Guild Wars 2

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

EDIT: since there are clearly many ‘passionate’ zerker meta advocates out there who are incredibly quick to jump to the defence of their play style and make assumptions about the agenda of this thread, in order to avoid further illogical, assumptive and aggressive comments, I’d like to clear up that this ISNT an anti-zerk-meta thread. This is a thread seeking to gain an answer as to whether or not there will be options for players who would like to try support roles to be just as viable in team PvE environments.

EDIT 2: just to add my definition of ‘support builds’ for clarity: a support build being a player who has built their character in a way that either maximises or increases focus on the usefulness of their support skills. It’s NOT to say that their one single role in a team is to provide heals and buffs.

Noone knows wait for more info to get released maybe mate

I’m pretty convinced the problem here is not that ppl need to be forced to support because many want to be it by default without being pushed into it. The problem is majority of ppl are being pushed into dps because if it dies before it manages to cause problems it’s the best defense, rather then having to properly defend from it.

My full dps dungeon build provides better support than any silly cleric bunker useless guards.

How long is this going to take to teach ppl that good supporter doesn’t need to sacrifice it’s personal dps. You can do both – support and kill.

This game needs IQ tests during account creation.

Bryzy.2719:

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

You know that almost every class ingame has it’s own way to support a team at the moment? Support does not always mean that you have to support in a defensive way.

Warrior: Offensive Support (Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, For great Justice!, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength)

Ranger: Offensive Support (Frost Spirit, Spotter), Defensive Support (Healing-Spring)

Thief: Stealth.

Elementalist: Offensive Support (Fury & Mightstacking)

Guardian: Defensive Support (Aegis, Protection, Reflect, Absorb)

Mesmer: Defensive Support (Reflect), Portals

Every class has it’s own way to support a group right now. Noone needs a full Support class…

Doctor Faustus.6372:

Bryzy.2719:

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

You know that almost every class ingame has it’s own way to support a team at the moment? Support does not always mean that you have to support in a defensive way.

Warrior: Offensive Support (Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, For great Justice!, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength)

Ranger: Offensive Support (Frost Spirit, Spotter), Defensive Support (Healing-Spring)

Thief: Stealth.

Elementalist: Offensive Support (Fury & Mightstacking)

Guardian: Defensive Support (Aegis, Protection, Reflect, Absorb)

Mesmer: Defensive Support (Reflect), Portals

Every class has it’s own way to support a group right now. Noone needs a full Support class…

Necro would like a word with you.

Thief share venom
Guardian might stacking staff 4

segman.3560:

My full dps dungeon build provides better support than any silly cleric bunker useless guards.

How long is this going to take to teach ppl that good supporter doesn’t need to sacrifice it’s personal dps. You can do both – support and kill.

This game needs IQ tests during account creation.

Way to lower the tone with that last comment.

In response, I would say that not every profession is a viable supporter while in full or high DPS builds. I’m therefore guessing you’re a warrior.

You’re also clearly an advocate of the DPS-is-best meta movement, so I doubt I’d get very far with you given that you clearly prefer that single style of gameplay.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I’m pretty convinced the problem here is not that ppl need to be forced to support because many want to be it by default without being pushed into it. The problem is majority of ppl are being pushed into dps because if it dies before it manages to cause problems it’s the best defense, rather then having to properly defend from it.

no. i can fight lupicus for 10mins or 1h without dying. zerkgear or not.
i do use zerk-gear just to make it faster.
elitists don’t take zerkgear because they cannot dodge – they take zerkgear to make it faster. that bosses actually die before we need to dodge is a problem of to low mob-hp.

Doctor Faustus.6372:

Bryzy.2719:

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

You know that almost every class ingame has it’s own way to support a team at the moment? Support does not always mean that you have to support in a defensive way.

Warrior: Offensive Support (Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, For great Justice!, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength)

Ranger: Offensive Support (Frost Spirit, Spotter), Defensive Support (Healing-Spring)

Thief: Stealth.

Elementalist: Offensive Support (Fury & Mightstacking)

Guardian: Defensive Support (Aegis, Protection, Reflect, Absorb)

Mesmer: Defensive Support (Reflect), Portals

Every class has it’s own way to support a group right now. Noone needs a full Support class…

You’re right. But missing the point.

The support offered by each profession in the current PvE full DPS meta builds is enough for CURRENT content. What I want is additional content that is challenging enough to warrant players using builds that maximise what they can get out of their support role.

This wouldn’t diminish the need for DPS, so all you #MaxDmg fanboys can rest easy if that’s what you prefer to play, but it opens up another viable play style option for the rest of us.

Lazaar.9123:

Doctor Faustus.6372:

Bryzy.2719:

I got quite excited when I saw the devs discussing how they’d be adding a load of much more challenging content with HoT.

I guess I really want to know if it’s challenging enough to mean that some players will have to build almost entirely for support to help their teams win?

I really hope so because the current PvE meta is just power power power. As I will be specialising as a Druid, I’d love to be able to have a solid support build, and in using it I would be seen as a valued member of the team rather than just a dip in the team’s DPS.

You know that almost every class ingame has it’s own way to support a team at the moment? Support does not always mean that you have to support in a defensive way.

Warrior: Offensive Support (Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, For great Justice!, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength)

Ranger: Offensive Support (Frost Spirit, Spotter), Defensive Support (Healing-Spring)

Thief: Stealth.

Elementalist: Offensive Support (Fury & Mightstacking)

Guardian: Defensive Support (Aegis, Protection, Reflect, Absorb)

Mesmer: Defensive Support (Reflect), Portals

Every class has it’s own way to support a group right now. Noone needs a full Support class…

Necro would like a word with you.

“Almost every class” – but who knows? probably necro will get usefull traits with the expansion.

Bryzy.2719:

segman.3560:

My full dps dungeon build provides better support than any silly cleric bunker useless guards.

How long is this going to take to teach ppl that good supporter doesn’t need to sacrifice it’s personal dps. You can do both – support and kill.

This game needs IQ tests during account creation.

Way to lower the tone with that last comment.

In response, I would say that not every profession is a viable supporter while in full or high DPS builds. I’m therefore guessing you’re a warrior.

You’re also clearly an advocate of the DPS-is-best meta movement, so I doubt I’d get very far with you given that you clearly prefer that single style of gameplay.

Your deduction is wrong. Actually I’m a mesmer which is, as you know, one of the worst if not the worst tier of dps (pve wise).

DPS gear doesn’t equal dps build. And current meta is a perfect execution of ideas behind the game – doing dps while actively supporting you team.

Problem is as always with ppl. They don’t want to learn the game, they want to change it. Meta buildcrafters learned the game, put an effort to get the knowledge and share it. The “i want to be a healer” crowd is only whining and crying for more than two years that they’re neglected. Bad news for them – learn the game or change the game.

P.S. nerf zerker, remove zerker, ban everyone with at least one zerker gear piece – nothing is going to change, because out of the limbo new meta will emerge and trust me it won’t be trinity “lf healer” carebear meta

segman.3560:

Bryzy.2719:

segman.3560:

My full dps dungeon build provides better support than any silly cleric bunker useless guards.

How long is this going to take to teach ppl that good supporter doesn’t need to sacrifice it’s personal dps. You can do both – support and kill.

This game needs IQ tests during account creation.

Way to lower the tone with that last comment.

In response, I would say that not every profession is a viable supporter while in full or high DPS builds. I’m therefore guessing you’re a warrior.

You’re also clearly an advocate of the DPS-is-best meta movement, so I doubt I’d get very far with you given that you clearly prefer that single style of gameplay.

P.S. nerf zerker, remove zerker, ban everyone with at least one zerker gear piece – nothing is going to change, because out of the limbo new meta will emerge and trust me it won’t be trinity “lf healer” carebear meta

again, you’re proving you’re difficult to argue with logically because you’re creating false assumptions about my agenda. You assume I’m a part of the “errmahgerrddd nerf Zerk!” Brigade when in fact I enjoy playing zerk builds as much as the next man. I’m an advocate of CHOICE and VARIATION. I don’t want to change the structure of your beloved game, I want to add to it.

As you’ve just admitted, you’re also an advocate of a single meta, which is wrong in too many ways to list.

GW2 has always been about the simple fact that the guy next to you is your support. Nevermind class, build or gear, its the player that is in focus. Some are better, some are worse but thats ok.

I dont see why they should change a winning concept. Not enforcing the trinity is why many people love GW2. They have already made new content much trickier than vanilla, if they continue that its going to be great.

Basically asking for a trinity. Nope.

“As you’ve just admitted, you’re also an advocate of a single meta, which is wrong in too many ways to list.”

And by the way : meta only mean optimal. Optimal is ALWAYS unique. Viable is not. Nothing wrong with that, since we got everything viable here.

So you want more build diversity through less build diversity?

People run full zerker cause its faster and they’ve pretty much mastered the content, but your support builds are perfectly capable of clearing content as well. But since the random cool kids want to clear it faster it needs to be impossible to clear it with zerkers. You see, that’s taking away from build diversity.

And how would you even balance that? Some professions have a baseline high durability. If these cannot endure the fight than there are quite a bunch of builds that did invest heavily into Toughness and Vitality that will also be unable to endure the fight.

Or did you mean go back to the holy trinity where everyone just sits around waiting for 30min till a healer or tank shows up. Because you happen to like playing as a healer/tank and want your build to be enforced on other players, or they shouldn’t get to play the game.

@Dawdler @Kordash @Terrahero

I’m sorry but just where are all these ridiculous ‘oh god he wants trinity’ assumptions coming from? I can’t facepalm hard enough. Im NOT TRYING TO CHANGE BUILDS OR GAME STRUCTURE. I’m trying to add CHOICE for CURRENT build options. Sigh…

Lazaar.9123:

So, as we can see, this is another zerker meta thread in a poor disguise.

Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to say it’s not?? For gods sake 4 out of 5 of my characters are full zerk!

You are asking for the game to REQUIRE a role. Wich is it designed to avoid that all together. It’s as simple as it is.

I would like more challenging content. I would love it. But i don’t want it REQUIRE a party composition, with roles, like in a lot of other games. If i wanted that i would play those (great) games again. ArenaNet already showed us it’s possible.

Bryzy.2719:

@Dawdler @Kordash @Terrahero

I’m sorry but just where are all these ridiculous ‘oh god he wants trinity’ assumptions coming from? I can’t facepalm hard enough. Im NOT TRYING TO CHANGE BUILDS OR GAME STRUCTURE. I’m trying to add CHOICE for CURRENT build options. Sigh…

You’re not asking for CHOICE. You are asking for content to REQUIRE a certain gameplay/build.

Kordash.2197:

Bryzy.2719:

@Dawdler @Kordash @Terrahero

I’m sorry but just where are all these ridiculous ‘oh god he wants trinity’ assumptions coming from? I can’t facepalm hard enough. Im NOT TRYING TO CHANGE BUILDS OR GAME STRUCTURE. I’m trying to add CHOICE for CURRENT build options. Sigh…

You’re not asking for CHOICE. You are asking for content to REQUIRE a certain gameplay/build.

I take your point, I would revise my thread title (if I could..) as it doesn’t reflect what I’m trying to ask. Instead of saying ‘demand’ I should say ‘give more value to’. The game has very little variation in how teammates interact with each other. I have no problems with rolling full zerk, but some professions can offer far more team support than others while being full zerk.

It seems to me the OP (rather naively) is asking for more support builds to be viable widely used and accepted.
I say naively, because every “dungeon meta player” knows 99% of meta builds are support oriented in one form or another. In my experience those builds carry over perfectly fine to open world group content.

Open world solo(ish) stuff like many of the old maps where you blaze around on your own.. sure selfish dps builds tend to reign. but thats because those mobs are designed to be easier to kill.

• new player loads into caladon, gets 1shotted.*
  new player"wtf man?"
• ragequit*
  ^ this is why the majority of open world is pretty darn easy.

Also, I suspect expansion, like silverwastes/dry top is not meant for noobs, unlike many other zones you may enter while levelling up your first character. So yeah.. support builds will likely be much more widely used in the expansion open world zones.

PS: this is about builds, and the what a player might be aiming to achieve tactically and strategically. Not about “zerker meta”. So its not another one of those threads as far as I can tell.

The supporting style and interaction with each other is actually the CORE of the Zerker Meta.

People fail to see that, only because of the stat combo. If they did the theory crafting behind it, they would see that the main question is “how do we prevent getting downed all together by interacting with each other at the minimal cost in term of DPS loss ?”

The support is already fine in the game, within this current game design.

Ah yeah, and by the way, the support is actually insanely strong in the game. Giving more value to it will only make it easier for everyone, and reduce the challenge.

Support is as big in this game as dps. Maybe its not the kind of support you want but most profession have support meta build and even dps meta build have quit a good amount of support.

Protection, Weakness, Vulnerability, Might, Fury, Vigor, Blind, Aegis, Reflect, Condition Removal, etc. Some are underused, and the content is not hard enough so we don’t really need to go too strong in the support, but support is still super important in most dungeon/fractals. But i’m curious because you seem reasonable, what kind of support you would want more? Give precise example pls.

Kordash.2197:

Ah yeah, and by the way, the support is actually insanely strong in the game. Giving more value to it will only make it easier for everyone, and reduce the challenge.

I’m not sure you understand what I mean by ‘giving more value to’ support (just purely going off what you said there, so I could be mistaken). I don’t mean support skills/builds need buffs or changes. By ‘more value’ I mean that those existing builds that put more focus on support aspects are more rewarding/useful than they currently are. In other words, adding different PvE content may change the need for certain builds in players tackling it.

Again, this is just going off what you said there. You say that giving more value to support would ‘only make it easier for everyone’ (which is why I think you’ve misunderstood what I meant by ‘value’), but then surely if that were the case there would be a much bigger support build meta than there currently is, since people tend to play in the most efficient manner – i.e. the meta. If having more support meant more efficiency as you stated, then it would be in the meta right now.

My postulation is that, what if HoT creates new PvE content that is much more challenging than current PvE content (which is what the devs have said will happen), and that then creates a greater need for those people who focus on support builds? Again, for clarity – I’m not talking about buffing or changing support-optimisation builds that already exist – I’m talking about new PvE content rewarding those support builds just as much as it currently rewards the efficiency of the DPS meta.

Thaddeus.4891:

Support is as big in this game as dps. Maybe its not the kind of support you want but most profession have support meta build and even dps meta build have quit a good amount of support.

Protection, Weakness, Vulnerability, Might, Fury, Vigor, Blind, Aegis, Reflect, Condition Removal, etc. Some are underused, and the content is not hard enough so we don’t really need to go too strong in the support, but support is still super important in most dungeon/fractals. But i’m curious because you seem reasonable, what kind of support you would want more? Give precise example pls.

Please read EDIT 2 in my original post.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Brahmincorle.1264:

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

The pessimist in me thinks this will probably be the case…

But for it to be just as viable that mean that zerker wont be as viable as it is now for people since they will need none zerker support players all of a sudden

Edit
And im not a zerker none of my chars is speced in it so i dont play that meta at all and have no problem finding groups and doing content abit slower

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Simply put: there don’t need to be changes to builds and skills. Adding content that is much more challenging will create different metas by itself.

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

Edit
Looks to me that you want to force a coexistanse bettwen zerkers and support but this will now work in a game were everyone are supposed to clear content at diffrent speeds

Zerker gear and support are not mutually exclusive. I think a lot of us thought, initially, that you chose between the “new trinity” of damage, control, and support. In reality, it works best if EVERY player focuses on ALL THREE of those.

All players should deal good damage.

All players should have control skills and know when to use them.

All players should bring support skills to help their teammates.

Support is a VERY important part of this game now, and asking for a larger role for support is a pretty clear indicator that you don’t have a deep understanding of how the game works. That’s fine, not everybody needs to have a PhD in GW2… but that’s why you get all these responses you don’t like.

It’s sort of like saying football would be better if you could just run the ball because I’m tired of all this passing and I like playing running back.

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

That’s exactly what I’ve said I’m hoping will change in HoT.

Atm you can clear any content on any class at verying speeds and difficulty if you get your way you will have to have specific people for said content thats against their philosopy

timmyf.1490:

Zerker gear and support are not mutually exclusive. I think a lot of us thought, initially, that you chose between the “new trinity” of damage, control, and support. In reality, it works best if EVERY player focuses on ALL THREE of those.

All players should deal good damage.

All players should have control skills and know when to use them.

All players should bring support skills to help their teammates.

Support is a VERY important part of this game now, and asking for a larger role for support is a pretty clear indicator that you don’t have a deep understanding of how the game works. That’s fine, not everybody needs to have a PhD in GW2… but that’s why you get all these responses you don’t like.

It’s sort of like saying football would be better if you could just run the ball because I’m tired of all this passing and I like playing running back.

It’s not about answers I ’don’t like’, it’s about answers that are illogical or miss my point.

I agree that it would work best if players focused on all three of what you stated; I agree with your philosophy. But your philosophy isn’t how it is in the game.

What if the meta of this game was support-focused builds, and I was a zerk player who posted this thread asking for a more rewarding experience for zerker players? You would be saying the same to me as what you’ve just said now.

The reality is the most viable way of clearing current content is with full zerk teams.

Bryzy.2719:

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

That’s exactly what I’ve said I’m hoping will change in HoT.

Why, what do your way do better then the current way?
Now all can do the content not as fast mind you but all can.
After your things are implemented all cant do content since they have to be this this and that or they will fail automaticly.

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

That’s exactly what I’ve said I’m hoping will change in HoT.

Why, what do your way do better then the current way?
Now all can do the content not as fast mind you but all can.
After your things are implemented all cant do content since they have to be this this and that or they will fail automaticly.

Just like everyone else, you’re making false conclusions out of what I’m saying.

I’m not saying people HAVE to be FULL support or FULL healer or FULL tank to clear the new content. That WOULD be trinity. What I’m saying is that to make for less linear and more diverse gameplay, there needs to be a greater need for support aspects of CURRENT builds. At this point in time, all that needs to happen to clear content is for there to be a big old group of zerker-specced players doing max damage as quickly as they can. It’s mindless content. There’s no skill involved; no teamwork. It’s BORING.

To many players, GW2’s combat design is broken. “Learning how to play” a broken game will not automatically means players will suddenly enjoy playing a broken game.

Look, I love games like Final Fantasy VIII, where the mechanics are so broken, you can have a party to defeat the final boss right before you fight the first boss. You must “learn” how to acchieve that, you must “learn the game”, and as I am a perfectionist kind of player, I love doing that. But is that game better for it? I don’t know. To your average player, it’ll be a boring GF spamfest or they will feel the poor progression pacing as they play it.

Back to GW2, the community might have found the importance of support and control in PvE, after months/ years of breaking the game. But ultimately, GW2 and its devs are consistently pushing for and hyping new stat sets, and the game is presenting them with equal importance to zerker gear. Ultimately, stuns, KDs, heals, conditions and defensive sets are highly impactful in PvP, and devs are consistently balancing them to remain that way, as it is shown in every patch notes ever, while PvE simply ignores it due to how broken it is. You don’t need to be a genius to understand that not even Anet agrees with the actual state of PvE meta game, and that becomes even clearer when you read some of their posts.

So no, this is not “working as intended”. And no, “learning how to play a broken game” won’t make it any less broken. There might exist good examples of how support is meaningful, for every good example there’ll be a bad one.

Also, we can go a bit further and create a new argument that is not merely about balance. Immersion. The more distinct each role is from each other, the stronger they will be thematically. If most builds are to play similarly (DPSing with zerker gear and predictable rotations, while supporting with even more DPS buffs/ debuffs, and throwing the occasional reflection or aegis), then that sense of distinction won’t be clear between roles. Thematic strenght is very important (why do you think Anet is adding specializations?), and for it to be at its best, half of this game’s unique mechanics souldn’t be ignored as they currently are.

Finally, the problem with the archaic trinity system was never that it had roles. “Roles”, by itself, is a good thing. It brings many positives to any game. The gaming playerbase, in general, absolutely loves roles. That’s why profession/ class systems are so popular. The problem with the archaic holy trinity, is that it needs to be improved. It’s too strict, places too much reponsability on two out of the three roles, and the popularity between roles is very uneven, leading to huge queues for DPSers.

GW2 never wanted to be a game without trinity. It wanted to replace the old trinity with a new one, instead. And the new one is, on paper, much more sophisticated. Healing and tanking evolved into the less rigid support and control setups, DPSing was meant to evolve into “general damage”, where bursting and aoe were intentionally meant to be as important as DPS, and everyone would be able to bring a decent amount of damage and self-survivability. On paper, this is great. It pretty much fixes the problems with the old trinity. Support and control builds would still exist, damage methods would be more diversified, the “everyone would be able to DPS” concept would make all roles more evenly popular, and responsability would be more evenly distributed to each player.

But in practice, it failed hard. The entire stat system is not appropriate to this game, and very inferior to what GW1 offered. It works in trinity games where healing and tanking must be maximed, but it doesn’t works in this game. GW1, in comparison, offered active stats that directly tied to how effective control and non-healing support skills would be, becoming a necessity if you ever wanted them to be meaningful at all. Another thing that GW1 was superior than GW2, was by offering combat content without defiance. Its solution was to have PvE content mimic PvP’s, where you would fight against a well-built party of enemies with decent AI, instead of a single foe. AoE, mass control, healing and protection, minion mastery, burst damage, were all key to victory, not simply dps, offensive support and the occasional “let’s block their big attacks” support. Condition stacks did exist, in the original, though, and that was equally a problem with condition damage there.

So far, and unfortunately, GW1 is the evolution of GW2’s concepts, when it should have be the opposite.

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

Nobody can come up with such design in 20 minutes or day or maybe even weeks and im not paid to do so ;-)

Btw I agree with you, this game is all about killing and since they removed tanks and healers, anything else but DPS is worthless.

Bryzy.2719:

Linken.6345:

Bryzy.2719:

silvermember.8941:

Arenanet should get rid of certain worthless stats. And just focus on power, precision, ferocity, cond, vita and toughness.

They will have to come with clever boss design and balance this encounter super carefuly to be doable with every composition (5x full zerker,5x full support or mix of both )

In conclusion, so far they have shown to be lazy to deal with something like that. So no… more punching bags with no need for support builds.

Why don’t you give an example on how you would do it.

If the game is about killing stuff, would the stats the favor killing stuff faster be viable if you have the skill?

Unless you change all the fights to involve not killing stuff support stats are worthless. This is true even with games that have the Trinity, the bulk of the damage is done by DPs classes with support being spam bots.

In response – a couple of different scenario examples.

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

A boss fight in which there are many, smaller enemies attacking your team. This creates a greater risk of enemies attacking/CCing you individually and therefore a greater need for support. Because players who have spec’d for full zerk would have insufficient means to look after themselves (apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-), they’d rely more heavily on players dishing out the support.

Ok and since this is play how you want now explain how full zerk only player teams will be able to finish this content to please

That’s exactly what I’ve said I’m hoping will change in HoT.

I’ll say it AGAIN : you want the game to REQUIRE your idea of support as a role.
The whole game is designed to avoid that. Asking for that is completly pointless, and it’s not going to happen (unless you want to destroy what made the success of the game and it’s interest).

And btw, the whole meta is about bringing enough support to stay alive.

“(apart from warriors, who can do friggin everything with a pure zerk build anyway -.-)”
Wrong. Every class can do so.

Bryzy.2719:

Please read EDIT 2 in my original post.

That don’t answer my question. Edit 2 was simply, ‘’would be nice to have specialist in support, but not a single guys that heal and buff’‘. That doesn’t give what specific support you would want. What specifically you would want to change. The builds and how support work now? Or only change how encounter work to make them harder so we need to use more of our current support?

Bryzy.2719:

A single boss fight that hits hard in AoEs, puts out more CC, puts out more condition damage (compared with single boss fights we have currently in the game). DPS players will go down quicker than popped balloons without adequate stability, regen, vigor, protection, heals etc. In this scenario, no support-optimised players = dead DPS players = no dead boss.

From that i guess that’s the second choice? But here is the thing. It wouldn’t work the way you intend it to work. You probably don’t know that, but when they first introduced fractal there was way to get up to level 80 (even more). Back then we didn’t have enough AR to survive past level 40 so each single agony attack would almost instant kill you. Not down, but dead. Boss would hit you like a truck and would take forever to kill. And you know what? It didn’t change anything. It was harder, we brought more support and more skill to the table, but that’s it. It was all zerker, it was guardian and mesmer with reflect. We already can bring stability, regen, vigor, protection, etc. We already do this without needing to spec that much into them. Most ppl fight harder boss in range like Lupi or Archdiviner level 50. If they would melee those? Then whey would need more support. Don’t think much ppl can melee archdiviner for the whole fight without some protection and skale venom. With harder content, we start to figure out each and every single attack of the boss to not waste our dodge. We bring mesmer and guardian to help us out, we take potion, we take skale venom. We bring any advantage we can bring to the table. But in the end, there will always be the option to range it so that everybody will be able to complete the content even if they are not prepare correctly. And that won’t change, because that one of the core element of this game. There will always be a way to complete any content with any group.

I see what you are saying about a more supportive role for professions, but the problem is the mechanic of the game. It’s designed to give you more of a “I can solo” feel. In structured, for instance, you could have a “team” of 2 players each having specific set ups. Each, however could hold their own depending on the circumstances. In GW1, however, even with slpit teams/professions, everybody was set up to work as an integral part of a whole. Team play and communication was paramount. Support professions were TRULY support professions.
Again, I THINK I understand where you are coming from, but with this type of game mechanic I highly doubt it would come about because any profession/professions that truly are given abilities/skills that would enable a more functional support ability would become OP.

And.. we are back to people thinking berserker gear means you are not playing a support role.

Support/dps/control roles can be done (almost*) equally well in berserkers as they can in clerics, soldiers, sinisters or nomads.

*healing power can improve support slightly. But then you are by and large responsible for your own healing, making this a largely selfish stat (completely contrary to support) anyways.

Evidently there is a lack of understanding how support roles are played, and how integral they already are to completing content in all berserkers gear.

There is a reason many teams take a hammer guardian in high level fractals.
Or a mace/focus for mossman. <— I personally run this for cof p3 final boss too.
Or a reflect mesmer in ta:ae.

bosses that also have trash mobs attacking you?
Spider queen in AC has that.
Kholer has that.
Aldus stormbringer (hotw p1) has that.

Bosses with CC?
Vinewraith thrasher seems to have a 20 second stun periodically.
Impasse Mark IV (SE p1) spams interrupts with one of its skills.

Hard hitting AoE?
Subject alpha has some pretty nasty aoes.

The things being asked for are already in the game. Would I like more level 80 zones including these mechanics? Yes. EXP mode dungeons should be level 80 anyway, but that would make dungeons officially “endgame content” which many people (including anet it seems) wish to avoid.

Support is already integral.
Would I like it buffed? Sure! It’d make everything even easier. But people are here asking for things to be harder. This thread has become self contradictory. Through sheer ignorance by the looks of things.

May I just direct everyone towards the fact that Anet are creating SPECIALISATIONS with HoT??

That in itself says they recognise the fact that there needs to be disparity between professions and role-taking in the game for it to be fun to play. So regardless of what you all say about role-taking being bad or ‘oh noes we can’t have da trinity’ – too late because that’s what Anet are leaning towards with this expansion.

Absolutely zero trinity will never happen in any MMO. The linear gameplay that GW2 has right now with its PvE set-up advocating a single meta is BORING. Plain and bloody simple. There’s no meta diversity, no variation and no tactical thought. Just mindless zergs of #MaxZerkOmg players running around seeing who can do the most damage.

Bryzy.2719:

May I just direct everyone towards the fact that Anet are creating SPECIALISATIONS with HoT??

That in itself says they recognise the fact that there needs to be disparity between professions and role-taking in the game for it to be fun to play. So regardless of what you all say about role-taking being bad or ‘oh noes we can’t have da trinity’ – too late because that’s what Anet are leaning towards with this expansion.

Absolutely zero trinity will never happen in any MMO. The linear gameplay that GW2 has right now with its PvE set-up advocating a single meta is BORING. Plain and bloody simple. There’s no meta diversity, no variation and no tactical thought. Just mindless zergs of #MaxZerkOmg players running around seeing who can do the most damage.

l2p.

Bryzy.2719:

May I just direct everyone towards the fact that Anet are creating SPECIALISATIONS with HoT??

That in itself says they recognise the fact that there needs to be disparity between professions and role-taking in the game for it to be fun to play. So regardless of what you all say about role-taking being bad or ‘oh noes we can’t have da trinity’ – too late because that’s what Anet are leaning towards with this expansion.

Absolutely zero trinity will never happen in any MMO. The linear gameplay that GW2 has right now with its PvE set-up advocating a single meta is BORING. Plain and bloody simple. There’s no meta diversity, no variation and no tactical thought. Just mindless zergs of #MaxZerkOmg players running around seeing who can do the most damage.

A good point. It’s a possibility. As of the zerging issue, yeah. Unless you are actually GUIDING the zerg, it is just mind numbing following it around. I wouldn’t have a bigger team than 20 going after keeps and have smaller teams of 5 running round mostly harrassing and taking camps on multiple servers. A lot more coordinating and less mind numbing, IMHO. OH! And we will have to learn how to keep the keeps now since they will be more rewarding to keep! In the early release of GW2, that’s what my guild did.

I really hope that other playstyles will be more rewarding.
Damage is nice and good, but on the long run I find it gets rather dull to have just one meta. Don’t get me wrong, blasting away most mobs with just a few pokes of the auto-attack still feels rewarding.

My main is an ele.
I got two builds I use. One is a simple staff zerker-build with full zerker-gear, 6-6-0-0-2. It’s fun to shred through the mobs and utilizing my skills for crowd-control plus some healing still feels nice. Not to forget: the might.
However, I find my second built more fun to play at times. A full celestial gear, staff support-build, 0-0-6-2-6. A signet heavy, low dmg-build. But boy, throw me into a group of zerkers and see how the rate at which they drop decreases.
I switch through the attunements, heal, remove conditions, control the mobs, dish out a bit of damage and might at the same time. I’m mostly tanky enough to pick up players who are downed in DoT-fields. But with the lower damage I can count on less loot. And when I forget to switch back to zerker before I enter a dungeon, I get hate-comments from randoms in party-chat, before I even use my first skill.