Guild Wars 2

Really.
A ragtag band of soldiers/spies/scholars were able to chase an elder dragon, corner it and take it down.
And I thought they were supposed to be the big bads of Tyria??
I’m not so convinced.

Zhaitan may have authority over the dead of Orr, but that seemed to be his only card to play. There wasn’t much else to Zhaitan other than his scary look and poison spit.

What I don’t understand even more is that these Elder Dragons are supposedly stronger than the Human gods yet humans (and other races/species) were able to defeat Zhaitan with their combined intelligence and technological advances. What’s to say that the Humans don’t abandon their own gods in lieu of their victory against one of the elder dragons, with them being “oh so powerful.”

Really I hope at least Primordus and Jormag are decent battles, cause Kralkatorrik might turn out to be a disappoint. Why? If his dragon lieutenant, the Shatterer, is even worth mentioning is a sad battle… His (Its) former lieutenant, Glint, was worlds better, being that Glint actually had intelligence and was powerful as well. (Thank you Forgotten!)

Does anyone share my sentiments that these elder dragons are very lackluster?

I think it was better if Anet didnt release the content that caused zhaitans dead right in the first month of release, they should’ve released a big patch ~ januari-februari with the dead of Zhaitan. Instead of LS cause i’m not a huge fan of that. they could’ve filled up the first content with 1 of zhaitans greatest Generals ala " Morgus Lethe" instead of Killing the bad guy right off the bet!

I believe someone did miss the fact that Zhaitan was attacked by the full might of the 5 major races and the three orders, using completely new technology and yet it still took LOADS of time and effort to take him down.

blakdoxa.7520:

Really.
A ragtag band of soldiers/spies/scholars were able to chase an elder dragon, corner it and take it down.
And I thought they were supposed to be the big bads of Tyria??
I’m not so convinced.

Zhaitan may have authority over the dead of Orr, but that seemed to be his only card to play. There wasn’t much else to Zhaitan other than his scary look and poison spit.

What I don’t understand even more is that these Elder Dragons are supposedly stronger than the Human gods yet humans (and other races/species) were able to defeat Zhaitan with their combined intelligence and technological advances. What’s to say that the Humans don’t abandon their own gods in lieu of their victory against one of the elder dragons, with them being “oh so powerful.”

Really I hope at least Primordus and Jormag are decent battles, cause Kralkatorrik might turn out to be a disappoint. Why? If his dragon lieutenant, the Shatterer, is even worth mentioning is a sad battle… His (Its) former lieutenant, Glint, was worlds better, being that Glint actually had intelligence and was powerful as well. (Thank you Forgotten!)

Does anyone share my sentiments that these elder dragons are very lackluster?

If you actually notice the sky in Arah Story, you’ll see there’s quite a big number of airships fighting alongside you, not to mention the ground forces. It’s an army in there, but we don’t really get to see it fully. Also, you ignore the fact that you and The Pact were weakening Zhaitan a long time before actually fighting him by cutting his food source (Mouth of Zhaitan), his primary sources of sight (Eyes of Zhatian) and generals (Tequatl the Sunless and the like).

Nowhere it is mentioned they are stronger than the gods. Their power rivals the god’s powers, but there’s no real way to draw a comparison.

Also, people tend to confuse the gameplay with the lore. Sure, taking Zhaitan down while sitting two minutes on cannons is the most anti-climatic fight I could’ve ever imagined, and in comparison Mai Trin must be a god, but you have to use your imagination to get the real picture.

He was taken down by the united technological supremacy of The Pact and five major races, with a ship as huge as an Elder Dragon, in a weakened state and sorrounded everywhere by an army. Also, the technology used to kill him uses Elder Dragon’s magical energy, so it’s not something to kid about, you see how badly it hurted him.

lordkrall.7241:

I believe someone did miss the fact that Zhaitan was attacked by the full might of the 5 major races and the three orders, using completely new technology and yet it still took LOADS of time and effort to take him down.

Really? Because what really happened was 3 players manned 3 cannons/turrets and shot it to death!

effort just getting to it really. When we encounter him finally, it just held on to the mountain side and doesn’t do much…….

SirDrygan.1823:

Really? Because what really happened was 3 players manned 3 cannons/turrets and shot it to death!

effort just getting to it really. When we encounter him finally, it just held on to the mountain side and doesn’t do much…….

Even though the post you quoted already said this, I’ll mention it again: Lore =/= Gameplay. Abaddon is no match for his own general in terms of combat prowess, but this means squat for lore or the reality that one of them is a god and the other is an overgrown Margonite gorilla who serves him.

Zhaitan is easy to kill in game because he’s the end boss of the personal story. The fight itself has to be fairly easy so that everyone who plays the game can complete it. From then on if you want to smash your head against hard content you’re welcome to do so, but putting something as integral to the game as the conclusion of the personal story (so far) behind a high player skill requirement seems like a rather large game design no-no. Complex/difficult optional content that you can’t beat for weeks (here’s lookin at you, DoA on release) is great, not being able to finish your character’s personal story – not so much.

tl;dr gameplay and lore are two different things.

At least it took more than two hobbits. Your complaint about the dragon fights is valid but in story terms the dragons are ok. There’s quite a lot going on in Orr with the sinking and raising, the corrupted priests and temples, Zaitan’s minions, Arah and the human gods, etc. It just needed a better Zaitan and for him to be seen earlier in the story.

In the LOTRO MMO there was a raid on a dragon called Draigoch that had no lore behind it at all. However when you entered his lair you had to sneak past the dragon as it looked through the cracks in the walls. The animations for the head and the eye (you really only saw the eye or some fire coming out of the snout) introduced the dragon incredibly well. The raid fight itself wasn’t the best but Draigoch had the type of entrance that Zaitan deserved.

The Pact wasnt a rag tag band of soldier/spys/scholars. It was an alliance of the three strongest anti-dragon specialised organisations on the contenent, backed up by the resources, technical expertise and support of the 5 strongest nations in Tyria and a number of supporting races.

The Pact and its technology was tailor made to fight Zhaitan and his minions which was the fruits of the research and effort of some of Tyria’s greatest minds. Even then it took a hell of alot of effort and loss of life to push into Orr and weaken Zhaitan enough to take him down.

I do agree that the final fight against him was rather disappointing but lore wise we were as pimped out and prepared to fight him as could be. We went into battle with him with prepared to exploit all his weakinesses and defend against his strengths.

Plus, frankly, he probably underestimated us.

As for the humans and the human gods, if the humans didnt abandon the gods after they themselves killed on of their own gods (Abbadon) then I dont think they will dumping their faith because a monumental effort that required the efforts of every allied race and order in Tyria took down a dragon.

You might be interested to read about something called “Ludonarrative Dissonance”, which this game so far is massively guilty of

Yeaaaaah…. it took 5 races, 3 orders and everything they had to be able to kill zhaitan.

Plus since the time of the elder dragons last awakening zhaitan has been weakened
.
A portion of his magic was drawn into the bloodstone when that was created and the personal story has you weakening him as well. Also I don’t know if the cataclysm had anything to do with zhaitans magic but if it did that would have hurt.

Everything else has been addressed so I’ll speak on this “What’s to say that the Humans don’t abandon their own gods in lieu of their victory against one of the elder dragons, with them being “oh so powerful.””

The answer is “Nothing”. It a choice humans can make or not make. The gods aren’t omnipotent. The ancient Jotun were becoming a threat to their power, or so we’re told. The Norn don’t worship them and consider them merely Spirits of Action to compliment the Spirits of the wild that they do embrace. The Asura trivialize them as being larger cogs in a greater existential machine known as Eternal Alchemy. And the Charr don’t consider them worthy of worship if they consider them at all.

That said, what’s to keep me respecting two loving parents who have looked after me for two decades even though they are far from perfect? And by continuing to respect them, I will most likely continue to reap the benefits of them looking out for me in the future. In the same way I don’t absolutely need friends but having their help and support is going to be a greater benefit than facing the world on my own.

edit: and according to NPC’s, the ED’s attack hasn’t really begun. So defeating Zaitan with all the resources that were used seems to be a preemptive strike against an unprepared foe.

The fight with zhaitan was utterly pathetic. This dragon absorbs all the knowledge of people it corrupts with it’s magic but it was dumb as a rock and NOONE it absorbed obviously gave it any sort of tactical or technological knowledge of the pact or even god forbid common sense. There was nothing and i mean NOTHING to stop that dragon from slamming the ship and sending it to the ground. This thing was so stupid i guarantee it didn’t need any help killing itself given that it obvious knows nothing(bull considering we’re told several times IT ABSORBS KNOWLEDGE)

Don’t freaken mention this crap and then make them mindless because either they are hyper intelligent or tards waiting to be helped to their doom. Alot of anger in my post but bad story telling deserves no defense.

Pavees.7281:

The fight with zhaitan was utterly pathetic. This dragon absorbs all the knowledge of people it corrupts with it’s magic but it was dumb as a rock and NOONE it absorbed obviously gave it any sort of tactical or technological knowledge of the pact or even god forbid common sense. There was nothing and i mean NOTHING to stop that dragon from slamming the ship and sending it to the ground. This thing was so stupid i guarantee it didn’t need any help killing itself given that it obvious knows nothing(bull considering we’re told several times IT ABSORBS KNOWLEDGE)

Don’t freaken mention this crap and then make them mindless because either they are hyper intelligent or tards waiting to be helped to their doom. Alot of anger in my post but bad story telling deserves no defense.

But it didn’t take anyone in a high enough ranking to know ALL the pacts secrets.

If it had taken Trahearne or his “2nd in command” then I’m sure the pact would have had to back off and re-think things.

I think you’ll find in most “military” groups that not all the knowledge is known by everyone. And a lot of the time there are seeds planted to send the enemy on a wrong path if someone of considerable stature is caught.

As for taking the ship down … I’m pretty sure he tried. Not like he was going to go kamikaze on a ship with THAT much power. I mean, we took him down with a few cannons of that power, imagine how much was stored on that ship and what would have happened to Zhaitan if he just flown into it.

That’s my opinions anyway ofc

Fish.1657:

Pavees.7281:

The fight with zhaitan was utterly pathetic. This dragon absorbs all the knowledge of people it corrupts with it’s magic but it was dumb as a rock and NOONE it absorbed obviously gave it any sort of tactical or technological knowledge of the pact or even god forbid common sense. There was nothing and i mean NOTHING to stop that dragon from slamming the ship and sending it to the ground. This thing was so stupid i guarantee it didn’t need any help killing itself given that it obvious knows nothing(bull considering we’re told several times IT ABSORBS KNOWLEDGE)

Don’t freaken mention this crap and then make them mindless because either they are hyper intelligent or tards waiting to be helped to their doom. Alot of anger in my post but bad story telling deserves no defense.

But it didn’t take anyone in a high enough ranking to know ALL the pacts secrets.

If it had taken Trahearne or his “2nd in command” then I’m sure the pact would have had to back off and re-think things.

I think you’ll find in most “military” groups that not all the knowledge is known by everyone. And a lot of the time there are seeds planted to send the enemy on a wrong path if someone of considerable stature is caught.

As for taking the ship down … I’m pretty sure he tried. Not like he was going to go kamikaze on a ship with THAT much power. I mean, we took him down with a few cannons of that power, imagine how much was stored on that ship and what would have happened to Zhaitan if he just flown into it.

That’s my opinions anyway ofc

But zhaitan is a dragon made of other dragons so i’d assume that he’d feel no real danger(he makes other undead dragons so it’s easily possible he could repair himself afterwards) of taking out the 1 ship that has his attention since when it did get a shot off it messed him up(but it obviously needed time to recharge and if he attacked while his minions distract bam boom easy win) but he still had the function to fly round for a bit.

Even being weakened but taking into account the vast tactical knowledge(and ability to adapt to a situation which is the reason alot of generals actually attained their rank. Knowing strategies means nothing unless you can think fast and if zhaitan had absorbed ALOT of soldiers then that knowledge would go a long way.)

Heck even absorbing a common soldier who knows bout planes(i doubt the entire pact wasn’t aware of the ships being worked on especially since they were around for a decent mount of the living story) and how to take them down or big metal things go boom they hurt me would obviously be enough for anything that isn’t brain dead to assume “so flying objects that would have to have some way to be taken out possibly needing wings or since i absorbed plenty of asurans i would recognize asuran tech to some degree and could think of some way to respond”.

Even ignoring what i said there wasn’t much preventing zhaitan from attempting to flee after the first shot and having his flying minions ransack the ship from below to take the big threat out

Zhaitan himself is a massive plothole that can’t genuinely be argued. It was stated he absorbed knowledge of all beings he corrupted and considering he corrupted plenty of asurans he knows asuran tech and could possibly deduce to some degree(more then nothing) what he was dealing with and how to react. He also has the knowledge of countless orr army and the sizable amount of norn and charr(they specialize in combat situations so their experience would be invaluable considering a decent mount of charr specialize in technological professions given their disposition towards magic in general and their societal change from magic to technology)

Again I know the story has to set up for us to win but the game said too much and failed to comprehend it’s own logic before jumping the gun. A hive mind setup that can gain more knowledge with each fallen soldier makes for a near impossible win(it can be done though if the story gives us a real reason to understand why case in point interrupting the link or sending a magic virus to erase or possibly corrupt knowledge the dragon gained to make it more stupid and easier to fight)

As already mentioned, let’s not forget the fact that the food supply and corpse supply for Zhaitan have been cut-off. In terms of Tyrian time, how long do you think Zhaitan stayed without his main sources of survival? And I also feel, from Zhaitan’s POV, after losing those sources to feed on, it was more or less like “the ultimate fight for survival” than just another fight he may have had in the past where his weaknesses were still unknown and he had a huge advantage over his enemies. More like he was willing to accept his fate, yet give a shot at defeating his foes. It was more or less of “Hunt or be hunted” scenario for him. There was no room for tactics and stuff at his weakest stage. He understood that all existing major races of Tyria understood its weaknesses and there’s nowhere to run but to fight the last battle and die or hope to live.

(All of this with the assumption that Zhaitan is actually dead and not just sent back to hibernation, of course).

Just my 2 copper on the topic.

Is Zhaitan really dead? Who knows. We never saw a corpse or anything. I’m still hoping for some redemption later down the road.

It was the deus ex machina called “Glory of Tyria” that damaged Zhaitan heavily, we just finished him off.

I love how people respond with “we destroyed his corpse factory and killed his mouth so he got weakened”. So it’s perfectly okay that a creature of god-like power had ONLY 1 or 2 mouths to consume artifacts and ONLY a few troop factories through about 100 YEARS since his awakening? And that those really valuable assets were defended by a bunch of zombies only, instead of entire legions led by risen high wizards(or any other champion of that kind)? It’s stupid and as bad writing as Death Star from episode 4. Yeah, it’s possible by the rules of the universe it appears in but doesn’t change the fact that it’s stupid. The same thing was with Kralk and idk sword made from his spine? So, if a mouse gets a piece of my thumbnail then it’s logical she could one-shot me with it? I know it’s a bad comparison and that there were more things to this fight but you get the point. Even if this sword had a lot of ED’s magic within it, still ED should have infinitely more power, thus the sword shouldn’t damage him too much.

And to OP: I don’t believe that it will get better considering how lackluster stories of living story have been so far. Anet just decided to make parodies and put as many jokes as possible.

If you ask me, the Pact shouldn’t even make it to the Orr. It should be crowded with undead and we should use stealth, tactics and arcane knowledge while scouting and sneaking through Orr. Instead an army goes in without bigger problems, it tells a lot about “power” of Zhaitan.

So to me, it would kind of make sense that Zhaitan was as easy as he was (apparently, i haven’t defeated him yet) considering the above (on top of the previously mentioned eyes and mouths of Zhaitan being destroyed) and wasn’t simply three guys on canons took down an elder dragon.

castlemanic.3198:

Personal story

hide spoiler

Having just completed the personal story (before the dungeon), we also have to take into account that trahearn performed the cleansing ritual, significantly reducing Zhaitans control of Orr itself. Without having literal control over the land anymore while the purity of the cleansing ritual spreads throughout the waters of Orr, Zhaitan’s power was crippled immensely, and it was only following that major act that the pact could head out, full army at hand, to take down Zhaitan.

So to me, it would kind of make sense that Zhaitan was as easy as he was (apparently, i haven’t defeated him yet) considering the above (on top of the previously mentioned eyes and mouths of Zhaitan being destroyed) and wasn’t simply three guys on canons took down an elder dragon.

In this I can believe, after all sylvari were born to fight dragons, it would be logical that they know ways and/or have powers to destroy them.

I join the Order to help fight the dragons insteed I fight everyting but not dragons, I event forgot about them and than BUM dragon bash…

“Bash the dragon” what dragon ? I fought agains the motlen alliance, karkas, pirates but no dragons (since Zaithan last year). It’s as the land of Tyria is living completly ignoring the dragons bcouse they have “bigger” problems ?

I do rather wish we had killed Zhaitan with somthing with more kick than asuran technology. Asura have become a literary crutch for Anet to use whenever they need a convenient plot device to appear.

“Why doesn’t Kraalkatorrik just step on them?”
“An asura built a mind control device to slow him down!”

“How are we going to kill the personification of undeath?”
“The asura built a new type of lasercannon of course!”

At this point it may as well be Elder Dragons vs Asura with help.

I wish we had defeated Zhaitan using a relic found in Orr or something. Perhaps an old artifact left over from the human god’s time on Tyria being harnessed with an asuran engine/weapon delivered by charr-made airships as the norn call upon the lost spirits of Orr and Sylvari purify the land to weaken and hold Zhaitan down. THAT would have been a more understandable defeat, and actually combine the strengths of all the races.

Ehecatl.9172:

I do rather wish we had killed Zhaitan with somthing with more kick than asuran technology. Asura have become a literary crutch for Anet to use whenever they need a convenient plot device to appear.

“Why doesn’t Kraalkatorrik just step on them?”
“An asura built a mind control device to slow him down!”

“How are we going to kill the personification of undeath?”
“The asura built a new type of lasercannon of course!”

At this point it may as well be Elder Dragons vs Asura with help.

I wish we had defeated Zhaitan using a relic found in Orr or something. Perhaps an old artifact left over from the human god’s time on Tyria being harnessed with an asuran engine/weapon delivered by charr-made airships as the norn call upon the lost spirits of Orr and Sylvari purify the land to weaken and hold Zhaitan down. THAT would have been a more understandable defeat, and actually combine the strengths of all the races.

to be fair, the airships are the pinnacle of technology, combining asuran, human and charr technology into a single airship, so it’s not simply an asuran laser cannon. or atleast that’s what i think.

If anything, i wish that what we did was only destroy a physical manifestation of zhaitan, that his spirit lingers within orr. That would then require something similar to what you mentioned, finding an old relic that leads on to larger scale i dont know what, fully complimenting what the pact defines.

castlemanic.3198:

Ehecatl.9172:

I do rather wish we had killed Zhaitan with somthing with more kick than asuran technology. Asura have become a literary crutch for Anet to use whenever they need a convenient plot device to appear.

“Why doesn’t Kraalkatorrik just step on them?”
“An asura built a mind control device to slow him down!”

“How are we going to kill the personification of undeath?”
“The asura built a new type of lasercannon of course!”

At this point it may as well be Elder Dragons vs Asura with help.

I wish we had defeated Zhaitan using a relic found in Orr or something. Perhaps an old artifact left over from the human god’s time on Tyria being harnessed with an asuran engine/weapon delivered by charr-made airships as the norn call upon the lost spirits of Orr and Sylvari purify the land to weaken and hold Zhaitan down. THAT would have been a more understandable defeat, and actually combine the strengths of all the races.

to be fair, the airships are the pinnacle of technology, combining asuran, human and charr technology into a single airship, so it’s not simply an asuran laser cannon. or atleast that’s what i think.

If anything, i wish that what we did was only destroy a physical manifestation of zhaitan, that his spirit lingers within orr. That would then require something similar to what you mentioned, finding an old relic that leads on to larger scale i dont know what, fully complimenting what the pact defines.

And with how the developers said the elder dragons to be “forces of nature” and “beyond our comprehension” you need to make them harder to fight instead of making them so bascially easy to fight that a veteran harpy gives me more issues then zhaitan.

When you kill something ingame and it feels lackluster no amount of lore otherwise is going to make the already pitiful boss seem anything more then he was. A walking target using the nerd fetish of dragons to draw people to think of them more then they were. I hope the future elder dragons get an actual boss fight with intelligent tactics and design behind them if only to make them feel like they are a real threat.

My suggestion to make the ending better would be to make reference to other players. Instead of having one central airship, why not have the NPC’s tell you that there are other’s attacking him and that there are other “heroes” doing what you’re doing? By just adding in a few more ship cannons hitting Zhaitan, the ending would become infinitely more believable/epic.

Pavees.7281:

castlemanic.3198:

Ehecatl.9172:

I do rather wish we had killed Zhaitan with somthing with more kick than asuran technology. Asura have become a literary crutch for Anet to use whenever they need a convenient plot device to appear.

“Why doesn’t Kraalkatorrik just step on them?”
“An asura built a mind control device to slow him down!”

“How are we going to kill the personification of undeath?”
“The asura built a new type of lasercannon of course!”

At this point it may as well be Elder Dragons vs Asura with help.

I wish we had defeated Zhaitan using a relic found in Orr or something. Perhaps an old artifact left over from the human god’s time on Tyria being harnessed with an asuran engine/weapon delivered by charr-made airships as the norn call upon the lost spirits of Orr and Sylvari purify the land to weaken and hold Zhaitan down. THAT would have been a more understandable defeat, and actually combine the strengths of all the races.

to be fair, the airships are the pinnacle of technology, combining asuran, human and charr technology into a single airship, so it’s not simply an asuran laser cannon. or atleast that’s what i think.

If anything, i wish that what we did was only destroy a physical manifestation of zhaitan, that his spirit lingers within orr. That would then require something similar to what you mentioned, finding an old relic that leads on to larger scale i dont know what, fully complimenting what the pact defines.

And with how the developers said the elder dragons to be “forces of nature” and “beyond our comprehension” you need to make them harder to fight instead of making them so bascially easy to fight that a veteran harpy gives me more issues then zhaitan.

When you kill something ingame and it feels lackluster no amount of lore otherwise is going to make the already pitiful boss seem anything more then he was. A walking target using the nerd fetish of dragons to draw people to think of them more then they were. I hope the future elder dragons get an actual boss fight with intelligent tactics and design behind them if only to make them feel like they are a real threat.

if they are a force of nature you cant kill it(the force they stand for) as something new will then take its place and become that force or nature will make a new force for the one it lost(nature has a tendency to repair itself)
the fight is lack lusten yes and could have been done bether but taken all into consideration the elder dragons are not weak

Honestly I think that while Zhaitan may have information, he might not be very smart. There’s a big difference between intelligence and knowledge, and being a gigantic undead beast monster he probably lacked the former. His response to most things was to throw undead at it, and the more intelligent enemies under his command tended to operate on an individual level.

We also have to think about what is meant by “powerful”. Sure, they can raise a nation from the ocean and tear a crystal scar in the desert, but these environmental effects might have no real use when fighting an army of airships. Given the right circumstances, a mouse can kill man, so the dragons face a much similar circumstance.

It is also safe to argue that Zhaitan is the weakest of the elder dragons. There are several severe limitations to his powers:

#1: His body is made up of the rotted bones of dead dragons, which can’t be too difficult to damage.
#2: A lot of his power was drained through bloodstone lore stuff that happened before.
#3: He spent a lot of energy raising orr.
#4: He can only corrupt the dead, which is the most difficult form of corruption to use against a besieging army.

Though I do agree that the fight with him was completely lacklustr. Hopefully Anet has learned from their mistakes, and with the next dragon we deal with will put up more of an engaging fight. I’d recommend using something like this as a reference material:

I agree with everything that has been said and just wanna say lore =/= gameplay one more time bc… Look at Logan Thackeray and rytlock and the rest of destiny’s edge, they’re supposed to be heroes and champions in lore and tremendous fighters. Logan can keep up his shield forever and nothing can get past it apparently in the CoF gameplay with baelfire haha

But u notice how quickly NPCs “die” and we don’t? If that’s the case were like god level in ability compared to the countless “lives” lost in combat. See to put it simply, we’re the ones who are truly out of place here, our ability is way beyond the real NPCs of the world, and the NPCs are also dumbed down. This is simply for gameplay matters. The balance is there so it’s actually playable. The time and amount of people it takes for us to take down a temple priest in Orr … Does that mean the priest is more powerful than the dragon? Don’t use the gameplay as a tool of measurement in lore.

Between the ease of victory over Zhaitan from a game mechanics perspective and Kraalkatorrik being mentally disabled by an asura, Anet really isn’t doing a good job building the dragons up as credible threats. Primordius’ lieutenant was infinitely more threatening to me the player.

Last fight with Zhaitan was a kind of fight which never should happen, I excepted more from last fight vs boss, instead even fighting with his dragon minions is more exciting. Animations and other things are ok but way we defeat powerful ancient dragon is just a joke, 3 min to take dragon stronger than god ;/

Ehecatl.9172:

Between the ease of victory over Zhaitan from a game mechanics perspective and Kraalkatorrik being mentally disabled by an asura, Anet really isn’t doing a good job building the dragons up as credible threats. Primordius’ lieutenant was infinitely more threatening to me the player.

Ah yes, someone that is starving and have just woken up after centuries of sleep is absolutely at the top of his powers…..

lordkrall.7241:

Ehecatl.9172:

Between the ease of victory over Zhaitan from a game mechanics perspective and Kraalkatorrik being mentally disabled by an asura, Anet really isn’t doing a good job building the dragons up as credible threats. Primordius’ lieutenant was infinitely more threatening to me the player.

Ah yes, someone that is starving and have just woken up after centuries of sleep is absolutely at the top of his powers…..

Rationalize it all you want, a single asura still gained mental domination over an Elder Dragon. For me that just makes the dragons as a whole seem massively weaker than I have originally imagined when reading about them. Raising a country from the sea? Ripping a path of destruction right through Ascalon? Freakin’ awesome! Almost being taken down by an asura, not so much. Even if you add Glint and Destiny’s Edge in there.

I guess I’m just disappointed. Anet’s pacing from a story perspective is just awful. Releasing a book in which one of the dragons nearly gets stomped by a small team of heroes. Then having the main dragon we’re battling die within the first month of the game… As a roleplayer that last one was especially frustrating as I didn’t even get a chance to include Zhaitan in my character story before he got killed off. And I started playing at launch!

I agree with the second post. They should have added the fight against Zhaitan in a permanent living world event. They could have made so so much better.

I will point out that it took more effort to kill Zhaitan than it did to kill Abaddon (who was killed by 8 people hitting him in the face for a while, essentially).

Hyper Cutter.9376:

I will point out that it took more effort to kill Zhaitan than it did to kill Abaddon (who was killed by 8 people hitting him in the face for a while, essentially).

Pretty sure there’s an “Abbadon is the strongest god and probably stronger than the ED’s” thread here somewhere. Go figure.

Ehecatl.9172:

lordkrall.7241:

Ehecatl.9172:

Between the ease of victory over Zhaitan from a game mechanics perspective and Kraalkatorrik being mentally disabled by an asura, Anet really isn’t doing a good job building the dragons up as credible threats. Primordius’ lieutenant was infinitely more threatening to me the player.

Ah yes, someone that is starving and have just woken up after centuries of sleep is absolutely at the top of his powers…..

Rationalize it all you want, a single asura still gained mental domination over an Elder Dragon. For me that just makes the dragons as a whole seem massively weaker than I have originally imagined when reading about them. Raising a country from the sea? Ripping a path of destruction right through Ascalon? Freakin’ awesome! Almost being taken down by an asura, not so much. Even if you add Glint and Destiny’s Edge in there.

I guess I’m just disappointed. Anet’s pacing from a story perspective is just awful. Releasing a book in which one of the dragons nearly gets stomped by a small team of heroes. Then having the main dragon we’re battling die within the first month of the game… As a roleplayer that last one was especially frustrating as I didn’t even get a chance to include Zhaitan in my character story before he got killed off. And I started playing at launch!

You kind of simplify what happened. Destiny’s Edge found a weakiness that no one including the ED expected and exploited it. Thats really the only way we can win against them. In the personal story, every piece of tech the Pact is deploying is tailor made to counter and harm Dragons and their minions. Those cannons we shot Zhaitan with? Designed to be like Kryptonite to him.

The fight mechanics were awful and the tech not really well enough explained but both the Destiny’s Edge and the Zhaitan fight kind of add up. We have to find weakinesses to exploit because the we cant beat the EDs any other way. Magic is mostly useless since they eat the kitten stuff. We certianly cant match them in a straight up Str vs Str. And we cant win a war of attrition since they just would turn us into more of their soldier.

You had one of the best Golemancer’s in Asuran history using specialised tech that harnessed Kralkatorik’s own blood to create a back door into the EDs mind and it could only be done if a collar was fixed to the EDs body, which in its own right was a monumental task. Kralkatorik was a giant with a weakness exposed. Even then he had an army of Branded to fight for him. All Snaff managed was to hold his body still.

I think the real Issue here is that the fight with Zhaitan, just was not fun. just shooting a cannon not really having to move. kind of boring. I think we just were all expecting something more action packed at the end. or some kind of final trick that he might of been hiding. or just some kind of cool attacks he might of used on us.

Lickage.7318:

I think it was better if Anet didnt release the content that caused zhaitans dead right in the first month of release, they should’ve released a big patch ~ januari-februari with the dead of Zhaitan. Instead of LS cause i’m not a huge fan of that. they could’ve filled up the first content with 1 of zhaitans greatest Generals ala " Morgus Lethe" instead of Killing the bad guy right off the bet!

This.

Defeating a Dragon right off the bat is kinda of lame. There was no failure in the game. In GW1, we failed in defending Ascalon, Shiro killed us, and we were decimated in the attack on Gendara. Thus when our characters made a comeback, the victory felt so much sweeter. A big turning point in Edge of Destiny is when Eir, Zojja, and Snaff fail against the Dragonspawn. It made their victory over the minion so much sweeter when they came with their full guild. I do feel like the game should’ve ended with the defeat of Morgus Lethe’s armada, with additional content being the Assault on Orr in the same way they did War in Kryta.

Or they could do similar endgame content like they did in Nightfall and EoTN, a new foe steps in to absorb the old one’s power. In this case though, Zhaitan is trying to absorb and corrupt the magic within Caladbolg. The Firstborn experience great pain and are forced to protect the dream. The player character and Destiny’s Edge then have to head to the heart of orr itself to deal with Zhaitan while the Pact holds off the rest of its armies. Alot of the Arah dungeon took place in the sky, I believe if Zhaitan called his entire army to his central location to defend, the Pact will have a huge fight on their hands.

Gregorius.1024:

There was no failure in the game. In GW1, we failed in defending Ascalon, Shiro killed us, and we were decimated in the attack on Gendara. Thus when our characters made a comeback, the victory felt so much sweeter.

I heard we failed quite badly at Claw Island.

So, someone mentioned the fight with Zhaitan =/= Lore. Can someone explain that reasoning?

SirDrygan.1823:

So, someone mentioned the fight with Zhaitan =/= Lore. Can someone explain that reasoning?

Eluveitie.1290:

Also, people tend to confuse the gameplay with the lore. Sure, taking Zhaitan down while sitting two minutes on cannons is the most anti-climatic fight I could’ve ever imagined, and in comparison Mai Trin must be a god, but you have to use your imagination to get the real picture.

He was taken down by the united technological supremacy of The Pact and five major races, with a ship as huge as an Elder Dragon, in a weakened state and sorrounded everywhere by an army. Also, the technology used to kill him uses Elder Dragon’s magical energy, so it’s not something to kid about, you see how badly it hurted him.

takatsu.9416:

The balance is there so it’s actually playable. The time and amount of people it takes for us to take down a temple priest in Orr … Does that mean the priest is more powerful than the dragon? Don’t use the gameplay as a tool of measurement in lore.

Ehecatl.9172:

lordkrall.7241:

Ehecatl.9172:

Between the ease of victory over Zhaitan from a game mechanics perspective and Kraalkatorrik being mentally disabled by an asura, Anet really isn’t doing a good job building the dragons up as credible threats. Primordius’ lieutenant was infinitely more threatening to me the player.

Ah yes, someone that is starving and have just woken up after centuries of sleep is absolutely at the top of his powers…..

Rationalize it all you want, a single asura still gained mental domination over an Elder Dragon. For me that just makes the dragons as a whole seem massively weaker than I have originally imagined when reading about them. Raising a country from the sea? Ripping a path of destruction right through Ascalon? Freakin’ awesome! Almost being taken down by an asura, not so much. Even if you add Glint and Destiny’s Edge in there.

I guess I’m just disappointed. Anet’s pacing from a story perspective is just awful. Releasing a book in which one of the dragons nearly gets stomped by a small team of heroes. Then having the main dragon we’re battling die within the first month of the game… As a roleplayer that last one was especially frustrating as I didn’t even get a chance to include Zhaitan in my character story before he got killed off. And I started playing at launch!

They had been working on that mindpossession a lot before they even confronted Kralk and it only worked for a small moment when Glint Managed to get the Laurel on Kralk. Even then they failed. I do agree I don’t like the Pact story. Instead I’d be much happier if the story revolved around Destiny’s Edge like in the books and dungeons. They were advertised as the heroes and protagonists of the game, what do we get? Trahearne. Meh.

blakdoxa.7520:

Really.
A ragtag band of soldiers/spies/scholars were able to chase an elder dragon, corner it and take it down.
And I thought they were supposed to be the big bads of Tyria??
I’m not so convinced.

One dragon alone isn’t a big deal, clearly.

It’s all of them together that pose a threat. Left unchecked, they will consume all magic and possibly what’s left of the world after that. Fortunately, they aren’t all active and aren’t consciously focused on destroying the world.