Piken Square
(edited by ImLegion.4018)
This is B2P!
1 2
I would gladly throw 50$ or more on this game if what i receive was actually worth that money (AND I MEAN INGAME STUFF..not just useless marketing minis..and BS). The total amount of information they showed on the expansion (including the interviews which stated they don’t want to put in a big number of maps but instead want to concentrate on smaller areas but vertical – which means 1-2..max 3 maps) is at best worth 30…let’s say 40$ if they polish the F out of it and there are absolutely no gamebreaking bugs.
Well, they priced it at $50, they feel it contains $50 worth of content, and they know more about it than you do. I agree with them. So, either you pay the $50, or you don’t, that’s entirely up to you, but dictating an alternate price is not one of the options available to you.
WRONG – The pre-order is just that, a pre-order. There is no original core game to purchase anymore.
The night before HoT pre-order was announced the game was still available at full price.. next day it suddenly has a 100% depreciation tagged to it and anyone who bought it the night before, the week before etc just got screwed over royally.
WRONG – Anyone who bought it up to a couple months before that can get a refund. Even if that were not the case though, it happens. Any time anyone has a sale, there are always people who buy before the sale is announced that end up paying the pre-sale pricing. There’s nothing underhanded about that. In any case, I wouldn’t expect them to sell a full priced version while also offering it as a free pack-in, but once the free pack-in offer expires it will likely go back up.
For me it’s the elusiveness of what is actually in the expansion, when it’s going to go live, and the total irrelevance they have placed on existing players.. that kitten storm is what has put the brakes on me whipping out my debit card for sure.
Anyone who is upset by any of that just has no experience with videogames, or has forgotten everything they may have learned. Video games are constantly making pre-orders available without announcing even half as much as HoT has. That’s not a sin. If you don’t know enough to justify you purchase right now, that’s ok, nobody is forcing you to purchase right now. You can wait. But they made the option available, and some people have been taking it because they do feel they know enough to justify the purchase. It’s not some dirty scheme against you that they offer you an option that maybe you aren’t ready to accept yet.
So yes, $50,- for a B2P game is fine and GW2 was put on the market as a B2P game, but then they should also behave as a B2P game, having no focus on the cash-shop but releasing regular expansion that then indeed may cost $50,-.
There is no such thing as a B2P MMO without a cash shop. That is not a thing. It cannot support itself, not unless they release a boxed expansion every few months, and that may as well be a subscription. ANet has done nothing wrong by having a gem store, the only thing wrong would be if the gem store employed shady tactics like P2W elements or progress walls, which it does not.
ANet has nothing they need to justify here, yes, you have to buy a box every few years to keep up with the content expansions. Yes, they make new cosmetic items available via the gem store, which are entirely optional. Neither of those things is “wrong,” separately or together.
No, for me winning in a MMORPG is getting that special skill, hat cool mini, or that funny toy. I want to complete some hard content and then get an item like that as a reward, that is ‘winning’ for me. Liadri is a good example of ‘winning’ for me.
I’ve had a similar argument (on your side) over another MMO, but with a distinction that I hope qualifies for you as well. I agree with you that there is a value to cosmetics, and that acquiring them can be seen as a “win” in some sense. Here’s where I disagree though, I believe that it can ONLY be seen as a “win” if you can actually acquire it through ingame means. That is to say, if the only way to acquire something is by buying it for currency, then it’s impossible to “win” that thing, you can only “buy” it, and buying is never a win.
So if they had it so that dungeon armors, or Luminous Armor, or any of those other items that have an attached difficult activity were made available as a gem purchase, then I could see that as being “P2W,” but if the gem store items are only available via gems, then you cannot “win” those, you can only buy them, so it’s not P2W.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Well, they priced it at $50, they feel it contains $50 worth of content, and they know more about it than you do.
That’s a bold assumption you made there. First of all: They want to sell a product. If they don’t show what’s in for the customer, they should either fire their PR department and fix this, or there really is not that much to tell about. Second: You make the assumption that the calculation is based around whether they think that the content is actually worth the price tag. That’s not how the economy works, I’m sorry.
WRONG – Anyone who bought it up to a couple months before that can get a refund. Even if that were not the case though, it happens. Any time anyone has a sale, there are always people who buy before the sale is announced that end up paying the pre-sale pricing. There’s nothing underhanded about that.
They can get a refund if they ask for it, losing all their progress in exchange, yes. Not a particular great deal depending on how much time they’ve already spend and a method of discouraging players to actually ask for the refund. It’s at least borderline false advertising nonetheless because they changed the F.A.Q. silently in the process.
Things like that make new customers sceptical about the trustworthiness of a business model and that’s not exactly what you want as a publisher in the long run – but thinking in long terms is also not what the economy is usually about in market-listed companies.
About the cash shop: Cosmetic items are not an issue, but there is no way around the fact that the gem shop also has convenience items for inconveniences which have been implemented in the game beforehand. That’s an underhanded sales tactic often criticized in games with cash shops (number of inventory slots and bank slots in case of GW2), so don’t pretend that everything in the gem shop is nothing but cosmetic stuff. It’s not, and I somewhat doubt that every GW2 developer was particularly happy about that.
Sorry, doesn’t wash.
Here’s a real-world example. I’m very fond of the game The Sims. I’ve had every version since the original, and every expansion for said games (though I have skipped some of the “stuff packs”).
Every, and I mean every expansion for all those games has been released as a standalone that people didn’t get the base game free with. After a few months released as a standalone, some of the expansions (but not all) would be bundled with the base game as a way for new players to get in, but as I just said, that’s after they’d been out as a standalone for a while.
ANet’s problem is that they’re not letting us get the expansion separately, they’re going right to the bundle phase.
So Anet offers a better deal then the sims, in a game that requires a health player base. Yet that’s some how a bad thing?
It was 2 vs 20 but its ok we got’em both!
Sorry, doesn’t wash.
Here’s a real-world example. I’m very fond of the game The Sims. I’ve had every version since the original, and every expansion for said games (though I have skipped some of the “stuff packs”).
Every, and I mean every expansion for all those games has been released as a standalone that people didn’t get the base game free with. After a few months released as a standalone, some of the expansions (but not all) would be bundled with the base game as a way for new players to get in, but as I just said, that’s after they’d been out as a standalone for a while.
ANet’s problem is that they’re not letting us get the expansion separately, they’re going right to the bundle phase.
So Anet offers a better deal then the sims, in a game that requires a health player base. Yet that’s some how a bad thing?
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
That’s a bold assumption you made there. First of all: They want to sell a product. If they don’t show what’s in for the customer, they should either fire their PR department and fix this, or there really is not that much to tell about.
Why do people keep acting as if the promotional push for HoT is done? They haven’t even announced four of the class specializations yet! They’re obviously going to keep announcing more information about the patch over the next months, leading up to release. If you don’t know enough to make a purchase right now, THAT’S OK. That is not a failure on their part, because they aren’t done yet. If they had dumped everything about the game prior to the pre-order announcement, that would have been a failure on their part, as it would have left them nothing to talk about over the next few months, and interest would stagnate.
If you don’t know enough to buy, then don’t, wait it out, but don’t act all insulted that they opened up the opportunity to buy the game before you were ready to purchase, there are plenty of other players who are not so tentative about it.
Second: You make the assumption that the calculation is based around whether they think that the content is actually worth the price tag. That’s not how the economy works, I’m sorry.
If they did not feel that their content was worth $50, then they would not price it at $50 or they would continue to add content. They know more than you about how much content is in the game, so they have a better idea of what it’s worth. Is it possible that even once you know everything that’s in it, you still won’t feel it worth $50? Sure, but for the time being, they know better than you.
They can get a refund if they ask for it, losing all their progress in exchange, yes. Not a particular great deal depending on how much time they’ve already spend and a method of discouraging players to actually ask for the refund.
If players want a refund, they get it. If they don’t, they don’t. They can’t expect to both get a refund AND continue to play the game. Either they made a mistake in buying the game before the HoT announcement, or they didn’t. If they’re happy with the progress they’ve made in the game so far, and want to keep it, then ANet owes them nothing more.
It’s at least borderline false advertising nonetheless because they changed the F.A.Q. silently in the process.
Conspiracy theory nonsense. The FAQ was written to be accurate at the time it was written. The situation on the ground changed, causing the FAQ to become inaccurate. They changed the FAQ at the earliest possible time to reflect this new reality. That is not at all “false advertising,” and that meme is only being promoted by those who just want the expansion to be cheaper in the first place.
About the cash shop: Cosmetic items are not an issue, but there is no way around the fact that the gem shop also has convenience items for inconveniences which have been implemented in the game beforehand. That’s an underhanded sales tactic often criticized in games with cash shops (number of inventory slots and bank slots in case of GW2), so don’t pretend that everything in the gem shop is nothing but cosmetic stuff. It’s not, and I somewhat doubt that every GW2 developer was particularly happy about that.
I’ve bought a few bank tabs myself, no bag space though. But if you compare the way that GW2 leverages these systems when compared to other games, they are WAY ahead of the competition. I mean, GW2 offers hundreds of bank spaces that are entirely free to the players, if you add up five characters with twenty slot bags, the potential for a personal guild bank, and all the crafting mat slots. I’ve seen other games where your entire account only gets a few dozen slots. You don’t need the added bank or bag spaces, given what ANet offers for free, but you might find it more convenient. I don’t see this as being remotely egregious on their part.
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
Yes they are. Existing players are getting the core game for free. They just already have it, so they aren’t going to really notice any difference. What you mean to say is that existing players are not being offered bonus candy on top of what the new players are being offered, which is true, nor do we deserve it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Ey, guys. I feel like most of you dont understand how B2P MMO works.
Ey, I am not sure you understand how business works.
If customers feel they are cheated then they do not buy or move to a products that they feel like the company cares.
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
Yes they are. Existing players are getting the core game for free. They just already have it, so they aren’t going to really notice any difference. What you mean to say is that existing players are not being offered bonus candy on top of what the new players are being offered, which is true, nor do we deserve it.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
Yes they are. Existing players are getting the core game for free. They just already have it, so they aren’t going to really notice any difference. What you mean to say is that existing players are not being offered bonus candy on top of what the new players are being offered, which is true, nor do we deserve it.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You might be right if this wasn’t more or less standard for MMOs. But since it is, maybe there’s, I don’t know, a reason for it?
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
Yes they are. Existing players are getting the core game for free. They just already have it, so they aren’t going to really notice any difference. What you mean to say is that existing players are not being offered bonus candy on top of what the new players are being offered, which is true, nor do we deserve it.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You might be right if this wasn’t more or less standard for MMOs. But since it is, maybe there’s, I don’t know, a reason for it?
Maybe because GW2 was supposed to be something different from the “standard MMO”?
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
Yes they are. Existing players are getting the core game for free. They just already have it, so they aren’t going to really notice any difference. What you mean to say is that existing players are not being offered bonus candy on top of what the new players are being offered, which is true, nor do we deserve it.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You might be right if this wasn’t more or less standard for MMOs. But since it is, maybe there’s, I don’t know, a reason for it?
Maybe because GW2 was supposed to be something different from the “standard MMO”?
And it is different. But it still needs to make money. Taking down a barrier to entry is one way of making money. Regardless of the fact that it does some things different, there’s no reason to believe it’ll do every single thing different.
I love how when Anet does something that other games do, they are guilty of being like other MMOs, but when they do something different, they’re guilty of doing something different for the sake of being different.
Just about any other MMO you’d have bought you’d be in far far worse shape in the same type of comparison. Think of people who paid for a year of $15 monthly fees and suddenly everyone was playing the game with no monthly fee. Or the people who paid for games that went free to play, including paying sub. Or all the WoW players who bought ever expansion all along, where a new player saves a couple of hundred dollars.
Giving a new player a reason to play takes away a barrier to entry and believe it or not, new players are good for the game. That is good for veteran players.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
It’s also available for $2.50 on Steam right now, that doesn’t mean that players who buy Fallout 4 can demand a $2.50 refund on their purchase if they don’t want the free Fallout 3.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
When GW2 came out, did it include GW1 for free?
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
.
Every player? Or only the ones that didn’t had Fallout 3 already?
Was Fallot 4 announced as “you’ll need Fallout 3 to play Fallout 4” months ago?
Just about any other MMO you’d have bought you’d be in far far worse shape in the same type of comparison. Think of people who paid for a year of $15 monthly fees and suddenly everyone was playing the game with no monthly fee. Or the people who paid for games that went free to play, including paying sub. Or all the WoW players who bought ever expansion all along, where a new player saves a couple of hundred dollars.
Or people,
<-
who bought a lifetime subscription to DCUO, only to have the game go F2P in, what, six months or so? Still, I am at least getting a monthly stipend in Sony funbucks out of them, no clue what to spend it on.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Every player? Or only the ones that didn’t had Fallout 3 already?
Every player, just like how everyone who buys HoT will be getting GW2 for free, whether they already have it or not.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Just about any other MMO you’d have bought you’d be in far far worse shape in the same type of comparison. Think of people who paid for a year of $15 monthly fees and suddenly everyone was playing the game with no monthly fee. Or the people who paid for games that went free to play, including paying sub. Or all the WoW players who bought ever expansion all along, where a new player saves a couple of hundred dollars.
Or people,
<-
who bought a lifetime subscription to DCUO, only to have the game go F2P in, what, six months or so? Still, I am at least getting a monthly stipend in Sony funbucks out of them, no clue what to spend it on.
See? You’re getting added value for being an existing player at the time of the changeover.
But we’re whining because we’re asking for what you’re already getting.
Why do people keep acting as if the promotional push for HoT is done?
Because they already sell the bloody thing and if you want to sell a product you’re better off at least trying to show what’s in for potential customers. If there would be a huge amount of content in this add-on, it would be insane to actually think that they would care to hide anything but the details which they already use weekly to create buzz.
If they did not feel that their content was worth $50, then they would not price it at $50 or they would continue to add content. They know more than you about how much content is in the game, so they have a better idea of what it’s worth. Is it possible that even once you know everything that’s in it, you still won’t feel it worth $50? Sure, but for the time being, they know better than you.
Alright, I get it, you really have no idea about economics. While I don’t have time or see the need to explain the world to you, I’ll try to give you at least an idea about how things like this happen.
The motivation behind a project like this is money. Without money, this game would not exist, end of story. The motivation behind most business is money. If a company wants to sell a product, the first question is: How much does the project cost us? The second question is: How much money can we possibly make with it? And no, the third question is not how much worth the project actually has for the customer. When it comes to the price tag, companies are interested in how much they can charge to get the most potential customers into buying the stuff.
Marketing researches make a lot of money by trying to figure out how much a company may charge for their products and how to lure potential customers into buying for more money than they would be willing to under normal circumstances.
All your ‘they think it’s worth it’ is fantasy, I’m sorry if I have to destroy your illusions. This is not a modding crew trying to make some money, this is an actual business. That’s also why you always have to watch for your wallet as a customer whenever somebody wants to sell something. Nobody is immune to good marketing after all.
And just in case you’re wondering whether I’m a crazy conspiracy theorist or not: It’s part of my job to read actual scientific studies about things like that to stay on top of things. It’s not like this research would take place in a secret government base or anything like that, if you look around you can even take part in studies like that and get some products or money out of it. It’s neither a secret nor rocket science.
Conspiracy theory nonsense. The FAQ was written to be accurate at the time it was written. The situation on the ground changed, causing the FAQ to become inaccurate. They changed the FAQ at the earliest possible time to reflect this new reality. That is not at all “false advertising,” and that meme is only being promoted by those who just want the expansion to be cheaper in the first place.
If there wouldn’t have been sales events beforehand, maybe. Under this circumstances? Not by a long shot. And your made up theory for the reason why people bring this up is mostly kitten.
I’ve bought a few bank tabs myself, no bag space though. But if you compare the way that GW2 leverages these systems when compared to other games, they are WAY ahead of the competition. I mean, GW2 offers hundreds of bank spaces that are entirely free to the players, if you add up five characters with twenty slot bags, the potential for a personal guild bank, and all the crafting mat slots. I’ve seen other games where your entire account only gets a few dozen slots. You don’t need the added bank or bag spaces, given what ANet offers for free, but you might find it more convenient. I don’t see this as being remotely egregious on their part.
It doesn’t matter at all whether other companies do worse than that or not. It’s a dirty tactic even without it being the worst example on the market if you deliberately create the demand you meet afterwards for a hefty amount.
(edited by Alicornus.7095)
The HOTS expansion is the end of my time on GW2 until they ever release the expansion separately.
Theyre using wordplay to gouge existing customers. Buy the expansion and get the base game free? No. That implies you can buy the 2 separate, which you cannot, making the implied “deal” moot. New players are getting a sweet deal here, but there is zero consideration for existing players.
Sorry, Anet, but I refuse to pay for the base game I already paid for once, so now I am done with GW2 until I don’t feel like I’m being gouged for content I already paid for. Some people here may pony up whatever price you demand and even defend it, but I’m not one of them. Whether you care or not, you lost a customer. Not even waiting for the expansion to hit, its uninstalled as of now.
The Sims example applies here. Yes, each expansion required the base game……but they did not charge you to buy the base game repeatedly with every expansion. You could get the expansions cheaper by themselves or get the entire bundle if you were a new player.
Its pretty sad that EA of all companies can manage a scenario like this better than Anet/NCsoft.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
When GW2 came out, did it include GW1 for free?
No, cause GW2 is not a GW 1 expansion. But if you buy the base WoW package and the current expansion you get EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXPANSION for free. That’s a lot of money you’d have spent if you’d been around buying expansions the whole time.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
When GW2 came out, did it include GW1 for free?
No, cause GW2 is not a GW 1 expansion. But if you buy the base WoW package and the current expansion you get EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXPANSION for free. That’s a lot of money you’d have spent if you’d been around buying expansions the whole time.
Then why bring up Fallout 4/Fallout 3?
Short answer, your example just fell apart.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
When GW2 came out, did it include GW1 for free?
No, cause GW2 is not a GW 1 expansion. But if you buy the base WoW package and the current expansion you get EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXPANSION for free. That’s a lot of money you’d have spent if you’d been around buying expansions the whole time.
Then why bring up Fallout 4/Fallout 3?
Short answer, your example just fell apart.
Sorry I compare MMORPGs to MMORPGs, because, get this, they’re basically the same genre. I don’t compare single player games to MMORPGs, because they have completely different logistics.
Short answer, you’re terrible at examples.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
When GW2 came out, did it include GW1 for free?
No, cause GW2 is not a GW 1 expansion. But if you buy the base WoW package and the current expansion you get EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXPANSION for free. That’s a lot of money you’d have spent if you’d been around buying expansions the whole time.
Then why bring up Fallout 4/Fallout 3?
Short answer, your example just fell apart.
Sorry I compare MMORPGs to MMORPGs, because, get this, they’re basically the same genre. I don’t compare single player games to MMORPGs, because they have completely different logistics.
Short answer, you’re terrible at examples.
See, and I tried comparing MMORPGs to MMORPGs when I asked about GW1/GW2.
You need to learn the First Rule of Holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging.
Now if you put most of the best looking items in a cash-shop, does that then not also count as P2W? It short of depends how you define winning.
You’re the first person I’ve met that would define wearing a nice outfit that you can’t earn in game as P2W. Most people don’t consider cosmetics a P2W issue. P2W indicates that what you buy will get you further or make you more powerful in the game versus other players that didn’t buy.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
You also spent $60 on something that new players could get for $50 a year or so later, and for $10 a year after that. Videogames depreciate, often fast. It’s preposterous to expect otherwise. Every player that buys Fallout 4 for XBone in the fall will be getting Fallout 3 for free, that doesn’t mean that people who bought Fallout 3 for full price have reason to be salty about it. They got the game they paid for and had years to play it before these new players are getting it, Bethesda owes them nothing more than that.
If ANet asking a fair market price for a great product is them kittening me, then that’s how daddy likes getting kittened.
When GW2 came out, did it include GW1 for free?
No, cause GW2 is not a GW 1 expansion. But if you buy the base WoW package and the current expansion you get EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXPANSION for free. That’s a lot of money you’d have spent if you’d been around buying expansions the whole time.
Then why bring up Fallout 4/Fallout 3?
Short answer, your example just fell apart.
Sorry I compare MMORPGs to MMORPGs, because, get this, they’re basically the same genre. I don’t compare single player games to MMORPGs, because they have completely different logistics.
Short answer, you’re terrible at examples.
See, and I tried comparing MMORPGs to MMORPGs when I asked about GW1/GW2.
You need to learn the First Rule of Holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging.
Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. Even according to Anet it was a CoRPG. It wasn’t an MMO because it had no persistent world. Enjoy the shovel.
Edit: To be clear, we’re talking about an expansion for an MMO. Not two different games as GW 1 and GW 2 are, and not other games that aren’t MMOs.
See? You’re getting added value for being an existing player at the time of the changeover.
But we’re whining because we’re asking for what you’re already getting.
Yes,. but that’s because I’d paid for a lifetime subscription, that’s what was promised to me and they were totally changing the terms. Players who were just regular subscribers got nothing special out of the deal even though they’d put in monthly subs up to that point. Likewise here, when you bought GW2 ANet never promised you anything other than that you would get to play GW2, and you can, so their job is done. They do not owe you anything more.
Because they already sell the bloody thing and if you want to sell a product you’re better off at least trying to show what’s in for potential customers.
You must be new to gaming. Pretty much any game on the market puts their product out for pre-ordering around six months to a year before it’s actually on the market. ANet did this years ago with GW2. Usually when they first do this, there’s nothing more than a trailer or something to go on. Nobody is forced to pre-order the game at that point, and most people don’t, but for those that want to, they can. That’s all that’s happening here. ANet is under no obligation to offer any more info than they have, nor are you under any obligation to purchase, but you’re given the option.
As the game gets nearer and nearer release, they will continue to add information, and after release other players will provide their own take on the game’s content, so the amount of info you’ll have to work with will grow. You can decide that it’s enough to make a purchase at any time that suits you, possibly never. That’s fine.
There’s only so much information that ANet can provide, and despite your complaints, it is in their best interests to drizzle it out slowly, so that new information is popping up even within the month of release, so that it remains fresh in people’s minds. That means that they can’t tell you absolutely everything about the game right this minute, but you aren’t forced to make any purchasing decisions right this minute, so that’s ok.
I honestly do not understand why people are getting bent out of shape about that.
And no, the third question is not how much worth the project actually has for the customer. When it comes to the price tag, companies are interested in how much they can charge to get the most potential customers into buying the stuff.
This is an ongoing project, not a “get our money and run” single game. If they release a game for $50, and the consensus is that it’s not worth $50, then it will considerably hurt their long term sales. Their job is not to provide enoguh information that every player can look at HoT today and say “that will definitely be worth $50,” but it Is their job to make HoT good enough that six months after launch players will look back and go “I definitely got my $50’s worth.”
If they fail in that then they’ve failed overall, because while they might have made more than they deserved off of HoT sales, they will make less off the gem store and future expansions than if they’d satisfied their customers. They know this, so I have faith that if they say it’s worth $50, then they believe it, and they might still be wrong about that, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on how much I’ve enjoyed what they’ve done in the past.
If there wouldn’t have been sales events beforehand, maybe. Under this circumstances? Not by a long shot. And your made up theory for the reason why people bring this up is mostly kitten.
That there were previous sales had nothing to do with it. The previous sales were to promote the game to new players, there’s nothing wrong with that.
It doesn’t matter at all whether other companies do worse than that or not. It’s a dirty tactic even without it being the worst example on the market if you deliberately create the demand you meet afterwards for a hefty amount.
I don’t really see it that way. I only see it as a problem when a company leverages this option too heavily, by either providing way too little free space, or by overloading the player with too much junk that they need to store. I think GW2 strikes an appropriate balance. You can choose to be bothered by this practice if you like, but I think that the specific way GW2 leverages it is a perfectly fair balance between the players having what they absolutely need without having to pay extra, and GW2 getting the money they need to continue to develop the game. I’ve bought plenty of gem store stuff that I honestly could have done without, if only because I felt I owed them a few bucks for the fun I’d been having.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
See? You’re getting added value for being an existing player at the time of the changeover.
But we’re whining because we’re asking for what you’re already getting.
Yes,. but that’s because I’d paid for a lifetime subscription, that’s what was promised to me and they were totally changing the terms. Players who were just regular subscribers got nothing special out of the deal even though they’d put in monthly subs up to that point. Likewise here, when you bought GW2 ANet never promised you anything other than that you would get to play GW2, and you can, so their job is done. They do not owe you anything more.
And I bought a lifetime subscription to GW2. But now they’re adding areas to the game that I cannot access without paying them more. In short, I no longer have a lifetime subscription to all of GW2.
And I bought a lifetime subscription to GW2. But now they’re adding areas to the game that I cannot access without paying them more. In short, I no longer have a lifetime subscription to all of GW2.
Ah. I think I understand what the angst is about then. You did not buy what you think you bought.
No, you did NOT buy a lifetime sub to GW2, or at least, not to everything that GW2 might ever be. They never offered that as a product. What you bought was the GW2 core game, which guaranteed access to the classes, races, and maps that the game shipped with, nothing more. Anything that they saw fit to add for free later, such as Southsun, or Drytop, you were not guaranteed any of that, but they gifted it to you anyways, and I’m sure you’re appropriately grateful. Anything they add in future, such as HoT, was never owed to you, and they can charge whatever they feel appropriate for it without in any way impacting the purchase you already made.
You NEVER had a lifetime subscription to all that GW2 might contain, you only ever had a lifetime sub to the core game, and you still do, nothing has changed about that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
They are offering a better deal to new players. They are not offering an equivalent deal to existing players.
Therein lies the rub.
Yes they are. Existing players are getting the core game for free. They just already have it, so they aren’t going to really notice any difference. What you mean to say is that existing players are not being offered bonus candy on top of what the new players are being offered, which is true, nor do we deserve it.
I spent $60 on something the newbies are getting free. If you think that’s fair, you go right on supporting ANet as they keep kittening you.
Yeah I think that’s fair since I have a lot of play time invested I the game all ready, it’s not like I haven’t used the product I payed for.
So some one else gets it for free now, what exactly does that do to make the game less enjoyable to you? What does it take away from you. How in anyway does in nullify anything you have already done in the game so far?
It was 2 vs 20 but its ok we got’em both!
The comparisons are invalid.
- In a P2P game, you are paying to access their servers, not for content updates or anything else.
- In GW2’s B2P model, we are not required to pay for accessing their servers.
The core game was paid for by the initial purchase of the core game, and any other updates afterwards was offered by Anet.
HoT’s value should be judged solely on it’s content, and nothing else.
I don’t understand people, that think free updates before HoT, is a justification for the HoT price tag. Is it any wonder why gamers are the most jaded? That’s because they let companies swindle & hustle them. It’s actually quite comical.
(edited by nexxe.7081)
I don’t understand people, that think free updates before HoT, is a justification for the HoT price tag.
Well, when you put it like that, I sort of agree, in a sense, but that isn’t really an argument I would make. From my perspective, it’s not so much that the previous free updates justify HoT’s price, as it is that:
1. by providing me with three years of free updates, they have built good will with me as a customer, they have given me a lot of stuff that I could have had to pay for, but was not asked to pay for, so that when they come to me asking for some more money, I think "sure, you’ve more than earned it already,
and
2. That I have every reason to assume that they will continue to provide content updates after HoT’s launch, and just as the free updates after GW2:2012 added value to that initial $60 purchase, I expect the post-HoT updates to add value to the $50s spent on HoT.
That’s just my own perspective on the matter though.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Now if you put most of the best looking items in a cash-shop, does that then not also count as P2W? It short of depends how you define winning.
You’re the first person I’ve met that would define wearing a nice outfit that you can’t earn in game as P2W. Most people don’t consider cosmetics a P2W issue. P2W indicates that what you buy will get you further or make you more powerful in the game versus other players that didn’t buy.
Well I just explained how cosmetics can be pay to win, you talk about paying to be stronger. I also said most people when talking about P2W do in fact refer to pay to kill but when literally looking at what it states it is completely true what I say. Not to forget that GW2 is very heavily focused on cosmetics, the supposedly highest weapon to go for basically is mainly a skin. Anyway, I never made a point of naming GW2 P2W but I do very much made a point of saying this buying (or grinding) of items in stead of them being rewarded is a negative for the game. So no-matter if you name it P2W or not, it does negatively effect the game itself, especially if you are into cosmetics. It is not like if it is not pay to kill then by definition it’s fine.
Just about any other MMO you’d have bought you’d be in far far worse shape in the same type of comparison. Think of people who paid for a year of $15 monthly fees and suddenly everyone was playing the game with no monthly fee. Or the people who paid for games that went free to play, including paying sub. Or all the WoW players who bought ever expansion all along, where a new player saves a couple of hundred dollars.
Or people,
<-
who bought a lifetime subscription to DCUO, only to have the game go F2P in, what, six months or so? Still, I am at least getting a monthly stipend in Sony funbucks out of them, no clue what to spend it on.See? You’re getting added value for being an existing player at the time of the changeover.
But we’re whining because we’re asking for what you’re already getting.
Ohoni have interesting double standard; that’s fun XD.
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