Guild Wars 2

…. yea now it makes sence that the revenant is so restricting… all other classes and their traitlines will be too… a-net.. why the hell you dont make it right away a darn MOBA game cause thats where you are going anyways if you keep going on like this. (not a shot at moba games, they are made to be that way and thats good like it is)

morrolan.9608:

Andred.1087:

Could you guys please for once stop pretending you know more about this than the kittening devs do… They’re doing an AMA tomorrow to clarify questions, for kitten’s sake!

Actually it is crystal clear that we will lose diversity in the way the OP describes, the medi guardian build will be impossible, yes builds will be adapted but there will be inherently less build diversity and less choice.

Not necessarily true until we see the end. And giving us full 9 traits with 3 grandmasters over 7 might open things up more, not shrink them.

We don’t KNOW what it looks like yet. Not saying not to raise concerns because that’s smart. But stating things as crystal clear is not true.

morrolan.9608:

Andred.1087:

Could you guys please for once stop pretending you know more about this than the kittening devs do… They’re doing an AMA tomorrow to clarify questions, for kitten’s sake!

Actually it is crystal clear that we will lose diversity in the way the OP describes, the medi guardian build will be impossible, yes builds will be adapted but there will be inherently less build diversity and less choice.

Im a bit curious how it will affect medi guard tho. Lets say they wont move/delete any guardian traits which leads to 2 possibilities;

0/6/6/0/6 – losing minor to gain vigor on crit but gaining +15 crit chance on 1h weps.

or

0/0/6/6/6 – Enjoy 300 extra vit at the cost of losing blind on justice

Also 6 in virtues allow medi guardian to pick up shielded mind for extra stunbreak/purity of body to make up a bit for the lack of vigor.

Also virtues will have lower cd’s where justice will be sitting on 20cd, resolve on 40 and courage on 60. I fail to see how exacly it break this build in this case.

morrolan.9608:

Andred.1087:

Could you guys please for once stop pretending you know more about this than the kittening devs do… They’re doing an AMA tomorrow to clarify questions, for kitten’s sake!

Actually it is crystal clear that we will lose diversity in the way the OP describes, the medi guardian build will be impossible, yes builds will be adapted but there will be inherently less build diversity and less choice.

At the same time, it makes new builds possible.

As for medi guard, 20 traits per profession are getting merged with others or are becoming part of the original skills. It’s very possible that something like Justice is Blind will become part of Virtue of Justice, thus freeing you from having to spend that 1 point in Radiance.

They wil lscrew up my medi guard, 0/1/6/6/1. I have 6000 more hp because I am vitality heavy and now they will remove that plus remove virtues so what the hell guardian will be? I am not going to play wvw with 12k hp. (now 25k)

and 300 toughness is not meaningless lost… :S

RabbitUp.8294:

mrstealth.6701:

There are some traitlines with traits I consider vital in the adept and master tiers. Traitlines that I have no use or desire to go further into. Being able to spend those points going partially into another traitline is a huge part of the flexibility we have now.

You realize this is contradictory? If you consider some traits vital, staples or whatever, they only limit build diversity, not add to it. It means you are, to a degree, forced to choose them.

The new system will force you to make more meaningful choices, instead of augmenting your strengths and covering your weaknesses in the same build. Specialization is what leads to build diversity, not cookie-cutter builds.

I don’t see that being contradictory at all. If an adept trait offers something important to the build/playstyle, being forced into also having to take master and grandmaster traits from the same line does nothing to increase diversity. It’s only preventing those points from being spent on traits that are actually desired/useful.

Having to pick and choose traits to improve your strengths and cover weaknesses is the entire point of the system. It’s what we do every time we make a build. It’s about deciding what is vital to your current chosen playstyle. That single trait is vital because of a choice to go with that build/playstyle. Not because you’re being forced to take it, as if there are no other options.

mrstealth.6701:

RabbitUp.8294:

mrstealth.6701:

There are some traitlines with traits I consider vital in the adept and master tiers. Traitlines that I have no use or desire to go further into. Being able to spend those points going partially into another traitline is a huge part of the flexibility we have now.

You realize this is contradictory? If you consider some traits vital, staples or whatever, they only limit build diversity, not add to it. It means you are, to a degree, forced to choose them.

The new system will force you to make more meaningful choices, instead of augmenting your strengths and covering your weaknesses in the same build. Specialization is what leads to build diversity, not cookie-cutter builds.

I don’t see that being contradictory at all. If an adept trait offers something important to the build/playstyle, being forced into also having to take master and grandmaster traits from the same line does nothing to increase diversity. It’s only preventing those points from being spent on traits that are actually desired/useful.

Having to pick and choose traits to improve your strengths and cover weaknesses is the entire point of the system. It’s what we do every time we make a build. It’s about deciding what is vital to your current chosen playstyle. That single trait is vital because of a choice to go with that build/playstyle. Not because you’re being forced to take it, as if there are no other options.

The point of the system is to specialize, not pick between of handful of minmax cookie-cutter builds.

When you can make a tanky Ele that deals sufficient damage, the incentive to go glass cannon or support is reduced. That’s why in the end, the number of viable builds are reduced.

Honestly,
How many viable builds go into all 5 lines?

Ranger Pewpew gets condi removal, one of the weaknesses to that build, erased.
Thieves now get access to SA from going full berserker builds
Mesmer’s have the option to get PU as well kittentering.

Fresh Air ele’s get access to huge healing bonuses from the water line.

We are going to see useless traits removed or merged.

Honestly, for viable meta builds this is a buff.
For people that used random trait line combinations
This is basically going to force you to make a choice of viable or unviable builds.

My opinion.
I welcome the change, I am interested in seeing what happens when already viable builds cover there own weaknessess through traits

Ragnarox.9601:

They wil lscrew up my medi guard, 0/1/6/6/1. I have 6000 more hp because I am vitality heavy and now they will remove that plus remove virtues so what the hell guardian will be? I am not going to play wvw with 12k hp. (now 25k)

and 300 toughness is not meaningless lost… :S

Change your armor?

RabbitUp.8294:

mrstealth.6701:

RabbitUp.8294:

mrstealth.6701:

There are some traitlines with traits I consider vital in the adept and master tiers. Traitlines that I have no use or desire to go further into. Being able to spend those points going partially into another traitline is a huge part of the flexibility we have now.

You realize this is contradictory? If you consider some traits vital, staples or whatever, they only limit build diversity, not add to it. It means you are, to a degree, forced to choose them.

The new system will force you to make more meaningful choices, instead of augmenting your strengths and covering your weaknesses in the same build. Specialization is what leads to build diversity, not cookie-cutter builds.

I don’t see that being contradictory at all. If an adept trait offers something important to the build/playstyle, being forced into also having to take master and grandmaster traits from the same line does nothing to increase diversity. It’s only preventing those points from being spent on traits that are actually desired/useful.

Having to pick and choose traits to improve your strengths and cover weaknesses is the entire point of the system. It’s what we do every time we make a build. It’s about deciding what is vital to your current chosen playstyle. That single trait is vital because of a choice to go with that build/playstyle. Not because you’re being forced to take it, as if there are no other options.

The point of the system is to specialize, not pick between of handful of minmax cookie-cutter builds.

When you can make a tanky Ele that deals sufficient damage, the incentive to go glass cannon or support is reduced. That’s why in the end, the number of viable builds are reduced.

Depends. If I can make a fresh air ele that has decent survivability while still doing a metric ton of damage then I will chose that build.
If you don’t deal enough damage to kill someone o something then you’re just there to waste time.

Solori.6025:

Depends. If I can make a fresh air ele that has decent survivability while still doing a metric ton of damage then I will chose that build.

Exactly? If you can make said Fresh Air Ele, why would you pick a different build? You wouldn’t. The concept of tankmages is not a new thing for MMOs.

If the new system makes you lose some of that survivability for equal or more damage, it also leaves room for a support teammate that gives you some of what you lost.

Solori.6025:

If you don’t deal enough damage to kill someone o something then you’re just there to waste time.

When the only (meaningful) thing one can contribute to a fight is dps, then the game design is flawed.

RabbitUp.8294:

If the new system makes you lose some of that survivability for equal or more damage, it also leaves room for a support teammate that gives you some of what you lost.

Being forced into that is precisely the lack of diversity that is the issue. It’s not giving more viable options, it’s pigeon-holing you into that glass build and pigeon-holing someone else into making up for what you now lack.

We’re not forced into picking a set balance of DPS/survivability right now. It’s a choice to play what you want to, and what you feel comfortable with. I’m comfortable playing my ele quite glassy. I’m not forced into making any of the trait choices for that build. It might be a little easier if I was more tanky, and I guess that might be an “incentive” for that. But I’ve chosen to not go that route, because I don’t want to.

When the only (meaningful) thing one can contribute to a fight is dps, then the game design is flawed.

I do agree that this is a major problem, especially with dungeon design. But that’s a separate issue with the content design.

It’s funny because the traits that the Meditation guard would lose here aren’t even build defining – they’re simply strong traits that were taken because they’re strong.

In exchange, the build will get four more traits (2 minor, 2 major) with great flexibility depending on their line of choice – possibly even the Elite Specialization line. The Meditation guard build will adapt. If anything, they’ll be buffed greatly by the change, and that’s discounting the very likely possibility that a couple of the meditation traits would be merged, opening up yet another trait slot for them to customize their build further.

New builds will open up, and a few months from the Heart of Thorns launch, people will wonder why they ever opposed the Specialization system so strongly.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

New builds will open up, and a few months from the Heart of Thorns launch, people will wonder why they ever opposed the Specialization system so strongly.

What I’m going to miss most is being able to use a 2nd adept trait when none of the majors in a line are of any use to my build. And that is only made worse by the use of traitlines being all-or-nothing.

Losing the ability to spec into more than 3 lines is at least offset by gaining more traits overall. But the loss of choice to take an addition lower tier trait is a loss. The only way that will be retained, is if/when the desired extra trait is one that gets merged or turned into an integrated skill mechanic.

RabbitUp.8294

The point of the system is to specialize, not pick between of handful of minmax cookie-cutter builds.

I think you have that backwards. Minmaxing is specializing, to an extreme degree. It’s the complete opposite of diversity.

mrstealth.6701:

RabbitUp.8294:

If the new system makes you lose some of that survivability for equal or more damage, it also leaves room for a support teammate that gives you some of what you lost.

Being forced into that is precisely the lack of diversity that is the issue. It’s not giving more viable options, it’s pigeon-holing you into that glass build and pigeon-holing someone else into making up for what you now lack.

We’re not forced into picking a set balance of DPS/survivability right now. It’s a choice to play what you want to, and what you feel comfortable with. I’m comfortable playing my ele quite glassy. I’m not forced into making any of the trait choices for that build. It might be a little easier if I was more tanky, and I guess that might be an “incentive” for that. But I’ve chosen to not go that route, because I don’t want to.

Why do you assume you will be forced into going glass cannon? If you can be both tanky and do damage under the current system, then you only have 1 viable build choice. If you have to choose between dps or survivability/support, that’s at least 2 different builds. Of course, that’s only an example and goes into holy trinity territory, which Anet initially wanted to avoid.

And while you can indeed choose to play an off-meta build due to personal preference, playstyle or flavour, something still possible under the new system, for the min-maxing competitive crowd, more choice doesn’t lead to more versatility, but it’s quite often the exact opposite.

RabbitUp.8294:

Why do you assume you will be forced into going glass cannon?

It was a somewhat extreme example. A good part of the diversity we have now is from being able to partially invest into a traitline. For instance, when you want just a little more survivability in a DPS focused build.

If you can be both tanky and do damage under the current system, then you only have 1 viable build choice.

That is just outright false. That is one thing you can do, but you’re not going to excel at either as much as someone focused into just one of those. You can be full DPS, tank, support, or anywhere in between.

If you have to choose between dps or survivability/support, that’s at least 2 different builds. Of course, that’s only an example and goes into holy trinity territory, which Anet initially wanted to avoid.

We have these options now, and more. You can blend them to many different degrees. This new specialization system will limit that more, into something similar to what you describe. What we have now is much more.

It’s not just a black/white situation we have now, there is a lot of grey too. The proposed changes are more black/white than what we have now.

RabbitUp.8294:

Exactly? If you can make said Fresh Air Ele, why would you pick a different build? You wouldn’t. The concept of tankmages is not a new thing for MMOs.

True, though there isn’t really a tank in this game.
So its really just a burst mage with extra survivability.
But you next point.

RabbitUp.8294:

When the only (meaningful) thing one can contribute to a fight is dps, then the game design is flawed.

This has been the design of this game for a long long time.
There are no roles, you dont designate a tank, or a healer.

With this in mind.
How many VIABLE builds are there really.

Not 100,000+
probably not even 100+

So what does this change really do, besides make already stonger builds stronger?

It breaks the illusion of choice.
This is what I have seen people argue, it’s that whatever random trait combination they made will no longer be able to be made.

But here is a challenge ( mostly because I want to see if we can compile a list of builds that will not be modified but instead straight up deleted with the new content patch.)

What VIABLE builds will we actually be losing because of this change?

mrstealth.6701:

RabbitUp.8294:

Why do you assume you will be forced into going glass cannon?

It was a somewhat extreme example. A good part of the diversity we have now is from being able to partially invest into a traitline. For instance, when you want just a little more survivability in a DPS focused build.

If you can be both tanky and do damage under the current system, then you only have 1 viable build choice.

That is just outright false. That is one thing you can do, but you’re not going to excel at either as much as someone focused into just one of those. You can be full DPS, tank, support, or anywhere in between.

If you have to choose between dps or survivability/support, that’s at least 2 different builds. Of course, that’s only an example and goes into holy trinity territory, which Anet initially wanted to avoid.

We have these options now, and more. You can blend them to many different degrees. This new specialization system will limit that more, into something similar to what you describe. What we have now is much more.

It’s not just a black/white situation we have now, there is a lot of grey too. The proposed changes are more black/white than what we have now.

The problems occur when you are able to balance your dps and survivability into amounts you are satisfied with, in a way that gives you little to no reason to focus more unevenly on either stat.

Those grey areas are currently more enticing than the black and white ones, instead of all 3 being equally appealing, and you can see that being reflected in the current meta builds. And it’s not like the new system limits you to 2 incompatible DPS and support modes, like a lot of other mmos do (some even going as far as naming them that and making you flip the switch between the two). There’re still grey areas to explore. The builds that split their points into 4+ trait lines are mostly losing a couple of lower tier traits (mediguard only loses non build-defining adept minor traits, for example), while gaining grandmaster tier ones.

And there’s still the possibility some of those traits might become part of the base skills.

Solori.6025:

But here is a challenge ( mostly because I want to see if we can compile a list of builds that will not be modified but instead straight up deleted with the new content patch.)

What VIABLE builds will we actually be losing because of this change?

Viable is a fairly loose term. A lot of builds would be considered viable. Basically anything that works could be called viable. Sometimes you (not you specifically) just have to look outside the meta box. That’s been a huge problem in MMOs for a long time.

But even just looking at the current meta builds, quite a few of them (and their variants) are using more than 3 traitlines or sacrifice a master trait for a second adept.

Solori.6025:

RabbitUp.8294:

Exactly? If you can make said Fresh Air Ele, why would you pick a different build? You wouldn’t. The concept of tankmages is not a new thing for MMOs.

True, though there isn’t really a tank in this game.
So its really just a burst mage with extra survivability.
But you next point.

RabbitUp.8294:

When the only (meaningful) thing one can contribute to a fight is dps, then the game design is flawed.

This has been the design of this game for a long long time.
There are no roles, you dont designate a tank, or a healer.

With this in mind.
How many VIABLE builds are there really.

Not 100,000+
probably not even 100+

So what does this change really do, besides make already stonger builds stronger?

It breaks the illusion of choice.
This is what I have seen people argue, it’s that whatever random trait combination they made will no longer be able to be made.

But here is a challenge ( mostly because I want to see if we can compile a list of builds that will not be modified but instead straight up deleted with the new content patch.)

What VIABLE builds will we actually be losing because of this change?

Pretty much any reasonable Staff Ele setup.

mrstealth.6701:

Solori.6025:

But here is a challenge ( mostly because I want to see if we can compile a list of builds that will not be modified but instead straight up deleted with the new content patch.)

What VIABLE builds will we actually be losing because of this change?

Viable is a fairly loose term. A lot of builds would be considered viable. Basically anything that works could be called viable. Sometimes you (not you specifically) just have to look outside the meta box. That’s been a huge problem in MMOs for a long time.

But even just looking at the current meta builds, quite a few of them (and their variants) are using more than 3 traitlines or sacrifice a master trait for a second adept.

hmmm..Should I restate the question you think?

How many builds that contribute significantly( mainly contribute in some meaningful manner) to group content are going to be modified or added, and how many will we lose because of this change?

better?

Saint.5647:

Solori.6025:

RabbitUp.8294:

Exactly? If you can make said Fresh Air Ele, why would you pick a different build? You wouldn’t. The concept of tankmages is not a new thing for MMOs.

True, though there isn’t really a tank in this game.
So its really just a burst mage with extra survivability.
But you next point.

RabbitUp.8294:

When the only (meaningful) thing one can contribute to a fight is dps, then the game design is flawed.

This has been the design of this game for a long long time.
There are no roles, you dont designate a tank, or a healer.

With this in mind.
How many VIABLE builds are there really.

Not 100,000+
probably not even 100+

So what does this change really do, besides make already stonger builds stronger?

It breaks the illusion of choice.
This is what I have seen people argue, it’s that whatever random trait combination they made will no longer be able to be made.

But here is a challenge ( mostly because I want to see if we can compile a list of builds that will not be modified but instead straight up deleted with the new content patch.)

What VIABLE builds will we actually be losing because of this change?

Pretty much any reasonable Staff Ele setup.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

If we can compile a list of builds that contribute in some significant way to group content, and we compile a list of them.

Then we can also compile an accurate list of the ones we lose because of this change.
And when you actually have evidence.
People tend to take you seriously.

Please note.
I am asking for builds that will be totally erased with no viable alternative or modification with the new system.

RabbitUp.8294:

The problems occur when you are able to balance your dps and survivability into amounts you are satisfied with, in a way that gives you little to no reason to focus more unevenly on either stat.

Those grey areas are currently more enticing than the black and white ones, instead of all 3 being equally appealing, and you can see that being reflected in the current meta builds.

I wouldn’t label that as a problem. It’s just having options. You have to decide what is right for you.

There is always a reason to focus on more damage. You will kill faster. The downside being that you will have to be more alert, aware, and skillful to survive.

There is always a reason to focus on more survivability. You will generally have an easier time staying alive with less effort. The downside being that you will kill slower.

Finding your own place to fit into that is a key part of any game that allows you to design your characters skillset/abilities/build. It’s the reason systems like that exist.

For me, it’s one of the most important aspects of an MMO. I’m always experimenting and tweaking my builds. I don’t see the metas as anything more than a suggestion for potential combinations I might have missed.

Solori.6025:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

If we can compile a list of builds that contribute in some significant way to group content, and we compile a list of them.

Then we can also compile an accurate list of the ones we lose because of this change.
And when you actually have evidence.
People tend to take you seriously.

Please note.
I am asking for builds that will be totally erased with no viable alternative or modification with the new system.

Are you trying to be a kitten or is that just how you go about talking to people normally? When I have evidence? How about 6/4/2/2/0? Or 6/4/2/0/2 or 6/4/0/2/2? There are also some niche traits that come in handy for certain things too. Why limit that?

I don’t know what the new system will hold so I don’t know if they will be completely erased as possibilities. That’s why I’m raising my concerns and clearly I’m not alone.

Anet doesn’t really have much credit with me after nearly every change they’ve made so far has been made without 2 way communication with the players. I hope they make this right but forgive me if I don’t place my faith in them.

Saint.5647:

Solori.6025:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

If we can compile a list of builds that contribute in some significant way to group content, and we compile a list of them.

Then we can also compile an accurate list of the ones we lose because of this change.
And when you actually have evidence.
People tend to take you seriously.

Please note.
I am asking for builds that will be totally erased with no viable alternative or modification with the new system.

Are you trying to be a kitten or is that just how you go about talking to people normally? When I have evidence? How about 6/4/2/2/0? Or 6/4/2/0/2 or 6/4/0/2/2? There are also some niche traits that come in handy for certain things too. Why limit that?

I don’t know what the new system will hold so I don’t know if they will be completely erased as possibilities. That’s why I’m raising my concerns and clearly I’m not alone.

Anet doesn’t really have much credit with me after nearly every change they’ve made so far has been made without 2 way communication with the players. I hope they make this right but forgive me if I don’t place my faith in them.

Sorry you seem to have taken offense to my use of “you” I wasn’t speaking to you directly more as a term for the community.

I linked you a build editor more as something for everyone to use.
Show the builds you lose, when we can show the builds we lose have no viable alternative, and modifing them using different traits wont work.
Then maybe they will take the complaint of limiting choice seriously
Please note I said Maybe.

listing me random numbers and not the class doesnt help.
Another reason why I linked the build editor

And lastly
My warrior uses a 6/0/4/2/2 with leg specialist for the immobilize.
That build will be non existant with the change, and will instead be focused on something completely different, while losing the immobilization uptime that made that build work.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAR3ejMdUGaVIedwJigfgC5t3CmDgBo6VlGpOCA-TFCFwAl2fAwTA4qSQkK/EcRAQp+TaNMZ0NQKABFaB-w

Your turn.

Solori.6025:

hmmm..Should I restate the question you think?

How many builds that contribute significantly( mainly contribute in some meaningful manner) to group content are going to be modified or added, and how many will we lose because of this change?

better?

Sorry, I was just being a bit nitpicky with semantics for a more general point.

Currently common/meta builds would be a decent baseline. Hard to get a full picture, because we don’t know how many will have comparable replacements under the new system’s traits.

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

Nate.3927:

mrstealth.6701:

I don’t think it’s a total disaster or gamebreaking, but it’s certainly stifling variation and flexibility. It’s a step in the wrong direction, in my opinion. We’re supposed to be getting more options in builds, not limiting them.

There are some traitlines with traits I consider vital in the adept and master tiers. Traitlines that I have no use or desire to go further into. Being able to spend those points going partially into another traitline is a huge part of the flexibility we have now. They won’t even be useful by giving additional stats under this new system.

There are also several characters where I forgo a master trait for a second minor, or even a grandmaster for a second master. From the screenshots in today’s posts, that looks to no longer be possible.

I feel like some of you just completely fail at reading comprehension. The existing traits will be changed and moved around. So that trait that you consider vital on the adept/master tier of a traitline you don’t actually want? May actually get moved into a traitline you want to max out.

Some of them will even disappear and their functionality become part of the skill’s normal functionality. Using the example from the article, necromancer wells. At the moment I need to take Focused Rituals for ground targeting, because otherwise I have to jump into the middle of the enemy hammer train to drop my wells and with a large enough enemy zerg, that’s a really bad thing to do. If that trait gets removed since it’s now become a normal part of the well line of skills, I can now use that slot for something else that I might find more useful.

I think you make kittenumptions off of announcements. This is not the first time anet has announced trait redesign to change the “more useless ones” and we still have a bunch of useless traits. This is not the first time they’ve gotten rid of “useless traits” to still have useless traits.

I read the post. I saw they are moving traits around. I’m not confident that they are going to make every line have a useful trait in every adept, master, and grandmaster spot. Because 2.5 years of changes have shown that they haven’t accomplished that.

Nate.3927:

I feel like some of you just completely fail at reading comprehension. The existing traits will be changed and moved around. So that trait that you consider vital on the adept/master tier of a traitline you don’t actually want? May actually get moved into a traitline you want to max out.

I read the articles. The fact that a trait might (key word there) get moved into another line that happens to fit into new build is not reason to dismiss concerns or insult people. That trait is just as likely stay right where it is, and be inaccessible without wasting a full investment into that traitline.

It’s best to voice concerns now, and not just assume it will work out based on a pile of maybes.

phys.7689:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

But how many variables are viable?

This is my main concern and what I hopefully portrayed in my earlier question.

You can for example have a 6/4/1/3 that is outperformed by a 6/4/0/4
Under the new system you lose the 6/4/1/3 but have a better build because you get to choose 6/6/0/6
and have access to two new grandmasters.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?
( not an actual number but you get my point right?)

We lose a lot of builds for a focused few.

If you feel you lose builds that perform on the same level or better than the current builds listed as meta, then bring them forth ( I use you as a general you, not directed towards any one person)
If we have a list (hopefully a large one) of builds that are viable ( When I use viable i mean a build that contributes significantly in a group setting) and have no replacement or modification with the new system then maybe we wont have to wait a year like we have for them to fix it. ( new player experience which should have been fixed 3 months after it was released because it is horrible, in my opinion of course.)

As a community assume the changes are going to happen. Instead of yelling at the screen about how you lose choices show the choices that you lose are significant, and have no alternative.
If you come up with a thread full of viable builds that have no replacement or alternative with the new system do you really think arenanet as a company that needs players to continue to function will ignore you?

I do apologize if it feels like I am attacking people in the pro choice camp.
What I would rather see, is less pointless crying about lack of choice and more direct concern at the loss of viable options that is both focused and specific so that we don’t lose too many good options.

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

But how many variables are viable?

This is my main concern and what I hopefully portrayed in my earlier question.

You can for example have a 6/4/1/3 that is outperformed by a 6/4/0/4
Under the new system you lose the 6/4/1/3 but have a better build because you get to choose 6/6/0/6
and have access to two new grandmasters.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?
( not an actual number but you get my point right?)

We lose a lot of builds for a focused few.

If you feel you lose builds that perform on the same level or better than the current builds listed as meta, then bring them forth ( I use you as a general you, not directed towards any one person)
If we have a list (hopefully a large one) of builds that are viable ( When I use viable i mean a build that contributes significantly in a group setting) and have no replacement or modification with the new system then maybe we wont have to wait a year like we have for them to fix it. ( new player experience which should have been fixed 3 months after it was released because it is horrible, in my opinion of course.)

As a community assume the changes are going to happen. Instead of yelling at the screen about how you lose choices show the choices that you lose are significant, and have no alternative.
If you come up with a thread full of viable builds that have no replacement or alternative with the new system do you really think arenanet as a company that needs players to continue to function will ignore you?

“and have access to two new grandmasters.”

This assumes you want the two new grandmasters. Because as it stands now (as a guardian) I’d rather have one grandmaster and two majors. Can’t do that anymore.

Sauncho.8076:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

But how many variables are viable?

This is my main concern and what I hopefully portrayed in my earlier question.

You can for example have a 6/4/1/3 that is outperformed by a 6/4/0/4
Under the new system you lose the 6/4/1/3 but have a better build because you get to choose 6/6/0/6
and have access to two new grandmasters.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?
( not an actual number but you get my point right?)

We lose a lot of builds for a focused few.

If you feel you lose builds that perform on the same level or better than the current builds listed as meta, then bring them forth ( I use you as a general you, not directed towards any one person)
If we have a list (hopefully a large one) of builds that are viable ( When I use viable i mean a build that contributes significantly in a group setting) and have no replacement or modification with the new system then maybe we wont have to wait a year like we have for them to fix it. ( new player experience which should have been fixed 3 months after it was released because it is horrible, in my opinion of course.)

As a community assume the changes are going to happen. Instead of yelling at the screen about how you lose choices show the choices that you lose are significant, and have no alternative.
If you come up with a thread full of viable builds that have no replacement or alternative with the new system do you really think arenanet as a company that needs players to continue to function will ignore you?

“and have access to two new grandmasters.”

This assumes you want the two new grandmasters. Because as it stands now (as a guardian) I’d rather have one grandmaster and two majors. Can’t do that anymore.

“Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?"

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

Can you show your build? So we can show what options we are losing with no viable alternative?

Solori.6025:

Sauncho.8076:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Solori.6025:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

They explicitly said they’re going to do their best to support currently existing builds under the new system.

That being said, “SO”? We’ll likely lose some builds, we’ll likely gain some builds.

Even more likely there will be old builds that still exist that are overwhelmed by new builds and made obsolete

We can’t treat any build like it’s sancrosanct or special, as long as the general style continues to exist and be viable

they will lose a lot of builds, thats a given.

And there will be a lot less possibility.
They may increase the amount of super top end builds from by a factor of two, but they will kill a tone of middle ground builds by a much larger margin. They will also like force synergies
truth is, the options will be far less.

first of all there are only 10 possible specialization choices in the core
then there are only 27 possibilities to choose for any one line.

many of these choices will likely have no synergy with some builds.

like you wont take anything dagger related within a trait line if you dont use dagger.

so out of those 27 possibilities, a great many will be false choices.

so yeah, a lot less builds by far.

now, you my think that is ok, as long as you get a few more top end choices. But lets not kid ourselves, a lot of viable builds will die. there is noway around it.

True, but how many of those will be replaced.

How many middle ground builds are there that perform at a subpar level when compared to the high end builds

It’s why I asked the question earlier if you missed it.

Maybe all of this will be answered tomorrow?

reducing possibilities will never increase variability. Thats not actually possible.
making better traits MAY increase high end variability, but making better traits has nothing to do with how many possibilities exist.

If any new better builds exist, it will be because they made some traits better, thats it.

But how many variables are viable?

This is my main concern and what I hopefully portrayed in my earlier question.

You can for example have a 6/4/1/3 that is outperformed by a 6/4/0/4
Under the new system you lose the 6/4/1/3 but have a better build because you get to choose 6/6/0/6
and have access to two new grandmasters.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?
( not an actual number but you get my point right?)

We lose a lot of builds for a focused few.

If you feel you lose builds that perform on the same level or better than the current builds listed as meta, then bring them forth ( I use you as a general you, not directed towards any one person)
If we have a list (hopefully a large one) of builds that are viable ( When I use viable i mean a build that contributes significantly in a group setting) and have no replacement or modification with the new system then maybe we wont have to wait a year like we have for them to fix it. ( new player experience which should have been fixed 3 months after it was released because it is horrible, in my opinion of course.)

As a community assume the changes are going to happen. Instead of yelling at the screen about how you lose choices show the choices that you lose are significant, and have no alternative.
If you come up with a thread full of viable builds that have no replacement or alternative with the new system do you really think arenanet as a company that needs players to continue to function will ignore you?

“and have access to two new grandmasters.”

This assumes you want the two new grandmasters. Because as it stands now (as a guardian) I’d rather have one grandmaster and two majors. Can’t do that anymore.

Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

If you feel that your build choice that’s getting removed wont be replaced by another viable option then show it. Explain why ( like I have) and lets stat compiling a list.

“Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?”

Freedom of choice…freedom to choose wrong/garbage builds…freedom to experiment. The freedom to choose is more important to me than “quality.” It’s kind of the American Way. I can choose to got to McDonalds, Jack in the Box, In N Out, Whattaburger, Mid Range Restaurant, Expensive Restaurant, etc., as opposed to being forced to going to Restaurant A because communist country said it was the best for me.

“Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?"

And just what in this game is high end? The same dungeons everyone has been running for the last two or more years? Or the same fractals everyone has been running for a bit less than that? It certainly couldn’t be world bosses. Near every aspect of play in this game -as in going out and hunting monsters- is built around inclusiveness. So I don’t see what that’s about.

As for the trait changes themselves it seems to be the same brand of doublespeak that was thrown about before the trait system revamp of Lord of The Rings Online.

There, as it seems now here, it was bandied about that there was, ‘skill bloat’ ‘too many traits’ and that it confused players. So they simplified it. They gave us trait trees, stripped some out, and gated certain skills, once utilised regardless of traiting, behind individual trees whilst making it restrictive to hybridise as before. All in the interest of ‘focusing class roles’ and making it ‘simpler to implement and balance group oriented content’ None of which ever materialised. And yet those class changes stuck. The upshot? Beyond griping, or holding its current incarnation up for ridicule, nobody talks about lotro anymore. So few that lotro is all but abandoned by its former community.

If you’ve played through a few of these games- and their changes over the years you begin to gain a feel for what’s coming- or rather see familiar patterns reasserting themselves- things which factor in whenever someone asks you, “Why did you leave your last game?”

What I’ve read today is that trait lines will be changed, skills will be changed to make choosing them more compelling, but there again I only hear doublespeak with as hyper, positive, and as hard a sell as possible to make readers ignore/forget the past as well as whatever current feelings of dread they might be experiencing. It isn’t working.

Making it such that I’m no longer able to choose three adept skills, two adepts and a master, or one adept and two masters isn’t making the choices to come more compelling. Having it such that I’m stuck with three trait lines rather than the ability to distribute points as I see fit within and up to as many as five lines isn’t widening my scope of choice. Making it so that after these changes my choice of armour attribute(berserk, knights, carrion, cleric’s etc.) will further exalt me or make me a pariah to a community that will even more heavily embrace meta equipment builds afterward isn’t enticing me toward anything more than choosing some other option for how I spend my free time.

After these changes demands for pinging armour/gear will be that much more strident as your build will no longer be the abilities you choose but rather what your character is wearing.

What’s happening is that by dint of a system which, in future, will be much more restrictive, I’m going to be compelled to choose something which I won’t necessarily want or need in order to be included. Something wrong with that as the current appeal for this game is in having the ability to log in, join a queue, and then get into something group-oriented quickly, and without much fuss. This, even with the current dungeoning environment being as toxic as it is.

So how is making it more toxic a good or even better thing?

The quality of finding something compelling- or alluring, is not the same as being compelled- or forced against one’s will. But here we’re being given the latter sold as the former.

And hey- I’ll say it. Hang gliders aren’t that cool either.

I really do hope that this really isn’t right, and we won’t be limited to three trait lines (or specialization lines). I don’t use grandmaster, nor have I ever really had the desire to do so, on any of my mains. I instead go for a spread, and I don’t think any of the characters I enjoy playing on have points in less than four lines. It doesn’t make the game better taking that from them, it just means I literally send every character back to the drawling board rather than tailoring in changes I want. This really is a limit on diversity, and the accompanying reward of getting grandmaster traits doesn’t work if I don’t want anything in the grandmaster trait mix, but did want something from a fourth line that is no longer accessable within the changed framework.

I’ve quite enjoyed two years of having diverse builds, and am quite effective in the game with them. I just am hoping that this is just a misreading on the intentions of the developers.

Iozeph.5617:

“Quality > Quantity

Why have the option for 27 builds when only 5 of those are actually optimal or high end?"

And just what in this game is high end? The same dungeons everyone has been running for the last two or more years? Or the same fractals everyone has been running for a bit less than that? It certainly couldn’t be world bosses. Near every aspect of play in this game -as in going out and hunting monsters- is built around inclusiveness. So I don’t see what that’s about.

As for the trait changes themselves it seems to be the same brand of doublespeak that was thrown about before the trait system revamp of Lord of The Rings Online.

There, as it seems now here, it was bandied about that there was, ‘skill bloat’ ‘too many traits’ and that it confused players. So they simplified it. They gave us trait trees, stripped some out, and gated certain skills, once utilised regardless of traiting, behind individual trees whilst making it restrictive to hybridise as before. All in the interest of ‘focusing class roles’ and making it ‘simpler to implement and balance group oriented content’ None of which ever materialised. And yet those class changes stuck. The upshot? Beyond griping, or holding its current incarnation up for ridicule, nobody talks about lotro anymore. So few that lotro is all but abandoned by its former community.

If you’ve played through a few of these games- and their changes over the years you begin to gain a feel for what’s coming- or rather see familiar patterns reasserting themselves- things which factor in whenever someone asks you, “Why did you leave your last game?”

What I’ve read today is that trait lines will be changed, skills will be changed to make choosing them more compelling, but there again I only hear doublespeak with as hyper, positive, and as hard a sell as possible to make readers ignore/forget the past as well as whatever current feelings of dread they might be experiencing. It isn’t working.

Making it such that I’m no longer able to choose three adept skills, two adepts and a master, or one adept and two masters isn’t making the choices to come more compelling. Having it such that I’m stuck with three trait lines rather than the ability to distribute points as I see fit within and up to as many as five lines isn’t widening my scope of choice. Making it so that after these changes my choice of armour attribute(berserk, knights, carrion, cleric’s etc.) will further exalt me or make me a pariah to a community that will even more heavily embrace meta equipment builds afterward isn’t enticing me toward anything more than choosing some other option for how I spend my free time.

After these changes demands for pinging armour/gear will be that much more strident as your build will no longer be the abilities you choose but rather what your character is wearing.

What’s happening is that by dint of a system which, in future, will be much more restrictive, I’m going to be compelled to choose something which I won’t necessarily want or need in order to be included. Something wrong with that as the current appeal for this game is in having the ability to log in, join a queue, and then get into something group-oriented quickly, and without much fuss. This, even with the current dungeoning environment being as toxic as it is.

So how is making it more toxic a good or even better thing?

The quality of finding something compelling- or alluring, is not the same as being compelled- or forced against one’s will. But here we’re being given the latter sold as the former.

And hey- I’ll say it. Hang gliders aren’t that cool either.

…extremely well said

After reading the potential changes for HoT with how traits work, I logged into my main and checked out my spec…. I kinda forgot how weird it was. I enjoyed tweaking a point here and a point there to find a happy place for my play style, weapon choices, utility slot choices etc. Truth be told, I don’t see a lot of people playing thieves the way I made my thief. It wasn’t about being “special” (lol puke) or different, it was just about being able to take a fine comb and really fiddle with the traits. It sounds like its going to be a pretty mundane task now. Select 3 paths. Select 1 of 3 traits per tier. I’m not upset or devastated about it….but it does sound kind of boring. Ironically, it kind of feels like traiting will become like gear is now. Anet says they have a problem with the masses using Zerker gear, but then they are creating a trait system that sounds like it’s going to be as simple as “just use zerker gear”.

With various traits merging into abilities and other traits, yes, its a buff to said abilities and traits, but it is simplifying things and taking out variation. Like I said before, I’m not cut up about it, but I am not pro the idea. I’ve experienced playing an MMO for years as it gradually got stripped of features and simplified and all that I left. I’m just one player, so my little post here doesn’t hold much weight at all, but that is just my 2 cents. I’m curious to see what they do regarding traits when they bring out HoT.

(Edit: Typo)

better smaller variation than imaginary variation… when you have 13 traits from which 5 is useless, 3 is good, but don’t fit any build and the rest is taken with very small differences, it’s not a real variation… I will rather have less but more impactful choices which are all useful for someone, just in different ways

MaXi.3642:

better smaller variation than imaginary variation… when you have 13 traits from which 5 is useless, 3 is good, but don’t fit any build and the rest is taken with very small differences, it’s not a real variation… I will rather have less but more impactful choices which are all useful for someone, just in different ways

removing options does not give you more impactful options, thats the big illogical jump people keep making.

say you have 10 dates to choose from
5 of them cancel

are the 5 left somehow better than before?

MaXi.3642:

better smaller variation than imaginary variation… when you have 13 traits from which 5 is useless, 3 is good, but don’t fit any build and the rest is taken with very small differences, it’s not a real variation… I will rather have less but more impactful choices which are all useful for someone, just in different ways

And that’s just it, right? Who’s to say that everything we have right now isn’t useful, in some fashion, to someone who just happens to not be you or I?

Who’s to say that just giving classes additional weapons options and some new unique abilities gained through Maguuma questing wouldn’t be enough? That balancing would come no better nor worse a task than the balancing needed for the proposed changes? And yet so often MMO development studios feel the need to tinker and tamper with core game mechanics, treating each coming expansion as a blank slate. This, in addition to whatever new play mechanics, landmasses, and classes introduced.

Players are asking for new contents. What they aren’t asking for is a bright red ‘no confidence’ stamp on works developed hitherto.

Not all change is terrible. And if Heart of Thorns was just a bundle consisting of some new weapons types for established classes, a new class, and a new landmass they could call it a day and job well done. The core mechanic revamp- which will be the second of this sort in three years comes across as just another waste of development time and money. Another arbitrary change for the sake of change.

Shouldn’t have to be mentioned, but the ‘Great MMO Migration,’ the embarrassment staged by Anet a couple of years ago, took advantage of just these sorts of misguided changes on the parts of competing MMO’s in order to steal away parts of their disaffected player bases.

Yet now it seems the honeymoon is over. And the company that sold those new players on not resorting to the same sorts of misguided ‘innovations’ is doing just that. Makes one wonder who’s going to site GW2 as part of the problem when the next publicity stunt of this sort is tried.

MaXi.3642:

better smaller variation than imaginary variation… when you have 13 traits from which 5 is useless, 3 is good, but don’t fit any build and the rest is taken with very small differences, it’s not a real variation… I will rather have less but more impactful choices which are all useful for someone, just in different ways

I think a lot of players are quick to dismiss things as useless because they don’t fit their build choices or the current meta. Sure, there are traits that don’t have as much impact compared to others, or have limited usefulness. But that doesn’t mean those traits have no use, or that the trait with more impact has a use in the current build.

The way to improve the game, and build variety, is to adjust or rework the less used or more niche traits to be more generally useful. Removing the less often used traits is just a cheap and lazy solution.

Actually, I’m still not sure if this is the result of laziness/trying to make balancing easier, or just the next step in the ongoing process of dumbing down.

phys.7689:

MaXi.3642:

better smaller variation than imaginary variation… when you have 13 traits from which 5 is useless, 3 is good, but don’t fit any build and the rest is taken with very small differences, it’s not a real variation… I will rather have less but more impactful choices which are all useful for someone, just in different ways

removing options does not give you more impactful options, thats the big illogical jump people keep making.

say you have 10 dates to choose from
5 of them cancel

are the 5 left somehow better than before?

to fix your example, you need to add a fact that you want to find a date for a business meeting and those 5 days you cancel are weekend days… then yes, the remaining days are better, because you don’t want to work at weekend, you could, but why would you do that when there are better options?

mrstealth.6701:

MaXi.3642:

better smaller variation than imaginary variation… when you have 13 traits from which 5 is useless, 3 is good, but don’t fit any build and the rest is taken with very small differences, it’s not a real variation… I will rather have less but more impactful choices which are all useful for someone, just in different ways

I think a lot of players are quick to dismiss things as useless because they don’t fit their build choices or the current meta. Sure, there are traits that don’t have as much impact compared to others, or have limited usefulness. But that doesn’t mean those traits have no use, or that the trait with more impact has a use in the current build.

The way to improve the game, and build variety, is to adjust or rework the less used or more niche traits to be more generally useful. Removing the less often used traits is just a cheap and lazy solution.

yes we could just improve bad traits, but with limited skill slots and weapons you don’t have so many choices for trait ideas unless you want to make a trait for every single skill separately, which would be bad idea… and when you merge some traits, their numbers are getting thin, you consider some traits as necessary and you implement them as a default functionality, the number of remaining traits is even smaller now… and then what?

I have also said that it’s better to have smaller variation than imaginary variation, not that it is better to have smaller variation than bigger variation… you should read properly… because what we have now is just an imaginary variation, just look at used builds for some classes, I don’t know them all, but ele definitely don’t have many useful builds even when I consider non-meta builds…

phys.7689:

removing options does not give you more impactful options, thats the big illogical jump people keep making.

say you have 10 dates to choose from
5 of them cancel

are the 5 left somehow better than before?

You are the one making the illogical jump. What you describe is irrelevant. It would only apply if Anet announced that the only change they are making in the current system is removing traits. Nothing else, you still assign points, unlock them through the NPE system, but some traits are just removed. No compensation.

This is what you are describing. But this is not what’s happening.

What is happening is this:

I’m giving you dyes in-game. They are not account bound and you can sell them. You can choose only 2 of the following:

Rare: Abyss, Celestial
Uncommon: Summer Grass, Lilac, Sunrise Breeze
Common: Pink Ice, Sea Ice, Citrus

There are a lot of possible choices, but in reality, you will pick the 2 rare dyes and either keep them or sell and bye whichever dyes you want. Thus, you only have 1 viable choice.

Now I’m offering you these bundles, and you need to pick 1:

Abyss+Pink Ice+Citrus
Summer Grass+Lilac+Sunrise Breeze
Celestial+Sea Ice+Citrus

Now, you have more than 1 viable choice, even if the number of possible choices is greatly reduced.

RabbitUp.8294:

Now I’m offering you these bundles, and you need to pick 1:

Abyss+Pink Ice+Citrus
Summer Grass+Lilac+Sunrise Breeze
Celestial+Sea Ice+Citrus

Now, you have more than 1 viable choice, even if the number of possible choices is greatly reduced.

There is only 1 viable choice there. The set that includes celestial, because its value is higher than all others combined. If you need/want celestial, you now have it. If you don’t need it, you can sell it, buy all the others and still have a considerable amount of gold left over.

It’s a flawed comparison because dyes have a point of absolute comparison, their value in gold. Traits have no direct comparison.

The truth is that we don’t know how things are being reworked or combined. A trait is still “lost” if it’s combined with a trait in another line that is not useful for a build. We have no reason to assume that traits will be changed in a manner that retain the current amount of viable options.

RabbitUp.8294:

phys.7689:

removing options does not give you more impactful options, thats the big illogical jump people keep making.

say you have 10 dates to choose from
5 of them cancel

are the 5 left somehow better than before?

You are the one making the illogical jump. What you describe is irrelevant. It would only apply if Anet announced that the only change they are making in the current system is removing traits. Nothing else, you still assign points, unlock them through the NPE system, but some traits are just removed. No compensation.

This is what you are describing. But this is not what’s happening.

What is happening is this:

I’m giving you dyes in-game. They are not account bound and you can sell them. You can choose only 2 of the following:

Rare: Abyss, Celestial
Uncommon: Summer Grass, Lilac, Sunrise Breeze
Common: Pink Ice, Sea Ice, Citrus

There are a lot of possible choices, but in reality, you will pick the 2 rare dyes and either keep them or sell and bye whichever dyes you want. Thus, you only have 1 viable choice.

Now I’m offering you these bundles, and you need to pick 1:

Abyss+Pink Ice+Citrus
Summer Grass+Lilac+Sunrise Breeze
Celestial+Sea Ice+Citrus

Now, you have more than 1 viable choice, even if the number of possible choices is greatly reduced.

no, that is not analogous.

like really really not analogous

Hmm, you are right, I underestimated how big the price margin between the 2 dyes is (even though technically speaking, if we are doing this thought experiment, prices would be affected by these free bundles I’m offering).

That’s not the point, in this case, though. The point is that if you are completely free to choose, options like picking 2 rare dyes become available and overshadow the rest.

phys.7689:

no, that is not analogous.

like really really not analogous

The analogy is fine, even if the prices screw my example up a bit.

Yours, on the other hand, was false. You keep repeating an imaginary scenario that you had 10 different things to choose from and you are now are left with 5, which is not what happened.