Guild Wars 2

I want to preface this by stating that every game, and every game type within that game, will always have a most viable way of doing things. There will always be a best way to do damage, a best way to survive, and a most efficent way to do both simultaneously.

For most MMO’s this is a set amount of players dealing damage, with 1 or 2 or sometimes 3 players actively holding threat, and a couple of backliners keeping every body alive, either through mitigation or straight healing. This works well for other games, and it’s a type of play that GW2 sought to remove itself from.

This isn’t to say that the Druid will completely destroy the game or anything, however I have noticed people on the forums, and ofcourse developers themselves, say things that completely… baffle me.

The current state of GW2’s meta is that the best way to kill enemies is to kill them, and the best way to not take damage is to not take damage. That’s how you play the game, that’s how the game teaches you how to play the game, and a meta that focuses on a maximised offence is what was born from it. I see big names like Nike and Brazil mention it all the time that the faster you take down an enemy the less time that enemy has to potentially deal damage to you.

The reason there are some detractors from this meta (which is fine, the game very clearly allows for Play How I Want groups to clear content) is because not everyone can grasp the pre-buffing, the rotations, the correct time to dodge, etc. Whether this is due to latency, age, ability or otherwise is none of my business.

What we’ve heard today is that the Devs are supporting a shift away from the damage/dodging meta that gets content cleared quickly. This is likely because of the constant complains from people that their particular class or their particular build isn’t welcome in a meta environment.

What nobody seems to be accounting for is that by creating content that needs a healer to heal, the developers are casuing the following (assuming raid content is exactly as they want it to be).

- A new meta that is much stricter than the previous meta. It will no longer be a “LF1M zerk” situtation but a “LF1M druid CLERICS OR KICK” situation.
- For this reason, the people who complained about the zerk meta will eventually complain about the druid meta. This is just my subjective anecdotal experience, but the majority of PHIW complainers are ranger mains who like their bear and their bow a little too much. Guys, you’re going to be pigeon holed so much more now that you’re the only class that can fulfill the role as dedicated healer. You have EVEN LESS BUILD DIVERSITY now.

- 2 years down the line, there will be a STRICTER set of viable ways to clear content. There will be more people complaining.

- This MAY REQUIRE THE NEED FOR AN INSPECT OPTION. This is a really important one in my opinion. Now that specific sets of gear are needed for specific builds on specific classes, there will actually be a need for an inspect feature. Raid leaders who are making pug groups will need a solid way of ensuring that the players who’ve signed up for a certain role are actually fulfilling that role. Because there will still be PHIW people detracting from the new meta (did i mention the new meta will be stricter than the zerk meta?) This will also warrant a gear lock-in system for raids.

I thought I’d be able to word this a lot more eloquently than I did but this is about all I have to say.
To summarise.
- New meta will be stricter.
- Will be complained about just as much, if not more than zerk meta 2 years down the line.
- Creates the need for additional features such as inspection and gear locking.

There it is guys. You ended the super strict super elitist zerk meta, and in doing so created what could potentially be twice as strict and twice as elitist. Just because someone kicked you for running clerics.

The meta is dead, long live the meta.

But anet said you can play what you want. “If your druid is off and can’t play you can take your necro and replace him and still do the raid”

Unless of course they lied.

Neox.3497:

But anet said you can play what you want. “If your druid is off and can’t play you can take your necro and replace him and still do the raid”

Unless of course they lied.

You can play what you want, it may not be the most efficient set up but so long as it is possible, it is not a lie.

I haven’t heard anyone say they DON’T want a meta, just that everyone having the same meta being boring. And I agree, if meta for my necro is valk gear or zerker gear so be it, as long as there is more variety between us and the other classes.

Random.4691:

Neox.3497:

But anet said you can play what you want. “If your druid is off and can’t play you can take your necro and replace him and still do the raid”

Unless of course they lied.

You can play what you want, it may not be the most efficient set up but so long as it is possible, it is not a lie.

Yeah this means many will be able to be “the healer” probably. The same way everybody is able to deal damage and don’t see people saying “lf1m ele ZERK OR KICK”

Neox.3497:

Random.4691:

Neox.3497:

But anet said you can play what you want. “If your druid is off and can’t play you can take your necro and replace him and still do the raid”

Unless of course they lied.

You can play what you want, it may not be the most efficient set up but so long as it is possible, it is not a lie.

Yeah this means many will be able to be “the healer” probably. The same way everybody is able to deal damage and don’t see people saying “lf1m ele ZERK OR KICK”

Once again, you see that because it is the most efficient/effective, it can be done without a specific setup though. People always want the path of least resistance, that doesn’t mean it is not possible by taking a different path.

Sometimes its good to take the scenic route rather than the highway that cuts off a fraction of time but is so much more boring.

Meta will always exist but what the Meta is changes based on new additions to the profession.

However, current Meta issue is that majority of the meta is mostly Zerker, Zerker, and Zerker with the mindset that Zerker is the only way to go if players want to get content done.

Hopefully HoT content starts leading to other builds outside of Zerker. Of course that may mean introducing mobs and fight that would punish players for going full Zerker and not having any Vit and Toughness in their gear set.

Depends on how much the encounters strictly require stats and builds over skill level.

Even now there are plenty of full zerk runs having ‘slightly slower’ individuals who bring the runs to a halt. Skill could be the bigger factor in Raids as well, and will likely be the factor if Arenanet wants a majority of the professions to be able to do the roles somewhat fairly.

Eventually an optimal meta will form, but only when the encounters are completely figured out. That probably won’t happen for months though, and given the extended requirement of 10 people rather than 5, raiders will end up needing to wait for longer trying to get that super optimal group (of which they don’t even know if other raiders are capable skill-wise) rather than getting the 2nd best and going into the raid sooner.

It’ll be interesting to see though, leveling an 80 plus getting them exotically geared to fill a role isn’t particularly hard, unlike in other MMOs where it was much slower but you had to go through raid tiers…

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the current meta has several facets that is undesireable to players. In particular, players want to be both useful while also being tanks and healers. Even if the LFGs change to “LF1M Cleric Druid or Kick”, the advantage is that players who want to heal now can play cleric druid and be welcome to parties.

Yeah, I don’t understand the mindset of people who think “oh, now the zerk meta is dead, I can join any group and run whatever I want!”

The same people who were kicking people for not running zerkers will now kick the people not running whatever the new meta is.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the current meta has several facets that is undesireable to players. In particular, players want to be both useful while also being tanks and healers. Even if the LFGs change to “LF1M Cleric Druid or Kick”, the advantage is that players who want to heal now can play cleric druid and be welcome to parties.

And all the TC is saying is, that while 1 problem is addressed, a new even bigger one is created. The bottleneck that is tanks and healers is no mythical pony. It’s something that is very real and has been a problem in the past in other games.

Altair.8402:

Yeah, I don’t understand the mindset of people who think “oh, now the zerk meta is dead, I can join any group and run whatever I want!”

The same people who were kicking people for not running zerkers will now kick the people not running whatever the new meta is.

Exactly.

Unfortunately the same people who did not educated themselves about the current meta, or were to lazy to find equal minded people to play with, will be the first to come complaining about “LFG Druid everywhere, I keep getting kicked”, “my damage ranger is not getting taken along. I have to be heal…. I can’t play the way I want” and “I have to make multiple ascended armor stat sets now, ascended is to expensive, nerf anet”!

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the current meta has several facets that is undesireable to players. In particular, players want to be both useful while also being tanks and healers. Even if the LFGs change to “LF1M Cleric Druid or Kick”, the advantage is that players who want to heal now can play cleric druid and be welcome to parties.

This is so bizarre though. Why would someone want to play a dedicated healer in a game that doesn’t require a dedicated healer? They’ve forced the content to change so it requires the very specific thing that they want to play.
While at one point any class could play through content, groups will be even more discriminate of who they allow into their party now.

Cyninja.2954:

Exactly.

Unfortunately the same people who did not educated themselves about the current meta, or were to lazy to find equal minded people to play with, will be the first to come complaining about “LFG Druid everywhere, I keep getting kicked”, “my damage ranger is not getting taken along. I have to be heal…. I can’t play the way I want” and “I have to make multiple ascended armor stat sets now, ascended is to expensive, nerf anet”!

This. It will be the exact same people complaining about the exact same situation. The topic of complaint will just be a different gear set.
Nothing has been fixed, but the bearbows and cleric shield guards have gotten what they wanted – the dissatisfaction of dedicated players willing to adjust their play style to meet a meta.

Which, by the way, we will do again in HoT.

.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the current meta has several facets that is undesireable to players. In particular, players want to be both useful while also being tanks and healers. Even if the LFGs change to “LF1M Cleric Druid or Kick”, the advantage is that players who want to heal now can play cleric druid and be welcome to parties.

The thing is, the people who have been complaining about being unwelcome due to wanting to be a healer will be complaining about being kicked because they don’t have the flexibility needed. Players will likely need to carry 2-4 sets (cleric’s, berserker, sinister and maybe nomad). Raids are going to consist of more than one boss and these bosses will require different things be done. If ANet is on the ball, the same setups will not be optimal for every boss. That may well mean that the same profession will not be best for a given role in each encounter. People may need to switch up their builds, gear and roles in order to be accepted by those doing the raid the meta way.

Whether the raid can be completed a way that allows Joe Healz to play healer all the time remains to be seen. However, if the raids are as promised — really hard — then two things will be likely:

1. Average play and play whatever you want will be less likely to be successful and thus accepted.
2. The harder the content, the better the player will need to be and the tighter the meta restrictions will be.

I don’t think that all of those who’ve been wanting to heal are going to like the new meta, whatever it shakes out to be.

Zalavaaris.5329:

I haven’t heard anyone say they DON’T want a meta, just that everyone having the same meta being boring. And I agree, if meta for my necro is valk gear or zerker gear so be it, as long as there is more variety between us and the other classes.

You keep using that word “meta”, but I don’t think it means what you think it means…

Cyninja.2954:

And all the TC is saying is, that while 1 problem is addressed, a new even bigger one is created. The bottleneck that is tanks and healers is no mythical pony. It’s something that is very real and has been a problem in the past in other games.

Well, the OP says a lot more than that, but everything else you say here is true. My main issue isn’t that the new “tank/heal/3dps” meta will be better. I think it won’t. My issue is that the line “there will always be a meta” is a caricature used to insult and dismiss anyone who disagrees with the zerker meta. There’s a certain point in the OP where I just stopped reading and started skimming, and it was right here:

Canakun.8031:

The reason there are some detractors from this meta (which is fine, the game very clearly allows for Play How I Want groups to clear content) is because not everyone can grasp the pre-buffing, the rotations, the correct time to dodge, etc. Whether this is due to latency, age, ability or otherwise is none of my business.

I’ve been around the sun a couple dozen times, and I’ve seen this kind of superiority fueled analytic BS before. Every time somebody goes on a stint explaining why other people disagree with their one true way I die a little inside, for my faith in the human race gets knocked another notch. Take this quote and remove the kid gloves, and you get this message:

“Other people (the PHIW) don’t want to play the way the rest of us play because they’re not competent enough to do it right. For whatever reason. I don’t care why.”

Which is ridiculous. It should be self evident that preference in play and competence in play are two unrelated qualities. I shouldn’t have to explain that one doesn’t lead to the other.

Don’t let the passive wording fool you. It is just fancy dressing on top of an elitist diatribe.

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

Zalavaaris.5329:

I haven’t heard anyone say they DON’T want a meta, just that everyone having the same meta being boring. And I agree, if meta for my necro is valk gear or zerker gear so be it, as long as there is more variety between us and the other classes.

You keep using that word “meta”, but I don’t think it means what you think it means…

Ummm I know perfectly well what it means. The meta is what the community agrees is the best way to do a particular thing. In WoW for instance the gear stats that were meta for my death knight were different than the stats that were best for my warrior. The talents we picked were also the best in some situations but not all. In gw2 the meta for kitten near EVERYONE is zerker zerker zerker ice bow stack and boss dead in 20 seconds. It’s fake pve.

We will have to wait and see, but the fact is that, as the OP points out, there will always be a meta.

Now, for regular play, that isn’t an issue. You can run whatever builds you want and stand a reasonable chance at clearing regular content.

With harder content, the dynamic changes a bit, largely because it will require players to take multiple roles, such as tank/dps, healer/dps, condition/heals, etc. Each setup will take into account a class’ strengths, meaning that each class/spec will have multiple meta possibilities.

Considering that ANet is bringing in legendary armor and the legendary back piece, shifting metas is going to be easy for those who manage it, meaning that the reliance on a single meta for multiple classes/specs may become less viable. It will still be viable, but might not always be the meta, allowing for more situational builds.

Of course, the stat and build switching on legendaries is only for those who take the time and go through the trouble of doing them, especially since it is highly likely that the legendary armor and back piece will be Bount on Account as soon as they are acquired.

Well, at first. It wouldn’t be the first time something like that changes down the line.

“There will always be A META” … Except there will never be another Ice Bow. Skill deleted.

10 drood heal meta

I do agree that rangers have gotten stuck with a narrow pigeon-hole role since all of their non-elite specs are suboptimal at best… but will everyone please stop dropping loads in their drawers for a minute? I’m absolutely sure that there will be multiple party types that can clear raids with comparable efficiency. Try a little boon-spreading, for example. It might just ruin your day if you are addicted to the full-zerker-is-always-best meta we’ve had for 3 years straight. A-net isn’t ‘forcing the holy trinity down our throats’, but they are saying L2P something besides straight zerker for once! If you absolutely insist on finding the exact party makeup that will allow you to clear a raid in world-record time, all I can say is have fun with that… because most people are not full-on speed freaks and we frankly don’t care if it takes an extra 30 seconds out of our day to clear a raid. That 30 seconds more than makes up for having to deal with a self-righteous raid leader who dictates every skill, piece of gear and action to every player in the group.

Canakun.8031:

What nobody seems to be accounting for is that by creating content that needs a healer to heal, the developers are casuing the following (assuming raid content is exactly as they want it to be).

- A new meta that is much stricter than the previous meta. It will no longer be a “LF1M zerk” situtation but a “LF1M druid CLERICS OR KICK” situation.
- For this reason, the people who complained about the zerk meta will eventually complain about the druid meta. This is just my subjective anecdotal experience, but the majority of PHIW complainers are ranger mains who like their bear and their bow a little too much. Guys, you’re going to be pigeon holed so much more now that you’re the only class that can fulfill the role as dedicated healer. You have EVEN LESS BUILD DIVERSITY now.

To summarise.
- New meta will be stricter.

this this this this this

I agree to a point Canakun.

I knew we were going to go backwards before we went forwards. I agree there will be less diversity for now, but the new trait system works, they just have to build outwards from here. Keep adding new trait lines and such (and stop calling them elites), how long it takes is anyone’s guess though.

Honestly, I felt with the recent elite specs that every class was viable in PvE content. you can only have 5 on a party and super world record speed run teams may be more strict—as they should—but you could bring anything to fractals and dungeons, and yes preferably zerk/sinister.

Engi is viable sinister or zerk
Ranger is viable melee zerk or sinister
Necro reaper is viable

GW2 PvE meta was finally in a place where any class had a strong viable build. Sure PSEA warrior and eles are highly valued, but as long as you have a little reflect, anything was viable and even strong.

Now we need to face tank and heal through “un-dodgeable” damage?

Gogo heal meta

There will always be a meta, but the prevailing meta for PvE content does not necessarily always represent the most efficient way to run that content as much as it represents the easiest group to form that can run the content the fastest

Take a look back at GW1. There were meta groups for every single piece of content, however those meta groups had a lot of flexibility, and more importantly running the meta wasn’t a massive difference from just running a balanced comp.

GW2s meta problem is that the way encounters are designed, the zerk meta isn’t just more efficient than a balanced comp. It’s actually like 20 times more efficient

That’s broken content, broken class balance, or both.

It’s not that the meta exists that was ever the problem. It’s that the meta is so much more effective than a mixture of damage, support, and control roles that it effectively makes them pointless

I’m sure that going forward there will be new meta, and that’s fine, but you can’t design content around a meta that is literally 20 times as efficient as how developers designed the content to be run because the content is then borderline impossible for everything but one very specific comp.

This means designing content where support and control aren’t supplemental, but vital to completion. Content up until now has been built around this idea that ‘you should be able to finish stuff if everyone just does damage and reflects’ and that resulted in the natural outcome: People build for nothing but damage and reflects.

You can’t expect builds to be useful if content doesn’t require what they bring to the table. Thus, if they want to make tank stats, healing, and control skills viable in pvE, it follows that content must exist that requires those skills.

Past that it’s on arenanet to balance classes so that every one of the can fill at least two, if not all three of those roles if they truly still want to design a game where there are no “required” classes.

A lot of the elite spec stuff seems to be doing that sort of fill-in-the-blanks stuff, adding roles (or at least trying to) to classes that they couldn’t access before.

It’s fine to need a healer, and a guy to tank the trash spawner on the far side of the room while everyone else fights the boss or whatever, so long as druid isn’t the only healer and guardian isn’t the only class capable of tanking the trash spawner, etc.

^This. So much this.

Why do you think that a random team should be comparable to a team specifically designed for content?

Gav.1425:

Why do you think that a random team should be comparable to a team specifically designed for content?

It’s the stated balance goal of the game. Literally “every class can fill any role”

It’s not a matter of random teams. It’s a matter of taking a random assortment of classes and ensuring that if each player in the comp makes build adjustments so that it results in a balanced comp of heavy DPS, support builds, and damage soak builds that the content is actually completable within a reasonable time frame compared to all other group compositions with the intended mix of roles.

As of right now, there is one, and only one role that has any value in PvE, and that role is damage. You can run that role on any class. The problem is that by function of class design one specific comp is not just more efficient, but so much more efficient that it makes it a waste of time to run anything else

Do you really think arenanet intended that all content be completable by nothing but damage builds with a bare minimum of support? It is obvious they view this as a problem, and it’s not the fault of the players, but the fault of how classes, skills, and content is designed.

all damage builds should be a no-go as much as running all bunker builds or all support builds as if your content doesn’t require people to bring a balanced party with a mix of roles, why would you bother designing those roles, or providing gear for those roles?

You should have to make sure you have a good group comp for content. As of right now there are plenty of good comps, but they’re all overshadowed by a single group comp that is 20 times more efficient

That’s a problem, and one Anet seems to intend to fix. When your design goal is that class roles are flexible, and players should have the ability to take any selection of classes and choose builds that make it work, it breaks the entire system when one specific option is not just slightly better (there will always be a comp that is more efficient than others) but so much better that it makes all other options effectively pointless in comparison

Zerk is just as bad as if the meta was “all healers” or “all tanks” or “All engineers” etc. etc.

Healthy balance means not just giving people the option of running multiple roles, but ensuring that in order to complete content those roles are required, otherwise you end up in the situation we are in right now. There is one role, everybody does it, and it severely hampers build options and trivializes content. That’s just bad for the health of the game.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a couple dozen times, and I’ve seen this kind of superiority fueled analytic BS before. Every time somebody goes on a stint explaining why other people disagree with their one true way I die a little inside, for my faith in the human race gets knocked another notch. Take this quote and remove the kid gloves, and you get this message:

“Other people (the PHIW) don’t want to play the way the rest of us play because they’re not competent enough to do it right. For whatever reason. I don’t care why.”

Which is ridiculous. It should be self evident that preference in play and competence in play are two unrelated qualities. I shouldn’t have to explain that one doesn’t lead to the other.

Don’t let the passive wording fool you. It is just fancy dressing on top of an elitist diatribe.

I base my opinions off of my experience, and my experience is that the majority of players who don’t want to participate in speed running content is due to (typically) latency, but more often than not age and ability have also been contributing factors.
You can make assumptions about my wording all you want, though, but the only time I ever play PHIW with no skipping is when I’m playing with a younger cousin of mine, or an elder, or a guildie who has trouble differentiating colour, etc.

My point is that this will be even more difficult for them under what I’m perceiving to be the new meta.

You’ve clearly had some bad experiences though, if your immediate reaction is to assume elitism in anything you read.

Random.4691:

Neox.3497:

Random.4691:

Neox.3497:

But anet said you can play what you want. “If your druid is off and can’t play you can take your necro and replace him and still do the raid”

Unless of course they lied.

You can play what you want, it may not be the most efficient set up but so long as it is possible, it is not a lie.

Yeah this means many will be able to be “the healer” probably. The same way everybody is able to deal damage and don’t see people saying “lf1m ele ZERK OR KICK”

Once again, you see that because it is the most efficient/effective, it can be done without a specific setup though. People always want the path of least resistance, that doesn’t mean it is not possible by taking a different path.

Sometimes its good to take the scenic route rather than the highway that cuts off a fraction of time but is so much more boring.

Once again, you have no idea what the point of the thread is.

He said people will be forced to have a druid which simply isn’t true (or shouldn’t be).

Let’s say the new meta won’t be 10 berserkers but something like 6 berserkers, 2 sentinels and 2 clerics. (dd, tank, healer)

Do you really think you will be now less welcome when you play berserkers or cleric? Zerkers might get a little less welcome (but is still the majority) but clerics have finally a place. (While obviously not every class will be able to be cleric you can still play something else)

Also remember that the meta is a “guideline” too. 5 zerker is the best, but 4 zerker and 1 soldier is also still alright (Not as bad like 5 clerics).

Now do that with my new example meta and you will see that you can actually MIX and be a hybrid of the meta. Something like 2 bersekers, 4 soldiers and 2 clerics could be just as good as the actual meta! Or maybe even 4 zerker and 6(!) celestials.

There are SO many possibilites suddenly. Nothing like the current zerk meta could accomplish.

“There will always be a meta”….

Well….

All “hardcore” PvEers and a sizable chunk – if not most – of casual PvEers who do dungeons / fractals all agree PvE is too easy. The zerker “meta” makes things go faster (not sure why people still do them though when you can get the gear a lot faster in PvP and I am assuming if you are rushing it is because the content is no longer fun to you) but most comps can complete everything.

In order for PvE to become more difficult mobs will need new abilities, they will need to have burst, they will need to have unpredictable rotations, they will need to have hard CC, and they will need to have some pressure (unavoidable or difficult to avoid damage). None of this requires tanks or dedicated healers however with the new Raids and even HoT open world mobs giving people a run for their money people will naturally shift their gear choices and builds on their own.

I main Necromancer and primarily PvP but when I do PvE I already act as the tank in certain Fractal bosses because sometimes you need someone to intentionally get hit and none of my Zerker team mates can sit in a lightning field long enough to get rid of immunity stacks fast enough on a boss. Or get hit on purpose so that the boss stays under the oil. Etc. I do Zerker armor / weapons and Valkyrie and cavalier trinkets.

The Trinity already exists in this game. 2/3 of the game modes are PvP and depending on my team and my opponents’ team’s comp I may be a support necro, a tank necro, or a DPS necro depending on what I expect I will need to be able to do. Except for the most competitive levels of play you can generally run what you want but you still don’t want more then two bunkers or more then one medium armor classes in your premade. A group with two rangers and a thief can work but you are going to have to have a phenomenal support and a phenomenal bunker in the other two slots even against PUGs.

In the end Druid will see more play in PvP then PvE because self-sufficiency eliminates the need for a dedicated healer with this combat system but Raids will shake things up and pure Zerkers will have a harder time then the people who specced for self-sufficiency. The only people who will “need” a Druid are the people who can’t adapt.

Also, the meta exists whether or not we are even aware of it. Chess has a meta, checkers has a meta, even rock paper scissors has a meta.

Lets not fix a huge problem because it may create another problem down the line. That’s what i got from the OP. Could it happen and will it happen? I’m sure it will, but anything’s better than the current garbage zerker meta.

I’d love to run a full bunker tank and support build and let all the zerkers do their thing but the current content doesn’t encourage it. It’s not required because the current group PVE content is terrible and has been since launch. That needs to change if this games PVE is ever going to be taken seriously.

Are there really great groups that make everyone else look terrible? Absolutely there are. Unfortunately when clear times become the best indication of skill rather than the act of clearing difficult content, then the content is subpar.

This can be fixed by encouraging and requiring different play styles and gearing as well as more intricate boss mechanics. This is what i feel Anet is trying to accomplish and i for one welcome it.

Canakun.8031:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a couple dozen times, and I’ve seen this kind of superiority fueled analytic BS before. Every time somebody goes on a stint explaining why other people disagree with their one true way I die a little inside, for my faith in the human race gets knocked another notch. Take this quote and remove the kid gloves, and you get this message:

“Other people (the PHIW) don’t want to play the way the rest of us play because they’re not competent enough to do it right. For whatever reason. I don’t care why.”

Which is ridiculous. It should be self evident that preference in play and competence in play are two unrelated qualities. I shouldn’t have to explain that one doesn’t lead to the other.

Don’t let the passive wording fool you. It is just fancy dressing on top of an elitist diatribe.

I base my opinions off of my experience, and my experience is that the majority of players who don’t want to participate in speed running content is due to (typically) latency, but more often than not age and ability have also been contributing factors.
You can make assumptions about my wording all you want, though, but the only time I ever play PHIW with no skipping is when I’m playing with a younger cousin of mine, or an elder, or a guildie who has trouble differentiating colour, etc.

My point is that this will be even more difficult for them under what I’m perceiving to be the new meta.

You’ve clearly had some bad experiences though, if your immediate reaction is to assume elitism in anything you read.

I’ve never met someone who didn’t justify their prejudices in experience. That’s why bigotry is so pervasive: no bigot thinks they’re a bigot. They just think they’re “right”.

EDIT: Spelling. “they’re” is hard apparently.

Ald.9418:

Lets not fix a huge problem because it may create another problem down the line. That’s what i got from the OP. Could it happen and will it happen? I’m sure it will, but anything’s better than the current garbage zerker meta.

I’d love to run a full bunker tank and support build and let all the zerkers do their thing but the current content doesn’t encourage it. It’s not required because the current group PVE content is terrible and has been since launch. That needs to change if this games PVE is ever going to be taken seriously.

Are there really great groups that make everyone else look terrible? Absolutely there are. Unfortunately when clear times become the best indication of skill rather than the act of clearing difficult content, then the content is subpar.

This can be fixed by encouraging and requiring different play styles and gearing as well as more intricate boss mechanics. This is what i feel Anet is trying to accomplish and i for one welcome it.

No, anything is not better. It’s bad, but at least now I can make “All welcome” groups and just run with whoever I get, and it’ll work. It might take longer, but it’s fine.

It sounds as though their solution is to make specific setups required. I hated declining people that applied to pick up groups I made in WoW because of the fact that without specific role setups it just wouldn’t work at all.

Ald.9418:

Lets not fix a huge problem because it may create another problem down the line. That’s what i got from the OP. Could it happen and will it happen? I’m sure it will, but anything’s better than the current garbage zerker meta.

I’d love to run a full bunker tank and support build and let all the zerkers do their thing but the current content doesn’t encourage it. It’s not required because the current group PVE content is terrible and has been since launch. That needs to change if this games PVE is ever going to be taken seriously.

Are there really great groups that make everyone else look terrible? Absolutely there are. Unfortunately when clear times become the best indication of skill rather than the act of clearing difficult content, then the content is subpar.

This can be fixed by encouraging and requiring different play styles and gearing as well as more intricate boss mechanics. This is what i feel Anet is trying to accomplish and i for one welcome it.

What you’re “getting” from me is incorrect.
I don’t consider the current meta to be an issue.
The point of my post is to let people know that what they’ve caused by complaining about the meta being strict, is caused an even stricter meta to come into existence. This is factual.
The zerk meta was simply the fastest way of clearing content that, theoretically, any build combination could complete. The only factor was time.
The new meta will factor other things into completion. There will no longer be ANY play how you want completion, especially with raids. There will be a strict set of builds and play styles that you MUST adhere to if you wish to participate and clear content.

This is what I’m saying. This isn’t fixing anything. The same people will still clear content, and the same people will still complain about meta strictness. Bearbow rangers and other PHIW builds will still be removed from any group who is serious about completing content.

This. Has. Not. Solved. Anything.
At all.

Canakun.8031:

This is so bizarre though. Why would someone want to play a dedicated healer in a game that doesn’t require a dedicated healer?

Some people enjoy being a strong support. I have a very close friend who really enjoys playing support in games like LoL or other MMORPGs, and she was a bit disappointed by how relatively weak the support is in this game. Supporting her group-members is what makes her feel powerful and helpful.

It is nice, in some ways, that content is easy enough to be cleared by pure dps teams – however, there should always be enthusiast-grade content that requires players to go outside of their comfort zone and operate in a specific role to achieve the highest prestige. One way of designing this is to require players to make use of the support and control specializations that currently and will soon exist – that is, making content that is difficult enough to require a specific composition of roles, while maintaining large class diversity by allowing most classes the ability to effectively fill either a DPS, support, or control role. This will additionally require some more coordination between players. When very different roles are present, communication becomes more important.

There will still be an ideal group composition for each fight – maybe, for the first fight of the raid, you’ll have the easiest time with 3 supports, 2 controllers, and 5 DPSers, and maybe the second fight will require 5 controllers, 2 supports, and 3 DPSers. People should have to switch specializations a bit. There’s nothing wrong with this as long as each class has access to multiple effective roles – so long as every class can fill an, ideally more than one, important niche in what rightfully should be a specific role-composition per boss fight.

Ultimately, the goal is to have challenging content, and for it to be enjoyable. Content that requires multiple and diverse specialists in different roles and thus requires communication and synergy is going to be more challenging and it will feel more rewarding because of that. Some people will get greater enjoyment out of the content because they enjoy supporting more than DPSing.

Other people might be less happy because they might have to go support or control if they can’t find someone else who enjoys doing it – however, one might argue that being versatile and being able to clear content in any role is the ultimate test of mastery. On this note, I have kind of a far-fetched idea: Perhaps, a future raid could have unique objectives that can only be completed by specialist supports, controllers, or DPSers, and the completion of these objectives could lead to specific, role-based rewards. Furthermore, it might be neat to see what a meta-reward that requires rewards from all three categories looks like.

I, for one, am happy to play any role so long as I’m not playing in that role all the time. I enjoy playing all aspects of my class, and I’d hate to be pigeon-holed into any one role forever – whether that’s support, controlling, or DPSing.

[/ramble]

Canakun.8031:

Ald.9418:

Lets not fix a huge problem because it may create another problem down the line. That’s what i got from the OP. Could it happen and will it happen? I’m sure it will, but anything’s better than the current garbage zerker meta.

I’d love to run a full bunker tank and support build and let all the zerkers do their thing but the current content doesn’t encourage it. It’s not required because the current group PVE content is terrible and has been since launch. That needs to change if this games PVE is ever going to be taken seriously.

Are there really great groups that make everyone else look terrible? Absolutely there are. Unfortunately when clear times become the best indication of skill rather than the act of clearing difficult content, then the content is subpar.

This can be fixed by encouraging and requiring different play styles and gearing as well as more intricate boss mechanics. This is what i feel Anet is trying to accomplish and i for one welcome it.

What you’re “getting” from me is incorrect.
I don’t consider the current meta to be an issue.
The point of my post is to let people know that what they’ve caused by complaining about the meta being strict, is caused an even stricter meta to come into existence. This is factual.
The zerk meta was simply the fastest way of clearing content that, theoretically, any build combination could complete. The only factor was time.
The new meta will factor other things into completion. There will no longer be ANY play how you want completion, especially with raids. There will be a strict set of builds and play styles that you MUST adhere to if you wish to participate and clear content.

This is what I’m saying. This isn’t fixing anything. The same people will still clear content, and the same people will still complain about meta strictness. Bearbow rangers and other PHIW builds will still be removed from any group who is serious about completing content.

This. Has. Not. Solved. Anything.
At all.

False. It has solved a very important problem. More than one role is now worth building

It doesn’t matter that people will complain they can’t “play what they want” It fixes the fact that what people want to play, in large part, was unplayable at all

Yes, people will complain that they can’t take their zerk build to a group that’s full on DPS. However, people can also easily swap out builds, just as they did in GW1 to fill another role in stead.

The reason you don’t view the previous meta as a problem is that you’re more interested in content being efficient than you are in content being challenging and engaging. no part of the all-dps meta created challenging content. It created an environment where everything but damage builds didn’t just have problems getting in to pugs or statics, but that it was literally impossible to find a spot because those builds were not needed at all

People will always complain about something, however, people that complain in an environment where multiple roles are both required and valueable in PvE content are simply playing bad builds, whereas people complaining in the current environment are playing good builds that the content doesn’t actually require

That’s the difference.

Elyndis.2130:

Some people enjoy being a strong support. I have a very close friend who really enjoys playing support in games like LoL or other MMORPGs, and she was a bit disappointed by how relatively weak the support is in this game. Supporting her group-members is what makes her feel powerful and helpful.

You’ve always been able to play a strong support within the zerk meta, though, so that argument isn’t really all it’s cracked up to be.
The most optimal way to run content in the current meta requires a guardian support, and either a mesmer or thief support.
The STATS they run are built for damage, but their role is support.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

Canakun.8031:

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

This is true. The meta is only a problem when a meta comp is, as it is now, not just more efficient, but so much more efficient that it can complete a run in literally half the time based solely on build rather than player skill

Take a look back at GW1, take something like the SS necro meta. It was more efficient, but in the end, if you took another well designed group that wasn’t running it, your clear times were at least 90% as efficient. Might stacking zerk meta is able to literally remove 40% of the party and have the same clear times as a balanced non-meta comp.

Nobody wants content to be faceroll, but what people do want is to bring in characters they actually like to play, make some adjustments to traits, weapons, and armor, and still feel like they’re being decently efficient.

Canakun.8031:

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

Oh I know, I just don’t believe that’s what everyone who subscribes to it thinks. Or, being fair, even if it is what they think intellectually, their actions can run counter to it.

Canakun.8031:

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

It may not be about that, but it quickly becomes that in larger games where knowledge is generated and spread very quickly. I’d say most people want to run efficiently, and other people will run according to the meta whether they want to or not because they believe that people won’t want to run with them if they play their preference.

The larger the game, the stronger the influence the meta will have on it – but that’s just based on my anecdotal experience. GW2 is big enough that the meta is very important to consider, and if the current one doesn’t allow enough role diversity, then a change would be a good move.

PopeUrban.2578:

Canakun.8031:

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

This is true. The meta is only a problem when a meta comp is, as it is now, not just more efficient, but so much more efficient that it can complete a run in literally half the time based solely on build rather than player skill

Take a look back at GW1, take something like the SS necro meta. It was more efficient, but in the end, if you took another well designed group that wasn’t running it, your clear times were at least 90% as efficient. Might stacking zerk meta is able to literally remove 40% of the party and have the same clear times as a balanced non-meta comp.

Nobody wants content to be faceroll, but what people do want is to bring in characters they actually like to play, make some adjustments to traits, weapons, and armor, and still feel like they’re being decently efficient.

It’s not based solely on build.
You still need to know what you’re doing, and have the skills to complete content at half the intended speed.

@PopeUrban

GW1 metas like perma SF sins with RoJ monks and Ursan spam! Things I miss the most from gw1 was more pvp mode variety, not so much it’s pve content that could be soloed with SoS rits.

All these people who are calling someone elitist for not wanting to be a non-meta build “Play how i want player” are just silly at this point. Clearly they are into playing optimally, that’s how they want to play and that happens to be meta so its a double win for them. What right does someone have to join a group with those like minded players and demand to be accommodated for?

Some people want to play to win as fast as possible to get on with their day, blues and greens don’t make something compelling to “take your time” to get to.

This is of course assuming their Raid content even allows pug style groups in the first place. For all anyone knows it could require a static group and make all of this a non-issue.

Good Challenging content will be designed around Roles within a fight there will always be a best profession for that role, players need to get over that fact quickly. It doesn’t mean you can’t do that role with another class but it does mean there is a clear best suited class for said Role.

healing has always existed in gw2, the only difference between than and now is that everybody knows that the healing is incoming from a certain class. before the healing was incoming from whatever source and nobody cared. i don’t think the new druid specialization will be that different from a guardian or an ele or any class whit effective builds who also can heal. i don’t think the content of this game will actually change that much to bring back old mmorpg habits. it is just evolving toward something which is not pure damage only, but also sustained damage, good supporting, effective healing. which is good, because you can try different roles while never switching class. of course there will be new metas and new elitists who believe they know better and will kick the hell out of people who don’t google their builds. but you see the problem is never the game, but the people who play it.