Guild Wars 2

Test.8734:

Nike.2631:

lukejoe.1592:

Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.

Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with BAD ENCOUNTER DESIGN.

The thing is, we have zero evidence that ArenaNet got any better in encounter design.

We have plenty of evidence that they are changing the types of encounters. It’s fine if you don’t like the direction the game is headed in (although that begs the question as to why you still want to keep playing it — but that’s your choice to make).

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

AGAIN, we don’t have any aggro system!!! now get your kitten together and move on!

WingLegacy.7159:

AGAIN, we don’t have any aggro system!!! now get your kitten together and move on!

Heh. That is so not true in my experience. It’s just mobs are semi-smart and want to hit things when their attacks are up rather than move. If you stand there and face tank they’ll stick to you like glue because they’re wagging their tails and swinging on you merrily. It’s when you run out of blinds and aegis and have to dodge they start to slide off looking for who hits them hardest because hey, if they have to move before swinging, they’re gonna move towards the biggest threat.

That and spirit weapons have an undocumented force-taunt. Which is weird, really.

erm. who is “we”?
talk for yourself mate.
i want nothing more than a trinity in this game – and i’m not alone.

Gav.1425:

The dev said “zerk won’t cut it.” What does that imply to you?

So “zerk won’t cut it” == You are forced to use a very specific setup.

Really?

Cures.7451:

erm. who is “we”?
talk for yourself mate.
i want nothing more than a trinity in this game – and i’m not alone.

Ehh the game? Trinity? I’m pretty sure your playing the wrong game. And yes you’re one of the few…

KryTiKaL.3125:

Lets get something straight here.

Anet was never against the trinity, what they were against was what the basic idea of the trinity has been for a long time. Where a specific class was shoehorned into a specific role. Anet did not want that, it did not want one class to only be viable in one role, they wanted each class to be able to accomplish the soft trinity (damage, control, support) in their own ways.

Sadly things did not go how they initially wanted them to and things turned into the zerker meta which is as unhealthy as unhealthy gets for GW2. PvE content, even with healers and “tanks” will not just be standing around face tanking, they have already shown even with temporary content, even with Living World content, that those boss fights involve movement, getting around and avoiding. They have applied those characteristics to enemies in HoT. Many people have -seen- it in the Beta Weekend Events.

The current zerker meta is not skill, its just sitting in a corner, stacked up, mashing buttons. At least PvP has variety, has goal purposes for different stat setups. PvE does too, Anet is just now trying to get people to utilize them because they have been there the entire time, people are just not touching them due to what the content has brought so they are trying to fix that.

They aren’t back peddling, they are just trying to fix what needs to be fixed so that their PvE experience can be far, far more enjoyable and challenging.

Or would you all rather think there is some sort of big huge conspiracy and be all paranoid? Because that is unhealthy too.

There’s nothing to get straight…except your misconceptions maybe. There is no conspiracy or paranoia…everything is out in the open now. Full blown dedicated healers are being implemented. Content is being implemented that will require these full blown dedicated healers to be completed. There are only a few classes that have this level of healing throughput…and all of the professions have been revealed at this point. What do you think will be expected of a ranger in a raid environment now? Druid or gtfo! I mean someone will have to fulfill this healing requirement right? Will it be professions that don’t have this dedicated strong healer specialization…or ones that do? That sounds like shoe horning to me. No conspiracy about that at all…no paranoia about that at all. That’s just logic and the process of elimination.

A huge reason this all has come to pass is because of a misconception, so many have, of what support is. I would even go as far as to say that it may not just be a misconception, but a difference of opinion on what constitutes support. Some people seem to think that support means healing. Others, like myself, think support is more than just healing. Support involves preventing damage, buffing allies, debuffing enemies, controlling territory/environments, and healing. Apparently, the camp that thinks healing = the only support is in the development seat at the moment.

There’s also the oversimplification of what the trinity involves. The trinity was not always about face tanking and standing in one place. There were many trinity fights that involved movement and various other mechanics. I’m sure the GW2 version of the trinity will be the same…at least I hope so…otherwise this was all a huge waste of time and resources. I’m thinking the GW2 version is probably not going to be exactly a trinity…as they have yet to introduce a true aggro control mechanic besides the current taunt in HoT. Healing also seems to be aoe in nature…and not able to be focused on one player. That seems to leave out the tank role, as there can be no tanking without aggro control. That leaves only two parts of the trinity for GW2, so I guess you can’t exactly call it the trinity.

People seem to have it in their heads that there will not always be a meta. The term meta in this game simply refers to the “accepted best” way of doing things. There will always be a best or optimal way…it would require perfect balance and encounter design otherwise… and we all know they aren’t going to pull that off. The “zerker meta” is just the care bear phrase of choice to rant about and blame all their woes on, as it has been a long time since this “zerker meta” was even a thing to commonly encounter. I know I pug high level fractals all the time…I literally never look for a guild group or even a preformed group…and it is very rare for groups to even ask for zerk, meta, or even mention any real specific requirements….much less for a gear ping. High level fractals are pretty much the only place where this zerker meta could exist in the current game…and even then…it is virtually non existent as far as any level of enforcement. I can definitely understand fears of this meta resurfacing in new content like raids, which I assume all this resurgence of zerk hate is about. All I can say to that is congratulations…you have managed to pressure ANET into removing phiw in favor of forced healing roles now. You have managed to pressure them into incorporating the exact opposite of what you were really asking for…the freedom to play however you want, without anyone trying to tell you differently. You had that freedom, but you just couldn’t leave well enough alone…now you are going to have raid leaders telling you to fulfill a dedicated healer role…since it will now be mandatory for success.

All these players spouting this anti zerk rhetoric always come back to “stacking in a corner mashing buttons”. If you actually knew anything about this “zerk meta”, then you would know that has not been the actual meta for quite some time on most encounters. That was just old strategy that out of date pugs were still holding onto instead of getting with the times. Its like when old people try to catch onto young people’s trends…and they are about 10 years behind on what the trend actually is. Yes, stacking in a corner still works best for some things….you think that will magically stop working because of dedicated healers? There will undoubtedly still be situations where it is best to line of sight mobs. That has been that way in innumerable mmos over the years…doubtful that mechanic is simply going to vanish completely. Undoubtedly there are going to be more and more situations where that will not be optimal…just like now. One thing people fail to recognize is that even the new aoe heals…are still dependent on players being grouped to receive their benefits. Boons are still going to require proximity to the boon giver to be acquired. The same with condi cleanses. Its time to just stop it with the anti stacking cries and just recognize that is an intended game mechanic…not some evil invention of players in zerk gear. Its time to recognize that sometimes standing at max range isn’t supposed to be either the best or an acceptable choice.

As far as what constitutes skill goes, what difference is there in skill by spamming healing spells versus spamming attacks? The only skill involved in PvE at all comes from the following:
1. The ability to recognize mob tells/cues and react.
2. The ability to determine and use the appropriate ability/skill in reaction to enemies

I fail to see how gear choice or stacking or not stacking…has any bearing on either of these two things. Honestly, this new dedicated healer situation will just dumb things down even further…this only leads to increased attempts to face tank …with the assumption that you can ignore said “skill” requirement and just get healed through stuff. I may seriously just buy HoT so I can be there the first time when someone types out “heal me druid!” I so remember those days from WoW and cannot wait to see the forum cries of being pressured to be a healer when you don’t want to be.

The “zerker meta” is just the care bear phrase of choice to rant about and blame all their woes on, as it has been a long time since this “zerker meta” was even a thing to commonly encounter

Take a look in Dungeon LFG sometime.

‘80 zerk p1’
‘experienced zerk only’

etc.

1. The ability to recognize mob tells/cues and react.
2. The ability to determine and use the appropriate ability/skill in reaction to enemies

I fail to see how gear choice or stacking or not stacking…has any bearing on either of these two things.

if you kill everything dead superfast you dont have to worry much about the difference between different enemies, or reacting, or really much at all

Shoe.5821:

Take a look in Dungeon LFG sometime.

You should follow your advice. At the moment there are 18 dungeon LFGs on the tool. Only 1 has the requirement of “metazerk” only (also says: ping gear). 1 out of 18 dungeon LFGs is “metazerk” right now. There are a lot of “exp only” but no “zerker only”.

Bearhugger.4326:

ODB.6891:

As far as the OP’s statement goes….“we” said we didn’t want the trinity by our original purchase of GW2….as that was one of the cornerstones of the game…clearly documented by the three roles being listed as damage, support, and control….not damage, tanking, healing. Just because some people couldn’t be bothered to read the game description, or because ANET is back peddling on the product they sold us, does not make that any less of a valid issue.

At launch, I think everyone was open-minded and willing to give a shot to this new type of party mechanics, but you have to be blind to not see how hard it failed. DPS/Control/Support never happened, the reality was DPS/DPS/DPS. That design led the competitive PvE to a dead-end, and a very shallow one at that.

I respect companies that innovate, but something’s only innovation when it’s at least as good as what was there before, and GW2’s party mechanics clearly didn’t improve on the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer.

I respect Arenanet if they have the guts to throw that design away and replace it with something that is perhaps less innovative but a lot more fun, compelling, strategic and inclusive for the majority of its player base.

That said, I think they’re just trying to make a place for players who like healers and tanks. I don’t think they’re forcing those roles on us. I think they’re just trying to make them playable and useful in groups. ie: You can go without a tank or a healer, but if you use those roles, they won’t be a waste of a group spot.

This is wrong in so many ways. Their design succeeded, but they made the mistake of allowing gear stat combinations in PvE that were superfluous. They left clerics, nomad, cavalier, rampager, etc gear sets available for PvE players to choose from, when there was not a need for them. There should have been a single gear set for PvE. That way players would not have chosen safety net gear to begin with and would not be looking at the need to handhold these players now to make them feel wanted or needed. They did not want to just correct this mistake after the fact by removing the unnecessary gear stat combinations from PvE, so now they are trying to find ways to force relevance of those stat combinations now. Had they not made this mistake to begin with, they could have balanced encounters properly around this base level of stats. They would not be trying to find ways to make players in zerk gear die without the assistance of dedicated healers. They would not be fighting with the condi cap and struggling with balancing condi versus melee damage as much. They would not be struggling with tuning bosses and mobs to hit hard enough to kill players in full nomad…at the expense of everyone else.

They did succeed in implementing their trinity of damage/support/control, but players stuck in the traditional trinity mind set still cannot adapt to a new paradigm. The new paradigm did not have those three elements as separate players….it is for each player to do all three of those things at once. We still have so many players struggling to understand that they are supposed to being doing damage, using support abilities and traits, and using control abilities and traits ….all at the same time. ANET seems to have given up on educating these players and decided to revert back to dedicated roles so these players will stop complaining. Hence we have our two new dedicated healers…ventari and druid.

It is a matter of opinion and personal preference as to whether ANET’s damage/support/control was an improvement over the traditional trinity’s tank/healer/dps. I don’t think one is an improvement over the other…they are just alternatives. I personally enjoyed the alternative, but it looks like that alternative is about to end because ANET could not stick to their vision. Instead they are letting the unwashed masses cries overwhelm them into reverting back to WoW.

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

I don’t understand how people think that gw2 requires no skill in the zeroes meta. Smh. If that were the case everyone would be doing high level fractals by now or finished all their dungeon.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Test.8734:

Nike.2631:

lukejoe.1592:

Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.

Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with BAD ENCOUNTER DESIGN.

The thing is, we have zero evidence that ArenaNet got any better in encounter design.

We have plenty of evidence that they are changing the types of encounters.

Irrelevant, tbh.

The quote I was replying to said (correctly, by the way) that the issues with the combat system are due to “BAD ENCOUNTER DESIGN”. That’s not HOMOGENOUS ENCOUNTER DESIGN. There would be no need to change the types of encounters if the ones we have weren’t bad.

Meanwhile, we go back to my question: ArenaNet has promised to change the type of encounter. Do we have any evidence that they got better at encounter design? Because making different types of encounters that are as bad or worse than what we have right now is not really an improvement.

They can talk the talk as much as they want, but when it’s about walking the walk, we get the Mordremoth Invasion. That doesn’t exactly instill confidence.

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

But isn´t a raid the epitome of greatness and adaptability anyway, so one of the team is of course the adaptable one and the healer for the evening? If a healer is really going to be mandatory, we are then back at where people that ask for gear from others are now in the position to play something they are either ill suited for or dislike.

Sounds fair to me as being on the other side of that stuff for years, but probably not to you.^^

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

Sadly tanking and healing are going to be a part because some players were upset with the skill difference between themselves and top-tier players who could apparently do content “too easily”.
Also because some other players are upset with people not playing the game the way they think it should be played.

Substatic.6958:

Corner stackers got rekt.

You really think this will be gone?
Also you really think that just because raids will have a different approach the normal approach of “meta zerk” in dungeons will change?

Gav.1425:

lordkrall.7241:

Tank stats and heal specs have been in the game since release. It is nothing new in the slightest.

The stats were in the game and not forced upon us.

They’re pushing trinity so players can play how they want. How is forcing tank stats and heals upon us letting us play how we want?

We want skillful, reactionary play. We take the increased risk of running glass for the reward of faster runs. Fail at character placement and you die.

The reason you don’t see the big timer PvE guys posting about this is because they’re waiting to test it out. They think they can still zerk through it all, but if and when they can, will they just nerf us down to force this meta?

Yes because Anet thinks that having “forced roles” will lessen the elitism and exclusion – somehow I think they believe that by forcing us to have players with roles we will now magically include PHIW players in runs because reasons?!

This will not happen – we’ll just want meta players on those roles.

ODB.6891

“What do you think will be expected of a ranger in a raid environment now? Druid or gtfo ! "

Great just what Rangers need, going to be even more hated.

I will highly recommend that ArenaNet read about my solution Confessor Elite Specialization. Understanding that there is a way to still break out of the Holy Trinity. Without making their professions (A player’s most valuable tool) become completely unplayable, not enjoyable, having no special place in GW2. I want ArenaNet to still believe in what they have strive for but casual-only-game-play should be completely dropped for expansions. Remembering Guild Wars; It’s the one of the best experiences I have had being mildly frustrated yet still pressing on for years to learn the game the hard way and I do not regret every second of overcoming the challenge of learning how to play a game! One of my first online games. Also my introduction to it was through a dear friend of mine. We all have fond memories of our favorite games, right?

If you are a player that is seriously thinking about quitting Guild Wars 2; was your experiences worth it through out the years or months playing the game?
I personally am regretting wasting 3+ years, 5,400+ hours of game time. It has been a long time for the game to develop mainly in technology, but not so much develop the concept of what it is like fighting a Boss. I wish they took more time to think about what is acceptable casual content and the difference in content that’s meant for End-Game, Hardcore-Play-Ability, Profession-Ability’s, What is true Game Progression: Common elements that makes it OK to be challenged as a player and find personal reward in mastering content or profession(s).
I can agree that particular content should not be locked behind other content, it’s a smart move for their raids but a lot of things in genneral are easy access… There will never be classes locked behind needing to be X level on a base profession, that is difficult on casual-play-ability and character deletion time gated at 24H… (*cough . . . TERA . . . *cough)

ArenaNet overall has made a very EPIC, MMORPG.
But all they got from their hard work was having to lack in areas of the game because
‘Lack-of-Knowledge’ and that is what makes a ‘Zerker Meta’ start. ArenaNet should leave the core content alone and let that be as it is with some updates from expansions, it still can give casual players something relaxing to do. If a casual wants to experience something new and wants to be challenged then they will work for the Elite Specializations and get new expansions to experience what a game is in spirit. That will also naturally promote people to stop the Zerker Meta by content that makes that build alone fail, or, make it more challenging to play that roll.

[Wait a moment . . . do not think I want to put down every casual-player that walks into this game. I personally do not enjoy casual play styles but that is ArenaNet’s poor choice to only think Casual… A hardcore player/developer would know more about what is casual play because they have experience in what’s not casual friendly. ArenaNet needs to look further in their professions very very very in-depth! People who know what they should be! Moving on…]

Zerk Meta is annoying but ArenaNet should rework the professions if they want to fix that play style!
Work on something like my solution: Confessor. My focus on Confessor is to show a build that is focused around the ability’s as a player to help make encounters based on reaction, the choices made in your build, and fits a very unique play style. And they should not have jumped the gun on this new trait system! Sorry in advance.
THAT IS THE KITTENING PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to be nice to ArenaNet and show their mistakes to them in a logical and calm manor… But they also got to know their developers are the ones screwing the game over. This is your game! You can change it! You can fix your problems if you put dedicated, knowledgeable people, on these projects! The most important!? How important is it to play a profession!? It is everything! Every game rotates around it like a Lazy Susan can only be what it is because of the base, it wouldn’t be anything without it! Your Artistic Teams for this game are amazing! No one in their right mind would question the art style of GW2.

But the Community & ArenaNet have to question the Developers; on these tasks and should of known too improve that before anything else was done to the Professions.
We have had this problem for many years… So many years! There is many reasons why I regret investing time into this game; with such greatness that it crumbles under the weight of its self.

ArenaNet, there is still a way but you have to be challenged, again.

“Trinity is good because it deals with corner stacking”

How can anyone be so dumb as to believe this?

There are perfectly good ways to deal with cornor stacking that do not involve forced roles upon players.
And how do you think a Healer can even do his/her job in a game with no targeted heals? STACKING IN A CORNOR! If anything a Trinity with dedicated healers would push more cornor stacking to maximize the healing. Tank n Spank is a term from trinity games.

“But the trinity means more build diversity!”

It means less build diversity. Currently zerker may be optimal, but everything is viable.
In a trinity with imposed roles you will spend more time waiting for someone to fill that neccesary role. I mean you obviously can not be both good at Healing and Damage. Good luck balancing that out. Some things will just not be viable anymore.

I’ve played a trinity mmo for years and i’ve seen the kitten that comes with it. Being told to respec because my class was a healer. Great, more elitism telling people how to spec because there is a shortage of that role.
If you think the few people making groups with “Zerker only” in the description now are bad. Just wait till your favorite profession is great at Healing, but not so great at dps and you really want to play dps. You’ll see some real elitism.

Not to mention the blaming. “Healer sucks, didnt keep me alive”. Yah, enjoy hearing that phrase a lot.

I don’t understand pve’ers. Really.
People are complaining about the “eventuality” of stacking for healing efficiency, but the current meta is already in a zerker wallstacking mindlesspewpew state.
So what? You’re gonna stack with a druid instead of an ele? I understand your frustration, it’s so game breaking.
But you know what. There are a lot of people who actualy enjoy healing in a mmo. And they will be probably happier to stack heal than stack pewpew. So stop thinking about yourself and how frustrating it is to stack with non dps. YOU WILL KEEP STACKING. Nothing will change. Don’t worry. Your corners are safe.

And healing is going to be awesome in wvw small group roaming. I can’t wait to be a healer again in a pvp environnement.

Nausicca.6038:

I don’t understand pve’ers. Really.
People are complaining about the “eventuality” of stacking for healing efficiency, but the current meta is already in a zerker wallstacking mindlesspewpew state.
So what? You’re gonna stack with a druid instead of an ele? I understand your frustration, it’s so game breaking.
But you know what. There are a lot of people who actualy enjoy healing in a mmo. And they will be probably happier to stack heal than stack pewpew. So stop thinking about yourself and how frustrating it is to stack with non dps. YOU WILL KEEP STACKING. Nothing will change. Don’t worry. Your corners are safe.

And healing is going to be awesome in wvw small group roaming. I can’t wait to be a healer again in a pvp environnement.

there are so many games with trinity that this was literally the only one without. I didn’t run zerker meta, but I enjoyed not having to fill a role. My elementalist and ranger? Who will ever want them in DPS now? I’ll have to go healer and I heal in so many other MMOs that I rather I wasn’t forced.

It’s such a 180 on your game design, on everything that this MMO was that today I reinstalled Wildstar. I was disappointed with that title and left it to come back to GW2, but you know what? At least I know what Wildstar is. I know how they can disappoint me. I know that they won’t pull a 180 like that there. And because GW2 is no longer an Ncsoft title I don’t have to worry about funding GW2 while I play that.

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Mirta.5029:

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?

I’m just saying that it’s severely disappointing to me when an MMO decides to abandon one of their selling points years later. It really feels like a slap to the face to those that bought the game for those reasons that they advertised then.

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Mirta.5029:

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Actually quite a number of profession can be that healer, from druid to ventari rev to eles/engis/mesmers, i used to run a healing necro build, not sure if that’s still possible (was almsot 2 years ago so lots changed) not to forget guard ofc. Not sure about warriors really and ofc thiefs have very limited healing (regen on steath, boons through stealing, shadowrefuge) So i don’t think that finding a “healer” is going to be specified to one class only.

The thing is, all anet is saying is that you have to think about your build instead of everyone goign full damage with nothing else, but instead some people go damage some go hybrid dps/supp or full supp.

After all, gw2 was always meant to have a support/control/damage trinity that all classes would be able to fill, it was always supposed to be that you need a combo of that, but that all classes would be able to bring that to the table, as such you arent stuck in x profession because you want y playstyle.

Harper.4173:

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

Sadly tanking and healing are going to be a part because some players were upset with the skill difference between themselves and top-tier players who could apparently do content “too easily”.
Also because some other players are upset with people not playing the game the way they think it should be played.

Harper for president!

dsslive.8473:

Mirta.5029:

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Actually quite a number of profession can be that healer, from druid to ventari rev to eles/engis/mesmers, i used to run a healing necro build, not sure if that’s still possible (was almsot 2 years ago so lots changed) not to forget guard ofc. Not sure about warriors really and ofc thiefs have very limited healing (regen on steath, boons through stealing, shadowrefuge) So i don’t think that finding a “healer” is going to be specified to one class only.

The thing is, all anet is saying is that you have to think about your build instead of everyone goign full damage with nothing else, but instead some people go damage some go hybrid dps/supp or full supp.

After all, gw2 was always meant to have a support/control/damage trinity that all classes would be able to fill, it was always supposed to be that you need a combo of that, but that all classes would be able to bring that to the table, as such you arent stuck in x profession because you want y playstyle.

Come on now. You can clearly see, that as of right now, there are only two professions that have the kind of healing throughput they are talking about….ventari and druid. The elementalist may come close with blasting water fields, but not with the continuous stream of super high healing the ventari and especially druid now have. They literally have every ability as a healing ability with high numbers now. Nothing currently in the game matches that. Certainly not a banner heal warrior or a mantra heal mesmer. Even a full nomad guardian won’t match that without some serious changes to the base profession. So yeah, if they don’t want specific professions forced into healing roles every time they step into a raid, they are going to have to make some serious changes to all the other professions. Now heal me druid!

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?

I’m just saying that it’s severely disappointing to me when an MMO decides to abandon one of their selling points years later. It really feels like a slap to the face to those that bought the game for those reasons that they advertised then.

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

What would you have them do, stick with the old system? That won’t work. Improve the old system? They’ve had 3 years to do that. There is no point in you deciding to take their decision as a personal offense, you either adapt too, or at least wait to try the system before you start complaining. Right now it seems your just whining because things aren’t how you like them.

Kormeg.2469:

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

What would you have them do, stick with the old system? That won’t work. Improve the old system? They’ve had 3 years to do that. There is no point in you deciding to take their decision as a personal offense, you either adapt too, or at least wait to try the system before you start complaining. Right now it seems your just whining because things aren’t how you like them.

it’s kind of like going “well guys action combat didn’t work out, we’re going back to tab target!”. Way to kill your uniqueness and your spot in an MMO market. GW2 has done a lot of things differently, has been noticed and has been quite successful for quite some time.
Then they started to turn all the progress that they’ve made back. “Actually we will do an expansion and not free updates”, “actually we do want trinity”. With all of the changes, why as a consumer right now would I choose GW2 over Tera? Or Blayde and Soul? Or Wildstar?
Action based combat is a whole genre of MMOs. If GW2 will kill everything that made them different to begin with, what makes you think that that will improve their population and not the reverse?

Gav.1425:

The dev said “zerk won’t cut it.” What does that imply to you?

On the other hand, nomad won’t cut it as well since there will be enrage timers.

Torolan.5816:

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

But isn´t a raid the epitome of greatness and adaptability anyway, so one of the team is of course the adaptable one and the healer for the evening? If a healer is really going to be mandatory, we are then back at where people that ask for gear from others are now in the position to play something they are either ill suited for or dislike.

Sounds fair to me as being on the other side of that stuff for years, but probably not to you.^^

The logic here is so twisted and convoluted that I am having trouble following it. How is the one person in the group that is only good for one thing (healing)…supposed to be the adaptable one. Are you saying they are adaptable because they have a high healing specialization and the other raid members do not? That may be the case with the ventari, but not with the druid. No one really wants a ranger in a group now, and they certainly won’t when druid becomes available. That leaves you no adaptation….just a mandatory expectation. As far as the rest of the group not being adaptable….they are currently (with the exception of necromancers) and have always been adaptable. That’s what the damage/support/control foundation of the game was previously built upon. The majority of the professions could do all three of these things….just now it likely won’t be enough because of the ramped up healing requirement they are putting into raids to force healers on us. Now we apparently are going to have to take probably two dedicated healers to each raid. If you think the damage dealing players are going to be the only ones expected to ping gear with this new setup….you are in for a rude awakening. If a ranger/druid walks in with anything but full nomad…I’ll leave the result to your imagination. Does that sound fair to you?

Harper.4173:

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

Sadly tanking and healing are going to be a part because some players were upset with the skill difference between themselves and top-tier players who could apparently do content “too easily”.
Also because some other players are upset with people not playing the game the way they think it should be played.

The act of wearing full zerker has no skill gate neither does destroying the molten berserker right when he leaps out in seconds, get real, you can almost automate the process, and you expect Anet to cater to people like you, its no wonder dungeons have been dropped entirely. You will lose raids the same way we lost dungeons if you continue with your godwin attitude.

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

What would you have them do, stick with the old system? That won’t work. Improve the old system? They’ve had 3 years to do that. There is no point in you deciding to take their decision as a personal offense, you either adapt too, or at least wait to try the system before you start complaining. Right now it seems your just whining because things aren’t how you like them.

it’s kind of like going “well guys action combat didn’t work out, we’re going back to tab target!”. Way to kill your uniqueness and your spot in an MMO market. GW2 has done a lot of things differently, has been noticed and has been quite successful for quite some time.
Then they started to turn all the progress that they’ve made back. “Actually we will do an expansion and not free updates”, “actually we do want trinity”. With all of the changes, why as a consumer right now would I choose GW2 over Tera? Or Blayde and Soul? Or Wildstar?
Action based combat is a whole genre of MMOs. If GW2 will kill everything that made them different to begin with, what makes you think that that will improve their population and not the reverse?

But what are they getting rid of exactly? Something that’s so rampant with people praising GW2 in regards to not using the ‘holy trinity’ is that people never acknowledge that they didn’t actually replace it with anything. How is introducing more defined classes (which I find to be incentive to actually care about and work with my teammates) removing something from the game?

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

And i’n regards to what you said about free updates as opposed to free updates forever; 1) that was not economically feasible, 2) It is the direct result of your fellow players wanting a traditional boxed expansion instead of continuous living story. Anet initially did not have plans to have an expansion, and many attribute that to why HoTs seems relatively small, but they did it because that’s what they think will be better received. And it probably will be for a while.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

The act of wearing full zerker has no skill gate neither does destroying the molten berserker right when he leaps out in seconds, get real, you can almost automate the process, and you expect Anet to cater to people like you, its no wonder dungeons have been dropped entirely. You will lose raids the same way we lost dungeons if you continue with your godwin attitude.

ALL encounters in ALL MMOs can be made into an automated process. You can bot the encounters. Trinity or no trinity. In FFXIV Savage raids I have a set rotation as a healer and set movement pattern. The challenge is in determining exactly what pattern works the best and learning to execute it, but it’s still a set pattern. That doesn’t mean that learning and executing patterns takes no skill. But if you think that anything will change pattern wise if they introduce a trinity, then you’re kidding yourself.

Also Anet dropped dungeons because they felt like it. No matter how “nice” or “mean” the players are going to be it won’t influence their decision of do they want to continue making raids after the first one or not.

Kormeg.2469:

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

I highlighted the most important part. It was for me. It really was.

In every single other MMO I don’t play what I want, I play what is needed. I play what will be useful for my team. Except in this one. Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted. Heck I even climbed the fractal ladder up until 50 on my necro, and people don’t really like necros normally. But necros, just like anyone else, could deal damage and it was up to player to execute the mechanics properly, so you didn’t lose too much from taking one into your group.

So you’re right. It’s not a major selling point for all. But it is for some. So I don’t approve 180 your design choice 3 years into the game.

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

I highlighted the most important part. It was for me. It really was.

In every single other MMO I don’t play what I want, I play what is needed. I play what will be useful for my team. Except in this one. Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted. Heck I even climbed the fractal ladder up until 50 on my necro, and people don’t really like necros normally. But necros, just like anyone else, could deal damage and it was up to player to execute the mechanics properly, so you didn’t lose too much from taking one into your group.

So you’re right. It’s not a major selling point for all. But it is for some. So I don’t approve 180 your design choice 3 years into the game.

For the most part I get your sentiment, really I do. If the whole no roles thing was a big thing for me, then I’d be upset too.

Mirta.5029:

Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted.

And this is the problem, you really didn’t choose what you wanted, you we’re just some variant of damage. The game as it is only rewards you for going damage specs in PvE. Sure you can use any class you want to do it, but you are most certainly relegated to being dps in same form of the other, otherwise you are effectively holding the team back.

And I guess this is where we differ. I don’t necessarily want for the game to have a trinity specifically, I just want a system where everyone isn’t just dps that spam all their buttons in every situation and win.

Mirta.5029:

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Obviously, raids will be a challenging, more pre made oriented (guild?) content than actual dungeons. They said pugs would have a hard time clearing these. I guess these groups will need DPS, healing specs, boons sharing specs, probably cc’ers/interrupt, or even stealth. Who knows? We know nothing about it. But maybe that aegis, or daze, or blind will be more important than healing during certain phases. So what? Groups will need to bring aegis spammers? A lot of classes can’t use aegis on demand. Same for blind, or daze, or stealth. So why not healing?
And if we need a rez banner for a specific mechanic? Warrior mendatory?
AoE moa? Engi mendatory?
AoE stealth? Mesmer/thief mendatory?

We should wait before complaining. Really.

lukejoe.1592:

Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.

Actually as I just came back ff14, I can tell you I spent more time on the move in big fights then I ever did in GW2’s dungeons. Even when tanking.

Celestina.2894:

Actually as I just came back ff14, I can tell you I spent more time on the move in big fights then I ever did in GW2’s dungeons. Even when tanking.

HoT won’t have dungeons-like content so I wouldn’t compare them.

rotten.9753:

Celestina.2894:

Actually as I just came back ff14, I can tell you I spent more time on the move in big fights then I ever did in GW2’s dungeons. Even when tanking.

HoT won’t have dungeons-like content so I wouldn’t compare them.

Wasn’t saying that, I was replying to luke’s comment about the trinity always meaning not moving.

Celestina.2894:

Wasn’t saying that, I was replying to luke’s comment about the trinity always meaning not moving.

If you try doing something like fotm 50 duo/trio, it’s suddenly a bit more active game-play than your stereotypical mash 1 in a corner. Harder content will make combat much more engaging and fun, it doesn’t need trinity but challenge.

rotten.9753:

Celestina.2894:

Wasn’t saying that, I was replying to luke’s comment about the trinity always meaning not moving.

If you try doing something like fotm 50 duo/trio, it’s suddenly a bit more active game-play than your stereotypical mash 1 in a corner. Harder content will make combat much more engaging and fun, it doesn’t need trinity but challenge.

I think you missed my point again, I was correcting an incorrect notion about the trinity. Couldn’t make it any clearer.

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

I highlighted the most important part. It was for me. It really was.

In every single other MMO I don’t play what I want, I play what is needed. I play what will be useful for my team. Except in this one. Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted. Heck I even climbed the fractal ladder up until 50 on my necro, and people don’t really like necros normally. But necros, just like anyone else, could deal damage and it was up to player to execute the mechanics properly, so you didn’t lose too much from taking one into your group.

So you’re right. It’s not a major selling point for all. But it is for some. So I don’t approve 180 your design choice 3 years into the game.

I feel the same way^

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Obviously, raids will be a challenging, more pre made oriented (guild?) content than actual dungeons. They said pugs would have a hard time clearing these. I guess these groups will need DPS, healing specs, boons sharing specs, probably cc’ers/interrupt, or even stealth. Who knows? We know nothing about it. But maybe that aegis, or daze, or blind will be more important than healing during certain phases. So what? Groups will need to bring aegis spammers? A lot of classes can’t use aegis on demand. Same for blind, or daze, or stealth. So why not healing?
And if we need a rez banner for a specific mechanic? Warrior mendatory?
AoE moa? Engi mendatory?
AoE stealth? Mesmer/thief mendatory?

We should wait before complaining. Really.

Apples and oranges for a significant part of your post. Swapping a utility skill is an entirely different beast than an entire specialization focused on healing. Multiple classes can rez with a single utility skill swap. It is highly unlikely they will design an encounter specifically around one utility of one specific class…so AoE moa is not a relevant argument. A stun, repeated daze, immobilize would generally accomplish the same things as an AoE moa. There are going to be at least 3 professions that can grant AoE stealth. Stealth has never been a mandatory utility in any instance/encounter…it has been a convenience at most.

ODB.6891:

A stun, repeated daze, immobilize would generally accomplish the same things as an AoE moa.

You don’t think it’s likely that they’ll throw in lots of groups of 5 lich form necromancers/rampage warriors?

ODB.6891:

Torolan.5816:

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

But isn´t a raid the epitome of greatness and adaptability anyway, so one of the team is of course the adaptable one and the healer for the evening? If a healer is really going to be mandatory, we are then back at where people that ask for gear from others are now in the position to play something they are either ill suited for or dislike.

Sounds fair to me as being on the other side of that stuff for years, but probably not to you.^^

The logic here is so twisted and convoluted that I am having trouble following it. How is the one person in the group that is only good for one thing (healing)…supposed to be the adaptable one. Are you saying they are adaptable because they have a high healing specialization and the other raid members do not? That may be the case with the ventari, but not with the druid. No one really wants a ranger in a group now, and they certainly won’t when druid becomes available. That leaves you no adaptation….just a mandatory expectation. As far as the rest of the group not being adaptable….they are currently (with the exception of necromancers) and have always been adaptable. That’s what the damage/support/control foundation of the game was previously built upon. The majority of the professions could do all three of these things….just now it likely won’t be enough because of the ramped up healing requirement they are putting into raids to force healers on us. Now we apparently are going to have to take probably two dedicated healers to each raid. If you think the damage dealing players are going to be the only ones expected to ping gear with this new setup….you are in for a rude awakening. If a ranger/druid walks in with anything but full nomad…I’ll leave the result to your imagination. Does that sound fair to you?

It does sound fair to me if I want to play such a character instead of a berserker geared one. Suddenly, one choice(Berserk) turned into at least 2(Berserk X or Ranger Healer) choices. There is also apothecary or cleric for the healing output, so i am not sure that nomad is really needed.

He is indeed the adaptable one because he is willing to change on the healer instead of adamantly demanding to be a damage machine. I am pretty sure that most veterans have classes that can heal really well even right now and still use them as damage dealers in 99% of all cases. Of course there will be long faces if you have to park your damage dealer for a run, but good guys sometimes take one for the team. And raids are a team effort and not about rewards or being an elitist if the propaganda for them told me right, so what could you do better for your team?

In general, I have no problem getting a seat that is given to me or anyone else that is not berserk because it is mandatory. A seat is a seat. It was mandatory to be berserk for years if you wanted to be seen as viable for certain types of content by some people and even then, you were excluded if you were a ranger or a necro. I don´t even have a necro and usually play guardian, so you are barking up the wrong tree anyway if you think that I want to press my ranger into raid groups at all costs.

So it is just that I enjoy using the “convoluted” logic because is it the raider mantra, specialize in damage or get out. Now replace damage with healing, and you have the same reasoning.

Torolan.5816:

but good guys sometimes take one for the team.

that’s kind of the point. It’s a thing that I had to do in all MMOs and the reason why I liked this one is because I didn’t need to do it here. Essentially you’re saying “you can no longer play the way that you want to play, but it’s okay because I always wanted to heal”. In fact it’s not okay at all.

Anet isn’t forcing people to have a tank or dedicated healer. They are adding incentives to it, but that makes sense, seeing as running around at 10k health and living shouldn’t be a thing for all but the highest of skilled players. If you are REALLY GOOD this change shouldn’t impact you, but that’s it. Being able to run full zerker should be seen as prestigious, done only by the top 1% of skilled players, not just the fastest way to blaze through content

Torolan.5816:

but good guys sometimes take one for the team.

and then another one, and another one, and another one.

I actually enjoyed League of Legends, and every role, but what actually ended up happening is that once the whole meta thing came into play, I ended up having to support almost every single game or suffer a torrent of abuse, to the point where I started to hate my previously favourite role and ended up quitting entirely.

I haven’t had to put up with it here, because despite what the self proclaimed experts tell you, there is no /required/ gear set. Berserker is the fastest for people in an ideal situation, but it’s in no way required.

At present, I can play whatever, create an LFG with an “All welcome” description (Minimum agony resistance X, otherwise all welcome for fractals), have it fill up near immediately, not have to kick anyone ever, and still complete what I set out to do.