Guild Wars 2

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

I highlighted the most important part. It was for me. It really was.

In every single other MMO I don’t play what I want, I play what is needed. I play what will be useful for my team. Except in this one. Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted. Heck I even climbed the fractal ladder up until 50 on my necro, and people don’t really like necros normally. But necros, just like anyone else, could deal damage and it was up to player to execute the mechanics properly, so you didn’t lose too much from taking one into your group.

So you’re right. It’s not a major selling point for all. But it is for some. So I don’t approve 180 your design choice 3 years into the game.

For the most part I get your sentiment, really I do. If the whole no roles thing was a big thing for me, then I’d be upset too.

Mirta.5029:

Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted.

And this is the problem, you really didn’t choose what you wanted, you we’re just some variant of damage. The game as it is only rewards you for going damage specs in PvE. Sure you can use any class you want to do it, but you are most certainly relegated to being dps in same form of the other, otherwise you are effectively holding the team back.

And I guess this is where we differ. I don’t necessarily want for the game to have a trinity specifically, I just want a system where everyone isn’t just dps that spam all their buttons in every situation and win.

if what you wanted to play, requires everyone else to get punched in the face for no reason, i dont think they should force everyone else to get punched in the face.

Id be ok if the dmg wasnt because it was impossible to avoid, just that it takes high skill, but thats basically the game as it was before, except made more difficult.

but that doesnt seem to be what we will get

Mirta.5029:

Torolan.5816:

but good guys sometimes take one for the team.

that’s kind of the point. It’s a thing that I had to do in all MMOs and the reason why I liked this one is because I didn’t need to do it here. Essentially you’re saying “you can no longer play the way that you want to play, but it’s okay because I always wanted to heal”. In fact it’s not okay at all.

You can not play the way you want? Why? You don´t have to be the one that changes characters. If you are the one that changes to the healer it´s your choice.
Try reading that again with the thought that this is exactly what is told non-zerkers for years at this point and if you, the good guy in this case, have any guilt to bear for it or if the accusations leveled at you for being a selfish “I want to play my way” guy are maybe uncalled for.

Raids are either a group experience that are together to have fun in which case it is not important who plays what, or a bunch of elitists who want to play their way at all costs.

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?

I’m just saying that it’s severely disappointing to me when an MMO decides to abandon one of their selling points years later. It really feels like a slap to the face to those that bought the game for those reasons that they advertised then.

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

What would you have them do, stick with the old system? That won’t work. Improve the old system? They’ve had 3 years to do that. There is no point in you deciding to take their decision as a personal offense, you either adapt too, or at least wait to try the system before you start complaining. Right now it seems your just whining because things aren’t how you like them.

Here’s the catch -the old system where you add gear and healing as you need them and if you’re good enough you can mitigate everything could have worked with raids but in order for raids to still be hard it would have meant that raids would have had to be made incredibly hard so that the very best 1% of players have a tough time and need to really focus and bring their A-game.

That means they would have created a lot of content that was basically inaccessible to all other players except the most dedicated, skilled and with top-tier hardware and internet connection.

They could have made the damage “avoidable” for example but made the margin of error so small you basically have to land 99/100 dodges to get out unscathed – some would have done it – sure – but most wouldn’t have been able to.
So they went the other way – forced everybody to take a step back and bring sustain because of forced damage – that way they can balance against a much lower “average team skill” and make the content accessible to most players.

It is my sincerest belief that even though raids are supposed to be “hard” they will end up being accessible to the vast majority of players simply because Anet has this all-inclusive view.
They have never specifically stated that if you’re really bad, or slow, or have a very bad internet connection raids will be forever out of your grasp.

Torolan.5816:

ODB.6891:

Torolan.5816:

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

But isn´t a raid the epitome of greatness and adaptability anyway, so one of the team is of course the adaptable one and the healer for the evening? If a healer is really going to be mandatory, we are then back at where people that ask for gear from others are now in the position to play something they are either ill suited for or dislike.

Sounds fair to me as being on the other side of that stuff for years, but probably not to you.^^

The logic here is so twisted and convoluted that I am having trouble following it. How is the one person in the group that is only good for one thing (healing)…supposed to be the adaptable one. Are you saying they are adaptable because they have a high healing specialization and the other raid members do not? That may be the case with the ventari, but not with the druid. No one really wants a ranger in a group now, and they certainly won’t when druid becomes available. That leaves you no adaptation….just a mandatory expectation. As far as the rest of the group not being adaptable….they are currently (with the exception of necromancers) and have always been adaptable. That’s what the damage/support/control foundation of the game was previously built upon. The majority of the professions could do all three of these things….just now it likely won’t be enough because of the ramped up healing requirement they are putting into raids to force healers on us. Now we apparently are going to have to take probably two dedicated healers to each raid. If you think the damage dealing players are going to be the only ones expected to ping gear with this new setup….you are in for a rude awakening. If a ranger/druid walks in with anything but full nomad…I’ll leave the result to your imagination. Does that sound fair to you?

It does sound fair to me if I want to play such a character instead of a berserker geared one. Suddenly, one choice(Berserk) turned into at least 2(Berserk X or Ranger Healer) choices. There is also apothecary or cleric for the healing output, so i am not sure that nomad is really needed.

He is indeed the adaptable one because he is willing to change on the healer instead of adamantly demanding to be a damage machine. I am pretty sure that most veterans have classes that can heal really well even right now and still use them as damage dealers in 99% of all cases. Of course there will be long faces if you have to park your damage dealer for a run, but good guys sometimes take one for the team. And raids are a team effort and not about rewards or being an elitist if the propaganda for them told me right, so what could you do better for your team?

In general, I have no problem getting a seat that is given to me or anyone else that is not berserk because it is mandatory. A seat is a seat. It was mandatory to be berserk for years if you wanted to be seen as viable for certain types of content by some people and even then, you were excluded if you were a ranger or a necro. I don´t even have a necro and usually play guardian, so you are barking up the wrong tree anyway if you think that I want to press my ranger into raid groups at all costs.

So it is just that I enjoy using the “convoluted” logic because is it the raider mantra, specialize in damage or get out. Now replace damage with healing, and you have the same reasoning.

you think you are sticking it to elitists/meta players but you are not. They always play the meta, and they will be kicking their former party mates if they arent the meta. They only did zerk because it was the meta.

you are however sticking it to players who enjoyed combat actually being about how well they played, as opposed to matching a mathematic requirement of dmg taken per minute and how well someone else can heal per minute

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

Sadly tanking and healing are going to be a part because some players were upset with the skill difference between themselves and top-tier players who could apparently do content “too easily”.
Also because some other players are upset with people not playing the game the way they think it should be played.

The act of wearing full zerker has no skill gate neither does destroying the molten berserker right when he leaps out in seconds, get real, you can almost automate the process, and you expect Anet to cater to people like you, its no wonder dungeons have been dropped entirely. You will lose raids the same way we lost dungeons if you continue with your godwin attitude.

I expect them to not cater to people who ask for the game to be changed because of their selfish reasons. I never asked for the game to be changed for my sake – I took the game as it was and adapted – how effective I was because of that adaptation is entirely my merit.

Also – I have a feeling raids will become Dungeons 2.0 given there’s enough people like me around looking for the best way to do them.

You can’t make content that’s hard forever – it can be hard for a while but if people keep playing it 10 times, 20 times , 30 times – 100 times – 1000 times – we’ll get better at it and eventually speed clear it – it is inevitable.

phys.7689:

you think you are sticking it to elitists/meta players but you are not. They always play the meta, and they will be kicking their former party mates if they arent the meta. They only did zerk because it was the meta.

you are however sticking it to players who enjoyed combat actually being about how well they played, as opposed to matching a mathematic requirement of dmg taken per minute and how well someone else can heal per minute

So you agree with me then that a meta (zerk right now) group is not there for the group experience but just to quickly waltz over things and even eats it´s own children if they don´t follow the meta?
This would be funny because it happens to be an argument at the foremost front of raiders that a raid, the ultimate goal of elitist gameplay as it seems, is a team building experience first and a hunt for fame, wealth and recognition only in a secondary way…

Harper.4173:

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

Mirta.5029:

What I don’t get is the reaction to everything in here. You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

And why do you think they’re doing that? They decided to put the time and effort to changing around systems for funsies?

I’m just saying that it’s severely disappointing to me when an MMO decides to abandon one of their selling points years later. It really feels like a slap to the face to those that bought the game for those reasons that they advertised then.

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

What would you have them do, stick with the old system? That won’t work. Improve the old system? They’ve had 3 years to do that. There is no point in you deciding to take their decision as a personal offense, you either adapt too, or at least wait to try the system before you start complaining. Right now it seems your just whining because things aren’t how you like them.

Here’s the catch -the old system where you add gear and healing as you need them and if you’re good enough you can mitigate everything could have worked with raids but in order for raids to still be hard it would have meant that raids would have had to be made incredibly hard so that the very best 1% of players have a tough time and need to really focus and bring their A-game.

That means they would have created a lot of content that was basically inaccessible to all other players except the most dedicated, skilled and with top-tier hardware and internet connection.

They could have made the damage “avoidable” for example but made the margin of error so small you basically have to land 99/100 dodges to get out unscathed – some would have done it – sure – but most wouldn’t have been able to.
So they went the other way – forced everybody to take a step back and bring sustain because of forced damage – that way they can balance against a much lower “average team skill” and make the content accessible to most players.

It is my sincerest belief that even though raids are supposed to be “hard” they will end up being accessible to the vast majority of players simply because Anet has this all-inclusive view.
They have never specifically stated that if you’re really bad, or slow, or have a very bad internet connection raids will be forever out of your grasp.

While it is possible to design difficult raids with trinity, I also think this move was to partially make raids easier, but also a lot easier to design.
starts to fall a lot more easily into dps/mitigation/hps. Also they wanted 10 man content but needed to create a reason for extra people.

basically simulation game play is easier to design, and easier in the long term for everyone to win once people figure out the patterns.

The 10 man is such a weird thing though – 10 man but buffs can only be shared out to 5 – so basically you have two 5 man groups working together but somewhat independently.

Also exactly that – easier for the players and devs – easier all around

Torolan.5816:

You can not play the way you want? Why? You don´t have to be the one that changes characters. If you are the one that changes to the healer it´s your choice.
Try reading that again with the thought that this is exactly what is told non-zerkers for years at this point and if you, the good guy in this case, have any guilt to bear for it or if the accusations leveled at you for being a selfish “I want to play my way” guy are maybe uncalled for.

Raids are either a group experience that are together to have fun in which case it is not important who plays what, or a bunch of elitists who want to play their way at all costs.

yes, I can choose to not do the switch and then it would also count as my choice to not be taken in to do the content with anyone.

And I find you calling people that want to have their own builds as elitists weird. Here I am upset that I’ll have to make the change if I want to go anywhere, you’re telling me that I don’t have to, but at the same time I’m elitist if I’m not >_>

And your point is?

We have a group of 10 people. Are you the only one with a mandatory ranger? Probably not. If you are the good guy and change to the ranger, it´s an act of generousity from your side. Or do you assume that you are automatically the one to be kicked if a player that is willing to play a ranger appears on the stage? If so, why? It´s just that one seat in the party is unavailable to you now, not the content.

I indeed consider people that only want to play their way elitists. It does not even matter if this is a meta zerker, it could also be the guy that insist of being a thief, warrior, mesmer or whatever. If a group of 10! people wants to do something and can´t because no one of them is willing to not play their first choice of character in it, they probably should not do anything together at all in this constellation.

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

I did so we aren’t the same

Torolan.5816:

If a group of 10! people wants to do something and can´t because no one of them is willing to not play their first choice of character in it, they probably should not do anything together at all in this constellation.

I wouldn’t call those people “elitists” but still they are a problem. It’s even worse when it doesn’t matter (skill/gear wise) which character you bring, like for example guild missions. How many times I’ve waited for that guy (different person every time, not the same one) to come to guild missions because he was now playing “a new main” that didn’t have any waypoints anywhere and had to run. And when told to get one of the 100% exploration characters they reply with “but this is my NEW main”! I really hate those kinds of players and can’t imagine them ever playing any type of content that requires more complex and specific roles.

If you have an properly geared and ready to go character that can fill a specific role needed by your guild, then why not change?

The real issue comes when nobody has such a character but they want to do the raid. What happens then?

Why are people even arguing, its simple. Wait for the xpac or beta weekend and test it, if you’re happy, continue playing, if you’re unhappy, quit and move on.

ODB.6891:

This is wrong in so many ways. Their design succeeded, but they made the mistake of allowing gear stat combinations in PvE that were superfluous. They left clerics, nomad, cavalier, rampager, etc gear sets available for PvE players to choose from, when there was not a need for them. There should have been a single gear set for PvE. That way players would not have chosen safety net gear to begin with and would not be looking at the need to handhold these players now to make them feel wanted or needed. They did not want to just correct this mistake after the fact by removing the unnecessary gear stat combinations from PvE, so now they are trying to find ways to force relevance of those stat combinations now. Had they not made this mistake to begin with, they could have balanced encounters properly around this base level of stats. They would not be trying to find ways to make players in zerk gear die without the assistance of dedicated healers. They would not be fighting with the condi cap and struggling with balancing condi versus melee damage as much. They would not be struggling with tuning bosses and mobs to hit hard enough to kill players in full nomad…at the expense of everyone else.

You call me wrong in “so many ways” then you proceed with a suggestion to officially kill other players’ favored playstyle in order to preserve your own.

The solution to Arenanet’s problems is to promote build diversity, not to discourage it. God forbid some people like to play something that’s not fully glass-cannon, and they have the right to ask for viability in group content. “Play your way” works in both directions.

ODB.6891:

They did succeed in implementing their trinity of damage/support/control, but players stuck in the traditional trinity mind set still cannot adapt to a new paradigm. The new paradigm did not have those three elements as separate players….it is for each player to do all three of those things at once. We still have so many players struggling to understand that they are supposed to being doing damage, using support abilities and traits, and using control abilities and traits ….all at the same time. ANET seems to have given up on educating these players and decided to revert back to dedicated roles so these players will stop complaining. Hence we have our two new dedicated healers…ventari and druid.

How did they succeed with their vision when the vast majority of their players did not accept it after 3 years? How long do you want them to give the players to adapt before scrapping the idea? 10 years?

ODB.6891:

It is a matter of opinion and personal preference as to whether ANET’s damage/support/control was an improvement over the traditional trinity’s tank/healer/dps. I don’t think one is an improvement over the other…they are just alternatives. I personally enjoyed the alternative, but it looks like that alternative is about to end because ANET could not stick to their vision.

Personal opinions are what they are, but here’s a fact: in 3 years there hasn’t been a single competitor that has copied GW2’s party mechanics. Dynamic events, or some lesser form of them, have been copied by nearly every other MMOs since then. WvW has inspired a lot of new PvP modes in 3 years. A gear and level normalization in PvP has been implemented by a lot of other MMOs. Cosmetics rewards are becoming more popular in MMOs as well… But in 3 years, no one has been willing to copy GW2’s party mechanics. That’s a pretty good sign that the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer is still viewed as superior.

They stuck to their vision for 3 years and it has turned their group PvE into a wasteland. It’s time to try something else. Tank/DPS/healer or something else, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not the status quo.

ODB.6891:

Instead they are letting the unwashed masses cries overwhelm them into reverting back to WoW.

Feel free to blame WoW and its players for every GW2 design decision you dislike, but the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience while this game does not, and for 3 years, players have been asking Arenanet to do something about it.

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

Have you done the content to say they’re mandatory? Unless I missed something, all they said was that they were killing the 10x berserker groups, and good riddance because that’s just stupid.

And even if a healer is required, if there isn’t a single person in your group that is willing to put a few group heals on their bar to help the group progress then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you need to stop hiring cowboys in your guild. The only problem that could happen is if revenant and druid are the only viable healer classes, because the ranger class does not typically attract very “healy” players, and the Ventari stance looks very boring. (That tablet…) If elementalists, guardians, engineers, and maybe shout warriors are viable group healers then it shouldn’t be a problem to have 1 or 2 players heal.

Also, welcome to DPS/Control/Support, where healing is a form of support, and tanking is a form of control. If you can’t find a healer then maybe other forms of support will work. We don’t know yet.

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

I’m looking forward to a GW2 “Active Trinity” in PvP, WvW, and Raids. I say active (w/o actually experiencing yet) where we don’t see a healbot in the back just topping off green bars, and a tank sitting like a meat shield at the front timing cd’s.

With the current combat system improved towards a GW2 Active Trinity overtime is exactly what this game needs in all areas of content. Especially with the introduction of specializations that will/can eventually unlock all roles for every professions (Thief healers/support, Mesmer damage mitigators, etc…).

Current dungeons, fotm, and world pve won’t really be affected…but I can’t wait to see what this does to WvW, sPvP, Raids, and new content.

Bearhugger.4326:

the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience

Umm, what?

There’s a reason so many of us quit last expansion. Without its selling point of open world flying, the PvE experience wasn’t capable of sustaining interest.

Eponet.4829:

Bearhugger.4326:

the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience

Umm, what?

There’s a reason so many of us quit last expansion. Without its selling point of open world flying, the PvE experience wasn’t capable of sustaining interest.

Yeah – i was actually reading the same post and considered replying seriously but then he had to write that.

The conflicts in the player base caused by deviating from core design and USP are delicious to an outside observer. This will end up in an almost ambrosial mess. I feel like Emperor Palpatine now :P

DresdenAllblack.1249:

I think we can grow closer to the trinity circle without being immersed in it.

This is what I’ve supported for a long time.

For the Original Topic Poster:
I think you’re misinterpreting the direction GW2 is going in. They’ve stated a long time ago that Specializations are supposed to help, fix, or improve upon mechanics of its respective class. The philosophy “Any Class, Any Role” is something ArenaNet has been talking about for ages, and they’re now going in that direction. With each new Specialization release, ArenaNet takes a small step in adding a new role for each class.

With that being said, just because a class is getting a Healing-focused Specialization or Tank-focused Specialization doesn’t mean GW2 is changing its format to solely rely on the Trinity. Having aspects of the Trinity being represented in each class is required if we truly want the “Any Class, Any Role” philosophy to come into play.

The game has always had a trinity of damage, control, and support; the problem was that they were all so homogenized that no specialization or thought was required other than: “Build for damage, stack to control, and blast finish to support”. The trinity happened incidentally instead of having any thought… this was bad.

Hopefully with the combination of smarter AI that won’t stack and damage that demands active survivability through support, people will gravitate towards more defensive stats like Knights, Valkyrie, Celestial, Soldiers, Cleric, ect.

I think people are also confusing healer focused for healer. Druid is not a dedicated healer; just a very strong healer. Druid still has the means to control and deal damage, fulfilling the soft trinity as it should have been since the games launch.

This also doesn’t mean that they will be required, but their presence will make surviving easier… as it should be. Everyone no matter their build has access to support, control, and damage, so everyone is still self sufficient. It logically follows that if you go into a dungeon built like glass, you should die pretty easily; a player built to support and one to control should make things easier, but not feel like a requirement; since even a player built like glass can still fill a support role, but worse than someone built for it.

I like GW2 because you don’t need dedicated healers unlike every other mmo.

The way they presented the druid sounded like they’re required to clear raid content and if you run wvw w/o them you’ll lose to a team who does. That sounds pretty mandatory to me.

Keep in mind I’m saying this from a pvp perspective. I agree GW2 PVE dynamics are one of the worst, but I’ve always said if I wanted to do PVE I’d be playing another game.

I’m not sure I like the direction the game is taking, but we’ll have to wait and see…

I don’t think this game can have a proper trinity at this point, without some serious alterations to targeting players and applying buffs to them.

Trinity games mostly work when they’re tab target, click to heal type combat systems, and simply put, GW2 does not have this. It doesn’t matter if something is more supporty than others, since they’re going to be sacrificing something somewhere (control or damage in this case). Raw healing also isn’t very useful when you get one shot or thrown off a ledge or still have a butt ton of conditions on you.

This whole debacle just sounds like meaningless crying to me.

First,as much as it pains me to say this,I would prefer playing a hard-trinity mmorpg than the current system in place,where diversity is discouraged by trivial content which only encourages blazing trough it.

Second,with HoT,gw2 will be getting (If they do this right) a SOFT trinity.As a druid,I’ll be able to both offer offensive support (Glyph of empowerment,spotter,frost spirit) and defensive support (Healing and cleansing) which rangers lacked AND control without even swapping weapons (Daze for days).What’s more,with the same traitlines that allow me to do those things,I’ll just have to swap to sword/axe and deal high DPS with it.I can do all 3 things that the damage,control and support soft trinity offers,with a single build,without being restriscted like in hard-trinity mmos,even tho I’m focusing on one aspect of that trinity (That’s why it’s called SOFT)

Harper.4173:

The 10 man is such a weird thing though – 10 man but buffs can only be shared out to 5 – so basically you have two 5 man groups working together but somewhat independently.
Also exactly that – easier for the players and devs – easier all around

Two separate groups, one will be doing, e.g., CoF p3, the other one Arah p2, all filled with high health unskippable trash mobs, 2 five player parties who will meet at the final to defeat Shadow Behemoth. So, we will get a two dungeons paths in one and a world boss a at the end. I hope no.

when i read long posts like this. cmplaining about things we didn’t even beta test, i think you people are all out of your mind. also you should know by now how gw2 works. and be zerker only won’t cut it can also mean that just before you can do damage you have to switch some lever in a perfect coordinated way or kill some other mob first, or simply figure out how to deal with a fight. much like the jade stage in fractals or a lot of fractals levels actually.
also the druid will do damage while healing, i don’t see how different is from other healing specializations we have right now. before you quit the game because druids at least try it once the next beta week end so you know what you are talking about instead of having it all figured it out in your head when it didn’t even happen yet

Please stop including the word “we” in your arguments. You might not want more than 1 role in the game, but plenty of other people do, trinity or not.

“I said I didn’t want trinity” would have been a much more appropriate title.

Substatic.6958:

Corner stackers got rekt.

Corner stackers have been getting “rekt” for over a year. There’s been no point to standing in a corner since the FGS nerf. The argument for LoSing trash mobs is also pointless considering how easy it is to permablind and ball them.

Kormeg.2469:

Well they really don’t have a choice, take that as a slap in the face if you want. The game isn’t as as successful as they need it to be so they are adapting. Obviously if they are changing direction it’s because they foresee switching their systems to appeal to more people than the current one.

That’s very risky, though.

Look at how we have people complaining even before the content is revealed. ArenaNet has always been an expert on having great ideas but flawed implementation; if the idea here is already creating such discussion, when the raids are released we will likely get a massive outcry.

ArenaNet has had 3 years to refine the systems currently in their game. Their answer is to completely change those systems to something else – requiring a healer to complete hard content. However, they have zero experience adding that kind of content to GW2… And if adding the kind of content they had experience with has not been successful, trying to add something new like this will very likely blow in their faces.

This is the kind of risk you can take with free, low key content. Releasing it as something as loud as they are releasing is a recipe for failure.

maddoctor.2738:

I wouldn’t call those people “elitists” but still they are a problem. It’s even worse when it doesn’t matter (skill/gear wise) which character you bring, like for example guild missions. How many times I’ve waited for that guy (different person every time, not the same one) to come to guild missions because he was now playing “a new main” that didn’t have any waypoints anywhere and had to run. And when told to get one of the 100% exploration characters they reply with “but this is my NEW main”! I really hate those kinds of players and can’t imagine them ever playing any type of content that requires more complex and specific roles.

If you have an properly geared and ready to go character that can fill a specific role needed by your guild, then why not change?

The real issue comes when nobody has such a character but they want to do the raid. What happens then?

Elitist is maybe indeed a little harsh, but they certainly are not teamplayers.

Regarding the problem that no one has a ranger in that group of 10 man, I highly doubt that if they are not relatively new in the game. Maybe he is not properly equipped, but then he just goes in with what he finds in his vault and the raid gets a little bit shaky if not one or more of the more seasoned players can up his game considerably. I am really sure that a raid won´t be planned on maximum gear anyway, so a little less performance should be acceptable.

And the ranger still won´t be the only healer available, just the best. It´s just the mindset of people that are unwilling to accept a viable solution because it is not the optimal solution. Which is really mindblowing if you think about it, a group of 10 people don´t make the raid they plan for days because they only have an ele or a hastily modified bearbow instead of a fully clad druid and probably don´t even try because they automatically assume they will fail or spend hours over hours in the raid to no avail.

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

I wouldn’t call those people “elitists” but still they are a problem. It’s even worse when it doesn’t matter (skill/gear wise) which character you bring, like for example guild missions. How many times I’ve waited for that guy (different person every time, not the same one) to come to guild missions because he was now playing “a new main” that didn’t have any waypoints anywhere and had to run. And when told to get one of the 100% exploration characters they reply with “but this is my NEW main”! I really hate those kinds of players and can’t imagine them ever playing any type of content that requires more complex and specific roles.

If you have an properly geared and ready to go character that can fill a specific role needed by your guild, then why not change?

The real issue comes when nobody has such a character but they want to do the raid. What happens then?

Elitist is maybe indeed a little harsh, but they certainly are not teamplayers.

Regarding the problem that no one has a ranger in that group of 10 man, I highly doubt that if they are not relatively new in the game. Maybe he is not properly equipped, but then he just goes in with what he finds in his vault and the raid gets a little bit shaky if not one or more of the more seasoned players can up his game considerably. I am really sure that a raid won´t be planned on maximum gear anyway, so a little less performance should be acceptable.

And the ranger still won´t be the only healer available, just the best. It´s just the mindset of people that are unwilling to accept a viable solution because it is not the optimal solution. Which is really mindblowing if you think about it, a group of 10 people don´t make the raid they plan for days because they only have an ele or a hastily modified bearbow instead of a fully clad druid and probably don´t even try because they automatically assume they will fail or spend hours over hours in the raid to no avail.

why is there a mandatory role added, that less % of people want to play, than is needed to do content?
This role serves no purpose other than to give people who like the idea of healing, something to do, and make healing based armors serve a purpose.

you dont make everyone suffer to appease less people.
you dont create a tool, then make task just to use the tool.

its completely superflous.
the game had support, like 8 boons and 4 debuffs, healing was supposed to be what happens when you either mess up, or decide to take dmg in order to serve another purpose (have a choice)

by forcing damage, they basically make healing a requisite.
is the game cooler if you always take 400 dmg a second, and have an npc who cures 400 hp a second?
it adds nothing but a dependency for no real purpose

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.

but the problem is, there are never enough of these people to warrant forcing other people to NEED them. Its like if they required you to travel with a guy who wears a beenie to go to the amusement park

sure its really nice for the beenie loving public, its not very nice for people who dont like to wear beenies, and there are way more of them. Who wants to sit around waiting for the beenie guy, or being forced to be the beenie guy for a day.

the reason i say most people dont like it, is because tank and healer are the MAIN bottleneck in any game i have played/heard of that needs them. Years of product research and statistics back this up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2r22ai/duty_finder_wait_times_as_dps_150/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/2ww2fh/how_it_feels_to_soloqueue_as_a_dps/
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/1pcmvj/que_times_for_dps/
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/79252/hows-the-wait-time-for-dungeons-as-dps

Bearhugger.4326:

You call me wrong in “so many ways” then you proceed with a suggestion to officially kill other players’ favored playstyle in order to preserve your own.

That assumption is making you look bad. No where did I say what this one gear set would be. For all you know, it was a blended balance of the existing stat combinations….which is the only thing that would be fair. You’re just seeing what you want to see by assuming I’m trying preserve any play style of my own.

Bearhugger.4326:

The solution to Arenanet’s problems is to promote build diversity, not to discourage it. God forbid some people like to play something that’s not fully glass-cannon, and they have the right to ask for viability in group content. “Play your way” works in both directions.

Yes it does work in both directions….which is something all you rabid zerk haters conveniently forget unless it is turned against you. Eliminating huge stat differences between players would do exactly that…promote diversity…because you would not have any gear stats pushing you into a playstyle. Your playstyle would be whatever you choose in traits + whatever weapon/utilities you choose to use….essentially the same thing that will happen with legendary armor, since you will be able to change stats out of combat. The legendary option does require you to go an extra step, but still roughly accomplishes the same thing.

Bearhugger.4326:

How did they succeed with their vision when the vast majority of their players did not accept it after 3 years? How long do you want them to give the players to adapt before scrapping the idea? 10 years?

Your assumption here is that just because the majority did not accept or adapt, means that what they didn’t accept to or adapt was wrong. There was a time when people wouldn’t accept that the world was round instead of flat…that didn’t make those people right or even smart. Its entirely possible to have an overwhelming number of ignorant people.

Bearhugger.4326:

They stuck to their vision for 3 years and it has turned their group PvE into a wasteland. It’s time to try something else. Tank/DPS/healer or something else, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not the status quo.

I’m going to have to disagree with you there. What’s turned their PvE into a wasteland is stale content. Lack of updates and rewards. Extreme rng on the existing rewards. Who’s going to keep doing the same content for years and not get tired of it? Especially when you’ve squeezed all the rng rewards out of it you want.

Bearhugger.4326:

Feel free to blame WoW and its players for every GW2 design decision you dislike, but the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience while this game does not, and for 3 years, players have been asking Arenanet to do something about it.

Yes, for years, the same players who fail to adapt or even attempt to adapt to a new game model….have been asking for ANET to clone WoW. If WoW was so healthy, there wouldn’t be so many players in GW2. I know I left all blizzard games because I was sick of the exact thing you guys are harassing ANET into implementing here…the trinity. Well, that and various other shady and poorly thought out decisions.

Bearhugger.4326:

Have you done the content to say they’re mandatory? Unless I missed something, all they said was that they were killing the 10x berserker groups, and good riddance because that’s just stupid.

I don’t have the do the content to know something they pretty much came out and said in a public interview. They explicitly said that avoidance and mitigation were not going to cut it…that’s what the zerker meta is all about btw. Their forum specialists and they have been saying that there will be unavoidable damage that we will need to be healed through. How does that not equate to mandatory healers?

Bearhugger.4326:

And even if a healer is required, if there isn’t a single person in your group that is willing to put a few group heals on their bar to help the group progress then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you need to stop hiring cowboys in your guild. The only problem that could happen is if revenant and druid are the only viable healer classes, because the ranger class does not typically attract very “healy” players, and the Ventari stance looks very boring. (That tablet…) If elementalists, guardians, engineers, and maybe shout warriors are viable group healers then it shouldn’t be a problem to have 1 or 2 players heal.

Also, welcome to DPS/Control/Support, where healing is a form of support, and tanking is a form of control. If you can’t find a healer then maybe other forms of support will work. We don’t know yet.

The issue you guys are wanting to gloss over is that being pressed into healing…when you don’t necessarily want to be a healer…is not a positive thing. I’m speaking from the perspective of a player who has played hybrid classes in many games. I’m pretty sure there are other veteran players from other games who have done the same and know full well what happens when that need for the trinity style healer arises and you happen to be on the class that technically can do it…and has the tools to do it better than other classes in the group. Slap on that healing gear/build and take it for the team. Stare at health bars and take the blame when anyone dies. Take the blame when the raid fails. Not everyone enjoys healing, especially not being pressed into it involuntarily. Yes, you may be fortunate enough that there is someone in the group that actually wants to heal…but then you may not be. Its not the end of the world to be the heal-kitten, but it goes against their former mantra….phiw. This is ironic when phiw is the justification for this change…that will be going directly against itself. The previous model at least let you play whatever build you wanted, whenever you wanted, and you could clear any content while doing that. You just came out doing it better when you did it with like minded players.

As far as support goes….yes healing is a form of support. There is a difference in healing being a part of support, to it being a mandatory requirement for success….and success only being achievable with a high threshold of this healing. We had support before (boons, utilities, heals, debuffs). Now they are implementing an artificial requirement to not be able to complete the content without an excess of one component of that support. So no, this is not a welcome to support…as we already had that.

I like options. I am also Australian and can’t always dodge out of circles before they hit me, due to lag, and I always appreciate having tankier sets because of that.

phys.7689:

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.

but the problem is, there are never enough of these people to warrant forcing other people to NEED them. Its like if they required you to travel with a guy who wears a beenie to go to the amusement park

sure its really nice for the beenie loving public, its not very nice for people who dont like to wear beenies, and there are way more of them. Who wants to sit around waiting for the beenie guy, or being forced to be the beenie guy for a day.

the reason i say most people dont like it, is because tank and healer are the MAIN bottleneck in any game i have played/heard of that needs them. Years of product research and statistics back this up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2r22ai/duty_finder_wait_times_as_dps_150/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/2ww2fh/how_it_feels_to_soloqueue_as_a_dps/
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/1pcmvj/que_times_for_dps/
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/79252/hows-the-wait-time-for-dungeons-as-dps

And then we are at the team building stuff again. Lets take on your amusement park example. Are you willing to wear a beenie if it brings you and your friends in the park? You call it unjustified, I think it is a social spot for someone who likes beenies nd would elsewise not be allowed in the park.

lukejoe.1592:

Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.

I played a trinity game for 2+ years, helping run a raiding guild. “Standing still and mashing a rotation” is a gross oversimplification of what trinity play looks like and is frankly insulting to the skill required to coordinate and execute said play, when dealing with highstakes twitch mechanics.

Dodge roll in this game makes dodging mechanics so easy, compared to the average trinity game, where you actually have to anticipate your positioning and start moving INSTANTLY, or you’re dead from a mechanic (typically, the only person who can take a boss hit or two before dying is the tank and I really mean a hit or two, not four or five).

In a typical trinity game, the only thing that’s going to save you from poor awareness and positioning is heal spam, which only goes so far in the context of a timed boss fight with enrage mechanics if you don’t have good enough DPS.

I could go on. Point is, if you don’t like the idea of trinity design, good for you, but don’t misrepresent what it is.

Torolan.5816:

phys.7689:

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.

but the problem is, there are never enough of these people to warrant forcing other people to NEED them. Its like if they required you to travel with a guy who wears a beenie to go to the amusement park

sure its really nice for the beenie loving public, its not very nice for people who dont like to wear beenies, and there are way more of them. Who wants to sit around waiting for the beenie guy, or being forced to be the beenie guy for a day.

the reason i say most people dont like it, is because tank and healer are the MAIN bottleneck in any game i have played/heard of that needs them. Years of product research and statistics back this up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2r22ai/duty_finder_wait_times_as_dps_150/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/2ww2fh/how_it_feels_to_soloqueue_as_a_dps/
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/1pcmvj/que_times_for_dps/
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/79252/hows-the-wait-time-for-dungeons-as-dps

And then we are at the team building stuff again. Lets take on your amusement park example. Are you willing to wear a beenie if it brings you and your friends in the park? You call it unjustified, I think it is a social spot for someone who likes beenies nd would elsewise not be allowed in the park.

as i have shown, there are not enough people who like wearing beanies to support the desire for said content. That is the main problem, and has always been the problem with requiring them.

Why does everyone have to suffer for beenie wearers? Its already been documented, its a known outcome.

in the old system you could take a beenie wearer if you wanted to
in the new system you can not, not take a beenie wearer, how is that a better situation?

If they wanted healers to be more viable, they merely had to increase the skill cap.
Then people would take healers based on their skill levels.

sure, the super elite wouldnt need healers, but the average team? they might want them.

phys.7689:

as i have shown, there are not enough people who like wearing beanies to support the desire for said content. That is the main problem, and has always been the problem with requiring them.

Why does everyone have to suffer for beenie wearers? Its already been documented, its a known outcome.

in the old system you could take a beenie wearer if you wanted to
in the new system you can not, not take a beenie wearer, how is that a better situation?

If they wanted healers to be more viable, they merely had to increase the skill cap.
Then people would take healers based on their skill levels.

sure, the super elite wouldnt need healers, but the average team? they might want them.

Lol, I’m killing myself laughing at the beenie wearer example. Its hilarious, but so accurate and appropriate. Such an artificially created and arbitrarily imposed handicap.

Back on track though, I think this guy is not going to ever acknowledge reason. He’s pretty much just happy to say anything if it means he can spite zerk players….even if it means spiting himself and anyone else as a result. The argument, logic, and historical facts are clear here.

Wouldn’t be more accurate call a duality? Healer and dps. There isn’t a real tank role because there is no way to control agro in this game. Taunt is a cc not an agro management tool.

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

Jackums.3496:

It’s amusing, though, watching this minority cling to the zerk meta for dear life.

I have never, in my life ran zerker and I didn’t have problems ever getting groups. Yet I’m one of those that is upset by the game forcing healers on us for raids. The lack of trinity is one reason why I played this game to begin with.

But hey, Blayde and Soul has no trinity. And they’re releasing in the west before 2016… However if the people that you call a minority get up and leave, I don’t think that they’ll look like such a minority anymore.

phys.7689:

the reason i say most people dont like it, is because tank and healer are the MAIN bottleneck in any game i have played/heard of that needs them. Years of product research and statistics back this up.

Then, let’s ask ourselves, and the entire MMORPG industry, why are tanks and healers the bottlenecks on all trinity games? I will outline a few reasons that I personally believe so (there are probably more):

A) They are stressful roles, not because they are more complex to play, that’s by no means true, but because if something goes wrong and the entire run fails, they get all the blame. When was the last time a DPS got the blame for a wipe? The percentage of that happening is very low compared to how often Healers/Tanks get the blame.

B) They require multiple gear sets and multiple builds. While a DPS character can use the same build in raids/dungeons and while questing, the average tank or healer will probably have to change while questing and roaming the open world. That’s because your amazing tanking/healing abilities are rarely useful when leveling/exploring/ questing and you rely on those only when you play group content. This means that tanks/healers have an extra expense to play (to acquire their raid gear) and extra builds to learn. How is this fair?

C) Tanks/healers are slow. And when I say slow I mean slow to level. Most trinity games go to great lengths to give such roles at least one DPS spec, so they can compare with DPS characters at least for the leveling process, but it’s rarely enough, a pure DPS character will out-DPS them, and even in trinity games, DPS is all that is needed and all that is important when leveling/questing. When they give you the quest to kill 10 rats you must kill them in the least time, so you move on to the kill 10 cats afterwards. A tank/healer will take a substantial more time to finish them. And since we also have B ) this learning experience with the DPS spec is moot because once they go to try group content they will need to change their build anyway.

D) Tanks/healers are, in general, boring to play at lower levels. While DPS characters start quickly with dps skills, a tank or healer might learn taunts and heals first, which aren’t useful for low level play at all. This is done so the players learn their “role” but it makes the roles slow to level and incredibly boring to play at least at those lower levels of play. What’s the use of threat management or healing if there is no party to help?

The game that did it correctly was GW1 because players always needed a group, even at the lower levels, which meant your healer could use the same build when questing and when doing elite dungeons. You were never left alone, so an actual healer was important even when doing random quests outside Ascalon.

Bearhugger.4326:

ODB.6891:

This is wrong in so many ways. Their design succeeded, but they made the mistake of allowing gear stat combinations in PvE that were superfluous. They left clerics, nomad, cavalier, rampager, etc gear sets available for PvE players to choose from, when there was not a need for them. There should have been a single gear set for PvE. That way players would not have chosen safety net gear to begin with and would not be looking at the need to handhold these players now to make them feel wanted or needed. They did not want to just correct this mistake after the fact by removing the unnecessary gear stat combinations from PvE, so now they are trying to find ways to force relevance of those stat combinations now. Had they not made this mistake to begin with, they could have balanced encounters properly around this base level of stats. They would not be trying to find ways to make players in zerk gear die without the assistance of dedicated healers. They would not be fighting with the condi cap and struggling with balancing condi versus melee damage as much. They would not be struggling with tuning bosses and mobs to hit hard enough to kill players in full nomad…at the expense of everyone else.

You call me wrong in “so many ways” then you proceed with a suggestion to officially kill other players’ favored playstyle in order to preserve your own.

The solution to Arenanet’s problems is to promote build diversity, not to discourage it. God forbid some people like to play something that’s not fully glass-cannon, and they have the right to ask for viability in group content. “Play your way” works in both directions.

ODB.6891:

They did succeed in implementing their trinity of damage/support/control, but players stuck in the traditional trinity mind set still cannot adapt to a new paradigm. The new paradigm did not have those three elements as separate players….it is for each player to do all three of those things at once. We still have so many players struggling to understand that they are supposed to being doing damage, using support abilities and traits, and using control abilities and traits ….all at the same time. ANET seems to have given up on educating these players and decided to revert back to dedicated roles so these players will stop complaining. Hence we have our two new dedicated healers…ventari and druid.

How did they succeed with their vision when the vast majority of their players did not accept it after 3 years? How long do you want them to give the players to adapt before scrapping the idea? 10 years?

ODB.6891:

It is a matter of opinion and personal preference as to whether ANET’s damage/support/control was an improvement over the traditional trinity’s tank/healer/dps. I don’t think one is an improvement over the other…they are just alternatives. I personally enjoyed the alternative, but it looks like that alternative is about to end because ANET could not stick to their vision.

Personal opinions are what they are, but here’s a fact: in 3 years there hasn’t been a single competitor that has copied GW2’s party mechanics. Dynamic events, or some lesser form of them, have been copied by nearly every other MMOs since then. WvW has inspired a lot of new PvP modes in 3 years. A gear and level normalization in PvP has been implemented by a lot of other MMOs. Cosmetics rewards are becoming more popular in MMOs as well… But in 3 years, no one has been willing to copy GW2’s party mechanics. That’s a pretty good sign that the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer is still viewed as superior.

They stuck to their vision for 3 years and it has turned their group PvE into a wasteland. It’s time to try something else. Tank/DPS/healer or something else, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not the status quo.

ODB.6891:

Instead they are letting the unwashed masses cries overwhelm them into reverting back to WoW.

Feel free to blame WoW and its players for every GW2 design decision you dislike, but the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience while this game does not, and for 3 years, players have been asking Arenanet to do something about it.

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

Have you done the content to say they’re mandatory? Unless I missed something, all they said was that they were killing the 10x berserker groups, and good riddance because that’s just stupid.

And even if a healer is required, if there isn’t a single person in your group that is willing to put a few group heals on their bar to help the group progress then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you need to stop hiring cowboys in your guild. The only problem that could happen is if revenant and druid are the only viable healer classes, because the ranger class does not typically attract very “healy” players, and the Ventari stance looks very boring. (That tablet…) If elementalists, guardians, engineers, and maybe shout warriors are viable group healers then it shouldn’t be a problem to have 1 or 2 players heal.

Also, welcome to DPS/Control/Support, where healing is a form of support, and tanking is a form of control. If you can’t find a healer then maybe other forms of support will work. We don’t know yet.

I love you.

If the basis for your PVE group content is completion time rather than actually completing it, then your content fails to properly challenge your players. GW2’s group PVE content is by far the worst out of any MMO i’ve ever played and i’ve played them all since ’99.

I’m personally in favor of expanding the trinity to what it once was instead of sticking to the boring one made popular by WoW. Tank/Heal/Support/CC with DPS being the least important. Unfortunately the encounters and content need to actually be designed for this to prevent everyone from just throwing nothing but dps at it.

The core design flaw in GW2’s group PVE is that you can just throw dps at it and do better than the alternatives. That’s been a huge mistake in my eyes and one that’ll hopefully be corrected in the expansion.

Ald.9418:

Bearhugger.4326:

ODB.6891:

This is wrong in so many ways. Their design succeeded, but they made the mistake of allowing gear stat combinations in PvE that were superfluous. They left clerics, nomad, cavalier, rampager, etc gear sets available for PvE players to choose from, when there was not a need for them. There should have been a single gear set for PvE. That way players would not have chosen safety net gear to begin with and would not be looking at the need to handhold these players now to make them feel wanted or needed. They did not want to just correct this mistake after the fact by removing the unnecessary gear stat combinations from PvE, so now they are trying to find ways to force relevance of those stat combinations now. Had they not made this mistake to begin with, they could have balanced encounters properly around this base level of stats. They would not be trying to find ways to make players in zerk gear die without the assistance of dedicated healers. They would not be fighting with the condi cap and struggling with balancing condi versus melee damage as much. They would not be struggling with tuning bosses and mobs to hit hard enough to kill players in full nomad…at the expense of everyone else.

You call me wrong in “so many ways” then you proceed with a suggestion to officially kill other players’ favored playstyle in order to preserve your own.

The solution to Arenanet’s problems is to promote build diversity, not to discourage it. God forbid some people like to play something that’s not fully glass-cannon, and they have the right to ask for viability in group content. “Play your way” works in both directions.

ODB.6891:

They did succeed in implementing their trinity of damage/support/control, but players stuck in the traditional trinity mind set still cannot adapt to a new paradigm. The new paradigm did not have those three elements as separate players….it is for each player to do all three of those things at once. We still have so many players struggling to understand that they are supposed to being doing damage, using support abilities and traits, and using control abilities and traits ….all at the same time. ANET seems to have given up on educating these players and decided to revert back to dedicated roles so these players will stop complaining. Hence we have our two new dedicated healers…ventari and druid.

How did they succeed with their vision when the vast majority of their players did not accept it after 3 years? How long do you want them to give the players to adapt before scrapping the idea? 10 years?

ODB.6891:

It is a matter of opinion and personal preference as to whether ANET’s damage/support/control was an improvement over the traditional trinity’s tank/healer/dps. I don’t think one is an improvement over the other…they are just alternatives. I personally enjoyed the alternative, but it looks like that alternative is about to end because ANET could not stick to their vision.

Personal opinions are what they are, but here’s a fact: in 3 years there hasn’t been a single competitor that has copied GW2’s party mechanics. Dynamic events, or some lesser form of them, have been copied by nearly every other MMOs since then. WvW has inspired a lot of new PvP modes in 3 years. A gear and level normalization in PvP has been implemented by a lot of other MMOs. Cosmetics rewards are becoming more popular in MMOs as well… But in 3 years, no one has been willing to copy GW2’s party mechanics. That’s a pretty good sign that the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer is still viewed as superior.

They stuck to their vision for 3 years and it has turned their group PvE into a wasteland. It’s time to try something else. Tank/DPS/healer or something else, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not the status quo.

ODB.6891:

Instead they are letting the unwashed masses cries overwhelm them into reverting back to WoW.

Feel free to blame WoW and its players for every GW2 design decision you dislike, but the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience while this game does not, and for 3 years, players have been asking Arenanet to do something about it.

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

Have you done the content to say they’re mandatory? Unless I missed something, all they said was that they were killing the 10x berserker groups, and good riddance because that’s just stupid.

And even if a healer is required, if there isn’t a single person in your group that is willing to put a few group heals on their bar to help the group progress then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you need to stop hiring cowboys in your guild. The only problem that could happen is if revenant and druid are the only viable healer classes, because the ranger class does not typically attract very “healy” players, and the Ventari stance looks very boring. (That tablet…) If elementalists, guardians, engineers, and maybe shout warriors are viable group healers then it shouldn’t be a problem to have 1 or 2 players heal.

Also, welcome to DPS/Control/Support, where healing is a form of support, and tanking is a form of control. If you can’t find a healer then maybe other forms of support will work. We don’t know yet.

I love you.

If the basis for your PVE group content is completion time rather than actually completing it, then your content fails to properly challenge your players. GW2’s group PVE content is by far the worst out of any MMO i’ve ever played and i’ve played them all since ’99.

I’m personally in favor of expanding the trinity to what it once was instead of sticking to the boring one made popular by WoW. Tank/Heal/Support/CC with DPS being the least important. Unfortunately the encounters and content need to actually be designed for this to prevent everyone from just throwing nothing but dps at it.

The core design flaw in GW2’s group PVE is that you can just throw dps at it and do better than the alternatives. That’s been a huge mistake in my eyes and one that’ll hopefully be corrected in the expansion.

thing is healers and tanks wasnt the flaw, gw2 fights would be exactly as lame with tanks and healers if not moreso.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

the reason i say most people dont like it, is because tank and healer are the MAIN bottleneck in any game i have played/heard of that needs them. Years of product research and statistics back this up.

Then, let’s ask ourselves, and the entire MMORPG industry, why are tanks and healers the bottlenecks on all trinity games? I will outline a few reasons that I personally believe so (there are probably more):

A) They are stressful roles, not because they are more complex to play, that’s by no means true, but because if something goes wrong and the entire run fails, they get all the blame. When was the last time a DPS got the blame for a wipe? The percentage of that happening is very low compared to how often Healers/Tanks get the blame.

B) They require multiple gear sets and multiple builds. While a DPS character can use the same build in raids/dungeons and while questing, the average tank or healer will probably have to change while questing and roaming the open world. That’s because your amazing tanking/healing abilities are rarely useful when leveling/exploring/ questing and you rely on those only when you play group content. This means that tanks/healers have an extra expense to play (to acquire their raid gear) and extra builds to learn. How is this fair?

C) Tanks/healers are slow. And when I say slow I mean slow to level. Most trinity games go to great lengths to give such roles at least one DPS spec, so they can compare with DPS characters at least for the leveling process, but it’s rarely enough, a pure DPS character will out-DPS them, and even in trinity games, DPS is all that is needed and all that is important when leveling/questing. When they give you the quest to kill 10 rats you must kill them in the least time, so you move on to the kill 10 cats afterwards. A tank/healer will take a substantial more time to finish them. And since we also have B ) this learning experience with the DPS spec is moot because once they go to try group content they will need to change their build anyway.

D) Tanks/healers are, in general, boring to play at lower levels. While DPS characters start quickly with dps skills, a tank or healer might learn taunts and heals first, which aren’t useful for low level play at all. This is done so the players learn their “role” but it makes the roles slow to level and incredibly boring to play at least at those lower levels of play. What’s the use of threat management or healing if there is no party to help?

The game that did it correctly was GW1 because players always needed a group, even at the lower levels, which meant your healer could use the same build when questing and when doing elite dungeons. You were never left alone, so an actual healer was important even when doing random quests outside Ascalon.

even in gw1 finding healers was a bottleneck, and i will admit they had one of the more entertaining healers.

people just dont enjoy the responsibility, and lack of coolness, games i played tanks and healers level faster through dungeons.

once again, leveling healer classes isnt really the issue, its that people dont want to play healers.
they dont want to have responsibility for everyone elses life or death, and they dont really enjoy the gameplay, and the idea of the role. If they enjoyed it, they d have leveled it up. I suffered through hours of waiting for group, had low value in raids, because i enjoyed monk(martial) in ffxi, a great many people were just like me, waiting for group, doing crappy exp boosting stuff i the mean time. And ffxi was crazy with gear sets, you literally had to macro gear changes before doing big attacks. Point is people arent playing healers because they dont want to heal, not because its inaccessible.

Mirta.5029:

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

Jackums.3496:

It’s amusing, though, watching this minority cling to the zerk meta for dear life.

I have never, in my life ran zerker and I didn’t have problems ever getting groups. Yet I’m one of those that is upset by the game forcing healers on us for raids. The lack of trinity is one reason why I played this game to begin with.

But hey, Blayde and Soul has no trinity. And they’re releasing in the west before 2016… However if the people that you call a minority get up and leave, I don’t think that they’ll look like such a minority anymore.

i also have no pure zerk chars, and dont even run dungeon zerk meta. I wanted them to make stats valuable by having them effect playstyle in a gw fashion, and through encounter design, not be forcing guaranteed dmg so that stats and party make up is a gate

Well In the end well go to a system which will Maximize DPS, Reflects, CC and Heals and has a good measure of tankiness.

This will mean we’ll end up roughly with WvW builds builds:
around 2400-2700 armor instead of full glass with most focussing on
:

• Cavalier (T/P/F), (Knights(T/P/P) and/or Valkyrie (P/V/F) and Zerk(P/P/F) to get a balanced DPS, Why go for PvT and lose all ferocity? you can stack 20%crit chance with fury and have spotter and banners to buff precision

• Zealot (P/P/H) (/ Nomads (T/V/H)) and Clerics(H/T/P) for a balanced sustainable heal build For DPS/HEAL

• Sinister(C/P/P)(/Dire (C/T/V)) and Rabid (C/T/P) for some balanced sustainable conndition builds For Condi builds with some power for objects.

• ( Apothecary (/ Magi/Shaman)) for condition/ healing combo’s (due to condition dmg needing only 1 stat for maximized DOT (quickly ignoring duration) heal can be added for condi/healing mixes while retaining some combat dmg. unfortunately ALL healing weapons have NO condition application).

• Celestial builds (All stats) which will give access to EVERYTHING but have low DPS and DOT maxima as well as limited heal, but with some might stacking… well it remains potentially viable BUT you need to be able to use the specs you have in your chose build, also making celestial armor is a PAIN.

these 4(5?) builds incorporate some tankyness, and have dedicated roles
CC is generally build related and reflects are mostly build related as well (just gab the correct utility or weapons.)

In effect we will never be tanks, we just need to shift to somewhat more tankyness…

Manu.6078:

Harper.4173:

The 10 man is such a weird thing though – 10 man but buffs can only be shared out to 5 – so basically you have two 5 man groups working together but somewhat independently.
Also exactly that – easier for the players and devs – easier all around

Two separate groups, one will be doing, e.g., CoF p3, the other one Arah p2, all filled with high health unskippable trash mobs, 2 five player parties who will meet at the final to defeat Shadow Behemoth. So, we will get a two dungeons paths in one and a world boss a at the end. I hope no.

Same – also the idea of unskippable mobs is a terrible one – people skip because the drops the mobs give are useless – instead of forcing players you can incentivize them by offering proper drops.

Torolan.5816:

I am pretty sure that there are enough people that play for example berserk but would really be more comfortable with playing something else, something more safe. Still they stay berserk to be able to stay in their groups. Is that mandatory too? Surely not mandatory be design, but mandatory by default.

This is the first raid Anet makes for GW2. If it is planned with a healer in mind, how do you lose time or are hampered in your playstyle if you stayon your berserk close combat warrior? It is working as intended then. You are unable to speed rush the raid, and your friend that likes to support and heal can finally do something he likes instead of just bleeding profusely when attempting to dodge this and that. I see only winners here, with the exception of the speed runners which had everything shoved up their rektums up until now.

Protip : people that are so bad/slow that they’re having trouble surviving current content in zerker gear will most likely be even worse off in raids – that is if Anet keeps their word and raids are actually difficult.
There’s no winning for the slow and average and unskilled players here – even if you can’t dodge all the damage raids will require coordination, skill and reflex – and if you didn’t have them before you probably won’t be raiding very well.

It’s the speed clear people that win the most here – because they adapt the easiest and will probably find only other speed clear and hardcore minded players to go with on raids – while most other players sit on the sidelines.

Agreed with the OP, I definitely don’t want the Trinity to come into the game. Healers and Tanks are fine, so long as you don’t need to have them.

Lhos.1643:

This thread will go places.

Not good places, but places.

Had me laugh very hard. Good one. +1