Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

DragoTheWise.7256:

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

I hope you folks are seriously not considering the LS is happening at the same time as the Personal Story, and this is just a slip up on the post. I also would hope that everyone on the team can get this stuff straight so that this confusion doesn’t happen.

What Regina means is that for players who are currently going through their Personal Story, the LW timeline will seem to be happening at the same time. Technically, they happen at different times in Tyrian history. Personal Story predates the current Living World season by approximately one year.

So when you’re playing your Personal Story and are in an instance with Rytlock, etc. the assumption is that this is happening “in the past” whereas LW events are happening now.

Our hope is to provide better distinction of these timelines within the game, but that would come with the release of a planned feature that we’re not ready to discuss in depth just yet.

Looks like CanadianZombie and I had the same idea. This sounds like the suggestion I posted back when the Southsun event was going on (almost a year now, wow). It’s archived now, but the post is here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/My-Story-Expanded-Living-Story-Concept/first#post2137462

Basically, it was a way to show the stories from the website, but also give people a way to recap the events of the Living Story via the “My Story” tab. There was several images in the thread but I reattached one as an example. I am excited to see how it turns out!

Thank you for making a healthy, happy, functioning, and non-obsessive lesbian relationship. Caithe/Faolain is most certainly none of those things, and I find people trying to draw any parallel between the two couples to be very foolish.

I enjoy Kasmeer and Marjory, both for their own selves and for their fun and cute interactions together. It doesn’t feel “forced” at all. On the contrary, their relationship and care for each other seems very natural and well-written – much better written than a lot of the stuff in this game, I have to add, which is doubtless one big reason why they’ve become so popular.

That’s all I wanted to say. There’s a lot of negativity and needless, endless circular debates about the motives of the writers, and I simply wanted to counterbalance that with some appreciative words. These characters and their relationship have increased my enjoyment of the game. Thank you for making them.

BobbyStein.2315:

DragoTheWise.7256:

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

I hope you folks are seriously not considering the LS is happening at the same time as the Personal Story, and this is just a slip up on the post. I also would hope that everyone on the team can get this stuff straight so that this confusion doesn’t happen.

What Regina means is that for players who are currently going through their Personal Story, the LW timeline will seem to be happening at the same time. Technically, they happen at different times in Tyrian history. Personal Story predates the current Living World season by approximately one year.

So when you’re playing your Personal Story and are in an instance with Rytlock, etc. the assumption is that this is happening “in the past” whereas LW events are happening now.

Our hope is to provide better distinction of these timelines within the game, but that would come with the release of a planned feature that we’re not ready to discuss in depth just yet.

You could, for the time being, add a small “You are viewing events from the past” message in the personal story instances. This would indicate to new players that the personal story clearly takes place well before the living world events.
Ultimately, it would be great if the LW events were added to the story tab at some point, as well as some brief solo instances for people who missed it to “re-enact” the LW events thus far.

I am glad to hear a solution is in the works though, as I have believed from the start of the LW that sealing Orr in time for the sake of the PS closed off a lot of interesting venues for the story to take.

VIVorcha.7853:

There are basically no relationships in the game except for Logan/Jennah (which we barely see) and Faolain/Caithe, and those two other people who have absolutely no depth to their personalities.

Is there something wrong with wanting them to feature straight romances at least occasionally?

In response…

Visteri.3821:

In real life, usual estimates say that about 10% of the population is gay (supposedly about 20% say they’re “not straight,” but let’s be generous and keep it at the minimum number), and I think it’s safe to assume that that percentage would be the same in Tyria. However, the sylvari as a species are not capable of reproduction and view gender as irrelevant when it comes to love, therefore it would make sense if roughly 50% of sylvari pairings were gay.

So let’s make a list of every couple ever mentioned in GW2, as long as we are sure of their genders, and see if those numbers match up. Married or divorced, alive or dead, requited or unrequited (crushes and flirting count too)…all of them are here. At least, all I could find in my research.

The ones marked 1 on the list had their romances mentioned in one or more full cutscenes, the ones marked 2 were mentioned elsewhere in the living or personal story, the ones marked 3 were mentioned in events and hearts, and the ones marked 4 were mentioned in flavor text, NPC chatter out in the world, optional NPC conversations, or out-of-game writings (short stories, etc.).

Sylvari same-sex pairings:
1. Caithe and Faolain
Dagdar and Eladus
3. Cymbel and Nia (Nia says they’re friends, but it seems like they have stronger feelings than that)
4. Roardina and one of the festival-goers

Sylvari hetero pairings:
1. Morrigu and Leurent
Tiachren and Ysvelta
Gairwen and Evart
4. Variella and Hanar
Lintoina and Garrett
Leanuit and Santach
Erisdae and her partner
A citizen and his love in Ronan’s Bower
Two sylvari citizens in the Garden of Night

Non-sylvari same-sex pairings:
2. Marjory and Kasmeer
3. Linnea and a female player character
4. Fronis and her mate
Saldis and her girlfriend
Wjerd and Fibharr
Exiffa and her partner

Non-sylvari hetero pairings:
1. Jennah and Logan
Kazz and Doxa
Tonn and Ceera
Ralena and Vassar
Snarl and Galina
2. Eir and Borje
Braham and Ottilia
Ottilia and Ebbe
Rox and Nonus
Peneloopee and Bloomanoo
Merri and Fel
Lyrica and Ewan
Lyrica and Oswald
Oswald and Zola
Oswald and Henrietta
Oswald and Estrella
Oswald and 4 other women
Fenn and Maisie
Rufus and his wife
Faren and Jasmina
Minister and Lady Wi
Deborah and Beirne
Elli and Zott
Senna and her partner
Caudecus and his wife
Doern and his wife
Forgal and his wife
Citizen that Faren hits on and her husband
Bartender in “Desperate Medicine” and his wife
Uptown Johnny and a female player character
3. Dwayna and Malchor
Cassie and Mepi
Wrelk and Broga
Jaden and Aaron
Remi and Trundle
Famke and Wjerd (unconfirmed)
Pier and Esmet
Levvi and Blingg
Harlow and Dotta
Kalle and Aldis
Eda and her husband
Myr and her husband
Kimber and her husband
Webb and his wife
Gareth and his wife
Traveling noble and her husband
Kevach and a female player character
Linnea and a male player character
4. Eir and Krennak (his dialogue suggests they had something)
Yngvi and Brynhildr
Aggren and Marcela
Gwen and Keiran
Althea and Rurik
Via and Feros
Knut and Gaerta
Bandito and Seraphette
Lord and Lady Marduke
Nellie and Caden
Dugh and Amaybel
Jorge and Bethsha
Diah and Jeb
Russ and Cicely
Welkin and Alicia
Gunther and Ine
Cobiah and Isaye
Tessa and Logan
Citizen in Rurikton and Tessa
Weyandt and at least 4 of the 12-ish people he married, if not all of them
Eliza and her husband
Arlo and his wife
Kol and his “woman”
Lyasa and her husband
Watchful Moon and his wife
Vollym and his wife
Dessa and her boyfriend
Brother-in-law of the citizen in District Promenade and his wife
Citizen who talks to the Priest of Lyssa in DR and the woman he loves
Noble in Ossan Quarter and his wife
Enthusiastically married couple in Ascalon Settlement
Refugee steadholder and her mate (unknown gender but they had children)
Guard formerly of Blue Ice Shining and his/her mate (unknown genders but they had children)
Everyone’s parents

That makes 31% of sylvari relationships and 6% of non-sylvari relationships. So.

Is that enough hetero relationships for ya? Did ya notice the introduction of Rox’s deceased mate? There are hetero relationships around, people just don’t look for them apparently…

Arewn.2368:

The representation of gay relationships in the over all game seems okay/well balanced/appropriately representative, but there’s definitely a huge over representation of homosexual relationships among non-single important/main characters.

Ben.2685:

We can conclude that since the promotion of such relationships is so common within the game, there must be a purpose. It doesn’t reflect the demographics of reality, so it can’t be to appeal to the player.

Many, sadly, do not seem to consider the fact that there would likely be a great, great deal many more visible non-heterosexual relationships in real life if such relationships weren’t so often shunned and, sometimes, downright dangerous, in many parts of the world.

Tyria does not have that. The real world is not a good comparison.

And as it turned out while I was typing this, someone did the math and there really aren’t that many. I would actually expect more, in a setting like Tyria, but I’m pleased with what there is. I strongly suspect the relationships stand out due to people being used to only seeing heterosexual relationships in media.

I’m glad for these representations, especially in an AAA game.

As for Marjory and Kasmeer being fanservice, I don’t see it. They’re two attractive people in a relationship. There are plenty of attractive people in relationships in this game. Logan’s certainly not hideous, and neither is Faren, and no one’s calling his speedo escapades fanservice, either. I suppose just because they’re both lesbians, and not particularly kitten the eyes? If that’s the case, I’ve not yet seen anyone call Faolain and Caithe fanservice. Maybe because Marjory and Kasmeer are more, uh.. conventionally attractive? By sheer virtue of being human, I suppose. I don’t know. I don’t really get it, no matter how I try to reason it out.
Trust me, heterosexual couples definitely do have the potential to be fanservicey, but no one’s said any of those were pandering to the audience.

If you want to talk about fanservice, have a gander over at some of the female armours that bare enormous swathes of flesh vs. the male counterparts to those specific armors that do not.

Not counting Faren’s aforementioned beachwear. That’s only available to him, unfortunately for my sense of humor. If there are people crying out in anguish about lesbians and how lore-breaking Quaggan backpacks are, I’d love to see what’d happen if that thing saw an armor skin release.

Narcemus.1348:

-snip-

I think it’s worth noting prominence there. Of the relationships in the game, Marjory and Kasmeer’s is possibly only second to Logan and Jennahs (a relationship which has great story significance) when it comes to screen time. The only other romantic pairing I think is as prominent as the previous two I mentioned would be Caithe and Faolain (another relationship of great story significance).

We have the devs referring to the Iconics (Destiny’s Edge) and the Biconics (the Living Story cast) and they are getting the most screen time in the story. To my knowledge there are three current relationships of those two groups, Logan and Jennah, Caithe and Faolain, and Marjory and Kasmeer. Sure there might be several heterosexual romantic pairs in Tyria, but prominence favours the same sex pairs.

I don’t really want more prominent heterosexual romantic relationships to balance it, I’m honestly tired of prominent romantic relationships in Tyria period. I’d rather hear about Divinity’s Reach politics, corruption in the Ministry, Braham chasing his legend, Rox working with other charr in the field. If Trahearne got a random sylvari girlfriend and she’s not adding anything to the story, do we really want to take time away from the Pact or the cleansing of Orr to watch them have a picnic or grow flowers? Can you imagine going through Orr and hearing Trahearne go on and on about his girlfriend? Or finish a mission and all his idle dialogue is about his girlfriend?

Shiren.9532:

If Trahearne got a random sylvari girlfriend and she’s not adding anything to the story, do we really want to take time away from the Pact or the cleansing of Orr to watch them have a picnic or grow flowers? Can you imagine going through Orr and hearing Trahearne go on and on about his girlfriend? Or finish a mission and all his idle dialogue is about his girlfriend?

This won’t end well…

Seriously though, I don’t personally think any of the major romances detract from the storyline in the way that this Trahearne example would. I believe that if properly included and executed they could add rather than subtract from the depth of story.

I think the debate about frequency and demographics is beside the point. The issue with same sex couples isn’t about distribution, but approval. For someone who doesn’t approve, the unsatisfactory number is 1. It doesn’t matter how many couples there are IRL.

But, if you want to get into the specific numbers, those vary widely on which study you look at. The Kinsey institute is where that 10% figure comes form, which is widely misinterpreted. That 10% consists of everyone who is not a 0 on the kinsey scale, and arguably nobody below 4 is homosexual going by that standard. A couple of random samples I’ve read about (polled about 5000 people) would find anywhere from 120 to 150 self-identifying homosexuals (or 4 and above on the kinsey scale), which puts the number somewhere between 2.5% to 3.5% of the population.

While you can talk about people not admitting to homosexuality, you can also about people misrepresenting homosexuality. The Kinsey scale isn’t well known, so someone who is a 1 or a 2 might think themselves fully homosexual, largely because they think the subject is black and white. Many will argue that anything other than 0 on the Kinsey scale is fully homosexual, and classify that one guy who had an experience once or twice years ago as a homosexual. There is also the shifting distribution between ages, with college age having the highest percentage of homosexuals per population, which drops off in later years. Then there’s the issue of self-identified bisexuals, and how to consider them.

Then there’s also the type of homosexuality to talk about. There are many: some who are only physically attracted but still exhibit emotional heterosexual attractions, then vice versa of that situation. Many people will have “flings” with same sex partners while still married to their heteo partner, and not consider themselves homosexual despite how an outside observer might classify them. Then there are individuals that are characterized only by a lack of affinity for the opposite gender, then there are people with strong aversions to the opposite gender, such as those who suffered abuse at a young age and find an emotional safety and comfort in same-sex relationships. Many of these people can be classified not as having a homosexual attraction, but an aversion based default in their lives. Here, the kinsey scale wouldn’t even properly apply, since sex/sexuality is multidimensional.

The hard part about talking distribution is that there is no definite definition for what constitutes homosexuality, and there is no way to properly sample or test it. I can say that 100% of the worlds population is homosexual, and there is no way to prove that statement wrong. Just cite some results of some Penile Plethysmograph tests, give generic hiding or misrepresentation statements, and make the definition of homosexuality wide enough, and it can envelope everyone. I’d argue that distributions IRL are an aside of the issue as well.

The thing with fanservice is… well… this is how many players (including me) discovered Lady Kasmeer:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/71543/gw032.jpg

This is her second appearance in game that I can cite, with the first only being a cutsene with Marjory. Lord Faren appeared in a speedo, but he had a role in the human personal story (wealth starting path) since launch, and is widely recognized as a more comical character.

Marjory voice, IMO at least, is overly sensual. She could read the phone book and keep men interested. So, you take someone with an overly sensual voice, and someone who’s big appearance involved wearing Tyria’s only bikini, and put them together.

This complicates things, since many people don’t like that lesbian relationships are being used for fanservice, regardless of their approval of same-sex relationships in general. Some find it patronizing to men, some find it insulting to the integrity of homosexuals.

I don’t think “overly sensual” is what they were going for with Jory’s voice. She’s meant to sound like an old timey detective because she is a parody of Sherlock Holmes….

As to Kasmeer’s initial appearance being in a bikini – they were on a beach, the plot was about the Consortium trying to set up a resort blah blah blah, so I don’t think it was that unreasonable. If you want to argue that a woman in a bikini is fan service then I strongly suggest you don’t ever go to a beach xD.

Off-hand, I can’t think of any fanservice that didn’t have some plot behind it. I’ve watched about a million coming of age anime to know that there are about a million plot-related reasons to go to the beach or walk around in frilly lingerie.

And yes, I consider it fanservice, just look at the wiki’s example photo.

I’m not sure Marjory is a parody of Sherlock Holmes, but Film Noir. The introductory cinematic looks almost exactly like the standard black and white detective film opening sequence. Old noir films were made in a more highly conservative time, and elucidating the sexuality of the female leads (these were, after all, a male fantasy), they had to speak it. Marjory fits the part perfectly, except instead of being the client Jory is the gumshoe herself.

Also I can’t stop thinking about this line by Grouch Marx.

She’s a parody of lots of things.

Also I wouldn’t go bringing anime into this. Anime, and Japanese popular culture in general, operates on a very different level to Western popular culture. If this were Tera, or Aion or Blade and Soul then I would let you – but it isn’t. This is not a game where people run around pretty much nekkid and are insanely ill-proportioned. A woman in a bikini on a beach does not fan-service make – especially when it fits into the plot. If it were the other way around, where the plot existed purely to show her in the bikini then it would be a fan-service. But it’s not.

Just on a side note, that may be the most accurate and detailed post I’ve ever seen about the topic of homosexuality, Blood Red Arachnid, and my compliments. I think you’ve done an excellent job in explaining just how complex the subject matter is, and how difficult it is to slap a number on it.

I also agree in regards to the fan-service. That was one of the reasons I felt this relationship was a bit fan servicy.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I don’t think “overly sensual” is what they were going for with Jory’s voice. She’s meant to sound like an old timey detective because she is a parody of Sherlock Holmes….

As to Kasmeer’s initial appearance being in a bikini – they were on a beach, the plot was about the Consortium trying to set up a resort blah blah blah, so I don’t think it was that unreasonable. If you want to argue that a woman in a bikini is fan service then I strongly suggest you don’t ever go to a beach xD.

What this guy/girl said. Truly, I see lots of fan-service on the beach every year. I don’t know how I can take it! :P Better cover up on the beach ladies.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Just on a side note, that may be the most accurate and detailed post I’ve ever seen about the topic of homosexuality, Blood Red Arachnid, and my compliments. I think you’ve done an excellent job in explaining just how complex the subject matter is, and how difficult it is to slap a number on it.

I also agree in regards to the fan-service. That was one of the reasons I felt this relationship was a bit fan servicy.

Honestly, it didn’t feel like “fanservice” to me. I’m not saying it doesn’t serve that for the people who can get happy with “hur hur, two girls who like each other”, but then . . fanservice is such a weird subjective perception it’s easy to say anything is fanservice.

There’s a lot of it in this game, and a significant amount not being sexual in nature. Ho-ho-Tron? Fanservice and they blatantly admitted they worked with that NPC because fans liked it. If Braham suddenly professes a desire for ham? That’s fanservice.
The fight with the Demagogue in Aurora’s Remains. That’s fanservice.

That said, Jory/Kas? It strikes more notes than “hur hur nekkid ladies doin it” so I don’t see it primarily as fanservice so it registers as “not fanservice” to me. It registers as “character work”. Take it as you will, but . . .

In general to the people here. Please stop trying to shoehorn things into only one interpretation, and/or take one interpretation to nullify any others because it exists. I can interpret, with enough leeway, anything to be sexual.

Anything.

I do want to note that in my post, I went out of my way, repeatedly, to specify non-heterosexual when discussing possible percentages; my post does not contain the word “homosexual” once in that context, as that is not specifically what I was talking about. I was talking about the entire non-heteronormative rainbow. Moving on.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anything.

I almost want to ask..

Egon Vidar.9125:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anything.

I almost want to ask..

It’s the Internet. I’m just going to cite “Rule 34” . . . and might as well cite “Rule 35” also.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If Braham suddenly professes a desire for ham? That’s fanservice.

I think you mean… Hamservice.

Alice.8694:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If Braham suddenly professes a desire for ham? That’s fanservice.

I think you mean… Hamservice.

Well, whatever it is, it’s making me hungry.

Alice.8694:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If Braham suddenly professes a desire for ham? That’s fanservice.

I think you mean… Hamservice.

Coming off Tobias’ comment above, I had the most awkward mental image… XD

On a slightly-off topic note, I’m calling Rytlock and Rox now. During Origions of Madness instance, Rytlock’s tone changed rather drastically to Rox at the end.

My guess is a Rytlock-Rox-Bhram love triangle.

Nike.2631:

Alice.8694:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If Braham suddenly professes a desire for ham? That’s fanservice.

I think you mean… Hamservice.

Well, whatever it is, it’s making me hungry.

Aye, Aye Capt. Crunch!

Pirlipat.2479:

I haven’t read the entire thread but I just wanted to say that I like this Kasmeer-Majory relationship, because it’s just a normal drama-free relationship of normal people.

Drama free is not normal.

While I see what you’re getting at, I think the correct version is “Some occasional tension is normal. Drama, especially unresolved drama, is not.”

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On a slightly-off topic note, I’m calling Rytlock and Rox now. During Origions of Madness instance, Rytlock’s tone changed rather drastically to Rox at the end.

My guess is a Rytlock-Rox-Bhram love triangle.

If you believe the validity of certain datamined dialogues, Rox and Rytlock are half siblings that share the same mother.

That…would actually explain a hell of a lot.

I’ll just drop this here!

Any news on when we might be able to further the personnel story?
Please say we don’t have to wait another year for Cantha/Elona to be opened to have more “non-living world” story content. not that I don’t like it, It’s just nice to have a solid story line like in GW1

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

So what about that… “disney princess” scene, confirmed to go past negotiations?

Well we had a kiss and this topic rocketed right back out of the dump.

Just as planned.

I would really enjoy it if GW2 featured a marriage and romance system between characters and NPCs or characters and characters (like in some other single player games and MMORPG games we can easily google, where characters can get married.)

I would enjoy some straight romance and possibility to roleplay, and maybe have dignity/ferocity/charm actually do something and affect how npcs treat you from a romantic standpoint.

That being said, I still did not complete the personal storyline yet, but I’m close, just past the charr tanks, and I find the plotline so far to be somewhat feminist oriented, with Destiny’s Edge being lead by a woman and the number of females in the group being more than the males. There was another lesbian sylvari couple in the plot, among the scouting group. One of the girls died, and the other was lamenting the loss. Which makes me wonder if all sylvari are conceived to be homosexual? And mostly the exposition of sexuality if focused on female characters, where as the male characters seem to be mostly written as either roudy and happy-go-lucky types or the Trehearne/Tybalt/Logan types – responsible for everything and tormented by doubts. The three of them are essentially the same character, and none of them act like problem-solvers.

Not to mention the human city is ruled by a Queen – another female of authority. And the sylvari avatar of the Tree is a female entity.

Just a personal opinion, but I think the male side of the house could use some empowered characters soon.

Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Konrad Knox.5162:

I would really enjoy it if GW2 featured a marriage and romance system between characters and NPCs or characters and characters (like in some other single player games and MMORPG games we can easily google, where characters can get married.)

I would enjoy some straight romance and possibility to roleplay, and maybe have dignity/ferocity/charm actually do something and affect how npcs treat you from a romantic standpoint.

That being said, I still did not complete the personal storyline yet, but I’m close, just past the charr tanks, and I find the plotline so far to be somewhat feminist oriented, with Destiny’s Edge being lead by a woman and the number of females in the group being more than the males. There was another lesbian sylvari couple in the plot, among the scouting group. One of the girls died, and the other was lamenting the loss. Which makes me wonder if all sylvari are conceived to be homosexual? And mostly the exposition of sexuality if focused on female characters, where as the male characters seem to be mostly written as either roudy and happy-go-lucky types or the Trehearne/Tybalt/Logan types – responsible for everything and tormented by doubts. The three of them are essentially the same character, and none of them act like problem-solvers.

Not to mention the human city is ruled by a Queen – another female of authority. And the sylvari avatar of the Tree is a female entity.

Just a personal opinion, but I think the male side of the house could use some empowered characters soon.

Correct me if I’m wrong though.

So if you have a female lead suddenly its a “feminist statement” ? Sorry…what? Do people care that much who’s in charge, as long as the characters are good, should it matter? You’ll find that in most video games and other forms of media the leads and majority of characters are male. I don’t see anybody complaining about that, or actually the “lack” of female characters, as long as you have one good female character among the male lot. I never have problems investing myself in stories where most characters are male. Look at LoTR for example. We have it other way around in GW2 and somehow that gets some people to demand “equality” :P

And about Traherne or Tybalt or any other DE character. All of them are tormented by doubts and their weaknesses. Eir has issues with her son and with Zojja, for failing as a leader, Caithe has the whole Faolain angst thing going on, Zojja snarks at Eir whenever they come across (but you will see that change in the final story instance you do).

In short, none of these characters are perfect. They all have their faults and flaws, and Tybalt, considered by many the best character so far, just happens to be a guy. And he’s a kitten hero!

I did not participate in this discussion at all. However, from what I read, this thread is not going anywhere. I’m surprised that it did not get closed yet. I’m against anything that leads to social stigma.

I am totally disappointed by the lack of Hamservice in this update.

Eh, people are focusing on the relationship/orientation part…

There are a lot of things that obviously can’t be determined as this is a limited story with almost no background on the characters ranging from how they lived, where they have lived, how did they environment affect them growing up, etc. etc. and just stuff we won’t ever know.
And FYI it’s inter*species* romance between Rox and Braham (if there even is anything). They aren’t genetically similar if you couldn’t tell.
And about race? Neither Norn, Charr, Sylvari, Asura or any other of the “races” are “human” though they are humanoids.

I’ll be honest, I knew they were a thing, but I did not expect that cutscene

CharrGirl.7896:

So if you have a female lead suddenly its a “feminist statement” ? Sorry…what? Do people care that much who’s in charge, as long as the characters are good, should it matter? You’ll find that in most video games and other forms of media the leads and majority of characters are male. I don’t see anybody complaining about that, or actually the “lack” of female characters, as long as you have one good female character among the male lot. I never have problems investing myself in stories where most characters are male. Look at LoTR for example. We have it other way around in GW2 and somehow that gets some people to demand “equality” :P

And about Traherne or Tybalt or any other DE character. All of them are tormented by doubts and their weaknesses. Eir has issues with her son and with Zojja, for failing as a leader, Caithe has the whole Faolain angst thing going on, Zojja snarks at Eir whenever they come across (but you will see that change in the final story instance you do).

In short, none of these characters are perfect. They all have their faults and flaws, and Tybalt, considered by many the best character so far, just happens to be a guy. And he’s a kitten hero!

You know, now that I have read this, I don’t feel so bad. I guess characters of both genders are tormented and depressed. Grass is greener on the other side, heh.

Thanks for clarification, you’re right. I did not play LOTR, and mostly played MMOs where gender was superficial and had no meaning, or roleplaying based RPGs where you actually had to play out your character’s gender.

But perhaps i never considered playing the game from a girl’s perspective. It’s just from a boy’s perspective it’s so depressing and not empowering so far, that I felt like the other side has it better.

Perhaps, it’s the story choices I chose. My character just felt like he is not the kitten I imagined, but rather a mama’s boy. Every figure of authority for him was a woman, until Trehearne. First he is pampered by Petra, then gets outdrunk by Maddie, then bossed around by Jenna, then the Countess, then i joined the order of whisperers, whose Grandmaster also turned out to be a woman, and I was like, oh goodness! Then we meet up with Traehearne, and he has no idea what to do about Orr, so we go meet some spirit in a spirit world, and lo and behold, again, it’s a woman, telling us lost boys what to do.
That’s kinda how it felt, the constant mommying.

And no, I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad for everyone. Some people may like it. I just find it annoying. I can only imagine what it’s like for a girl to play male-dominant games. And i feel sorry for that too.

Konrad Knox.5162:

And no, I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad for everyone. Some people may like it. I just find it annoying. I can only imagine what it’s like for a girl to play male-dominant games. And i feel sorry for that too.

Don’t be sorry.

As a woman who wandered into the gaming scene more or less by accident, I can say that as long as a character is well-drawn, things like gender and sexual orientation don’t matter a bit to me. I just get annoyed when people become fixated on such things to the exclusion of everything else, such as is happening now…again. A number of very unsettling plot points have been revealed, but the majority of GW2 posts I’m seeing on Twitter are all “Jory and Kas kissed OMG SQUEEEE!!!”

Ya see those teeth on that newly awakened dragon, folks? He doesn’t care who’s kissing, he’s not happy. Let’s move on, shall we?

I agree somewhat. Attractive lesbians sell games and the average gamer is a straight male, sooo it can come off as fan service-y. However I do think they did a fair job of making their romance feel genuine. That said what I really want is a human gay male romance where neither party is a stereotype. I just posted about it in this same forum. I hesitate to call lesbian characters completely fan service. Lesbians deserve representation too. But gay males will always be more ‘edgy’ in the gaming world and I want to see Anet deal with that.

I think it’s disgusting.

A mesmer and a necromancer? It’s not natural.
Why couldn’t it be a necromancer and a necromancer?

Or in your case a Warrior(Mad King Thorn) and a Necromancer(yourself).

My husband is not a warrior. He uses jokes as weapons. :P

We all know this :P

I personally slew his “Word of Madness” spewing rival :P

A rival who was a Mesmer I might add!

Konrad Knox.5162:

I would really enjoy it if GW2 featured a marriage and romance system between characters and NPCs or characters and characters (like in some other single player games and MMORPG games we can easily google, where characters can get married.)

I would enjoy some straight romance and possibility to roleplay, and maybe have dignity/ferocity/charm actually do something and affect how npcs treat you from a romantic standpoint.

That being said, I still did not complete the personal storyline yet, but I’m close, just past the charr tanks, and I find the plotline so far to be somewhat feminist oriented, with Destiny’s Edge being lead by a woman and the number of females in the group being more than the males. There was another lesbian sylvari couple in the plot, among the scouting group. One of the girls died, and the other was lamenting the loss. Which makes me wonder if all sylvari are conceived to be homosexual? And mostly the exposition of sexuality if focused on female characters, where as the male characters seem to be mostly written as either roudy and happy-go-lucky types or the Trehearne/Tybalt/Logan types – responsible for everything and tormented by doubts. The three of them are essentially the same character, and none of them act like problem-solvers.

Not to mention the human city is ruled by a Queen – another female of authority. And the sylvari avatar of the Tree is a female entity.

Just a personal opinion, but I think the male side of the house could use some empowered characters soon.

Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Are you kidding me? Literally every other game ever is full of male-dominant power fantasies. It still isn’t enough for you, though? Like when there’s finally a game that has many female characters (but also still many male ones) in positions of power and authority, then uh oh, can’t be letting the world not completely revolve around men for once.

I know this word sets off a lot of alarms in people’s heads, but sheesh, talk about not recognizing your privilege. If “too much feminism” means “men and women are more or less equals in this game” then I’m a proud feminist. Bring on more feminism, anet.

Speaking of, why does the idea of women “bossing you around” upset you so, but men bossing you around doesn’t? Women shouldn’t be allowed to outrank you? You always have to be dominant over them? Please.

If you want “male empowerment,” all you have to do is go and play literally any other game.

As for Marjory/Kasmeer, well, let’s just say that most of these discussions wouldn’t even be happening if it weren’t between two women. Just because they’re both attractive women doesn’t mean they’re “fan-service” or “forced,” sheesh. Couples occur in real life, I dunno why some people are so afraid of seeing romance in their games. Particularly healthy, non-abusive romances. Just because caithe and faolain are troubled and emo doesn’t make it better or more realistic writing.

Dubbleyew.1029:

Konrad Knox.5162:

I would really enjoy it if GW2 featured a marriage and romance system between characters and NPCs or characters and characters (like in some other single player games and MMORPG games we can easily google, where characters can get married.)

I would enjoy some straight romance and possibility to roleplay, and maybe have dignity/ferocity/charm actually do something and affect how npcs treat you from a romantic standpoint.

That being said, I still did not complete the personal storyline yet, but I’m close, just past the charr tanks, and I find the plotline so far to be somewhat feminist oriented, with Destiny’s Edge being lead by a woman and the number of females in the group being more than the males. There was another lesbian sylvari couple in the plot, among the scouting group. One of the girls died, and the other was lamenting the loss. Which makes me wonder if all sylvari are conceived to be homosexual? And mostly the exposition of sexuality if focused on female characters, where as the male characters seem to be mostly written as either roudy and happy-go-lucky types or the Trehearne/Tybalt/Logan types – responsible for everything and tormented by doubts. The three of them are essentially the same character, and none of them act like problem-solvers.

Not to mention the human city is ruled by a Queen – another female of authority. And the sylvari avatar of the Tree is a female entity.

Just a personal opinion, but I think the male side of the house could use some empowered characters soon.

Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Are you kidding me? Literally every other game ever is full of male-dominant power fantasies. It still isn’t enough for you, though? Like when there’s finally a game that has many female characters (but also still many male ones) in positions of power and authority, then uh oh, can’t be letting the world not completely revolve around men for once.

I know this word sets off a lot of alarms in people’s heads, but sheesh, talk about not recognizing your privilege. If “too much feminism” means “men and women are more or less equals in this game” then I’m a proud feminist. Bring on more feminism, anet.

Speaking of, why does the idea of women “bossing you around” upset you so, but men bossing you around doesn’t? Women shouldn’t be allowed to outrank you? You always have to be dominant over them? Please.

If you want “male empowerment,” all you have to do is go and play literally any other game.

As for Marjory/Kasmeer, well, let’s just say that most of these discussions wouldn’t even be happening if it weren’t between two women. Just because they’re both attractive women doesn’t mean they’re “fan-service” or “forced,” sheesh. Couples occur in real life, I dunno why some people are so afraid of seeing romance in their games. Particularly healthy, non-abusive romances. Just because caithe and faolain are troubled and emo doesn’t make it better or more realistic writing.

The problem I had with the personal story is not the fact that it’s full of strong female characters.

It’s that most characters (from both sexes) are boring. Whole personal story is a huge disappointment. Near to no freedom of choice, near to no character building (that personality indicator is as useful as a glory boosters will be 18th March), with a plain and predictable story with plain and predictable character deaths after Claw Island which I didn’t really give a crap about (also because most of the time it feels like those people are just killing themselves for no reason other than boredom).

I just hope Anet is not counting on using the “Oh, we are so progressive, and if you don’t like the story you are a caveman” card by using same gender romances and putting more female characters around without actually caring for what they say.

Dubbleyew.1029:

Are you kidding me? Literally every other game ever is full of male-dominant power fantasies. It still isn’t enough for you, though?
…
If you want “male empowerment,” all you have to do is go and play literally any other game.

I’m not playing any other game, I’m playing this one. My post is not so much about me (I’m a married 30 year old with children), as it is about kids who may play the game and learn to assume subservient roles. I believe in equal empowerment.

As far as outranking goes, a 50/50 ratio would count as equal. Not a 5 / 1.

But redslion actually pinpoints the issue better. Both genders of characters lack empowerment. Good point on deaths too. Claw Island was like… okay, why does Tybalt have to go in solo and die? Why can’t we all, you know, just close the gates and fall back to the city? Why does the Lionguard commander keep telling his people to not retreat or send warnings? Realistic deaths would show Lionguard running for their lives and getting snatched by the beast. But no, they just say “yes, sir!” and fight to the death with no reason whatsoever.

Lord Krall, for many of us it’s not the homosexuality that’s objectionable, but the way it’s being worked into the game’s storyline. It feels very much like a social agenda that’s being shoehorned into a work of entertainment it doesn’t truly belong in. My ideas about the reasons this material is being introduced is not something I’m going to get into…it would take too long, and they’re suspicions only with no evidence to back ’em up. I believe Anet should stop right here while the characters in question are still likable (Marjory is awesome, not argument here!) and relevant to the storyline.

As I said earlier, there are bigger things to concern ourselves with in the story.

EDIT: I think your post I was responding to got zapped, but you’ll understand.

First cut-scene kiss in the game, and we get this. sigh I am rather disappointed. No matter, I’ll keep playing, hoping the devs remember that the individuals who like this aspect are not the only people who play this game. There are good, honest, paying customers who don’t find this favorable. I’ll just have my finger on the “skip cut-scene” button in the near future and keep praying they try telling a romance within a story I can enjoy witnessing too.

Moving on, thank goodness I can forget about all this with the next update.

bullyrook.2165:

First cut-scene kiss in the game, and we get this. sigh I am rather disappointed.

Man, so am I, all this crap being thrown about the-

No matter, I’ll keep playing, hoping the devs remember that the individuals who like this aspect are not the only people who play this game. There are good, honest, paying customers who don’t find this favorable. I’ll just have my finger on the “skip cut-scene” button in the near future and keep praying they try telling a romance within a story I can enjoy witnessing too.

Moving on, thank goodness I can forget about all this with the next update.

. . . nevermind.

Tanith.5264:

Lord Krall, for many of us it’s not the homosexuality that’s objectionable, but the way it’s being worked into the game’s storyline. It feels very much like a social agenda that’s being shoehorned into a work of entertainment it doesn’t truly belong in.

It’s never regarded as pushing a “social agenda” when it’s a straight romance.

bullyrook.2165:

First cut-scene kiss in the game, and we get this. sigh I am rather disappointed. No matter, I’ll keep playing, hoping the devs remember that the individuals who like this aspect are not the only people who play this game. There are good, honest, paying customers who don’t find this favorable. I’ll just have my finger on the “skip cut-scene” button in the near future and keep praying they try telling a romance within a story I can enjoy witnessing too.

There is no such thing as a universally-appealing romance. Why should they tailor it to the “good, honest, paying customers” who like romance #1, but not the equally good, honest, paying customers who like romance #2?