looking back at the 5 elder races of tyria, we have the Jotun and the Dwarves both of which greatly damaged their civilizations through civil war, then we have the Mursaat and the Seer the two elder races who fought each other, and finally we have the Forgotten who didn’t battle against any of the other elder races but have fought against several of the playable races in GW2 (charr, humans [margonites and elonians], and demons).
Unfortunately it looks like the current 5 playable races could easily fall into a similar pattern if they are able to defeat the elder dragons, the truce between the charr and humans will most likely be broken and follow the path the mursaat and seer took before them.
The sylvari and norn I would assume are the most likely to fall to civil wars once the dragons are defeated, the wardens against the nightmare court, and the wolfborn against the SoS (I cant see the SoS allowing their “spirit animal” to be killed without a fight).
The asura match up with the forgotten, their problems seem to be more of creating enemies of other races (many of them through experiments [ex. skritt, charr, ect.])
I’m not so sure I agree. The main reasons the elder races fell, mainly the Seers and Mursaat is that they failed to stop the dragons, but more over they failed to come together in the way the current generation of races has. iirc the mursaat essentially betrayed the Seers and other races in order to save themselves from the dragons.
The jotun are a great cautionary tale to be sure and I think all the current races would be wise to check their greed and vanity lest they end up like the jotun. Personally, I think the asura are the most likely to fall to this sort of thing.
The dwarves had the Stone Summit sure, but I don’t see having a civil war as a sign of a race failing. I mean the humans had the Guild Wars, the Luxon/Kurzick feud, the Krytan Civil War and lots of other infighting in Elonian history. The dwarves are rather inspiring imo, they basically martyred their entire race to stem the tide of Primordous’ minions. I think the mere fact that destroyers haven’t completely overrun the surface is thanks to the dwarves.
There are are some similarities but overall I think the main thing that will decide the future of the current races is the success or failure of the Pact. Ideally if they can defeat all the elder dragons there would be a sort of golden age to follow. I mean after banding together with so many different peoples for the common good for so long (wiping out the elder dragons is going to take a long time) I doubt many people would fall back to old feuds, at least not for a while.
Something else that must be remembered when discussing dwarves, especially in light of how GW2 overplays them, is that the Stone Summit were a very recent thing- “within the last generation” at the time of Prophecies. Even if dwarvern generations are longer than human ones, you’d be looking at less than sixty years, certainly, and at the end of at least 10,000 years of history and culture. I wouldn’t call a conflict that occurred during the last .6% of a culture’s span its downfall, not unless it wipes the race out entirely- and as Riot mentioned, it was a different war that accomplished that, albeit one falling close on the heels of the civil war.
The seers fell during the previous Elder Dragon rise, and the mursaat fell only in 1072 AE – over 11,000 years post the ED going to sleep. The mursaat fled the world during the previous ED rise, thus preserving their species.
And as said, the dwarves’ fall was not due to the civil war. The Stone Summit lost the war in 1072 AE and got exiled into the Far Shiverpeaks. Within 50 years, they had returned and reintegrated with Deldrimor, before the race underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf. What caused the dwarves’ fall was that ritual, not the civil war.
And one can argue that the Forgotten have yet to fall – they, like the mursaat had done – merely went into the Mists. It seems their race split into two groups during the Exodus – one remaining with Glint, the other going with the Six Gods. Those who went with Glint have by all our knowledge – or rather, lack thereof – has probably died off during Prophecies by the hands of the PCs during the Ascension tests. But the other group likely, again by all our (lack of) knowledge, still thrives in the Mists.
I don’t really see the modern races following this path. And if any group were to go the route of the Forgotten, it would be the humans. Reason being is that they already have a history of making wars with other groups (centaurs, themselves, charr, tengu, etc.) and they are the most likely to go to the Mists after their time has come – following after the Six Gods. I also cannot see the norn falling to civil war – they’re too independent for this, as are the asura. Furthermore, the only unitedly hostile group of norn are the Sons of Svanir who’d die off with the threat of Jormag. The other races… well, I cannot really see any one race dying off except possibly humanity, to mimic the seers, nor do I see a race fleeing into the Mists to save their own hide (unless you count the Inquest as all asuranity). And on top of this, all playable races have threats of civil war (Renegades/Flame Legion; Bandits/Separatists; Nightmare Court; Sons of Svanir; Inquest).
The seers fell during the previous Elder Dragon rise, and the mursaat fell only in 1072 AE – over 11,000 years post the ED going to sleep. The mursaat fled the world during the previous ED rise, thus preserving their species.
And as said, the dwarves’ fall was not due to the civil war. The Stone Summit lost the war in 1072 AE and got exiled into the Far Shiverpeaks. Within 50 years, they had returned and reintegrated with Deldrimor, before the race underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf. What caused the dwarves’ fall was that ritual, not the civil war.
And one can argue that the Forgotten have yet to fall – they, like the mursaat had done – merely went into the Mists. It seems their race split into two groups during the Exodus – one remaining with Glint, the other going with the Six Gods. Those who went with Glint have by all our knowledge – or rather, lack thereof – has probably died off during Prophecies by the hands of the PCs during the Ascension tests. But the other group likely, again by all our (lack of) knowledge, still thrives in the Mists.
I don’t really see the modern races following this path. And if any group were to go the route of the Forgotten, it would be the humans. Reason being is that they already have a history of making wars with other groups (centaurs, themselves, charr, tengu, etc.) and they are the most likely to go to the Mists after their time has come – following after the Six Gods. I also cannot see the norn falling to civil war – they’re too independent for this, as are the asura. Furthermore, the only unitedly hostile group of norn are the Sons of Svanir who’d die off with the threat of Jormag. The other races… well, I cannot really see any one race dying off except possibly humanity, to mimic the seers, nor do I see a race fleeing into the Mists to save their own hide (unless you count the Inquest as all asuranity). And on top of this, all playable races have threats of civil war (Renegades/Flame Legion; Bandits/Separatists; Nightmare Court; Sons of Svanir; Inquest).
very interesting points everyone and thank you, but I do question that all races have the threat of civil war, because as far as I know
1) the inquest is a legitimate group in the eyes of the arcane council, their morals maybe different but they don’t go outside the law (or maybe they just pay off the right people)
2) the four high legions seem to be more like countries then states, as they were only ever completely unite by one monarch like figure (the Khan-ur).
3) I suppose most separatists would be considered Ascolonians, so that would probably be considered more along the lines of war/terrorism, but if there was a bandit uprising I suppose that would be a potential civil war.
4) the other two I agree on.
The Inquest were also always being hunted down by groups of peacemakers, which are the asura police force. They may have been legitimate at one point in time, but it is likely that they have lost that legitimacy after the conclusion of the Crucible of Eternity dungeon. Zojja promised to use the evidence she gathered to force the Arcane Council against them.
The Flame Legion is at war with every legion not under their command, I would say that is as close to civil war as you can get, especially since they are able to hold their own against all others (their final defeat doesn’t seem emminent until the inclusion of the Pact in the Charr war efforts).
The bandits are also very strong and cunning, although I will admit that they are the furthest thing from a Civil War in all of this. Their numbers really aren’t enough to try and force any claim, they are more just used as pawns in order to attempt to shift influence away from the queen.
interesting had forgotten that part at the end of crucible of eternity, thank you for that. but I don’t think the war between the flame legion and the other three high legions could be considered a civil war, as they had been allied for a time but their period of unification under one strong government(the Khan-Ur) was so short that they can’t legitimately be considered one nation state or republic, it is most certainly a war I just don’t think it falls under the definition of a civil war.
very interesting points everyone and thank you, but I do question that all races have the threat of civil war, because as far as I know
1) the inquest is a legitimate group in the eyes of the arcane council, their morals maybe different but they don’t go outside the law (or maybe they just pay off the right people)
2) the four high legions seem to be more like countries then states, as they were only ever completely unite by one monarch like figure (the Khan-ur).
3) I suppose most separatists would be considered Ascolonians, so that would probably be considered more along the lines of war/terrorism, but if there was a bandit uprising I suppose that would be a potential civil war.
4) the other two I agree on.
On the Inquest, technically yes but the Inquest are also hostile to every asura if hostility proved it provides benefits. They are not an outright “civil war” – not in the traditional sense of army versus army, but if you remove Flaxx’s support for asuran dominance over all others, or you remove the Inquest’s effectiveness in obtaining results, then you lose the Arcane Council’s support for the Inquest. The civil war that’d occur is not full-blown since, like norn, the asura are not united. And it would not be armies, as I said, but more of subterfuge and a battle of inventions. Nonetheless, there’d be open conflict. The only thing that gives the Inquest any form of saving grace as a “legitimate group” is Flaxx’s desire for asuran dominance over the other races. He is the sole reason why the Inquest are allowed in Rata Sum and Soren Draa. And outside there? Full hostility with the Inquest.
No one really compared the legions to “states” nor “countries” – I would also argue they are like individual but united nations (no pun intended). So I got no comment on that. Still it would be a civil war among the charr, as they are still united and are a single race. Nonetheless, the Renegades come from the three legions. They are defectors who made their own “legion” of sorts and declared war on their own nations. It would be like if Germany, France, and Italy fell into civil war and one side of each nation’s civil war allied together to form a new nation. Furthermore, the charr could be argued to have been in civil war since the Khan-Ur’s death – the four legions have always been hostile-but-allied with each other; when their leaders’ views coincide they work together, when they don’t they fight. The charr empire of the Khan-Ur fell under civil war with his death and has remained as such since.
For the Separatists – the civil war would be Separatists versus Ebon Vanguard, more or less. They do act like terrorists, but they are separate (currently) from the main body of government of Ascalonians. Ascalonian versus Ascalonian is civil war.
As for the bandits – it kind of has been a civil war for the past 250 years. It began with the White Mantle versus Shining Blade. It has just diminished from open warfare to guerrilla warfare.
interesting had forgotten that part at the end of crucible of eternity, thank you for that. but I don’t think the war between the flame legion and the other three high legions could be considered a civil war, as they had been allied for a time but their period of unification under one strong government(the Khan-Ur) was so short that they can’t legitimately be considered one nation state or republic, it is most certainly a war I just don’t think it falls under the definition of a civil war.
That’s be like saying that Alexander the Great’s kingdom-nation-dynasty-whatever it’s technically called was not such, because it only existed under his reign and then fell under civil war and was divided into collapse. The charr history is the same, more or less, except that they didn’t collapse. Like Alexander, the Khan-Ur claimed large amounts of land and died before naming a successor. Like Alexander’s followers, the Khan-Ur’s four children all decided they should rule and had taken control of various parts of the Khan-Ur’s rule and went against each other for the right to rule. The only thing the charr had to save them from collapsing is an external enemy (humanity).
No historian would not say that Alexander the Great’s nation didn’t fall under civil war with his death.
yes but the Khan ur was alive before the year 100be meaning the last time a charr nation was uniting all four legions was 1426years ago, while it has been longer since the Macedonian empire under alexander the great (2346 years), I don’t believe anyone today would call a war between Greece and Egypt a civil war (even though they were both united under alexander the great as part of his Macedonian empire), there has been too much time that has pasted in both situations to consider either one to be united kingdom.
Also I suppose that yes the separatist could very much be considered a civil war against the ebon vanguard, although it seems they are far more focused on their enemies in the charr. On another matter would you consider Ascalon to be a city state now or do you consider it to still be a nation because of the ascalon settlement in gendaran fields(seems like it is under krytan rule but I believe there was a noble or senator of sorts that didn’t consider the settlement part of their(krytan) nation and didn’t deserve protection from centaur attacks or something along those lines.)
Just yeah why can’t humans have civil war?
You have factions who are completely against Queen Jennah, in fact the Ministry probably wants her thrown out. If she has no children or successors who can take the royal throne, what’s going to happen then? Who will be fighting for power of the government? You have a little Ebonhawke and then people who might just be against human-charr treaty like the separatist/terrorists, but there may be entire factions hiding who still really really want to retake Ascalon, drive the Charr out, clear the ghosts (if that’s even possible) and build a new city? idk. There’s also a whole bandit / White Mantle network, which is enormous bc you see bandits like everywhere, especially massive forts in Brisban (and especially that fort with the level 80 bandits guarding it that received a mention in a WP video…. that guards the next map…. ) To me, the humans are likely to fall into civil war, though I don’t know if humans can ever be wiped out so fast, since they are like quite persistent little fellows
Asura / Inquest would have conflicts but it’ll probably take a much longer time. or their experiments and inventions create some sort of apocalyptic catastrophe.
I feel like the Sylvari and Nightmare Court don’t struggle against each other that hard, it feels like they’d rather try to convince people to join the light side / dark side, rather than full out war. There will still be conflict, every race has their own.
Charr, for the most part I think Renegades and Flame Legion isn’t so big of a threat than it appears in game. They’ve literally defeated those factions with their “united” cross-legion technology and military prowess.. massive Black Citadel, and their culture is very disciplined and well trained etc. Though you always have conflicts, it almost feels like…. Japan… in a way… like it’s not an open conflict, they value family and comradery, they work hard together and don’t want to be shunned, and the violent extremists are quickly pushed out or eliminated or whatnot. Each legion also tries to keep to itself though they don’t LIKE each other, they will tolerate each other for the most part. And when conflict arises I feel it will be a limited scope, like one certain warband has an issue and is ticked off or something. It’ll have to be like an assassination of a tribune or something big, like kill rytlock or something for Legions to get really kitten ed off? Charr military strength is quite strong and united imo. though there’s conflict I feel they are a self-sustaining nation that can subdue the Flame Legion forces. After all, the Flame Legion is hated not because of Elder Dragons, if Dragons are out of the picture, they will still push back the Flame Legion.
I don’t know enough about norn
I’m just speaking off the top of my head with what “vibe” i feel rather than hard fact
yes but the Khan ur was alive before the year 100be meaning the last time a charr nation was uniting all four legions was 1426years ago, while it has been longer since the Macedonian empire under alexander the great (2346 years), I don’t believe anyone today would call a war between Greece and Egypt a civil war (even though they were both united under alexander the great as part of his Macedonian empire), there has been too much time that has pasted in both situations to consider either one to be united kingdom.
There’s a huge flaw in your argument. That flaw is that Greece and Egypt are not the same nations as those which Alexander’s nation divided into. The charr, on the other hand, are the same nations – and they were also united under the Flame Legion for 200 years, though that’s probably more comparative to an empire with its vassal states having usurped the main nation.
On another matter would you consider Ascalon to be a city state now or do you consider it to still be a nation because of the ascalon settlement in gendaran fields(seems like it is under krytan rule but I believe there was a noble or senator of sorts that didn’t consider the settlement part of their(krytan) nation and didn’t deserve protection from centaur attacks or something along those lines.)
Ascalon I would argue to be another nation still, just without an official leader – instead having a Regnant in the form of Jennah. Ascalon Settlement is, however, now a Krytan town – it just formed as a colony of sorts of Ascalon.
yes but the Khan ur was alive before the year 100be meaning the last time a charr nation was uniting all four legions was 1426years ago, while it has been longer since the Macedonian empire under alexander the great (2346 years), I don’t believe anyone today would call a war between Greece and Egypt a civil war (even though they were both united under alexander the great as part of his Macedonian empire), there has been too much time that has pasted in both situations to consider either one to be united kingdom.
There’s a huge flaw in your argument. That flaw is that Greece and Egypt are not the same nations as those which Alexander’s nation divided into. The charr, on the other hand, are the same nations – and they were also united under the Flame Legion for 200 years, though that’s probably more comparative to an empire with its vassal states having usurped the main nation.
Ok but then the argument could be changed to a war between Iran and Iraq, wouldn’t be considered a civil war…I also don’t see how you say that my earlier argument is flawed if you don’t mind explaining in more detail, also the flame legion never truly united the other legions and established a new khan ur they came close but they failed, similar to Edward III, and the black prince during the first part of the hundred years war. (there are far better examples but with the exodus of the bloody prince and Halloween I couldn’t pass it up)
I explained how the argument is flawed. The nations that Alexander the Great’s own divided into had long since fallen. Modern Greece and modern Egypt are far cries from being the same nations – politically or otherwise – as the nations of that time. The nations that cover those lands have risen and fallen time and time again – and the same is more or less accurate anywhere in the world for such a huge timespan.
However, the Flame Legion in 1 BE is the same group as the Flame Legion in 1325 BE – by all our indication – and same goes for the other three Legions.
That’s probably the most unrealistic thing about fantasy settings. You have kingdoms and nations thriving for thousands of years under the same kind of leaderships. Just look at Europe’s history to see how common such a thing is. Royalty (as in the royal families) changes far sooner than ‘thousands of years’ – if nothing else.
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