Guild Wars 2

Obsidian.1328:

Doesn’t matter, you said all. One human brought down Orr, no more.

He was human or charr? Which race annihilated Orr?

No it’s not. Scarlet woke a dragon immediately with one spike of magic, a whole continent falling on a dragon wouldn’t do it??

Scarlet was an all-around genius, with colossal resources, and even with that she was able to do it only after gathering data across whole world and final strike into very specific spot.

Searing-level =/= Searing itself. So the Searing and invasion couldn’t quite defeat Ascalon, but the regular Charr army defeated the full might of Orr(which was at the very least the equal of Kryta or Ascalon) in twelve hours flat.

Orr most likely was already ravaged by Third Guild War.

The Third Guild War (referred to by some as the Guild War) was the bloodiest and the most recent of the Guild Wars, and the first to include Orr. The kingdom of Orr had not wanted to get drawn in, which it had successfully avoided during the first two conflicts, but when foreign guilds began fighting on the streets of Arah, they felt obliged to retaliate.

Kalavier

1) No, I’m saying the destruction wasn’t all-encompassing. Even one of Zain’s quests has you going down to Regent Valley to help him resupply since he’s barred from AC. How could he resupply from the southeast if all of Ascalon is a “wasteland” as you put it? I’m fairly certain Ascalons wouldn’t be giving a Krytan supplies if there wasn’t a steady supply of them coming in.

2) A spy can be tried for treason, it’s a small leap of logic to say Adelbern would think Zain a spy. He hates Krytans. And no, I really don’t think he had Evennia killed. That makes no sense.

3) You really don’t think that the Titan’s we kill during a quest titled “The Titan Source” aren’t the same one’s the Charr were worshiping? Even Glint said that the Titan threat is over when you finish it, how can that be if the “Charr” Titans are still around?

Kalavier: …but tell me, EXPLICITLY, where it states that Ascalon ‘won the war’ at the end of Prophecies.

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Perhaps not explicit enough for you, but it is what it is. I don’t know how you can read that and think the war is still on.

Obsidian.1328:

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Sounds like “we were struck badly and now trying to recover from blow, sending ambassadors to Kryta and Elona, asking them for help”. And as we know, they never recovered enough, final assault of Ascalon City ended them. And help never arrived.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier

1) No, I’m saying the destruction wasn’t all-encompassing. Even one of Zain’s quests has you going down to Regent Valley to help him resupply since he’s barred from AC. How could he resupply from the southeast if all of Ascalon is a “wasteland” as you put it? I’m fairly certain Ascalons wouldn’t be giving a Krytan supplies if there wasn’t a steady supply of them coming in.

It didn’t destroy everything, but I don’t see how you think a nation could be self sufficient off of that land post searing. Hell, I don’t see how you played Prophecies and thought Ascalon post searing wasn’t a wasteland.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/e/ea/Prophecies_screenshot_060.jpg Pre searing, a lush, fertile land.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/a/ae/Old_Ascalon.jpg post searing… how is that not a wasteland compared to the first picture?

2) A spy can be tried for treason, it’s a small leap of logic to say Adelbern would think Zain a spy. He hates Krytans. And no, I really don’t think he had Evennia killed. That makes no sense.

Makes no sense for the King who hates krytans to the point he’d rather see his nation die then accept help… would murder a Krytan? Note she said it herself, he’d rather that they ALL DIE then to grant her an audience.

3) You really don’t think that the Titan’s we kill during a quest titled “The Titan Source” aren’t the same one’s the Charr were worshiping? Even Glint said that the Titan threat is over when you finish it, how can that be if the “Charr” Titans are still around?

Because the Titans we kill are ones the Lich Lord sent forth. As I recall, the Titans the Charr found originally were from another place. Specifically, a place that is the Flame Legion capital and they were found 200 years before the searing.

The TITAN threat was over. Titan threat does not equal the Charr threat.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier: …but tell me, EXPLICITLY, where it states that Ascalon ‘won the war’ at the end of Prophecies.

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Perhaps not explicit enough for you, but it is what it is. I don’t know how you can read that and think the war is still on.

Funny, isn’t that from a document written by a Canthan? Because we all know Adelbern would never make a treaty with Kryta so it’s hard to see Ascalon forming new treaties with Kryta when Kryta itself was in the middle of a government shift (Namely, how the White Mantle were losing their gripe at the time).

edit: Not from a Canthan, but the guy writing it at the exact moment is in Cantha.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Sounds like “we were struck badly and now trying to recover from blow, sending ambassadors to Kryta and Elona, asking them for help”. And as we know, they never recovered enough, final assault of Ascalon City ended them. And help never arrived.

Considering we know of Adelbern’s view of Krytans, we know that it’s very, VERY unlikely that he was actually forming treaties with Kryta. If any were being formed, it was likely ‘underground’ and never saw his ‘desk’ as it was.

Ascalon, as of end of Prophecies, was a doomed nation. The only sources of Trade would be from Kryta or Deldrimor. One was on the permanent kittenlist of the King, the other in a civil war. Elonian or Cantha would possibly be trading partners, but the prices would be so expensive because of travel distance and danger Ascalon couldn’t survive.

See, if Adelbern hadn’t been king (And Rurik or somebody else was), then YES, Ascalon could’ve survived longer. But with Adelbern on the throne it was doomed. An isolationist/isolated nation with much of the natural resources destroyed isn’t going to last long.

Shocking, Ascalon didn’t last long after the Searing. About 20 years or so from what I see. The charr caused the Searing, but Adelbern killed Ascalon.

Kalavier.1097:

It didn’t destroy everything, but I don’t see how you think a nation could be self sufficient off of that land post searing. Hell, I don’t see how you played Prophecies and thought Ascalon post searing wasn’t a wasteland.

We didn’t get to see all of Ascalon Pre-Searing, and even less of it post-Searing. Just like you don’t get to see all of Kryta, or Cantha, or Elona. Hell you don’t even get to see much of the Charr lands, yet you don’t have a problem assuming it’s all there. The sum of the explorable parts in the game is less than the whole.

Makes no sense for the King who hates krytans to the point he’d rather see his nation die then accept help… would murder a Krytan? Note she said it herself, he’d rather that they ALL DIE then to grant her an audience.

She meant everyone, not just Krytans. Again, GW2 writing there.

Because the Titans we kill are ones the Lich Lord sent forth. As I recall, the Titans the Charr found originally were from another place. Specifically, a place that is the Flame Legion capital and they were found 200 years before the searing.

The Dragon’s Gullet is supposed to be near Mount Hrangmer in GW1…which is where those Titans came from. Right next to the Flame Legion Corridor. Any of this falling into place now?

The TITAN threat was over. Titan threat does not equal the Charr threat.

Agree.

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Funny, isn’t that from a document written by a Canthan? Because we all know Adelbern would never make a treaty with Kryta so it’s hard to see Ascalon forming new treaties with Kryta when Kryta itself was in the middle of a government shift (Namely, how the White Mantle were losing their gripe at the time).

edit: Not from a Canthan, but the guy writing it at the exact moment is in Cantha.

The guy that wrote that left Ascalon after the Proph campaign to travel to Cantha to resume trade routes, diplomacy, etc. It’s meant as bridging narrative for Proph PC’s to intro into the Factions campaign. The whole point of Adelbern’s speech at the end of The Last Day Dawns is to give him a sense of regret and remorse at being so stubborn and pig-headed to his son. The writer is trying to show you he realizes the error of his ways.

Sounds like “we were struck badly and now trying to recover from blow, sending ambassadors to Kryta and Elona, asking them for help”. And as we know, they never recovered enough, final assault of Ascalon City ended them. And help never arrived.

It doesn’t sound like that at all, you’re reaching. It would have been worded differently and had a completely different tone had they been begging for help. Also, and as we know, the final assault on AC was GW2 material.

Ascalon, as of end of Prophecies, was a doomed nation. The only sources of Trade would be from Kryta or Deldrimor. One was on the permanent kittenlist of the King, the other in a civil war. Elonian or Cantha would possibly be trading partners, but the prices would be so expensive because of travel distance and danger Ascalon couldn’t survive.

…or anywhere else off the explorable map. You’re falling victim to game limitations again.

See, if Adelbern hadn’t been king (And Rurik or somebody else was), then YES, Ascalon could’ve survived longer. But with Adelbern on the throne it was doomed. An isolationist/isolated nation with much of the natural resources destroyed isn’t going to last long.

Another assumption.

Shocking, Ascalon didn’t last long after the Searing. About 20 years or so from what I see. The charr caused the Searing, but GW2 ANet killed Ascalon.

I fixed that for you.

Obsidian.1328:

It would have been worded differently and had a completely different tone had they been begging for help.

Beg for help, while Adelbern still being a king? Old madman will rather kill his ambassadors if they even trying to ask him about that.

Also, and as we know, the final assault on AC was GW2 material.

Because it was quite a few years after the end of original campaign?

Rednik.3809:

Beg for help, while Adelbern still being a king? Old madman will rather kill his ambassadors if they even trying to ask him about that.

No, because of the nature of the whole document. It’s basically an introductory history lesson for Cantha from the point of view of a “post-Flameseeker Prophecies” Ascalon ambassador. It would seem exceedingly odd for him to go through all that trouble of gathering all of that historical information to take back to an almost-dead kingdom, dontcha think?

Because it was quite a few years after the end of original campaign?

Because it was written by GW2 writers…

Obsidian.1328:

No, because of the nature of the whole document. It’s basically an introductory history lesson for Cantha from the point of view of a “post-Flameseeker Prophecies” Ascalon ambassador.

Not just “Ascalon ambassador”, but Ascalon ambassador approved by Adelbern, who had quite specific view on war events and pretty unlikely could approve someone who didn’t share his mindset. Ambassador is a voice of king.

Because it was written by GW2 writers…

By GW2 writers and not by GW1 writers? You have confirmation on this from anet? Because this is pretty interesting claim.

Obsidian if you want to be a historian you should act like one. Historians do not delve into causes as much as chain of events. A cause is a definitive statement that could be found in the conclusion but not in the beginning of their works.

The civil war was caused by slavery: is not a statement you can make until you have shown the chain of events fully.

So when you get angry that people say human/s destroyed Orr. You can say the human did it because of the Charr, and we can set up a chain of events, but not a cause.

Charr besiege Orr>a human casts a spell>cataclysm

Here is a good example of history work from the wiki.

The Vizier’s decision to read from the Lost Scrolls to defeat the invading Charr has been seen as noble by some and deranged by others. Scholars debate whether a Charr victory in Orr would have been preferable to the nation’s complete destruction, or that, under the circumstances, the Vizier could have made no other decision, and that the outcome of the spell could not have been foreseen.
It is revealed in the Realm of Torment that Terick, an Orrian citizen (who was in reality Razakel, a demonic agent of Abaddon) had convinced Khilbron into using the dark magic that caused the Cataclysm. The specter of Jutu later reveals that Khilbron was not simply coerced into using the magic but had also been converted to the worship of Abaddon prior to the Cataclysm.

The plot thickens. But do not blame the foefire or the cataclysm on the charr without elaborating on the chain of events. So what we do know is that America dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We know that a human caused the cataclysm and a separate human caused the foefire. Those are the facts right now.

Obsidian.1328:

We didn’t get to see all of Ascalon Pre-Searing, and even less of it post-Searing. Just like you don’t get to see all of Kryta, or Cantha, or Elona. Hell you don’t even get to see much of the Charr lands, yet you don’t have a problem assuming it’s all there. The sum of the explorable parts in the game is less than the whole.

You can see that ALL of Ascalon post-searing shares the same world view texture. There isn’t green there, it’s all this burnt landscape. I saw not a single place on the world map that looked like a fertile farmland.
“Blasted and battered, the current landscape of Ascalon holds only the ghost of its former glory. Skeletons of grand cathedrals and remnants of whole cities lie broken on the shifted, displaced ground. The protective Great Northern Wall is perhaps the most intact structure in the entire kingdom, but the destruction that surrounds it lies in testament to its ultimate failure.

Before the Charr invasion and the Searing, Ascalon was a fertile land, full of wheat fields and blossoming flowers. Now though, little grows here in this wasteland. The once loamy earth is now dry and arid. The riverbeds have dried up, and the mudflats have turned into a patchwork of cracked plates and jagged scars in the ground. " Hey, check it out. GW prophecies called Ascalon a wasteland.

She meant everyone, not just Krytans. Again, GW2 writing there.

And Adelbern, in PROPHECIES, held the same personality. He wasn’t changed. I’m sick of people acting as in Anet DRASTICALLY kittening changed Adelbern.

The Dragon’s Gullet is supposed to be near Mount Hrangmer in GW1…which is where those Titans came from. Right next to the Flame Legion Corridor. Any of this falling into place now?

Really? You are saying the flame legion CAPITAL, Where they discovered Titans 200 years before the searing… Is literally not that far from the wall? Where do they say that about Dragon’s Gullet? Hrangmer is not on the map of GW1. It’s not even stated to be the Flame Citadel in GW2 explicitly either. (Dragon’s gullet is the southern border of Fireheart Rise, using a map comparison)

The guy that wrote that left Ascalon after the Proph campaign to travel to Cantha to resume trade routes, diplomacy, etc. It’s meant as bridging narrative for Proph PC’s to intro into the Factions campaign. The whole point of Adelbern’s speech at the end of The Last Day Dawns is to give him a sense of regret and remorse at being so stubborn and pig-headed to his son. The writer is trying to show you he realizes the error of his ways.

And yet, I never saw anything that said Ascalon had won the war and was in the clear… simply that they had survived that particular threat. Or that Adelbern had changed really.

…or anywhere else off the explorable map. You’re falling victim to game limitations again.

Erm, what? Are you saying there were other nations well off and capable and willing to trade with Ascalon that were never stated in GW1 or GW2?

See, if Adelbern hadn’t been king (And Rurik or somebody else was), then YES, Ascalon could’ve survived longer. But with Adelbern on the throne it was doomed. An isolationist/isolated nation with much of the natural resources destroyed isn’t going to last long.

Another assumption.

“The sudden destruction of most of the kingdom during the Searing has taken much of the fight out of the man now known as King Adelbern. He has become stubborn and set in his ways, afraid of losing what little he has left. But in his son Rurik, the people see a leader with the courage to perhaps help them reclaim their fallen kingdom.

The survivors of Ascalon live in a state of constant warfare, using hit-and-run tactics and the remnants of the Great Wall to prevent any significant advances by the Charr into their territory. King Adelbern has circled the wagons, so to speak, content to simply defend what Ascalon has left and live to fight another day. Prince Rurik, on the other hand, is far more daring than his father thinks is wise, and has even suggested that the time may be coming to launch an offensive against the Charr.

Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age. "

Oh really? It’s mad quite clear ingame that Adelbern was stubborn, set in his ways, and refused to change or accept help. He refused to accept the fact Ascalon was LOSING, badly. If Rurik had been king, Ascalon would’ve accepted help, and not become isolationist at the worst time possible.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

No, because of the nature of the whole document. It’s basically an introductory history lesson for Cantha from the point of view of a “post-Flameseeker Prophecies” Ascalon ambassador.

Not just “Ascalon ambassador”, but Ascalon ambassador approved by Adelbern, who had quite specific view on war events and pretty unlikely could approve someone who didn’t share his mindset. Ambassador is a voice of king.

Because it was written by GW2 writers…

By GW2 writers and not by GW1 writers? You have confirmation on this from anet? Because this is pretty interesting claim.

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

Obsidian.1328:

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

So right before start of making EotN whole Anet lore writing team was fired or what?

Obsidian.1328:

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Yeah… War is over and the humans won. Adelbern is remorseful and regretful.

Not really, end of that one Titan mission simply has us catching him as he’s tired. Nothing indicates that his entire personality has shifted from what he was shown to have before.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

Also, no. EOTN and GW beyond may help bridge and introduce some of the lore of GW2, but it is NOT guild wars 2. It is Guild wars 1. Was the entire GW1 staff removed and didn’t work on those items at all? I don’t recall ever hearing such.

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

Lurinna.4306:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

And in Prophecies Ascalon wasn’t going to last long. I’m curious WHO in Kryta those supposed treaties would have been with (from that quote about Ascalon recovering).

White Mantle, who was leaderless because of our actions? Shining Blade, which while maybe growing in strength, still had their own teeth kicked in recently?

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

So right before start of making EotN whole Anet lore writing team was fired or what?

No, in between Factions and Nightfall was the big staff shuffle. It wasn’t just writers, a lot of personnel came and went during that time. The 3rd installment(Nightfall) was pretty much an eventuality by then and the writers, even all the new ones, still had to pan that out and earn their stripes by doing so.

The big dev shuffle was after Nightfall I believe, but don’t quote me on that. :-/

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Yeah… War is over and the humans won. Adelbern is remorseful and regretful.

Seriously dude?? That phrase is uttered immediately after the last core mission in Proph, before the Titan quests, and certainly before Factions.

Not really, end of that one Titan mission simply has us catching him as he’s tired. Nothing indicates that his entire personality has shifted from what he was shown to have before.

If all you get from that is “he’s tired” I don’t know what to tell you.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

…

Also, no. EOTN and GW beyond may help bridge and introduce some of the lore of GW2, but it is NOT guild wars 2. It is Guild wars 1. Was the entire GW1 staff removed and didn’t work on those items at all? I don’t recall ever hearing such.

Quote from the EotN main wiki page: “GW:EN, is the fourth purchasable installment in the original Guild Wars game. It is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2.”
The entire purpose of EotN was to intro the GW2 narrative dude. Had they not done so, we’d have had a 4th campaign, Utopia, to gab about here.

For staff answer, see my post above.

Kalavier.1097:

Lurinna.4306:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

And in Prophecies Ascalon wasn’t going to last long. I’m curious WHO in Kryta those supposed treaties would have been with (from that quote about Ascalon recovering).

White Mantle, who was leaderless because of our actions? Shining Blade, which while maybe growing in strength, still had their own teeth kicked in recently?

They never wrote another story for post-Proph Tyria until EotN, are you really trying to suggest that that quote is invalid because it didn’t address the particular political instability of Kryta that was months ago by the time of that quote??

You’re right, I guess whoever wrote that wasn’t being detailed enough.

Lurinna.4306:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

I didn’t know that, is that true?

Obsidian.1328:

The big dev shuffle was after Nightfall I believe, but don’t quote me on that. :-/

Well, Heres the writers who wrote Nightfall: From http://gw1101.gtm.guildwars.com/products/nightfall/features/nightfallcredits.php
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Theres only a one person absence in between the two games.

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credit list for GW2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Writers
Angel Leigh McCoy
Bobby Stein
David Wilson
John Ryan
Matt Forbeck
Peter Fries
Scott McGough

The biggest change in staff was between EoTn and when GW2 was published, at least for the writing team ^^

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Yeah… War is over and the humans won. Adelbern is remorseful and regretful.

Seriously dude?? That phrase is uttered immediately after the last core mission in Proph, before the Titan quests, and certainly before Factions.

So a single battle/pair of battles magically just made the entire Charr offensive stop and Ascalon won and wasn’t threatened by the Charr, their home being a wasteland now, their armies and defensives severely weakened…

Not really, end of that one Titan mission simply has us catching him as he’s tired. Nothing indicates that his entire personality has shifted from what he was shown to have before.

If all you get from that is “he’s tired” I don’t know what to tell you.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

…

Again, how is it shocking that Adelbern, NOTED TO HATE KRYTANS EXTREMELY, noted to be very stubborn to the point where many Ascalon citizens would rather Rurik be on the Throne BECAUSE THEY THINK RURIK CAN BRING ASCALON TO ANOTHER GOLDEN AGE, noted to refuse help and fiercely cling to what little he has left of his ruined kingdom and refuse to accept defeat…

Would dip more into the crazy pot, possibly murder a Krytan Ambassador asking for (and offering) help, banish and remove any who spoke out against his tactics, and become enraged when he sees what little followers he has left fleeing an overwhelming force.

Also, no. EOTN and GW beyond may help bridge and introduce some of the lore of GW2, but it is NOT guild wars 2. It is Guild wars 1. Was the entire GW1 staff removed and didn’t work on those items at all? I don’t recall ever hearing such.

Quote from the EotN main wiki page: “GW:EN, is the fourth purchasable installment in the original Guild Wars game. It is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2.”
The entire purpose of EotN was to intro the GW2 narrative dude. Had they not done so, we’d have had a 4th campaign, Utopia, to gab about here.
For staff answer, see my post above.

Yes, it is meant to tie GW1 to GW2.

That does not mean it is GW2. I cannot play EOTN or guild wars beyond by loading GW2. It was made by the staff of GW1, for GW1 game, using GW1 assets. See, my issue is because people dislike the fact that Ascalon apparently didn’t win despite having massively weakened armies, a ruined land, ruins instead of cities, and a depleted population. So they try to handwave anything involving EOTN as “Oh, that’s GW2, it can’t be used while talking GW1”. Instead of a quote talking about how it’s meant to “bring the two games together.” find a quote explicitly stating it’s not meant to be taken as part of GW1.

Obsidian.1328:

They never wrote another story for post-Proph Tyria until EotN, are you really trying to suggest that that quote is invalid because it didn’t address the particular political instability of Kryta that was months ago by the time of that quote??

You’re right, I guess whoever wrote that wasn’t being detailed enough.

Not invalid, but definitely a case of “History doesn’t lie, Historians on the other hand…”

We are talking about something wrote by a guy who is currently in Cantha, had left Ascalon, and chooses to live in Kryta (ingame). I don’t think he has current, updated information concerning the status of Ascalon as of that Moment, since Factions and Prophecies don’t take place that far apart. I don’t think he’s in Adelbern’s inner circle, and the Titan Quests don’t imply that Adelbern has suddenly changed EVERY SINGE ASPECT of his personality and suddenly embraces Kryta and is making treaties with them for aid. (Treaties that, as of Gw1 prophecies end, would be hard to do seeing as we just killed the White Mantle Leadership in the shiverpeaks and the ring of fire.)

Dante.1763:

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Looks like every single Writer involved in EOTN worked on Prophecies, and there wasn’t any new faces in that setup.

Kalavier.1097:

Dante.1763:

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Looks like every single Writer involved in EOTN worked on Prophecies, and there wasn’t any new faces in that setup.

That exactly my point. the writers stayed the same throughout the entire game. Not only that but Bobby Stein was the lead writer of the team throughout the whole game too.

I wonder why Jess Lebow or any of the world designers aren’t listed as writers. How much of this dialog should we strip because they didn’t write it. How much lore do you think is left in the gw1 world that we could explore while still accepting balancing changes. There was nothing left.

Also, another thing to debunk the “Titan threat is over, Ascalon won” crowd.

Just because the top leadership dies doesn’t mean an enemy will stop. If they want to keep this argument of “All charr were involved/didn’t mind it”, that means once the Titans were dead, the charr would STILL continue to attack regardless of that fact.

It’s not like the charr were enslaved and thus would stop fighting because they didn’t want to in the first place. Or that they’d be demoralized by it. Given how we are told Ascalons armies and defenses are weakened and withered… I’d see no reason for the Charr to STOP attacking.

Even if they weren’t a single, unified army, we’d see pretty decently sized groups rampaging around anyway. The only way to ‘win’ the war against the charr would be to utterly decimate their numbers/armed forces, drive them out of Ascalon and either rebuild the great northern wall or build a new wall as a hard border.

Dante.1763:

Obsidian.1328:

The big dev shuffle was after Nightfall I believe, but don’t quote me on that. :-/

Well, Heres the writers who wrote Nightfall: From http://gw1101.gtm.guildwars.com/products/nightfall/features/nightfallcredits.php
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Theres only a one person absence in between the two games.

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credit list for GW2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Writers
Angel Leigh McCoy
Bobby Stein
David Wilson
John Ryan
Matt Forbeck
Peter Fries
Scott McGough

The biggest change in staff was between EoTn and when GW2 was published, at least for the writing team ^^

Not pro or con any way here, but Lebow isn’t anywhere on there. Those lists are wrong.

Kalavier.1097:

So a single battle/pair of battles magically just made the entire Charr offensive stop and Ascalon won and wasn’t threatened by the Charr, their home being a wasteland now, their armies and defensives severely weakened…

The main offensive ran through Ascalon to Orr and Kryta, remember? The Charr left behind were meant to mop up the Ascalon hold-outs. If the Charr had “an army of many thousands” waiting to finish off Ascalon, as Rurik stated, how many did Ascalon have left? Does anyone know, or are we all assuming it’s a couple of hundred or so?

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

Becoming a nihilistic murderer is a far cry from being more stubborn.

Again, how is it shocking that Adelbern, NOTED TO HATE KRYTANS EXTREMELY, noted to be very stubborn to the point where many Ascalon citizens would rather Rurik be on the Throne BECAUSE THEY THINK RURIK CAN BRING ASCALON TO ANOTHER GOLDEN AGE, noted to refuse help and fiercely cling to what little he has left of his ruined kingdom and refuse to accept defeat…

Would dip more into the crazy pot, possibly murder a Krytan Ambassador asking for (and offering) help, banish and remove any who spoke out against his tactics, and become enraged when he sees what little followers he has left fleeing an overwhelming force.

Hate to tell you this, but the reason for Ruriks fight with his dad was to get the PC over the Shivs in the first place. It gives the PC the narrative excuse to leave his home and resume the storyline. Otherwise, there is no legitimate reason why an Ascalon hero would be running away at that time.

You’re right, I guess whoever wrote that wasn’t being detailed enough.

Agree

Not invalid, but definitely a case of “History doesn’t lie, Historians on the other hand…”

That’s a heckuva lot of conjecture there…

We are talking about something wrote by a guy who is currently in Cantha, had left Ascalon, and chooses to live in Kryta (ingame). I don’t think he has current, updated information concerning the status of Ascalon as of that Moment, since Factions and Prophecies don’t take place that far apart. I don’t think he’s in Adelbern’s inner circle, and the Titan Quests don’t imply that Adelbern has suddenly changed EVERY SINGE ASPECT of his personality and suddenly embraces Kryta and is making treaties with them for aid. (Treaties that, as of Gw1 prophecies end, would be hard to do seeing as we just killed the White Mantle Leadership in the shiverpeaks and the ring of fire.)

All we know of Ermenred’s timeline is that he left Ascalon after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed and the Charr “conflict” was over in Ascalon. I can’t speak on Adelbern’s diplomacy concerns at that time…

Obsidian.1328:

All we know of Ermenred’s timeline is that he left Ascalon after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed and the Charr “conflict” was over in Ascalon.

Source on that. And no, “recovering” does not mean “it’s over”.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

So a single battle/pair of battles magically just made the entire Charr offensive stop and Ascalon won and wasn’t threatened by the Charr, their home being a wasteland now, their armies and defensives severely weakened…

The main offensive ran through Ascalon to Orr and Kryta, remember? The Charr left behind were meant to mop up the Ascalon hold-outs. If the Charr had “an army of many thousands” waiting to finish off Ascalon, as Rurik stated, how many did Ascalon have left? Does anyone know, or are we all assuming it’s a couple of hundred or so?

We know by the end of Prophecies, which was under a year (As factions happens AFTER prophecies, and both start in the same year), Ascalon’s armies and defenses had withered and weakened considerably. Also, the way I recall it, the offensive into Kryta was repulsed and went back to Ascalon, it was not wiped out.

Obviously, Ascalon did not have the military strength to hold out against such a force for long or with real hope of victory, otherwise Rurik wouldn’t have brought up such concerns.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

Becoming a nihilistic murderer is a far cry from being more stubborn.

I’m saying, Adelbern did what he was planning to do to the first Ambassador, to the second. The second simply didn’t have Rurik standing between them. Are you arguing that Adelbern did not have intent of having the first killed? “Treason” usually holds a death penalty. And both had such evil intentions… offering Aid to Ascalon. Evennia simply asked if Ebon Vanguard could help out Kryta in return.

Would dip more into the crazy pot, possibly murder a Krytan Ambassador asking for (and offering) help, banish and remove any who spoke out against his tactics, and become enraged when he sees what little followers he has left fleeing an overwhelming force.

Hate to tell you this, but the reason for Ruriks fight with his dad was to get the PC over the Shivs in the first place. It gives the PC the narrative excuse to leave his home and resume the storyline. Otherwise, there is no legitimate reason why an Ascalon hero would be running away at that time.

So your argument is “Because the plot wasn’t situated in Ascalon or even FOCUSED on Ascalon, that is the only reason those two fought and there wasn’t a shred of implication that the Charr were massing forces north of the wall again.”?

Did you create Adelbern and Rurik? No? It was clear before that point the two were clashing on things. Especially the subject of Kryta. Rurik wasn’t running away, he was LEADING survivors away to the hope and chance of a better life that didn’t involve threat of being killed by Charr Daily.

Before he went North of the Wall, he didn’t think that. Then he saw the Charr armies and what happened to Rin.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

All we know of Ermenred’s timeline is that he left Ascalon after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed and the Charr “conflict” was over in Ascalon.

Source on that. And no, “recovering” does not mean “it’s over”.

You can recover from an attack but still have the war going on.

Also, yeah. All we know of the guy is he lives in Kryta, and was in Cantha before and/or during Factions. That’s it.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

All we know of Ermenred’s timeline is that he left Ascalon after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed and the Charr “conflict” was over in Ascalon.

Source on that. And no, “recovering” does not mean “it’s over”.

It’s in ED. The “present day” is post-Charr conflict. The word “recovering” could mean many things, sure. I suppose the definition of it suffices though: return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength. “Normal” for Ascalon wasn’t just pre-Searing, but pre-Charr invasion of the north.

Kalavier.1097:

Also, the way I recall it, the offensive into Kryta was repulsed and went back to Ascalon, it was not wiped out.

Where did it say that?

Obviously, Ascalon did not have the military strength to hold out against such a force for long or with real hope of victory, otherwise Rurik wouldn’t have brought up such concerns.

Rurik served the plotline, as did this guy. His incessant babbling foreshadowed the Mursaat, Khilbron, Rurik’ death, and even humanities own arrogance. The writer is giving us cookies here.

I’m saying, Adelbern did what he was planning to do to the first Ambassador, to the second. The second simply didn’t have Rurik standing between them. Are you arguing that Adelbern did not have intent of having the first killed? “Treason” usually holds a death penalty. And both had such evil intentions… offering Aid to Ascalon. Evennia simply asked if Ebon Vanguard could help out Kryta in return.

Perhaps Adelbern distrusted Mantle? One of the major plot devices of Proph is the PC slowly figuring out these guys were not the good guys. Evennia wouldn’t have even been needed to go to Ascalon to aid in the Charr fight had the story followed the orginal intended narrative. That was GW2 writers starting to set up Adelbern as crazy even back then.

So your argument is “Because the plot wasn’t situated in Ascalon or even FOCUSED on Ascalon, that is the only reason those two fought and there wasn’t a shred of implication that the Charr were massing forces north of the wall again.”?

No, the Charr forces massing north of the wall again was for the same reason. Why would Rurik want to pull the PC over the Shivs if there was no clear threat?

You can recover from an attack but still have the war going on.

Can you recover from a war and still have the war going on? If you look up 20th century conflicts in the world all you get is a list of wars…

Obsidian.1328:

It’s in ED. The “present day” is post-Charr conflict. The word “recovering” could mean many things, sure. I suppose the definition of it suffices though: return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength. “Normal” for Ascalon wasn’t just pre-Searing, but pre-Charr invasion of the north.

So “recovering”, but already “return”? That’s not how things work. If someone punched you in your face hard, but you managed to get up, that doesn’t mean “wohoo, fight is over and I won!”.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

Also, the way I recall it, the offensive into Kryta was repulsed and went back to Ascalon, it was not wiped out.

Where did it say that?

“During the Charr invasion after King Jadon fled the throne, Saul and the White Mantle managed to turn the tide of the war against the Charr, sneaking into their camp in the dead of night and assassinating their leaders.

According to official Mantle records, Saul was killed in an ambush during the Charr retreat."

I’d take that as a “The army wasn’t utterly destroyed” From the GW1 wiki white mantle page.

I’m saying, Adelbern did what he was planning to do to the first Ambassador, to the second. The second simply didn’t have Rurik standing between them. Are you arguing that Adelbern did not have intent of having the first killed? “Treason” usually holds a death penalty. And both had such evil intentions… offering Aid to Ascalon. Evennia simply asked if Ebon Vanguard could help out Kryta in return.

Perhaps Adelbern distrusted Mantle? One of the major plot devices of Proph is the PC slowly figuring out these guys were not the good guys. Evennia wouldn’t have even been needed to go to Ascalon to aid in the Charr fight had the story followed the orginal intended narrative. That was GW2 writers starting to set up Adelbern as crazy even back then.

No, it’s actually pretty explicit Adelbern didn’t trust KRYTANS, and never got over the last Guild Wars. They didn’t have to do much of ANYTHING to ‘turn Adelbern crazy’. He already was stubborn to that point as shown by his ‘banishing’ Rurik.

So your argument is “Because the plot wasn’t situated in Ascalon or even FOCUSED on Ascalon, that is the only reason those two fought and there wasn’t a shred of implication that the Charr were massing forces north of the wall again.”?

No, the Charr forces massing north of the wall again was for the same reason. Why would Rurik want to pull the PC over the Shivs if there was no clear threat?

So the Charr forces north of the wall were a very clear and present threat. But they weren’t a big enough threat in the long run to possibly doom Ascalon?

You can recover from an attack but still have the war going on.

Can you recover from a war and still have the war going on? If you look up 20th century conflicts in the world all you get is a list of wars…

How many wars have been ‘over’ yet fighting still continued?

The Charr-Ascalonian conflict happened over 250 years ago. For Americans and United Kingdomers, this is further removed from now than the American Revolution. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to be mad about the Charr-Ascalonian conflict, but I think that Tyrians realize that all the people involved are long dead. I side with the Charr more than the humans, in this case. They claimed the land 250 years ago, and no matter whether it was moral or not, it’s theirs.

Kalamir Of Redshire.7463:

The Charr-Ascalonian conflict happened over 250 years ago. For Americans and United Kingdomers, this is further removed from now than the American Revolution. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to be mad about the Charr-Ascalonian conflict, but I think that Tyrians realize that all the people involved are long dead. I side with the Charr more than the humans, in this case. They claimed the land 250 years ago, and no matter whether it was moral or not, it’s theirs.

No, the Charr-Ascalonian conflict did not happen two-hundred-and-fifty years ago; it has been transpiring for two-hundred-and-fifty years. Dwell on that.

Genesis.8572:

Kalamir Of Redshire.7463:

The Charr-Ascalonian conflict happened over 250 years ago. For Americans and United Kingdomers, this is further removed from now than the American Revolution. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to be mad about the Charr-Ascalonian conflict, but I think that Tyrians realize that all the people involved are long dead. I side with the Charr more than the humans, in this case. They claimed the land 250 years ago, and no matter whether it was moral or not, it’s theirs.

No, the Charr-Ascalonian conflict did not happen two-hundred-and-fifty years ago; it has been transpiring for two-hundred-and-fifty years. Dwell on that.

For 250 years, it’s been transpiring around a single city. IMO, the real war ended with the Foefire. Hell, the way I recall the character wording in the Iron Legion charr intro sounded like the same thing. “Ascalon has paid for what they did in blood.”

Not “They still need to pay.” but “Paid.” past tense. Like they (at least Iron Legion) consider it dealt with mostly.

Kalavier.1097:

For 250 years, it’s been transpiring around a single city. IMO, the real war ended with the Foefire. Hell, the way I recall the character wording in the Iron Legion charr intro sounded like the same thing. “Ascalon has paid for what they did in blood.”

Not “They still need to pay.” but “Paid.” past tense. Like they (at least Iron Legion) consider it dealt with mostly.

It may be a single city but it was still Ascalon as far as Ebonhawke and the Charr were both concerned until very recently. The war transpired that long. Deal thyself with it.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s in ED. The “present day” is post-Charr conflict. The word “recovering” could mean many things, sure. I suppose the definition of it suffices though: return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength. “Normal” for Ascalon wasn’t just pre-Searing, but pre-Charr invasion of the north.

So “recovering”, but already “return”? That’s not how things work. If someone punched you in your face hard, but you managed to get up, that doesn’t mean “wohoo, fight is over and I won!”.

And if someone is recovering from a car accident, that does mean the accident is over. I’m sure that when Manny was “recovering” from his loss to Mayweather, he didn’t think it was just between rounds…

Kalavier.1097:

“During the Charr invasion after King Jadon fled the throne, Saul and the White Mantle managed to turn the tide of the war against the Charr, sneaking into their camp in the dead of night and assassinating their leaders.

According to official Mantle records, Saul was killed in an ambush during the Charr retreat."

I’d take that as a “The army wasn’t utterly destroyed” From the GW1 wiki white mantle page.

That doesn’t say they went back to Ascalon. And Saul didn’t die then, he was carried off by the Mantle never to be seen again. Yes, the Charr weren’t wiped out, but they were soundly defeated, who’s to say how many survived?

No, it’s actually pretty explicit Adelbern didn’t trust KRYTANS, and never got over the last Guild Wars. They didn’t have to do much of ANYTHING to ‘turn Adelbern crazy’. He already was stubborn to that point as shown by his ‘banishing’ Rurik.

…because he wanted to flee anyway, Adelbern was giving him what he wanted.

So the Charr forces north of the wall were a very clear and present threat. But they weren’t a big enough threat in the long run to possibly doom Ascalon?

Oh, possibly very much so. Anything is possible. I’m just going off of what the same writer gives us after that.

How many wars have been ‘over’ yet fighting still continued?

Tons. How many of those declared over were not a foregone conclusion?

Obsidian.1328:

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s in ED. The “present day” is post-Charr conflict. The word “recovering” could mean many things, sure. I suppose the definition of it suffices though: return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength. “Normal” for Ascalon wasn’t just pre-Searing, but pre-Charr invasion of the north.

So “recovering”, but already “return”? That’s not how things work. If someone punched you in your face hard, but you managed to get up, that doesn’t mean “wohoo, fight is over and I won!”.

And if someone is recovering from a car accident, that does mean the accident is over. I’m sure that when Manny was “recovering” from his loss to Mayweather, he didn’t think it was just between rounds…

Context matters.

Like, “The army recovered from the defeat at this battle, and started a counter-attack”

Good example in GW1 is the great northern wall mission. The charr pushed the human forces out, then they RECOVERED and counter attacked successfully, regaining the ruined wall defense points.

In a sense, fits the line from that factions thing perfectly. Ascalon recovered from a charr assault. War still was going on though. Conflict doesn’t have to mean the entire war. Still, it’s written by a guy who is in Cantha, lives in Kryta, and is REALLY doubtful to be in the inner circle of Adelbern. As I’ve tried pointing out to you repeatedly, the “Making new treaties with Kryta and Elonia for trade” Doesn’t hold up AT ALL. We know Adelbern refuses to accept aid from Kryta, and Kryta is, at end of Prophecies, leaderless essentially.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

“During the Charr invasion after King Jadon fled the throne, Saul and the White Mantle managed to turn the tide of the war against the Charr, sneaking into their camp in the dead of night and assassinating their leaders.

According to official Mantle records, Saul was killed in an ambush during the Charr retreat."

I’d take that as a “The army wasn’t utterly destroyed” From the GW1 wiki white mantle page.

That doesn’t say they went back to Ascalon. And Saul didn’t die then, he was carried off by the Mantle never to be seen again. Yes, the Charr weren’t wiped out, but they were soundly defeated, who’s to say how many survived?

I know this. I did the special missions in GW1. I was quoting the wiki page. The Charr leadership was killed in an ambush/sneak attack. At least some of that army survived since it doesn’t state they were wiped out. Only the leadership driving that group forward.

No, it’s actually pretty explicit Adelbern didn’t trust KRYTANS, and never got over the last Guild Wars. They didn’t have to do much of ANYTHING to ‘turn Adelbern crazy’. He already was stubborn to that point as shown by his ‘banishing’ Rurik.

…because he wanted to flee anyway, Adelbern was giving him what he wanted.

Oh, so that giant rant from Adelbern and screaming at Rurik in public was his way of going “Go ahead son, take a chunk of the population and go to Kryta. I don’t mind really!”

So the Charr forces north of the wall were a very clear and present threat. But they weren’t a big enough threat in the long run to possibly doom Ascalon?

Oh, possibly very much so. Anything is possible. I’m just going off of what the same writer gives us after that.

Which actually don’t tell us ingame that the war is won. It simply says the Titan threat is over, but Ascalon’s armies and defenses were weakened and withered and basically Adelbern’s stubbornness was the only thing ‘keeping’ Ascalon alive at that point.

Kalavier.1097:

Context matters.

Like, “The army recovered from the defeat at this battle, and started a counter-attack”

Good example in GW1 is the great northern wall mission. The charr pushed the human forces out, then they RECOVERED and counter attacked successfully, regaining the ruined wall defense points.

In a sense, fits the line from that factions thing perfectly. Ascalon recovered from a charr assault. War still was going on though. Conflict doesn’t have to mean the entire war. Still, it’s written by a guy who is in Cantha, lives in Kryta, and is REALLY doubtful to be in the inner circle of Adelbern. As I’ve tried pointing out to you repeatedly, the “Making new treaties with Kryta and Elonia for trade” Doesn’t hold up AT ALL. We know Adelbern refuses to accept aid from Kryta, and Kryta is, at end of Prophecies, leaderless essentially.

Yes, context does matter. He says they recovered from the Charr conflict, not a Charr conflict.

Where’s the ambiguity?

Which actually don’t tell us ingame that the war is won. It simply says the Titan threat is over, but Ascalon’s armies and defenses were weakened and withered and basically Adelbern’s stubbornness was the only thing ‘keeping’ Ascalon alive at that point.

So the Charr army was weakened and withered after Orr and Kryta, as the Ascalons were, yet it is without a doubt an eventuality that Ascalon falls to the Charr.

You haven’t made a convincing argument for that.

Obsidian.1328:

Yes, context does matter. He says they recovered from the Charr conflict, not a Charr conflict.

Where’s the ambiguity?

The source. That’s the question. Considering it’s written from an IN UNIVERSE perspective, it may be flawed. It definitely is considering the treaties bit, so what says the conflict bit factually 100% is true?

Which actually don’t tell us ingame that the war is won. It simply says the Titan threat is over, but Ascalon’s armies and defenses were weakened and withered and basically Adelbern’s stubbornness was the only thing ‘keeping’ Ascalon alive at that point.

So the Charr army was weakened and withered after Orr and Kryta, as the Ascalons were, yet it is without a doubt an eventuality that Ascalon falls to the Charr.

You haven’t made a convincing argument for that.

The one army in Kryta may be weakened. But they weren’t trying to defend a ruined kingdom (Now a wasteland) with weakened armies, ruined defenses, and an ISOLATIONIST king.

See, the fact Adelbern hates the Krytans so much is what dooms Ascalon. If he had accepted help or not be so hateful, in my opinion, Ascalon could’ve lasted longer. But he turned Ascalon toward Isolation and refusal to accept the situation (which was bad).

Kalavier.1097:

The source. That’s the question. Considering it’s written from an IN UNIVERSE perspective, it may be flawed. It definitely is considering the treaties bit, so what says the conflict bit factually 100% is true?

If there were treaties between them before, there’s little reason to assume there can’t be after. The fact that it is “in universe” just makes it more plausible. Especially when Ermenred outright states that the whole excerpt is “not fiction, but based on interpreted historical fact”. Interpreting winning a battle as winning the war would be quite a shady “interpretation” of the facts…

The one army in Kryta may be weakened. But they weren’t trying to defend a ruined kingdom (Now a wasteland) with weakened armies, ruined defenses, and an ISOLATIONIST king.

No, they were just trying to cross back over the Shivs with no supplies, no leadership, and no plan.

See, the fact Adelbern hates the Krytans so much is what dooms Ascalon. If he had accepted help or not be so hateful, in my opinion, Ascalon could’ve lasted longer. But he turned Ascalon toward Isolation and refusal to accept the situation (which was bad).

If he had accepted Krytan(Mantle) help, Ascalon would have been enslaved by the Mursaat.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

The source. That’s the question. Considering it’s written from an IN UNIVERSE perspective, it may be flawed. It definitely is considering the treaties bit, so what says the conflict bit factually 100% is true?

If there were treaties between them before, there’s little reason to assume there can’t be after. The fact that it is “in universe” just makes it more plausible. Especially when Ermenred outright states that the whole excerpt is “not fiction, but based on interpreted historical fact”. Interpreting winning a battle as winning the war would be quite a shady “interpretation” of the facts…

What treaty was there before the events of Proph but after the Guild Wars besides maybe a peace one?

Also, other historians have skewed the facts(both IRL and in GW). Just look at the “stormcaller triumph” memorial. And he lives in Kryta and was in Cantha when he wrote that passage. He simply may not have had all the facts (communication over those distances wasn’t likely that great. No instant messanging).

The one army in Kryta may be weakened. But they weren’t trying to defend a ruined kingdom (Now a wasteland) with weakened armies, ruined defenses, and an ISOLATIONIST king.

No, they were just trying to cross back over the Shivs with no supplies, no leadership, and no plan.

No leadership perhaps, but supplies and/or idea of how to get home? Unlikely. Saul didn’t wipe out their supply trains or supply stashes, just the leadership.

See, the fact Adelbern hates the Krytans so much is what dooms Ascalon. If he had accepted help or not be so hateful, in my opinion, Ascalon could’ve lasted longer. But he turned Ascalon toward Isolation and refusal to accept the situation (which was bad).

If he had accepted Krytan(Mantle) help, Ascalon would have been enslaved by the Mursaat.

Which is applying out of universe knowledge to justify in universe stubborn hate.

NOBODY at that time, besides the small shining blade forces, KNEW the White Mantle was Evil. So saying that Adelbern is justified in threatening to kill an ambassador offering aid and refusing to consider going to Kryta for recovery or help, is saying he somehow knew the White Mantle was evil entirely and had knowledge nobody else did.

We can say “Looking back, it’s a good thing he may have refused that help”, but we can’t say at that exact moment he had good reasons.

Also, Enslaved by Mursaat? Maybe. But it’d have survived. Also I (personally) think they wouldn’t bother heavily with Ascalon as firmly as they did Kryta. It’s a very, VERY long hike from Ascalon to the bloodstone in the Maguuma, and wouldn’t be worth it.

Hell, from what we know, they actually didn’t even bother the Ascalon settlement much at all until the Civil War went into full swing.

Kalavier.1097:

What treaty was there before the events of Proph but after the Guild Wars besides maybe a peace one?

Trade treaties before Proph and before the 3rd guild war, not after.

Also, other historians have skewed the facts(both IRL and in GW). Just look at the “stormcaller triumph” memorial. And he lives in Kryta and was in Cantha when he wrote that passage. He simply may not have had all the facts (communication over those distances wasn’t likely that great. No instant messanging).

Ermenred’s first appearance in LA was summer 2007…around the same time as EotN’s release. It was known ANet writer’s were using him as a joke NPC, which would also help downplay anything related to him…like claiming the war was over in Ascalon. Do you not think the new writers read Empire Divided themselves? Or that the timing of his appearance was incidental?

No leadership perhaps, but supplies and/or idea of how to get home? Unlikely. Saul didn’t wipe out their supply trains or supply stashes, just the leadership.

If you get to assume something that you can’t see in-game, then so do I: the Charr didn’t wipe out Ascalon’s supply lines, they could still bring in supplies from the west and south regularly…

Which is applying out of universe knowledge to justify in universe stubborn hate.

NOBODY at that time, besides the small shining blade forces, KNEW the White Mantle was Evil. So saying that Adelbern is justified in threatening to kill an ambassador offering aid and refusing to consider going to Kryta for recovery or help, is saying he somehow knew the White Mantle was evil entirely and had knowledge nobody else did.

We can say “Looking back, it’s a good thing he may have refused that help”, but we can’t say at that exact moment he had good reasons.

Also, Enslaved by Mursaat? Maybe. But it’d have survived. Also I (personally) think they wouldn’t bother heavily with Ascalon as firmly as they did Kryta. It’s a very, VERY long hike from Ascalon to the bloodstone in the Maguuma, and wouldn’t be worth it.

Hell, from what we know, they actually didn’t even bother the Ascalon settlement much at all until the Civil War went into full swing.

Not exactly. I’m saying the writer used both Adelbern’s hatred for Kryta, and his straining relationship with his son, as the means to carry the PC away from Ascalon and over the Shivs. Technically, I suppose that is “out of universe” knowledge, but that was the real reason for it anyway.

I’m not saying Adelbern knew the Mantle’s true intentions, I’m just saying it’s a good thing he didn’t let them help. Death beats slavery any day. You’re right the Mursaat may not have had the resources to really get entrenched in Ascalon, who’s to say. But they would have been subject to Mantle rule regardless.

A little off topic, but it relates to the argument:

Perhaps the most remarkable difference between Kryta and Ascalon is how they each dealt with the Charr threat. Kryta’s king fled the country, and they willingly let themselves become virtual slaves in order to survive it and see another day. Ascalon’s king basically says kitten it, we’re not running from this even if it kills us all. Minus Rurik and the refugees of course.

It’s rather telling of ANet’s future writers that they decide to validate Kryta and incriminate Ascalon. Lesson learned: safety is more important than freedom.

Obsidian.1328:

Perhaps the most remarkable difference between Kryta and Ascalon is how they each dealt with the Charr threat. Kryta’s king fled the country, and they willingly let themselves become virtual slaves in order to survive it and see another day. Ascalon’s king basically says kitten it, we’re not running from this even if it kills us all. Minus Rurik and the refugees of course.

It’s rather telling of ANet’s future writers that they decide to validate Kryta and incriminate Ascalon. Lesson learned: safety is more important than freedom.

Fun fact – dead are not free. They are dead. Adelbern was a horrible example of the king, he not just completely failed as leader and lost his war due to his foolish stubbornness, but he also betrayed and killed even those who managed to survive his failures.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

What treaty was there before the events of Proph but after the Guild Wars besides maybe a peace one?

Trade treaties before Proph and before the 3rd guild war, not after.

You really think Adelbren kept all those intact? He hated Kryta.

No leadership perhaps, but supplies and/or idea of how to get home? Unlikely. Saul didn’t wipe out their supply trains or supply stashes, just the leadership.

If you get to assume something that you can’t see in-game, then so do I: the Charr didn’t wipe out Ascalon’s supply lines, they could still bring in supplies from the west and south regularly…

What supply lines? Adelbern hated Kryta and refused any aid or such from them, and the way to Elona was through the crystal desert and Desolation.

Not exactly. I’m saying the writer used both Adelbern’s hatred for Kryta, and his straining relationship with his son, as the means to carry the PC away from Ascalon and over the Shivs. Technically, I suppose that is “out of universe” knowledge, but that was the real reason for it anyway.

I’m not saying Adelbern knew the Mantle’s true intentions, I’m just saying it’s a good thing he didn’t let them help. Death beats slavery any day. You’re right the Mursaat may not have had the resources to really get entrenched in Ascalon, who’s to say. But they would have been subject to Mantle rule regardless.

So Adelbern hates Krytans, yet you are saying he’s openly trading with them at the same time?

Yeah, but my point is less about whether that ambassador had good or bad intentions, and more of Adelberns treatment of him… and how easily he could’ve treated Eveinna like that, only now Rurik can’t protect the ambassador.

A little off topic, but it relates to the argument:

Perhaps the most remarkable difference between Kryta and Ascalon is how they each dealt with the Charr threat. Kryta’s king fled the country, and they willingly let themselves become virtual slaves in order to survive it and see another day. Ascalon’s king basically says kitten it, we’re not running from this even if it kills us all. Minus Rurik and the refugees of course.

It’s rather telling of ANet’s future writers that they decide to validate Kryta and incriminate Ascalon. Lesson learned: safety is more important than freedom.

As I recall, it was very subtle, very stealthy take over. The White Mantle literally stepped in and kicked the Charr out, while the government was in shambles and bankrupt (the king had taken the savings with him IIRC). They simply took the government seat and for the most part, were decent. Until the events of the flameseeker prophecies.

I don’t see how it’s “validating what Kryta did and saying Ascalon was bad”.

Kryta had no government, no leadership. White Mantle simply stepped forth, protected the land and offered leadership. Until the shining blade and the heroes exposed them, they actually did a decent job at it and were very good at covering up the bad things. After the shining blade gained power and influence… then the white mantle went nasty.

Rednik.3809:

Fun fact – dead are not free. They are dead. Adelbern was a horrible example of the king, he not just completely failed as leader and lost his war due to his foolish stubbornness, but he also betrayed and killed even those who managed to survive his failures.

As I said once to somebody trying to say humanity should get Adelbern to have the ghosts help them.

“There are no true sons of Ascalon left. The only ones who survived were either banished, exiled, or willingly left alongside either group.”

I take the lesson as more like this personally. “If you stubbornly refuse help, change, or accept the situation, you will fail and/or die.”

Adelbern style Ascalonians are present in GW2 in the form of the seperatists… who demand or try to force humans and charr into conflict again. Even though peace is INSANELY good and benefiting of Ebonhawke, they want only continued war.

Sorry for the late response, been away awhile.

Kalavier.1097:

You really think Adelbern kept all those intact? He hated Kryta.

Perhaps you’re right on this one.

What supply lines? Adelbern hated Kryta and refused any aid or such from them, and the way to Elona was through the crystal desert and Desolation.

I didn’t mean Kryta or Elona. The Deldrimor were allied with them, and the bulk of Ascalon(which we don’t get to see) was south of the explorable area.

Yeah, but my point is less about whether that ambassador had good or bad intentions, and more of Adelberns treatment of him… and how easily he could’ve treated Eveinna like that, only now Rurik can’t protect the ambassador.

Zain’s intentions were probably why Adelbern treated him as such: 1) He was Mantle and wanted to convert Ascalons to worshipping Mursaat, 2) He was known to be handing out Eldritch sextants to Ascalon merchants for reasons never explained, and 3) he bribed Ascalon guards for protection. Besides, Tydus even stated: “King Adelbern has too much respect for the old laws to harm Ambassador Zain without cause.” Distrusting him didn’t mean he wanted him dead without cause.

As I recall, it was very subtle, very stealthy take over. The White Mantle literally stepped in and kicked the Charr out, while the government was in shambles and bankrupt (the king had taken the savings with him IIRC). They simply took the government seat and for the most part, were decent. Until the events of the flameseeker prophecies.

Abject slavery and beheading innocent Krytans on the Bloodstone was decent? I suppose it is if you value order over liberty. :-/

I don’t see how it’s “validating what Kryta did and saying Ascalon was bad”.

ANet needed to have humanity down to one kingdom, villifying Adelbern and transferring Ascalon to the Charr was the easiest way to do that…it was already burning. It was a design decision based on racial parity(every “faction” in GW2 has just one culture pretty much)and on design time limitations(the cost of keeping Ascalon human and designing the Charr homelands somewhere northeast was too exhaustive; I mean, no Cantha after 3 years wasn’t just a diplomatic decision on ANets part, the graphical detail of GW2 Tyria takes more time and effort than you think).

Kryta had no government, no leadership. White Mantle simply stepped forth, protected the land and offered leadership. Until the shining blade and the heroes exposed them, they actually did a decent job at it and were very good at covering up the bad things. After the shining blade gained power and influence… then the white mantle went nasty.

Right. The Mursaat and Mantle were benevolent protectors. Said no one ever.

I take the lesson as more like this personally. “If you stubbornly refuse help, change, or accept the situation, you will fail and/or die.”

That change and “help” was at the price of Ascalons independence. Again, death is better than slavery. Adelbern did accept his situation, he was willing to die to keep his country free. In fact, the Shining Blade refused to accept change and the Mantle “situation”, and it was the right thing to do. The only help they accepted was freely given, not tied to chains. By the way, change in and of itself isn’t inherently good. It can be good and bad…depending on the situation.

Adelbern style Ascalonians are present in GW2 in the form of the seperatists… who demand or try to force humans and charr into conflict again. Even though peace is INSANELY good and benefiting of Ebonhawke, they want only continued war.

Yeah…peace is better than never seeing your home again. If a gang came into your neighborhood and started killing and burning everyone, with the intent to exterminate you and everyone you know, and take over your community, would you just walk calmly out the door and away with no thought of defiance? I hope not. Where would people like the Irish or Greeks or even the Ukrainians be today had they just let the simple passage of time be enough to discourage their right to their own land?

sheesh

Rednik.3809:

Fun fact – dead are not free. They are dead. Adelbern was a horrible example of the king, he not just completely failed as leader and lost his war due to his foolish stubbornness, but he also betrayed and killed even those who managed to survive his failures.

Fun fact – GW2 Adelbern =/= GW1 Adelbern. Learn to think critically and find reasons why writers and narrative designers do what they do. GW1 Adelbern was stubborn and a bad father, but he was no genocidal maniac. That’s GW2 writing. He’s a fall-guy, used to validate the Charr hegemony in Ascalon. Nothing more.

Obsidian.1328:

Fun fact – GW2 Adelbern =/= GW1 Adelbern. Learn to think critically and find reasons why writers and narrative designers do what they do. GW1 Adelbern was stubborn and a bad father, but he was no genocidal maniac. That’s GW2 writing. He’s a fall-guy, used to validate the Charr hegemony in Ascalon. Nothing more.

Pls stop making things up. You have proofs about GW1 lore writing team being fired and not participating in developing of GW2 or what? Or maybe there was a psychiatrist at the end of GW1 campaign who gives you a medical paper with stamp about Adelbern being perfectly sane and normal person?
You don’t like Ascalon downfall – fine, but stop trying to rewrite game lore around your headcanon.