Guild Wars 2

videoboy.4162:

the only problem I had with their kiss, was that it looked oddly animated.

I agree with this. It looked wonky, but I could see that the animators did their best.

Also, at least they were kissing instead of eating each other’s faces like I remember people doing while I was still in high school.

Its actually very funny. All I did was express a point of view and the vultures swooped in from their nests. I didn’t insult anyone, I didn’t call anyone names. I merely expressed that I didn’t enjoy the story as it was being presented. So many are unable to understand, thinking that they know everything and that they are right in all their philosophies to the point that they can call individuals like myself “stupid” or “unevolved” without a shred of guilt. I have reasons for believing what I believe.

What I had always liked about the Sylvari was I felt they were (now past-tense) the Devs way of giving 1/5 of the entire game to individuals of that persuasion. I believe that everyone has the right to do as they please, as long as they don’t make it my business. The only problem I have with that kiss, is that I cannot agree with it. At that point, the devs alienated many people from the story. I cannot cheer, and it is wrong to expect me to. I respect your view points, will you respect mine?

Really depressing to see an intellectual controversy be reduced by insults.

I am frustrated with the way they portrayed lesbians and the fact that there aren’t any non-homosexual relationships just makes it worse. The story so far gives off a glow of, ‘how can we make this more controversial to the mainstream audience’ and also seems to emphasize the fact that Arenanet is biased against non-homosexuals. We get it, your gay, we don’t really care and we don’t need to see your fantasies on our screens. They have the right to putt whatever they want up there, but the fact that they most notably putt up lipstick lesbians made it hard to appreciate their love story in the first place. Let alone the fact that I didn’t give 2 shakes of a broken compass about Marjary and her companion at all. That isn’t a pair of any lesbians I’ve ever met and not using characters from the story made the whole living world relationship pointless. It was poorly structured and although their kiss at the end could have been a great aspect of the story, I feel that the poorly done animation on the part of Marjory’s underling made it difficult to believe she even cared. Someone in the animation and story departments has been watching too much television.

furryangel.4623:

I am frustrated with the way they portrayed lesbians and the fact that there aren’t any non-homosexual relationships just makes it worse. The story so far gives off a glow of, ‘how can we make this more controversial to the mainstream audience’ and also seems to emphasize the fact that Arenanet is biased against non-homosexuals. We get it, your gay, we don’t really care and we don’t need to see your fantasies on our screens. They have the right to putt whatever they want up there, but the fact that they most notably putt up lipstick lesbians made it hard to appreciate their love story in the first place. Let alone the fact that I didn’t give 2 shakes of a broken compass about Marjary and her companion at all. That isn’t a pair of any lesbians I’ve ever met and not using characters from the story made the whole living world relationship pointless. It was poorly structured and although their kiss at the end could have been a great aspect of the story, I feel that the poorly done animation on the part of Marjory’s underling made it difficult to believe she even cared. Someone in the animation and story departments has been watching too much television.

The following list was made by another poster, I believe somewhere in this very thread. It proves how very wrong you are to assume there are no Heterosexual couples and that they are, in fact, the majority in the game, with lesbian couples being the second most numerous (though having maybe 5 or 6 couples total to the long list of hetero couples).

Enjoy.

Sousuke.7268:

The simple fact that mods have not locked this hatefilled charade of homophobia is disturbing to say the least.

The only post in this topic so far that seems hate-filled, seems to be this one. ^

I think a lot of players have expressed in very respectful and reasonable ways, why they felt the kiss scene felt forced and out of place. I do not believe they deserve to have homophobic labels pasted on their foreheads for expressing that opinion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sousuke.7268:

The simple fact that mods have not locked this hatefilled charade of homophobia is disturbing to say the least.

The only post in this topic so far that seems hate-filled, seems to be this one. ^

I think a lot of players have expressed in very respectful and reasonable ways, why they felt the kiss scene felt forced and out of place. I do not believe they deserve to have homophobic labels pasted on their foreheads for expressing that opinion.

I think that’s fair to say.

The thread at this point has wandered somewhat to the quality/relevance of the romance writing more so than the fact that the two characters in question are the same sex. Ultimately that’s gonna come down to taste, though, so I do wonder where the discussion can progress from here.

People react differently to grief/shock/alarm so there’s only so much we can say about what a person would “really” do in such a situation. I personally didn’t find the kiss that contrived as it seemed more sudden relief than anything.

The only gripe I had at the end of it was that the attention lavished on animating Marjory and Kasmeer’s faces made the charr facial animations seem woefully inadequate. Rox did a lot of jaw flapping while staring into vacant space and it was kinda offputting by comparison xP

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes. They. Are.

What happened here is the same as you getting “The Big Kiss” in a movie between two people of different genders. With moderately less fanfare (no swelling music in the soundtrack, no orbiting camera and slow clap…).

I respectfully disagree. It felt to me like they were going for “the money shot”. As if everything had been leading up to that kiss. It was almost as if the writers felt the need to prove that they really are a romantic couple, and that yes, they’re not afraid to show it.

That’s why to me it felt forced and heavy handed. I don’t mind their decision to include it, and I think the intention is good. But it seems to me that the writers are still struggling with how to handle the concept of homosexual relationships in a videogame.

When ever videogame writers tackle these sorts of topics, it often feel like they are struggling to find a sheet of paper, and then knock over the vial of ink by accident.

Ehh. I find it’s not limited to homosexual relationships. There are simply not enough really good romances to overturn the tons of bad ones which crop up. For every example which can be thrown out, there’s many . . . many . . . more which are just painful.

(. . . we still have to get more good ones to balance out Squall/Riona/Seifer. )

I mean, it’s the same within the franchise here. Gwen/Keiran was well-done for the most part, and Koss/Melonni was about the same . . . then again, Cynn/Mhenlo . . .

bullyrook.2165:

I believe that everyone has the right to do as they please, as long as they don’t make it my business. The only problem I have with that kiss, is that I cannot agree with it. At that point, the devs alienated many people from the story. I cannot cheer, and it is wrong to expect me to. I respect your view points, will you respect mine?

And how do you think we homosexuals feel being constantly barraged by media that is obsessive with heterosexual romance? Well at first, a bit like you actually… Closely followed by the realisation that you’ll have to work hard to find stories with a relationship sub-plot that fits your sexual affinity.

So please forgive others for their quick and harsh retorts when they take you the wrong way. It’s just that they find your complaints a little ironic considering the reversal of roles here. Perhaps now that you understand how we feel when every single shoe-horned-in-to-appease-the-hetero-masses cliche couple dramatically kiss on screen. You could instead be a little more understanding and welcoming of change and a different perspective. Because you realize, through your own experience here that it is something we generally have to experience constantly in media. And this one occurrence here isn’t going to chase away or prevent the constant and countless hetero-focused media out there from being produced.

I don’t really care about lesbian relationship, but I feel that the kiss didn’t really need to be there. Replace Marjory with another male character(Not Faren) that we barely know. I would have the same reaction.

If there is going to be a love story, the writers need to go deeper within their relationship. We need character development.

I disprove.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sousuke.7268:

The simple fact that mods have not locked this hatefilled charade of homophobia is disturbing to say the least.

The only post in this topic so far that seems hate-filled, seems to be this one. ^

I think a lot of players have expressed in very respectful and reasonable ways, why they felt the kiss scene felt forced and out of place. I do not believe they deserve to have homophobic labels pasted on their foreheads for expressing that opinion.

By " a lot" of people you mean the vocal minority which probably consists of 10% player base or even less? And even less then that in fact, since only a few replied to this thread? I’m no expert. If you want to run full statistics you’d need to survey every single player out there and we’ll see how it goes lol.

I really like most of your posts truly, and admire em. But. You’ve been consistently repeating the same thing in this and every other thread about Kas and Jory how it’s forced, out of place, etc etc. I know that some people share your views. I don’t – and that’s fine. Plus , you are extremely fixated on one thing and choose to ignore the other side.

What’s becoming tiresome is this repetitiveness. In the end what are you, and other people who don’t like it going to do? Complain about this relationship till one of them dies? Complain every single time they get screen time? Does a mere 2 second kiss of relief really deserve this much attention?

We have a dragon on the loose people!

There is simply no end to this, but I would implore you that you just stop and think for a second, what this means to people who are like them, and who ever so rarely get to be in the spotlight.

Let there be positive feedback for once. I can only imagine how homosexuals feel about this negativity, after literally everything that is hetero being forced down their throats, to actively discuss in a thread with so much bashing

runeblade.7514:

I don’t really care about lesbian relationship, but I feel that the kiss didn’t really need to be there. Replace Marjory with another male character(Not Faren) that we barely know. I would have the same reaction.

If there is going to be a love story, the writers need to go deeper within their relationship. We need character development.

I disprove.

I think another valid issue is how temporary the Living Story content is. If you don’t follow along with it, you miss out on things like the developing relationship of Kasmeer and Marjory, so something like this comes off as fanservice or, ‘Being progressive for the sake of being progressive.’ Granted, that’s more of a complaint with Living Story.

Either a relationship like Kasmeer and Marjory’s needs to have a more permanent and available development for a character to progress through, or there needs to be a way to replay Living Story content/scenes/dialogue with a suggested chronological order.

Vexander.9850:

Either a relationship like Kasmeer and Marjory’s needs to have a more permanent and available development for a character to progress through, or there needs to be a way to replay Living Story content/scenes/dialogue with a suggested chronological order.

Eh, I say it’d be almost enough if it was enough the sign outside the house wasn’t penciled in anymore . . . and they continue to show up as a team/pair. It’s not really necessary to beat us over the head with them having “completed negotiations” on their boundaries. What is necessary is showing they weren’t just shoved off camera and left behind, but continue to exist and act unless there’s compelling reason not to act. Such as for one’s health or concerns closer to home than . . . oh, chasing an Elder Dragon’s trail into Maguuma.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vexander.9850:

Either a relationship like Kasmeer and Marjory’s needs to have a more permanent and available development for a character to progress through, or there needs to be a way to replay Living Story content/scenes/dialogue with a suggested chronological order.

Eh, I say it’d be almost enough if it was enough the sign outside the house wasn’t penciled in anymore . . . and they continue to show up as a team/pair. It’s not really necessary to beat us over the head with them having “completed negotiations” on their boundaries. What is necessary is showing they weren’t just shoved off camera and left behind, but continue to exist and act unless there’s compelling reason not to act. Such as for one’s health or concerns closer to home than . . . oh, chasing an Elder Dragon’s trail into Maguuma.

That’s a fair point. I personally hope they get some well deserved rest after this and play a minor role for the second season of the Living Story. Their home should be open and they should have dialogue options for the events of the next Living Story season, to give opinions, and after Marjory has recovered from her injuries, she and Kasmeer should become more active towards the end of the second season in support roles, before becoming prominent again in the Third Season. Arguably, Rox and Braham should be given the same treatment.

CharrGirl.7896:

By " a lot" of people you mean the vocal minority which probably consists of 10% player base or even less? And even less then that in fact, since only a few replied to this thread? I’m no expert. If you want to run full statistics you’d need to survey every single player out there and we’ll see how it goes lol.

By a lot of people, I mean a lot of people in the thread. You’re taking my words out of context. I was simply replying to this incorrect claim that this was a hate-filled thread, which it is most definitely not. Most of the people in this thread have expressed their opinion in very well argued and polite ways.

CharrGirl.7896:

I really like most of your posts truly, and admire em. But. You’ve been consistently repeating the same thing in this and every other thread about Kas and Jory how it’s forced, out of place, etc etc. I know that some people share your views. I don’t – and that’s fine. Plus , you are extremely fixated on one thing and choose to ignore the other side.

I don’t think explaining why I think the scene felt out of place, in a thread about lesbian relationships in GW2, is me being “fixated on one thing”. That is the topic of the thread, and I’m staying on topic. You can’t really blame me for staying on topic dear.

CharrGirl.7896:

What’s becoming tiresome is this repetitiveness. In the end what are you, and other people who don’t like it going to do? Complain about this relationship till one of them dies? Complain every single time they get screen time? Does a mere 2 second kiss of relief really deserve this much attention?

I hope a lot of the writers read our feedback, and learn lessons from it. I assume GW2’s writers are very curious about how their player base feels about the Living Story. Not just this specific topic, but the Living Story as a whole. Our feedback may help them write better characters and better stories. That is what I hope our feedback helps them to do.

Also, I think it is incorrect to assert that this is the only thing I’m fixated on. As anyone can probably confirm, I give feedback to all aspects of the Living Story, and not just this one relationship. I give feedback both positive and negative. And even in regards to this particular kiss scene, my feedback has not been purely negative (see a few posts back). In fact, I applaud them for having the guts to do it.

CharrGirl.7896:

There is simply no end to this, but I would implore you that you just stop and think for a second, what this means to people who are like them, and who ever so rarely get to be in the spotlight.

I could not care less, it is irrelevant. This topic is about story telling and character development. I could be having this same discussion about heterosexual couples, as I often do (like when I talk about how badly Destiny’s Edge is written).

CharrGirl.7896:

Let there be positive feedback for once. I can only imagine how homosexuals feel about this negativity, after literally everything that is hetero being forced down their throats, to actively discuss in a thread with so much bashing

Every bit of the personal story deserves to be criticized, regardless if it is about a homosexual or heterosexual relationship between two fictional characters. I’m not going to single out either one.

And lets be clear, if poorly written heterosexual relationships in the game get forced into the Living Story, the same criticism would apply. I don’t make any exemption either way.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Tobias what do you mean “few”, let me introduce you to….. TRAHEARNE!!!!!!!

But on a serious note – I’m pretty sure Majory is oblivious to Kasmeer’s affection. I always got vibes from Ellen Kiel – so maybe when Majory rejects her she can go off with Kiel into the sunset. (The short story where Ellen greets Kasmeer as she arrives on Southsun…. Am I the only one who got those vibes?)

No, but I always had a suspicion about Kiel and Evon on the downlow.

Sousuke.7268:

The simple fact that mods have not locked this hatefilled charade of homophobia is disturbing to say the least.

Actually, as we know, the mods are closely watching the thread and are leaving it (mostly) untouched because are are exchanging our ideas and opinions in a mature and respectful manner. Offhand I can’t think of another gaming forum where a topic like this would go on for so long without being locked. And that says something pretty awesome about us, I think

However, I’m with CharrGirl. There’s a dragon on the loose, and it’s time we turned our attention to it. You can bet Marjory and Kasmeer aren’t letting any grass grow!

As much a shipper I am for Kasjory, I have to admit my first reaction to that scene was…

“YES, /KISS EMOTE SOON, W00T”

Anyway, I see a lot of people claiming that “if it were them…” scenarios, I’d really like to see that happen. The human mind and reaction can be vastly different when they are calm or panicking.

On topic, note that so far no one in the living story actually pointed out that they are of same sex pairing, other than just acknowledging that they are a couple. I imagine with the addition of Belinda Delaqua now, she’s mostly likely going to tease Marjory for having a lover just because she has a lover (speculating from Marjory’s respond when Kasmeer asked to meet them) when she’s over for a visit to check on Marjory’s injuries.

I guess the reason why people think that it’s being shoved in is because a lot of their ambient chatter has been missed out as they were optional. To actually catch bits of these, people usually need to be hanging around there and wait for it to happen. As exciting as it is to find all these hidden gems, Anet seems to be selling itself short for all the details they had put in (and these are temporary) only to have people missed it because they just want to move on to the next achievement. To have all those optional dialogues missed out and suddenly to have an unskippable scene depicting just that, you’ll get yourself a whole lot of /map chat questions about it.

I do understand the discomfort of some people about the romance tho, just because it’s romance. I think it’s just a matter of taste, some like pure action novels, some like romance novels. Just move on and talk about other stuff really.

I wouldn’t say I felt any discomfort to be honest. When Marjory went down, my first reaction was surprise, then sarcasm (“Proof that necros have terrible sustain!”), and then I really admired how angry Kasmeer sounded (“You monster!”). The hiccups added to her character as well, because I remembered from the Tower of Nightmares how she always has hiccups when she’s frightened.

But then after the Scarlet battle, I felt some relief that Marjory wasn’t dead. There had been so many forced deaths in the personal story already, that it would really have ticked me off if they had killed of another likeable character. Kasmeer hugged Marjory, which was a natural reaction, but they had a big close up kiss. And I could not help rolling my eyes. Not out of aversion or discomfort, but I thought to myself “Fan service!”. They just had to go there, and it felt really out of place.

Woohoo! Hot chicks making out!

Alice.8694:

And how do you think we homosexuals feel being constantly barraged by media that is obsessive with heterosexual romance? Well at first, a bit like you actually… Closely followed by the realisation that you’ll have to work hard to find stories with a relationship sub-plot that fits your sexual affinity.

But why do I have to have homosexual women making out on my screen so I can get the whole danged story?

So please forgive others for their quick and harsh retorts when they take you the wrong way. It’s just that they find your complaints a little ironic considering the reversal of roles here. Perhaps now that you understand how we feel when every single shoe-horned-in-to-appease-the-hetero-masses cliche couple dramatically kiss on screen. You could instead be a little more understanding and welcoming of change and a different perspective. Because you realize, through your own experience here that it is something we generally have to experience constantly in media. And this one occurrence here isn’t going to chase away or prevent the constant and countless hetero-focused media out there from being produced.

I’ve been with this game as long as most, I was fine with Sylvari and all that jazz. They weren’t human, so I didn’t care.
Then I’d find hint through out the game of homosexuality, again: I didn’t care because I could walk away.
The Jory and Kas proclaimed their interest, that irked me, but I could still walk away from their conversations.
I thought that was as far as they would take it, but no. Now I am being forced to watch them kiss and I couldn’t skip the scene without missing the story. Where should I walk away to?

We are a community, you preach about acceptance, but what about you? Why must people like myself be forced to sacrifice our values so we can enjoy this game? Show a compromise somewhere. And I don’t mean killing off jory or kass. I don’t mean giving us a hetero romance. I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game.

Is this so much to ask? This is not your game, this is our game. If we are going for equal representation, then actually follow up with that on both sides. An Evon to your Keil.

bullyrook.2165:

Why must people like myself be forced to sacrifice our values so we can enjoy this game?

How are you sacrificing your values by seeing two fictional characters kiss?

bullyrook.2165:

I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game.

Why should there be any argument?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Why must people like myself be forced to sacrifice our values so we can enjoy this game?

How are you sacrificing your values by seeing two fictional characters kiss?

bullyrook.2165:

I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game.

Why should there be any argument?

Elaborate please.

bullyrook.2165:

Elaborate please.

You said:

“Why must people like myself be forced to sacrifice our values so we can enjoy this game?”

I’m wondering what you are talking about. In what way are you being forced to “sacrifice your values” by the Living Story?

You also said:

“I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game."

You want them to show both sides of the argument. I would like to know, what argument? And why should there even be an argument about it? Are there sides to whether two people are allowed to fall in love and kiss? Why would there be any argument about that?

Tyria is a world in which our current religious denominations do not exist. As such, Tyria’s society isn’t skewed by the views of real-world Abrahamic religions regarding homosexuality.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Elaborate please.

You said:

“Why must people like myself be forced to sacrifice our values so we can enjoy this game?”

I’m wondering what you are talking about. In what way are you being forced to “sacrifice your values” by the Living Story?

You also said:

“I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game."

You want them to show both sides of the argument. I would like to know, what argument? And why should there even be an argument about it? Are there sides to whether two people are allowed to fall in love and kiss? Why would there be any argument about that?

To answer both your questions: the story is pitched so that everyone agrees, everyone feels the same emotional tug. I, and many others, do not feel that “tug” and in order to, we would have to let go of our beliefs. The devs have effectively said: here it is, if you don’t like it, we don’t need you. No means of skipping the scene, it has been forced down my gullet.

bullyrook.2165:

To answer both your questions: the story is pitched so that everyone agrees, everyone feels the same emotional tug. I, and many others, do not feel that “tug” and in order to, we would have to let go of our beliefs. The devs have effectively said: here it is, if you don’t like it, we don’t need you. No means of skipping the scene, it has been forced down my gullet.

If you have trouble with the idea of two people of the same sex loving each other, due to your beliefs, then the problem is with your beliefs, not with the writing.

There is no logical reason not to agree with two people loving each other, regardless of their sex.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If you have trouble with the idea of two people of the same sex loving each other, due to your beliefs, then the problem is with your beliefs, not with the writing.

There is no logical reason not to agree with two people loving each other, regardless of their sex. There are only illogical reasons. Get rid of the illogic, and embrace reason.

You must resort to insulting me when I never insulted you? To get back on topic, I do not appreciate of this bit of the story. I want GW2 as it was when I first signed on. I suspect this thread will be locked by the devs soon anyway.

bullyrook.2165:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If you have trouble with the idea of two people of the same sex loving each other, due to your beliefs, then the problem is with your beliefs, not with the writing.

There is no logical reason not to agree with two people loving each other, regardless of their sex. There are only illogical reasons. Get rid of the illogic, and embrace reason.

You must resort to insulting me when I never insulted you? To get back on topic, I do not appreciate of this bit of the story. I want GW2 as it was when I first signed on. I suspect this thread will be locked by the devs soon anyway.

She wasn’t insulting you she pretty much said that the problem is intolerance not the writing. So, how did GW2 look like when you first signed on?

If I had to nitpick I’d rather complain about all those crappy new armors they’re adding in gem store, like the zodiac one, but that’s the matter of taste.

bullyrook.2165:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If you have trouble with the idea of two people of the same sex loving each other, due to your beliefs, then the problem is with your beliefs, not with the writing.

There is no logical reason not to agree with two people loving each other, regardless of their sex. There are only illogical reasons. Get rid of the illogic, and embrace reason.

You must resort to insulting me when I never insulted you? To get back on topic, I do not appreciate of this bit of the story. I want GW2 as it was when I first signed on. I suspect this thread will be locked by the devs soon anyway.

She wasn’t insulting. I assume ‘she’ from “Mad Queen” but whatever. She was actually really rather polite rather than how you’ve been asserting there has to be something wrong with the relationship and it isn’t right . . .

Love isn’t a matter of right or wrong. Love is. Love isn’t a matter of having sex, wanting to have sex, or just enjoying the company of someone because they make you feel right. Love is all of those things, and none of those things.

We can agree to disagree on whether or not the Kiss should have been shown – I find it isn’t terribly out of place, and was definitely a sign Kasmeer is the more emotional of the pair.

But we aren’t going to agree on whether it’s wrong for two people to love each other. It’s not about whether they are women, men, hermaphrodites, asexual, of the same race, of different races, whatever. It’s about them caring for each other enough for one to show worry, rage, and relief over the other’s injuries.

Contrast Rox/Braham which is more a good friendship born out of mutual respect for each others’ skill. If they’d hugged (not even kissed) I would have thrown a keyboard through the monitor, because that would have been rushed and out of place. Kasmeer and Marjory? That’s been developing since Dragon Bash and more visibly since just before the Tower of Nightmares.

While it saddens me that this is your response to my post, I am not honestly that surprised.

I tried to appeal to your humanity and empathy, to try and understand our point of view. But clearly that was a wasted effort, I’ve tried to be nice… Now I am done trying to be nice.

bullyrook.2165:

I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game.

Is this so much to ask? This is not your game, this is our game. If we are going for equal representation, then actually follow up with that on both sides. An Evon to your Keil.

Oh yes, i’m sure you’d love an npc that gave equal representation to your bigotry. That’s the taboo word here right, that everyone is trying so desperately hard to avoid because it’ll likely tank this thread.
But ultimately, that is all this is, bigotry.

I hate to break it to you, but your values don’t deserve to be represented or even respected. Bigotry should never be respected.

This is not your game, nor is it our game. It is Arenanet and by extension NCsofts game. Purchasing a novel does not give you the rights to demand the author write a different story that more fits into your values.

Personally I did not want to go there Alice. I’ve tried to remain as polite and understanding as possible. I don’t want to call people out on things, even if I disagree with their views. Instead I hope I can inspire reason, with polite arguments. So that perhaps they’ll see reason too, and change their minds. That just seems more constructive to me. I’m not sure if this forum is the correct place for it though, which is why I kept it brief.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Personally I did not want to go there Alice. I’ve tried to remain as polite and understanding as possible. I don’t want to call people out on things, even if I disagree with their views. Instead I hope I can inspire reason, with polite arguments. So that perhaps they’ll see reason too, and change their minds. That just seems more constructive to me. I’m not sure if this forum is the correct place for it though, which is why I kept it brief.

I appreciate that you’re trying and I tried too… But what is the point when you are dealing with people coming from an irrational and hateful place to begin with.

I mean really not only are homosexuals being told that hey your sexual affinity is so disgusting to them that in a shared media they want it removing so that they don’t have to come to terms with the fact that they share a planet with homosexuals.

But the idea that they want a prominent npc in game to actively represent their hateful attitude towards homosexuals.

I think the best antidote to irrationality, is rationality.

I admire the efforts of the writers though, to present same sex relationships normally. Although I think occasionally they still struggle to find the right moment and tone for it (Just like a lot of sitcoms in the 90’s have struggled with it).

But I can see the intention is good, and I also recognize that it is important to have this shift in the presentation of same sex relationships in the media. Movies and games have the potential to completely change people’s mind on these subjects, and that’s a good thing.

bullyrook.2165:

I mean: give us a character in the main party that disagrees with what Jory and Kas stand for but is willing to work with them because they are his *friends. In other words: show both sides of the argument in the game.

Um, no. Because the argument really has no place in the game. The overarching message of GW2 is the different races setting aside their differences to fight a common enemy, which is an excellent message. Even within the races you see the differing elements working together…the Charr legions, the Asura colleges…even the three orders. Everybody. Works. Together.

What Jory and Kas “stand for” has no impact on this, therefore it doesn’t belong.

For the record, I don’t think Jory and Kasmeer stand for anything. They are just a couple. Two characters that happen to be in love, and who are drawn into this conflict with Scarlet. In Tyria, this is not a strange thing. If only the real world was more like Tyria (but without the dragons and mesmers).

Alice.8694:

I hate to break it to you, but your values don’t deserve to be represented or even respected. Bigotry should never be respected.

By this logic your own stance should likewise not be represented or even respected as it is a form of bigotry. As the word Bigot means “One who is strongly partial to one’s own group and is intolerant of those who differ.”

Alice.8694:

But what is the point when you are dealing with people coming from an irrational and hateful place to begin with.

Because you not only representing yourself when you defend your stance but everyone who shares a similar stance. If you truly believe feminism, homosexuality, racism, etc are issues to argue over than be respectful towards both your audience and opposition regardless of how they react. One will get more support from speaking in a polite and rational tone then devolving into petty insults.

I’ll admit you may never change the mentality of the opposition but it not their hearts you should seek to sway. The neutral party is whom you should seek allies from, and since I consider myself truly neutral I can say seeing both sides insult and shout at one another doesn’t make me look favorable on either side. In fact it only strengthens my belief that such matters have no place within the gaming community as regardless of the best intentions the thread devolves into a horrific flame war that must be locked by the moderators for the good of the community as a whole.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

For the record, I don’t think Jory and Kasmeer stand for anything. They are just a couple. Two characters that happen to be in love, and who are drawn into this conflict with Scarlet. In Tyria, this is not a strange thing. If only the real world was more like Tyria (but without the dragons and mesmers).

(playfully points an accusing finger)

Aha, I see how it is, you’re prejudiced against mesmers!

Darkbattlemage.9612:

In fact it only strengthens my belief that such matters have no place within the gaming community as regardless of the best intentions the thread devolves into a horrific flame war that must be locked by the moderators for the good of the community as a whole.

I’m hopeful that we haven’t really spiraled down that abysmal staircase yet. And I don’t think we have to, as long as we remain respectful of one another.

Tanith.5264:

(playfully points an accusing finger)

Aha, I see how it is, you’re prejudiced against mesmers!

Guilty, but for good reason. They worship a goddess of lies and deceit. They should be worshiping Grenth, like any sensible person. Because as we all know, Grenth is a symbol of truth, justice and happy pink unicorns.

See how reasonable and understanding I can be?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m hopeful that we haven’t really spiraled down that abysmal staircase yet. And I don’t think we have to, as long as we remain respectful of one another.

I’ve notice certain individuals have began taking the baby steps towards that particular cliff, so thought to point it out to the others to stop them.

Alice.8694:

One will get more support from speaking in a polite and rational tone then devolving into petty insults.

The internet is not the best medium for conveying something such as tone, sarcasm, etc… All we have are our words, and they can be read in any tone the other person wants. I tend to type out my own words, speaking them in my head with a dispassionate kind of voice, because I sincerely don’t think wasting energy getting upset or hyped is worth the effort on something like this.

It’s a game.

At the end of the day, I agree, if sexuality of any sort becomes this much of an issue in the gaming community, it’s probably not worth including it. We’re all here to have -fun-. As player’s we’re supposed to be fighting for a fictional cause, not one from reality. Let the writers convey the message they want to. At the end of the day, we receive that message and decide how to interpret it on an individual basis.

Well, I’m no lore expert, and I don’t know how things went in GW1.

But Kryta looks to me like a decadent empire. While Divinity’s Reach is one of the most glorious and beautiful cities in the world, the territory around it is costantly ravaged by enemies, and seems like central power is highly distant, so much that some captains are willing to do anything to obtain the resources they need to survive. While this happens outdoors, indoors there’s an endless game of betrayal and deceit (I like the idea that the ruler herself is a mesmer, thus an illusionist).

Ok, here starts the part I know even less about.
Queen Jenna acts in good faith, but that doesn’t mean she is not part of the decadence: she might see herself as the one fated to give her people the greater good, without knowing what they need right now. The same with the Queen’s Jubilee: a show of luxury that struggles with the moment of crysis Kryta is living. As if Queen Jennah, a powerful illusionists, was trapped in an illusion herself.

This might look like the perfect occasion for the birth of a reactionary movement in Divinity’s Reach, that preaches a “return to the old times” as a premise to a return to greatness for the human race. Some sort of “O tempora, o more”. They don’t have to be the good or the bad guys: they will be wrong, but with their mere presence they will show that something is indeed wrong.
From what I know, mankind in GW1 was MUCH more powerful than what it is now.

This would IMHO make the human setting much more fascinating. And IMHO local, complex stories and internal conflict might actually be more fun than another dragon.

If there were no notable homosexual relationships in GW1, it might become another factor in this conflict: someone might insinuate that it is a sign of decadence. That’s irrational, but it’s just something that might happen in dark times. And might help reaching the goal of making the reactionary movement unlikable, but understandable from a certain point of view.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Because you not only representing yourself when you defend your stance but everyone who shares a similar stance. If you truly believe feminism, homosexuality, racism, etc are issues to argue over than be respectful towards both your audience and opposition regardless of how they react. One will get more support from speaking in a polite and rational tone then devolving into petty insults.

Ultimately this thread can be boiled down to people trying to be moderate and inclusive of homophobes and homophobes demanding the removal of homosexual inclusion in videogames.

At the end of the day, I agree, if sexuality of any sort becomes this much of an issue in the gaming community, it’s probably not worth including it. We’re all here to have -fun-. As player’s we’re supposed to be fighting for a fictional cause, not one from reality.

We best not go to Elona then… Don’t want to upset the racists.
Or Cantha, don’t want to upset the culturephobes.
Best just white wash everything and just stick to white male power fantasies then, eh?

I dare not quote any of the above threads. They are all laced with intolerance. Even though many of you claim to be logical, you refuse to acknowledge the situation. The simple truth is that my logic checks out too. I simply believe you are wrong. The same way you believe I am wrong. That is why we are at an impasse. You continuously hurl demeaning comments at me such as bigotry and the like when I already told you that the inclusion of homosexuality was understandable, perhaps even agreeable from a story telling point of view, as it was presented only a few months ago.

How was it presented you ask? Like so:
In the Sylvari, they weren’t human, so it didn’t matter to me.
To the few npcs that I ran into that were of that persuasion, my reaction was “Huh, okay then.” and I’d go about by business.
Even when Jory and Kas stated their interest and open-air flirtations, I didn’t approve of it, but I still shrugged it off and let it go.

This latest update was what irked me and crossed the line. If it had been two guys I would have been equally miffed. That said, what’s done is done. I don’t want harm to befall Jory or Kas, I simply don’t want this to become a common trend in the game. And maybe, I doubt i though, we can hear something as simple as “get a room” from one of their friends.

As you can see, I have remained respectful to the last. I will not move on this view, not for you, not for anyone. And you’ll just have to, “let it go” as you so often say to individuals such as myself.

Alice.8694:

Ultimately this thread can be boiled down to people trying to be moderate and inclusive of homophobes and homophobes demanding the removal of homosexual inclusion in videogames.

That is incorrect in my opinion, I have noted several individuals who don’t particularly care if Marjory and Kasmeer are the same gender or not. They feel the scene detracted from the living story, which I have to agree it feels like some movie one would expect hollywood to produce. There also those individuals who believe many would react in the same manner as Kasmeer did if it was their significant other was in a similar state to Marjory. Their argument makes no mention of the fact they homosexuals, instead their argument revolves around the concept that everyone who react similar to Kasmeer in the same situation.

I really can’t recall seeing anyone behave in the stereotypical homophobic behavior on the other hand there are two individuals in this thread who are pro-homosexual who have reacted poorly towards differing beliefs. This behavior only furthers destabilizes the homosexual platform while strengthening their opposition.

Here’s a tip from my observations of other speakers for homosexuals, avoid using the following counter arguments.

Alice.8694:

We best not go to Elona then… Don’t want to upset the racists.
Or Cantha, don’t want to upset the culturephobes.
Best just white wash everything and just stick to white male power fantasies then, eh?

As it only further alienates the true audience you trying to appeal to, the neutrals reading the thread. Not only that but it makes you appear as immature to your opposition, who will almost particularly leap upon you for it.

Alice.8694:

Best just white wash everything and just stick to white male power fantasies then, eh?

I would say GW2 goes out of it’s way to be anything but . It may be good but it’s getting improbable. Acceptance of same sex pairs is not first on my mind in that matter. We got 5 wildly different spices with different philosophy and biology and yet(in present times) nearly no problems while working together. Pardon me, only Bad one have some issues with that, all other are knights in shining armor. We got High Fantasy game in Crapsack World setting. A bit of topic, sorry. My point is it looks to me Anet is creating nearly utopian world, which while being noble is unnatural.

bullyrook.2165:

I dare not quote any of the above threads. They are all laced with intolerance.

I certainly hope you wouldn’t consider my posts as such. I think I’ve been quite respectful.

bullyrook.2165:

Even though many of you claim to be logical, you refuse to acknowledge the situation. The simple truth is that my logic checks out too.

Please explain that logic.

bullyrook.2165:

I simply believe you are wrong. The same way you believe I am wrong.

No I don’t think we believe you are wrong in the same way. We have good arguments to think you are wrong. But I’d like to hear arguments from you, why you think you are right.

bullyrook.2165:

Even when Jory and Kas stated their interest and open-air flirtations, I didn’t approve of it, but I still shrugged it off and let it go.

Why didn’t you approve of it?

bullyrook.2165:

I will not move on this view, not for you, not for anyone. And you’ll just have to, “let it go” as you so often say to individuals such as myself.

That is not a healthy position to take on a discussion forum.

Alice.8694:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Because you not only representing yourself when you defend your stance but everyone who shares a similar stance. If you truly believe feminism, homosexuality, racism, etc are issues to argue over than be respectful towards both your audience and opposition regardless of how they react. One will get more support from speaking in a polite and rational tone then devolving into petty insults.

Ultimately this thread can be boiled down to people trying to be moderate and inclusive of homophobes and homophobes demanding the removal of homosexual inclusion in videogames.

At the end of the day, I agree, if sexuality of any sort becomes this much of an issue in the gaming community, it’s probably not worth including it. We’re all here to have -fun-. As player’s we’re supposed to be fighting for a fictional cause, not one from reality.

We best not go to Elona then… Don’t want to upset the racists.
Or Cantha, don’t want to upset the culturephobes.
Best just white wash everything and just stick to white male power fantasies then, eh?

Nice use of hyperbole, I applaud your efforts. As a gay man myself, I find this thread pretty kitten disturbing sometimes. People preaching about, “Tolerance,” are acting downright intolerant of anyone with a different opinion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I dare not quote any of the above threads. They are all laced with intolerance.

I certainly hope you wouldn’t consider my posts as such. I think I’ve been quite respectful.

No, you’ve actually been the odd man/woman out. I thank you for that, even if I resent your calling me irrational.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Even though many of you claim to be logical, you refuse to acknowledge the situation. The simple truth is that my logic checks out too.

Please explain that logic.

Breaking down logic, people have been going back and forth on this topic for eons. If we were to discuss it here, it would take this tread way off topic. If you need to know more, just message me and we can discuss it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I simply believe you are wrong. The same way you believe I am wrong.

No I don’t think we believe you are wrong in the same way. We have good arguments to think you are wrong. But I’d like to hear arguments from you, why you think you are right.

Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please. That is not giving a reason for you to be seen as “right”. It only suggests that you are not “wrong”. One does not necessarily imply the other.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Even when Jory and Kas stated their interest and open-air flirtations, I didn’t approve of it, but I still shrugged it off and let it go.

Why didn’t you approve of it?

I simply didn’t agree with the point of view. But again, I could always walk away, that is why I kept my mouth shut, up until this point.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I will not move on this view, not for you, not for anyone. And you’ll just have to, “let it go” as you so often say to individuals such as myself.

That is not a healthy position to take on a discussion forum.

Are you willing to move on your view? I somehow doubt that.

sAdam.5876:

Alice.8694:

Best just white wash everything and just stick to white male power fantasies then, eh?

I would say GW2 goes out of it’s way to be anything but . It may be good but it’s getting improbable. Acceptance of same sex pairs is not first on my mind in that matter. We got 5 wildly different spices with different philosophy and biology and yet(in present times) nearly no problems while working together. Pardon me, only Bad one have some issues with that, all other are knights in shining armor. We got High Fantasy game in Crapsack World setting. A bit of topic, sorry. My point is it looks to me Anet is creating nearly utopian world, which while being noble is unnatural.

I agree: as of now, it looks like a politically correct world.

A question, though:

Here is what the wiki says about how Charrs raise children:

Charr children are called cubs, though female cubs are occasionally called “kits” out of affection. Infants are born fully furred, with open eyes and functional limbs. Within a few days, cubs can follow their mothers over even the harshest terrain. They eat meat within a month of birth, and are fully independent several months later.

Charr cubs are raised by their parents only during this short period of time. Thereafter, they are taken to Fahrar camps (the closest human approximation is school or education), there they are raised in large packs by the Charr of their legion. Cubs in a Fahrar are taught to unify, encouraged to define their own social structure, and are thus forced into a warband. They are given a name to claim, which the cubs within a single warband derive their surnames, such as Fierceshot or Doomclaw.

This warband serves as the primary social group–and the only family–that a young Charr will ever know. Although cubs are aware of their lineage and their parents, adults have neither an interest nor a hand in the education, rearing, or growth of a young cub once delivered to the legion’s Fahrar. The legion (and the cub’s new warband as a part of that legion) comes before any blood ties.

As of this, we learn that each Charr learns that all their efforts must be focused on the warband which they are grown into. It looks to me like they are socialized into sort of a totalitarian society: the warband, and the Legion is everything.
Okay. And that Charrs don’t have interest for their cubs once they are grown enough. That’s because they are all cogs in the same machine.

But if they don’t care about their cubs, shouldn’t they aswell see long lasting relationship as nothing more than a leisure or -worse- a weakness?
This should particularly go for all relationships that don’t have reproduction as an end.

Saying that, shouldn’t Charr culture see a relationship as a waste of time?
I don’t think that there is any situation where this comes out, but maybe I just didn’t find it.

bullyrook.2165:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I dare not quote any of the above threads. They are all laced with intolerance.

I certainly hope you wouldn’t consider my posts as such. I think I’ve been quite respectful.

No, you’ve actually been the odd man/woman out. I thank you for that, even if I resent your calling me irrational.

Well I’ve been respectful too, but you are being irrational about it. It’s okay, though, just so long as you realize this is something you are reacting emotionally to rather than thinking on.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I simply believe you are wrong. The same way you believe I am wrong.

No I don’t think we believe you are wrong in the same way. We have good arguments to think you are wrong. But I’d like to hear arguments from you, why you think you are right.

Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please. That is not giving a reason for you to be seen as “right”. It only suggests that you are not “wrong”. One does not necessarily imply the other.

I actually somewhat agree here, but . . .

There is no “right” or “wrong” because there’s no absolute morality (or moral authority) in this particular instance. The only way this could be “wrong” is if (and this isn’t demonstrated) Marjory did not return the same affection. But that’s a different type of “wrong” than what you are discussing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I will not move on this view, not for you, not for anyone. And you’ll just have to, “let it go” as you so often say to individuals such as myself.

That is not a healthy position to take on a discussion forum.

Are you willing to move on your view? I somehow doubt that.

If you’re not willing to entertain the other side’s opinion as valid, discussion can only go so far. That’s what she means by “unhealthy position”.

redslion.9675:

But if they don’t care about their cubs, shouldn’t they aswell see long lasting relationship as nothing more than a leisure or -worse- a weakness?

Part A does not fit into Slot B here.

Mostly because we’re talking about emotional attachments, and you don’t always get a choice in those how to behave or react rationally/logically.

This should particularly go for all relationships that don’t have reproduction as an end.

Saying that, shouldn’t Charr culture see a relationship as a waste of time?
I don’t think that there is any situation where this comes out, but maybe I just didn’t find it.

Asura, I understand, put exactly that kind of spin on relationships. Work and science first, anything else second. Not to say they don’t care for each other but they do have a skewed sense different from how human beings view things. I present to you Exhibit A: Gadd and Zekk.