Guild Wars 2

the dragons are like a magical circuit breaker. too much magical power goes through the ley-lines of tyria and the dragons wake up and have to fix everything.

Which brings me to a thought, what happens when the balance of magic is incapable of being checked by the dragons?

LeDuc.1436:

the dragons are like a magical circuit breaker. too much magical power goes through the ley-lines of tyria and the dragons wake up and have to fix everything.

Which brings me to a thought, what happens when the balance of magic is incapable of being checked by the dragons?

My thoughts always were that it makes Tyria a bit like the Mists. Assuming they haven’t tweaked the lore too much, that would mean a significant potential for the influx of and/or formation of demons to ravage the lands.

LeDuc.1436:

the dragons are like a magical circuit breaker. too much magical power goes through the ley-lines of tyria and the dragons wake up and have to fix everything.

Which brings me to a thought, what happens when the balance of magic is incapable of being checked by the dragons?

but what if the circuit breakers are, at the same time, the power supply? they’d be unstabilizing the very thing they balance, in this self-justified cycle of existence. “magic is unstable because the dragons exist, so the dragons awake to consume magic to stabilize it, and over time they re-destabilize it simply by existing, which forces their awakening and so on”.

That interview was awesome to read. Answered a lot of the questions we just didn’t bother asking before.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And let’s also not forget that the interview basically tells us that all GW1 PCs and half of the NPCs from EN and on were effectively geniuses in magic given how many secondary professions there were. Unless somehow magic became harder to learn, yet easier to access (which itself is contradictory).

Well, IMO, this actually has some sense to it. Before the dragons awoke, people were more powerfull, as there was more magic flowing. They could master more than one discipline, because of all the extra juice. Now, when magic is weaker, perhaps mastering more than one arcane is not possible. That would mean, that it’s not necessarily harder to learn, but that the individuals simply can’t achieve power levels from 250 years ago. I agree however that it kinda looks like a theory made in hurry to explain some game design changes.

Why introduce “diminished” magic into Tyria in the first place? What was their intention with this?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that your claims usually revolve around GW2 in general… except that GW2 in general hasn’t messed up GW1’s lore. It’s the developer’s ideal for the living story’s presentation that does.

Umm…yes it has Konig.

But we’ll never agree on that methinks. Probably because you think simply making sure all your ducks are in a row is all you need to do for that. The heart and soul of a story is just as important as the facts and figures when it comes to continuity.

draxynnic.3719:

There is, in fact, a theory that Cantha is or has been influenced by a benign Elder Dragon.

Obsidian.1328:

As such, the human gods simply could not exist in the way they had in the past, it would be counter to everything they created with this game if they had only one race with overwhelming access to divine favor. They had to quietly write them out of importance. So the Bloodstone thing(along with others) was altered slightly to take that responsibility away from the gods and put it within Tyria itself. That, along with the addition of science-tech to the the GW universe, put every race on equal footing.

Except it doesn’t. Asura and charr are clearly dominating at the moment, while the gods and to a lesser extent the Spirits of the Wild are doing nothing to counterbalance this. They did need to be reduced in importance, yes, but considering that we’ve gone to Arah itself and the human relationship with the gods has been pretty much irrelevant even there… I think they’ve grossly overcompensated.

From an aesthetic point of view, the humans and Norns are basically interchangable. So some of the affinity for humans that GW1 players have would bleed into the Norn race. I see thousands of female Norns everywhere.

The Sylvari had no precedent, so their popularity was up in the air.

Both the Charr and Asura had a history, especially the former. It makes sense for ANet to try and promote them by giving them a bigger spotlight. Although racial preference charts show humans still way in the lead, so perhaps they didn’t go far enough? /shrugs

Even without all that, every race has the same basic set-up. Every race’s home cities are the same size(vertically if not horizontally). Every race has their very own personal antagonist. Every race has their own single story hero(PS not LS). Every race contributes to the Orders in fair amounts.

For the most part, they are all 5 equal spokes of the same anti-dragon wheel, magitech and steampunk aside…

Going to post this in five full posts.

I don’t even know where to start. There’re so many shocking contradictions in those answers that I’m beyond dismayed. If all that she’s said was true and not just made up on the spot to hide the fact she wasn’t prepared to give precise answers, then we’re witnessing the total slaughter of established lore.

Starting with one of the few points that’re not lore-wrecking:

Angel McCoy

Magic is the lifeblood of Tyria. The entire world is infused with it, and it flows through everything via ley lines that criss-cross the planet.
The natural role of the dragons is to keep this magic balanced. From time to time, in the long history of the world, the dragons have awoken and begun to draw the world’s magic into themselves, reducing the level of magic flowing through the ley lines.

When the dragons have consumed enough and thus reduced the world to a low level of magic, they go back to sleep. From then on, the magic leaks from them, back into the world at a reasonable rate. Eventually, it builds up in the world again, and the dragons awaken again to tip the teeter-totter back in the other direction.

I find it really hard to believe the Elder Dragons are the concerned good guys “wanting” to protect Tyria from exploding in a chain-reaction of magical implosion. Dragons, and not just Elder Dragons, absorb magic like sponges – we know that from the Zephyrites who’ve studied Glint’s corpse. While it is more than probable dragonkind actually do keep the level of magic in check, the Elder Dragons are doing what they’re doing out of completely selfish, depraved reasons. It’s like they’ve forgotten they can’t keep the magic they consume in themselves and deny their very nature by trying to feast on all magic in the world. It actually coincides with the overarching theory I’m brewing about the Elder Dragons: they’ve been either corrupted by an unknown force or turned evil/corrupt by themselves, abandoning their purpose and beginning their cycles of (futile) consumption and destruction. Had they not enslaved or murdered a large portion of lesser dragons at the dawn of their cycles, magic would’ve been kept at a steady level for eons to come.

(However, if the reason for the Elder Dragons’ existence is as simple as McCoy makes it sound, ANet will fall into the same trap BioWare made at the end of the Mass Effect trilogy: it’s okay the Reapers (Elder Dragons) are keeping balance in the universe (Tyria) by wiping out/“ascending” organic civilizations (feasting on all magic), but why make them so revoltingly insidious, twisted, and cruel? (Reapers turning people into cybernetic zombies, bombarding heavily populated residential – and not military – zones, dragons corrupting everyone into horrible monstrosities – in Zhaitan’s and Jormag’s case even giving them deranged and evil behavior – and slaughtering innocents and magically insignificant people.) You can be doing the universe/world a favor by doing what must be done, yes, but it doesn’t require perversion and psychopathic torture and murder. Really, really hope the Elder Dragons won’t turn out to be the “good” Reapers saving us all from magic going nuclear fallout on us, but instead corrupted “oathbreakers” of sorts pursuing their own perverted goals… just as EoD, SoS, and most of Guild Wars 2 have shown that.)

And now the problematic parts:

Angel McCoy

The citizens of Tyria have ready access to this flow of magic from a very young age.
——
All creatures in Tyria have a natural ability to access and use magic. It is EXTREMELY rare that a person is born who does not have access to magic, and current theory implies this happens only when magic is akittens lowest point in the world—after the dragons have been awake and consuming it for some time.

A reread of An Empire Divided, the Ecology of the Charr, and most of the lore on the re-release of magic in Guild Wars 1 (and some parts of Guild Wars 2) would be necessary.

The Ritualist: Spiritual Tradition – More than a thousand years ago, it is said, the gods of Tyria left this world behind—but not before granting the power of magic to the humans who lived there. Although Cantha was settled by humans hundreds of years before the northern continent, Canthan humans did not possess magical power as we currently understand it. Indeed, true magic seems to have appeared in Cantha at the same time it emerged in Tyria. Before this time, however, the Ritualist tradition was already long established.

According to historians, these early Ritualists from the pre-magic era relied on a similar power granted by the dead—by ancestors of the great and powerful who maintained a connection to their descendents. The power of Spirit allowed mortal humans to practice what might be seen as a form of magic. These human Ritualists adapted to true magic when the gods introduced it, but still rely on the Spirits of the dead to put these skills into practice. Unfortunately for scholars such as myself, the skills of the true Ritualist are no longer to be seen; but those that evolved from the merging of magic and Spirit certainly are widespread.
——
509 CC (1 BE):The gods of Tyria are known to have walked the land relatively recently, and not just on the northern continent. The same gods also visited Cantha, and were worshipped there alongside the spirits of Cantha’s ancestors. But it was not until the Canthan year 509 that the gods granted humans—to the north, south, and parts beyond—the gift of true magic. Before this spectacular event, what Canthans called “magic” was actually power granted by their ancestor Spirits, a practice which continues to this day with the Ritualists. The gift of magic altered the practices of Ritualists very little; if anything it only made their abilities more powerful than before.

Everyday Magic in Orr and Signets:

“The gods, in their wisdom, dispersed their magic throughout Tyria. Magic was dissipated, so that none by be too tempted by its power.”

“We know that we can draw and contain magic through intense study and the use of certain materials – ‘signets’ – and also with the blessing of all the Six.”

“Have the Orrian people simply internalized these lessons? Is the land there so magical that all are born with the ability to use magic without the need for education? My theory will require more reserach.”

The Ecology of the Charr: The humans worshiped and revered these gods, and in return were given magic the likes of which the Charr had never before.
——
Yet when the Charr saw the humans worshiping gods–*and receiving power from them*–they blamed this power for the humans’ victory. Only with such powers on their side could the humans have ever defeated the Charr.
——
One by one, the legions of the Charr fell beneath the control of these “gods” and their Shamans, and the Charr at last learned new magic; a new means of destroying their human enemies south of the Wall.

Story goes that when the gods first gave magic to humans…

- Captain Scott (Guy outside the Gates of Arah)

I didn’t feel like going through and linking in all the lore on the bloodstones and magic (those will reoccur at a later point, however), although these sources are more than ample to show the enormous contradictions appearing in that answer.

Not everyone is born with magical aptitude on Tyria. In the case of the Orrians, who bathed in and drank from a hotspot of the world’s magic (the Source of Orr), it was entirely “natural,” yes. But the vast majority of the world – up until the sundering of the Bloodstone in 1 BE – did and could not wield magic. Before the Exodus, the only humans with magic were those blessed by the gods themselves or ritualists learning a primitive form of magic from the spirits of the dead. The charr definitely had no magic – or very little, and those born with magical talent being the oddities and not the other way around. Downplaying, no, invalidating the role of the bloodstones in the redistribution of magic is a very silly notion.

And that connects into contradictions about the bloodstones’ lore:

Angel McCoy

These schools aren’t as important in modern magic as they were even 250 years ago. They have fallen out of style as people have realized that magic doesn’t need these kinds of limiting factors. Only the most ancient magic users, those who based their magical constructs on this dogma, continue to pursue their knowledge in this way. Thus, you’re only likely to find reference to them in the back-most shelves at the Durmand Priory and in jokes made by young people about old people.

So young people look down the old who were far more powerful than any of them will ever be, for the old schoolers based “their magical constructs on the dogma of the bloodstones.” Well, the predecessors of these so-called “fossils” were responsible for an apocalyptic war between humans and other races that nearly resulted in the destruction of the human race:

The History of Tyria, Volume I: It was to be a gift to all the intelligent creatures—meant to ease a life of toil and make survival a less arduous task. When they had finished creating their gift, they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land.

Wars broke out immediately as the magical races fought for dominance. So much destruction was wrought that humans found themselves at the edge of extinction.

These wars broke out when Abaddon bestowed a unique gift of magic to certain races, after he and his kin had empowered the Bloodstone with Zhaitan’s energies. Back before the sundering and the limiting of magical practices, mortals could wield all four aspects of magic, and at incredible levels. However, after the four bloodstones, each holding a different school, and the keystone had been created, mortals could only harness two schools at best:

Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction, aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the world, but the devastating power of all four types together would never again be at the command of one single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest.

And the effects of the bloodstones on the world did not end there:

As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted, spitting out the five stones and scattering them across Tyria. The magic they embodied seeped out into the lands around them. Though the Bloodstones, as they are called, have never been reunited, the power that they possess was enough to re-ignite the desire for power in the hearts of men.

Today we know that it was the seers and not the gods who created the original Bloodstone, with the specific purpose to lock away all the uncorrupted, free magic of the world from the Elder Dragons during their last rise. The effects of such a drastic move showed for millennia to come: a world where magic was scarce, slowly regenerating, with the rest concentrated in dragons and the Bloodstone. Later on, the gods and humanity arrived, presumably from a world where magic was also very rare. Humans blessed with the power of the gods or communing with spirits were the only to master this strange phenomenon, yet it still made their conquest of the world laughably easy, since aside from the remnants of the elder races no other species had access to such powers. Another jump in centuries: the gods tampered with Bloodstone, effectively strengthening the impossibly huge amounts stored in there with Zhaitan’s energies. Then Abaddon found a way to release the Bloodstone’s contents back into the world, and went on to present this gift to the oppressed species as well for unknown reasons. Wars ensued, threatening the existence of humanity beleagured by enemies from both inside and outside. King Doric pleaded the gods to end this insanity, so the Five sundered the Bloodstone to five pieces, resealed the shards with Doric’s blood, and enacted another safety mechanism (the keystone) to make the reuniting all the harder. But in the time the Bloodstone was boosted and unlocked, it spilled magic back into the world unchecked. <- The very reason why magic became so pervasive and strong for the next 1,326 years. Without the Bloodstone and the tampering with it, the Guild Wars (the actual events) and the events of Guild Wars 1 (the three campaigns and their prelude) never would’ve occured. There would’ve been far too little magic to bring about the tragedies, cataclysms, unparalleled feats, etc. that shaped the world into what it is now.

So once more: this outrageous disregard for the Bloodstone’s role and its “dogma” that changed Tyria forevermore is incredibly detrimental to lore.

Angel McCoy

I love that idea, as do many people living in Tyria. The reality, however, is that only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering. Few have the time to do this, and usually, an individual doesn’t want to turn her back on everything she’s already learned to start a new magical discipline. She’d much rather continue advancing her knowledge in the discipline she’s invested decades in. Some, however, may dabble and experiment with specific spells. If a master elementalist can find a mesmer to teach her to produce an illusion, then she may explore ways to combine them. Most professions keep their secrets close to their chests though. And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real.

The previous point about the bloodstones and the blatant disrespect with those who’ve founded their magical theory on that so-called “dogma” ties in heavily to this. Because it entirely handwaves away that 250 years ago many, many people were capable of mastering techniques related to at least two schools of magic. Does that mean they were more advanced than the spellcasters of the present? I don’t think so. But instead of forgetting the universal fact that everyone is being limited by the schools of magic, magicians worked, experimented with, and combined the techniques and secrets of multiple professions into one. It seems McCoy has overlooked the fact that many professions melded the theories of other professions into themselves, improving their ways or outright creating new professions. The magical professions of today are in no way unaffected by the schools of magic, however. Let’s take a look:

The most obvious example is the Guardian: Preservation and Denial (of harm), with the profession combining Monk magic, Elonian protection magic (Paragon), and some “Ritualist hoo-haa.” That’s three professions in one, which immediately discredits her answer.

Elementalist: It was outright stated on the official site pre-release (unfortunately all the race and profession pages got severely dumbed down) that they use the Destruction school.

Mesmer and Thief: Denial, with Thief being another meld of professions (assassin and mesmer, prominently).

Necromancer: Aggression. Alas, we know very little of this school aside from the Necromancer being the last magical profession to be tied to it. Still, the necromancers are shown to have incorporated more ritualist magic in their ways.

Instead of people being unable to acquire secondary professions anymore, they either permanently built some favored aspects into their own techniques or realized that their secondary profession will be still weaker compared to their primary (obviously), so they chose not to waste their studies (and attribute points) on trying to get a mediocre grasp of that secondary. In other words, today’s magicians have neither degenerated nor risen above the concept of the four schools, but simplified the system for their own benefit – and probably to avoid unfortunate accidents, which I concur to be quite possible when mixing different schools (aggression – preservation, for example) and/or energies (chaos – darkness).

Angel McCoy

Humans and norn learn their first spells in the home, under the tutelage of their parents. Charr learn in the fahrar, and sylvari awaken with some knowledge and learn the rest via experience. It’s not uncommon for a toddler to begin showing signs of magical talent by creating illusions to entertain herself, putting up a crude barrier between itself and something threatening it, or producing water when thirsty. The early manifestation of magical abilities appears to be a survival mechanism.

A minor thing, but it still sounds very retconish. Even though magic is much more widspread now than it was before the Exodus, it’s unlikely everyone is born with a natural talent for magic. A large percent of Divinity’s Reach’s populace shows absolutely no sign of having magic. The same can be said of Hoelbrak and the Black (possibly the Blood and Ash) Citadel, too. Lion’s Arch, the many Krytan villages, havens, norn steads, charr towns also supports this trend. The Seraph is full of ordinary people who never use magic, even when their survival mechanisms should kick in. The main body of the High Legion’s army is also troops with guns and tanks and steel. Dougal Keane, Riona, Cobiah Marriner, Captain Isaye, Sykox, Ember Doomforge, etc., and a vast number of GW1 and 2 NPCs have shown NO magical aptitude, either.

Angel McCoy

The connection between the Mouvelian calendar and our real-world calendar is a practical one. Thanks to your question, we had a big discussion here. The Mouvelian calendar was established way back when Guild Wars was first being created. At that time, we had no idea we’d ever be doing Living World content like we are now. We’ve decided that we’re going to change the Mouvelian calendar to a 365-day year. Here’s the official in-game asuran announcement:

This recton and attitude is terribly worrying. Even if any lore-loving people would accept this… is it even necessary? There is absolutely no need for that 5 days. Fortunately, you’ve never given an in-game pacing for this LS, and I suggest not doing that in the future (it’d be unbelievably ridiculous if all this stuff happened exactly two weeks from one another…). Just say how much time has passed between this event and that event.

What’s more, due to RL national holidays and weekends, it makes no bloody sense to align the two (that 5-day-gap will have disappeared by the middle of our January). So no, please don’t go there.

Tyria takes a full circle around its sun every 360 days, as it has been the case since the beginning, and it should be the case forever. Canthan, Orrian, Elonian and Ascalonian scholars have studied the skies far longer than any bookah asura – hell, they spent at least the last two millennia underground. If those experts who have lived under the night sky for as long as humanity had lived on this world say there’re 360 days in a year with each season being 90 days long, then everyone should better believe them, and not some unqualified krewe who must’ve miscalibrated one of their oh-so-expensive and “complex” devices.

I’m not buying this… just like I’m not buying that this “loreslaughter” would be real.

what if the Gods refering ot removeing the magic from the land was them removeing the access magic at first aka abbadon sent in a surpluss of magic and the Gods are from a multi verse or somthing. and th surplus of magic was enough to stir and wake the dragons. or they knew of the dragons whoel time and why they took magic back. cause it knew it would wake them as a failsafe.

For taking the time of providing many of the sources I was thinking of after I saw how little sense that interview was, and proving that I’m just too kitten ed lazy to, I present Thalador with this gif:

(P.S., I fully agree with everything I bothered to read of his posts; I suggest Angel do a recap on the game’s lore, otherwise I may have to hop on Obsidian’s bandwagon after vandalizing it to be “separate lore continuities between Guild Wars 2 and Living Story”)

^Definite props Thal!

Another great example of new writers totally ruining what old writers built up.

Gandarel.5091:

Another great example of new writers totally ruining what old writers built up.

She is not really new though.
She joined back in 2007 which was the time around Eye of the Norths release and before the chapters of Beyond.

Orr:

We heard that a link exists between the ancient times’ four schools of magic (Preservation, Destruction, Denial, and Aggression) and the classes of the game.

Angel McCoy:

They have fallen out of style as people have realized that magic doesn’t need these kinds of limiting factors.

Wait wait wait, what the kitten? Of course it doesn’t bloody need these kind of limiting factors, it’s subject to them because of what Human Gods did to the Bloodstone.

Or have we just withnessed a retcon of some pretty central lore?

Either way that interview explains a lot; not much about the lore/story, but a lot none-the-less.

Angel McCoy:

ley lines

Really?!?! (look I know they are based in reality, but they are geographic features, not mystical ones). Next thing in GW2: Frostmourne, Conan, and Mickey Mouse.

Mikk:

“Friends and fellows. Due to recent (amazing!) reasoning by scholars of the Astronomagical Society, we are pleased to announce that we have added the five hidden days to our calendar year! That’s five extra days we’ve recognized for you to advance your work before the annual review. Gifts and gratitude are unnecessary. We merely acknowledged them officially; we did not create them. May all your projects be almost as successful as ours.”

Well that’s going to be a problem. If we are at ~ 1325AE it means that we are missing 6625 days; or 18 New Mouvelian Years, which means in order to correct that the need to announce that years 1307AE – 1325AE technically do no exist (which I am sure someone as smart as an Asuran would realise, because us lowly humans certainly did ). If you willy-nilly announce a calendar change in the middle of a year things get rather nasty. Also according to the wiki the seasons still only have 90 days each (summing up to 360), Mikk fails to explain how the new seasons would work (not that all that much is done according to the seasons in GW2). Are the extra 5 days going to be a new season all it’s own? (Which would actually be pretty cool as a festive season around our Christmas, from a practical point of view)

For the uneducated: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone

and maybe all folks here don’t understand well what exacly magic is?
somebody have listed npc’s with “no” magical abilities.
I didn’t read all the books but for these I’ve read I will proof magical abilities – but only when we will look on magic as “a spellcasting thing”
Dougal Keane,
he was quite good with the traps – this brings the part when McCoy told about guardian and thiefs magic.
Riona,
maybe her “gift” evaluated aroud fighting – You know actually as for me he seems at the end TOO efficient with the claw – remember she what wielding this kind of weapon first time in the live and still was more efficient with that than a charr who was training her fight skills for her all life…
Ember Doomforge,
there are also some “gifts” that we can consider as “magical” if we just look on the magic from the “lower” perspective. (I’m sure I could name some.. if not the fact that GoA I’ve read more than Year ago….)

maybe the whole thing is that magic truelly isn’t just the ability to cast spells but everybody have magical abilities that looks more “normal” but still they have it thanks to magic?

Lord Trejgon.2809:

and maybe all folks here don’t understand well what exacly magic is?

The problem is that the interviewee doesn’t understand magic as far as GW lore goes – there may be many explanations for it (as far as general magic explanations, outside of GW, go), but a lot of it was nailed down in GW1 (and therefore we need to work with that, save retconning pretty much everything that was previously established) – and much of the pre-existing lore has been contradicted.

The bit where certain classes augment their physical fighting ability with magic is completely obvious, to the point where stating it indicates that the person is not entirely familiar with GW lore (or fantasy lore as whole, I am struggling to come up with a fantasy game where that is not the case). There are fighters people in GW with no magical abilities (the players are not allowed to play them), and non-magic classes do play a part in other games – but us players can visually see the difference between a person with magic (you) and those who do not (warrior NPCs, for example).

Some people having magic and others not is under the microscope here – it’s how outright ridiculous that interview is.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For taking the time of providing many of the sources I was thinking of after I saw how little sense that interview was, and proving that I’m just too kitten ed lazy to, I present Thalador with this gif:

(P.S., I fully agree with everything I bothered to read of his posts; I suggest Angel do a recap on the game’s lore, otherwise I may have to hop on Obsidian’s bandwagon after vandalizing it to be “separate lore continuities between Guild Wars 2 and Living Story”)

I…I…erm… o.o

zamalek.2154:

Angel McCoy:

ley lines

Really?!?! (look I know they are based in reality, but they are geographic features, not mystical ones). Next thing in GW2: Frostmourne, Conan, and Mickey Mouse.

Yeah.. because WoW is the only fantasy world that uses Ley lines……….

lordkrall.7241:

Yeah.. because WoW is the only fantasy world that uses Ley lines……….

^

http://rifts.wikia.com/wiki/Ley_Line_Walker

http://rifts.wikia.com/wiki/Ley_Lines

Ley Lines is a very common fantasy concept. And that may even tie into the globe in the Chantry of Secrets (the shining blue lines and dots). The ley line bit is the least problematic of the interview.

Yeah, how magic flows through Tyria was unknown, except that it flowed through the bloodstones… at least, it used to…

lordkrall.7241:

[…]

I had a response, but it seemed like I would joining in with arguing for the sake of arguing – so I deleted it. Now everyone seems to have. You have to love the internet.

Either way, I am not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. A lot of fantasy does use ley lines as an explanation, making it a cliche, making a weak story mechanic. Which means I have a point, do you have one?

My point was that it was not something taken from WoW, as the poster I quoted tried to imply.

In an attempt to steer away from the ley lines issue, one thing I noticed Thalador forgot to bring up that’s been bugging me is Angel McCoy’s comment on mesmers:

Orr: Are the illusions created by mesmers visible to anybody or only to the caster and the spell target?

Angel McCoy: This depends. Casting an illusion that can only be seen by one person is an extremely advanced skill as it requires getting directly into an individual’s mind. Only the most skilled of mesmers can do this, and mesmers don’t talk about this ability. If people were to find out that mesmers could do this, it would prejudice people against mesmers and damage the trust and love mesmers work so hard to inspire in others.

No documentation of this ability exists outside the Mesmer community because the targets of this kind of spell don’t realize they’ve been duped. No one else can corroborate their experience either, so…it’s often explained away as battle fatigue. Even within the mesmer community, knowledge of this kind of spell is “need to know” only, which means only the most elder and experienced are initiated into the circle.

Basically, what McCoy says is that using an illusion on one person in of itself is an extremely advanced skill that affects an individual’s mind directly, and only few mesmers can do this. Furthermore, they don’t share that they can do this, even with the so-called “mesmer community.” However…

1. This is exactly what every single player character does and can do with their very first spell – creating a clone of themselves.
2. Queen Jennah does this on an epic scale – she creates an illusion of Kralkatorrik that tricks the Branded, as well as all humans and charr, and then openly admits she did such. Page 403 and 404 of Edge of Destiny.
3. Let’s not forget that illusions is the thing about mesmers. If they were to be hiding their ability to create illusions, then wouldn’t they be hiding their very existence? But that’s very much not the case. And on the point of mesmers being untrusted – it’s necromancy which isn’t trusted, but elementalists and mesmers are; and like I said, illusions are the thing about mesmers, so it seems extremely hard to believe that it’s merely an illusion.

Addendum to point 3 (didn’t want to make that to large), throughout the personal storyline and open world, we have folks who basically go “it was just an illusion!” Signifying that the ability to make illusions is well known even among NPCs.

• From The Floating Grizwhirl The Fabulous Chakravarti: Hey, that’s not supposed to happen. Oh no, Wiggly’s gone rogue! Help! Someone, help! He’ll kill us all! Thank you, thank you! I mean, uh…all part of the act, folks! Just one of Madam Gilda’s illusions! Yes, just an… illusion. Whew. – an open desplay of mesmer illusions as entertainment. This is just one of at least three cases where it’s done – the other two I know of by Wozmack the Wonderful in Welcome Home and Victory or Death.
• From Follow the Trail _Emer Whipmane: That’s your story. I say we need to find Vallus to find the truth. His illusions won’t save him from me. _ – the gladium father openly uses an illusion to trick the PC and his warband.
• By Seraph Spy Ivy in Brisban, related to a heart – " The disguise will put an illusion around you and make you look like one of them. I’ll let you into the camp once you’re ready. Oh, and in your pocket, you’ll find baneberry poison. Are you ready?" – an explanation of the mesmer transformation magics, openly talking about… illusions! Scholar Olenn does the same, as well as a few other heart NPCs.
• Fixing the Blame and the whole storyline there is all about solving a problem made by illusions, known to be mesmer magic. In Marshaling the Truth Trahearne says If she did use illusion, she’s either a mesmer or in league with one. basically saying “illusions can only be used by mesmers” – and he’s not a mesmer so if it was “a close kept secret, even among mesmers” he shouldn’t really know about it.
• Estate of Decay also makes reference to illusion usage by mesmers. There are other cases too, like Solve the mystery of the haunted marsh or Destroy the undead mesmer illusions events.
• And let’s not forget the Watchknights – hundreds of machines that openly use mesmer illusions to alter their appearance.

What McCoy said is that creating an illusion that only one person can see is very difficult- that is, personalizing the illusion so Person A sees something different than Person B. That holds up- for every case of illusions in the game that you list, everyone in the area sees the same thing as each other.

EDIT: That note about the mesmer community, though, and especially the bit about an inner circle… is she saying there’s some sort of overarching mesmer organization?

zamalek.2154:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

and maybe all folks here don’t understand well what exacly magic is?

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The problem is that the interviewee doesn’t understand magic as far as GW lore goes – there may be many explanations for it (as far as general magic explanations, outside of GW, go), but a lot of it was nailed down in GW1 (and therefore we need to work with that, save retconning pretty much everything that was previously established) – and much of the pre-existing lore has been contradicted.

The bit where certain classes augment their physical fighting ability with magic is completely obvious, to the point where stating it indicates that the person is not entirely familiar with GW lore (or fantasy lore as whole, I am struggling to come up with a fantasy game where that is not the case). There are fighters people in GW with no magical abilities (the players are not allowed to play them), and non-magic classes do play a part in other games – but us players can visually see the difference between a person with magic (you) and those who do not (warrior NPCs, for example).

Some people having magic and others not is under the microscope here – it’s how outright ridiculous that interview is.

even warriors in gw2 have acces to “signet” skills yeah?

ok maybe they are just retconing the whole “magic” part of tyria lore to the thing that I pointed

personally.. I don’t care – I’ve never seen anywhere this part that “magic have to be visible” neither in gw2 nor in gw. so for mine lore-knowledge-level it seems legit

Magic has always been treated as the use of spells in the past. Never explicitly said such, no, and magical energies can act invisibly (thus not “visible”) but I would argue that it’s more than just, say, having a lot of luck.

Just thought I’d throw this in here. And just to get out ahead of time, I’m new to Guild Wars and such, but I know a touch of the lore. And on the subject of Magic, I was thinking. We know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Abaddon created magic, right? And then there’s these dragons from before the age of gods or something that eat magic.

My theory is this: We know the Jotun were a magical race sense before the gods. So, perhaps there has always been magic. And Abaddon’s gift was limitless magic that would never be eaten up by a dragon, and that one did not need to study to use but could be used at will. Perhaps Abaddon’s magic, the blood magic, and the magic of the Elder Dragons are different. And now that Tyria is flooded with natural magic, they don’t need the now limited magic of their ancestors, and have begun to shift. Others have mentioned that the Guardian is a combination of Denial and Preservation, as well as a third? And that the Ele is a destruction mage. Perhaps they’re not using the bloodstones, and have adjusted as such, but an inkling still remains? Thoughts, opinions?

Actually, we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Abaddon did not create magic. He just parceled out what he found in the Bloodstone.

Also, good to see someone new trying their hand here! Welcome to the forum!

Aaron Ansari.1604:

What McCoy said is that creating an illusion that only one person can see is very difficult- that is, personalizing the illusion so Person A sees something different than Person B. That holds up- for every case of illusions in the game that you list, everyone in the area sees the same thing as each other.

EDIT: That note about the mesmer community, though, and especially the bit about an inner circle… is she saying there’s some sort of overarching mesmer organization?

With all this, though, illusions that only one person (namely, the victim) could see were basically the entire Illusions line in GW1. If something that every illusionist could do in 1070AEish is now some secret advanced technique that only the most powerful mesmers can pull off… well, maybe the GW2 mesmers aren’t as far ahead as their fuddy-duddy ancestors as they like to think.

Thanks! So it’s even more believable that the blood stones aren’t really all we’ve cracked them up to be. And if he didn’t create magic, who did? I’ve heard Seers but I’ve yet to look them up. And could the blood stones have been leaking back to the dragons? I believe the bloodstones were made to hold magic, and I think I read somewhere about it being an attempt to either control the magic that Abaddon gave to the masses, or to hide from the dragons. If the later is true, could shattering the stone into multiple pieces have been what let it just pour out into the world over time? And thus wake up the dragons?

It’s unclear, but magic seems to be a natural occurring force in Tyria, like gravity or heat. And the stone was originally created by the seers to starve out the EDs. The sundering occurred after Abaddon opened the floodgates, so to speak, in an attempt to control magic. What it supposedly did was limit how many things any one individual could do with magic… but Angel’s comments cast doubt on that version of events.

McCoy does seem to have her GW1 lore a bit off base. Have we gotten any word from Ree or the other guy the people on the forums were hoping to hear a response/followup from? Also, if there’s an over-arching mesmer organization, I’d love to know. It pertains to one of my favorite classes, and what she says hints at that. And not only would that be important information for RPing a Mesmer(and I do hope to possibly RP on here at some point, though the friends I wanted to RP with left because of the Lore issues) but it would also be friggen cool. I’d be part of a psychic organization!

To the best of my knowledge, no other lore dev has commented- and frankly, I don’t expect them to. What we’ve done here is ripped into one of their colleagues with uncalled for venom, in some cases devolving into deliberate personal attacks. Angel’s input has been rejected, insulted, and deemed beneath the very community for whom she found these answers in the first place- after all, these questions include some rather big ones, and the answers were given on a solely voluntary basis as an acknowledgement of the devs’ appreciation for how much the fans care about Tyria. She was in no way required to do this interview, and we were in no way entitled to have those questions answered. To be responded to in such a condescending, patronizing manner… no, I don’t think lore devs will be sticking their necks out again anytime soon (same goes for living story writers.)

Honestly, I think this comes down to a stylistic preference. Angel’s tone is not at all the same as Jeff’s, Ree’s, or Scott’s. There’s a… less professional, more enthusiastic feel to it, and some here link that to less educated about her world. I don’t think that’s the case. I just believe she’s new to answering interviews (in any event I can’t recall one from her before) and didn’t fully weigh what she said. I also think she gave us more than some of the others might (a full interview, and not a single tease or dodging of a question?) and that, combined with other factors, led some here to draw the erroneous conclusion that she invented facts by herself.

My two cents, anyway.

Aaron, to me at least, the issue with this interview is not Angel’s approach to answering, nor her syntax, nor her grammar, nor her vocabulary nor any of that stuff. It’s the fact that what she says outright contradicts GW1 and GW2 lore, it makes years of built up lore become “rubbish” in the face of this information.

What she says requires outright and blatant retconing of the first game’s showing of lore, by her just telling us. And she blatantly retcons the calendar for… what exactly? Something that still doesn’t work. And hell, she outright states that she, as a “loremaster” (her own self-titling at PAX), had completely forgotten about the Mouvelian calendar. And given her response, this proves she had completely forgotten about the Canthan calendar, Dynastic Reckoning, the placement of the New Year for Tyria aka Wintersday (Spring Solstice) and more.

She herself proved that she doesn’t know some important parts of lore, and shown that this interview was not live, but despite that didn’t even look up information that is available to all players ON THE WIKI ITSELF.

Like I said, it’s got nothing to do with how she answered questions. I actually enjoy the enthusiasm she shows, and the straightforwardness was a refreshing change of pace compared to the other interviews. I just wish she’d include some professionalism to her enthusiasm, and be more careful with her obvious mess-up that calls into question her knowledge as a “loremaster.”

I respect Ree, Jeff, and even Scott despite his hand in the creation of Scarlet. I respect Bobby Stein and Matthew Medina as well, despite Matt’s language creations all being mere ciphers rather than something a bit more… complex. I’d respect Angel too, despite the direction of the Living Story, if it weren’t for her showing she doesn’t know her own job at the end, and obviously didn’t do proper research on the question she was answering.

I MIGHT have been fine with her blatant retcon, IF it included all issues of the Tyrian and Earth timelines syncing up.

Minor correction – it wasn’t her blatant retcon, if she’s to be taken truthful about that meeting. But she was the figurehead who presented it. Though it would have been FAR better to have just gone “the two don’t link up perfectly.”

The issue I take with this is the admission of “We forgot about it”. What? Seriously? Sometimes things have to be sugar-coated.

That tongue-in-cheek asura comment about how they added days to it… justify it a bit, for lore sake. Say that the progression of Tyria’s rotation has changed in 250 years and that the years are longer now, due to the… free flow of magic now that the ED are back, or something, which forced the scholars to add the days to the calendar. Some justification.

But we got nothing.

I just realized something. About magic. So, from what I understand, and correct me if I’m wrong. There were four blood stones(originally one) and they were Preservation, Denial, Aggression, and Destruction. And a person could only draw from one stone, correct? Do we know why they drew from that one stone? Were they born with some sort of mark for aggression, or did they just have aggressive tendencies. Like, they were, as a person, aggressive.

If my hypothesis is correct,(yes I used hypothesis instead of idea ‘cause it makes me sound smarter, and Asura race is best race) then, it /was/ humans just limiting their magic subconsciously. They were an aggressive person, and drew on aggression magic. But what if they realized this in the past 250 years, was it? And are now able to kind of get into the mind set of not being so single minded? For example, a guardian appears to be using(if I understand magic right) both Denial /and/ Preservation magic. And a warrior appears to be using aggression magic. Or at least I assume they’re using magic when BEHOLD THE FLAMING ARROWS OF BALTHAZAR! So, while the blood stones are still a thing, races have just learned to mitigate, to some extent, the effect of the sundering.

Now, this doesn’t mean your magic is limitless. I imagine using denial and preservation together would only work if synced up, or at least used separately(use denial, and /then/ preservation). However, if you tried to use Destruction and Preservation together, I imagine the magic, or the blood stones would lock up. Like an Airbender using Earthbending, as a friend put it. (Nerd levels RISIIIIING!!1!ONE!), but if you used denial and preservation in just the right way, it could be like using Airbending and Waterbending together, (‘cause wind creates waves? Anyone? No? .-. Okay). So, in the guardian’s case, his sole purpose is to protect himself and his allies, so he’s able to draw on both, using them in a way that they do sync up. However, if he tried to use denial to harm, while using preservation to heal, it’d jam up.

Thoughts?

Monks in GW1 used Denial, for instance, when preventing damage… and Mesmers used a LOT of Energy Denial in their spells. Preservation was also used by Monks. Again, I’m going a lot on the Mechanics here.

The schools have degrees of overlap. Protective elements from monk/guardian magic aren’t really Denial – preservation in it’s purest sense is actually more about preventing damage in the first place rather than repairing it. The distinction is that Preservation classically could only prevent harm, but can’t do much to deny actions that don’t cause harm, while Denial could prevent defensive actions as well.

To use a GW1 example, a monk could remove hexes (preserving the target against the effect of the hex) but can’t remove beneficial enchantments. A mesmer could deny both.

Take any of the four primary spellcasters in GW1, and they have clear areas of focus, and areas where they overlap with one or more of the others. This does not mean that they’re necessarily sharing schools, just that there are some capabilities that are shared among multiple schools. As an analogy, think of the original structure of magic as a tetrahedron – each point represents the purest manifestation of a school, but as you work along the sides or even towards the middle, they start to overlap. The sundering of the Bloodstones essentially broke this tetrahedron into four pieces (or arguably five, with the very centre of the tetrahedron being rendered unavailable in the Keystone). The schools no longer blend into one another, but on the other hand, each is still more than the point – when you’re using magic sourced from a position along the magical three-dimensional spectrum that’s close to the break, it holds characteristics of one or more of the other schools.

So the monk, then, is still using Preservation magic – it’s just that some things in their skillset are sourced from close to the boundary with Denial (such as hex removal), Destruction (damaging Smiting prayers, especially ones involving fire) and arguably even Aggression (Balthazar’s Spirit, for example, adrenaline boosting normally being a necromancer thing in GW1).

Rhaegar.1203:

The issue I take with this is the admission of “We forgot about it”. What? Seriously? Sometimes things have to be sugar-coated.

That tongue-in-cheek asura comment about how they added days to it… justify it a bit, for lore sake. Say that the progression of Tyria’s rotation has changed in 250 years and that the years are longer now, due to the… free flow of magic now that the ED are back, or something, which forced the scholars to add the days to the calendar. Some justification.

But we got nothing.

“In the year 1264, it was observed that the length of a day had shortened by a little under 1.4%. Tyrian astronomers and timekeepers have tracked this shortening to have occurred on day 17 of the Season of the Phoenix, coinciding with a minor earthquake that, unusually, was recorded across known Tyria, including locations not believed to be geologically active. The cause of this event remains a mystery. To account for the additional days added to the year, the length of each season has been extended to 91 days, and Wintersday is now regarded as a special day outside of the seasons.”

There. With a few minute’s thought and imagination, it stops being a retcon and becomes a hook.

@Draxynnic

But could the limitation to one bloodstone actually be just a figment of the imagination? Like, could that not be a ret-con so much as, it was just a lack of understanding how magic truly worked? And in reality, they /could/ draw on multiple stones, though admittedly, something like the Aggression school would be difficult to draw on if one was predisposed to being gentle and pacifistic. But could it be possible, sense ultimately they /were/ one stone before? And it just took several generations to learn how to properly harness it?

Loki.9147:

So, from what I understand, and correct me if I’m wrong. There were four blood stones(originally one) and they were Preservation, Denial, Aggression, and Destruction. And a person could only draw from one stone, correct?

Incorrect.

There were five pieces – four were related to the schools, defining them. The fifth was the keystone, required to reunite the four other pieces.

And one person could not draw from all four schools at a single time/with a single spell. Given the secondary profession system in GW1, it seems that with training and special conditions met (Ascension/Weh no Su), one can access all schools, but only two at a time at most.

It might have even been possible to use three schools at a time. Just never four. But we don’t have a case of three professions of differing schools being used in GW1 to really show support, and NPCs in GW2 don’t have professions (though they may use PC-usable skills).

Loki.9147:

Do we know why they drew from that one stone? Were they born with some sort of mark for aggression, or did they just have aggressive tendencies. Like, they were, as a person, aggressive.

From how things are presented, though never outright confirmed, it seems that some people have tendencies to certain schools of magic, while at the same time they can choose which schools to learn from. Like a person who is naturally talented in drawing, but may want to sing instead.

Anyways, to your hypothesis – I would say that Guardians don’t use denial, but only preservation. Monks and Paragons in GW1 had protective skills but seemed to be Preservation alone.

When one thinks of the schools, one shouldn’t think of it as “what is done” but “how it is done” – or at least that’s how I’ve always taken things, given the lore prior to this interview. Preserving can prevent harm done to the body, just as well as it can heal harm done, in my mind in a way of “preserving the current state”. One can view a similar action to be denial in “preventing damage” as well – in this concept, both denial and preservation can achieve the same feat, but using different methods and mentalities.

Though that’s pretty much my own theory on how the schools function in distinction – by methodology and not outcome – it would clarify a lot of the GW1 skills around the professions. Though such seems to have gotten muddled up in GW2’s skills.

Thanks for the response, Konig! Though, to clarify. I never meant to say that you could use all four at once. I just meant to say, maybe it was possible to learn to use multiple ones, either one at a time, or in a meld. Though according to information given, it seems that the schools blend in a sense, so what I thought was two schools really /is/ just one. One other class I’d like to point to, and maybe there’s an explanation for it. But, Elementals can use water to heal, and also kill with fire, though never both at the same time. Are they possibly trained in both aggression and preservation?
Edit: Would the Guardian’s Scepter skill Chains of Light(immobilize) be a Denial spell?

But my question still kind of stands. Is it possible that now that people have developed their magical abilities more and more, that eventually they learned to draw upon magic with fewer restrictions? And something else I was curious about, when you draw magic out of the blood-stone(I assume that’s how it works?) does it go back into the stone after it’s used? Or does it just kind of float around the atmosphere? I don’t think it’s consumed by your spells, ‘cause the Asura mentioned in the personal story that magic is never consumed. I forget the exact explanation, though. And that’s why they had a hard time believing that dragons actually consume magic.

Also, out of curiosity. She says that Charr learn magic in the Fahrars. A friend of mine argues that that’s completely against the lore, with Charr hating magic. So my question is, would Charr teach magic in the Fahrars, simply out of respect for the fact that it’s useful? (Even if they’re still gonna treat you like Ash-Trash?)

As far as the bloodstones go, I’ve heard two reasonable explanations that account for both previous lore and this interview. The first is, like you say, that the four schools were only ever a cultural quirk of the humans, something ingrained in their psyche that’s broken down in the latest centuries. The second, and the one that I favor, is that environmental magic levels have risen to such a point that they are a viable alternative to the bloodstones, and as such tapping into the bloodstones has fallen out of favor due to that method’s inherent limitations.

And yes, charr learn their magic in a fahrar. Charr make the most of an individual’s talents, even magic. However, due to those cultural prejudices, the fahrar is probably not particularly effective with such training, especially compared to, say, how one might teach engineering. I believe it safe to say that if one were to compare the average spellcaster from each of the playable races, the charr caster would be the least powerful, or at least have had the worst education. (Norn have a competitive edge over charr because the majority of their spellcasters are shamans, who employ an effective apprenticeship method.)

The obvious exception is the Flame Legion, who have some very powerful shamans. However, I firmly believe that there is some downside to their powers that we are not made aware of in-game.

Elementalists use Destruction magic. This was outright confirmed on guildwars2.com back during the profession reveals. Since then however, they dumbed down the profession and race pages and a few very interesting tidbits – like the Destruction magic bit – was lost in the transition.

I’ve always suspected (as have many others) that Elementalists use destruction magic – which makes sense. By destroying the ground, they can use the chunks of earth to protect/block or as projectiles; fire and lightning are both naturally destructive, and one can cause destruction in water to make it explode or in the air to cause gusts and explosions; similarly, ice was frequently used in GW1 which would be deadly (thus destructive).

The new elementalist skills that heal – in fact, healing on a general note across all non-Guardian professions – is an interesting development which is perplexing. Is it just finding new ways to use the four schools, or did preservation get mixed into the professions thus limiting folks from using more professions (as more schools would become difficult to handle)?

To the Guardian skill and immobilize – I’d view that as preserving to the point of semi-petrification. After all, how does one preserve meat? Solidify it with ice!

As to drawing upon magic with fewer restrictions… that wouldn’t work with previously established lore. Hence the issue with the interview. The previous lore is that because of the bloodstones being split, it is outright impossible to use magic without the restrictions of the schools, unless/until the bloodstones are united.

There’s really only two ways to counter it: That magic in the world naturally – without the bloodstones – grew so much that it eclipses the bloodstones magic in usability; t his in turn means two things: 1) the hibernation period this time around for the ED was longer than previously (reasonable), and 2) that this had already been the case during GW1 (otherwise point 1 wouldn’t make logical sense) – or at least was, but not noticeably so.

Alternatively, it can mean that the bloodstones – be it all or just some – were reunited without people knowing. Which seems unlikely, given that every spellcaster in the world should have felt such an event in the change of their magic – theoretically at least.

As for how magic from the bloodstone works… it’s honestly never been explained. I’ve figured – since doing Arah explorable that is – that it just continuously seep out magic; magic in the world is a finite resource after all, implying that when one casts a spell, the amount of magic in the world reduces a little. And about the asura storyline – both sides are actually said; that it is previous belief to be an infinite resource, while a new theory involving Elder Dragons consuming magic says that it is a finite resource. Which is the case, is unknown, though Elder Dragons do consume and absorb magic – that’s outright confirmed.

As to the charr and magic bit – charr hate magic, but they realize its usefulness, so they still do learn it. HOW they learn it has never really been explained though.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The new elementalist skills that heal – in fact, healing on a general note across all non-Guardian professions – is an interesting development which is perplexing. Is it just finding new ways to use the four schools, or did preservation get mixed into the professions thus limiting folks from using more professions (as more schools would become difficult to handle)?

I thought about that too and think that all ele heals are composed of cleverly applied destruction in such way that it actually does the opposite.
That was true in first game perhaps too, where we had enchantment that would heal and energy gain each time you cast something and glyph that would heal you when next several spells cast and regen from some water spells.