Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

So we are now insulting the fact that the game has strong female characters? I for one find it really refreshing to be playing in a world where a guy doesn’t have to be the one who figures everything out and saves the day.

Strong, but kinky female characters who admit not wearing any clothes, and who have a thing for each other.

Serious question time. If it had been a male mesmer who had said something similar, would we be having this conversation at all? Or would it never have come close to making it into the game?

To me, most of the female characters do not generally come off as strong, except for Marjory and maybe Ellen Kiel. And when a semi-lesbian relationship gets thrown in like that… it kind of feels like fan service, it really does.

I find Eir Stegalkin as a strong character who identifies as female. I find Zojja . . .

(retching noises)

. . . to have a strong characterization to her as well. A lot of the charr female characters have strong notes, like Eurayle and Rox. Kasmeer has had a consistent and definite character since I had first seen the character in Southsun. Ellen Kiel and Marjory are not the only strong female characters in the game.

Let me rephrase that, it didn’t come across as natural. It felt forced.

Of course it does. We don’t see these two when they’re “off stage”, so we don’t see what they look like “relaxed”, except for the one cinematic during Dragon Bash with Marjory. So when she finally does relax a bit enough to let something slip, it doesn’t jive with how we know her.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well . . . there’s a difference between “strong female character” and “why do they have male characters, anyway?” . . . personally, I haven’t seen what DarksunG is going on about.

Well I don’t think this thread needs to go down that road given how it deviates from the topic but off the top of my head I would point out Ellen Kiel’s flawless handling of the Southsun debacle using her intelligence and magical self piloting ship compared to Canach’s… whatever his plan was, it was bad, so not only did Kiel figure out a perfect solution, she foiled Canach at the same time. Then we had the Queen’s Speech where Anise was juxtaposed with Logan in a story that perfectly positioned Anise to outsmart Tyria’s unbelievably smart villain because Anise is very professional and good at her job while Logan is very unprofessional and bad at his job. Not only did he get outsmarted by both Anise and Scarlet, Anise was taunting him throughout the whole thing (during the opening ceremony with the Rytlock illusion and then telling him off like a child when he protested about him being left out of her plan potentially endangering the Queen’s life). There might be more but honestly between Marjory, Kasmeer, Kiel and Rox the story hasn’t had much time for males. Braham’s presence pales in comparison to Kasmeer and Marjory’s, even Rox is more notable than him. Who are we left with? Lord Faren and Evon? Kiel gets the squeaky clean political image while Evon was handed scumbag corrupt politician. When two characters of opposite genders were juxtaposed, the Living Story usually falls on the side of the female.

Maybe it’s a good thing this thread deviated from the original topic. No-one seemed truly interested in discussing the nuances of whether or not Marjory and Kasmeer are cynically being used for sex appeal or not. Put their relationship in context of the story and other relationships (even non-romantic ones) and explain with context or examples why you think it is or isn’t.

@FlamingFoxx I live in a part of the world where your life doesn’t even seem realistic. Even if you don’t experience personal discrimination, you see institutional discrimination on the news most days (gay marriage). A world without discrimination of that kind simply doesn’t exist yet from what I’ve seen.

@JohnLShannonhouse Braham’s relationship was resolved. She dumped him after he rescued her.

Shiren.9532:

When two characters of opposite genders were juxtaposed, the Living Story usually falls on the side of the female

Except with Eir/Braham, where norn society wouldn’t care about the relationship at all. Or Rox/Rytlock, where Rox suffers having the appearance of a fangirl. (“Can I join your warband?”) Captain Magnus vs Ellen Kiel it always appears as though Magnus has the upper hand in the relationship as a mentor and supporter who has power there. Canach was winning over Ellen until outside forces got involved. Braham and his would-be sweetheart, who decided to dump him for no seemingly relevant reason.

I could get in on Logan’s stuff but the way all the story past Human Personal Story chapters one and two really don’t wind up flattering to him at all. Though to be fair, he is descended from overly-clingy Keiran Thackeray and the nutjob hothead racist who was Gwen so it’s to be expected.

Maybe it’s a good thing this thread deviated from the original topic.

So let’s get back on topic.

No-one seemed truly interested in discussing the nuances of whether or not Marjory and Kasmeer are cynically being used for sex appeal or not. Put their relationship in context of the story and other relationships (even non-romantic ones) and explain with context or examples why you think it is or isn’t.

Of course it’s got sex appeal. At least to people who see Kasmeer or Marjory as “sexy”, and I’m not really one of those. Their relationship has been downplayed through most of the content thus far, with two notable exceptions. Kasmeer being invited along to Dragon Bash with Marjory, and not seeming to have had any impact on what happened there at all . . . and this comment after the Tower collapsed which made everyone lose their flipping minds.

Both times, Marjory was relaxed and more in her element. When she’s on task, she is fiercely on task and even cautions against getting off track when scouting the Tower’s chambers if she’s present. It makes sense she wouldn’t say anything off-task to Kasmeer until it was all over . . . and making sure it was all over except the cleanup.

I was specifically talking about Living Story as opposed to Personal Story when it comes to gender portrayal. It seems to me a different writer is calling the shots for the Living Story which has caused it to take on a certain slant..

As far as Kasmeer and Marjory being sexy, look at the other two people in the new group. Braham and Rox. Aesthetically Braham might be considered sexy, but most of is dialogue is suggesting a friendship or “bromance” with Rox (to be fair, it’s less likely they will be viewed any other way because of their races). Then look at Rox, clearly not sexy at all – she’s a cat person.

Both Marjory and Kasmeer as very attractive females. Then again, every human female in Tyria seems to “suffer” from this. Kasmeer wears very impractical clothing (heels, revealing dress etc), we first meet her in a bikini and to boot we find out she’s actually naked (imo that was a joke that people wanted to believe, I find it absurd anyone would truly go without armor in Tyria). Cut to Marjory and her voice actor portrays her sensually. It may be an attempt to remind people of film noir, which is a very sensual genre of cinema.

Honestly I don’t think the writers are exploiting this pairing because lesbians are sexy. I don’t think they’ve officially confirmed they are a pairing (beyond being partners and friends) and everything has been ambiguous subtext like what happened with Xena and Gabriel in their TV show (few people would argue that those two weren’t a romantic pairing by the end of the show but it was never officially confirmed on-air). I think the sex appeal of Kasmeer is a part of her character (Tyrian socialite apparently) and Marjory’s is a consequence of the genre of film she is a nod to. I personally don’t have a problem with “sex appeal” or sensual characters in the game (you don’t have to find the characters attractive to enjoy the cheekiness of it), I think they are good things to have provided the characters are treated with respect (which Marjory and Kasmeer certainly are imo, they are given important roles in events and don’t exist simply for fan service). I think you’d have to be more cynical than me to think the writers sat in a room and said “let’s write two sexy lesbians because our audience will enjoy that”. I believe they have more respect than that (for lesbians, their audience, their story and themselves) and I believe it shows in the treatment Marjory and Kasmeer have been given in the story (in a previous post I mentioned how their closeness is similar to Rox and Braham, it’s character development to get us to like them and see them as a team – and it’s working given there are people who care about what happens to them). Maybe the line about nakedness was put in there for people to get excited about (maybe a writer was trying to write playful dialogue and that line made them smile the most – it was cheeky and funny and captures Kasmeer’s personality regardless of whether you find it sexy), but for the most part I’d say any reception one way or another reflects more on the audience than it does on the writers.

On the topic of bias, writers are going to write what they want to write. If you wrote a story, why would you write characters you didn’t like? Why would you write events you didn’t want to happen? That’s the author’s privilege.

I’m recyling points at this point, I have nothing left to “add” to this discussion.

Shiren.9532:

Then look at Rox, clearly not sexy at all – she’s a cat person.

Aaaaand I can think of five people off the top of my head who would disagree vehemently with the assessment she cannot be sexy. (And no, no I’m not going to even ask them about it.)

Both Marjory and Kasmeer as very attractive females. Then again, every human female in Tyria seems to “suffer” from this. Kasmeer wears very impractical clothing (heels, revealing dress etc), we first meet her in a bikini and to boot we find out she’s actually naked (imo that was a joke that people wanted to believe, I find it absurd anyone would truly go without armor in Tyria).

I assumed it was a jab at Marjory to tease, the more I think on it. She was probably wearing a patchy blue bathrobe under that glamour.

Cut to Marjory and her voice actor portrays her sensually. It may be an attempt to remind people of film noir, which is a very sensual genre of cinema.

Sensual =/= Sexual. Also, despite this? She doesn’t behave overtly sexual even at this point. She acts with confidence. It’s not “look at my breasts” its “yes, yes, I’m pretty, now can we get on with it?”.

I’m recyling points at this point, I have nothing left to “add” to this discussion.

Really, being a mostly heterosexual male? I never should have come within shouting distance of this conversation. Though as a writer who has his share of writing to get done . . . eventually . . . it irks me to find the sort of reaction “it’s done for the giggles/Political Correctness/agenda” being trotted out when it is “maybe that’s just how the writers saw it after writing the characters behaving together”.

I actually find their possible relationship understandable, or at least from Kasmeer’s pov. Kasmeer’s entire life got turned upside down only a short while ago, and Marjory was the one to help her in her time of need. Marjory picked her off of the ground, gave her a job, gave her life purpose again, and Kasmeer is probably eternally grateful. Any feelings on Kasmeer’s part, probably came from the fact that Marjory is the one stable encouraging force in her life at the moment. I’m sure it also helped that Marjory is a strong person with a personality that draws people in.

That’s my view anyway…

FlamingFoxx.1305:

So we are now insulting the fact that the game has strong female characters? I for one find it really refreshing to be playing in a world where a guy doesn’t have to be the one who figures everything out and saves the day.

I don’t even pay attention to that but I gotta agree. If it were the other way around nobody would even mention it. Cuz it is “sorta expected”.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

So we are now insulting the fact that the game has strong female characters? I for one find it really refreshing to be playing in a world where a guy doesn’t have to be the one who figures everything out and saves the day.

replace word strong with contrived and you eluding to making people have every right to call these “characters” bad, sexist(in your eyes) is proving you have nothing stand of but accusing us something were not. The story is BAD and calling us out claiming our argument is “putting men is story cuz girls ew” is not doing anything to make things better.

this is honestly the first time I have seen people complain about strong female characters/ and or same sex relationships in a game.
Mostly it is the other way around :p

Morrigan.2809:

this is honestly the first time I have seen people complain about strong female characters/ and or same sex relationships in a game.
Mostly it is the other way around :p

It happens sometimes when strong female characters are so overpowering for the cast they dominate the narrative . . . or if they’re written to be usually always right and never wrong or when wrong, failing to be called out on it.

I can’t recall the last videogame I played personally which had that problem, but I hear Miranda of ME2 was incredibly difficult to like over said reasons.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Morrigan.2809:

this is honestly the first time I have seen people complain about strong female characters/ and or same sex relationships in a game.
Mostly it is the other way around :p

It happens sometimes when strong female characters are so overpowering for the cast they dominate the narrative . . . or if they’re written to be usually always right and never wrong or when wrong, failing to be called out on it.

I can’t recall the last videogame I played personally which had that problem, but I hear Miranda of ME2 was incredibly difficult to like over said reasons.

The problem I’m having with that viewpoint is that the characters aren’t shown to be wrong or infallible. People just aren’t seeing it. Take Kasmeer for example, her side dialogue tends to involve Majory explaining what’s going on to her, so yeah she rebuffed Farens advances, but she isn’t made out to be some all knowing goddess either. Then if we look at Majory, at no point would I say she has ever been portrayed as overpowering or dominating, especially in regards to her interactions with male characters. Which is sort of limited to Logan and Braham at this point I guess. But her character and dialogue are really just there for a little bit of humour.
The only female character I can actually think of who fits the overpowering category is Anise, and that’s only with Logan – and I personally consider it warranted because he is such a ridiculous child.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Morrigan.2809:

this is honestly the first time I have seen people complain about strong female characters/ and or same sex relationships in a game.
Mostly it is the other way around :p

It happens sometimes when strong female characters are so overpowering for the cast they dominate the narrative . . . or if they’re written to be usually always right and never wrong or when wrong, failing to be called out on it.

I can’t recall the last videogame I played personally which had that problem, but I hear Miranda of ME2 was incredibly difficult to like over said reasons.

The problem I’m having with that viewpoint is that the characters aren’t shown to be wrong or infallible. People just aren’t seeing it.

I’m not talking about this game, just in general. Honestly I haven’t seen a strong female character in this game’s narrative who steps over that line. Not even Scarlet gets over that.

The only female character I can actually think of who fits the overpowering category is Anise, and that’s only with Logan – and I personally consider it warranted because he is such a ridiculous child.

It’s true. She stands out for behaving like a professional and he (again) is written to lose all his detachment when the queen is involved. I seriously wonder about why the writers have that going on . . . he’s nowhere near this bad in the Personal Story I went through

I think what scares me is that it looks as if the writers think he is a really good hero :S
I personally find him to be the least convincing character in the game (apart from like every single Quaggan, since they just don’t make any sense whatsoever and I want to burn them all).

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I personally find him to be the least convincing character in the game

I got two more:

“By Ogden’s Hammer, what savings!” (From a norn . . .)

and Irongut. You can’t savor that atrocious swill. No. You can’t.

The relationship is not particularly front and centre, I don’t think - my mesmer, who’s my main for Living StoryWorld™ stuff these days, knows it’s still all about him! He’s definitely the prettiest! I don’t particularly listen to their banter (usually checking for shinies in my inventory); nor am I bothered about what they say on the occasion I do listen.

You know, I’m not even bothered if Kasmeer dies. Marjory’s a necromancer.

"Never waste a corpse!"*

*admittedly, that was from the Asuran perspective.

As if there’s not any homosexual overtones with Logan & Rytlock, I agree that ANet couldn’t get away with showing gay main characters (even if it would just be in the dialogue like Mar & Kas). In a world where gamers consist mostly of young males, a lesbian relationship is not so tough to pull off.

Logan and Rytlock are clearly a love-hate friendly relationship. Not in a homosexual way clearly. Theirs seems more like a friendly brothers-in-battle relationship, without any romance.

Traveller.7496:

As if there’s not any homosexual overtones with Logan & Rytlock, I agree that ANet couldn’t get away with showing gay main characters (even if it would just be in the dialogue like Mar & Kas). In a world where gamers consist mostly of young males, a lesbian relationship is not so tough to pull off.

I wouldn’t say that gamers consist mostly of young males, since gamers have been growing up since the 70s and 80s. I would say that its marketed to mostly young males.

I do agree though. It’s much easier to get away with a female couple than a male one. Not to mention, if they feature a prominent male couple, there is a possibility to draw some negative media (cough)FoxNews(cough) attention.

@Mad Queen Malafide

In other words, they have a bromance.

Erukk.1408:

I do agree though. It’s much easier to get away with a female couple than a male one. Not to mention, if they feature a prominent male couple, there is a possibility to draw some negative media (cough)FoxNews(cough) attention.

It’s weird how most people are more easily offended by two men, but when it’s two women it’s considered hot. But you’re right.

Erukk.1408:

In other words, they have a bromance.

Yup.

I am asexual/nonsexual offline, and as someone with a neutral genderpoint and NO biases, these are my honest opinions

Caithe and Faolain seem to be an emotional romance rather than sexual.
There are plenty of hetero relationships.
The Marjory/Kasmeer romance feels 100% forced.

It was pretty easy to tell right from the get-go that Kasmeer and ’Jory were a couple. It was being commented on right here on the forums by the first few people who went to the Dead End Bar, just how… attached… the two appeared to be. Dagdar and Eladis, then Caithe and Faolain can be explained away as a way to explain how agender the Sylvari are, but Kasmeer and Marjory are pretty obvious.

The way that Marjory talks to Kasmeer is reminiscent of how your kitten Tracy type detectives would speak to a ‘babe’ in those old black & white movies. That isn’t to say that she doesn’t flirt with men too, but the way it is done just feels so forced and false. When she does this with men, she is trying to tease for fun or obtain information. When she does it with Kasmeer, there is no other possible motive than direct flirtation.

It feels – totally – like fanservice. I’m all for mixed gender/race/species relationships, but the way this is played out feels awkward and contrived.

Kasmeer is a totally airheaded space cadet bimbo, Marjory is an over-sultry for it’s own sake anachronism.

Apart from that, Marjory just feels completely out of place in this game. I don’t like her, I wish I’d never seen her, and I don’t care if she gets destroyed.

That’s what Marjory and Kasmeer reminded me of, kitten Tracy, not Sherlock and Watson. It’s been a while since I saw either one of those franchises but Sherlock and Watson seemed more like a partnership, I never saw Kasmeer on the same level as Watson (when she is useful it rarely has anything to do with their jobs).

I agree about Marjory feeling out of place in Tyria. I liked the stylised introduction but I didn’t like the film noir thing beyond the initial novelty. It feels like a clash of styles and Marjory ends up being the odd one out (a detective in Tyria? for one thing – Scarlet did it, case closed – and another, the scope of a detective story doesn’t utilise the epic world).

As far as Logan and Rytlock go, they are clearly in a bromance (similar to Rox and Braham) imo. It’s an age old cliché but it works well (I wish they had included Caithe a bit more because she was part of their original group yet she doesn’t seem to be shown as close as the other two). I don’t think I could ever see a charr and a human as a sexual couple (I don’t even think I could view norn and human that way despite the GW2 quest). Even if they were the same race, I don’t recall their dialogue as being as flirtatious and Marjory and Kasmeer’s (no jokes about being nude etc).

I don’t think the writers think Logan is a good hero, I think they view him as a feminist portrayal of the White Knight and the Princess. Instead of the White Knight rescuing the helpless princess (who is madly in love with the knight), the princess is smart and powerful and “needs no man” (except when she does, but not really lol). This leaves Logan standing there, being useless (because he’s written as the hero that saves the princess… who doesn’t need saving) and utterly infatuated with the her while Jennah remains composed and in control. Jennah might have feelings for Logan, but she’s not the one who failed in Edge of Destiny resulting in Snaff and Glint’s deaths, Logan was (I believe Jennah has a share of the blame). Logan ran to her rescue, but Jennah ended up saving the day anyway. Jennah is viewed as one of the most powerful people in Tyria and a hero (admittedly she has a mixed reception from players), Logan was the most hated character in the game (then we met Trahearne and then Scarlet). Jennah’s feelings didn’t stop her from making the right decision in Clockwork Chaos and she agreed to leave Logan out of the loop on the body double idea (whereas Logan was emotional about it while demonstrating he’s bad at his job).

If we are going to pick on Marjory and Kasmeer’s relationship for being contrived, it might be fair to point out this is the case for most of the Living Story (every alliance, the protagonist’s reasons for being present all the time beyond their initial appearances) let alone the Personal Story or even the books (Logan and Jennah’s relationship was so poorly written and one sided, players are convinced she’s using mesmer magic on him).

I don’t understand when people say it feels forced. We didn’t get any dialogue of them openly talking about it, no cut scenes that were related to anything besides the LS story, no forced kiss scenes etc. as shows often like to hammer in "hey they totally are a couple and they like each other! " (I’m looking at you, Legend of Korra)…

If nothing, to me at least, it felt way better then Logan. In personal story he made sure to remind you in every other sentence that he has to protect the queen. Now that gets annoying after a while… even during the LS his unhealthy obsession didn’t stop.

CharrGirl.7896:

If nothing, to me at least, it felt way better then Logan. In personal story he made sure to remind you in every other sentence that he has to protect the queen. Now that gets annoying after a while… even during the LS his unhealthy obsession didn’t stop.

That guy takes his job way too seriously. He needs a vacation, like Kiel got. I mean, it worked out for her right?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

CharrGirl.7896:

If nothing, to me at least, it felt way better then Logan. In personal story he made sure to remind you in every other sentence that he has to protect the queen. Now that gets annoying after a while… even during the LS his unhealthy obsession didn’t stop.

That guy takes his job way too seriously. He needs a vacation, like Kiel got. I mean, it worked out for her right?

Kiel will be the death of us

I think that it was suggested that they were lesbians previously, but now it’s set in stone with this last story.

I think it is great.

I am not gay (just wanted to get that out of the way) but it is nice seeing them confront this with two characters who i personally like a lot. Their dialog is generally funny. I like how one character is very dark and one very light. It adds a lot to their dynamic.

I have no problem with fanservice in GW2, but please give us more bromance. Whatever happened to the sexy, gay Sylvari couples?

Put a straight relationship in a game and nobody bats an eye.

Put a lesbian relationship in a game and everybody loses their minds!

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Put a straight relationship in a game and nobody bats an eye.

Put a lesbian relationship in a game and everybody loses their minds!

This quote needs a meme picture of the Joker. :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Put a straight relationship in a game and nobody bats an eye.

Put a lesbian relationship in a game and everybody loses their minds!

This quote needs a meme picture of the Joker. :P

Like this?

But look at Faren, he could totally be gay!

Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQMVbpwfJuc

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Like this?

+1 for that, hahahahaha.

Tyrantis.8640:

I am not gay (just wanted to get that out of the way)

Why do people feel the need to elaborate their sexual orientation before posting? Just curious. I noticed this pattern with lots of things…

I suppose a lot of people secretly feel uncomfortable with the topic. Whenever they discuss the topic of homosexuality, they feel the need to point out which side of the biological fence they are on.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I suppose a lot of people secretly feel uncomfortable with the topic. Whenever they discuss the topic of homosexuality, they feel the need to point out which side of the biological fence they are on.

Not necessarily. Some of us just get irritated when we sense that an agenda—-be it social, political, or whatever—-is getting shoehorned into a storyline that it has nothing to do with. If it were part of the storyline then yeah, I could see it. It’s not. Whom sleeps with whom has no bearing whatsoever on this particular storyline.

Tanith.5264:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I suppose a lot of people secretly feel uncomfortable with the topic. Whenever they discuss the topic of homosexuality, they feel the need to point out which side of the biological fence they are on.

Not necessarily. Some of us just get irritated when we sense that an agenda—-be it social, political, or whatever—-is getting shoehorned into a storyline that it has nothing to do with. If it were part of the storyline then yeah, I could see it. It’s not. Whom sleeps with whom has no bearing whatsoever on this particular storyline.

I was referring to the need of some people to also state their own sexuality when discussing the topic. Please don’t read it out of context.

Tanith.5264:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I suppose a lot of people secretly feel uncomfortable with the topic. Whenever they discuss the topic of homosexuality, they feel the need to point out which side of the biological fence they are on.

Not necessarily. Some of us just get irritated when we sense that an agenda—-be it social, political, or whatever—-is getting shoehorned into a storyline that it has nothing to do with. If it were part of the storyline then yeah, I could see it. It’s not. Whom sleeps with whom has no bearing whatsoever on this particular storyline.

Part of the storyline? No, maybe not. Part of the characters and their development? Yeah. You’ll see in lots of stories little character tidbits that get thrown there to flesh em out better and give them more personality that overall may or may not tie in the general storyline but what’s a good storyline without its characters?

CharrGirl.7896:

Part of the storyline? No, maybe not. Part of the characters and their development? Yeah. You’ll see in lots of stories little character tidbits that get thrown there to flesh em out better and give them more personality that overall may or may not tie in the general storyline but what’s a good storyline without its characters?

Nothing, of course. And as this is an unfolding storyline, only time will tell…and if it turns out I was wrong about it, I’ll happily come here and concede the point.

Tanith.5264:

Nothing, of course. And as this is an unfolding storyline, only time will tell…and if it turns out I was wrong about it, I’ll happily come here and concede the point.

I fully expect if it turns out to be nothing more than an offhand comment and this relationship is never brought up, we’ll be back here all discussing how Arenanet wants to bury any semblance of GLBT to please the “social norms”. And everyone will be staking out places and positions once more, causing more utterances of “now I’m not gay, but…” . . .

. . . and then we wind up right back at the top of the thread you replied to where people go “why does that actually matter at all what you are?”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . and then we wind up right back at the top of the thread you replied to where people go “why does that actually matter at all what you are?”.

Exactly.

Don’t know. Kind of bothers me, I thought of them as gender switched Sherlock&Watson. I might be biased but I think they create them like this, because it would be “cool”.

Tanith.5264:

Some of us just get irritated when we sense that an agenda—-be it social, political, or whatever—-is getting shoehorned into a storyline that it has nothing to do with.

A.. gay agenda?

Egon Vidar.9125:

Tanith.5264:

Some of us just get irritated when we sense that an agenda—-be it social, political, or whatever—-is getting shoehorned into a storyline that it has nothing to do with.

A.. gay agenda?

Any agenda that has nothing explicitly to do with the storyline of a game. The best example of this I can think of off the top of my head would be Bioshock, which clearly draws some of its inspiration from Atlas Shrugged. In that case it actually is part of the storyline and doesn’t come off as, well…pandering. Pandering annoys the living kitten out of me no matter who it’s aimed at. Cheapens the product.

I will say this. Now that I’ve actually had a chance to watch the “touching base” cutscene in LA and seen the interaction of Marjory and Kasmeer (and everyone else), I’m not as concerned as I was about this. There actually is a lot of character depth being introduced and I’m very happy to see that.

sAdam.5876:

Don’t know. Kind of bothers me, I thought of them as gender switched Sherlock&Watson. I might be biased but I think they create them like this, because it would be “cool”.

They do seem that way to me, and I’ve been reading from collections rather than just going by popular re-imaginings. Though Marjory is considerably less . . . perfect . . . about her craft as a detective than Sherlock is.

By the way, there’s countless theories about the aforementioned pair of investigators, mostly by people who haven’t actually read the stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Right now it feels like Marjory and Kasmeer teased a little, but don’t let that interfere in work.

I’m also not sold on them being a fully closed couple, considering how Marjory can sometimes flirt with my (male) ranger.

Egon Vidar.9125:

A.. gay agenda?

Emphasis on the shoehorned, not the agenda. All stories need to be trimmed to include only the relevant details. Unless the Marjory + Kasmeer relationship is going to end up relevant in some way, it doesn’t really need to be there.

Caithe and Faolain are in a lesbian relationship but it’s relevant because it’s the relationship between the main protagonist and antagonist in the Nightmare Court/Twilight Arbor, and their previous intimacy more or less establishes why Caithe has an interest in the Nightmare Court at all. It serves a purpose.

Logan and Jennah’s relationship is the basis for the entire story of Destiny’s Edge in GW2. If it wasn’t there, there wouldn’t be a story.

Does Marjory and Kasmeer’s relationship have the same importance to the story? We don’t know yet, but so far, it hasn’t any importance whatsoever.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m also not sold on them being a fully closed couple, considering how Marjory can sometimes flirt with my (male) ranger.

And my female Norn.

You know what’d be funny? If Kasmeer thinks that Marjory’s interested in her, but Marjory doesn’t have any feelings for Kasmeer and just flirts because it’s fun. A hole might be poked into this theory by them cuddling on the beach, but still.

Sarrs.4831:

You know what’d be funny? If Kasmeer thinks that Marjory’s interested in her, but Marjory doesn’t have any feelings for Kasmeer and just flirts because it’s fun. A hole might be poked into this theory by them cuddling on the beach, but still.

Or if Marjory cares about her more as a little sister, and Kasmeer has this ungodly strong crush on Marjory. It’s a love story all right . . .

. . . one-sided love story.

By the way, not saying I completely endorse this because finding them sitting next to each other in the harbor and Marjory just quietly listening to Kasmeer get emotional about this time of year reminds me of a good romantic story where they do actually get shown sharing even the sad moments so one doesn’t have to have it alone.

It’s definitely not living up to the “lesbians R hawt” image tried to be painted over this since that one comment. It is, in my opinion, being handled maturely even if it’s not important immediately to the story.

MatthewMedina.5419:

Of course there is a limit: Learning whether or not Braham likes ham

So….

Does Braham like ham?

It never occurred to me, but yeh, I can say that the amount of attention given to relationships in GW2 does seem to be a bit one-sided as far as orientation goes. It kind of makes you wonder who specifically is writing this and what their orientation just might be.

MatthewMedina.5419:

To be clear, the only “agenda” any of us at Arenanet have is to tell engaging and compelling stories using our medium of interactive narrative. Part of achieving that goal is to provide genuine and believable characters who have depth and interesting interpersonal dynamics, including the portrayal of complex and compelling relationships.

We have put much effort into making sure that Marjory, Kasmeer, Rox, Braham and now Taimi each bring a unique perspective to the overall Living World narrative, and we love exploring the various relationships of all of these characters, as well as those already established via the player’s personal story. You will see those relationships continue to grow and change, as you would expect of friends and comrades you encounter in real life.

Specifically with Marjory and Kasmeer, we’re trying to present two characters that have a burgeoning friendship and interest in one another, because that’s something that happens in life. We don’t generally talk much about it on forums or the like, because as has been pointed out before, we much prefer to tell their story in game wherever possible. But we would also like to think that our portrayal of their feelings towards each other is more than simply something you can define by “ticking a box”.

Regarding trimming stories of all but the “relevant details”: I would say that many of us on the dev team would actually agree with the idea that how two characters relate to one another, regardless of whether that interaction has direct bearing on the direction of the main plot-line, can and should be considered relevant. Such breadth of character traits may advance a side-plot, or no plot at all and can be used to simply establish a personality type or a behavior which informs a character’s actions as they progress through the narrative.

Of course there is a limit: Learning whether or not Braham likes ham, for example (say that five times fast) is probably better left on the cutting room floor, but exploring whether Braham likes Rox, or Taimi, or Logan (does anyone else want to see a guardian duel between these two?), well we believe that there’s real emotion there. And if it advances a plot, great…if not, it’s still part of the landscape of those characters, and that’s really important to us, and something that I would say we are more than eager and willing to explore.

And that’s why you’re awesome and keep it up!

A wild Barefoot Medina appears!

Konig uses Capture on Barefoot Medina!

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