Guild Wars 2

scale of 1-10 10 being the biggest disadvantage not having HoT for elite skills ect is it not having the expansion in wvw? is it a big or little or medium disadvantage thanks

Depends on your class and build. Lots of meta build still don’t use Elite Specs in WvW.

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

4 could be a figure I guess.
The biggest problem is not, not having HoT. The biggest problem is the loneliness you will experience because people got fed up with 3 year old promises not delivered upon.

id say medium due to not having all the builds you could have but not necessary either

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

Totally false. Elite specializations were advertised as “just another build option” but the reality is that having them makes you significantly stronger.

Lord Kuru.3685:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

Totally false. Elite specializations were advertised as “just another build option” but the reality is that having them makes you significantly stronger.

In sPvP? Yes, undoubtedly. Anet was shameless in their intentional power creep to get the pvp crowd to purchase the xpac.

In WvW things aren’t so black and white. Some builds are better but some still rely heavily on base skills and traits to the point that not having the elites won’t make a huge impact.

You’re still going to be using a staff on Ele for example.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

I disagree. A vanilla Mes can still get by O.K but for the most part HoT specs tend to outshine core builds. Just the passives and trait synergy provide a pretty notable difference in performance and some of the skills are just really good. Add the account bound HoT upgrades and whatnot to that. And then there is the Revenant with all it’s umm interesting design choices.

10 imo …the new specializations not only add a new character revenant, but makes your old characters completely new with different ways of playing.

so for example, as a druid you can heal your team in between playing sniper. It really adds new build and strategy choices for how you want to play the game.

I don’t play my main as much as i use to since all these new options became available. And gliding is a new hobby – watching the game map from in the air is a whole new experience in both hot and tyria.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.

Well they weren’t meant to be but currently there are a few that certainly qualify as a massive step up in power from their baseline counterparts. But it could also be argued in some cases that is because of how underpowered some of the base classes are compared to others in competitive content.

This is the very core reason I will not be playing anymore. Used to love playing WvW. But by isolating & segregating the base players (who already bought the base game) from the versatility of playing the new class specs. Adds a natural unbalance based on upon who bought HoT.

Lets use baseball as a example. Lets say you cant have out fielders position unless you pay for it. Sure you can play without it. But your team will have a huge advantage if you and others on your team did.

Sounds kind of far fetched. But that lack of balance is the very reason GW2 will not be a “esport” that Anet wanted to tout that it is or was.

When zerging you can still do reasonably well without access to elite specs.

When roaming (solo or small scale) you’re nothing but a walking loot bag for anyone with access to elite specs.

Substance E.4852:

Lord Kuru.3685:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

Totally false. Elite specializations were advertised as “just another build option” but the reality is that having them makes you significantly stronger.

In sPvP? Yes, undoubtedly. Anet was shameless in their intentional power creep to get the pvp crowd to purchase the xpac.

In WvW things aren’t so black and white. Some builds are better but some still rely heavily on base skills and traits to the point that not having the elites won’t make a huge impact.

You’re still going to be using a staff on Ele for example.

Yes well that’s true, but in general elite specs are a definite power boost compared to core specs and guilds without a guild hall, so I would argue that by introducing HoT the competition in WvW has been diminished to an all-time low.

makku.2508:

When roaming (solo or small scale) you’re nothing but a walking loot bag for anyone with access to elite specs.

Pretty much this. Though, as a veteran roamer I have been able to kill less skilled players with elite specs, they had a big advantage over me. Reaper for example is way harder to kill on my core warrior running GS & Sword/Shield, and I definitely cannot win against skilled players. Luckily I haven’t forgotten when to dash. :P

The problems with the meta builds are, that these builds put you in one direction of gameplay. In the zergs I’ve run lately, many commander/lieutenants still haven’t accepted yet, that the reaper specialisation is a melee not a range class anymore (old meta). So they put them all together in one group without any guardian or a profession who gives stability, and then they wonder why either the reapers rage-quit or they lose fights. Seen lately 7 of 10 reapers left the raid within a minute, after a new lieutenant have changed the groups and fights which were won earlier went suddenly into a massacre of your own group. I didn’t stay long too, after the next lieutenant put all reapers into a group again. So, on a personal necromancer pov, not having HoT isn’t a problem.

Menaki.6329:

The problems with the meta builds are, that these builds put you in one direction of gameplay. In the zergs I’ve run lately, many commander/lieutenants still haven’t accepted yet, that the reaper specialisation is a melee not a range class anymore (old meta). So they put them all together in one group without any guardian or a profession who gives stability, and then they wonder why either the reapers rage-quit or they lose fights. Seen lately 7 of 10 reapers left the raid within a minute, after a new lieutenant have changed the groups and fights which were won earlier went suddenly into a massacre of your own group. I didn’t stay long too, after the next lieutenant put all reapers into a group again. So, on a personal necromancer pov, not having HoT isn’t a problem.

Tell me about it, having the same problem on my scrapper

Regarding the topic at hand, if you roam then having HoT is a potentially big advantage over stock classes. Its not just “alternative” builds. Most are plain better. When zerging the difference is much more diffuse but even there some classes get a distinct advantage i HoT specs.

All other things being equal you are more likely to do better with HoT than without in WvW.

Some do not get as much benefit than others though and many warriors are better off without the elite spec.

Most professions gain over a similarly equipped and skilled opponent without HoT. For this reason Elite Specs should not have been introduced into WvW or PvP at all.

Serious.7083:

Most professions gain over a similarly equipped and skilled opponent without HoT. For this reason Elite Specs should not have been introduced into WvW or PvP at all.

Then good luck getting anybody to buy HoT.

Serious.7083:

All other things being equal you are more likely to do better with HoT than without in WvW.

Some do not get as much benefit than others though and many warriors are better off without the elite spec.

Most professions gain over a similarly equipped and skilled opponent without HoT. For this reason Elite Specs should not have been introduced into WvW or PvP at all.

Right – they have them in PvP but not WvW? How would you do that?

A.Net can’t even fix the most basic things (like arrow carts being used even w/o line of sight) and you want them to do something complicated?

You can get by with most classes well enough. Some classes such as staff elementalist and some mesmer builds are still very strong and meta. Most classes are at a big disadvantage with the missing elites.

Straegen.2938:

You can get by with most classes well enough. Some classes such as staff elementalist and some mesmer builds are still very strong and meta. Most classes are at a big disadvantage with the missing elites.

^Pretty much this. There’s vanilla builds you can run and get by fine, especially if you’re good and have experience against all Professions. But the HoT Elite specs are a big upgrade over vanilla. Some are HUGE upgrades. I would make a guess that the larger scale you are fighting in, the better off you are on a vanilla build. Roaming or dueling might not be as fun. I can imagine that you can find a somewhat viable build for the profession(s) you play if you ask around or do some searching online…..

To me the difference between the uplevel rally bots that were removed are the same comparison to CORE and ELITE specs…

So we should just remove Elite specs from WvW or give everyone access to it like in PvP…

The levelling system in WvW is broken. 200+ tower flips to level the spec, and once you have levelled it you have to switch back to a class thats subpar again just to relevel the spec because everyone tied to Elites in soulbound, even if you have 3 Necro, you have to level all 3 Necro Elites.

sephiroth.4217:

So we should just remove Elite specs from WvW or give everyone access to it like in PvP…

Players have always had to level their classes to unlock class abilities. I get that some parts of the system are universal such as WvW levels but why should leveling an elementalist also level every other class on an account?

This isn’t PvP with the objective of creating an equal playing field. In WvW players have to earn their class skills before they can use them whether it be going from 1 to 80 or leveling the elite spec. This is the same system in most MMOs and the same one since day one in GW2.

Straegen.2938:

sephiroth.4217:

So we should just remove Elite specs from WvW or give everyone access to it like in PvP…

Players have always had to level their classes to unlock class abilities. I get that some parts of the system are universal such as WvW levels but why should leveling an elementalist also level every other class on an account?

This isn’t PvP with the objective of creating an equal playing field. In WvW players have to earn their class skills before they can use them whether it be going from 1 to 80 or leveling the elite spec. This is the same system in most MMOs and the same one since day one in GW2.

True if this was towards your argument but mine was directed at the action taken towards uplevels and the comparison between uplevels vs 80 and now CORE vs Elite.

As for " why should leveling an elementalist also level every other class on an account?"… I don’t believe that at all, I believe that if you level 1 Necro Elite, it should unlock the Necro Elite, it should be account bound. I was a toonaholic, 3-4 of every class all with various builds for different situations, It’s torture to sit there and level the same skill tree 4 times, it’s almost borderline punishment for being one of those customers who regularly supported the game by purchasing all those character slots, gear, bag tabs, make over kits, transmutation stones, food, utilities, toys and so on.

So as to WvW, why remove uplevels (Rally bots) if having core and elite builds yield the same results? Why is my enemy or ally always subpar build? Why is that poor Mesmer using his Chronomancer tree with only enough points to hold a shield? He’s practically missing a whole skill tree right there, but hey guess I can go sneeze on him for a challenging kill because that’s always fun.

We can level our specs anywhere yes this is true, but in PvP if you’re level 10, you get level 80 stats to compete… PvE is no different either, you are level 3 and you have a selection of 3-4 maps aiming at levels 1-15 to explore or if you are over levelled then your stats are reduced to match the maps.

Edit: If Elite specs were available to all paying customers in WvW, then maybe some guilds might be able to get guild builds active again for zerg busting, GvG and other scenarios… (I think most people know how often most zerg busting guilds would class switch and build switch to help synergise the rest of the guild members raiding)

You can play WvW without HoT just fine, the only disadvantage being that you don’t have as many options to choose from. And maybe some guilds not wanting you to join because they use the elite spec as guild build. Apart from that most classes are still viable without the new specializations. I’ve actually noticed a minor trend of people switching back to old (pre HoT) builds.

Straegen.2938:

sephiroth.4217:

So we should just remove Elite specs from WvW or give everyone access to it like in PvP…

Players have always had to level their classes to unlock class abilities. I get that some parts of the system are universal such as WvW levels but why should leveling an elementalist also level every other class on an account?

You can skip the normal leveling with Tomes of Knowledge and Experience Scrolls. For the elite specs there’s no such shortcut. You either have to farm hero points in PvE or rank up in WvW which can both be very time consuming.

Substance E.4852:

Lord Kuru.3685:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

Totally false. Elite specializations were advertised as “just another build option” but the reality is that having them makes you significantly stronger.

In sPvP? Yes, undoubtedly. Anet was shameless in their intentional power creep to get the pvp crowd to purchase the xpac.

In WvW things aren’t so black and white. Some builds are better but some still rely heavily on base skills and traits to the point that not having the elites won’t make a huge impact.

You’re still going to be using a staff on Ele for example.

And that staff ele is much stronger with tempest traits and utilities. Doesn’t have to be full HoT build, for example staff ele now with HoT heal and reflect on utility has better survival than vanilla ele, add excellent dmg in melee with overloads, heals/condi cleanse and stab with overloads. While there are few builds that need vanilla traits for certain situations, big majority are better off with HoT elites.

In Gw1 they added class changes all the time without it affecting the actual PvP game mode. I do not think Gw2 should be any different in that regard. Though one of the problems with the way they implemented new classes was making them too OP to sell expansions then Nerf them later. I don’t think they should ban classes from WvW, they just need to make sure everything has a counter, that classes are designed equally to keep it balanced.

Hexalot.8194:

Serious.7083:

Most professions gain over a similarly equipped and skilled opponent without HoT. For this reason Elite Specs should not have been introduced into WvW or PvP at all.

Then good luck getting anybody to buy HoT.

I disagree with Serious in that I think it’s okay to have elite specs in SPvP and WvW available.

What I do think is that the core specs need to be brought up in some ways so they are as useful as elite specs. Of course it’s okay that elite specs bring something new to the table, and they give you a different strategy of some sort, but elite specs as a downright buff to core specs is wrong.

And on the “Good luck getting anybody to buy HoT”: it never hurts to have better balance. PvP players who have the feeling they get wrecked by specs that are behind a paywall are less likely to play the game AND less likely to buy the expac.

A PvP player wants a leveled, competitive environment with a lot of diversity. That’s what is lacking right now.

Hexalot.8194:

Serious.7083:

Most professions gain over a similarly equipped and skilled opponent without HoT. For this reason Elite Specs should not have been introduced into WvW or PvP at all.

Then good luck getting anybody to buy HoT.

Whole point is WvW only peeps, and PvP ones too got very little positive stuff out of HoT and a great deal of negative. Worse, anyone on a free account is at a disadvantage in both.

Then a free account can play WvW forever with the same stats that we started with. I think they were a bit too generous with that. A month of free play would have been better.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Right – they have them in PvP but not WvW? How would you do that?

A.Net can’t even fix the most basic things (like arrow carts being used even w/o line of sight) and you want them to do something complicated?

As this relates to WvW I omitted PvP, that is a different environment. it has it’s own stats provided by an amulet.

Actually I would make the change there too, you have free accounts in both areas and those are disadvantaged.

[quote=6030359;Hexalot.8194:][quote=6030373;Dusty Moon.4382:][quote=6031785;Sirendor.1394:]

“A PvP player wants a leveled, competitive environment with a lot of diversity. That’s what is lacking right now.”

That’s my feeling exactly! Players in hockey don’t pay the NHL or the referee for a special High Sticking ability without serious repercussions. Both teams should have access to the same skills & abilities regardless on how much they spent on training, equipment, ect…..

Allowing them to do so defeats the entire purpose of the match. Not to mention the NHL wouldn’t be around much longer if they did allow it.

Straegen.2938:

sephiroth.4217:

So we should just remove Elite specs from WvW or give everyone access to it like in PvP…

Players have always had to level their classes to unlock class abilities. I get that some parts of the system are universal such as WvW levels but why should leveling an elementalist also level every other class on an account?

This isn’t PvP with the objective of creating an equal playing field. In WvW players have to earn their class skills before they can use them whether it be going from 1 to 80 or leveling the elite spec. This is the same system in most MMOs and the same one since day one in GW2.

Question, why do players have to game at a disadvantage while leveling in WvW? or use sup par equipment? Really it just doesn’t make sense.

It does make sense in PvE, the problem is anet identified WvW and PvE to be effectively the same.

At present any character being put into WvW gets automatically leveled to 80. It would make sense if all of their equipment stats were also leveled to 80 too, regardless of the actual equipment carried.

It isn’t PvP? I think you are wrong. Actually it’s large scale PvP. An equal playing field is exactly what we should be trying for here, it would mean that a player’s personal skill mattered more than what equipment they have.

Some core classes are still strong and viable. Mantra and condi Mesmer, condi Engineer, rampage power Warrior are some that come to mind. Generally speaking though elite specs are a straight upgrade.

You cant use shield generators.

Nobody is saying some vanilla builds aren’t viable. The OP was asking to what degree is having HoT specs more advantageous in WvWvW. The answer to that is personal opinion. The people that say “it’s only a different way of playing” are delusional though. If by “different” you mean more often than not having more damage and more durability then yeah suuure.

Yes you are disadvantaged throughout the game by not having hot.

You are also going to be way behind when the next xpac comes out because the hot zones will be emptier while you’re trying to get current specializations unlocked. They will gate specializations so no doing stuff like skipping unlocking chronomamcer to get the new Mesmer elite.

Menaki.6329:

The problems with the meta builds are, that these builds put you in one direction of gameplay. In the zergs I’ve run lately, many commander/lieutenants still haven’t accepted yet, that the reaper specialisation is a melee not a range class anymore (old meta). So they put them all together in one group without any guardian or a profession who gives stability, and then they wonder why either the reapers rage-quit or they lose fights. Seen lately 7 of 10 reapers left the raid within a minute, after a new lieutenant have changed the groups and fights which were won earlier went suddenly into a massacre of your own group. I didn’t stay long too, after the next lieutenant put all reapers into a group again. So, on a personal necromancer pov, not having HoT isn’t a problem.

Yeah, same problem here – I’m a thief running frontline but am always grouped with either thieves or druids (that much does help) – so I never get stability.

You don’t have access to specializations or certain new stat combos. You also can’t get guild boosts.

This doesn’t mean you can’t play WvW without HoT. That’s not true at all, but the material advantages of HoT do exist, and brushing them off is silly.

Depending on what you want to do and your class, your disadvantage is around a 3-4 if zerging and slowly increases to a 7-8 the smaller the numbers get. Base guardian and ele in zergs would cross my mind as the least impacted thing, fyi.

There is one case where the disadvantage increases to a 20, and yes that’s breaking the scale, but that’s if you want to run a WvW based guild, where someone having HoT is mandatory.

Substance E.4852:

Lord Kuru.3685:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.
If you’re running a good build you should still be able to counter most things that people can throw at you. Understanding the elite specs would be a smart place to understand, but the only disadvantage you’re at is that you can’t use an elite spec (which is only a disadvantage if you wanted to use one).

Totally false. Elite specializations were advertised as “just another build option” but the reality is that having them makes you significantly stronger.

In sPvP? Yes, undoubtedly. Anet was shameless in their intentional power creep to get the pvp crowd to purchase the xpac.

In WvW things aren’t so black and white. Some builds are better but some still rely heavily on base skills and traits to the point that not having the elites won’t make a huge impact.

You’re still going to be using a staff on Ele for example.

Agreed for the most part but….

80% of builds or more use an elite spec for WvW even in zergs. Most guild group comps do not even include non HoT builds at the high end. The elite specs are designed to provide both high damage boosts and an overwhelming amount of utility in order to force players to buy HoT no questions asked….

Your staff eles should run tempest if possible, if not they should go arcana or fire… and that is the best case scenario for any class really.
Even mesmer s should not be run as a base class, the utility of grav well or double time warp for a group is stupidly strong comparable to any of the pre hot traitline benefits. And then you have traits ….

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elite specializations are just another build option. They’re not necessarily better than the existing builds, they just present different play style and build opportunities.

What a steaming pile of horse kitten

Dude, You should have posted the entire topic/body of this in capital cuz there’s no question the HoT builds are Light years ahead of the core class builds. Without even getting into the numerous combat advantages they have…the movement advantages are over the top. Dont even make me go thru a class by class list of HoT vs Core differences as it relates to combat.
The answer is a resounding 9.5 out of 10.
As a core thief from Beta & an original player of gw1 whose guild is from 4/29/05…That’s day 1 to the uninitiated…There was/is no way in h e l l I was going to reward anet for doing nothing but nerf me for over 3 years straight… (range nerfs that make my role in zerg vs zerg almost nonexistent at this point, trapper builds that are a comparative joke when measured according to HoT standards, and the list goes on & on).
LoL I took a 17k Gunflame hit the other day in wvw from a solid 1600+ range…
HoT Balance…It’s a pipe dream.
Server vs Server WvW Format was widely panned in conception…It didnt work in DAoC It didnt work in Warhammer Online It didnt work in SWtOR…there was no way it was going to work here.
Lack of a dual class system architecture…again widely & whole heartedly panned in conception.
Anet sold out long ago in terms of their willingness to think outside of the box.
GW1 was a masterpiece of concept, if not design/architecture that the entire industry took notice of…
GW2 is just the sad step child locked in the cellar & fed gruel thru a slot in the door.
My disappointment has been total…relegated to hanging out with the PvE heroes that are too uneducated to have a legitimate vote in gaming direction IMO
Gliding was introduced to appeal to the masses because the existing fashion wings made you look like a crippled chicken that I wanted to scoop up & cradle in my arms…spirit away to a well hidden shoe box…splint your broken wings & nurse back to health so that maybe one day I could shoot you with a pellet gun out the back door.
Heck, We dont even have fluxes.

If you want to keep playing this game, there is advantage not having HoT for the following reason.

After playing HOT, you might find WvW less rewarding to spend time on. However, HOT contents are extremely boring and grindy that would make you not want to play it either.

So you might quit the whole thing after HOT experience.

Evidence suggests if you know someone who complain about addiction to this game, you could give HOT as gifts. After a couple of months in HOT, they are most likely be happy not playing it.

I have leveled now 7 Elite over WvW. Everything as a solo Roamer. For none of activities for Roamer it needs the elite. I can NOTHING better after I have the elite. For Zerger is may be different, but that is not my part and uninteresting to me.

I think WvW (large scale combat situations) actually requires HoT the least among all gamemodes to be effective, at least for several classes.

Traditional staff elementalist can still run fire/air/arcane or fire/water/arcane and have very good personal survivability with triple cantrips and Evasive Arcana even when running glassy to allow them to output very high DPS in addition to providing water fields, etc. and being able to blast them with earth dodge rolls. Overloads are often not easy to get off in large scale fights as you have to be closer to melee range and you’re very susceptible to being interrupted anyway. I personally prefer running a high DPS build (fire/air – bolt to the heart/arcane) in a large scale group fight setup. Tempest can be used for more organized group configurations utilizing aurashare with proper party compositions but certainly isnt’t a requirement to be useful as an ele, or even optimal in many group situations.

Zerk power wells backline Necro is still a very strong build and one I desire more, more often than not, than reapers. In this pirate ship/ranged meta the traditional backline necro with standard death shroud is more desirable than melee reapers and one I wish more necros still used. Necros are better as a backline class than in the frontline as reapers do not offer that much in terms of party boons or other utility. I’d rather guardians and warriors in my frontline, with zerk necros wrecking things with wells from afar.

A standard stance warrior build without berserker seems more optimal in the frontline to me than anything using the berserker line. A sword/warhorn + hammer warrior with warbanner using tactics/discipline/defense is perfect and adding berserker would actually make the build worse. Berserker is only really useful in niche backline gunflame builds mostly used for pinsniping.

A traditional frontline guardian build is still a solid choice, although for guardians the Dragonhunter line, it could be argued, does have a place in frontline builds as well as specific builds utilizing longbow for coordinated CC bursts.

Obviously roaming is a completely different story and the elite specializations certainly shine much more when building for 1v1 or small scale scenarios, but for general WvW large scale fights I would consider some core builds stronger and more meta than their elite counterparts as I outlined.

it depnds on classes
guard war necro ele are fine without hot.
complete fp builds like thief mesmer ingi ranger require hot.
all for big scale pugging. e.g. ppl slowly understand that reapers are weaker than old nec´s in big scale pug linefighting. same for old ele and guard.

for roaming/fp play hot=king same as in pvp

Magira.6390:

I have leveled now 7 Elite over WvW. Everything as a solo Roamer. For none of activities for Roamer it needs the elite. I can NOTHING better after I have the elite. For Zerger is may be different, but that is not my part and uninteresting to me.

The difference is more noticable in small scale rather than in zerg.

Tiffany.8576:

I think WvW (large scale combat situations) actually requires HoT the least among all gamemodes to be effective, at least for several classes.

Traditional staff elementalist can still run fire/air/arcane or fire/water/arcane and have very good personal survivability with triple cantrips and Evasive Arcana even when running glassy to allow them to output very high DPS in addition to providing water fields, etc. and being able to blast them with earth dodge rolls. Overloads are often not easy to get off in large scale fights as you have to be closer to melee range and you’re very susceptible to being interrupted anyway. I personally prefer running a high DPS build (fire/air – bolt to the heart/arcane) in a large scale group fight setup. Tempest can be used for more organized group configurations utilizing aurashare with proper party compositions but certainly isnt’t a requirement to be useful as an ele, or even optimal in many group situations.

Zerk power wells backline Necro is still a very strong build and one I desire more, more often than not, than reapers. In this pirate ship/ranged meta the traditional backline necro with standard death shroud is more desirable than melee reapers and one I wish more necros still used. Necros are better as a backline class than in the frontline as reapers do not offer that much in terms of party boons or other utility. I’d rather guardians and warriors in my frontline, with zerk necros wrecking things with wells from afar.

A standard stance warrior build without berserker seems more optimal in the frontline to me than anything using the berserker line. A sword/warhorn + hammer warrior with warbanner using tactics/discipline/defense is perfect and adding berserker would actually make the build worse. Berserker is only really useful in niche backline gunflame builds mostly used for pinsniping.

A traditional frontline guardian build is still a solid choice, although for guardians the Dragonhunter line, it could be argued, does have a place in frontline builds as well as specific builds utilizing longbow for coordinated CC bursts.

Obviously roaming is a completely different story and the elite specializations certainly shine much more when building for 1v1 or small scale scenarios, but for general WvW large scale fights I would consider some core builds stronger and more meta than their elite counterparts as I outlined.

I agree with guards and necros, but for ele, still I see the elite as miles away ahead of old spec, in both zerg and roaming. The new heal is massive in comparison to old heals, that kitten thing heals allies almost as much as old heals heal the ele. Often I had to slot ether renewal for that condi cleanse, tbh I hate that heal, super obvious animation with long looooong channel. Random cc would kitten me up, in a fight with a conscious mesmer, I couldn’t use ether renewal at all.

Now, wash the pain away heals tons and I barely ever get interrupted. I don’t need the condi cleanse from ether renewal anymore because I have water overload. The stab on overloads helps a ton, sure won’t do miracle in middle of zerg bomb fest but ele shouldn’t be there anyway.

Dps overloads are amazing. I don’t use them in melee, I use them to kill that pesky thief that decided to kill our backline, I use the fire “spin to win” overload on low HP players or downed, fire fields everywhere, vanilla ele can’t compare.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Magira.6390:

I have leveled now 7 Elite over WvW. Everything as a solo Roamer. For none of activities for Roamer it needs the elite. I can NOTHING better after I have the elite. For Zerger is may be different, but that is not my part and uninteresting to me.

The difference is more noticable in small scale rather than in zerg.

Where exactly? I am now during the 8. Elite and can relate exactly how long it took each with and without elite for the taking a Camp, Tower, Shrine etc. Nothing has changed significantly. Situations against other players during the day (When I roam, not at night when all are on the road) are so rare that it does not matter.

Magira.6390:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Magira.6390:

I have leveled now 7 Elite over WvW. Everything as a solo Roamer. For none of activities for Roamer it needs the elite. I can NOTHING better after I have the elite. For Zerger is may be different, but that is not my part and uninteresting to me.

The difference is more noticable in small scale rather than in zerg.

Where exactly? I am now during the 8. Elite and can relate exactly how long it took each with and without elite for the taking a Camp, Tower, Shrine etc. Nothing has changed significantly. Situations against other players during the day (When I roam, not at night when all are on the road) are so rare that it does not matter.

So you’re judging where the elite specs are based on your solo robot smashing on a freaking PvP map. Seriously? Calgon take me away.

Tiffany.8576:

I think WvW (large scale combat situations) actually requires HoT the least among all gamemodes to be effective, at least for several classes.

Traditional staff elementalist can still run fire/air/arcane or fire/water/arcane and have very good personal survivability with triple cantrips and Evasive Arcana even when running glassy to allow them to output very high DPS in addition to providing water fields, etc. and being able to blast them with earth dodge rolls. Overloads are often not easy to get off in large scale fights as you have to be closer to melee range and you’re very susceptible to being interrupted anyway. I personally prefer running a high DPS build (fire/air – bolt to the heart/arcane) in a large scale group fight setup. Tempest can be used for more organized group configurations utilizing aurashare with proper party compositions but certainly isnt’t a requirement to be useful as an ele, or even optimal in many group situations.

Zerk power wells backline Necro is still a very strong build and one I desire more, more often than not, than reapers. In this pirate ship/ranged meta the traditional backline necro with standard death shroud is more desirable than melee reapers and one I wish more necros still used. Necros are better as a backline class than in the frontline as reapers do not offer that much in terms of party boons or other utility. I’d rather guardians and warriors in my frontline, with zerk necros wrecking things with wells from afar.

A standard stance warrior build without berserker seems more optimal in the frontline to me than anything using the berserker line. A sword/warhorn + hammer warrior with warbanner using tactics/discipline/defense is perfect and adding berserker would actually make the build worse. Berserker is only really useful in niche backline gunflame builds mostly used for pinsniping.

A traditional frontline guardian build is still a solid choice, although for guardians the Dragonhunter line, it could be argued, does have a place in frontline builds as well as specific builds utilizing longbow for coordinated CC bursts.

Obviously roaming is a completely different story and the elite specializations certainly shine much more when building for 1v1 or small scale scenarios, but for general WvW large scale fights I would consider some core builds stronger and more meta than their elite counterparts as I outlined.

Bingo! Someone here actually understands wvw. This is your best answer so far op. Unless you roam, the classes listed above are 100% viable without HOT. Now having more choices is always better but honestly the players saying you can’t play the game mode properly without it have no idea what they’re talking about.

Base PU mes is still a pain in the backside to fight if you roam, but in general having HOT does matter more for that playstyle.

gennyt.3428:

Magira.6390:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Magira.6390:

I have leveled now 7 Elite over WvW. Everything as a solo Roamer. For none of activities for Roamer it needs the elite. I can NOTHING better after I have the elite. For Zerger is may be different, but that is not my part and uninteresting to me.

The difference is more noticable in small scale rather than in zerg.

Where exactly? I am now during the 8. Elite and can relate exactly how long it took each with and without elite for the taking a Camp, Tower, Shrine etc. Nothing has changed significantly. Situations against other players during the day (When I roam, not at night when all are on the road) are so rare that it does not matter.

So you’re judging where the elite specs are based on your solo robot smashing on a freaking PvP map. Seriously? Calgon take me away.

I assume that a playstil that brings the fastest Progress, is clearly one that is provided by ArenaNet for. Not you? ^^

Magira.6390:

gennyt.3428:

Magira.6390:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Magira.6390:

I have leveled now 7 Elite over WvW. Everything as a solo Roamer. For none of activities for Roamer it needs the elite. I can NOTHING better after I have the elite. For Zerger is may be different, but that is not my part and uninteresting to me.

The difference is more noticable in small scale rather than in zerg.

Where exactly? I am now during the 8. Elite and can relate exactly how long it took each with and without elite for the taking a Camp, Tower, Shrine etc. Nothing has changed significantly. Situations against other players during the day (When I roam, not at night when all are on the road) are so rare that it does not matter.

So you’re judging where the elite specs are based on your solo robot smashing on a freaking PvP map. Seriously? Calgon take me away.

I assume that a playstil that brings the fastest Progress, is clearly one that is provided by ArenaNet for. Not you? ^^

I’m not really understanding what you just typed there. Either way, the OP was asking about WvWvW, you know, the place where PvP happens and you’re reply was “I can PvD (PvE) just fine and I don’t fight other players so HoT makes no difference.” Is that really a healthy gauge for how the HoT specs perform in WvWvW? No.