makes staying out of circles a hardship and that’s without my color blindness.

I’d simply be a burden to all you pro players. lol

I know a few people who have had their ping spike up to ~500 since a few patches ago, not sure if that’s your case as well, but I’m able to get a stable 250-260 ping from Melbourne, and that’s completely fine to raid with. So if you can get yours to around that, don’t let the connection speed stop you from playing content you might enjoy.

Colour blindness is a completely separate issue, and I do hope anet adds some form of colourblind option, but if you play a dps revenant or something that sticks in melee most of the fight, and just leave green circles to other people, you might be able to find a way around that. But I’m not sure. Hard to tell just how badly it effects play without being colourblind myself.

I would add colourblindness doesn’t really change the raid; VG has different effects for each coloured animation and the splits are aways the same at NW, NE and S, Gorse has nothing colour related and Sabetha has different animations and an extra action button appear for the different bombs. I’m fine with them adding a colourblind mode of course but it really won’t stop you Raiding atm.

Coulter.2315:

Cameron.6450:

Vayne.8563:

I’d raid, but I don’t want to be carried, and due to my connection in Australia, it’s going to be very hard for me to be a productive member of the team. I’m at least a half second to a second later than everyone else. I don’t always appear on the screen where I actually am. That makes staying out of circles a hardship and that’s without my color blindness.

I’d simply be a burden to all you pro players. lol

I know a few people who have had their ping spike up to ~500 since a few patches ago, not sure if that’s your case as well, but I’m able to get a stable 250-260 ping from Melbourne, and that’s completely fine to raid with. So if you can get yours to around that, don’t let the connection speed stop you from playing content you might enjoy.

Colour blindness is a completely separate issue, and I do hope anet adds some form of colourblind option, but if you play a dps revenant or something that sticks in melee most of the fight, and just leave green circles to other people, you might be able to find a way around that. But I’m not sure. Hard to tell just how badly it effects play without being colourblind myself.

I would add colourblindness doesn’t really change the raid; VG has different effects for each coloured animation and the splits are aways the same at NW, NE and S, Gorse has nothing colour related and Sabetha has different animations and an extra action button appear for the different bombs. I’m fine with them adding a colourblind mode of course but it really won’t stop you Raiding atm.

No red circles to stay out of? Because that’s my main issue. When we do guild races, the circles on the ground indicating traps are often invisible to me.

Raiding is not my cup of tea, but it people have fun with it, all the better.
Adventures are tiring and boring for me.
Jumping is also not my favorite stuff, but I got used to it.
I am actually enjoying the mobs of HoT in general. There are actual fights where you have to run for it or perish if an add comes in. That only happens to you in Orr when you are super squishy or super not paying attention.
Gliding is nice. Dropping in a bottomless chasm to be greeted by tendrils is not.
i don´t like to look for things behind walls.

The open world content does not have to be faceroll easy. It should be accessible and achievable on a reasonable level.
I don´t have that feeling with raids(and Anet basically said that too), therefore and for some other reasons I lobby against them having rewards except for titles, massive gold and more ascended stuff dropping. I don´t lobby against the raid itself. I also lobbied against fractals being the only place for ascended backpacks long time ago for the same reason, despite playing them very often.

Vayne.8563:

Coulter.2315:

Cameron.6450:

Vayne.8563:

I’d raid, but I don’t want to be carried, and due to my connection in Australia, it’s going to be very hard for me to be a productive member of the team. I’m at least a half second to a second later than everyone else. I don’t always appear on the screen where I actually am. That makes staying out of circles a hardship and that’s without my color blindness.

I’d simply be a burden to all you pro players. lol

I know a few people who have had their ping spike up to ~500 since a few patches ago, not sure if that’s your case as well, but I’m able to get a stable 250-260 ping from Melbourne, and that’s completely fine to raid with. So if you can get yours to around that, don’t let the connection speed stop you from playing content you might enjoy.

Colour blindness is a completely separate issue, and I do hope anet adds some form of colourblind option, but if you play a dps revenant or something that sticks in melee most of the fight, and just leave green circles to other people, you might be able to find a way around that. But I’m not sure. Hard to tell just how badly it effects play without being colourblind myself.

I would add colourblindness doesn’t really change the raid; VG has different effects for each coloured animation and the splits are aways the same at NW, NE and S, Gorse has nothing colour related and Sabetha has different animations and an extra action button appear for the different bombs. I’m fine with them adding a colourblind mode of course but it really won’t stop you Raiding atm.

No red circles to stay out of? Because that’s my main issue. When we do guild races, the circles on the ground indicating traps are often invisible to me.

Righto then I hope Anet can get a good filter for you (is it Sabetha cannons you’re struggling with because the cannon positions dicatate the quadrant they appear in, in VG the red circle to stay out of has a Spark in the middle), there may be something like GemFX you can get in the meantime (I’m not totally familiar with the program but someone might have made a preset that works for you).

Community infighting because some asked for challenging group content which became the tag line for the expansion and the mantra for Anet this dev cycle. It was poorly implemented clearly and hasn’t been addressed quickly enough but that’s not the fault of those who asked for or enjoy this expansion that’s on Anet.

What is on the Get Gud crowd is the constant insistence that if you’re not enjoying the xpac it’s your fault. This is not remotely what was promised to those of us who paid to Play this game. Challenging group content in every aspect of the xpac all maps requiring organized groups to tackle meta events ad nauseam is not what we were sold. This is the issue, the xpac contains 4 maps which (whether you like it or not) are not what GW2 was built on.

This game was the anti MMO, and the base (or half at least) loved it for that. Anet have placated one side and upset the other half, that’s the issue.

I laugh at the Get Guds in GW2 honestly, I’ve been to the very top in raiding and PvP in far more competitive MMOs than GW2 and I left them to come here. This game can’t compete with those other MMOs in this regard and trying to isn’t wise.

Coulter.2315:

I would add colourblindness doesn’t really change the raid; VG has different effects for each coloured animation and the splits are aways the same at NW, NE and S, Gorse has nothing colour related and Sabetha has different animations and an extra action button appear for the different bombs. I’m fine with them adding a colourblind mode of course but it really won’t stop you Raiding atm.

I think my biggest concern for VG would be if a person had trouble distinguishing the green circles from the floor, if that person was assigned to green circle duty. But of course, you can simply avoid making that person do so. But everything else I agree with, there aren’t any other colour-based mechanics that don’t come with additional tells (like the bombs in sab you mentioned).

With a colourblind mode, I think the biggest reason to put it in is that it would greatly improve the QoL for a bunch of people, but without effecting the difficulty for any other players. Occasionally you see posts about people with nerve damage or disabilities that prevent them from coping with the faster-paced encounters, but it’s hard to address that without killing off the difficulty for players who don’t face the same issue. Whereas with a colourblind setting, everything remains basically unchanged for those who are not colourblind.

Jasper Defthand.3018:

The game still has all the casual elements that casuals have had since day one. The game simply has additional opyions for game content beyond the casual if you so desire to take part in. Yes the new maos have a slightly increased difficulty curve, but they are afterall intended for players who have been playing the game for 3 years. I repeat: (These – maps – are – intended – for – players – with – 3 – years – of – experience.) If after 3 years you are still having trouble with this game to the point of openworld being impossible for you then you should probably quit. You are destined to be low tier scrub for eternity.

The problem is everything we just paid for is the meta event mumbo jumbo and they have away the things we already had.

Lol I love when GW2 players talk like this. Low tier scrub? All this game has had for 3 years is a speed clear dungeon team meta. WvW has actual players but you’re talking about PvE…. In GW2…. I swear most of you have never played another game before this one.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

And the grind is worse than many other top mmos now.

Well done anet,you had one of the best community s maybe the best in any mmo,look what YOU have done to it.

Torolan.5816:

Why should I apply a scientific standard in my free time? Alternatives are there, and I enjoy them.

If you are such a fan of the scientific method, you surely can explain me why people still starve from hunger despiute distribution being scientifically possible, nuclear power plants still explode despite viable alternatives and solar cars have not replaced the regular car?
I tell you why: Money, power monopoly and convenience.
Add lazyness and nostalgia and you will have a large number or reasons and motiviations why people are content with their subpar stuff.

Because something being possible doesn’t make it optimal.

eldrin.6471:

Well done anet,you had one of the best community s maybe the best in any mmo,look what YOU have done to it.

The saddest thing is that they didn’t have to go this route IMO.

Even if they took the dev time they had allocated they could have done a much better job of making things for everyone to enjoy. Instead they went with Silverwastes as their template only with timers (grrr), for maps and threw in a bit of drytop for the verticallity. The raids were never really asked for save for a small minority, although many said they wanted more difficulty.

Had they just increased the difficulty of all open world critters in all non-starter areas by a touch (with more variety), and made only a couple new maps in the drytop style, they would not have caused such a stink IMO. The other maps could have been flatter, as the older maps are, maybe throwing in a few hearts for flavor, but with the new improved tougher critters.

The problem is they they pushed the pendulum to far in one direction and after years of a more or less casual MMO we get the division of beliefs that is so prominent in this thread.

Jasper Defthand.3018:

The game still has all the casual elements that casuals have had since day one. The game simply has additional opyions for game content beyond the casual if you so desire to take part in. Yes the new maos have a slightly increased difficulty curve, but they are afterall intended for players who have been playing the game for 3 years. I repeat: (These – maps – are – intended – for – players – with – 3 – years – of – experience.) If after 3 years you are still having trouble with this game to the point of openworld being impossible for you then you should probably quit. You are destined to be low tier scrub for eternity.

I rate this troll post 6/10. Not bad, but could use some polish and more advanced trolling techniques to really set it apart.

At this point im unsure if this game has took a change in direction or if anet just rushed things and messed up.i realy hope its the latter,and cant see how it makes any sense to turn your back on players who put thousands of hours in to your game in the hope that you might attract new players.

I remember when people complained that Gw2 is “too casual”.Now people complain that the game is not “casual friendly” and too challenging.Shrugs

ThreeHitDown.2169:

I remember when people complained that Gw2 is “too casual”.Now people complain that the game is not “casual friendly” and too challenging.Shrugs

Well I for one never heard the “too casual” argument, but then again I was playing it for over 3 years and enjoying myself and hence didn’t post as much here. I am now sitting out the game due to the new directions they have taken with HoT.

From what I read on the forums the complaint from many people is not that is is too challenging, but that timers are a constant reminder that we need to work on ANet’s schedule and not on our own. I have honestly not seen many complaints at all about the difficulty of the new monsters but I have seen/heard complaints on how the new maps are far to focused on verticallity.

If anet had gone with a more varied direction to accommodate all play styles I am sure the forums would be much happier with HoT. The long time players have learned that sometimes certain things are not for them, so we don’t bother with them. As HoT is a large collection of similar things though, it makes skipping “certain things” more difficult and in my eyes does not warrant the cost I paid for the Xpac.

edit: clarity