We said we didn't want the trinity
If you wan’t trinity go play some kittenty games like wow or other crap of that kind – there are kitten load of them and those without this kind of bs are too few.
Stop with your pre-historic game mechs, they are casual-hostile (try o find competentive randoms now for arah or high lvl fractals…)
Otherwise chests ending dungeons and bosses should be locked and trapped to force thiefs as trapmonkeys and keymasters.
I think the trinity is only going to matter in raids. So it isn’t like it’s the entire game.
Healers? At least 6 proffesions will have easy acces to decent group support and heals….
The only thing you’ll need is some healing 781? 1361? or more in your stats somewhere
Tanks? No this game doesn’t support TANKS, but you can make a group much more sustainable by adding 200-400 toughness to all builds
Being TANKY helps the HEALERS HEAL…. You can ONLY heal so much… Making sure you take less damage then they can heal is the the sweetspot, and it will be faceroll from then on… From this point it’s just making sure you still have DPS and DOT for kills and when you get more comfortable and know to time dodges you’ll be easier to heal, and consequnetly you can drop toughness casuse you’ll be able to sustain yourself longer…. and lowering the dedicated healers in party to a lowr number…
There is your trinity enveloped in your own builds…
You can still be DPS, but with 200-400 toughness somewhere (few cavalier’s pieces or maybe a couple of knight’s)
You an still be DPS support, but buff it by changing the trinkets of a zealot armor from zerk to clerics… you’ll be done and have an instant tanky DPShealer….
You can still be condi but change your armor or your trinkets from sinister to rabid or dire and You’ll be done and you’ll instantly have a tanky Condition user…
Proper stacking of might and fury, banner use, spotter and strength in numbers will fullfill all your other needs… and light classes will still have 50% crit chance and ~3000 power or 2500 condition dmg, and last but not least 2500-2600 armor… and enough heal to face all the dragons at once… As for skills, CC’s and Reflects I think we will see….. after they’ve been released…
You’ll have 10 tanky builds with heals, DPS, DOT and I think it will solve a lot…
Like dungeos we will see shifts lowering the amount of armor when experience grows….
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
I think the trinity is only going to matter in raids. So it isn’t like it’s the entire game.
This game already has an open-world trinity:
Leecher
Zerker (aka downed/defeated)
Rezzer.
Seriously, in my book only a tiny fraction of the playerbase is really capable of handling zerker, I cannot count anymore how many players I have seen going to downstate from the FIRST wave at Tequatl, because dodge-rolling is still a miracle to them.
I found out that for me it is better to show up in my WvW PVT gear, as I cannot dodge-roll while rezzing. And if I don’t rezz, it may become a problem for the success of the event, since their inability to dodgeroll or jump is only topped by their inability to waypoint somewhere else.
So I’m standing there with my shoutheal-and-condicleanse warrior, trying to keep my environment alive. Don’t tell me about trinity, it is there already.
I think the trinity is only going to matter in raids. So it isn’t like it’s the entire game.
This game already has an open-world trinity:
Leecher
Zerker (aka downed/defeated)
Rezzer.Seriously, in my book only a tiny fraction of the playerbase is really capable of handling zerker, I cannot count anymore how many players I have seen going to downstate from the FIRST wave at Tequatl, because dodge-rolling is still a miracle to them.
I found out that for me it is better to show up in my WvW PVT gear, as I cannot dodge-roll while rezzing. And if I don’t rezz, it may become a problem for the success of the event, since their inability to dodgeroll or jump is only topped by their inability to waypoint somewhere else.
So I’m standing there with my shoutheal-and-condicleanse warrior, trying to keep my environment alive. Don’t tell me about trinity, it is there already.
trinity is not about healers/tanks/dps existing, its about mechanically requiring them to succeed.
You having to be a tank or healer for certain party skill levels, or team make ups is fine, requiring it is not.
Its the difference between being able to dodge roll that skill, and making everyone in the battle take damage regardless to what they do.
in the old system you were a hero helping the weak
in the new system you are required piece who better be doing his job, or the run fails.
way to screw up tequatl by not shoutheal ressing me bro. GG
and thats why the old concept was better, all they needed to do was increase difficulty, and healers become needed by most, but they arent a requirement. Its better to be a boon than a crutch
(edited by phys.7689)
I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.
This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.
Protip : people that are so bad/slow that they’re having trouble surviving current content in zerker gear will most likely be even worse off in raids – that is if Anet keeps their word and raids are actually difficult.
There’s no winning for the slow and average and unskilled players here – even if you can’t dodge all the damage raids will require coordination, skill and reflex – and if you didn’t have them before you probably won’t be raiding very well.It’s the speed clear people that win the most here – because they adapt the easiest and will probably find only other speed clear and hardcore minded players to go with on raids – while most other players sit on the sidelines.
Protip: Even seasoned berserk players fall then and when when facing the Ettin/Shaman combo or the Fireshaman/Diviner/Giant Ice Elemental in fractals and they don´t pay at least good attention. Please don´t tell me it does not happen, we both know it does.
Depending on the difficulty of the raid, you will probably be surprised how many people who think they can play actually can´t play that well. But hey, maybe I am wrong, then good for you. I am actually anxious to visit the forums in some months and see how things have developed.^^
Healers? At least 6 proffesions will have easy acces to decent group support and heals….
The only thing you’ll need is some healing 781? 1361? or more in your stats somewhereTanks? No this game doesn’t support TANKS, but you can make a group much more sustainable by adding 200-400 toughness to all builds
Being TANKY helps the HEALERS HEAL…. You can ONLY heal so much… Making sure you take less damage then they can heal is the the sweetspot, and it will be faceroll from then on… From this point it’s just making sure you still have DPS and DOT for kills and when you get more comfortable and know to time dodges you’ll be easier to heal, and consequnetly you can drop toughness casuse you’ll be able to sustain yourself longer…. and lowering the dedicated healers in party to a lowr number…
There is your trinity enveloped in your own builds…
You can still be DPS, but with 200-400 toughness somewhere (few cavalier’s pieces or maybe a couple of knight’s)
You an still be DPS support, but buff it by changing the trinkets of a zealot armor from zerk to clerics… you’ll be done and have an instant tanky DPShealer….
You can still be condi but change your armor or your trinkets from sinister to rabid or dire and You’ll be done and you’ll instantly have a tanky Condition user…
Proper stacking of might and fury, banner use, spotter and strength in numbers will fullfill all your other needs… and light classes will still have 50% crit chance and ~3000 power or 2500 condition dmg, and last but not least 2500-2600 armor… and enough heal to face all the dragons at once… As for skills, CC’s and Reflects I think we will see….. after they’ve been released…
You’ll have 10 tanky builds with heals, DPS, DOT and I think it will solve a lot…
Like dungeos we will see shifts lowering the amount of armor when experience grows….
400 toughness gives 12% damage reduction for light armoured professions, not that much if you think about that. It’s much more effective to have a team that has almost 100% uptime of protection.
Protip: Even seasoned berserk players fall then and when when facing the Ettin/Shaman combo or the Fireshaman/Diviner/Giant Ice Elemental in fractals and they don´t pay at least good attention. Please don´t tell me it does not happen, we both know it does.
Depending on the difficulty of the raid, you will probably be surprised how many people who think they can play actually can´t play that well. But hey, maybe I am wrong, then good for you. I am actually anxious to visit the forums in some months and see how things have developed.^^
Of course they fail, humans aren’t machines and are prone to mistakes. People that think otherwise are in for a rough awakening.
If the trinity is lazy & unoriginal… then what is a group full of zerker dps classes doing the same thing?
That’s far more unoriginal & lazy than the trinity.
Sure it’s been overdone in plenty of mmo’s… because it’s actually good.
Having a change in the trinity is a good thing. The same thing over and over again gets boring but to completely get rid of any type of roles is bad. Having everyone be the same thing “DPS”… well THAT is lazy & unoriginal.
I think in a game like GW2 having 2 roles would be nice.
1) Damage (not only high DPS but also might stacking, aoe quickness, other buffs that increase your party’s damage.)
2) Survivability (no… not tanking but everything alltogether: party damage migitation, healing, CC, aegis, protection, taunt.
Having these 2 roles would make PvE a lot more interesting in my opinion. Have every class get access to both roles (not at once. more like having diffirent builds. Not just ZERKZERKZERK)
Let’s say you love playing Ranger but your party needs more survivability. Swap to druid & heal, CC, cleanse for your party
There are no issues with having a druid or another spec that is focused on healing. Now if the only way to beat a raid is to have a druid/healing REQUIRED, then yes, it is a failure on the part of ANET.
I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.
This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.
Protip : people that are so bad/slow that they’re having trouble surviving current content in zerker gear will most likely be even worse off in raids – that is if Anet keeps their word and raids are actually difficult.
There’s no winning for the slow and average and unskilled players here – even if you can’t dodge all the damage raids will require coordination, skill and reflex – and if you didn’t have them before you probably won’t be raiding very well.It’s the speed clear people that win the most here – because they adapt the easiest and will probably find only other speed clear and hardcore minded players to go with on raids – while most other players sit on the sidelines.
Protip: Even seasoned berserk players fall then and when when facing the Ettin/Shaman combo or the Fireshaman/Diviner/Giant Ice Elemental in fractals and they don´t pay at least good attention. Please don´t tell me it does not happen, we both know it does.
Depending on the difficulty of the raid, you will probably be surprised how many people who think they can play actually can´t play that well. But hey, maybe I am wrong, then good for you. I am actually anxious to visit the forums in some months and see how things have developed.^^
What you have said is true with the small addition that those “zerker veterans” make fewer mistakes than the average PHIW casual player.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
There are no issues with having a druid or another spec that is focused on healing. Now if the only way to beat a raid is to have a druid/healing REQUIRED, then yes, it is a failure on the part of ANET.
Could be more like " Its Optimal to run one or two Guys who can Support through healing but you still can get this done without it like everything else"
Won’t stop Ppl telling that it would be the only Way to do it
(edited by Walhalla.5473)
Healers? At least 6 proffesions will have easy acces to decent group support and heals….
The only thing you’ll need is some healing 781? 1361? or more in your stats somewhereTanks? No this game doesn’t support TANKS, but you can make a group much more sustainable by adding 200-400 toughness to all builds
Being TANKY helps the HEALERS HEAL…. You can ONLY heal so much… Making sure you take less damage then they can heal is the the sweetspot, and it will be faceroll from then on… From this point it’s just making sure you still have DPS and DOT for kills and when you get more comfortable and know to time dodges you’ll be easier to heal, and consequnetly you can drop toughness casuse you’ll be able to sustain yourself longer…. and lowering the dedicated healers in party to a lowr number…
There is your trinity enveloped in your own builds…
You can still be DPS, but with 200-400 toughness somewhere (few cavalier’s pieces or maybe a couple of knight’s)
You an still be DPS support, but buff it by changing the trinkets of a zealot armor from zerk to clerics… you’ll be done and have an instant tanky DPShealer….
You can still be condi but change your armor or your trinkets from sinister to rabid or dire and You’ll be done and you’ll instantly have a tanky Condition user…
Proper stacking of might and fury, banner use, spotter and strength in numbers will fullfill all your other needs… and light classes will still have 50% crit chance and ~3000 power or 2500 condition dmg, and last but not least 2500-2600 armor… and enough heal to face all the dragons at once… As for skills, CC’s and Reflects I think we will see….. after they’ve been released…
You’ll have 10 tanky builds with heals, DPS, DOT and I think it will solve a lot…
Like dungeos we will see shifts lowering the amount of armor when experience grows….400 toughness gives 12% damage reduction for light armoured professions, not that much if you think about that. It’s much more effective to have a team that has almost 100% uptime of protection.
Do you think having a healer also allows you to turn noob again?
Yes protection helps and perma weakness on the enemy as well (hi, necro’s)
The weakness will reduce incoming dmg to 75% and no more crits and the protection reduces it by 33% combining the 2 gives you 50% remaining dmg, 0% chance of crits with 12% reduction leaving something in the 44% or so… Then you can be healed. Until that point where people understand these requirements I think maybe full soldiers and good fails is a must for people. Or not thinking of raids at all …
Active defence…. and intelligent use of blasts… Protection is way weaker then Weakness.. but combined they shine.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Do you think having a healer also allows you to turn noob again?
I’m not sure I follow.
Yes protection helps and perma weakness on the enemy as well (hi, necro’s)
The weakness will reduce incoming dmg to 75% and no more crits and the protection reduces it by 33% combining the 2 gives you 50% remaining dmg, 0% chance of crits with 12% reduction leaving something in the 44% or so… Then you can be healed. Until that point where people understand these requirements I think maybe full soldiers and good fails is a must for people. Or not thinking of raids at all …
Active defence…. and intelligent use of blasts… Protection is way weaker then Weakness.. but combined they shine.
I’m not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that weakness is way stronger than protection. Last time I checked, 25% is lower than 33%. Even so, stacking protection is easier since it can be stacked up to 9 times while weakness only 5.
Last thing, weakness doesn’t reduce critical chance to 0%.
As far as the OP’s statement goes….“we” said we didn’t want the trinity by our original purchase of GW2….as that was one of the cornerstones of the game…clearly documented by the three roles being listed as damage, support, and control….not damage, tanking, healing. Just because some people couldn’t be bothered to read the game description, or because ANET is back peddling on the product they sold us, does not make that any less of a valid issue.
At launch, I think everyone was open-minded and willing to give a shot to this new type of party mechanics, but you have to be blind to not see how hard it failed. DPS/Control/Support never happened, the reality was DPS/DPS/DPS. That design led the competitive PvE to a dead-end, and a very shallow one at that.
I respect companies that innovate, but something’s only innovation when it’s at least as good as what was there before, and GW2’s party mechanics clearly didn’t improve on the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer.
I respect Arenanet if they have the guts to throw that design away and replace it with something that is perhaps less innovative but a lot more fun, compelling, strategic and inclusive for the majority of its player base.
That said, I think they’re just trying to make a place for players who like healers and tanks. I don’t think they’re forcing those roles on us. I think they’re just trying to make them playable and useful in groups. ie: You can go without a tank or a healer, but if you use those roles, they won’t be a waste of a group spot.
+1 Good Sir / Miss.
I’ve wanted a place in GW2 for a long time… a place where my skills can truly shine.
I’m totally ok with active mitigation. It’s more interesting to me than a DPS rotation.
I thrive in the heat and take the pressure; so that my guildies aren’t carried out in a stretcher.
“GW2 needs a tank.” – to others I’ve b*tched. Hopefully the Revenant can scratch that itch.
-Tank4Life-
I am a tank at heart.
Sometimes I wonder what I’m doing here…
Sometimes I wonder what I’m doing here…
At this point, the majority would welcome a trinity. Anet tried, but the concept just failed.
Just because they make one specialization line healing focused does not mean that a trinity is coming to the game – and, no, most would not welcome it (EVER).
I think the druid looks fun and will have a place in the game without becoming a must have. What I would like to see, however, if for Anet to look at some of the other professions that can bring strong heals – such as ele, guardian, engineer (with med kit or turrets) – and balance those heal-focused builds those professions offer around the druid. It would add something to the game – and, no it would not mean every group has to have dedicated healers (why on earth would we want that – directly opposes everything this game has come to be for many of us).
To be fair I would LOVE some sort of trinity. Maybe not the old trinity everyone got bored of. But in an action combat based game like gw2 having a trinity-ish system would certainly be interesting.
To be fair I would LOVE some sort of trinity. Maybe not the old trinity everyone got bored of. But in an action combat based game like gw2 having a trinity-ish system would certainly be interesting.
i already tried it in tera.
playing solo was highly entertaining, playing in groups was boring and sleep inducing (comparitively) Because the amount of attention i had to pay to not getting hit, or mitigation was low (tank holds aggro) and i didnt really have to worry about my hp much even taking regular unavoidable type dmg, because the healer was healing it.
and that game was designed from the ground up to support a trinity. I dont think gw2 will implement a more compelling trinity style with a few tweaks.
At this point, the majority would welcome a trinity. Anet tried, but the concept just failed.
[Citation Needed]
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
To be fair I would LOVE some sort of trinity. Maybe not the old trinity everyone got bored of. But in an action combat based game like gw2 having a trinity-ish system would certainly be interesting.
i already tried it in tera.
playing solo was highly entertaining, playing in groups was boring and sleep inducing (comparitively) Because the amount of attention i had to pay to not getting hit, or mitigation was low (tank holds aggro) and i didnt really have to worry about my hp much even taking regular unavoidable type dmg, because the healer was healing it.and that game was designed from the ground up to support a trinity. I dont think gw2 will implement a more compelling trinity style with a few tweaks.
To be fair, GW2 & tera combat are very diffirent.
And how much attention do you have to pay in GW2 to not getting hit if everyone just bursts everything down in a few seconds and if you down, you get back ressed up in less than 3seconds?
I’m not saying the whole tank, heal, dps trinity should come to GW2. But some sort of teamwork & roles would be really nice so not everyone is just another DPS.
Let’s say Druids become the meta healers. They can’t burst heals constantly to keep everyone alive, they can save people with some burst heals but once it runs out they won’t be able to keep up the idiots who just stand in aoes or just facetank bosses.
Support should be support and not babysit people who get caught by every single attack.
To be fair I would LOVE some sort of trinity. Maybe not the old trinity everyone got bored of. But in an action combat based game like gw2 having a trinity-ish system would certainly be interesting.
i already tried it in tera.
playing solo was highly entertaining, playing in groups was boring and sleep inducing (comparitively) Because the amount of attention i had to pay to not getting hit, or mitigation was low (tank holds aggro) and i didnt really have to worry about my hp much even taking regular unavoidable type dmg, because the healer was healing it.and that game was designed from the ground up to support a trinity. I dont think gw2 will implement a more compelling trinity style with a few tweaks.
To be fair, GW2 & tera combat are very diffirent.
And how much attention do you have to pay in GW2 to not getting hit if everyone just bursts everything down in a few seconds and if you down, you get back ressed up in less than 3seconds?I’m not saying the whole tank, heal, dps trinity should come to GW2. But some sort of teamwork & roles would be really nice so not everyone is just another DPS.
Let’s say Druids become the meta healers. They can’t burst heals constantly to keep everyone alive, they can save people with some burst heals but once it runs out they won’t be able to keep up the idiots who just stand in aoes or just facetank bosses.
Support should be support and not babysit people who get caught by every single attack.
That’s going to be interesting if you have a druid and an offensive meditation guardian in the same party.
I’ll be interested to see how many burst heals get wasted on classes with yoyo like health pools right as they heal themselves.
Apologies if this has been said a thousand times or its been pointed out, but I haven’t had the time to read the whole thread and wanted to share my thoughts.
I think you guys who believe that Anet is enforcing a strict trinity are reading too much into this. This is a very loose based trinity and not a strict one. Firstly, all classes (or at least a majority of them) have been able to heal their allies since launch. The issue was that the content wasn’t difficult enough that you never needed to role a very supportive build. Now that there will be, the demand for those builds will rise.
In traditional MMO’s, trinities are rigid. They don’t change. The encounters are designed to have a tank to aggro the mobs while the healers have low cooldown clickable heals. There is also the fact that other classes can’t heal themselves, so you result in a encounter where there is only one person who can heal others (or multiple people who can heal)and they can only heal and deal no damage. They don’t have any damage.
In case all of you missed this: there are no target-able heals in this game. You have to aim everything. Better yet, there are no low cooldown spells that heal for 2/3 of your health. The lowest CD heal spells don’t heal for all of your health in that one quick cast. This means that for a healing role to be viable they must actively run around healing the team, while not getting killed. Here’s another caveat to GW2 that half of you seem to be forgetting: there is weapon swapping! You can, believe it or not, swap weapons and suddenly do damage! It’s like people forget this is in the game. Just because you spec as a druid doesn’t mean all you will be doing is healing, you can actually switch to a damage weapon and fight on the front lines when everyone is relatively high health, then switch back if need be.
Plus, the fact that all classes can already heal themselves means that this “trinity” where we will be waiting for 2 hours for a healer won’t happen. Anet has told us multiple times that they don’t want that to be a part of their game. GW2 support won’t be the babysititer of the group, considering that spells will only hit 5 targets max and even then there are no reliable, sustained heals on any class. This means that the support role of GW2 will be an a character that supports the team alongside fighting them; not just healing them!
Anet is attempting to incentivise picking other builds besides damage. This is not an attempt to establish a trinity. They are not forcing you to queue for a raid as a specific role such as in other MMO’s. You can run a raid as an all damage group and still be able to keep yourselves alive. Anet are simply pushing for the “soft trinity” that they have always wanted to have, which is a good thing.
(edited by Zelkovan.2630)
To be fair I would LOVE some sort of trinity. Maybe not the old trinity everyone got bored of. But in an action combat based game like gw2 having a trinity-ish system would certainly be interesting.
i already tried it in tera.
playing solo was highly entertaining, playing in groups was boring and sleep inducing (comparitively) Because the amount of attention i had to pay to not getting hit, or mitigation was low (tank holds aggro) and i didnt really have to worry about my hp much even taking regular unavoidable type dmg, because the healer was healing it.and that game was designed from the ground up to support a trinity. I dont think gw2 will implement a more compelling trinity style with a few tweaks.
To be fair, GW2 & tera combat are very diffirent.
And how much attention do you have to pay in GW2 to not getting hit if everyone just bursts everything down in a few seconds and if you down, you get back ressed up in less than 3seconds?I’m not saying the whole tank, heal, dps trinity should come to GW2. But some sort of teamwork & roles would be really nice so not everyone is just another DPS.
Let’s say Druids become the meta healers. They can’t burst heals constantly to keep everyone alive, they can save people with some burst heals but once it runs out they won’t be able to keep up the idiots who just stand in aoes or just facetank bosses.
Support should be support and not babysit people who get caught by every single attack.
That’s going to be interesting if you have a druid and an offensive meditation guardian in the same party.
I’ll be interested to see how many burst heals get wasted on classes with yoyo like health pools right as they heal themselves.
The first three staff skills on the Druid are pretty spamable and I’d bet that Solar Beam counts as 3 heals when it comes to keeping the celestial bar filled.
The healing won’t be much more than what was shown to us unless Healing Power gets a rework, but the heals look pretty rapid.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
(edited by Substance E.4852)
Anet is attempting to incentivise picking other builds besides damage. This is not an attempt to establish a trinity. They are not forcing you to queue for a raid as a specific role such as in other MMO’s. You can run a raid as an all damage group and still be able to keep yourselves alive. Anet are simply pushing for the “soft trinity” that they have always wanted to have, which is a good thing.
The proof will be in the pudding. The player-base (particularly the ever-evolving PuG meta) will determine how necessary healers are to be. The only influence Anet will have is to provide the specs to heal —which they are apparently doing -- and determine how hard the raids are. If the raid is completed better (i.e., faster) with a healer, then a healer will be deemed necessary. Also, only the best healer will do. Tune the raids really hard, and no group will be able to do them without the best healer.
The proof will be in the pudding. The player-base (particularly the ever-evolving PuG meta) will determine how necessary healers are to be. The only influence Anet will have is to provide the specs to heal —which they are apparently doing -- and determine how hard the raids are. If the raid is completed better (i.e., faster) with a healer, then a healer will be deemed necessary. Also, only the best healer will do. Tune the raids really hard, and no group will be able to do them without the best healer.
Which I agree. The necessity for a healer will be determined by the player base. If we can do it without a healer then it won’t be a demand. If its easier with a healer then they may be somewhat needed but not necessary. If its impossible without a healer then they will be required.
I have faith though that the raids will be tuned so that you can run any comp. Obviously some will be deemed better than others, but I doubt it will be forced to run with a druid or something of the sorts.
The thing is, even if you DO need a healer, healing in this game is very moment-to-moment. You can have a healer, sure, but he needs to land his heals on you (because they aren’t click ons) and you have to make sure you are in sync with the healer. It’s not like WoW where the healers just sit in the back and click on portraits to heal. In this game you need to not only be closer to the healer but also aware where he is throwing down the heals, because if you roll out of the zone there goes that 1.6k hp back. There’s also the fact that every class can still heal themselves, dodging is still a thing and many of the classes have abilities that mitigate damage.
There are no issues with having a druid or another spec that is focused on healing. Now if the only way to beat a raid is to have a druid/healing REQUIRED, then yes, it is a failure on the part of ANET.
Could be more like " Its Optimal to run one or two Guys who can Support through healing but you still can get this done without it like everything else"
Won’t stop Ppl telling that it would be the only Way to do it
Yeah I am fine with that as long as it isn’t the ONLY way to beat a raid.
Well, the community obviously wants trinity, and people just don’t actually take the effort to think. Most people who complain about the stacking/zerk/dps/whatever keyword meta have never been in a dungeon anyway. They don’t know that you can do dungeons with your special snowflake build and have fun doing it. If you want to do a dungeon just by using retaliation to kill enemies, go for it.
Just because the most optimal way is a different one you should not be upset and do it your way.
they tried without trinity, it sucked. theyre bringing it back, people are happy.
What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.
And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?
I’m just saying that it’s severely disappointing to me when an MMO decides to abandon one of their selling points years later. It really feels like a slap to the face to those that bought the game for those reasons that they advertised then.
That is false.
They advertised “soft trinity” composed of DPS / Support / Control, which was supposed to be necessary in order to complete content in an optimal manner whereas groups not using it would be sub-optimal but still able to complete it, but they failed. In fact, about a month ago or so, one of the live twitch videos, or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
I do not have a link because at the time I just didn’t think I would want to use one, but you can google if it means a lot to you.
Looks like the new content is taking the exact direction they originally intended, where groups using all 3 elements will be optimal, those that don’t won’t.
Also do not forget that to achieve support or control you only need to have a single trait line on some people dedicated to it on some people and MANY do enjoy or already provide such, for example virtue guards or water on eles just for starters. To have more options in this area is good, these trait lines are already widely used in the game in MANY places, the only place they aren’t used in is in the “zerker only” LFGs.
So the new system and encounters will be inclusive of many more people then those that might leave because its not zerker. I’m good with that. Don’t let the door hit them…
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
the design flaw is that zerker builds can evade damage with skilled use of dodge roll, not lack of trinity
or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
the design flaw is that zerker builds can evade damage with skilled use of dodge roll, not lack of trinity
Being skilled is a flaw?
or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
the design flaw is that zerker builds can evade damage with skilled use of dodge roll, not lack of trinity
Being skilled is a flaw?
Yes, because apparently it takes skill to stand in damage and live through it by having toughness or being healed by some druid spamming heals on you. Watching the boss and aoe circles and dodging… that’s a flaw.
I am definitely not interested in these discussions about whether or not a game changing over time is betrayal or other such nonsense, but I’ve been seeing some frankly alarmingly wrong arguments being made in these types of threads and I can’t sit by and watch people spout them anymore.
To everyone saying corner stacking or face tank stacking is a hallmark of trinity mmos: you’re embarrassing yourself. As a long time veteran of mmos like WoW, Rift, FF14, and more, that is practically never true. Stacking literally only happens when there’s an environmental/boss mechanic that requires it or a damaging aoe is so specific that everyone needs to stand in one spot, lest they die. Other than that, no one is stacking. Everyone is moving around to avoid attacks, or to get a better vantage point, or even just for the hell of it. Yes, some melee classes will be standing near each other on the boss but I mean come on, that’s the definition of the word melee. Saying that stacking is not only prevalent within but a hallmark of trinity mmos is complete bs. Hate the trinity all you want; that’s fine, that’s cool. I don’t blame you and you’re entitled to your opinion. But if you truly think that corner stacking is just as commonplace in other mmos and isn’t a problem pretty exclusive to GW2, you’re just lying, whether on purpose or accident.
The other thing I’ve seen is people saying you’ll need multiple sets of ascended gear, which will be prohibitively expensive. Please. Once again, anyone who has hardcore played any mmo besides this one will know that is so unlikely it’s laughable. Not impossible, mind you—Perhaps I will come to eat these words, and if so, I’ll be the first to admit it—but considering what game we’re playing, it’s downright implausible.
Here is why: in WoW, for instance, there are not only normal 10-person raids, there are hard mode versions of said raids. Aptly named too, because depending on the raid holy crap would it be hard. And yet even despite what a ridiculous gear grind WoW was, you could still do this content, easily even, in sub-optimal gear. Sure, there were limits. At a certain point if you lacked too much armor you couldn’t tank properly, the healer couldn’t keep you alive, you’d die, and the party would wipe. Still though, you needed to have pretty bad gear for something to be outright impossible as a result. What does this have to do with GW2? As many people in many threads before me have pointed out, ascended gear increases your effectiveness by basically 5% (maybe, it depends on your build, even). That’s nothing. Seriously, that’s nothing. That 5% is not going to make or break anyone’s ability to fill any role. If WoW (which has in the past proven itself to have infinitely more challenging PvE content than GW2) allows for such large discrepancies in what is the best gear and what is necessary gear, I have a really, really hard time believing GW2 is going to suddenly jump up in difficulty so much that 5% will be the difference between victory and failure. Besides, if it’s that scary to you just get the ascended trinkets and stuff. Goodness knows getting full ascended trinkets is easy as pie and accounts for around 40% of stat benefit on equipment anyway.
That is all. Once again, I’m not here to say that people who hate the trinity and games that include it are wrong, or vice-versa. Please stop using these arguments though. One of them is outright, factually incorrect, and the other is highly implausible.
or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
the design flaw is that zerker builds can evade damage with skilled use of dodge roll, not lack of trinity
Being skilled is a flaw?
Yes, because apparently it takes skill to stand in damage and live through it by having toughness or being healed by some druid spamming heals on you. Watching the boss and aoe circles and dodging… that’s a flaw.
I love people who kitten on trinity who clearly have never played a trinity based game or frankly any other MMO besides GW2.
Truly experts in your chosen field.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
ArenaNet promised us no trinity and… here we are. Trinity. If I wanted that I could just go back and play WoW. This was supposed to be different.
“Those who go mad are merely thoughtful souls who failed to reach any conclusions.”
or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
the design flaw is that zerker builds can evade damage with skilled use of dodge roll, not lack of trinity
Being skilled is a flaw?
Yes, because apparently it takes skill to stand in damage and live through it by having toughness or being healed by some druid spamming heals on you. Watching the boss and aoe circles and dodging… that’s a flaw.
I love people who kitten on trinity who clearly have never played a trinity based game or frankly any other MMO besides GW2.
Truly experts in your chosen field.
Who said i did not play a trinity based game? I did my fair share of tanking, healing, dpsing. It’s actually not any better.
or some post by A-Net dev specifically stated that the whole “zerker meta” is a result of an overall design flaw within the game.
the design flaw is that zerker builds can evade damage with skilled use of dodge roll, not lack of trinity
Being skilled is a flaw?
Yes, because apparently it takes skill to stand in damage and live through it by having toughness or being healed by some druid spamming heals on you. Watching the boss and aoe circles and dodging… that’s a flaw.
I love people who kitten on trinity who clearly have never played a trinity based game or frankly any other MMO besides GW2.
Truly experts in your chosen field.
Who said i did not play a trinity based game? I did my fair share of tanking, healing, dpsing. It’s actually not any better.
Then you know that most other games also involve moving out of red circles and instagib zones even when they do have very strict tank and spank trinity.
You also know that the game doesn’t have a controllable aggro system to even tank. All the nomad gear and druid heals in the world won’t matter if the boss wanders away and attacks your zerk ele for “reasons”.
People who cry that the sky is falling and that this is somehow the antithesis of Anet’s Quicktime Event “press x to not die” pve style either don’t know what they are talking about or are being intentionally disingenuous.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
As many people in many threads before me have pointed out, ascended gear increases your effectiveness by basically 5% (maybe, it depends on your build, even). That’s nothing. Seriously, that’s nothing. That 5% is not going to make or break anyone’s ability to fill any role.
It definately depends on your build, for power builds, he difference is much greater than 5%.
The only difference between the two is that one is in full ascended, the other in full exotics. Maximum might and fury will be assumed despite not necessarily happening all the time, which dilutes the differences between the two.
Power type damage is a function of multiples, so, comparing one skill to itself is sufficient to compare every skill.
Mind slash does 728 damage base for the exotic user, and 824 for the ascended user. This is a gain of 96 damage, a 13% increase on the exotic user’s damage before factoring critical hits.
Additionally, crit chance for the ascended user is higher, 76.43% v s 70.14%.
and ferocity is also higher, 220.73% crit damage vs 216.6% crit damage.
728+(728*.7014*2.166) = 1834.00
824+(824*.7643*2.2073) = 2214.12
2214.12-1834= 380.
380/1834 = 20.726
With the only difference being ascended vs exotic gear, and assuming permanently maintained buffs that dilute the impact of ascended’s bonus stats somewhat, ascended gear is over a 20% increase on exotics.
If you take away the permanently maintained buffs, you end up with 568 vs 648 base damage and 50.14% crit chance vs 56.43% crit chance. Ferocity is unchanged.
568+(568*.5014*2.166) = 1184.87
648+(648*.5643*2.2073) = 1455.14
1455.14-1184.87 = 270.27
270.27/1184.87 = .227097128
Without buffs, ascended gear ends up giving a 22.71% damage increase on exotics for power builds.
Based on the current DPS rankings, at item level 720 (The best approximation for current tier raiding)‘s realistic values, the only specs that would need more than 22.71% damage buff in order to match the highest are specs that aren’t meant to be played in single target encounters (2handed frost is being phased out entirely, arms warrior and combat rogue are dedicated AoE specs)
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#720,real,1
The difference is even greater than the difference between “We nerfed demonology because we don’t want people playing it” and the survival hunters that were notorious for having their spec completely broken due to the fixing of a bug that they had been balanced around. The specs of which only 0.3% and 0.1% respectively have killed a single mythic boss.
This isn’t even considering the benefits of the extra armour that ascended gear provides, because trying to estimate how much more dps uptime it would gain you is heavily based on the player, but even if the armor were irrelevant, a 22.71% damage boost is very significant.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
they tried without trinity, it sucked. theyre bringing it back, people are happy.
The trinity has always been in the game just there was no real need for 2/3 of it because of encounter design.
As many people in many threads before me have pointed out, ascended gear increases your effectiveness by basically 5% (maybe, it depends on your build, even). That’s nothing. Seriously, that’s nothing. That 5% is not going to make or break anyone’s ability to fill any role.
It definately depends on your build, for power builds, he difference is much greater than 5%.
The only difference between the two is that one is in full ascended, the other in full exotics. Maximum might and fury will be assumed despite not necessarily happening all the time, which dilutes the differences between the two.
Power type damage is a function of multiples, so, comparing one skill to itself is sufficient to compare every skill.
Mind slash does 728 damage base for the exotic user, and 824 for the ascended user. This is a gain of 96 damage, a 13% increase on the exotic user’s damage before factoring critical hits.
Additionally, crit chance for the ascended user is higher, 76.43% v s 70.14%.
and ferocity is also higher, 220.73% crit damage vs 216.6% crit damage.
728+(728*.7014*2.166) = 1834.00
824+(824*.7643*2.2073) = 2214.122214.12-1834= 380.
380/1834 = 20.726
With the only difference being ascended vs exotic gear, and assuming permanently maintained buffs that dilute the impact of ascended’s bonus stats somewhat, ascended gear is over a 20% increase on exotics.
If you take away the permanently maintained buffs, you end up with 568 vs 648 base damage and 50.14% crit chance vs 56.43% crit chance. Ferocity is unchanged.
568+(568*.5014*2.166) = 1184.87
648+(648*.5643*2.2073) = 1455.141455.14-1184.87 = 270.27
270.27/1184.87 = .227097128Without buffs, ascended gear ends up giving a 22.71% damage increase on exotics for power builds.
Based on the current DPS rankings, at item level 720 (The best approximation for current tier raiding)‘s realistic values, the only specs that would need more than 22.71% damage buff in order to match the highest are specs that aren’t meant to be played in single target encounters (2handed frost is being phased out entirely, arms warrior and combat rogue are dedicated AoE specs)
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#720,real,1
The difference is even greater than the difference between “We nerfed demonology because we don’t want people playing it” and the survival hunters that were notorious for having their spec completely broken due to the fixing of a bug that they had been balanced around. The specs of which only 0.3% and 0.1% respectively have killed a single mythic boss.
This isn’t even considering the benefits of the extra armour that ascended gear provides, because trying to estimate how much more dps uptime it would gain you is heavily based on the player, but even if the armor were irrelevant, a 22.71% damage boost is very significant.
Would you mind showing me your math for how you came up with the base damage of mind slash for your attacks? Forgive my ignorance, but my calculations are not the same as yours at all. As near as I can tell 2756 power is only around 3.5% higher than 2664 power, so how that equals an increase in damage (not factoring in crits at all of course) around 13% I cannot tell. Even with the higher average that an ascended weapon has over an exotic one, the increase in direct, unmodified damage only seems to be around 8% at most. Which is higher than my calculations for sure, but it doesn’t seem to gel with yours.
Please stop including the word “we” in your arguments. You might not want more than 1 role in the game, but plenty of other people do, trinity or not.
Having many roles available is a good thing. Making some of those roles required is not.
I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.
I have been running a knight/cleric hybrid AH guardian in dungeons for over 2 years now, both in guild groups and pugs. Yeah, it’s not as efficient as zerker, but i find it more fun. Never seen a need to switch to dps, never seen someone that would complain (and i’m not hiding what build i run). Yeah, the “all zerk” groups are closed for me So what? There’s aways plenty of all-inclusive ones around.
No, zerk is not mandatory at all.
This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that.
What if i don’t have any such friend? What if we have enough people for 2 raid groups, but volunteer druids for only one? What if the only person that still continues to play ranger against all the problems thic class had throughout the years, is someone that does that only because they like the Ranger (not druid) playstyle?
The numbers of people liking to play healer have always been on the low side, even in trinity games. In GW2, after 3 years of not having trinity and no dedicated healer role, those numbers are likely even smaller.
…also, if that hypothetical friend of mine was unable to dodge properly before, they wound’t be a good choice for support/heal role. When a required healer gets oneshotted because they didn’t dodge fast enough, things are likely to end up really badly for all the remaining players that depended on that healing.
I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.
I am not a speed runner, not by a long shot, and yet i don’t feel so optimistic about the future as you are.
If the trinity is lazy & unoriginal… then what is a group full of zerker dps classes doing the same thing?
Both are equally lazy. the difference? Latter is a lazinesss by choice, while former is a laziness required.
Being skilled is a flaw?
No. having defensive passive stats in a game where devense is mostly revolving about active binary actions that when performed well negate the whole damage (and are not based on said passives), is a flaw.
Basically, Anet dried to mix two incompatible systems, only to find out that they are still incompatible.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
As many people in many threads before me have pointed out, ascended gear increases your effectiveness by basically 5% (maybe, it depends on your build, even). That’s nothing. Seriously, that’s nothing. That 5% is not going to make or break anyone’s ability to fill any role.
It definately depends on your build, for power builds, he difference is much greater than 5%.
The only difference between the two is that one is in full ascended, the other in full exotics. Maximum might and fury will be assumed despite not necessarily happening all the time, which dilutes the differences between the two.
Power type damage is a function of multiples, so, comparing one skill to itself is sufficient to compare every skill.
Mind slash does 728 damage base for the exotic user, and 824 for the ascended user. This is a gain of 96 damage, a 13% increase on the exotic user’s damage before factoring critical hits.
Additionally, crit chance for the ascended user is higher, 76.43% v s 70.14%.
and ferocity is also higher, 220.73% crit damage vs 216.6% crit damage.
728+(728*.7014*2.166) = 1834.00
824+(824*.7643*2.2073) = 2214.122214.12-1834= 380.
380/1834 = 20.726
With the only difference being ascended vs exotic gear, and assuming permanently maintained buffs that dilute the impact of ascended’s bonus stats somewhat, ascended gear is over a 20% increase on exotics.
If you take away the permanently maintained buffs, you end up with 568 vs 648 base damage and 50.14% crit chance vs 56.43% crit chance. Ferocity is unchanged.
568+(568*.5014*2.166) = 1184.87
648+(648*.5643*2.2073) = 1455.141455.14-1184.87 = 270.27
270.27/1184.87 = .227097128Without buffs, ascended gear ends up giving a 22.71% damage increase on exotics for power builds.
Based on the current DPS rankings, at item level 720 (The best approximation for current tier raiding)‘s realistic values, the only specs that would need more than 22.71% damage buff in order to match the highest are specs that aren’t meant to be played in single target encounters (2handed frost is being phased out entirely, arms warrior and combat rogue are dedicated AoE specs)
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#720,real,1
The difference is even greater than the difference between “We nerfed demonology because we don’t want people playing it” and the survival hunters that were notorious for having their spec completely broken due to the fixing of a bug that they had been balanced around. The specs of which only 0.3% and 0.1% respectively have killed a single mythic boss.
This isn’t even considering the benefits of the extra armour that ascended gear provides, because trying to estimate how much more dps uptime it would gain you is heavily based on the player, but even if the armor were irrelevant, a 22.71% damage boost is very significant.
Would you mind showing me your math for how you came up with the base damage of mind slash for your attacks? Forgive my ignorance, but my calculations are not the same as yours at all. As near as I can tell 2756 power is only around 3.5% higher than 2664 power, so how that equals an increase in damage (not factoring in crits at all of course) around 13% I cannot tell. Even with the higher average that an ascended weapon has over an exotic one, the increase in direct, unmodified damage only seems to be around 8% at most. Which is higher than my calculations for sure, but it doesn’t seem to gel with yours.
Mainly, those are the values that the build planner came out with. Oh, I see the issue. When I changed the weapons to exotic, it also removed the sigils. The actual values once corrected were 764 with might, and around an 8% increase before critical hits became a factor.
Critical hit percentages remain the same, as sigil of accuracy wasn’t used for:
1924.69 for exotic instead using the same formulae, just substituting the corrected base value.
Making it a difference of (2214.12-1924.69)/1924.69 = a little over 15%, assuming buffs that reduce the impact somewhat.
With the no buff value sitting at close to exactly 17%.
While not quite as awful, a 15% damage boost is nothing to scoff at. Mesmers take an entire trait line for that sort of damage increase (The main reason domination is taken in PvE are the 15% illusion damage and the 12.5% personal damage increase, as you’ll rarely shatter, don’t use a greatsword, defiance makes interrupts rare, and signets are less than amazing)
The change results in it actually beating out a spec that isn’t officially acknowledged as being completely broken (Unholy death knights) in single target (Though it still loses to it in multiple target).
(edited by Eponet.4829)
As many people in many threads before me have pointed out, ascended gear increases your effectiveness by basically 5% (maybe, it depends on your build, even). That’s nothing. Seriously, that’s nothing. That 5% is not going to make or break anyone’s ability to fill any role.
It definately depends on your build, for power builds, he difference is much greater than 5%.
The only difference between the two is that one is in full ascended, the other in full exotics. Maximum might and fury will be assumed despite not necessarily happening all the time, which dilutes the differences between the two.
Power type damage is a function of multiples, so, comparing one skill to itself is sufficient to compare every skill.
Mind slash does 728 damage base for the exotic user, and 824 for the ascended user. This is a gain of 96 damage, a 13% increase on the exotic user’s damage before factoring critical hits.
Additionally, crit chance for the ascended user is higher, 76.43% v s 70.14%.
and ferocity is also higher, 220.73% crit damage vs 216.6% crit damage.
728+(728*.7014*2.166) = 1834.00
824+(824*.7643*2.2073) = 2214.122214.12-1834= 380.
380/1834 = 20.726
With the only difference being ascended vs exotic gear, and assuming permanently maintained buffs that dilute the impact of ascended’s bonus stats somewhat, ascended gear is over a 20% increase on exotics.
If you take away the permanently maintained buffs, you end up with 568 vs 648 base damage and 50.14% crit chance vs 56.43% crit chance. Ferocity is unchanged.
568+(568*.5014*2.166) = 1184.87
648+(648*.5643*2.2073) = 1455.141455.14-1184.87 = 270.27
270.27/1184.87 = .227097128Without buffs, ascended gear ends up giving a 22.71% damage increase on exotics for power builds.
Based on the current DPS rankings, at item level 720 (The best approximation for current tier raiding)‘s realistic values, the only specs that would need more than 22.71% damage buff in order to match the highest are specs that aren’t meant to be played in single target encounters (2handed frost is being phased out entirely, arms warrior and combat rogue are dedicated AoE specs)
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#720,real,1
The difference is even greater than the difference between “We nerfed demonology because we don’t want people playing it” and the survival hunters that were notorious for having their spec completely broken due to the fixing of a bug that they had been balanced around. The specs of which only 0.3% and 0.1% respectively have killed a single mythic boss.
This isn’t even considering the benefits of the extra armour that ascended gear provides, because trying to estimate how much more dps uptime it would gain you is heavily based on the player, but even if the armor were irrelevant, a 22.71% damage boost is very significant.
Would you mind showing me your math for how you came up with the base damage of mind slash for your attacks? Forgive my ignorance, but my calculations are not the same as yours at all. As near as I can tell 2756 power is only around 3.5% higher than 2664 power, so how that equals an increase in damage (not factoring in crits at all of course) around 13% I cannot tell. Even with the higher average that an ascended weapon has over an exotic one, the increase in direct, unmodified damage only seems to be around 8% at most. Which is higher than my calculations for sure, but it doesn’t seem to gel with yours.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQNAR8MA-TRROwAjU+BY/Bi6GAr+jMlgBAQA+tvx38Nw5Nv5Nv5NP38m38m38mBA-e
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQNAR8MA-ThRDgAJKB7V+9q+D7+Dg6GAM/BA-e
looking at mirror blade i see
2352/2096 112% dmg boost for full ascended and infusions
i dont believe that includes ferocity or crit
As many people in many threads before me have pointed out, ascended gear increases your effectiveness by basically 5% (maybe, it depends on your build, even). That’s nothing. Seriously, that’s nothing. That 5% is not going to make or break anyone’s ability to fill any role.
It definately depends on your build, for power builds, he difference is much greater than 5%.
The only difference between the two is that one is in full ascended, the other in full exotics. Maximum might and fury will be assumed despite not necessarily happening all the time, which dilutes the differences between the two.
Power type damage is a function of multiples, so, comparing one skill to itself is sufficient to compare every skill.
Mind slash does 728 damage base for the exotic user, and 824 for the ascended user. This is a gain of 96 damage, a 13% increase on the exotic user’s damage before factoring critical hits.
Additionally, crit chance for the ascended user is higher, 76.43% v s 70.14%.
and ferocity is also higher, 220.73% crit damage vs 216.6% crit damage.
728+(728*.7014*2.166) = 1834.00
824+(824*.7643*2.2073) = 2214.122214.12-1834= 380.
380/1834 = 20.726
With the only difference being ascended vs exotic gear, and assuming permanently maintained buffs that dilute the impact of ascended’s bonus stats somewhat, ascended gear is over a 20% increase on exotics.
If you take away the permanently maintained buffs, you end up with 568 vs 648 base damage and 50.14% crit chance vs 56.43% crit chance. Ferocity is unchanged.
568+(568*.5014*2.166) = 1184.87
648+(648*.5643*2.2073) = 1455.141455.14-1184.87 = 270.27
270.27/1184.87 = .227097128Without buffs, ascended gear ends up giving a 22.71% damage increase on exotics for power builds.
Based on the current DPS rankings, at item level 720 (The best approximation for current tier raiding)‘s realistic values, the only specs that would need more than 22.71% damage buff in order to match the highest are specs that aren’t meant to be played in single target encounters (2handed frost is being phased out entirely, arms warrior and combat rogue are dedicated AoE specs)
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings#720,real,1
The difference is even greater than the difference between “We nerfed demonology because we don’t want people playing it” and the survival hunters that were notorious for having their spec completely broken due to the fixing of a bug that they had been balanced around. The specs of which only 0.3% and 0.1% respectively have killed a single mythic boss.
This isn’t even considering the benefits of the extra armour that ascended gear provides, because trying to estimate how much more dps uptime it would gain you is heavily based on the player, but even if the armor were irrelevant, a 22.71% damage boost is very significant.
Would you mind showing me your math for how you came up with the base damage of mind slash for your attacks? Forgive my ignorance, but my calculations are not the same as yours at all. As near as I can tell 2756 power is only around 3.5% higher than 2664 power, so how that equals an increase in damage (not factoring in crits at all of course) around 13% I cannot tell. Even with the higher average that an ascended weapon has over an exotic one, the increase in direct, unmodified damage only seems to be around 8% at most. Which is higher than my calculations for sure, but it doesn’t seem to gel with yours.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQNAR8MA-TRROwAjU+BY/Bi6GAr+jMlgBAQA+tvx38Nw5Nv5Nv5NP38m38m38mBA-e
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQNAR8MA-ThRDgAJKB7V+9q+D7+Dg6GAM/BA-e
looking at mirror blade i see
2352/2096 112% dmg boost for full ascended and infusionsi dont believe that includes ferocity or crit
I made a mistake and didn’t notice that switching the ascended weapon to exotics removed the sigil until I actively looked for an explaination. They’re right, the base damage increase is actually around 8% with buffs, going up to around 15% with crits factored in, 17% without relying on 25 stacks of might and fury.
15-17% is still a huge difference though.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
I am definitely not interested in these discussions about whether or not a game changing over time is betrayal or other such nonsense, but I’ve been seeing some frankly alarmingly wrong arguments being made in these types of threads and I can’t sit by and watch people spout them anymore.
To everyone saying corner stacking or face tank stacking is a hallmark of trinity mmos: you’re embarrassing yourself. As a long time veteran of mmos like WoW, Rift, FF14, and more, that is practically never true. Stacking literally only happens when there’s an environmental/boss mechanic that requires it or a damaging aoe is so specific that everyone needs to stand in one spot, lest they die. Other than that, no one is stacking. Everyone is moving around to avoid attacks, or to get a better vantage point, or even just for the hell of it. Yes, some melee classes will be standing near each other on the boss but I mean come on, that’s the definition of the word melee. Saying that stacking is not only prevalent within but a hallmark of trinity mmos is complete bs. Hate the trinity all you want; that’s fine, that’s cool. I don’t blame you and you’re entitled to your opinion. But if you truly think that corner stacking is just as commonplace in other mmos and isn’t a problem pretty exclusive to GW2, you’re just lying, whether on purpose or accident.
So much +1.
As for the debate about multiple sets of gear, if they add raids, the raid bosses will no doubt drop gear that is ascended equivalent, much like how raids operate in other games (the hardest bosses drop the best gear). So having multiple sets will be a bit of a pain, but nothing like the pain people are imagining from the current ascended grind.
Or words to that effect.
Please stop including the word “we” in your arguments. You might not want more than 1 role in the game, but plenty of other people do, trinity or not.
Having many roles available is a good thing. Making some of those roles required is not.
I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.
I have been running a knight/cleric hybrid AH guardian in dungeons for over 2 years now, both in guild groups and pugs. Yeah, it’s not as efficient as zerker, but i find it more fun. Never seen a need to switch to dps, never seen someone that would complain (and i’m not hiding what build i run). Yeah, the “all zerk” groups are closed for me So what? There’s aways plenty of all-inclusive ones around.
No, zerk is not mandatory at all.This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that.
What if i don’t have any such friend? What if we have enough people for 2 raid groups, but volunteer druids for only one? What if the only person that still continues to play ranger against all the problems thic class had throughout the years, is someone that does that only because they like the Ranger (not druid) playstyle?
The numbers of people liking to play healer have always been on the low side, even in trinity games. In GW2, after 3 years of not having trinity and no dedicated healer role, those numbers are likely even smaller.
…also, if that hypothetical friend of mine was unable to dodge properly before, they wound’t be a good choice for support/heal role. When a required healer gets oneshotted because they didn’t dodge fast enough, things are likely to end up really badly for all the remaining players that depended on that healing.
I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.
I am not a speed runner, not by a long shot, and yet i don’t feel so optimistic about the future as you are.
If the trinity is lazy & unoriginal… then what is a group full of zerker dps classes doing the same thing?
Both are equally lazy. the difference? Latter is a lazinesss by choice, while former is a laziness required.
Being skilled is a flaw?
No. having defensive passive stats in a game where devense is mostly revolving about active binary actions that when performed well negate the whole damage (and are not based on said passives), is a flaw.
Basically, Anet dried to mix two incompatible systems, only to find out that they are still incompatible.
I don´t run zerk characters either. But many people do, despite not being comfortable with it as can be seen how they play their characters even after years of practice. And on top of that, isn´t it the purpose of Nomad, Cleric and Apothecary to get hit then and when and weather it out?
Let me give you an example of DAOC for the ranger friend:
In Avalon City, you had casual groups everywhere. There were two healers, the monk and the cleric. The cleric was a bunker healer mit strong heals, the monk a soso healer. Monk was shunned, cleric was looked for, business as intended. And even then, 10 years ago, people changed to their clerics to help their friends out for leveling in Avalon City.
So if you so insist on having a certain healer class or simply need one, why is it hard to find the good guy that is willing to do from your ranks? Are you not all looking for the hard content that makes you act as a team, or are you just a bunch of solo achievers that need other solo achievers for the content and don´t want to compromise on anything? He does not miss out on loot, it has not always to be the same guy, his friends will like him even more. Is it really so hard for your friend or you to be the good guy for just one evening? If you continue to bugger him for it everytime you want to raid so that you can stay on your kickbutt warrior, the fault for angering him is entirely yours.
Raiders have to make a desicion:
Am I here to get the loot and be a team player, or am I here to gloat and play with MY character only, no matter the cost or if it is as the expense of others. If you are of the later kind you have already wasted time just by reading this and, in my opinion, deserve to wait for your raid to start.
Hopefully, there will be enough of the players that waxed nostalgic about the joys of tanking or healing that a lot of groups will have options. There night be a big problem with PUG’s, though. One of the issues with PuG’s is wanting to fit something into one’s playtime. If healers/tanks are necessary or are deemed necessary, then there will be waiting, unless there are a kitten-load of them. If wait times are high, there will be some backlash.
As for me, I’d have no problems trying to play a healer, though I’ve never done so in this type of game. I’ve little interest in tanking. What I’m especially not interested in, though, is making and carrying 3-4 sets of gear. If, as I suspect, that turns out to be expected, I doubt I’ll be involved.
So if you so insist on having a certain healer class or simply need one, why is it hard to find the good guy that is willing to do from your ranks? Are you not all looking for the hard content that makes you act as a team, or are you just a bunch of solo achievers that need other solo achievers for the content and don´t want to compromise on anything?
You are speaking about team spirit, but at the end it’s still the same – someone is being forced into playing the healer. Rotating it will not change this, and run the additional risk of the healers ending up with no experience (after all, to be good at playing the class/build, you do need to play it a lot). And of course many players will simply not have the classes or gear for heal specs.
Besides, what you speak of is equally true in all the other games, where there are most likely more people, percentage wise, that like to play healers. And yet in those games there’s always a deficit of healers and tanks. You may speak about some vaunted ideas that you consider positive (even if in truth they just glorify making people unhappy), but they don’t seem to hold in reality.
Raiders have to make a desicion:
Am I here to get the loot and be a team player, or am I here to gloat and play with MY character only, no matter the cost or if it is as the expense of others.
From what i saw among dedicated raiders the second mindset is the default one. Just look at the discussion about exclusive rewards in the other thread.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November