Guild Wars 2

Magic!

So the dragons keep the magic balanced in the world according to her. Is that the true point of the dragons?

http://esprits-dorr.fr/node/261

If that is their actual purpose they have more or less been confirmed to not be actually evil.

In this sense, without the dragons, magic would continue to grow extremely potent and volatile to use and it’ll be like when Abaddon gifted magic to the humans if I understand this correctly.

Kyrel.8942:

In this sense, without the dragons, magic would continue to grow extremely potent and volatile to use and it’ll be like when Abaddon gifted magic to the humans if I understand this correctly.

Unlikely, since the Dragons already existed back then and should have risen and taken care of it if it was too strong.

I would rather say it would seem like the world might collapse without the Dragons though, due to the unstable nature that usually comes if something that gives balance suddenly stops.

Very interesting read.

We do know the Elder Dragons aren’t evil. They are forces of nature.

If they were to be destroyed, the ley lines would probably collapse due to the high amount of magic flowing through them. Potentially being catastrophic for Tyria. But if we don’t do something about the dragons, they’ll destroy everything in their path…

I’m so glad about this interview, always had doubts about how magic is used and this cleared them up.

lordkrall.7241:

If that is their actual purpose they have more or less been confirmed to not be actually evil.

I wouldn’t say that. Their goal in life isn’t evil, but how they go about seems to be.

That, or their influence while awake turns things evil. Or they geniunely believe that those who would stop them from keeping the world in balance is evil (aka all the races).

As to the Abaddon bit: It’s possible that the Elder Dragons stirred a bit. I mean, what’s the earliest mention of Glint after the Elder Dragons went to sleep? Quite some time after the Exodus…

Though that only goes to show that that much magic – if it truly wasn’t enough to wake the dragons (maybe it was enough in quantity, but not enough in timespan presence) – is still not as bad as it would be without the Elder Dragons around.

All we need to know now is this:

What happens when too much magic is concentrated?

When we know this, we’ll know what’ll happen should the Pact kill off all of the Elder Dragons.

Now to read the interview (responding as I read):

Interesting stuff on magic. First mention of ley lines I believe, though that could explain the blue lines on the globe in the Chantry of Secrets – which was one of the theories about those lines and dots.

This also confirms the theory that magic resides within the world of Tyria itself. The Artesian Waters must be right on top of one of those ley lines – a hotspot among them all.

Now my theory on the times of the dragon awakenings seems more likely, and the reason why they awoke now – that Abaddon messed with the natural flow of magic (though first the seers did) – is even more likely.

The interview also confirmed that it’s not just Primordus but all Elder Dragons who seep out magic while sleeping. This would hint that this “seeping of magic” is non-corruptive, otherwise effectively all magic in the world is corruptive. So the Elder Dragons have to proactively corrupt.

Angel says “An uncontrolled spell can do terrible damage.” – this would reactively mean “uncontrolled magic can do terrible damage” so a lot of concentrated magic… if it were to ever get out of control…

It also seems we have an indirect explanation for the lack of secondary professions – now people just simply specialize in a single profession, not wanting to spend the excessive time it would take to master two. I wonder what this means in relation to the Bloodstones’ schools though.

Though an interesting line is this: “And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real.” So combining two schools of magic can provide to be very dangerous? I wonder which such combinations would prove to be so. Aggression and Preservation (aka Necromancer and Monk/Paragon/Ritualist/Guardian)?

These schools aren’t as important in modern magic as they were even 250 years ago. They have fallen out of style as people have realized that magic doesn’t need these kinds of limiting factors.

Huh…

This is very interesting. This seems to imply that the four schools of magic are not created by the four bloodstones. That the bloodstones’ division of magic in such a manner is merely cultural disbelief.

More information is required, because it sounds here like Angel doesn’t know her GW1 lore.

It’s interesting to see something about how people learn magic. It seems magic in the whole is innate and the only thing taught about magic would be the specific spells and how to go about using magic, rather than how to use magic itself.

Good to see a wee bit more on waypoints, but I see she dodged the “how do they work” part.

Only the most ancient of humans (who have magical longevity) have lived more than 250 years and have seen a god or avatar face-to-face.

Oh? So is this meant to be the explanation behind Magi Malaquire and Livia?

The connection between the Mouvelian calendar and our real-world calendar is a practical one. Thanks to your question, we had a big discussion here. The Mouvelian calendar was established way back when Guild Wars was first being created. At that time, we had no idea we’d ever be doing Living World content like we are now. We’ve decided that we’re going to change the Mouvelian calendar to a 365-day year. Here’s the official in-game asuran announcement:

“Friends and fellows. Due to recent (amazing!) reasoning by scholars of the Astronomagical Society, we are pleased to announce that we have added the five hidden days to our calendar year! That’s five extra days we’ve recognized for you to advance your work before the annual review. Gifts and gratitude are unnecessary. We merely acknowledged them officially; we did not create them. May all your projects be almost as successful as ours.” — Mikk

Are you freakin’ kidding me?

“Oh hey, when this was made, we didn’t think we’d be doing this. So lets retcon it! 8D”

Goodbye ArenaNet, hello Blizzard 2.0 who’s lore is written on a piece of toilet paper. >.>

Next thing you know, they’re going to say “no, the Mouvelian calendar doesn’t start at the beginning of spring, it starts in the middle of winter!” Or they’ll go “the Mouvelian calendar didn’t have months in the past, so we decided to give twelve months to it – we named them January, February, March, April, June, July, August, September, October, November, and December.”

First basically retconning out the four schools of magic, and now altering the calendars for no reason? What about the Canthan calendar which has 12 months already of 30 days each? Or the Dynastic Reckoning calendar? Are the years between them now going to be messed up in transitioning, or are those going to get retconned to just to make the living story progress at the same time as reality?

GG Anet, kittening up the lore for non-lore reasons.

Hm… very, very good read. Though I would like some clarification on a couple points (she got a bit sidetracked on the first question, and some clarification as to rather the bloodstones ever had a divisive effect would be nice), it is very good to see a dev answer so many big questions in one go. Two big lore interviews in two weeks? Why, I almost feel spoiled.

As to the calender… Meh. I’m a bit disappointed, but it’s not like we didn’t see it coming. The Mouvelian calendar has been all but forgotten, at least from a game content perspective. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of ever seeing a Tyrian season named in-game, but I’ve seen several mentions of spring, summer, etc.

@Konig I’m actually rather surprised you jumped straight to the four schools being retconned. The thought that crossed my mind is that with environmental magic on the rise, the races don’t need to tap into the Bloodstones and their inherent limitations anymore. It’ll be interesting to see which one it turns out to be.

At the end, I think my biggest question is this: if magic can be tapped by practically any person, why is there such a low proportion of spellcasters? Even accounting for the rigors of study and discipline, the fairly even split between martial and magical classes seems odd. Both would take intensive training, but the inherent potential of magic is much larger. Apply that in-game, where most armies are skewed towards martial professions, and it becomes even odder.

Well, there went all the depth and mystery regarding magic.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As to the calender… Meh. I’m a bit disappointed, but it’s not like we didn’t see it coming. The Mouvelian calendar has been all but forgotten, at least from a game content perspective. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of ever seeing a Tyrian season named in-game, but I’ve seen several mentions of spring, summer, etc.

Did they ever need to do such a thing on the calendar though? No.

Think about it – if they want the living story and the calendar to sync up, then they’d need to quit the 2 hours of day and 2 hours of night. We pass 365 Tyrian days mechanically in just about a month for us! The game’s time spending and ours never synced up – neither for when the new year begins, let alone the Canthan new year (which is as far as we know, the same as the Mouvelian new year which would be Wintersday but the equivilant of our Spring Equinox), nor in the span of rate of updates. So why make some kitten attempt to explain such now?

It would have been far better to just go and say “it’s a matter of suspension of disbelief, though the Living Story updates on a semi-monthly basis, the Tyrian time and our time differ still.”

Though yeah, kind of sad that they’ve all but ignored the Seasons of the Scion, Zephyr, Colossus, and Phoenix names – replacing them fully with fall, spring, winter, and summer (even though those terms were used in GW1, the traditional Seasons of the _ were more common). _That were more common). That could more easily be attributed with a passage of time and culture though.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

@Konig I’m actually rather surprised you jumped straight to the four schools being retconned. The thought that crossed my mind is that with environmental magic on the rise, the races don’t need to tap into the Bloodstones and their inherent limitations anymore. It’ll be interesting to see which one it turns out to be.

Hmmm… I could see that, now that you mention it. But how she said it still feels like the Bloodstones never truly divided magic and it just was a teaching means by the human spellcasters.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

At the end, I think my biggest question is this: if magic can be tapped by practically any person, why is there such a low proportion of spellcasters? Even accounting for the rigors of study and discipline, the fairly even split between martial and magical classes seems odd. Both would take intensive training, but the inherent potential of magic is much larger. Apply that in-game, where most armies are skewed towards martial professions, and it becomes even odder.

That’s a good point to make and very curious.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

At the end, I think my biggest question is this: if magic can be tapped by practically any person, why is there such a low proportion of spellcasters? Even accounting for the rigors of study and discipline, the fairly even split between martial and magical classes seems odd. Both would take intensive training, but the inherent potential of magic is much larger. Apply that in-game, where most armies are skewed towards martial professions, and it becomes even odder.

I would reason it that though most everyone has magic, unless it’s developed then it isn’t too consequential. Or even say that for example, the warriors that may take an illusion as a hobby may be able to use one in certain situations but implementing all this personal flavor in game mechanics would be too daunting for the devs. So the lack of more magic users would really just be a matter of personal choice. We can all do math but we don’t mostly become mathematicians or bankers even though we can all do it. We just use it in out daily lives when we can, or find a calculator when we need it.

That line kind of confuses me when taking into consideration an explanation of lore, even though this is historical nonetheless…

Orrian History Scrolls

My early career as a merchant began in Foible’s Fair, in southern Ascalon. Imaging my shock at my first encounter with the enchanted markets of Wren.

Fishmongers display live catch in watery orbs above their tents. Porters enhance their strength with spells, routinely carrying loads that would cripple a pack bull.

The finest silks ripple in the air, showing their quality: songs play themselves on golden lyres; parents project their voices across the square to the[sic] find the ear of a wayward child.

Yet the real oddity is just how normal all this seems to them. It makes me ponder: How did magic become so common, so everyday?

In Ascalon, we apply magic only to things of import-when ordinary means cannot succeed. For the Orrians, magic is like any other tool, to be used at whim and with little concern.

And then…

The gods, in their wisdom, dispersed their magic throughout Tyria. Magic was dissipated, so that none by be too tempted by its power.

We know that we can draw and contain magic through intense study and the use of certain materials-‘signets’-and also with the blessing of all the Six.

Have the Orrian people simply internalized these lessons? Is the land there so magical that all are born with the ability to use magic without the need for education? My theory will require more research………

What Angel says seems to kind of counteract this…

I highly doubt Zhaitan gives one kitten or another about balancing magic in the world. The Elder Dragons are just @-holes!

I think just because the balance is their natural role doesn’t mean they have to care or even be aware of it. No more than the wolf’s hunger for meat needs to care how the number of caribou will effect it’s natural niche. So the ED’s may well just be driven by their own hunger and be @-holes while still fulfilling the balancing role.

I’d almost be inclined to ignore everything said in this interview.. I wonder what Ree and Jeff have to say about it.

The fee, in case you wondered, is automatically separated from your person and transported directly into a guarded room in Rata Sum. The coins drop in and pile up there, and workers put them in carts and carry them to the vaults.

How deliciously crude. So our money magically vanishes from our person and is dropped in a big room where they use manual labour to ship it to the vault…

She seems like a very cheerful, enthusiastic person, but while reading it I can’t help but feel like most of it was thought up on the spot.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That line kind of confuses me when taking into consideration an explanation of lore, even though this is historical nonetheless…

Orrian History Scrolls

My early career as a merchant began in Foible’s Fair, in southern Ascalon. Imaging my shock at my first encounter with the enchanted markets of Wren.

Fishmongers display live catch in watery orbs above their tents. Porters enhance their strength with spells, routinely carrying loads that would cripple a pack bull.

The finest silks ripple in the air, showing their quality: songs play themselves on golden lyres; parents project their voices across the square to the[sic] find the ear of a wayward child.

Yet the real oddity is just how normal all this seems to them. It makes me ponder: How did magic become so common, so everyday?

In Ascalon, we apply magic only to things of import-when ordinary means cannot succeed. For the Orrians, magic is like any other tool, to be used at whim and with little concern.

And then…

The gods, in their wisdom, dispersed their magic throughout Tyria. Magic was dissipated, so that none by be too tempted by its power.

We know that we can draw and contain magic through intense study and the use of certain materials-‘signets’-and also with the blessing of all the Six.

Have the Orrian people simply internalized these lessons? Is the land there so magical that all are born with the ability to use magic without the need for education? My theory will require more research………

What Angel says seems to kind of counteract this…

Some very good catches Konig. It would seem too many lore writers have too many hands in the pot. That’s the major issue with having many writers discussing one fictional area. Compare Tyria lore to Middle Earth lore and you see the difference. One writer (with exception of his son later on) and a group of writers.

I think I would have it structured as two lead writers who know the entire lore of Tyria very well creating all the major plots, courses of the world. Allow the other writers to do smaller stories that wouldn’t contradict major lore of the world.

It’s a bit confusing since magic users are somewhat of a rarity in the books. The human flagship in SoS only had 8 casters that we were aware of.

Eluveitie.1290:

Very interesting read.

We do know the Elder Dragons aren’t evil. They are forces of nature.

No, they ARE still evil. We had a very long discussion about this. Even if they are forces of nature, they still make conscience decisions, and commit evil acts. Even if they have no intention to be evil, and even if their acts are needed to balance magic in the world, the nature of their acts is still wrong.

What I don’t like about this interview, is how it seems to imply that the Bloodstones are completely irrelevant to magic in Tyria. What the hell?!

Diovid.9506:

I’d almost be inclined to ignore everything said in this interview.. I wonder what Ree and Jeff have to say about it.

Evans.6347:

She seems like a very cheerful, enthusiastic person, but while reading it I can’t help but feel like most of it was thought up on the spot.

Antara.3189:

It would seem too many lore writers have too many hands in the pot. That’s the major issue with having many writers discussing one fictional area.

Agree with all three.

I’d really like some reaffirmation about the points brought up in the interview from the lore continuity folks (Ree and Jeff).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Eluveitie.1290:

Very interesting read.

We do know the Elder Dragons aren’t evil. They are forces of nature.

No, they ARE still evil. We had a very long discussion about this. Even if they are forces of nature, they still make conscience decisions, and commit evil acts. Even if they have no intention to be evil, and even if their acts are needed to balance magic in the world, the nature of their acts is still wrong.

What I don’t like about this interview, is how it seems to imply that the Bloodstones are completely irrelevant to magic in Tyria. What the hell?!

Honestly, no disrespect to her personally, but the bloodstones play a major role in the history of magic in Tyria. Plain and simple. Guild Wars Prophecies/EotN both have direct quests with relations to the Bloodstones. (fragments)

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Eluveitie.1290:

Very interesting read.

We do know the Elder Dragons aren’t evil. They are forces of nature.

No, they ARE still evil. We had a very long discussion about this. Even if they are forces of nature, they still make conscience decisions, and commit evil acts. Even if they have no intention to be evil, and even if their acts are needed to balance magic in the world, the nature of their acts is still wrong.

What I don’t like about this interview, is how it seems to imply that the Bloodstones are completely irrelevant to magic in Tyria. What the hell?!

I agree that, from the point of view of any Tyrian, they are evil. I saw the dicussion, but didn’t seem to be getting anywhere since there were several personal opinions and points of view. We still have a lot to learn about them, specifically their way of thinking, but they are still forces of nature with an specific purpose, which is balance magic in the world. The way they do it may be evil, but they’re not necessarily evil.

That’s my point of view, at least.

Regarding the Bloodstones -I can no longer access the interview- but what I got from that part (as I remember) is that, as a society, Tyrians no longer limit themeselves in that way of thinking. Pretty much as how science evolves, and with new discoveries and knowledge, the way of thinking about certain things evolve… you break paradigms, break limits, open your mind to new things, to change, etc.

But the way that she made it sound like how magic functions seems to be that Abaddon’s actions were utterly pointless. Like they were of no consequence. And in turn, the other five gods’ actions to counter Abaddon’s acts were similarly pointless.

The only way about it would be that non-bloodstone magic became so commonplace so quickly in the past 250 years… but that means that 1,000 years passed where Bloodstone magic was common place, then suddenly it wasn’t. It would have to be that there was already a large amount of magic – humanity just didn’t have access to it for one way or another. That, or something happened in the past 250 or so years to cause the Bloodstones’ magic to effectively and easily be absorbed into the world – or some other reason for the world’s magic to supercede the Bloodstone’s so quickly and drastically.

Still, the way she worded things sounded like GW1’s lore on magic is just “old people’s way of thinking” and of utterly no relevance in the long run. As if GW1’s lore on magic – and hell, even some GW2 lore on magic – just got retconned.

The difference between Tyrian’s magic and science is that science doesn’t change – how we use it does. Tyrian magic does change, according to Angel – it’s ever increasing until the Elder Dragons come and consume it (and then bleed it back out…). While a change of thinking may occur – it shouldn’t have in such a drastic manner, unless it was already capable of using magic without the bloodstones in GW1’s time – but then, as said, Abaddon’s actions seem quite minute in the grand scale of things.

And let’s also not forget that the interview basically tells us that all GW1 PCs and half of the NPCs from EN and on were effectively geniuses in magic given how many secondary professions there were. Unless somehow magic became harder to learn, yet easier to access (which itself is contradictory).

I think part of the problem here is the fact that the interview says alot without being concise on detail which makes it confusing.

It is possible to make most of the things in there work with a bit of headcanon (though generally I dont favor that).

The dragon thing isnt suprising though the fact they she outright states it was. Certainly that was hinted about in game before now. It creates an interesting dilemma for Tyria depending on weither the Dragon’s are just naturally destructive in their culling of the worlds magic, or weither something in Tyria’s past caused the Dragon’s to become as destructive as they are today.

The Bloodstone thing is weird. We can take it one of two ways. Either the growing magic in Tyria makes in unneccesary to rely on the power of the Bloodstones and so they dont have a limiting effect anymore or the Bloodstones never had the effect most people thought and it was a cultural limiting factor on the crossover of magic types. Of course that brings up the question on what spliting the Bloodstones would have acheived in the first place and how the gods really took away/limited magic.

The Calander thing though just seems foolish. Lore shouldnt be retconed so willy nilly.

You know, I’m willing to dismiss this entire interview. As mentioned before, much of it seems like made up at the spot, and the only thing that doesn’t seem so and has relevance (so it can’t be made up at a moment’s notice) is the fact that the dragons balance the amount of magic, which we were pretty much aware of already, and this kind of anticlimactic confirmation just leaves a bad aftertaste.

Now I really want Guru’s multiquote feature…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As to the Abaddon bit: It’s possible that the Elder Dragons stirred a bit. I mean, what’s the earliest mention of Glint after the Elder Dragons went to sleep? Quite some time after the Exodus…

There’s evidence that she was active before… as active as she ever was. Her modus operandi did seem to be laying low most of the time unless she had something she felt she needed to meddle in, so the Flameseeker Prophecies being her first appearance in the timeline doesn’t necessarily mean she was napping with the other dragons.

Incidentally, the idea about the dragon cycles being directly linked to magic does shed some light on what the jotun say about magic being more chaotic in the old days, and also sheds some light on the significance of the seers sealing magic inside the Bloodstone. It also suggests to me that Primordus stirring not long after the Searing, Cataclysm, and so on may not be coincidence – those events may have made the dragons think magic had reached the point where it was time to awaken.

These schools aren’t as important in modern magic as they were even 250 years ago. They have fallen out of style as people have realized that magic doesn’t need these kinds of limiting factors.

Huh…

This is very interesting. This seems to imply that the four schools of magic are not created by the four bloodstones. That the bloodstones’ division of magic in such a manner is merely cultural disbelief.

I think we’ve been moving in this sort of direction for a while. It certainly seems to be clear that the bloodstones are not, and never were, the sole source of magic.

What I think might be happening, though, is that the magic from other sources has increased. It’s possible, in fact, that some of that magic was originally sourced from magic coming from the Bloodstones. So at the time immediately after the Exodus, bloodstone magic represented a pretty major component of all the magic out there, so if you wanted to have real power, you pretty much had to follow the rules of the bloodstones. Now, though, the portion of overall magical power represented by the bloodstones have dropped substantially – they still have their mark (the most powerful spellcasters are still specialists in a school, whether this is because of the remaining influence of the bloodstones or primarily the result of tradition) but there’s enough magic from other sources that allow spellcasters to do more with their area of specialisation and have broader areas of expertise.

Thinking on this, this would also explain a lot of the GW1 professions. We’ve always had trouble picking just where professions such as the dervish, assassin, and ritualist really fit – it’s possible that with the dervish and assassin not reaching for the same degree of magical power as the big four, and with the ritualist tradition having been formed from pre-Abaddon magic to begin with, they didn’t have the dependency on the bloodstones that the big four had, and thus were able to wield effects that look like they’re coming from multiple bloodstones. (And, really, while the whole point of the separation of the bloodstones was to stop one caster from having access to all four, a D/A can have skills that look like they’re coming from each of the four.) Essentially, at 1BE, splitting the bloodstones was a big deal. Now, while its legacy still remains in spellcasting traditions, it’s far less important than it was a thousand or even two hundred and fifty years ago. The Orrian magical aptitude could be because, living in a land where magic is more concentrated than elsewhere, the Orrians reached this point well before other lands… but may not have been able to perform the same arts in other lands as they did at home.

(I am annoyed about retconning the calender, though. On the other hand, though, the real-world calender has been retconned a few times itself – 360 always did seem a little too convenient. Mind you, so does 365…)

Aaron Ansari.1604:

At the end, I think my biggest question is this: if magic can be tapped by practically any person, why is there such a low proportion of spellcasters? Even accounting for the rigors of study and discipline, the fairly even split between martial and magical classes seems odd. Both would take intensive training, but the inherent potential of magic is much larger. Apply that in-game, where most armies are skewed towards martial professions, and it becomes even odder.

This is actually something that’s been hinted at previously – namely, that all of the professions use magic to some extent. When a warrior can slam the ground with a one-handed mace so hard that it sends a shockwave through the ground that knocks people off their feet… with their off hand - is that likely to be physical strength alone?

I think the distinction is, though, one of how much of it people use, and how much people train in it. Since we’ve brought up physical strength – nearly everyone can run a few yards or lift a glass of water, but how many people can run a marathon or lift a truck? Similarly, it’s likely that most Tyrians can draw upon magic to some extent, but few can do so to the level of guardians or scholars.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And let’s also not forget that the interview basically tells us that all GW1 PCs and half of the NPCs from EN and on were effectively geniuses in magic given how many secondary professions there were. Unless somehow magic became harder to learn, yet easier to access (which itself is contradictory).

Actually, I think we got an answer to this in a previous interview.

Basically, during GW1 there was less to learn. Professions in GW2 are broader and deeper than they were in GW1, so the effort it takes to master one profession in GW2 is about the same as it took to master one and most of another in GW1. Also consider how the GW2 professions are that much broader than GW1 professions – a GW2 character probably has about as much versatility as a character with three or more professions could in GW1.

Consider the humble warrior, for instance. The GW2 warrior can swing melee weapons, so they’ve got GW1 warrior down there. They can also fire a bow, which in GW1 would have required a ranger secondary. They have access to effective healing and condition removal… which was generally done by being a W/Mo in the GW1 meta. They can leap short distances, and while lore-wise it’s certainly not the same thing, it means warriors don’t need to dual-profession into assassin to get a gap-closer any more. And you can have all of these in a single build. I could keep going, but I think I’ve made the point – in terms of capability and versatility, a GW2 character with a single profession on paper leaves the dual-professioned GW1 character in the dust.

Another element in play here is something that’s been observed in Earth’s scientific development. In the 1700s, it was possible for one person to know pretty much all there was to know about science and make major new discoveries… as a hobby, while doing something else as their day job. Nowadays, most researchers know basically enough in other disciplines to get by and have spent years on their specialisation before they start pushing back the boundaries of knowledge in any but the most trivial ways. While polymaths do exist, they rarely win Nobel Prizes. So, basically, it’s not that our GW1 characters are smarter than our GW2 characters – if anything it’s the other way around, it’s just that any given profession represents just that much more of a body of knowledge than the GW1 professions.

You can almost call it the evolution of the human (or Norn, Sylvari, etc.) being in the use of magic.

The problem I have with all this is, in GW1 it is pretty clearly established that the Gods removed all magic from Tyria, and then split the Bloodstones.

In the year 1 BE, Abaddon gave the ability to use Magic to the sentient races of Tyria. However, this gift was given too freely, resulting in immediate and bloody wars. The leader of the human kingdoms in Tyria at the time, King Doric, traveled to Arah to seek audience with the gods and begged at their feet for their compassion and to take back their gift of magic. The gods heard his plea and created the bloodstone, which limited the use of magic that the races could use, and then split it into five portions that represent the four schools of magic and a keystone to forever seal away the full power of magic and the mistake that was made by giving too much power to mortals. After the creation of the bloodstones, the gods plunged the giant stones into the largest volcano of the Ring of Fire Island Chain. Soon after, they left the world in the act known as The Exodus.

But what the interview implies, is that basically we could use magic whether the Gods removed it or not. Since magic is also possible without the bloodstones. Now we know that there was magic use before the bloodstones. But Prophecies is pretty clear on the source of human magic. You can’t just redcon all of Guild Wars 1 in one breath. Because that’s basically what such a statement is. It also diminishes the power of the human Gods, making them seem pretty insignificant.

One possibility that occured to me was that Abaddon used the Bloodstone to unleash magic upon Tyria and spliting the Bloodstones was how the Gods limited its flow thus reducing the magic in the world. After all we have never been clearly told exactly how the Gods limited the flow of magic or really how Abaddon started handing out magic like candy in the first place.

One thing we have seen in GW2 (which has been done very well I personally think) is that many of the things people believed as fact in GW1 turned out to not be the whole truth when investigated in more detail. The Bloodstone and the Seers are a perfect example.

In regards to GW1 lore, if you really look at things unless they were presented as speculative (e.g., An Empire Divided’s statement of Luxons in the Crystal Sea), the only source that’s been proven wrong has been the History of Tyria (aka Thaddeus Lamount’s work).

Up until this interview, Abaddon’s actions remained important with with GW2’s alterations of the History of Tyria’s “facts,” and in previous interviews it had remained a case where “magic in the world was extremely rare or non-existent until Abaddon’s actions” with the addendum of “with the exception of prior to the previous Elder Dragon rise.” But this interview seems to be basically saying that’s not the case – in that the Five Gods’ actions to reduce magic was irrelevant anyways, since its effects didn’t even really last all that long (unless the rate of magical growth in the world is ever increasing rather than a steady rate of increase – making a curve on a graph rather than a straight diagonal line).

always think it’s best to not take anything as canon until it’s in-game (or in a complementary lore piece, like the short stories and novels), because quite honestly, every time i read a lore interview, my thoughts are “they’re just making this up on the go and trying to sell it as a master plan they had all along”. during the interview, they don’t have their whole database of information, their timelines and flowcharts and stuff. they have to go from memory and hope they didn’t forget any fact, and then the lore fans latch onto whatever was said as new canon, and suddenly they have to remember what the hell they mentioned during that interview too, or they’ll be accused of retconning something that was technically never official lore.

but regardless of all that, the interview seems to have been taken down…

Actually, from my knowledge of working indirectly with interviews, at least during some interviews they do have the database in front of them – or they get the questions before hand so that they can review the subject.

But that’s why Anet has a tendency to speak in non-absolutes. Because they could misremember or even change their mind later on.

It occured to me that the lack of non-absolutes in this interview could have been because it was for a french audiance and would have probably had to undergo translation for most of the player base it was for. Subtlities are easily lost in translations.

As for the change… I think it lore wise there is a work around. Hell, for all we know perhaps the Bloodstone wasnt just a way to store magic but was an attempt by them to create an ‘artifical dragon’ or something that consumed excess magic. After all, if magic was permentently regulated, the EDs would never wake.

If that was the case it could be imagined that the gods or even Abaddon along could have done something to mess with it. It would make alot of sense if Abaddon had done something to release the power of the Bloodstone to grant magic to the mortal races. It would explain where the magic they gave to the mortal races came from. Potentially before that the Bloodstone could have been keeping magic regulated.

Of course the problem with all this is it is speculation to try and make sense of the interview. While it could fit, it would be easier if she had either been less absolute in her claims or had clarified certain details that the lack of has left wholes in the current known lore.

Lutinz.6915:

As for the change… I think it lore wise there is a work around. Hell, for all we know perhaps the Bloodstone wasnt just a way to store magic but was an attempt by them to create an ‘artifical dragon’ or something that consumed excess magic. After all, if magic was permentently regulated, the EDs would never wake.

I think something like that was pretty much what the Seers had in mind, yeah.

The overall impression I get is that the Seers made the original bloodstone to suck up all of the magic in the world beyond a certain, low, ambience level. The ‘gift of magic’ basically set it from suck to blow – when that proved to be too much, the division of the bloodstones limited mortal spellcasters to the four schools. Back then, pretty much all of the world’s magic was in the bloodstones, so this was effective.

However, the Bloodstones were still blowing, and the magic that was no longer contained within the bloodstones started settling into Tyria itself, raising the ambient level of magic independant of the bloodstones. So, basically, as the centuries have passed the bloodstones have grown less and less relevant, as the level of magic that has already leaked out of the bloodstones and thus is independent of the restrictions of the bloodstones increases.

In Guild Wars 1, we see this in that lower-end magic users such as dervishes, paragons, assassins and rangers can wield powers from a variety of sources, while the big four spellcasting professions remained specialised. Now, the bloodstones are still having enough of an influence that each school of magic still retains its own flavour, but its practitioners can do things with it that weren’t possible in GW1’s time. Elementalists are a good example here – GW1 elementalists had very little healing and could generally only keep themselves topped up (and less reliably than a GW2 ele can) while the GW2 ele is, at least on paper, as effective a party healer as any other profession and better than some. The elementalist flavour comes from the healing being carried on the medium of healing water rather than the light that was associated with monk healing, but the source is possibly a marriage of elemental magic from the bloodstone with healing magic from ambient sources.

Extrapolating backwards, this has interesting ramifications for magic immediately after the Exodus, especially when you consider that the names indicate a greater degree of specialisation than even GW1 professions. Maybe the elementalists of the time really could do nothing but destroy, mesmers could only deny other spellcasters, and so on.

In other words, we’re continuing the grand tradition of GW1

The more stuff the kill, the more things we kitten up!

I’m ok with this

This is slightly off topic and completely speculative but It occured to me that Glint’s children may have actually been an attempt by Glint to seed a ‘replacement’ group of dragons without the same corrupt nature to fill the hole that killing the EDs would create. Having benign dragons supping on magic power seems like the best solution that the current races of Tyria can hope for in this situation.

Alternatively it could be that their are already benign EDs out there. If the EDs we know currently were all ‘unbalanced’ by some ancient event, it’s not beyond possibility that other dragons could have been uneffected by such an event. Further, considering what we know of out current EDs, it wouldnt be suprising to say the least for such an ED to remain unevolved over the killing the other EDs do as long has they didnt impact on it. After all the EDs in general dont really see the mortal races as much more than animals.

Dragon doesn’t equate elder dragon. I find it extremely unlikely that Glint’s offspring would have been capable of administrating the amount of magic in Tyria. Then again, the seers did do that quite successfully in the past…

My wonder – should the interview be taken at face value – is whether magic is naturally returning, or if it’s only doing so because the Elder Dragons are sleeping – as she says that the Elder Dragons release magic back into the world as they hibernate.

This would mean that if the latter, killing the Elder Dragons results in magic becoming stable – the amount not changing unless using magic reduces it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem I have with all this is, in GW1 it is pretty clearly established that the Gods removed all magic from Tyria, and then split the Bloodstones.

In the year 1 BE, Abaddon gave the ability to use Magic to the sentient races of Tyria. However, this gift was given too freely, resulting in immediate and bloody wars. The leader of the human kingdoms in Tyria at the time, King Doric, traveled to Arah to seek audience with the gods and begged at their feet for their compassion and to take back their gift of magic. The gods heard his plea and created the bloodstone, which limited the use of magic that the races could use, and then split it into five portions that represent the four schools of magic and a keystone to forever seal away the full power of magic and the mistake that was made by giving too much power to mortals. After the creation of the bloodstones, the gods plunged the giant stones into the largest volcano of the Ring of Fire Island Chain. Soon after, they left the world in the act known as The Exodus.

But what the interview implies, is that basically we could use magic whether the Gods removed it or not. Since magic is also possible without the bloodstones. Now we know that there was magic use before the bloodstones. But Prophecies is pretty clear on the source of human magic. You can’t just redcon all of Guild Wars 1 in one breath. Because that’s basically what such a statement is. It also diminishes the power of the human Gods, making them seem pretty insignificant.

Well…you’re right, but…

…it doesn’t really matter at this point Malafide. GW2 was produced with an entirely different agenda in mind than GW1. Much larger and broader customer appeal(the single most important change) meant an overall decrease in challenging content, an increase in game-play accessibility and cosmetics, a decrease(or in this case elimination) of any factional conflict of import…basically anything which contributes to an all-inclusive, highly player-friendly environment in which things like griefing, ganking, price-gauging, etc., are all kept to a minimum.

They did this specifically to counter the current(at the time) trend of most MMO’s in which player interaction often involved conflicting goals and actions. You can see this in many of GW2’s characteristics: no node-camping, no dueling, no open-world combat, gold sinks, etc. They wanted to make a game that would bring in as many different demographics as possible. This meant both new races to play to give customers more flavor options, as well as having those races get along with each other at all times.

As such, the human gods simply could not exist in the way they had in the past, it would be counter to everything they created with this game if they had only one race with overwhelming access to divine favor. They had to quietly write them out of importance. So the Bloodstone thing(along with others) was altered slightly to take that responsibility away from the gods and put it within Tyria itself. That, along with the addition of science-tech to the the GW universe, put every race on equal footing.

The Dragons are simply another way for GW2 to present us with a pseudo-evil antagonist archetype that everyone can agree on. Are they evil? Who knows(or cares). They are mostly just there for the players to point at as the enemy. That they consume magic makes total sense from a marketing standpoint. What better way to make some gods GTFO than introducing a being that literally eats them for breakfast.

ANet did a decent job trying to reconcile modern Tyria with it’s GW1 roots, I’ll give them that. But if you step back and look at the overall picture, there’s just too many things different about it to warrant legitimacy and continuity.

In short, they don’t really care for GW1 lore to a reasonable extent. Sucks…but it’s true. :/

Konig Des Todes.2086:

My wonder – should the interview be taken at face value – is whether magic is naturally returning, or if it’s only doing so because the Elder Dragons are sleeping – as she says that the Elder Dragons release magic back into the world as they hibernate.

This would mean that if the latter, killing the Elder Dragons results in magic becoming stable – the amount not changing unless using magic reduces it.

we already knew dragons oozed magic in their sleep back in EotN, it’s the reason the asura gate system was built so close to primordus (before they found out that it wasn’t just a statue).

let’s see what we know:

• magic is finite, like water.
• magic is seeped by the dragons while awakened
• magic is oozed by the dragons when they hybernate
• tyria has its own natural magic, beyond the bloodstones and the gods’ gift

what we don’t know is if magic spontaneously generates with time, and the dragons consume more than they release, thus keeping it balanced, or if it’s an ideal alchemical reaction, with no loss of energy in the process (akin to passing water back and forth from one glass to another), which would make the dragons irrelevant to the equation (water being magic, tyria being one glass, and the dragons another) and thus killable without side effects.

Technically, Bruno, we only knew Primordus seeped magic in its sleep. The other ED were unclear on this matter.

On your fourth point – technically, magic from the gods’ gift is the magic of the bloodstone which in turn was originally natural magic.

But what you ended with… is exactly what I said. Just in different words.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

GG Anet, kittening up the lore for non-lore reasons.

That’s been my point all along Konig. :/

Except that your claims usually revolve around GW2 in general… except that GW2 in general hasn’t messed up GW1’s lore. It’s the developer’s ideal for the living story’s presentation that does.

There is, in fact, a theory that Cantha is or has been influenced by a benign Elder Dragon.

Obsidian.1328:

As such, the human gods simply could not exist in the way they had in the past, it would be counter to everything they created with this game if they had only one race with overwhelming access to divine favor. They had to quietly write them out of importance. So the Bloodstone thing(along with others) was altered slightly to take that responsibility away from the gods and put it within Tyria itself. That, along with the addition of science-tech to the the GW universe, put every race on equal footing.

Except it doesn’t. Asura and charr are clearly dominating at the moment, while the gods and to a lesser extent the Spirits of the Wild are doing nothing to counterbalance this. They did need to be reduced in importance, yes, but considering that we’ve gone to Arah itself and the human relationship with the gods has been pretty much irrelevant even there… I think they’ve grossly overcompensated.

Well, they have grossly overcompensated because of the fact that they know which race holds the love of a vast majority of players, humanity. What they didn’t seem to realize is that by making the race into the underdog of all races does more to give them more fans than it does to make the others look better. Everyone wants to root for an underdog.

I want to know how serious we should take the things said in that interview, because quite some things, as others have mentioned, go against the lore presented to us in the original Guild Wars.

It would be nice to see a reaction from Ree or Jeff.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, Bruno, we only knew Primordus seeped magic in its sleep. The other ED were unclear on this matter.

On your fourth point – technically, magic from the gods’ gift is the magic of the bloodstone which in turn was originally natural magic.

But what you ended with… is exactly what I said. Just in different words.

never said they were different things, just trying to lay things out as clear as possible.

Narcemus.1348:

Well, they have grossly overcompensated because of the fact that they know which race holds the love of a vast majority of players, humanity. What they didn’t seem to realize is that by making the race into the underdog of all races does more to give them more fans than it does to make the others look better. Everyone wants to root for an underdog.

well to be fair, underdog humans are more interesting than “they’re everywhere! ” humans.

draxynnic.3719:

Lutinz.6915:

As for the change… I think it lore wise there is a work around. Hell, for all we know perhaps the Bloodstone wasnt just a way to store magic but was an attempt by them to create an ‘artifical dragon’ or something that consumed excess magic. After all, if magic was permentently regulated, the EDs would never wake.

I think something like that was pretty much what the Seers had in mind, yeah.

The overall impression I get is that the Seers made the original bloodstone to suck up all of the magic in the world beyond a certain, low, ambience level. The ‘gift of magic’ basically set it from suck to blow – when that proved to be too much, the division of the bloodstones limited mortal spellcasters to the four schools. Back then, pretty much all of the world’s magic was in the bloodstones, so this was effective.

However, the Bloodstones were still blowing, and the magic that was no longer contained within the bloodstones started settling into Tyria itself, raising the ambient level of magic independant of the bloodstones. So, basically, as the centuries have passed the bloodstones have grown less and less relevant, as the level of magic that has already leaked out of the bloodstones and thus is independent of the restrictions of the bloodstones increases.

Well that’s pretty neat. My theory of a few years back wasn’t too off base it seems. Now if only we could pin down if the magic is interrelated as the basic medium of the Mists (or vice versa, the Mists are the basic medium of magic), and that as worlds form in the Mists, they encapsulate it and the magic seeps out to help generate life and then is a natural part of them, I’ll be set.

A few revisions to fit with whatever turns out to be the case, and it’ll remain stable.

About the interview though…Yeah…This is part of the reason I’ve been less and less involved with this game as well as its lore.