Guild Wars 2

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My interpretation form the HoT apresentation:

Masteries will only be used on the new pve map…. players that dont have the new pve map dont need them……

For some reason i think player tough they could bring them to wvw or any part of the game.

IMO masteries will look like utils to interact with map nothiing more, cut vines, debuf defiant from some mobs, clean special poison etc.

Aeolus.3615:

My interpretation form the HoT apresentation:

Masteries will only be used on the new pve map…. players that dont have the new pve map dont need them……

But the blog post about masteries proves this to be false. Why would the core game get new masteries that are forced to be separate from the Heart of Maguuma masteries, to the point of no tracks overlapping, if masteries will only be used in the Heart of Maguuma?

Solori.6025:

I don’t think this will change.
Just like in GW1 if you didn’t buy the expansion you didn’t get new classes, you didn’t get new armor,achievements, zones, dungeons, etc.

This is a false comparison. In GW1, the expansion added a brand new, geographically separate continent. For Factions, only a couple quests tied into Prophecies to create a “ferry” over. For Nightfall, there were some bonus heroes to gain from owning both Nightfall and another campaign. Even Eye of the North, the only official expansion, only added some tie-in quests.

In this case with GW2, the masteries system is simultaneously being backported to the original game. It’s a core progression system, but based on what has been said it will be unavailable to people who own the core game but not the expansion.

Myrden.2456:

You are losing none of the game if you don’t buy the expansion. You just won’t get as much as others who do pay for it. That sounds like good old-fashioned free market to me. What am I missing?

Obtena.7952:

I don’t see the problem. HOT access characters with masteries don’t impact a non-HOT’s character to access the part of the game they paid for.

As for not locking masteries behind HOT … give us a break. You’re kidding? So basically you just think it should be free … for reasons?

It’s not a matter of not getting as much. As stated at present, a non-expansion player will have their end-game character progression (gaining skill points by leveling) stripped out and replaced by nothing.

And as I stated in the linked post, it’s not a matter of “getting it for free.” I even specifically addressed that point.

Okay, ill bite on this one for two reasons of my own.

To the OP this is what I have to say:

The game needs an end game not everyone can achieve

Keep this in mind, I am a casual gamer, the idea of exclusivity really gets on my bad side but there is one value to it in terms of the mastery system.

Mastery is not denying you content based on a gear grind where you have to farm an entire week for a piece of gear that will let you do slightly more damage to a mob. Its a radical system that basically gives you specific upgrades to your characters actual progression which makes the idea of progression itself more valuable.

To me, most MMO’s fail to make content interesting because the only progression is a vertical bar of farming gear, getting random loot rolls that aren’t really that useful to you and being locked out by elitist jerks that judge you on your item level, not your accomplishment.

See, this system works better because the elitism side of the game is literally IN the game-play, it visually SHOWS you have earned what you have a right to access by having the ability to glide, or to fight Mordrem armored mobs.

My only gripe is that I hope they dont focus too much of the content entirely around leveling in end game zones since that may defeat the entire point of the system to my honest opinion.

This brings me to point two.

A-Net used to call Gw2 a casual friendly MMO, if not The Casual friendly MMO, but opinions change

A-nets focus has always been on trying to AVOID exclusivity but in Season 1 and in Season 2 to an extent they failed to achieve that by making a lot of the content a rush hour of die hard gamers followed by a dry well of those that missed out or chose to wait until the lag dies down.

The problem I have is not that the game is changed its demographic, but the fact A-net needs to come clean and ADMIT its changed rather than be shy to admit that they dont believe casual friendly content works anymore.

Even so, I still hope they develop content focused on optional game-play rather than mandatory. One thing I do believe however is that the STORY of Heart of Thorns must NOT be interfered with by using the mandatory mastery mechanics players denying them right to it.

The story is not the game, its a lore based thing for nerds and fans to enjoy the experience of an adventure in the Maguuma, dabbling in politics, being involved as the Pact Commander.

The Personal/Living Story is “your” thing, not everyone else, and if they start adding exclusivity to that like they did in certain season 1 releases (I’m looking at you Aetherblade Retreat/Thaumanova Reactor) then people are going to have a problem.

Season 2 was a good example of doing a personal story right for all its flaws and glaring issues it did at least achieve the idea that the story itself was YOURS to do.

The story is and always will be even as far back as GW1, soloable, and must ALWAYS BE, soloable.

The game itself, the raids, the hard bosses, the challenging loot? That’s for completion seekers that want engaging game-play.

As far as I am concerned, they can have that, but the story, should remain everyone’s free range.

Thornwolf.9721:

… who already have one , and could of just …

could have*

Sorry, very allergic.

Tren.5120:

Tom Gore.4035:

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

Wait, you’re going to severely kitten their means of level-80 character progression (acquiring skill points, to buy traits, skills they didn’t get while leveling up) and a major reason to run dungeons (they aren’t running them for gear, the drops are the worst I’ve seen in any MMORPG to date – “raid” the TP instead) for those players simply to make them buy the expansion?

I’m sorry, do you actually believe what you’re saying, or are you just maintain the status quo elitist attitude that seems to infest these forums?

Are you seriously insisting that people are running dungeons for the skill points? Seriously?

I mean, really seriously?

Wow… Just wow.

Terrahero.9358:

Linken.6345:

Terrahero.9358:

Tom Gore.4035:

Terrahero.9358:

Also the Mastery system replaces skill points when you hit lv80, meaning experience after lv80 awards mastery experience. It would seem unfair for non-HoT players to also lose the acquisition of skill points, as for them that would leave no purpose for post-80 experience.

Their purpose post-80 should be to buy the expansion. And it looks like Anet also thinks that way.

It’s not attractive to come a cross as to desperate.

Adding new content to an expansion is one thing. Stripping out content from GW2 and than reselling it in an expansion is quite something else.

And what content are they taking away again?

We were talking hypothetically. If arenanet takes the skillpoints for leveling post-lv80 away from everyone, but only give HoT players the mastery experience post-lv80, than that would mean non-HoT players lose all purpose of xp past level 80.

It’s a less grievous hypothetical situation than the new borderland, but a new expansion should never take away anything from players only to than sell it back to them.

Well I havent seen them say they would take away the ability to level without the expasion that would be kinda dumb imo.

If you dont get expasion your game should work like it did before expasnion hit.
Not give stuff away for free but not take anything away either.

Edit
And why not deal in fact, wait for them to do their deep delves if its not brought up ask about it. ( new boarderland and vanilia leveling etc )

They did their deep delve on masteries. That’s what my posts were in reaction to.

TaCktiX.6729:

They did their deep delve on masteries. That’s what my posts were in reaction to.

“How Do I Get Masteries?

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. When this ability is unlocked, your character’s experience bar will change to become a Mastery training bar while in PvE zones."

From that very blog post you reacted to, clearly states if you dont own heart of thorns you wont be able to train mastery hence it will be as it is now if you dont own the expansion.

Guess we ended this thread now.

Linken.6345:

TaCktiX.6729:

They did their deep delve on masteries. That’s what my posts were in reaction to.

“How Do I Get Masteries?

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. When this ability is unlocked, your character’s experience bar will change to become a Mastery training bar while in PvE zones."

From that very blog post you reacted to, clearly states if you dont own heart of thorns you wont be able to train mastery hence it will be as it is now if you dont own the expansion.

Guess we ended this thread now.

And in the post I made I brought that up. For economic reasons, I doubt that the skill point will remain for those who don’t have the expansion.

If I get problem #1 right, you’d want a group of developers to work for free on some kind of sequel everyone should have?

So, if you bought the 1st Harry Potter book, according to you, you should get #2-7 for free because it’s continuing the story you found in the 1st book even though JK Rowling worked on the sequels and improved many things?

I hope you won’t mind being paid just one day, because for the rest of your job you’re basically continuing what you’ve been doing on day 1.

Also, you don’t have problems with the mastery system, you assume you would have some.

Vergil, I do appreciate you condensing my argument down to a straw man. It is so refreshing.

I don’t think summarizing your argument to “I want some bonus but I don’t want to pay for it” is a straw man, you simply want your cake and eat it. That’s not how it works.

I do agree that this “end game” progression should have been introduced in the base game. However, due to X and Y constraints, they didn’t add it. They worked on a (supposedly) full fleshed expansion with brand new gameplays/activities/story steps/etc.

You’re basically asking to get for free what some people will pay for. After all, you want the masteries that can be used within the base game, so if I follow your logic (aka “I should get for free what touches the base game”), specializations should be free since you already have 8 classes.

Masteries are part of the new concept of GW2 that begins with HoT. After all, most (if not all) of us will end up buying the expansion.

So if your argument is “this end game-like content should have been released with the base game”, you are absolutely right. If it is “the addition of new features that will be used within the game that was released three years ago should be free for those who don’t want to buy HoT”, I can say you are far from being right.

TaCktiX.6729:

It’s not a matter of not getting as much. As stated at present, a non-expansion player will have their end-game character progression (gaining skill points by leveling) stripped out and replaced by nothing.

And as I stated in the linked post, it’s not a matter of “getting it for free.” I even specifically addressed that point.

Where did they say that people who didn’t get the expansion were losing their skill points? They said that people who got the expansion would gain masteries, and in doing so would stop gaining skills with levels because they would no longer be leveling like they were.

At what point did that say that when HoT comes out all post 80 leveling will stop across all accounts? If you don’t get the game, you don’t get masteries. If you don’t get masteries your leveling experience isn’t changed or interrupted. Therefore, if you don’t get HoT you don’t stop earning skill points.

TaCktiX.6729:

Linken.6345:

TaCktiX.6729:

They did their deep delve on masteries. That’s what my posts were in reaction to.

“How Do I Get Masteries?

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. When this ability is unlocked, your character’s experience bar will change to become a Mastery training bar while in PvE zones."

From that very blog post you reacted to, clearly states if you dont own heart of thorns you wont be able to train mastery hence it will be as it is now if you dont own the expansion.

Guess we ended this thread now.

And in the post I made I brought that up. For economic reasons, I doubt that the skill point will remain for those who don’t have the expansion.

So you made an assumption based on nothing, called it a fact, and then just went forward complaining about your ephemeral factoid? Thanks for a pointless thread based on nothing.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

I don’t think summarizing your argument to “I want some bonus but I don’t want to pay for it” is a straw man, you simply want your cake and eat it. That’s not how it works.

If that had actually been what you said, it might be true. But what you said was a Straw man within the first sentence. I hate that term, and I think it’s lame when someone pulls the card, but even I have to agree that you put words in his mouth that no one said.

Kal Spiro.9745:

So you made an assumption based on nothing, called it a fact, and then just went forward complaining about your ephemeral factoid? Thanks for a pointless thread based on nothing.

I don’t consider anything regarding the economy “nothing,” but that might be a bias of mine. I’m hypersensitive to anything that might affect the economy when applied en masse, because I’ve seen ArenaNet have the same approach with how they effect updates.

TaCktiX.6729:

Kal Spiro.9745:

So you made an assumption based on nothing, called it a fact, and then just went forward complaining about your ephemeral factoid? Thanks for a pointless thread based on nothing.

I don’t consider anything regarding the economy “nothing,” but that might be a bias of mine. I’m hypersensitive to anything that might affect the economy when applied en masse, because I’ve seen ArenaNet have the same approach with how they effect updates.

The nothing I speak of is the concept that skill points will just vanish as an acquirable resource, especially for those who are not purchasing HoT. You decided that was true based on your own imagination. No one from ANet made anything like that claim. You are the one freaking out about imaginary trespasses.

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

How many people do you honestly think will continue playing GW2 without the expansion? I mean, people are up in arms wanting more content, Anet delivers, and you feel a large group of people will be like “nah I’m good.”?

Draknar.5748:

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

How many people do you honestly think will continue playing GW2 without the expansion? I mean, people are up in arms wanting more content, Anet delivers, and you feel a large group of people will be like “nah I’m good.”?

I’m good. I don’t need the expansion right now.

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 1: It’s Completely Expansion Exclusive
Negative Incentive: Why Not to Make Masteries Expansion Exclusive

TL;DR, The masteries associated with the core game should not be locked behind the expansion, but given to any owner of Guild Wars 2. This functions as both an incentive to get the expansion for the cooler Heart of Thorns part, and a way to keep the community together even when it “splits” over the expansion.

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

1:
Masteries are used to unlock content. Specifically, expansion content. Just because it is located in the existing map doesn’t mean that the new content accessed by the mastery system is not expansion content. The expansion is not a free content patch, it’s a feature and content-rich paid addition.

2:
Masteries are horizontal in that they don’t invalidate your existing achievements. That was the intent of the system. They are progression tier that build upon your progress rather than incentivize you to throw out your hard work for a shiny new set of things. The mordrem armor is a great example. You don’t need to go grind out a whole new gear set for “of mordrem slaying” and toss your old stuff. You keep your achievements and treasures, and they retain their value, but your character progresses. They’re intended to be vertical in that they add ways for your character to improve. That’s what progression is. They’re horizontal in that they are several alternate paths to several different goals and content types, and co-exist as the system is expanded. You won’t need to grind out a mordrem fighting mastery in order to unlock, say, a corrupted fighting mastery. You won’t be putting points in to content that you don’t find valuable. Those tracks exist independently so you can choose how to direct that progressing in whichever order you choose. When the next big area or expansion releases, you won’t have to play catch-up by doing a bunch of unrelated tasks in this one if you don’t like the content, as all masteries use as a base level the existing leveling and gearing balance.

TaCktiX.6729:

Problem 2: Mastery Track Tiers aren’t Horizontal
Levels by Any Other Name: Mastery Track Tiers

TL;DR, Masteries are vertical progression, just like the existing leveling system is. Calling it “not the typical” is disingenuous and builds hype that is bound to get disappointed. But with a few simple changes, it can shift from raw vertical to almost horizontal, with added benefits.

this was posted on reddit at some point, but got deleted before i had a chance to reply.

basically, the whole foundation of his argument is flawed due to his misunderstanding of the terms “vertical progression” and “horizontal progression”. masteries still are horizontal progression. just because it takes progressively more effort to obtain them doesn’t mean you’re suddenly getting new powers that invalidate previous efforts and challenges.

to illustrate, i’ll use zelda as an example (i hope you play zelda, or else it’ll be hard to explain :P), since it’s a very similar analogue to masteries.

in a zelda game, you have both vertical and horizontal progression. the vertical progression occurs mostly on two fronts: obtaining more health, and getting better swords/tunics (the latter mostly in 2D games, as the 3D games’ tunics usually don’t make you more resilient without a side effect). both of those make you stronger, in that previous content becomes easier. percentage-wise, you take less damage than before (both from the tunics absorbing more damage and more hearts meaning you can take more hits before you go down), and you deal more damage to enemies.

on the other hand, you have horizontal progression in the form of items. to get items, you go through progressively more difficult dungeons, and obtaining them doesn’t make you inherently stronger, but it allows you to defeat new types of enemies and reach new places. those items give you more options, more possibilities, and yeah, it lets you defeat new enemies, but not through sheer power, but through new abilities, and even if it’s progressively harder to obtain them, it doesn’t mean it’s vertical progression.

note: i do realize a link between worlds is the exception to that, with its rental system.

Kal Spiro.9745:

The nothing I speak of is the concept that skill points will just vanish as an acquirable resource, especially for those who are not purchasing HoT. You decided that was true based on your own imagination. No one from ANet made anything like that claim. You are the one freaking out about imaginary trespasses.

I didn’t say that, either. I said that it would not be available for people who preferred playing non-high level content, since skill points are shifting off of leveling and onto hard encounters.

Does that affect hardcore players, or even people who like doing hard stuff but only have so many hours? No. It does affect the much larger majority who prefer doing other things.

Draknar.5748:

How many people do you honestly think will continue playing GW2 without the expansion? I mean, people are up in arms wanting more content, Anet delivers, and you feel a large group of people will be like “nah I’m good.”?

Because the expansion costs money, a fair number. For some people, throwing more money at a game isn’t in the budget because more important things take precedence. They might consider it when the money’s there, and my viewpoint is geared toward enticing them to buy it at that time, rather than saying “nah, I’m good, I’ll go buy this other game.”

Ralanost.8913:

And you aren’t getting it with the Mordrem. You simply can’t kill them until you get the mastery unlock. It really is no different than finding a key and opening a door, getting a glider to get to a new ledge or learning a language to open a sealed passageway. What is impossible made normal, what is impassable made traversable. Leveling is a gradual increase in your abilities, not flat out unlocking new areas. You gradually get better and can eventually tackle larger problems because you have higher stats.

That’s vertical progression. Until a player gets X skill/gear/MacGuffin, they can’t do the content.

And it gets better, because we can’t get X without running specific content repeatedly. It’s exactly the same thing as needing to run through raids to get gear so you can do the next raid. Exactly the same. The reasoning behind it is even the same – to distinguish players who have run through the content from those who haven’t, and give players who run through the content bigger/more numbers.

The more I learn about this expansion, the less excited I am about it. So far it sounds like a Tyrian spin on all the things that made me uninterested in other MMOs.

Gilosean.3805:

Ralanost.8913:

And you aren’t getting it with the Mordrem. You simply can’t kill them until you get the mastery unlock. It really is no different than finding a key and opening a door, getting a glider to get to a new ledge or learning a language to open a sealed passageway. What is impossible made normal, what is impassable made traversable. Leveling is a gradual increase in your abilities, not flat out unlocking new areas. You gradually get better and can eventually tackle larger problems because you have higher stats.

That’s vertical progression. Until a player gets X skill/gear/MacGuffin, they can’t do the content.

And it gets better, because we can’t get X without running specific content repeatedly. It’s exactly the same thing as needing to run through raids to get gear so you can do the next raid. Exactly the same. The reasoning behind it is even the same – to distinguish players who have run through the content from those who haven’t, and give players who run through the content bigger/more numbers.

The more I learn about this expansion, the less excited I am about it. So far it sounds like a Tyrian spin on all the things that made me uninterested in other MMOs.

boy do you have a gross misunderstanding of how things will work.

first of all, just because you can’t do something until you have something else, doesn’t mean it’s vertical progression. i wrote a post about it here, linking the idea of masteries to zelda items.

second of all, masteries can’t be earned by doing specific content repeatedly. you see, while mastery points are awarded through specific tasks, those points are only earned once, ever, per account. think of it like achievements: you get the achievement, and then no matter how many times you redo it (save exceptions that don’t exist with masteries), you can’t earn that achievement again. you unlocked it, that’s it. so to say that you’ll have to do the same thing over and over to unlock masteries is the literal opposite of the truth.

thirdly, the only “bigger number” you get is that next to your name plate, which again, is just like AP. you’re not better than other players for having accumulated more mastery points, you just spent more time going after them. masteries weren’t designed to split “great” players from “poor” players. they were meant to allow players to work towards new things while still keeping their old things relevant. so right now, you’ll have to get masteries to progress through the jungle, but you won’t need to level up again, or get new equipment. later, when more masteries are released, you’ll still need the same masteries to go through the jungle. the new masteries don’t invalidate the old ones.

TaCktiX.6729:

It’s not a matter of not getting as much. As stated at present, a non-expansion player will have their end-game character progression (gaining skill points by leveling) stripped out and replaced by nothing.

And as I stated in the linked post, it’s not a matter of “getting it for free.” I even specifically addressed that point.

I don’t think that’s correct; If I understand correctly, they aren’t changing the core game; masteries are just additional content. In fact, they can’t just strip something out from the original release and then leave a gap for people that don’t purchase HOT. They would instantly lose any player who doesn’t purchase HOT. It would be stupid.

In addition, you can justify however you want. It’s not reasonable to put paid content into a previous expansion for nothing, simply because they would de-value their new product. That makes no sense. You want the new content, you pay for it. If you don’t pay, you still have all the value you paid for the original release. This is a well established business model and it works.

Obtena.7952:

TaCktiX.6729:

It’s not a matter of not getting as much. As stated at present, a non-expansion player will have their end-game character progression (gaining skill points by leveling) stripped out and replaced by nothing.

And as I stated in the linked post, it’s not a matter of “getting it for free.” I even specifically addressed that point.

I don’t think that’s correct; If I understand correctly, they aren’t changing the core game; masteries are just additional content. In fact, they can’t just strip something out from the original release and then leave a gap for people that don’t purchase HOT. They would instantly lose any player who doesn’t purchase HOT. It would be stupid.

In addition, you can justify however you want. It’s not reasonable to put paid content into a previous expansion for nothing, simply because they would de-value their new product. That makes no sense. You want the new content, you pay for it. If you don’t pay, you still have all the value you paid for the original release. This is a well established business model and it works.

He chose to be ingorant I clearly copy pasted the statment saying.
Buying hot unlock the ability to earn mastery, gaining that ability change leveling bar to a mastery leveling bar