Guild Wars 2

Conncept.7638:

The Flame Legion won, the Charr (as a race) rely on no one but themselves and as such have no right to take credit because the majority of the power behind the flame legion was not theirs. As much as they claim to be so great, they charr never accomplished anything without help from otherworldly powers.

In Eye of the North, I noted what whiners the Charr were. They kept talking big, but only fought once (and relied on humans, Asura and Dwarves to prepare for that fight). They admitted that they needed bribes to be set free if they were captured and the Humans were not around to rescue them. They refused to surrender and would try to take everything down in defeat (kind of like the Foefire they would later complain about). When the Dwarven, Asuran, Human and Norn forces prepared to attack the Destroyers, Pyre sat there and never offered the help of his Warband. After the fight, Pyre lectures you on finally learning what it means to be a hero. The Charr constantly belittle their allies every bit as bad as the Asura.

Fast forward 2.5 centuries. The Charr used treachery to overthrow the ones who won all their wars. They have the nerve to call the ones they backstabbed the traitors. Then they claim they are so great having killed their gods and built and conquered all of this. I found the Charr introduction laughable. I said “Yeah, they are still big talking whiners.” I find this find for a game, of course.

Humans would find and skin charr. They would then turn it into armor and wear it into battle against other charr. Both sides were brutal in their warfare. It just turned out that the charr were on the winning side of their brutality.

People are seriously trying to come up with which race are the ‘good guys’? None of the races, including the centaur, charr, human and asura are innocent if we look at their full history.

The reason the charr and the humans are ‘buddy buddy’ is that the war they have been fighting up till now has been little more than a stalemate for the last 200 years. Its a war that bleeds both groups and offers very little in the way of benifits if won. Its also over conflicts that started hundreds if not a thousand years earlier under very different racial nations.

Its a pointless war. The only real reason its been continuing is because both sides are taught from youth to hate the other. This is why you have them demonise Rurik and Adelbern. This is why most humans look at charr as little more than beasts and most charr look at humans as little more than vermin. The truth is that both groups have done an exceptional job of killing each other without actually acheiving final victory.

In the current Tyria, neither race is in a position to really spend resources fighting a pointless war just for the sake of hate. There is practically nothing to be gained by fighting and alot to be gained by building bridges. It wasnt simple. There have been groups like the seperatists and the renegades who outright opposed the truce and both groups have needed strong, practical leaders with the deplomatic savvy to both negociate with old enemies and sell the idea to their own people. Smolder is very lucky that the other two Imperitors agreed to the truce.

As for the centaurs, they have been fighting each other just as much as they have faught humans too. They are also fighting the Norn who technically are in land they once held. The only reason the centaurs are united is because one tribe has managed to enslave the other two. Several times in GW history its been stated, including by Ventari, that there is enough land for both the centaur and the humans. Old hatreds and territorial attitudes have dragged out an endless war.

Final point on the Foefire. The Foefire was a terrible thing but not because it killed all the attacking charr. Its terrible for what it did to the humans of Ascalon. Its extremely hypocritical of the charr to critisize the humans for using forbidden magic in war since the Searing was almost certainly the deciding factor in their successful invasion of Ascalon. If they had invaded without the Searing crippling Ascalon first, it would have quite likely been a very different war.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Pants.8315:

I’m also finding it hard to believe that you’re suggesting genocide (the foefire). Is more justifiable than the Charr turning to higher powers (the titans), and committing the searing, to gain lands that were once theirs.

The Charr ate, worked to death or killed for sport every human they captured. GW1, especially the bonus mission pack, made that clear. GW2 reinforced the stupidity of surrendering to the Charr. The Charr conquered a lot of human land, but where are the human descendants of the slaves they took?. Surrender was never an option. The Charr would have killed every human the Foefire did, anyway. The Foefire killed people that were about to be butchered, be worked to death or suffer other atrocity and it killed a military force. The Searing destroyed everything – the civilians, the towns, the forests, the fields – everything. Rytlock complained that Aldeburn would not surrender, but, let’s face it, the Charr never gave them that option. The Foefire was like the victim shooting the killer as the victim dies.

Ah someone who gets it.

Adelberne was a genius, not a madman. This would probably end if the charr grew a capacity for remorse, marched unarmed into the catacombs, presented adelberne with his son’s sword, and formally declared penitence for their atrocities.

plasmacutter.2709:

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Pants.8315:

I’m also finding it hard to believe that you’re suggesting genocide (the foefire). Is more justifiable than the Charr turning to higher powers (the titans), and committing the searing, to gain lands that were once theirs.

The Charr ate, worked to death or killed for sport every human they captured. GW1, especially the bonus mission pack, made that clear. GW2 reinforced the stupidity of surrendering to the Charr. The Charr conquered a lot of human land, but where are the human descendants of the slaves they took?. Surrender was never an option. The Charr would have killed every human the Foefire did, anyway. The Foefire killed people that were about to be butchered, be worked to death or suffer other atrocity and it killed a military force. The Searing destroyed everything – the civilians, the towns, the forests, the fields – everything. Rytlock complained that Aldeburn would not surrender, but, let’s face it, the Charr never gave them that option. The Foefire was like the victim shooting the killer as the victim dies.

Ah someone who gets it.

Adelberne was a genius, not a madman. This would probably end if the charr grew a capacity for remorse, marched unarmed into the catacombs, presented adelberne with his son’s sword, and formally declared penitence for their atrocities.

nope, adelbern was a bit of a dick with the foefire, it gave the charr no hope of ever reclaiming ascalon. a direct descendant of king doric needs to take the throne in ascalon city whilst holding sothohiem.

in other words, either queen jennah or mad king thorn (if he still counts, what with being technically dead and all) needs to rule ascalon or the foefire won’t end. and if jennah snuffs it and MKT DOESN’T count, ascalon is screwed and the human ghosts are forever tormented shells of what they once were, forever feeling like they’re on fire, unable to differentiate friend from foe
(I’m actually amazed anyone defends adelbern, he killed OUR GW1 CHARACTERS AND DOOMED THEM TO ENDLESS TORMENT, at least some of them anyway)

plasmacutter.2709:

This would probably end if the charr grew a capacity for remorse, marched unarmed into the catacombs, presented adelberne with his son’s sword, and formally declared penitence for their atrocities.

Rytlock Brimstone: “You lost this war long ago, and we’ll kill you until you get the point!”

Not likely to happen. Not soon, at any rate, and probably not willingly.

As for this “who was more brutal/merciless/evil” thing, like Narcemus said, both sides were. We just happened to have been playing on the Human’s side for pretty much the entirety of GW1 and only saw things from their perspective (or at least our characters’), at least until EoTN. Yeah, the Searing was a kitten move, but that doesn’t automatically make Humans goody-two-shoes or justify the Foefire, something that is arguably worse off for the Humans inside the blast radius than for the Charr, condemning the former to an eternity of mindless vigilance regardless of choice versus an instantaneous death for the latter.

True, the Foefire more likely than not kept Ebon Hawke (at least) from being overrun, but at what cost? If we’re going to treat those that got forcibly turned into ghosts (whom by the way were not all soldiers) as strategic pawns in an eternal war they may or may not have wanted to be a part of, against a race whose future generations may or may not remember (or care) what the ghosts were/are about, then we’re just trading the Humans’ atrocities with the Charrs’, demonizing theirs and justifying/discounting the Humans’. No one wins or comes out with both eyes.

Yeah, the Searing was a kitten move, but that doesn’t automatically make Humans goody-two-shoes or justify the Foefire

They nuked civilians, men, women, and children, they slowly and utterly destroyed anyone they captured in battle following this to the point there were no future generations.

The humans caught in the foefire most certainly have a better fate than what awaited them in charr hands.

Their ghosts respawning in the parlors of charr families and destroying their homes is a lasting reminder to them that, even in war, there are some tactics you just don’t use.

Since the charr have no conscience, even to this day, the ghosts of the foefire are their conscience, and will continue to rip at the heart of the black citadel until either it is destroyed or the charr learn remorse.

hmmmm this topic is getting derailed imo. Lets stay on topic pls. Ascalonians had a mad king doing wrong stuff, his son tried to save them all, but wasnt (fully)succesfully. The conflict between ascalonians and char is still ongoing. It is Queen Jenai who is behind the treaty and thats the reason why there are speratists imo.

But to the OP I would like to point out that GW1 has had many many plot twists. And though in GW2 it is so far reasonable straigt forward I suspect a few nice ones in the future. The reason why the charr are our friends now is well explained in many many places.

plasmacutter.2709:

Yeah, the Searing was a kitten move, but that doesn’t automatically make Humans goody-two-shoes or justify the Foefire

They nuked civilians, men, women, and children, they slowly and utterly destroyed anyone they captured in battle following this to the point there were no future generations.

The Foefire ghosts kill anyone, charr or not, who show up near the ruins they inhabit. They are just as bad :P

The charr were the original inhabitants of Ascalon. The humans migrated to Ascalon, and took the land away from the charr by force. Since the humans had magic and the charr didn’t, the humans won. To keep the charr out of their newly conquered territory, they built a wall along their northern border.
The charr started searching for magic of their own, so they could regain the lands they lost. Eventually, a warband from Flame Legion discovered the Titans. The Titans were the demonic minions of an evil, fallen God—Abbadon. The Titans gave the charr magic, but at a terrible cost. Abbadon was able to twist and corrupt the charr leadership.
The spiritual leaders of the charr, the Shaman Caste, became the keepers of the new magic. They plotted together in secret, under Abbadon’s evil influence, to take over and enslave all charr. They demanded that the charr worship Abbadon’s minions, the Titans, as their new Gods. This would essentially make the Shaman Caste the mouthpiece of the new Gods—so they could say and do whatever they pleased, and the rest of the charr would have to obey.
Balthea Havokbringer, a charr warrior, rebelled against the Shamans. Her rebellion was led by women, and it almost worked. Ultimatley it failed, because the Shamans had the magic. Balthea was killed, and all women were enslaved and made second class citizens.
Now that the Shaman Caste was in power, they used their magic to destroy the Great Wall built by the humans, and drive humans out of Ascalon. They retook their homeland.
Eventually, charr began to rebel against the Shaman Caste. They realized that the Titans were not true Gods, and not worthy of worship. They also realized that the Shaman Caste had tricked them to gain power. The rebellion was led by Pyre Fierceshot, and his granddaughter, Kalla Scorchrazor. It was successful—the charr were free from Abbadon’s influence and the Shamans, and women fought to gain equal rights again.
And that leaves us where we are today. The charr won the second war for Ascalon. Even so, the charr nation and the human nation would have remained enemies. But with the rise of the Dragons, both nations are being destroyed. They realize that if they keep fighting eachother, they won’t be able to fight the Dragons and everyone will die. So they have a cease fire, until the Dragons are taken care of. They definately aren’t buddy buddy—many charr and humans still hate one another. They just realize there are bigger problems at the moment.

plasmacutter.2709:

They nuked civilians, men, women, and children, they utterly destroyed anyone they captured in battle following this to the point there were no future generations.

The humans caught in the foefire most certainly have a better fate than what awaited them in charr hands.

Their ghosts respawning in the parlors of charr families and destroying their homes is a lasting reminder to them that, even in war, there are some tactics you just don’t use.

Since the charr have no conscience, even to this day, the ghosts of the foefire are their conscience, and will continue to rip at the heart of the black citadel until either it is destroyed or the charr learn remorse.

The Foefire also nuked civilians, men, women, and children (all Ascalonian, to boot), and on top of that condemned them to a mindless, frenzied, restless hell of an existence. I’m sure at least some would’ve been down for that, but everyone? Did anyone aside from Adelbern have a choice in the matter? Did the civilians? There’s a difference between dying for your home and getting turned into what is basically Ascalon’s version of the Risen for it.

As for that being better than getting killed by the Charr, I would have to disagree. Neither is good (obviously), but I would think a definite and relatively quick end at the hands of the Charr, followed by going into the Mists/afterlife, is preferable to a living hell that has so far lasted over two centuries, and that may or may never have an end. The Charr can just up and leave the entire area, and the ghosts would just be rooted there for an eternity with no possible rest in sight. As a matter of fact, if the Charr were spiteful, they could do just that.

There is no disagreement about certain tactics being ones you just don’t use in war, but the fact is those tactics have already been used by both sides. No side is getting away clean on this one. Additionally, I think the idea of the Ascalonian ghosts being a form of “conscience” for the Charr is itself despicable. They aren’t a summoned phantom army or the souls of dedicated individuals that by their own free will chose to become pawns in a potentially eternal war, they are the original Ascalonians that were robbed of a choice between life and death and enslaved into a ghost army by the will of one man. The Charr can leave, the ghosts can’t, and that I think is a fate worse than death.

The Foefire was in no way an ok thing. By far the worst crime it caused was the killing and cursing of every human in Ascalon apart from those in Ebonhawke. Thats a horrible fact to put your own people under because you dont like that you’ve lost. Adelbern was a jerk.

The only reason its worse than the Searing is because of that. Not what it did to the charr.

People are playing an odd which is worse game here. Its a pretty silly one. Both sides have grudges against each other for very good reasons. It was charr land first? Sure, over 900 years prior to the charr taking it back. That logic would mean that the humans certainly should hold a grudge for the lose of Ascalon since it has been only 250 years. Further, this is under the assumption that the Charr never took it from someone else in the first place. We know that the Charr fought with the Forgotten for example and they arent above taking things they want.

If your looking for some moral high ground here your not going to find it. In the end the CURRENT war was about old hatreds. BOTH sides are having to let go of these. The fact that the Charr are backing down and excepting the existance of Ebonhawke is a huge thing. Ebonhawke is a thorn in charr racial pride and has been for 200 years. Its existance means that even now they never completely defeated Ascalon. Part of it remains and is going to remain regardless of all their efforts to remove it. This means accepting the humans as more than just enemies to crush but actual neighbours.

For the humans, they are having to accept that Ascalon is now charr owned and humanity no longer has the resources, manpower or interests in getting it back. Humans are having to chose between fighting over something long ago lost or protecting and nurturing what they have today. This means accepting the charr are more than just beasts, letting go of ghosts and living for the future.

Tyria is a very different world for both the charr and the humans to what it once was. The charr and the humans themselves have changed alot both culturally and politically. The Searing and the Foefire happened long ago and the ones responsible for them are all dead (if in some cases ghosts). Both races are learning that they have to move on for practical reasons if nothing else.

The whole point of this treaty and its importance is it shows these two races, who probably have the strongest organised militaries among the 5 major races, moving on and learning deal with what is important now, not what was important hundreds of years ago.

Weindrasi.3805:

Balthea Havokbringer, a charr warrior, rebelled against the Shamans. Her rebellion was led by women, and it almost worked. Ultimatley it failed, because the Shamans had the magic. Balthea was killed, and all women were enslaved and made second class citizens.
Now that the Shaman Caste was in power, they used their magic to destroy the Great Wall built by the humans, and drive humans out of Ascalon. They retook their homeland.
Eventually, charr began to rebel against the Shaman Caste. They realized that the Titans were not true Gods, and not worthy of worship. They also realized that the Shaman Caste had tricked them to gain power. The rebellion was led by Pyre Fierceshot, and his granddaughter, Kalla Scorchrazor. It was successful—the charr were free from Abbadon’s influence and the Shamans, and women fought to gain equal rights again.
And that leaves us where we are today. The charr won the second war for Ascalon. Even so, the charr nation and the human nation would have remained enemies. But with the rise of the Dragons, both nations are being destroyed. They realize that if they keep fighting eachother, they won’t be able to fight the Dragons and everyone will die. So they have a cease fire, until the Dragons are taken care of. They definately aren’t buddy buddy—many charr and humans still hate one another. They just realize there are bigger problems at the moment.

Its ironic that it was humans that destroyed the gods that suppressed the charr in the first place. Pyre’s rebellion and the weakening of the Flame Legions hold on the other Legions owes alot to human heros and the Ebon Vanguard.

Its ironic that some of the greatest positive steps for the charr in the last 300 years have been due to involvement or support of either humans or a human god.

The charr would so hate that if they learned the truth.

Well, honestly it was in the best interest of humanity for the charr to fall into a civil war. I mean first in Prophecies you kill the Titans to remove the flame legion’s power source, and then you remove their leaders, giving them a civil war with the other charr legions. If it hadn’t been for those moves, charr wouldn’t be the independent thinkers that would give them the ability to accept a treaty with humanity.

Narcemus.1348:

Well, honestly it was in the best interest of humanity for the charr to fall into a civil war. I mean first in Prophecies you kill the Titans to remove the flame legion’s power source, and then you remove their leaders, giving them a civil war with the other charr legions. If it hadn’t been for those moves, charr wouldn’t be the independent thinkers that would give them the ability to accept a treaty with humanity.

See, killing the titans wasn’t just to screw over the charr. It was to keep the titans from running wild over Tyria. And Pyre’s rebellious warband was helped because the Vanguard was needed to help out against the Destroyers, not just to screw over the charr.

(It helps Pyre was the first charr who basically said “look, I don’t like you, but I can make use of your talents, so you get me out of here and help me and I’ll help you in return”)

Narcemus.1348:

Well, honestly it was in the best interest of humanity for the charr to fall into a civil war. I mean first in Prophecies you kill the Titans to remove the flame legion’s power source, and then you remove their leaders, giving them a civil war with the other charr legions. If it hadn’t been for those moves, charr wouldn’t be the independent thinkers that would give them the ability to accept a treaty with humanity.

Humans didnt really help out the char on purpose. The titans were more of a threat to them than the charr. The titans wanted to take down humanity cause of its ties to the other gods. The real target of the charr during their invasion was always Orr. As a shaman in the Realm of Torment commented, the titans kept pushing the charr onward, always towards Orr. Ascalon was as much in the way as anything as far as the titans were concerned and the charr were merely useful tools.

As for Pyre, the Ebon Vanguard, or rather the player character specifically, needed his help to save a number of their own. Afterward supporting Pyre’s rebellion was simply benifical as it might weaken the ruling body of charr.

Many people fail to understand that in the eyes of nearly every living person, GW1 events are pretty much ancient history. I say nearly because there are a couple souls that survive still. But we have to see that two hundred and fifty years is more than just a number.

The thing with Ascalon’s ghosts is more that they’re land mines left over from a conflict that ended lifetimes ago that continue to cause harm. The Charr that live there now, regardless of whatever attitudes they may hold, are entirely innocent of the crimes of their ancestors. The ghosts are mindlessly hostile, persistent and do them a lot of harm. If Kryta had pushed the Charr out and tried to take over the ghosts wouldn’t have acted any less hostile. So that removes any semblance of nobility from the act. It’s salting the earth, plain and simple. The bigger crime in the present is that the ghosts continue to suffer and they continue to inflict suffering on people who were not involved in the original conflict.

It’d be much like ghosts of fallen Mohawks or Aztecs being bound to hang around to kill the descendants of immigrants in the Americas. Sins were surely committed and most history has been whitewashed to the point where current people aren’t ashamed of it. We all know who won, so does that make all current-era denizens viable targets for vengeance?

The short answer is no. No matter how much anyone argues that so and so deserves this or that, the wars between humans are charr were mostly over five or six generations ago. Everyone who committed crimes one way or another is long dead. So are their grandchildren. It’s gone so far most of the meaning of the original conflict has been lost. Most of the charr and humans that are alive don’t actually have a reason to hate each other apart from societal prejudices. Both sides had bigger enemies to worry about and the only actual front for hostilities was Ebonhawke. The lore even states that most Charr considered finishing Ebonhawke as more trouble than it was worth. From the human’s perspective, Ebonhawke was doing all it could to just survive. Re-taking Ascalon wasn’t ever on the table as a viable option. Even if they pushed out they’d never hold it, as evidenced by the complete lack of human settlements outside the walls prior to the treaty. The war was just a pointless drain on resources for both sides just for the sake of their own pride.

It did take some initiative and effort to break the status quo, but most of the misunderstanding/rage on the topic comes from those GW1 players who don’t see or don’t accept that GW1’s events are far removed from GW2 and don’t factor into the goings on all that much.

Torrad.1075:

Many people fail to understand that in the eyes of nearly every living person, GW1 events are pretty much ancient history. I say nearly because there are a couple souls that survive still. But we have to see that two hundred and fifty years is more than just a number.

The thing with Ascalon’s ghosts is more that they’re land mines left over from a conflict that ended lifetimes ago that continue to cause harm. The Charr that live there now, regardless of whatever attitudes they may hold, are entirely innocent of the crimes of their ancestors. The ghosts are mindlessly hostile, persistent and do them a lot of harm. If Kryta had pushed the Charr out and tried to take over the ghosts wouldn’t have acted any less hostile. So that removes any semblance of nobility from the act. It’s salting the earth, plain and simple. The bigger crime in the present is that the ghosts continue to suffer and they continue to inflict suffering on people who were not involved in the original conflict.

It’d be much like ghosts of fallen Mohawks or Aztecs being bound to hang around to kill the descendants of immigrants in the Americas. Sins were surely committed and most history has been whitewashed to the point where current people aren’t ashamed of it. We all know who won, so does that make all current-era denizens viable targets for vengeance?

The comparison to land mines isn’t as good – land mines aren’t minimally sentient enough to pursue targets. But it is apt in the sense of “this is the weapon of a long-ago war which is still hurting people”. and like landmines, this can be disarmed in theory. Just . . . not likely to have it happen.

The big thing about the Foefire ghosts which has me putting it firmly in the same camp as the Searing . . . is the fact they do not differentiate targets. They attack anyone and everyone who is in the area, even Separtists. Second (not too distant) is that the people of Ascalon who died in the Foefire cannot find peace, from peasants who are just residents to warriors who were defenders instead of aggressors? All are equally bound to fight endlessly against any trespasser.

@Tobias He was saying that there is more too it than that they are just land mines from an old war. Not that they were just like it.

Also, in the Titan Source, the entire reason you fought those Titans was to remove the Titans that had driven the charr in their conquest. You see in the previous 4 quests you removed the Titans that the Lich Lord had sent out to conquer the lands. Thus in this quest you were removing the source of the Flame Legion’s power.

And yes I know that starting the charr civil war was not the reason that we completed our actions in Eye of the North, it was to save the Ebon Vanguard members. I was merely saying that whether or not it was humanity’s goal, it was in humanity’s best interest. I mean a civil war within the charr gave Ascalon more time before it’s demise, and it created the mindset within within the other Legions that made the treaty with humanity a possibility. Underneith the Flame Legion’s command it would be impossible.

Lutinz.6915:

Weindrasi.3805:

Balthea Havokbringer, a charr warrior, rebelled against the Shamans. Her rebellion was led by women, and it almost worked. Ultimatley it failed, because the Shamans had the magic. Balthea was killed, and all women were enslaved and made second class citizens.
Now that the Shaman Caste was in power, they used their magic to destroy the Great Wall built by the humans, and drive humans out of Ascalon. They retook their homeland.
Eventually, charr began to rebel against the Shaman Caste. They realized that the Titans were not true Gods, and not worthy of worship. They also realized that the Shaman Caste had tricked them to gain power. The rebellion was led by Pyre Fierceshot, and his granddaughter, Kalla Scorchrazor. It was successful—the charr were free from Abbadon’s influence and the Shamans, and women fought to gain equal rights again.
And that leaves us where we are today. The charr won the second war for Ascalon. Even so, the charr nation and the human nation would have remained enemies. But with the rise of the Dragons, both nations are being destroyed. They realize that if they keep fighting eachother, they won’t be able to fight the Dragons and everyone will die. So they have a cease fire, until the Dragons are taken care of. They definately aren’t buddy buddy—many charr and humans still hate one another. They just realize there are bigger problems at the moment.

Its ironic that it was humans that destroyed the gods that suppressed the charr in the first place. Pyre’s rebellion and the weakening of the Flame Legions hold on the other Legions owes alot to human heros and the Ebon Vanguard.

Its ironic that some of the greatest positive steps for the charr in the last 300 years have been due to involvement or support of either humans or a human god.

The charr would so hate that if they learned the truth.

Not nessecarily. From Kalla’s history and from the Ghosts of Ascalon novel, we already know that women had an underground organization of some kind that trained them for battle. That organization was active and aware of the Shamans’ betrayal a long time before the humans helped Pyre. In addition, it’s likely that other male warbands besides Pyre’s were aware of the Shaman’s betrayal as well. Given time, other charr would have taken up rebellion and been successful. The humans sped up history by a few years, and that’s about it.
Even if Flame Legion was never overthrown, it’s not like they’re an unsuccessful society. Flame Legion magic enabled the charr to win the war against the humans, and retake Ascalon. If Flame had stayed in power, the charr would have advanced magically rather than technologically, and progressed in a different direction.

Narcemus.1348:

Also, in the Titan Source, the entire reason you fought those Titans was to remove the Titans that had driven the charr in their conquest.

I can get your point, but those Titans are still a problem even if we’d destroyed all the others actively marching. All of the Titans which got loose needed to be destroyed or there was always going to be a danger from them. Also, I rather trust Glint had better reason for them to be destroyed than “let’s screw over the charr”.

Well in my mind “Let’s screw over the charr” and “OMG Save Ascalon” are in pretty much the same boat. I mean the Titan Quests were about saving humanity from the danger of the Titans. I mean I understand that the Titans were a threat to all of Tyria, but we were very focused on the effects to our race specifically, and so was Vizier Khilbron when he sent them out in the first place. I’m sure Glint’s reasoning behind finishing off these last Titans were to save the world, but my character was thinking first and foremost about the safety of his homeland, and the fact that removing the Titans would remove the magic that the charr had gained. It’s the same thought any person would have if their homeland was under threat by a scientific breakthrough from an enemy nation. The breakthrough could hurt the whole world, but your focus is it hurting your homeland.

Without the elder dragons, the Charrs would have overran the humans already. Humans are a bunch of farmers and scholars. Charrs already got airships, tanks and modern gun batteries.

Elder Dragons “saved” humanity, in a twisted sort of way.

CHIPS.6018:

Without the elder dragons, the Charrs would have overran the humans already. Humans are a bunch of farmers and scholars. Charrs already got airships, tanks and modern gun batteries.

Elder Dragons “saved” humanity, in a twisted sort of way.

No they didnt. Actually the dragons have been worse for the humans than the charr.

The first time the dragons really got in the charr’s face was when Kralkatorik woke up. Before then, as far as we are aware, the Elder Dragons were not actually threatening any of the charr lands.

On the other hand, the moment Zhaitan woke up, Kryta lost most of its southern coastline, including it’s capitol, and were forced to retreat and regroup further north. Humans also lost contact and access to other areas of the world, including the Battle Isles, where there was a strong human presence.

During that time Ebonhawke as been under constant seige. We are talking about 200 years of seige. The Iron Legion tested their war machines against the fortress because it was that hard to crack and the first charr to ever make it to the top of Ebonhawke’s walls has a statue in the Black Citadel.

The last 250 years have been pretty easy on the charr compared to the humans. Its only in the last 6 years that the dragons have become a serious problem for them. The humans on the other hand have barely gotten a break since the fall of Ascalon and still they have held the charr in a stalemate where the two groups are still fighting.

The charr are kitten and have an extremely powerful military. Humans in Tyria however are extremely tenacious, resourceful, cunning and powerful magic users. They have held their own very well against alot.

It could be argued that without the ghosts things may have been different. The ghosts have chewed up a great deal of charr resources. However without that internal threat the Legions could have just as easily ended up infighting. As Jeff Grubb said, one of the greatest threats to the charr are themselves. All it takes is one imperitor to fall out with the other two and you have the makings of a civil war. Fortunately the current imperitors get on pretty well it seems or at least see the advantage of cooperation.

Unless and until the charr have a Khan Ur there is always the risk of the Legions falling out.

Thomassassinate.9370:

I like the flame legion though. I want quests that involve destroying humans.

You can get them. It’s called hunting down bandits and renegades.

Oh, you meant the civilian race that’s just fighting against extinction at this point?

Yeah, okay, sure. Go ask the Flame Legion if you can join up and pledge to worship Bale Gaefire or whatever. I just hope for your sake that you don’t have any femcharr friends, they’ll break you over their knees.