Guild Wars 2

“Open Air Dungeons?” Puhhhleeeeease. Make them real instances so I can play with my guild and keep the pugs out. You want to “play how I want?” Fine. I want to play with whom I want.

Valento.9852:

Understandable. In such case, just mimic Marionette: slice a reasonable part of the map, add mechanics there, and work out entrance requirements (eg. players limit), then trigger a player-based or guild-based “lock” to prevent multiple raid openings per overflow (so other guilds can do it). There, people doing raids in a controlled environment using a slice of the map, but it’s purposefully limited to a X amount of players.

Oh, forgot to say that it’s just how Guild Puzzles work. It becomes closed after some time. So it’s not new or “awkward”.

I made a suggestion about this a while ago combining open world and instanced content:

A good way forward with next encounters is to make World Bosses guild events like the guild challenge in Blazeridge. The guild that starts that challenge gets bazookas to destroy some crystals, everyone can join that guild and help with mobs, but they can’t use the bazookas.
So imagine if let’s say the Triple Trouble wurm was a guild event and to be more specific let’s look at Amber. Only guild members can be “eaten” by the Wurm to enter its belly, and in there they have to fight a powerful boss (instead of just attacking) in order to charge the spear.
In a similar way, if the Marionette was “recreated” as a guild mission, only guild members could join the platforms with pre-made groups, build in a way to defeat the bosses, while everyone else can join the lane defense.
Or at Tequatl, only guild members can use the Turrets. At certain times Tequatl will get his scale invulnerability buff and the only way to remove it, is from guild members (and only guild members) to enter the Vortex and defeat a group of bosses down there to remove the hardened scales.
Using this system, you stay in the open world, which is Anet’s goal, they hate instances. BUT you add challenging small group encounters into the mix.

This is how I see “challenging group content” in the context of GW2

Simzani.4318:

Raids means lot of work to create and fine tuning, something that doesn’t correlate with the low quality low quantity anet standard.

Not to put words in your mouth, but are you suggesting they dumb down the difficulty of content on purpose?

No i mean that arenanet’s devs doesn’t have the skill to create a raid even if they would have all the time they need ; they couldn’t tune it for a set amount of players, and i don’t think they have the skills to design it as a whole.

^ Have you tried Triple Trouble Wurm?

I did. In 3 years they only could create two glorified world boss zergfest. That’s why i think they don’t have the skills to design a whole standard raid, for maybe 12 players with 10 boss. My guess is that their challenging group content is a glorified meta event, like triple wurm is a glorified world boss. Sort of an elite zone in a corner of a mini-map.

Well they clearly can do it. There have been at least five fights that can be considered raid-level fights.
New Tequatl. Triple Trouble Wurms, Vinewrath, Marionette and Lion’s Arch Watchwork Knights.

They have also hired a raid designer some time back.

lordkrall.7241:

Well they clearly can do it. There have been at least five fights that can be considered raid-level fights.
New Tequatl. Triple Trouble Wurms, Vinewrath, Marionette and Lion’s Arch Watchwork Knights.

They have also hired a raid designer some time back.

And how many of those are still considered “challenging?” Anet can create good challenging content, problem is with the power creep that “challenging content” is rapidly reduced to farm status. Not really to blame it on the current issue with the meta, but with the increase in the condi cap it should provide an interesting way to play in a sense and not afk left spamming 1. I like the emphasis of them saying you’ll use EVERY skill/Utility in your bar. (Think Wurm day 1, but harder than that.)

The problem isnt can they create a challenge, more it’s can they maintain said challenge.

lordkrall.7241:

Well they clearly can do it. There have been at least five fights that can be considered raid-level fights.
New Tequatl. Triple Trouble Wurms, Vinewrath, Marionette and Lion’s Arch Watchwork Knights.

They have also hired a raid designer some time back.

The thing that all those events are missing, except maybe for the Marionette, is the most key component of a “challenging” content. This “challenge” needs to apply to everyone, or at least to the vast majority of participants in any type of content so it can be called “challenging”. If an encounter is challenging for a few commanders and maybe a couple other players but the rest can just auto attack then it’s hardly a challenge. In the Marionette fight that was achieved partially by the platform mechanic, in the other fights you mention a couple of people need to know what to do but the rest can just form a huge blob and auto attack.

They are all challenging as far as organization goes, but down to the individual level no open world fight can ever be truly a challenge for everyone playing it. This is the main problem with open world compared to instanced, since content needs to be created for a variable number of people, and the amount of players might change during the encounter, it’s nearly impossible to have an event challenging for everyone.

The solution is to either make the encounters instanced, so called Raids in other MMORPGs, or at least use ways to split the players in smaller groups, small enough to be like dungeon parties, so the boss mechanics can be more properly balanced. The Marionette once again did this in an excellent way, there is splitting in the other events, but it’s not as effective as the Marionette split.

The big source of complains for the Marionette fight was the random aspect of it, being grouped with randoms and then forced to cooperate to bring down a boss. Bad splits could lead to teams that consist fully of inexperienced players or in some very rare cases even trolls.

Now if the groups that were doing the “instanced” parts, like the platform fights in the Marionette were only guild pre-mades, similar to how only Guild members can interact with the Crystals in the Blazeridge guild challenge, then the challenge level could go sky high too. And challenge nearly EVERYONE.

That’s why I want a mix of open world and instanced. Instanced from pre-made guild teams, and an open world aspect to allow as many players as possible to participate.

CodeHavoc.7926:

And how many of those are still considered “challenging?” Anet can create good challenging content, problem is with the power creep that “challenging content” is rapidly reduced to farm status. Not really to blame it on the current issue with the meta, but with the increase in the condi cap it should provide an interesting way to play in a sense and not afk left spamming 1. I like the emphasis of them saying you’ll use EVERY skill/Utility in your bar. (Think Wurm day 1, but harder than that.)

The problem isnt can they create a challenge, more it’s can they maintain said challenge.

Everything will become “easy” or at the very least “not challenging” when people know how to do it.
That is simply the nature of games. Unless the fights are 100% random and completely AI controlled (such as the mobs actually learning and so on) sooner or later everything will become easy after a while.

cranos.5913:

Vayne.8563:

Way to ignore what people fear about raids. I won’t repeat it, because I’ve said it already, but this is pretty disingenuous. If you think raids don’t affect a game, it means you like them. I’ve left every raiding game, because raids spill over into other areas of the game, particularly when it comes to rewards.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Anet is notoriously bad for rewards. At best the raids would have unique skins, at worst a couple of gold. If you fear the name raid so much, let’s call it a dungeon and oh look, you can already see what kind of rewards those get. Maybe that’s putting it a bit too simplistic but people thinking “gear grind” or other obvious rewards from other games have nothing to fear in the first place. They won’t do it, they won’t even raise the level cap, so it’s all just wild speculation based on absolutely nothing.

Well there’s a difference between a raid and a dungeon. Getting 5 people together for a dungeon is a lot easier than getting 20 people together for a raid, or even 10. So now, you take every medium sized guild and pretty much tell them to pug. Which is bad because not everyone wants to or likes to pug. So it forces people into bigger guilds if they want that skin.

The problem is finding people that play casually, that aren’t competitive elitists to do that content. The harder the content, the harder it is for people to find reasonable people to work with them to do it. You just get people who want to get it done faster and faster. It definitely divides the playerbase into have and have nots.

I wonder if you even realize how many people in other games raided for the rewards, even though they really didn’t like it.

Vayne.8563:

What you call something isn’t what it is. It’s LARGELY irrelevant.

It’s more relevant what the player calls it or thinks it is then the company. the company is going to use whatever name gets you to buy it. the gamer is going to use whatever name best represents their impression of it. Saying “This is an expansion because Anet calls it one.” is more meaningless than what the OP said.

Vayne.8563:

You can call a horse a table, but the moment you try to eat dinner on it, you’re in for a rough time.

I’m going to assume you knew your were wrong in the 1st place because you brought up this horribly disingenuous & inapplicable straw man. A horse & a table have almost no relation. Whereas Expansion & DLC are essentially just measurements of the scale & quality of the same exact thing. If someone offers me a large drink & I get it back & I can drink the whole thing in 1 gulp, I don’t consider that large. & I’ll tell ppl that it’s more of a small than a large. I’d also argue that the person selling it is trying to pull a fast one even though there is no empirically “large” measurement. But saying I’m calling it “a table” is poor logic at best.

Vayne.8563:

I needs to provide enough content timewise to compete with other expansions. This isn’t just a single storyline that is being added to an already existing game. It’s a fundamental change of some of the game’s basics. You have to be pretty uncharitable to call this just a DLC and I don’t think most people will.

I agree. So? It doesn’t mean the OP is improperly conveying their opinion. I would probably call this an expansion too, but I’d also make it extremely clear that it looks small for an expansion.

Teq and TT can’t be considered challenging, all it takes is a crap load of players (WAY more than raids, mind you).

Valento.9852:

Teq and TT can’t be considered challenging, all it takes is a crap load of players (WAY more than raids, mind you).

It took nearly a month to figure out the mechanics to Teq since no one knew how to dodge the waves properly, the poison pools at the time pretty much two shotted you without the help of turrets, and there was a limited time to even kill him, even when there was 100 people FULLY participating. Go back in the forums far enough and you’ll see some players at the time crying for a nerf. Not too sure on TT since my server seems to be the least organized for that.

CodeHavoc.7926:

Valento.9852:

Teq and TT can’t be considered challenging, all it takes is a crap load of players (WAY more than raids, mind you).

It took nearly a month to figure out the mechanics to Teq since no one knew how to dodge the waves properly, the poison pools at the time pretty much two shotted you without the help of turrets, and there was a limited time to even kill him, even when there was 100 people FULLY participating. Go back in the forums far enough and you’ll see some players at the time crying for a nerf. Not too sure on TT since my server seems to be the least organized for that.

If I remember correctly, Tequatl was defeated in less than 24 hours after the update. That doesn’t speak challenging to me.

Fernling.1729:

CodeHavoc.7926:

Valento.9852:

Teq and TT can’t be considered challenging, all it takes is a crap load of players (WAY more than raids, mind you).

It took nearly a month to figure out the mechanics to Teq since no one knew how to dodge the waves properly, the poison pools at the time pretty much two shotted you without the help of turrets, and there was a limited time to even kill him, even when there was 100 people FULLY participating. Go back in the forums far enough and you’ll see some players at the time crying for a nerf. Not too sure on TT since my server seems to be the least organized for that.

If I remember correctly, Tequatl was defeated in less than 24 hours after the update. That doesn’t speak challenging to me.

It was more than 24 hours. And it was defeated by a group of 150 organized players that were all on voice chat. For weeks after, servers still failed Tequatl regularly.

Vayne.8563:

It was more than 24 hours. And it was defeated by a group of 150 organized players that were all on voice chat. For weeks after, servers still failed Tequatl regularly.

and some still do. Not because of lack of players, but because they dont want to listen to the people trying to organise the event.

Dante.1763:

Vayne.8563:

It was more than 24 hours. And it was defeated by a group of 150 organized players that were all on voice chat. For weeks after, servers still failed Tequatl regularly.

and some still do. Not because of lack of players, but because they dont want to listen to the people trying to organise the event.

That is the point, you’re forced to group up with people who don’t listen. If you have done Marionette, you should remember well enough this very same problem happening on and on.

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

CodeHavoc.7926:

Valento.9852:

Teq and TT can’t be considered challenging, all it takes is a crap load of players (WAY more than raids, mind you).

It took nearly a month to figure out the mechanics to Teq since no one knew how to dodge the waves properly, the poison pools at the time pretty much two shotted you without the help of turrets, and there was a limited time to even kill him, even when there was 100 people FULLY participating. Go back in the forums far enough and you’ll see some players at the time crying for a nerf. Not too sure on TT since my server seems to be the least organized for that.

If I remember correctly, Tequatl was defeated in less than 24 hours after the update. That doesn’t speak challenging to me.

It was more than 24 hours. And it was defeated by a group of 150 organized players that were all on voice chat. For weeks after, servers still failed Tequatl regularly.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/18/guild-wars-2-world-first-tequatl-the-sunless-is-down/

http://www.gameskinny.com/ky2cm/guild-wars-2-daily-slay-tequatl-defeated

According to this it was under 24 hours. Other article states that there were 3 servers that killed him in the first 24 hours.
From what I remember many servers were defeating him within a week. The real challenge was getting into the main overflow.
After a couple weeks he was on farm for many servers.

edit.. There are many youtube videos confirming less than 24 hour kill too.

I don’t think it’s really possible to have difficult open world group content. I’m not entirely sure I would consider any PvE to be difficult anyways considering it’s just a game of remembering a few attacks etc. That could be because I consider myself a PvP player though.

Valento.9852:

Dante.1763:

Vayne.8563:

It was more than 24 hours. And it was defeated by a group of 150 organized players that were all on voice chat. For weeks after, servers still failed Tequatl regularly.

and some still do. Not because of lack of players, but because they dont want to listen to the people trying to organise the event.

That is the point, you’re forced to group up with people who don’t listen. If you have done Marionette, you should remember well enough this very same problem happening on and on.

Oh im agreeing with you! I didnt do Marionette, i had stopped playing GW2 at the time because of how quickly the LS1 was to each other, it got to much to try and do, so i left.

maddoctor.2738:

Now if the groups that were doing the “instanced” parts, like the platform fights in the Marionette were only guild pre-mades, similar to how only Guild members can interact with the Crystals in the Blazeridge guild challenge, then the challenge level could go sky high too. And challenge nearly EVERYONE.

But where would be the challenge for the randoms be?
If I just press 1 while defending a lane on the marionette fight how is that challenging?

I don’t understand why they can’t just write some pseudo-artificial intelligence and add some creative skills for their creatures.

I would love to dive in and rewrite all the AI for their mobs. I guarantee everyone would have a gleeful grin on their faces once they saw the creatures come alive.

Vayne.8563:

cranos.5913:

Vayne.8563:

Way to ignore what people fear about raids. I won’t repeat it, because I’ve said it already, but this is pretty disingenuous. If you think raids don’t affect a game, it means you like them. I’ve left every raiding game, because raids spill over into other areas of the game, particularly when it comes to rewards.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Anet is notoriously bad for rewards. At best the raids would have unique skins, at worst a couple of gold. If you fear the name raid so much, let’s call it a dungeon and oh look, you can already see what kind of rewards those get. Maybe that’s putting it a bit too simplistic but people thinking “gear grind” or other obvious rewards from other games have nothing to fear in the first place. They won’t do it, they won’t even raise the level cap, so it’s all just wild speculation based on absolutely nothing.

Well there’s a difference between a raid and a dungeon. Getting 5 people together for a dungeon is a lot easier than getting 20 people together for a raid, or even 10. So now, you take every medium sized guild and pretty much tell them to pug. Which is bad because not everyone wants to or likes to pug. So it forces people into bigger guilds if they want that skin.

If they make these “raids” require 10 people then the raids will have the same problems as the current dungeons. However, if they require let’s say 40 players then the problem will go away. Finding 40 people would be a lot easier than finding 10. Why? Because the fewer the people, the more easily they can put requirements, like LF Ele, War, Thief and Guard. With a large amount of people it could easily be done like the gw2community does TT/Teq now.

From my time with them, they’ve always been friendly. They are different than the dungeon zerker wannabes, they always discuss tactics and obviously there are no gear requirements or anything such. The “important” roles are always filled by members of the community who know what they are doing and if someone wants to learn, they can tag along and see how it works by following a “pro”.

The problem is finding people that play casually, that aren’t competitive elitists to do that content. The harder the content, the harder it is for people to find reasonable people to work with them to do it. You just get people who want to get it done faster and faster. It definitely divides the playerbase into have and have nots.

It’s the opposite. The easier the content, the harder it is to find reasonable people to work with them. The more farmable / easy the content, the hardest to find good people to play with, because when it’s easy and farmable, players want to finish it as fast as possible for the quick rewards. Also, if it’s “hard enough” for them the toxic wannabes won’t even run it (see: Aetherpath) so only players who like that type of content will be left to run it, and they might be more inclined to get other players with them.

I always find that in Aetherpath I get the best (and non-speedrunning) groups, while in CoF P1 I get the most elitist jerks in existence. In Aetherpath it’s much more common to forgive a mistake (even if it leads to a wipe) while in TA you are supposed to know perfectly how to skip everything even if it’s your first time in the dungeon.

@maddoctor

That doesn’t really address my concern. Essentially you’d be guaranteeing I’d have to either pug, or join a bigger guild. There’s no way I’d get 40 people in my guild on at the same time, all wanting to do a raid.

This would be a deal breaker, for me at least.

Vayne.8563:

@maddoctor

That doesn’t really address my concern. Essentially you’d be guaranteeing I’d have to either pug, or join a bigger guild. There’s no way I’d get 40 people in my guild on at the same time, all wanting to do a raid.

This would be a deal breaker, for me at least.

Isn’t this how it is done with TT, VW, Tequatl etc? If they make these “raids” like an instanced version of TT then there shouldn’t be a problem, you will only need to join the TS of gw2community (or a similar one) and follow their lead in the raid.

That’s why I’m asking for a large upper limit and not something like 10 or even 20, so it’s more open and we won’t have “looking for zerker” posts about it.

I doubt their “raids” will be like the raids of other MMORPGs it’s Anet we are talking about. I hope they reveal how they are going to work as soon as possible so we can all see what their vision is like.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

@maddoctor

That doesn’t really address my concern. Essentially you’d be guaranteeing I’d have to either pug, or join a bigger guild. There’s no way I’d get 40 people in my guild on at the same time, all wanting to do a raid.

This would be a deal breaker, for me at least.

Isn’t this how it is done with TT, VW, Tequatl etc? If they make these “raids” like an instanced version of TT then there shouldn’t be a problem, you will only need to join the TS of gw2community (or a similar one) and follow their lead in the raid.

That’s why I’m asking for a large upper limit and not something like 10 or even 20, so it’s more open and we won’t have “looking for zerker” posts about it.

I doubt their “raids” will be like the raids of other MMORPGs it’s Anet we are talking about. I hope they reveal how they are going to work as soon as possible so we can all see what their vision is like.

I honestly can’t see this stuff being instanced, but I guess we’ll see soon enough. I prefer it not instanced though. As it stands right now, I don’t have to join a big guild to be on a server with a big guild and yes, I’m not pugging. No one can tell me to leave..or at least, no one can enforce it.

If anyone considers tequatl of triple wurm as challenging then this game is lost. If the upcoming expansion won’t bring anything new for the better-than-average players then they will simply get bored.

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

lordkrall.7241:

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

GW2 – Creating a Legendary.

lordkrall.7241:

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

No need to go to other MMORPGs, Giganticus Lupicus is still a challenge for many many groups and has been out for years. Even if you reach the point where you can solo him effectively it’s still a challenge. Why? Because a single mistake might kill you, a single miss on the appropriate rotation will have you killed (or nearly killed). Liadri was a challenge for most of her existence, aside from the lame borderline exploiting ways of killing her, she was a challenge, and if she was a permanent boss she would still be a challenge. Some of the platform bosses on the Marionette would still be challenging too.

Why are all the above still a challenge? They have unforgiving mechanics that lead to wipes, a few bad moves from the players participating and it’s over. However, a REALLY good player could carry the others and defeat the boss by playing exceptionally well, see how single players can solo Lupicus when the rest of the team is on the ground.

Challenging encounters reward good play, a very good player will be able to beat the encounter even if most of his team is down, challenging encounters punish bad play, a few mistakes can lead to wipes, unless there is an exceptionally good player in the team to fill for those mistakes.

Now if you ask about the open world, then no encounter is challenging after about a month. I can go in full whites to fight Tequatl and my being there, either playing well or playing horribly won’t make a difference. I can just afk and spam 1 on the Jungle Wurm and finish the event and kill it.

A real challenging encounter, challenges EVERYONE. If it challenges just a few people then it’s not a challenge. Allowing exceptionally good players to finish an encounter and make up for mistakes of their team-mates is an added bonus

The real point here and what makes the discussion important is that we can buy HoT or we can’t buy it… thats the key.

It is not just a matter of what HoT should have or what should have not.
It is a matter of if i’ll pay money for a kind of content or if I wont.

To me there is no dilema, actually, i have it pretty clear:
If HoT is not casual (like events of 2 hours, content difficult, or another similar situationts that stole time from me or that will anoy me in any way) i wont pay for it, and i wont play it. Simple and clear. It is a game and im not going to lose time and money on games that i dont like to play.
However, hopefully im the only one who has it that clear, otherwise they can make a huge mistake if they dont sell enough copies for making it “challenging”.

Said that, I guess some people will buy it either way, but then the dilema will come after a few days/weeks: "should i play for 2 hours to do this event? should i stay days trying to kill this boss? do i have anything else to do in the game rather than this kind of “challenging” content? can i play casual?"

You know what i mean, right?

It is not like i bought a casual game where they updated it with an event of 2 hours (wich i like, i still can play casual and people who likes challenging stuff can do it, including myself if im on the mood).
No, in this case it may be that im buying a game with events of 2 hours as core mechanic. It is veeery different. I would be buying a challenging game (at least a challenging game in “time” requirements) instead of a casual one.

GW2 is a casual game where anet first made ir more casual and then they added in its last months a few more strong bosses and a couple of maps with cycle events of 1 hour or 1.5 hours (im talking about tripple wurm, SW and DT)…

Is that what we can expect? is HoT a SW/DT 2.0? events cycles or event chains of 2 hours, 3hours, 4 hours…?
the real question is: is HoT actually Gw2? Or it is another kind of game, more challenging, for another kind of consumer, that i should not buy cause I will only pay for a casual game like GW2?

Im open (and keen) for challenging content. But as updates, as part of game progression in the future, like Gw2 is and has. But im not open for challenging content as the game’s core.
I dont want HoT to be challenging like Colin said and as i saw in last beta.

And like i said at the beggining, im the one deciding if i’ll buy it or not, if i’ll pay for it or not. So i guess it is not my problem, actually. It wont be the first neither the last videogame company who makes a game that i wont buy cause i dont like its mechanics or way of play (or price).

Some person said a few posts before that why people doesnt want raids, if they dont have to play it if they dont want to… like if people was egoist for not letting challenge lovers to have their raids…
The answer is clear: cause im going to pay for the game and its content.
Call me crazy, but im not going to pay for content i dont want to play.
I want to play a casual game, and i’ll pay for it. Then if they want to introduce challenging content as free, ok, i could still play casual.
But im not going to pay for challenging content, sorry. And if you like challenging, you should not pay for casual content that will bore you, i guess.

If Hot is challenging, ok. I just hope it will be as challenging as people who actually pay for that kind of content want it to be so that Anet scores a point.

Sadly, my prediction is that it wont be casual neither challenging. They will still call it challenging (cause marketing reasons) but it wont be 100% challenging, it just will be long and time consuming (aka, not casual either).

I encourage anet to actually define what is HoT and its player base. I know they wont do it (cause as much criptic and vague they are on their messages, better options for consumers of all kinds to think “oh yeah, it is my kind of game”, and buy HoT).

But some people like me, wont buy it until it is clear: And even farther, after it is clear that HoT it is the kind of game we want.

Silicato.4603:

It is not just a matter of what HoT should have or what should have not.
It is a matter of if i’ll pay money for a kind of content or if I wont.

So if HoT has only a small part of it as “challenging” content and the rest of the expansion is not will you buy it?

lordkrall.7241:

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

Will you count dungeon crawlers? C9 and Vindictus have such bosses, at first it’s hard but it remains challenging unless of your course you’re blessed in RNG and have OP everything only downside of such games, for a bit of time Black Desert had the same but they nerfed the bosses. Do you count solo RPG’s the soul series like Bloodborne especially randomized encounters in dungeons maintain a challenge.

Open world challenge is possible as BDO did for a while but in instances it’s easier to make, I think your question should refer to tab target mmos, with real action it’s easier to make it challenging players especially don’t cry when a boss really evades/move etc.

lordkrall.7241:

Can people name a single thing in any MMO that is more than a week month old that is challenging?

Some of the level 60 raids in WoW are still challenging to many players because they have % mechanics instead of pure numbers and they still require coordination to complete.

I don’t think there is any heroic raid in WoW that was considered easy within a month. It took 2-3 weeks just for the best guilds to clear them, another 4-5 weeks before they were on “farm” for the top world guilds, and 3-6 months for most other raiding guilds to get them on farm. By that point they were getting ready to add the next tier of raid.

Edit: and for many of those raids they only became “easy” because the players significantly outgeared the raid. Attempting it in the raid appropriate gear made it significantly more challenging again. DPS checks, skill checks, tank checks and healing checks all made sure you were skilled enough to finish the raid. Even one person standing there auto attacking would fail the encounter.

Triple Trouble and Tequatl is also still challenging to many players.
Good luck completing Triple Trouble on a fully pug-map for example.

People seems to have different standards for different games.
For some games something is challenging if it is challenging for everyone. But in others it is apparently challenging as long as “many people” find it challenging. We should use the same line of thinking for all games otherwise the comparison is rather unfair and faulty.

lordkrall.7241:

Triple Trouble and Tequatl is also still challenging to many players.
Good luck completing Triple Trouble on a fully pug-map for example.

People seems to have different standards for different games.
For some games something is challenging if it is challenging for everyone. But in others it is apparently challenging as long as “many people” find it challenging. We should use the same line of thinking for all games otherwise the comparison is rather unfair and faulty.

There are different types of “challenging”. TT and Tequatl are not challenging to the individual player, there is very little skill involved in doing either of them. Both of them require someone (or a group of people) to herd them to the correct direction and maybe a couple of other players to do specific roles (turrets for example).

That’s not challenging for a good amount of the players participating, the vast majority just stands still AKF and uses auto attacks. Is that challenging? Both events are challenging for those few poor souls who will try to make the event better for everyone else while getting nothing more in return for doing so.

The rest of the players could very well be afk leechers.

Have you done Triple Trouble Wurm?

lordkrall.7241:

Have you done Triple Trouble Wurm?

Triple Trouble is not remotely challenging. It is an organisation and numbers check. Once those are sorted its completely faceroll.

If it was instanced it would have a much higher success rate and noone would still consider it challenging. But its open world so it creates a false sense of challenge. Because we all know how challenging it is to organise pugs on such a large scale.

spoj.9672:

Triple Trouble is not remotely challenging. It is an organisation and numbers check. Once those are sorted its completely faceroll.

Can’t that be said about everything though?
Once you fulfill this and this thing it is a complete faceroll?

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

Yeah except in triple troubles case the “this and this” is only numbers and basic organisation. Whereas in actual challenging fights it requires each individual player to pay attention, contribute and correctly time dodges. The only thing people ever dodge on TT is the spin thing. But if people fail to dodge that it has pretty much no impact on the success of the group.

Besides having to dodge once per burn phase is really engaging. /s

spoj.9672:

lordkrall.7241:

Have you done Triple Trouble Wurm?

Triple Trouble is not remotely challenging. It is an organisation and numbers check. Once those are sorted its completely faceroll.

If it was instanced it would have a much higher success rate and noone would still consider it challenging. But its open world so it creates a false sense of challenge. Because we all know how challenging it is to organise pugs on such a large scale.

^^ This

The most “challenging” part of TT is organizing all the random pugs to follow some very simple directions.

I was doing TT daily with the gw2community for months.

lordkrall.7241:

spoj.9672:

Triple Trouble is not remotely challenging. It is an organisation and numbers check. Once those are sorted its completely faceroll.

Can’t that be said about everything though?
Once you fulfill this and this thing it is a complete faceroll?

I gave examples about real challenging content in GW2. Even you know everything about the Lupicus fight it’s not a faceroll, a mistake will cost you and if you aren’t focused you won’t survive. Or when fighting Liadri, a missed dodge = death. Players need to bring their A game and focus.

Other interesting group fights: Clockheart or the Duo fight in Aetherpath, the Grawl Shaman in Fractals, Main Trin in Fractals.

Simin in Arah P4 used to be another hard encounter until they nerfed her healing to the ground, but aside from her much lowered healing value, it is still an interesting encounter.

spoj.9672:

Yeah except in triple troubles case the “this and this” is only numbers and basic organisation. Whereas in actual challenging fights it requires each individual player to pay attention, contribute and correctly time dodges. The only thing people ever dodge on TT is the spin thing. But if people fail to dodge that it has pretty much no impact on the success of the group.

Besides having to dodge once per burn phase is really engaging. /s

There are plenty of situation with TT where a single player making a mistake can make the event fail actually. The head part for instance. If some people decide to move another place than the main group the wurm might target said player and thus end up in the wrong place for the kill and so on.

Or the color filling thing, if people keep filling it up and going for the kill despite the other two wurms not being ready yet and so on.

lordkrall.7241:

spoj.9672:

Yeah except in triple troubles case the “this and this” is only numbers and basic organisation. Whereas in actual challenging fights it requires each individual player to pay attention, contribute and correctly time dodges. The only thing people ever dodge on TT is the spin thing. But if people fail to dodge that it has pretty much no impact on the success of the group.

Besides having to dodge once per burn phase is really engaging. /s

There are plenty of situation with TT where a single player making a mistake can make the event fail actually. The head part for instance. If some people decide to move another place than the main group the wurm might target said player and thus end up in the wrong place for the kill and so on.

Or the color filling thing, if people keep filling it up and going for the kill despite the other two wurms not being ready yet and so on.

Those won’t happen if everyone follows orders

Exactly.
Just like how things in other oh so challenging encounters in other games won’t happen if people do what they are supposed to do.

lordkrall.7241:

Exactly.
Just like how things in other oh so challenging encounters in other games won’t happen if people do what they are supposed to do.

Going from point A to point B and standing on point C isn’t as the same as using all your skills and cooldowns, dodges at the proper times. It’s one thing to require movement around and to use the skills at your disposal.

Using proper rotations and have excellent timing with your skills is far more demanding that moving from one point to another.

lordkrall.7241:

Exactly.
Just like how things in other oh so challenging encounters in other games won’t happen if people do what they are supposed to do.

Didn’t we have this same discussion a few pages ago?

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

The changes in the 1-15 zones were made specifically to negate something which allegedly came after, that being people not staying with the game, due, evidently, to those introductory portions being too confusing for many new players.

If anet felt it was necessary to simplify the introductory portions just to get people to keep playing, why would they think the people retained due to that simplification would want more ‘challenging’ content later on?

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

The changes in the 1-15 zones were made specifically to negate something which allegedly came after, that being people not staying with the game, due, evidently, to those introductory portions being too confusing for many new players.

If anet felt it was necessary to simplify the introductory portions just to get people to keep playing, why would they think the people retained due to that simplification would want more ‘challenging’ content later on?

It’s called a learning curve for a reason. Some people take more time to invest and when they do they do want to go on…but they still need that time up front. I know this because I’ve seen it with people in my guild. Some of them take a very long time to get better at playing the game, but many of them (not all of them) do make that jump. And most of us will never be the solo dungeon crowd, but we can certainly play the game and become competent at it, even if it takes us longer.

The problem Anet had was that some people couldn’t get in at ground level, or didn’t stay long enough to think they could make that progress. There’s very little more frustrating to some people than not being able to start something at all. Sometimes people need that extra push.

But stereotyping all people who start more slowly as people who’ll never want to do better is simply wrong. A percentage of people will get better if they’re allowed the opportunity to do so. Sometimes it means finding someone to show you the ropes or finding the right guild, but first you have to stay long enough for that to happen.

Challenging content is going to be different to everyone anyway, but there were plenty of people in my guild who couldn’t beat Lupi, who now go through him without dying.