Guild Wars 2

Yes there should be challenging content, and both gamers and developers should remember that casual does not equal easy, and that challenging doesn’t have to be long drawn out fights or missions.

Its possible to play casual and still do hard content, and its possible to have hard fights that are not artificially lengthened with a super high health pool or unavoidable attacks or scripted events!

Silicato.4603:

Firelysm.4967:

Sorry, you have more then enough “easy” content in tyria, i think Expansion HoT should be hardcore and people coming there should be ready for wild wipe. Where casual people have to move out of comfort zone and actually dodge sometimes, it’s a SHAME how easy events are… you guys are insulting me/us players with this low artificial intelligence of bosses. :S

I’m not saying you should do events long and insanely hight HP so we have ot hit it 3 years before it’s dead. I just want mechanics and people to actually work together to achieve something… i’m tired of “scatterer boss events” where ppl stack on the side and just press 11111. Please aNet be more respectful and give us Coloque Queen from Dry top with better mechanics… People who don’t dodge should get 60-100% hp dmg..

Dont need to say sorry ^^
I mean, im not the one who lose if i dont have a game that i dont want XD.
In fact they will lose me as consumer, nothing else.

I just dont see the logic in your reasoning.
GW2 is easy and we bought it, and we play it.
Why making a challenging expansion is going to atract people who bought and play Gw2? if its going to be a different kind of game!

I agree with you that the game, gw2, is easy. And thats why it is a sucess, imo.
And as i say, i hope that im the only one who thinks this way, and people jump into challenging content as crazy. But i already did my prediction: it won’t work. And either they won’t sell as expected or they will have to nerf it and make casual-changes in the future.

And let me finish saying that what i have seen so far from HoT is not difficult. Im not talking about that kind of challenge. What i saw is time consuming events, event chain of 2 hours. Anticasual play. Thats what im talking about.

Compare the cow events in gw2, with the 1 hour chain event in DT, with the 2 hours chain event in east side of Verdant brink. Thats the progression that im watching, and i dont like it at all. All events are easy, but each time are less and less casual cause of the time required to complete them and the number of people needed to complait them.

they are cool, i play in DT and SW. But just as the exception, not as the norm. the game should not be a bunch of 2 hour events. And if it is, no problem, i just have to not buy it.

Sorry Anet stated itself that PvE people are the one that come and go, PvP people are those that stick with the game no matter what. The sad part is many people would want to play PvE just because they think, and ME also, that Arena Net is capable of making interesting challenging content that casual people would enjoy also, and we all know that people that are casual would step up! We don’t need to make this game full casual! This is lame and bad excuse! If you want to stay casual you fear of some kind of challenge that could make you better, you fear to feel accomplished and you know it!

Firelysm.4967:

Sorry Anet stated itself that PvE people are the one that come and go, PvP people are those that stick with the game no matter what. The sad part is many people would want to play PvE just because they think, and ME also, that Arena Net is capable of making interesting challenging content that casual people would enjoy also, and we all know that people that are casual would step up! We don’t need to make this game full casual! This is lame and bad excuse! If you want to stay casual you fear of some kind of challenge that could make you better, you fear to feel accomplished and you know it!

It is not fear it is a matter of like or not. I dont like to spend 2 hours doing a chain event, call me crazy XD.
If you like it ok, it will be your game, not mine.
But your are right, there is a hint of fear in all this:
The actual fear comes in the fact of not knowing if you are going to pay for something that you are not going to like… thats the fear.

look, i just see 4 possible scenarios about all this:

Scenario A: HoT will be challenging at the start, and will remain that way. People who wants that will buy it, people like me who doesnt want that wont buy it. Not at lunch, not ever. The bad part is that after a few months where all players skills have improved, that challenging content will transform into casual content for the people who bought it and played.

Scenario B: Hot will be challenging at the start, and after a few months will be nerfed. Challenge-lovers will buy it, and after a few months (due to the nerfing or due to the improve in their skills), the game will be casual for them. People like me won’t buy the game at the start but we will jump in after nerfing, probabbly as a cheaper price that at launch.

Scenario C: Even after being announced as challenging, HoT will be casual, and will remain that way. Challenge lovers will buy it at launch, but hey will feel scammed. People like me will buy it not on launch day, but probably after a few days or weeks, when we knew the games is actually what we want. So we will pay the higher price too.

Scenario D: Even after being announced as challenging, HoT will be casual at launch. With updates and months, anet will bring more challenge into the table, little by little. Like GW2. Challenge lovers will buy it at launch, and feel scammed, but after a few months and updates they will be able to enjoy the parts of game they like. People like me will buy the game after a few days or weeks at launch price and we will enjoy the game or the parts we like.

Imo, the best scenario for anet is D – high price for everyone and all happy with the pass of time.
The best scenario for me personally would be C or D.
The challenge lovers are condemned to suffer, no matter what, cause is in their nature to transform the challenging into casual and to always want more challenge, but A or D are their best optionts.

But what i expect to happen is the scenario B. Even worst, cause i dont expect to actually be challenging enough at start for challenge lovers, so they will feel scammed too.

And you said it Firelysm, some people will buy HoT only if its challenging or they believe it is challenging. Thats why they will always advertise the game with the “challenge” word on it. To try to sell to that people. But the scenarios are going to be just one of those 4. and no matter what, the challenge lovers will never end satisfied XD.

Lets see. In a few days is the E3 and i expect big announcements regarding HoT on it.

Silicato.4603:

Firelysm.4967:

Sorry Anet stated itself that PvE people are the one that come and go, PvP people are those that stick with the game no matter what. The sad part is many people would want to play PvE just because they think, and ME also, that Arena Net is capable of making interesting challenging content that casual people would enjoy also, and we all know that people that are casual would step up! We don’t need to make this game full casual! This is lame and bad excuse! If you want to stay casual you fear of some kind of challenge that could make you better, you fear to feel accomplished and you know it!

It is not fear it is a matter of like or not. I dont like to spend 2 hours doing a chain event, call me crazy XD.
If you like it ok, it will be your game, not mine.
But your are right, there is a hint of fear in all this:
The actual fear comes in the fact of not knowing if you are going to pay for something that you are not going to like… thats the fear.

look, i just see 4 possible scenarios about all this:

Scenario A: HoT will be challenging at the start, and will remain that way. People who wants that will buy it, people like me who doesnt want that wont buy it. Not at lunch, not ever. The bad part is that after a few months where all players skills have improved, that challenging content will transform into casual content for the people who bought it and played.

Scenario B: Hot will be challenging at the start, and after a few months will be nerfed. Challenge-lovers will buy it, and after a few months (due to the nerfing or due to the improve in their skills), the game will be casual for them. People like me won’t buy the game at the start but we will jump in after nerfing, probabbly as a cheaper price that at launch.

Scenario C: Even after being announced as challenging, HoT will be casual, and will remain that way. Challenge lovers will buy it at launch, but hey will feel scammed. People like me will buy it not on launch day, but probably after a few days or weeks, when we knew the games is actually what we want. So we will pay the higher price too.

Scenario D: Even after being announced as challenging, HoT will be casual at launch. With updates and months, anet will bring more challenge into the table, little by little. Like GW2. Challenge lovers will buy it at launch, and feel scammed, but after a few months and updates they will be able to enjoy the parts of game they like. People like me will buy the game after a few days or weeks at launch price and we will enjoy the game or the parts we like.

Imo, the best scenario for anet is D – high price for everyone and all happy with the pass of time.
The best scenario for me personally would be C or D.
The challenge lovers are condemned to suffer, no matter what, cause is in their nature to transform the challenging into casual and to always want more challenge, but A or D are their best optionts.

But what i expect to happen is the scenario B. Even worst, cause i dont expect to actually be challenging enough at start for challenge lovers, so they will feel scammed too.

And you said it Firelysm, some people will buy HoT only if its challenging or they believe it is challenging. Thats why they will always advertise the game with the “challenge” word on it. To try to sell to that people. But the scenarios are going to be just one of those 4. and no matter what, the challenge lovers will never end satisfied XD.

Lets see. In a few days is the E3 and i expect big announcements regarding HoT on it.

And you still don’t see Scenario E, which is the more likely scenario:
HoT will have all kinds of content for all kinds of players. Problems solved

maddoctor.2738:

And you still don’t see Scenario E, which is the more likely scenario:
HoT will have all kinds of content for all kinds of players. Problems solved

IMPOSSIBLE!

Neox.3497:

maddoctor.2738:

And you still don’t see Scenario E, which is the more likely scenario:
HoT will have all kinds of content for all kinds of players. Problems solved

IMPOSSIBLE!

^This.

Sagat.3285:

Neox.3497:

maddoctor.2738:

And you still don’t see Scenario E, which is the more likely scenario:
HoT will have all kinds of content for all kinds of players. Problems solved

IMPOSSIBLE!

^This.

That was sarcastic btw.

You can’t make challenging content. You can only make new unexpected content. Once a bit of time has passed people figure out a strategy to defeat the new unexpected content and it then you no longer experience the simulated “challenge”.

They would have to constantly rewrite the AI or redo boss skills and sequences to simulate “challenging” content.

The only challenging content you can experience is competitive play with another player around the same skill level as you.

Mo Mo.1947:

You can’t make challenging content. You can only make new unexpected content. Once a bit of time has passed people figure out a strategy to defeat the new unexpected content and it then you no longer experience the simulated “challenge”.

They would have to constantly rewrite the AI or redo boss skills and sequences to simulate “challenging” content.

The only challenging content you can experience is competitive play with another player around the same skill level as you.

I’d say Giganticus Lupicus, Liadri, and some other dungeon bosses like some Aetherpath bosses are still challenging. Even those who are killing them with 100% efficiency will die if they make a few mistakes, sure they learned the mechanics and timing but that doesn’t remove the challenge from them.

maddoctor.2738:

I’d say Giganticus Lupicus, Liadri, and some other dungeon bosses like some Aetherpath bosses are still challenging.

From all that “BIG” (sarcastic) list, only Lupicus was in the core gw2 game….

The rest where updates (like my scenario D). And lupicus was nerfed (so… scenario B ). Liadri is a temporal content, so you cant play it actually… i dont know how can you caunt on her.

HoT wont have difficult content, and you know it. Not now, not ever, they dont want to make its game difficult (and i see it as a wise move, they will win more money that way, at least mine )
If you had the chance to test the last pve beta, you know that everything, every single event or jump was easy.

What it may demand (and you rpobably noticed too if you played beta) is time. Just that. They want us to do long events, or stay X time before and event to organize, take an ip, etc.
If that is the challenge that you are looking for, then congrats, you’ll probably will get it with HoT. But i bet that you will get sick of that gameplay after a month just like everyone.

And Scenario E doesn exist, you cant have a core game both challenging and casual. Either the game is casual with hints or a few stuff of challenge (like GW2) or the game is challenging with a few stuff or casual activities. With time you can change that core game play, but at start only can be casual or challenging.

Colyn was talking about that core game, he said they want it to make it more challenging… ¿reality, or pure marketing? Time will tell, and money and user logs in will decide.

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

I’d say Giganticus Lupicus, Liadri, and some other dungeon bosses like some Aetherpath bosses are still challenging.

From all that “BIG” (sarcastic) list, only Lupicus was in the core gw2 game….

The rest where updates (like my scenario D). And lupicus was nerfed (so… scenario B ). Liadri is a temporal content, so you cant play it actually… i dont know how can you caunt on her.

There is no denying that the game seriously lacked challenging content at release. However that was done because the mechanics were new and fresh. I still remember doing AC Story during BWE and thought that was the hardest piece of content I’ve ever tried, or not being able to pass the first room of TA. That was all because the combat mechanics and the game itself was new. Even things that are easy now were challenging back then because we as a playerbase didn’t know how to play.

They can’t use the same tactic in HoT, we have BUILDS now, we have tactics, we learned how to play the game, how to form synergies and good/optimized parties. They can’t just throw some of the same on us and expect anyone to play the game.

There is a reason content added later on was made harder than the original content, if we follow the same pattern, HoT will also be more difficult than vanilla content and hopefully more challenging than the LS content as well.

HoT wont have difficult content, and you know it. Not now, not ever, they dont want to make its game difficult (and i see it as a wise move, they will win more money that way, at least mine )
If you had the chance to test the last pve beta, you know that everything, every single event or jump was easy.

I’m not sure why you can’t accept that branding an entire expansion as “easy” or “hard” doesn’t make any sense. They already stated that they want the core game to be harder and they already stated that HoT will introduce harder content as well. I don’t see where you get your information that HoT will all be easy.

What it may demand (and you rpobably noticed too if you played beta) is time. Just that. They want us to do long events, or stay X time before and event to organize, take an ip, etc.
If that is the challenge that you are looking for, then congrats, you’ll probably will get it with HoT. But i bet that you will get sick of that gameplay after a month just like everyone.

“Time” is the wrost type of challenge and I doubt time is what they mean by “challenge”, they should’ve said so otherwise.

And Scenario E doesn exist, you cant have a core game both challenging and casual. Either the game is casual with hints or a few stuff of challenge (like GW2) or the game is challenging with a few stuff or casual activities. With time you can change that core game play, but at start only can be casual or challenging.

You say that scenario E cannot exist yet you accept that the game can be casual with few challenges. That’s what scenario E is, what players are asking for is for those “few challenges” to increase in number, but not overtake the casual part. Instead of 99.99% casual, 0.01% challenge, even a 90-10 would be fine.

Colyn was talking about that core game, he said they want it to make it more challenging… ¿reality, or pure marketing? Time will tell, and money and user logs in will decide.

I don’t get why you are so afraid of the word “challenge”, it doesn’t mean it’s now impossible to do the content, it just won’t be easily afkable. If you want to play a game where you stand still afk pressing 1 and win rewards then go play farmville.

maddoctor.2738:

You say that scenario E cannot exist yet you accept that the game can be casual with few challenges. That’s what scenario E is, what players are asking for is for those “few challenges” to increase in number, but not overtake the casual part. Instead of 99.99% casual, 0.01% challenge, even a 90-10 would be fine.

I would sign for that 90-10. ¿But are you sure that is what Colin meant? Im not.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t get why you are so afraid of the word “challenge”, it doesn’t mean it’s now impossible to do the content, it just won’t be easily afkable. If you want to play a game where you stand still afk pressing 1 and win rewards then go play farmville.

Again with the fear…
I repeat: it is not fear, it is dislike.
Do you want to know why i dislike the word (and the fact) “challenge”?
Cause i personally hate to stay long periods of time playing or learning how to play a game. I just dont want to dedicate my spare time to that.
These are not the 80s, we have fast lifes now and we can’t dedicate time to “children games” (cause yes, this is a +12, remember).
If i would want challenges, I’ll join NASA instead of playing GW2 or its expansions XD.
Playing this game i just look for entertainment, fun, and easyness. GW2 brings that to me, lets see if HoT is able to do it too, being “more challenging”…

And dont need to tell me “go play farmville”… thats lame.
I already play GW2 (who is easy enough for my taste) and I know that if HoT is a challenge, i can just not buy it.
I have said it a lot of times before in this thread, you dont need to “advice” me about it, i know i just have the option of not pay and play other things XD. Thats the beauty of the b2p.

If you dont want to play, you dont buy. Simple and easy.
Some people (specially those who bought GW2 thinking it was like GW1) should have known that they had that option XD.
And if HoT is not a challenge at launch or after a few months, i’ll remember you maddoctor, because that option (not buying and going to play anything else) is also yours, like anyone.

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

You say that scenario E cannot exist yet you accept that the game can be casual with few challenges. That’s what scenario E is, what players are asking for is for those “few challenges” to increase in number, but not overtake the casual part. Instead of 99.99% casual, 0.01% challenge, even a 90-10 would be fine.

I would sign for that 90-10. ¿But are you sure that is what Colin meant? Im not.

So you believe the entire expansion will only have hardcore content?

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t get why you are so afraid of the word “challenge”, it doesn’t mean it’s now impossible to do the content, it just won’t be easily afkable. If you want to play a game where you stand still afk pressing 1 and win rewards then go play farmville.

Again with the fear…
I repeat: it is not fear, it is dislike.

Dislike for a part of a game to be more challenging than others? I really don’t get this.

Do you want to know why i dislike the word (and the fact) “challenge”?
Cause i personally hate to stay long periods of time playing or learning how to play a game. I just dont want to dedicate my spare time to that.
These are not the 80s, we have fast lifes now and we can’t dedicate time to “children games” (cause yes, this is a +12, remember).

Yet there are people who want to dedicate time and learn how to be better at playing games. Self improvement is always important. And as I said, it’s fine to have content for lots of player types, the expansion is going to be huge so why can’t it apply to lots of different types of players?

If i would want challenges, I’ll join NASA instead of playing GW2 or its expansions XD.
Playing this game i just look for entertainment, fun, and easyness. GW2 brings that to me, lets see if HoT is able to do it too, being “more challenging”…

And dont need to tell me “go play farmville”… thats lame.
I already play GW2 (who is easy enough for my taste) and I know that if HoT is a challenge, i can just not buy it.
I have said it a lot of times before in this thread, you dont need to “advice” me about it, i know i just have the option of not pay and play other things XD. Thats the beauty of the b2p.

Yet me and other people don’t find standing still auto attacking while afk then collecting rewards fun at all. OR doing chest farms in SW, or joining blobs for world bosses. That’s not entertainment and when it’s the best way to earn rewards in a game it gets dull and annoying. I mentioned Farmville because in that game you can also afk and get rewards.

“More challenge” in HoT doesn’t mean everything will be Liadri difficulty, it just means it won’t be “afk spam easy”. There is a difference between the two you tend to think “challenge = impossible to do for casual players”, I don’t think requiring a bit of movement (and not to stand AFK) and a tiny bit of skill (some more proper rotations/builds) is such an impossible and hard thing for anyone.

Now if there are players that find AFKing and spamming auto attacks so hard then I don’t know what to say about those players. If you find SW farming so hard then I can’t say anything either.