Guild Wars 2

Obsidian.1328:

I didn’t mean Kryta or Elona. The Deldrimor were allied with them, and the bulk of Ascalon(which we don’t get to see) was south of the explorable area.

Ah yeah, Deldrimor who are dealing with civil war, and the southern part of Ascalon which was just as burnt as the playable area.

Zain’s intentions were probably why Adelbern treated him as such: 1) He was Mantle and wanted to convert Ascalons to worshipping Mursaat, 2) He was known to be handing out Eldritch sextants to Ascalon merchants for reasons never explained, and 3) he bribed Ascalon guards for protection. Besides, Tydus even stated: “King Adelbern has too much respect for the old laws to harm Ambassador Zain without cause.” Distrusting him didn’t mean he wanted him dead without cause.

Zain’s intentions were to offer aid. He spouted typical white mantle lines, but his primary job was to offer aid, not convert everybody. The Sextants, as I see, were never explained, and bribing guards to ensure he has protection in Ascalon, which is led by an anti-krytan king? Not shocking. Also, that quest comes after the Fort Ranik mission. Which is after Adelbern almost had Zain arrested for treason.

Abject slavery and beheading innocent Krytans on the Bloodstone was decent? I suppose it is if you value order over liberty. :-/

Did I say “THE WHITE MANTLE WERE GOOD”? No. I simply said they were GOOD AT COVERING THEIR TRACKS. Note white mantle page from GW1 wiki. "To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

ANet needed to have humanity down to one kingdom, villifying Adelbern and transferring Ascalon to the Charr was the easiest way to do that…it was already burning. It was a design decision based on racial parity(every “faction” in GW2 has just one culture pretty much)and on design time limitations(the cost of keeping Ascalon human and designing the Charr homelands somewhere northeast was too exhaustive;

Ascalon was burning, it wasn’t going to last long while Adelbern refused all help and the Charr were not soundly defeated and driven back for good.

Right. The Mursaat and Mantle were benevolent protectors. Said no one ever.

“To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

Gw1 manual. Again, the way it came across to me was for the most part, Krytans accepted the Mantle and weren’t bothered. It was only two years they held control before the player arrived, and they were pretty good at covering their kitten during those years.

That change and “help” was at the price of Ascalons independence. Again, death is better than slavery. Adelbern did accept his situation, he was willing to die to keep his country free. In fact, the Shining Blade refused to accept change and the Mantle “situation”, and it was the right thing to do. The only help they accepted was freely given, not tied to chains. By the way, change in and of itself isn’t inherently good. It can be good and bad…depending on the situation.

They never actually state Ascalon had to worship the mursaat and convert to receive aid. Zain was there to offer it. In fact, nothing about Zain’s message strikes me as a “Convert and get help, refuse and die.” Given how he freely gave supplies to the Orphanage and was wanting to offer even additional help. He didn’t make the lady running it convert.

Yeah…peace is better than never seeing your home again. If a gang came into your neighborhood and started killing and burning everyone, with the intent to exterminate you and everyone you know, and take over your community, would you just walk calmly out the door and away with no thought of defiance? I hope not.

If the area is dangerous and unlivable, and my family would be more likely to die horribly then to live long lives, I’d relocate. If I was an Ascalonian, I’d choose to relocate to someplace I KNOW can support my family, then to live in a wasteland and barely surviving. I’d follow Rurik across the mountains.

If I was in Ebonhawke, I’d embrace peace over trying to continue a long, bitter war. I’d rather see my family and friends live in peace without having to worry about siege rounds smashing houses. The Separatists don’t want to see Ascalon retaken. They just want to see more endless war, which would mean more and more and MORE dead humans.

Obsidian.1328:

Fun fact – GW2 Adelbern =/= GW1 Adelbern. Learn to think critically and find reasons why writers and narrative designers do what they do. GW1 Adelbern was stubborn and a bad father, but he was no genocidal maniac. That’s GW2 writing. He’s a fall-guy, used to validate the Charr hegemony in Ascalon. Nothing more.

Stubborn, refuse to accept loss or defeat, hate krytans with a passion… Doesn’t seem like he changed that much, just that his crazy parts got worse as time went on.

Adelbern in GW1 refused to accept any and all aid offered, simply because of the nation it was coming from. Note, then Tydus was talking about those Sextant, he didn’t say “White Mantle plot.” he said “KRYTAN plot.” Adelbern was the reason Ascalon finally died.

Rednik.3809:

You have proofs about GW1 lore writing team being fired and not participating in developing of GW2 or what?

Uhmm…yes? It’s common knowledge the person who wrote Proph hasn’t been with ANet since Nightfall. Do your research.

Obsidian.1328:

Uhmm…yes? It’s common knowledge the person who wrote Proph hasn’t been with ANet since Nightfall. Do your research.

So Anet had only one lore-writing person and he was fired after that? Marvelous story indeed, but not very believable.

Kalavier.1097:

Ah yeah, Deldrimor who are dealing with civil war, and the southern part of Ascalon which was just as burnt as the playable area.

That war ended when Dagnar Stonepate died in Sorrow’s Furnace at the PC’s hand, the rest of the Stone Summit fled to the far Shivs. Besides, why would you say Kryta could have given Ascalon aid if they were in a civil war too? Can’t have it both ways.
Also, If the writer had meant to portray Ascalon as both 100% scorched earth and 100% unsupply-able, why did so many stick around? Adelbern’s will?? Did they all eat ash and drink tar?? You should be careful not to take visual representations of carnage as indicative of RL supply issues. How did we have anything to eat on the Fire Islands? or the Realm of Torment? What did the Deldrimor eat while being besieged by the Stone Summit for that matter? WHY IS THERE NO FOOD AROUND?? Really?

Zain’s intentions were to offer aid. He spouted typical white mantle lines, but his primary job was to offer aid, not convert everybody. The Sextants, as I see, were never explained, and bribing guards to ensure he has protection in Ascalon, which is led by an anti-krytan king? Not shocking. Also, that quest comes after the Fort Ranik mission. Which is after Adelbern almost had Zain arrested for treason.

His primary job was to bring Ascalon into the Mantle fold, offering aid was a means to an end. If a diplomat from a country you were just at war with was outside your capital offering free aid, while spouting false-god rhetoric, handing out unknown magical items, and bribing the army…I think I’d have him arrested too.

Did I say “THE WHITE MANTLE WERE GOOD”? No. I simply said they were GOOD AT COVERING THEIR TRACKS. Note white mantle page from GW1 wiki. "To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

From the same wiki page: “It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones.” The Krytans basically gave up their freedom to survive. Also from that page: “They have even sent an ambassador to Ascalon to further their teachings in other lands.” Thanks for guiding me to that page, it backs up my earlier point nicely.

Ascalon was burning, it wasn’t going to last long while Adelbern refused all help and the Charr were not soundly defeated and driven back for good.

Nor were all the Ascalons. Tell me, how did the Charr survive in Ascalon if it was all burning?

“To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

Said no one ever… in real-life, sillypants.

They never actually state Ascalon had to worship the mursaat and convert to receive aid. Zain was there to offer it. In fact, nothing about Zain’s message strikes me as a “Convert and get help, refuse and die.” Given how he freely gave supplies to the Orphanage and was wanting to offer even additional help. He didn’t make the lady running it convert.

See above. Yeah…Zain didn’t outright state “I’m here to convert you all!” Are you kidding? Now that would have got him arrested for sure.

If the area is dangerous and unlivable, and my family would be more likely to die horribly then to live long lives, I’d relocate. If I was an Ascalonian, I’d choose to relocate to someplace I KNOW can support my family, then to live in a wasteland and barely surviving. I’d follow Rurik across the mountains.

If I was in Ebonhawke, I’d embrace peace over trying to continue a long, bitter war. I’d rather see my family and friends live in peace without having to worry about siege rounds smashing houses. The Separatists don’t want to see Ascalon retaken. They just want to see more endless war, which would mean more and more and MORE dead humans.

And that is why not everyone is a soldier. They fight for others who can not, or will not, fight. Wherever you live, just know that there is someone who stands on a line somewhere who ensures your safety and peace. Remember Chamberlain’s folly.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

Uhmm…yes? It’s common knowledge the person who wrote Proph hasn’t been with ANet since Nightfall. Do your research.

So Anet had only one lore-writing person and he was fired after that? Marvelous story indeed, but not very believable.

And yet it’s still true…amazing! He left after Factions, not fired by the way. He was the sole writer for Proph, and lead writer for Factions. Do you want his name? Or should I let you find out for yourself?

Obsidian.1328:

Do you want his name?

Ofc. With sources about him being only writer of Prophecies lore and characters.

Obsidian.1328:

That war ended when Dagnar Stonepate died in Sorrow’s Furnace at the PC’s hand, the rest of the Stone Summit fled to the far Shivs. Besides, why would you say Kryta could have given Ascalon aid if they were in a civil war too? Can’t have it both ways.
Also, If the writer had meant to portray Ascalon as both 100% scorched earth and 100% unsupply-able, why did so many stick around? Adelbern’s will?? Did they all eat ash and drink tar?? You should be careful not to take visual representations of carnage as indicative of RL supply issues. How did we have anything to eat on the Fire Islands? or the Realm of Torment? What did the Deldrimor eat while being besieged by the Stone Summit for that matter? WHY IS THERE NO FOOD AROUND?? Really?

Dagnar didn’t die at Sorrow’s Furnace, and IIRC, that happened AFTER the Lich was defeated (And it was a combo of both that results in a lot of Sorrow’s Furnance fleeing). Still, it comes across as if Adelbern made no efforts to contact other nations.

Krytan was offering Aid before the civil war (As White Mantle), and then in War in Kryta, what the shining blade/Queen’s forces were saying was “You help us out right now military-wise, WE WILL return the favor and help you out military and food-wise.”

Ascalon was a wasteland, the manual is pretty kitten explicit. Sure, you can find food and water (Some theorize humans ate Charr during that period), but not a lot. Would you live in the middle of the Australian desert, or in the forests of the American east coast?

Obviously, we packed our own food for realm of torment and ring of fire. Deldrimor would’ve eaten food that was stockpiled (The point of a siege is they CAN’T get food from outside…)

His primary job was to bring Ascalon into the Mantle fold, offering aid was a means to an end. If a diplomat from a country you were just at war with was outside your capital offering free aid, while spouting false-god rhetoric, handing out unknown magical items, and bribing the army…I think I’d have him arrested too.

Note, he was almost arrested after handing food and supplies to an ORPHANAGE. The unknown items were AFTER that. Meanwhile Rurik’s response. Also was before the bribing as well from what I can read.

" Prince Rurik: “Greetings Ambassador Zain. Let me be the first to welcome you to Ascalon.”
Ambassador Zain: “Ah, Prince Rurik. I thank you for your kind words. I will admit, I was nervous about this meeting. Our initial reception here in Ascalon City has been…less than warm.”
Prince Rurik: “So I have heard. I apologize for my father. He means well and does what he thinks is best for his country, but sometimes his stubborn memory of the last Guild War gets in his way.”
Ambassador Zain: “The days of war between our two nations are over. We are here in the name of Kryta to give aid to Ascalon. We ask for nothing in return, and wish only to be of service.”
Prince Rurik: “We would be foolish to allow our pride to stand in the way of such a generous offer.”
Ambassador Zain: “Now I see why the people of Ascalon so admire you, Rurik. When it is your turn, you will be a good king. A good king indeed.”
Prince Rurik: “Thank you, Ambassador. Now I must take my leave. I will talk with the king. Perhaps I can change his mind and gain you access to the city.”

From the same wiki page: “It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones.” The Krytans basically gave up their freedom to survive. Also from that page: “They have even sent an ambassador to Ascalon to further their teachings in other lands.” Thanks for guiding me to that page, it backs up my earlier point nicely.

If they were so obviously enslaving, the shining blade would have exploded into a huge force. No, for the two years, they covered their tracks well enough the general population didn’t know kitten was up.

Nor were all the Ascalons. Tell me, how did the Charr survive in Ascalon if it was all burning?

Bringing their own food from the north, depending on the sources they ate humans as well.

And that is why not everyone is a soldier. They fight for others who can not, or will not, fight. Wherever you live, just know that there is someone who stands on a line somewhere who ensures your safety and peace. Remember Chamberlain’s folly.

Even soldiers know that sometimes, defending an area is pointless. Ascalon was ruined. It’s borders closed by Adelbern’s isolation.
You would rather stay in Ascalon in that condition, instead of seeking a better life that isn’t besieged by Charr daily? Instead of clean rivers and grasslands, ash covered wastes and tar for children to play in?

Rednik.3809:

You don’t like Ascalon downfall – fine, but stop trying to rewrite game lore around your headcanon.

Ad hominem plus Appeal to emotion, two logical fallacies in one post. A discussion in lore is done by exchanging opinions, arguments and proof for the latter. How about some arguments from you?
Headcanon, funny.

Kalavier.1097:

Even soldiers know that sometimes, defending an area is pointless. Ascalon was ruined. It’s borders closed by Adelbern’s isolation.
You would rather stay in Ascalon in that condition, instead of seeking a better life that isn’t besieged by Charr daily? Instead of clean rivers and grasslands, ash covered wastes and tar for children to play in?

The purpose of the Krytan ambassador was most likely to lure the Ascalonians to Kryta so that the Unseen could search for The Chosen among them, therefore the instincts of Adelbern not to trust him were quite correct, although for the wrong reasons.

Ascalon hadn’t fallen at the end of the GW1 timeline, 1080, and the last quest we get to play shows a defeat of a Charr army (yes, those groups represent an army in GW1) together with their Titan gods. The GW2 lore was one possibility of what could happen, not necessarily the only one. It was created to turn the Charr into a playable species, and clearly overdone, which shows favouritism towards the Charr in my opinion.

This quest also shows that Adelbern was not the madman people claim he already was during the times of GW1 (his lines in The Last Day dawns have been posted here often enough, i won’t do that again). That, also, is GW2 storywriting. And yes there were people in Ascalon who believed their king, that they could defend themselves, that there was no reason to leave with Rurik. And how many of those who left did reach safety in Kryta? Only to get into a civil war with White Mantle Inquisition destroying their settlement. Of course leaving gave you a chance to survive, no doubt about that. Chances were also high you got clubbed by an Ettin along the way.

Frosch.7809:

The purpose of the Krytan ambassador was most likely to lure the Ascalonians to Kryta so that the Unseen could search for The Chosen among them, therefore the instincts of Adelbern not to trust him were quite correct, although for the wrong reasons.

However, the Ascalon settlement in Kryta was not tested for Chosen during their stay there… at all. Infact, They lived peacefully in Kryta and had no issues with the White Mantle until the civil war in GW beyond. We personally do the test of the chosen, and we aren’t close to the Settlement.

Ascalon hadn’t fallen at the end of the GW1 timeline, 1080, and the last quest we get to play shows a defeat of a Charr army (yes, those groups represent an army in GW1) together with their Titan gods. The GW2 lore was one possibility of what could happen, not necessarily the only one. It was created to turn the Charr into a playable species, and clearly overdone, which shows favouritism towards the Charr in my opinion.

Ascalon was still a wasteland, and the way people describe the Charr(the anti-charr people here), they would continue fighting. And Ascalon’s army and defenses were withered and greatly weakened since Rurik left Ascalon/

This quest also shows that Adelbern was not the madman people claim he already was during the times of GW1 (his lines in The Last Day dawns have been posted here often enough, i won’t do that again). That, also, is GW2 storywriting. And yes there were people in Ascalon who believed their king, that they could defend themselves, that there was no reason to leave with Rurik. And how many of those who left did reach safety in Kryta? Only to get into a civil war with White Mantle Inquisition destroying their settlement. Of course leaving gave you a chance to survive, no doubt about that. Chances were also high you got clubbed by an Ettin along the way.

One line does not remove everything he previously did or said. One line does not magically make him a changed man. Later on in Beyond, we see him keeping the Shining blade ambassador outside of the city, and she personally says he would rather all Krytans die before listening to her. EOTN had the same writers as Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. The biggest writing staff changes happened from EOTN to GW2.

And honestly, the only surviving Ascalons are directly descended from Rurik’s group or the Ebonhawke group.

Oh, and while some believed in Adelbern, it’s stated explicitly in the manual…

“Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age. "

That a lot of people wanted to see Rurik take the throne, and thought with Rurik as king, Ascalon would prosper again.

Even if Adelbern, in the end, grew calmer, he was still leading an isolationist state. The only way for Ascalon to have survived IMO is IF they had accepted help.

Frosch.7809:

Ad hominem plus Appeal to emotion, two logical fallacies in one post. A discussion in lore is done by exchanging opinions, arguments and proof for the latter. How about some arguments from you?
Headcanon, funny.

My arguments are named “Gw2 and current lore”. For some reason I think they are quite solid.

Kalavier.1097:

Dagnar didn’t die at Sorrow’s Furnace, and IIRC, that happened AFTER the Lich was defeated (And it was a combo of both that results in a lot of Sorrow’s Furnance fleeing). Still, it comes across as if Adelbern made no efforts to contact other nations.

You’re right, his forces were defeated, but he himself was not killed. My mistake.

Krytan was offering Aid before the civil war (As White Mantle), and then in War in Kryta, what the shining blade/Queen’s forces were saying was “You help us out right now military-wise, WE WILL return the favor and help you out military and food-wise.”

I wasn’t talking about WiK, the Shining Blade were Krytans. Krytans fighting Kyrtans = civil war…weather the general populace knew about it or not is irrelevant.

Ascalon was a wasteland, the manual is pretty kitten explicit. Sure, you can find food and water (Some theorize humans ate Charr during that period), but not a lot. Would you live in the middle of the Australian desert, or in the forests of the American east coast?

If my home was the Australian desert? Yes. Why wouldn’t I? The Searing didn’t sterilize the land, it was recovering. There were patches of green all over, you just had to find them. I don’t think ANet had the time or resources to create a new “regrowing” Ascalon map after a couple of years just to validate that. And just because the world map of Ascalon was brown doesn’t mean it’s lifeless. The Crystal Desert was all yellow from space, yet there were plenty of Oases around.

Obviously, we packed our own food for realm of torment and ring of fire. Deldrimor would’ve eaten food that was stockpiled (The point of a siege is they CAN’T get food from outside…)

So, Ascalon didn’t have any stockpiled food? And since when was Ascalon besieged? Overran is not the same thing, the bulk of the Charr army passed through Ascalon like a freight train on their way to Orr, but they didn’t seige the place up. They didn’t even have it surrounded.

Note, he was almost arrested after handing food and supplies to an ORPHANAGE. The unknown items were AFTER that. Meanwhile Rurik’s response. Also was before the bribing as well from what I can read.
~ Zain/Rurik convo snipped for space ~

But he was asking for something in return…that’s the whole point. When you set out to convert a nation to your own religion, you don’t tell the guys in charge you’re going to do that. That would be really stupid. Rurik had no reason to disbelieve Zain, but Zain was lying to him nonetheless.

If they were so obviously enslaving, the shining blade would have exploded into a huge force. No, for the two years, they covered their tracks well enough the general population didn’t know kitten was up.

The Mantle just saved them from the Charr, most were too scared to say anything. They didn’t want to seem ungrateful perhaps? I don’t know, I don’t understand the Krytan psyche here…all they did was trade liberty for life here. To say no Krytan theoretically knew something was wrong with the Mantle is a pretty large delusion.

Bringing their own food from the north, depending on the sources they ate humans as well.

If the Charr can bring in supplies from “the north somewhere” then the Ascalons can bring in supplies “from the south somewhere”. You simply cannot suppose it’s possible for one and not the other.

Even soldiers know that sometimes, defending an area is pointless. Ascalon was ruined. It’s borders closed by Adelbern’s isolation.
You would rather stay in Ascalon in that condition, instead of seeking a better life that isn’t besieged by Charr daily? Instead of clean rivers and grasslands, ash covered wastes and tar for children to play in?

If it was my home, of course I would. It’s borders weren’t closed, they were just undefined. The PC only ever got to explore maybe a quarter of the whole kingdom.

Kalavier.1097:

However, the Ascalon settlement in Kryta was not tested for Chosen during their stay there… at all. Infact, They lived peacefully in Kryta and had no issues with the White Mantle until the civil war in GW beyond. We personally do the test of the chosen, and we aren’t close to the Settlement.

The Test of the Chosen happened once a year in summer…it would have been incredibly coincidental had the Ascalon Refugees arrived on that same day. Or even week.

One line does not remove everything he previously did or said. One line does not magically make him a changed man. Later on in Beyond, we see him keeping the Shining blade ambassador outside of the city, and she personally says he would rather all Krytans die before listening to her. EOTN had the same writers as Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. The biggest writing staff changes happened from EOTN to GW2.

You just messed up. If one line can’t remove everything he previously did, then one line can’t condemn him either. The one thing that every Adelbern critic points to was his banishment of Rurik. Beyond, along with all of EotN, is GW2 setup and can’t be included as evidence…Ascalon’s fate in the future GW2 narrative had already been decided by ANet by then(@2006). What other “bad” things did Adelbern do, prior to GW2 development, besides kick his son out? Try to arrest a Mantle rep? That’s it? Please.

Oh, and while some believed in Adelbern, it’s stated explicitly in the manual…

“Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age. "

That a lot of people wanted to see Rurik take the throne, and thought with Rurik as king, Ascalon would prosper again.

Even if Adelbern, in the end, grew calmer, he was still leading an isolationist state. The only way for Ascalon to have survived IMO is IF they had accepted help.

He did accept help…from the PC to go kill their gods the Titans. He even asks you to help at the party in Droknar’s at the end of Proph.

Adelbern’s popularity was hit and miss. I could just as easily come up with quotes from NPC’s who swore he was the bestest king evar! The narrative pushes the PC toward Rurik because it serves the overall story, not the other way around. The writer needed some way to convince the PC to leave his home and get on with the real meat and potatoes of the story. Ruriks fight with his dad was it. Had the writer made it so that the PC simply leaves on his own volition, it would have been bad storytelling. Why on earth should I leave my home when everyone else is staying? Oh okay, I’m following the prince out…that sounds better. His dad is such a meanie anyway!

Think about it.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

Do you want his name?

Ofc. With sources about him being only writer of Prophecies lore and characters.

It was a rhetorical question, I’m not going to do your work for you. Either look on my past posts, research the game better than just a “wiki skim”, or even better, go outside official ANet channels.

There you go, I gave you 3 places to start. Good luck! =D

Obsidian.1328:

It was a rhetorical question, I’m not going to do your work for you. Either look on my past posts, research the game better than just a “wiki skim”, or even better, go outside official ANet channels.

There you go, I gave you 3 places to start. Good luck! =D

So you asking me to search proofs for your point? Nice try, but not gonna work. You made a statement about mysterious lore writer, so it’s your job to prove it.
E incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat.

Obsidian.1328:

I wasn’t talking about WiK, the Shining Blade were Krytans. Krytans fighting Kyrtans = civil war…weather the general populace knew about it or not is irrelevant.

As of that stage, the shining blade were basically a group of bandits. If we really went that way, we’d say that Ascalon was in civil war before the searing because of the royalists!

If my home was the Australian desert? Yes. Why wouldn’t I? The Searing didn’t sterilize the land, it was recovering. There were patches of green all over, you just had to find them.

What green spots were in post searing Ascalon? I explored the entire area for 100% map completion, and I recall no true green spots.

Prince Rurik: “As a boy I spent much time in these lands. Look at them now.”
Prince Rurik: “Instead of ponds and streams we have pools of bubbling tar and rivers of sludge. It saddens me to see Ascalon in ruins.”

It wasn’t sterilized, but it was turned into a wasteland. In your response, would you choose to live there if it was lush green lands that had turned to wasteland 2 years ago? It’s recovered 250 years later, a surprising amount to my viewpoint personally.

So, Ascalon didn’t have any stockpiled food? And since when was Ascalon besieged? Overran is not the same thing, the bulk of the Charr army passed through Ascalon like a freight train on their way to Orr, but they didn’t seige the place up. They didn’t even have it surrounded.

And I was talking about the bloody Deldrimor, not Ascalon. You asked about the dwarves in a siege, I responded about the dwarves. I’m fairly sure Ascalon’s food stockpiles didn’t expect the land to be ruined and devastated by the searing.

Ascalon wasn’t perhaps sieged, but it was under constant attack basically.

But he was asking for something in return…that’s the whole point. When you set out to convert a nation to your own religion, you don’t tell the guys in charge you’re going to do that. That would be really stupid. Rurik had no reason to disbelieve Zain, but Zain was lying to him nonetheless.

And look at Adelbern and Tydus’s comment about Zain. It’s not “White mantle plot.” It’s “KRYTAN plot.” They distrusted him purely because he was Krytan.

The Mantle just saved them from the Charr, most were too scared to say anything. They didn’t want to seem ungrateful perhaps? I don’t know, I don’t understand the Krytan psyche here…all they did was trade liberty for life here. To say no Krytan theoretically knew something was wrong with the Mantle is a pretty large delusion.

Yet even in the mission about the chosen, it’s a split. Some seem happy for the chosen, others grumble about less hands to work the fields. You are making this part far more complex then it is. Simply put, the Krytan government fled or was destroyed, and the White Mantle stepped in. Like the Empire from star wars or the Dominion in starcraft, outlying regions/outspoken areas saw the worst of it, but the bulk of citizens simply continued living without seeing what was really happening.

Had the Mantle control lasted more then a few years, things would’ve turned. Two years isn’t that odd for somebody to not come home from an academy from. But if it had been 10 years with nobody coming back? That’s weird.

Bringing their own food from the north, depending on the sources they ate humans as well.

If the Charr can bring in supplies from “the north somewhere” then the Ascalons can bring in supplies “from the south somewhere”. You simply cannot suppose it’s possible for one and not the other.[/quote]

A: Charr were ‘invading’ from the north.
B: Ascalon became isolationist, and had mountains to the south of it. South of those was the crystal desert. So who would be sending supplies north across a desert and mountains to Ascalon?

If it was my home, of course I would. It’s borders weren’t closed, they were just undefined. The PC only ever got to explore maybe a quarter of the whole kingdom.

The borders weren’t closed, but Adelbern refused the offers of help given. He basically turned it into an isolated nation. And I doubt your conviction would actually last. You are saying you would keep your family, friends, etc in a lush area turned wasteland, instead of following Rurik to an area that is STILL lush and fertile? You’d rather hunt for good water instead of simply walking down to a river?

All because “It’s your home.” People move all the time, for many reasons. It’s that mindset that results in deaths during severe weather because instead of moving someplace safe, they sit in their home “THIS IS MY HOME, I AM NOT LEAVING!” and then find their homes collapsed on them from hurricanes.

Again, there is defending your country and homeland, and “Holy kitten you are so stubborn you are going to die.”

Obsidian.1328:

The Test of the Chosen happened once a year in summer…it would have been incredibly coincidental had the Ascalon Refugees arrived on that same day. Or even week.

Yet, we did. Prophecies takes place in under a year, and Factions starts after it. We helped do the test, and in WiK, the captain of the settlement states they had lived in Kryta peacefully for years by then. The Mantle didn’t do anything to them.

You just messed up. If one line can’t remove everything he previously did, then one line can’t condemn him either. The one thing that every Adelbern critic points to was his banishment of Rurik. Beyond, along with all of EotN, is GW2 setup and can’t be included as evidence…Ascalon’s fate in the future GW2 narrative had already been decided by ANet by then(@2006). What other “bad” things did Adelbern do, prior to GW2 development, besides kick his son out? Try to arrest a Mantle rep? That’s it? Please.

He tried to charge an ambassador for treason, the reasons being “He’s Krytan” and “He gave food and supplies to an orphanage.” Note, Adelbern NEVER talks about him being Mantle. It’s purely “HE’S KRYTAN.” He’s noted to be insanely stubborn and refuses to get over the last guild war. Beyond can be included as evidence because IT IS GUILD WARS 1 CONTENT. It was MADE by GW1 staff.

EOTN was written by a number of the same people who wrote Prophecies. I load it from GW1, therefore it is GW1 content. Denying it is cherry-picking GW1 lore. Yes, beyond is setting up GW2, but the item in that is the Shining blade ambassador being forced to sit outside AC for a long time, and then disappearing.

He did accept help…from the PC to go kill their gods the Titans. He even asks you to help at the party in Droknar’s at the end of Proph.

Adelbern’s popularity was hit and miss. I could just as easily come up with quotes from NPC’s who swore he was the bestest king evar! The narrative pushes the PC toward Rurik because it serves the overall story, not the other way around. The writer needed some way to convince the PC to leave his home and get on with the real meat and potatoes of the story. Ruriks fight with his dad was it. Had the writer made it so that the PC simply leaves on his own volition, it would have been bad storytelling. Why on earth should I leave my home when everyone else is staying? Oh okay, I’m following the prince out…that sounds better. His dad is such a meanie anyway!

Think about it.

Actually, Glint told us to go help him. Adelbern not once asked for help with the titans. Glancing over the dialogue, it comes across more as a “Go protect him because he will get himself killed.” Also, he doesn’t really ask for help in the post-campaign scene in prophecies.

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Why would you leave when everybody else is staying? Maybe you are that sane person who doesn’t want to LIVE IN A WASTELAND WITH MORE TAR THEN WATER.

Maybe you and your group decide to travel across the mountains because you want a better, safer life and you know Kryta is better off then Ascalon.

Rurik leaving made sense, 100%. He saw the wasteland that Ascalon became. He saw the armies of the charr, and how a mighty legend like stormcaller really didn’t do much to change the war for the better. He saw a losing fight and decided it was better to try to get everybody out before they all died.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It was a rhetorical question, I’m not going to do your work for you. Either look on my past posts, research the game better than just a “wiki skim”, or even better, go outside official ANet channels.

There you go, I gave you 3 places to start. Good luck! =D

So you asking me to search proofs for your point? Nice try, but not gonna work. You made a statement about mysterious lore writer, so it’s your job to prove it.
E incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat.

^ I don’t know what that means. He’s no mystery, btw. Anyways, not my problem if you choose to ignore it.

Kalavier.1097:

As of that stage, the shining blade were basically a group of bandits. If we really went that way, we’d say that Ascalon was in civil war before the searing because of the royalists!

Umm…okay?

What green spots were in post searing Ascalon? I explored the entire area for 100% map completion, and I recall no true green spots.

Do it again, you’ll find em.

It wasn’t sterilized, but it was turned into a wasteland. In your response, would you choose to live there if it was lush green lands that had turned to wasteland 2 years ago?

Didn’t the Charr do exactly that?

And I was talking about the bloody Deldrimor, not Ascalon. You asked about the dwarves in a siege, I responded about the dwarves. I’m fairly sure Ascalon’s food stockpiles didn’t expect the land to be ruined and devastated by the searing. Ascalon wasn’t perhaps sieged, but it was under constant attack basically.

I know you were talking about Deldrimor…that was my point. If Ascalon wasn’t besieged, then it follows that they could still get supplies in from somewhere.

And look at Adelbern and Tydus’s comment about Zain. It’s not “White mantle plot.” It’s “KRYTAN plot.” They distrusted him purely because he was Krytan.

And? How does that matter, he was still causing trouble, regardless of professed affiliation.

Yet even in the mission about the chosen, it’s a split. Some seem happy for the chosen, others grumble about less hands to work the fields. You are making this part far more complex then it is. Simply put, the Krytan government fled or was destroyed, and the White Mantle stepped in. Like the Empire from star wars or the Dominion in starcraft, outlying regions/outspoken areas saw the worst of it, but the bulk of citizens simply continued living without seeing what was really happening. Had the Mantle control lasted more then a few years, things would’ve turned. Two years isn’t that odd for somebody to not come home from an academy from. But if it had been 10 years with nobody coming back? That’s weird.

So you think no one thought it odd that someone came in and made it illegal to worship the Six anymore, and that they had to start worshipping these new gods? I don’t think so.

A: Charr were ‘invading’ from the north.
B: Ascalon became isolationist, and had mountains to the south of it. South of those was the crystal desert. So who would be sending supplies north across a desert and mountains to Ascalon?

Not that far, silly. I meant south of the explorable area in Ascalon. You’re again assuming all of Ascalon was scorched because it’s brown on the world map.

The borders weren’t closed, but Adelbern refused the offers of help given. He basically turned it into an isolated nation. And I doubt your conviction would actually last. You are saying you would keep your family, friends, etc in a lush area turned wasteland, instead of following Rurik to an area that is STILL lush and fertile? You’d rather hunt for good water instead of simply walking down to a river?
All because “It’s your home.” People move all the time, for many reasons. It’s that mindset that results in deaths during severe weather because instead of moving someplace safe, they sit in their home “THIS IS MY HOME, I AM NOT LEAVING!” and then find their homes collapsed on them from hurricanes.

Dude…they don’t leave their home for good because of a hurricane. They find shelter for the night and come back to it the next day. If it’s destroyed, they either rebuild or leave if they can’t afford it. By the way, in the Middle-Ages, the fantasy setting GW most closely follows, most people didn’t live right on the beach in Hurricane prone areas…because there was no insurance and FEMA back then. But to answer your question, yes I would stay if my home got turned to ash. I would see it as my duty to defend and rebuild it. It bore me, nurtured me, and raised me…why would I leave it when it needs me most? There’s a reason why the word “motherland” exists, and it’s not referring to the land my mother came from…

Again, there is defending your country and homeland, and “Holy kitten you are so stubborn you are going to die.”

But they weren’t all going to die. GW2 turned it into a hopeless crusade…for all the reasons I’ve mentioned before. In GW1 they were surviving just fine.

Kalavier.1097:

Yet, we did. Prophecies takes place in under a year, and Factions starts after it. We helped do the test, and in WiK, the captain of the settlement states they had lived in Kryta peacefully for years by then. The Mantle didn’t do anything to them.

Umm…the Mursaat stopped taking Chosen after the Flameseeker Prophecies concluded. The Door of Komalie was closed.

He tried to charge an ambassador for treason, the reasons being “He’s Krytan” and “He gave food and supplies to an orphanage.” Note, Adelbern NEVER talks about him being Mantle. It’s purely “HE’S KRYTAN.” He’s noted to be insanely stubborn and refuses to get over the last guild war. Beyond can be included as evidence because IT IS GUILD WARS 1 CONTENT. It was MADE by GW1 staff.
EOTN was written by a number of the same people who wrote Prophecies. I load it from GW1, therefore it is GW1 content. Denying it is cherry-picking GW1 lore. Yes, beyond is setting up GW2, but the item in that is the Shining blade ambassador being forced to sit outside AC for a long time, and then disappearing.

EotN… “…is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2” Everything in that campaign and beyond(no pun intended) is set-up for GW2. And no, EotN was not written by anyone in Proph…they weren’t even on the staff at that time. Just ask Rednik, he’ll tell ya! Denying that is white-washing GW1 lore and akin to rewriting fictional history.

Actually, Glint told us to go help him. Adelbern not once asked for help with the titans. Glancing over the dialogue, it comes across more as a “Go protect him because he will get himself killed.” Also, he doesn’t really ask for help in the post-campaign scene in prophecies.

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Why would you leave when everybody else is staying? Maybe you are that sane person who doesn’t want to LIVE IN A WASTELAND WITH MORE TAR THEN WATER.

Maybe you and your group decide to travel across the mountains because you want a better, safer life and you know Kryta is better off then Ascalon.

Rurik leaving made sense, 100%. He saw the wasteland that Ascalon became. He saw the armies of the charr, and how a mighty legend like stormcaller really didn’t do much to change the war for the better. He saw a losing fight and decided it was better to try to get everybody out before they all died.

Um…he still asked for help. It was in true Adelbern-pompous fashion, but it was still asking for help. I don’t know why you are yelling, not all the water was tar, nor all the dirt ash. Rurik’s leaving actually didn’t make much sense if you follow all of his dialogue. Most of what he spouts is “never give up!” diatribe, like his “Don’t mess with Ascalon!(Texas) remarks. I mean…there’s a reason players likened him to Leroy Jenkins. Yet he throws in the towel after seeing one army. Obviously, Je…oops, almost gave it away to Rednik. The writer had trouble coming up with a way to lure the PC over the Shivs. Sorry if you can’t see that.

Also, you give up too easy, mate.

I’m definitely in the camp of having issues with the Charr / Human lore. I completely agree with Lutinz’s points. There’s (dare I say) sloppy writing going on here and imo the Charr were really mishandled.

For me, as a player of GW and a player in general, if I’m going to put my heart into a character then I need to relate, sympathize, empathize, and / or connect on some level with that character. After seeing what the Charr did tothe humans, that’s a very tall order.

There’s the usual back and forth about ‘but the humans did this.." Here’s my problem, the Charr, imo, still exhibit those heinous behaviors that made me hate them in the first place.

“Victory at any cost.” That line is absolutely disgusting. I hate it. No heroic race should EVER stand by that creed. Victory at any cost includes any and every dirty, sleezy, or terrible act to achieve a win. As a person I very much believe in the code of “It’s how we win that matters.” Get me on the Charr’s side after the Searing? Easy, make them noble winners. Show that they’re better than Humans in a war. Show that they were disgusted at the Searing, because that’s a dishonorable way to win a war. That may be somewhere in game, but I haven’t really seen that as a major presence among the Charr. (If you’re going to put in here, “that’s not the real world.. wars in the real world were won in horrible ways yada yada,” I’m giving my opinion on how to get me on board with the Charr in a fantasy game. So sure, evil is in the world, but if the world was a video game, I wouldn’t put my money to it. Good thing we can control / give input into our hobbies.)

TBH, all of the races are really troubling to me. The Norn seem like they will abandon any alliances once they get their home back. The Asurans seem like they’re just waiting for an opportunity to smother the other races under their tech to dominate the world. The Charr with their “Victory at any cost” seem poised to reignite those war machines against any bordering race.

The only two races that don’t seem to have an alterior motive are the Humans, b/c they’ve been beaten to death, and the Sylvari, b/c they’re too new to know how crappy the world can be.

In the end, the Charr should have been humanized. Show me that they were victims to the Flame Legion JUST AS MUCH as the humans. Show me the humans were victims to Alderbern JUST AS MUCH as the Charr. Provide mutual understanding between the Charr and every other race. Get rid of Trojan Horses like “Victory at any cost,” and I’m all on board. Otherwise, this is just a race that is still very 2 dimensional.

Again, this is just my opinion. I play a charr character despite the fact I struggle with really enjoying it due to all of the negative relations I have with their lore. Even if I think the writing is sloppy, at the end of the day, I really enjoy the game and the wonderful worlds that are built within in it… just not the Charr ;o

Obsidian.1328:

^ I don’t know what that means. He’s no mystery, btw. Anyways, not my problem if you choose to ignore it.

So you are unable to prove your point, as expected. Well, so be it.

Obsidian.1328:

It wasn’t sterilized, but it was turned into a wasteland. In your response, would you choose to live there if it was lush green lands that had turned to wasteland 2 years ago?

Didn’t the Charr do exactly that?

And the charr were invading. Besides, look at the areas Flame Legion hold (They were leaders back then). Very burnt and wasteland-like.

I know you were talking about Deldrimor…that was my point. If Ascalon wasn’t besieged, then it follows that they could still get supplies in from somewhere.

If Adelbern would trade with anybody. Which is the key point. The main source of easy supplies would be Kryta, who he refuses to trade with. Sure, the borders weren’t closed or under constant watch from the charr for the most part, but there wasn’t any official, current trading agreements.

And? How does that matter, he was still causing trouble, regardless of professed affiliation.

Causing trouble by giving supplies to an orphanage? (One of the first things we see him do).

So you think no one thought it odd that someone came in and made it illegal to worship the Six anymore, and that they had to start worshipping these new gods? I don’t think so.

Actually, if you bothered to pay attention, it was an offical white mantle rule that the temple of ages was not to be touched. You got extra stuff if you converted, but they did not BAN worshipping of the five gods. The ONLY time I recall anything like that happening was during WiK, where the Mantle went very extreme in trying to keep their rule.

There was a local statue of Melandru close to the temple of tolerance. A villager goes “Dwayna, please help me!”

Not that far, silly. I meant south of the explorable area in Ascalon. You’re again assuming all of Ascalon was scorched because it’s brown on the world map.

Because the manual is pretty explicit that Ascalon became a WASTELAND. Rurik states similar lines as well. They don’t have some hidden, lush farmland and clean rivers and lakes south of the playable area and still have Ascalon be a wasteland.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0b/Tyria_clean_map_2.jpg The green areas south of Ascalon are the mountains. There isn’t that much area south of the playable zones.

Dude…they don’t leave their home for good because of a hurricane. They find shelter for the night and come back to it the next day. If it’s destroyed, they either rebuild or leave if they can’t afford it. But to answer your question, yes I would stay if my home got turned to ash. I would see it as my duty to defend and rebuild it. It bore me, nurtured me, and raised me…why would I leave it when it needs me most? There’s a reason why the word “motherland” exists, and it’s not referring to the land my mother came from…

Again, there is ‘defending your home’ and “Being stubborn and dying.” If an army of zombies swarmed toward your home, would you sit there and not leave, even though you cannot defeat them all and would surely die? You would never move away from you home for any reason at all. Whether it’s lack of food and water in the area, dangers that will kill you, your friends and family, or other reasons?

Again, there is defending your country and homeland, and “Holy kitten you are so stubborn you are going to die.”

But they weren’t all going to die. GW2 turned it into a hopeless crusade…for all the reasons I’ve mentioned before. In GW1 they were surviving just fine.
[/quote]

Your version of “Just fine” and mine are VASTLY, incredibly different.

I look at post-searing Ascalon and I see a ruined nation clinging onto scraps. They are no intact towns or buildings, just ruins and people taking shelter in the ruins. There is more tar and ash then water and farmland. Charr are constantly attacking, so it’s dangerous, and with the wall broken and ruined, and the army withered, it’s even more dangerous.

They may have been surviving for the short term, but they were NOT fine. These are people used to a lush green landscape, not a wasteland.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

Yet, we did. Prophecies takes place in under a year, and Factions starts after it. We helped do the test, and in WiK, the captain of the settlement states they had lived in Kryta peacefully for years by then. The Mantle didn’t do anything to them.

Umm…the Mursaat stopped taking Chosen after the Flameseeker Prophecies concluded. The Door of Komalie was closed.

And the test of the chosen was performed AFTER the refugees got there. It’s noted fact that the White Mantle left the Ascalon settlement alone until the WiK events. Therefore if they truly were enslaving and wanting to convert the Ascalon people, they did a kitten poor job at it.

EotN… “…is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2” Everything in that campaign and beyond(no pun intended) is set-up for GW2. And no, EotN was not written by anyone in Proph…they weren’t even on the staff at that time. Just ask Rednik, he’ll tell ya! Denying that is white-washing GW1 lore and akin to rewriting fictional history.

Oh really. Check this very topic.

Dante.1763:

Well, Heres the writers who wrote Nightfall: From http://gw1101.gtm.guildwars.com/products/nightfall/features/nightfallcredits.php
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Theres only a one person absence in between the two games.

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credit list for GW2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Writers
Angel Leigh McCoy
Bobby Stein
David Wilson
John Ryan
Matt Forbeck
Peter Fries
Scott McGough

The biggest change in staff was between EoTn and when GW2 was published, at least for the writing team ^^

EOTN writing staff had the same people from Prophecies.

Um…he still asked for help. It was in true Adelbern-pompous fashion, but it was still asking for help. I don’t know why you are yelling, not all the water was tar, nor all the dirt ash.
Also, you give up too easy, mate.

I don’t see a single line from Adelbern in Last Day Dawns implying he is asking for help.
Glint says he cannot win the battle, and RIGA goes “Thank the gods you have come!” Adelbern doesn’t say a word to the player asking for help.

Almost all of the water was Tar, and there was a lot of Ash. Name a single spot where you saw water in large amounts in post-searing. You had an easier time finding Tar then water, as Rurik’s line states.

I give up easy? Nah. I prefer to go with “Would I raise a family in that environment? Hell kittening no.” What’s a common post-apocalyptic wasteland story arc? “We are going this way. Why? Because we have heard of food and water in abundance there.” or “There are people and safety there.”

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

^ I don’t know what that means. He’s no mystery, btw. Anyways, not my problem if you choose to ignore it.

So you are unable to prove your point, as expected. Well, so be it.

sigh…

Fine, be lazy.

These are taken from Jess Lebow’s resume page:

2003-2005
Arena Net Bellevue, WA
World Designer/Story Creator

• Led story creation and creative direction for Guild Wars, a AAA PC game with over 1.5 million sales in its first year.
• Authored story outlines for Guild Wars Core Campaign and Guild Wars Factions.
• Designed game and mission mechanics.
• Wrote all mission and cut-scene scripts, along with high-resolution marketing cinematics.
• Wrote and directed all in-game voiceover.
• Wrote monthly short fiction for Guildwars.com.
• Responsible for creation of large online fan fiction community.

2005-2006
Arena Net Bellevue, WA
Producer

• Produced all in-game voiceover, including managing casting, budgets, voice direction, and recording sessions.
• Managed team of four writers and cut-scene director.
• Wrote and produced all high-resolution game trailers.
• Produced all printed materials, including strategy guides, game manuals, marketing documentation, art books, and manga.
• Pitched stories to all major gaming magazines.
• Acted as spokesperson for Guild Wars and Arena Net in interviews with major game media: CBS, G4 Tech TV, IGN, Gamespy, Play Magazine, Computer Games Magazine, Computer Gaming World.
• Gave interviews to international news media outlets in Korea, Taiwan, Germany, France, and Japan.
• Helped develop print media business: manga, novels, and printed games.

I suppose he could be lying. :-/

Kalavier.1097:

~snip~

The wiki is wrong.

Correction
The wiki is incomplete.

Here’s his tiny credit given him on the GW wiki.

Obsidian.1328:

sigh…

Fine, be lazy.

These are taken from Jess Lebow’s resume page:

2003-2005
Arena Net Bellevue, WA
World Designer/Story Creator

• Led story creation and creative direction for Guild Wars, a AAA PC game with over 1.5 million sales in its first year.
• Authored story outlines for Guild Wars Core Campaign and Guild Wars Factions.
• Designed game and mission mechanics.
• Wrote all mission and cut-scene scripts, along with high-resolution marketing cinematics.
• Wrote and directed all in-game voiceover.
• Wrote monthly short fiction for Guildwars.com.
• Responsible for creation of large online fan fiction community.

2005-2006
Arena Net Bellevue, WA
Producer

• Produced all in-game voiceover, including managing casting, budgets, voice direction, and recording sessions.
• Managed team of four writers and cut-scene director.
• Wrote and produced all high-resolution game trailers.
• Produced all printed materials, including strategy guides, game manuals, marketing documentation, art books, and manga.
• Pitched stories to all major gaming magazines.
• Acted as spokesperson for Guild Wars and Arena Net in interviews with major game media: CBS, G4 Tech TV, IGN, Gamespy, Play Magazine, Computer Games Magazine, Computer Gaming World.
• Gave interviews to international news media outlets in Korea, Taiwan, Germany, France, and Japan.
• Helped develop print media business: manga, novels, and printed games.

---

I suppose he could be lying. :-/

So as expected, he only was leading one, not only one.

Derom.1205:

What is your opinion about the Ascalon discussion?

I think the fact that people can be so passionate about Ascalon and both sides have their supporters for different reasons is amazing.

You’d think Anet would take this opportunity and expand this plot because it has so much potential. But no. Eversince the release of GW2, Anet demonized Ascalonian humans and gave the middlefinger to all of the GW1 fans. We even have events to destroy their statues, their legacy.. where can I do the same to the charr?

It’s a shame to see Anet destroy this part of the lore. I bet Rytlock will channel Rurik and undo the foefire too, freeing the land from those evil evil humans…

TL;DR Anet made this great debate into a onesided arguement by supporting the charr in every possible situation and hating on Ascalonians.

witcher.3197:

You’d think Anet would take this opportunity and expand this plot because it has so much potential. But no. Eversince the release of GW2, Anet demonized Ascalonian humans and gave the middlefinger to all of the GW1 fans. We even have events to destroy their statues, their legacy.. where can I do the same to the charr?

They have not demonized ascalonians. It’s noted the ghost are NOT sane and themselves (for 99% of them at least), and the only ones who are shown in a bad light are the ones who literally would BOMB HUMANS instead of accepting a rough peace.

Most of the time the statue destruction that I’ve seen is done for one reason. It breaks the ghosts strength in an area. Would you rather the charr be idiots at let the ghost strength rise higher an threaten even more people in the Ascalon region?

It’s a shame to see Anet destroy this part of the lore. I bet Rytlock will channel Rurik and undo the foefire too, freeing the land from those evil evil humans…

TL;DR Anet made this great debate into a onesided arguement by supporting the charr in every possible situation and hating on Ascalonians.

However, as we know it right now, it’s impossible for Rytlock to dispell the foefire, as it requires somebody of the Royal bloodline.

And that’d be freeing the land of the ghosts who KILL EVERYTHING, humans included. It’d free all those souls from endless war and torture, a curse that was started by Adelbern.

I suppose you missed the fact that the peace treaty actually gives the entire fields of ruin area to Ebonhawke/humanity right?

Rednik.3809:

So as expected, he only was leading one, not only one.

The “team” didn’t come about until Factions, for Proph it was all him. “Led creative direction” doesn’t mean led a team of writers. And even when he did with Factions, he still authored the story outline of that campaign.

For Proph, he wrote all storyline narration, missions, cut-scene dialogue, and, oh yeah, designed the worded world. He basically wrote Tyria into literary existence. Keep in mind that when ANet first started working on Guild Wars, they had less than 2 dozen on staff.

Like I said, if you want to ignore that, that’s your problem.

So everybody else listed under “writers” simply did nothing and sat aside, even for Prophecies?

Regardless, if he left the company, then you can’t complain about things MAYBE changing (Adelbern’s descent to insanity fits well with his portrayal in prophecies. As he lost more and more, he went more mad.) because it’s not like the guy is still around to direct things.

We aren’t talking about a Traviss level rewriting here, just a progression. It is canon FACT Adelbern grew even more stubborn as time went on, and never budged on his hate of Krytans. It is canon FACT that the charr forces were not routed during the events of Prophecies. The Titans were defeated and the leaders maybe killed, but the army was not.

It’s amusing when people describe all charr in GW1 as wanting to slaughter humans, but then the moment the leading warband gets killed, the charr all apparently ran away :P.

Kalavier.1097:

So everybody else listed under “writers” simply did nothing and sat aside, even for Prophecies?

Regardless, if he left the company, then you can’t complain about things MAYBE changing (Adelbern’s descent to insanity fits well with his portrayal in prophecies. As he lost more and more, he went more mad.) because it’s not like the guy is still around to direct things.

We aren’t talking about a Traviss level rewriting here, just a progression. It is canon FACT Adelbern grew even more stubborn as time went on, and never budged on his hate of Krytans. It is canon FACT that the charr forces were not routed during the events of Prophecies. The Titans were defeated and the leaders maybe killed, but the army was not.

It’s amusing when people describe all charr in GW1 as wanting to slaughter humans, but then the moment the leading warband gets killed, the charr all apparently ran away :P.

Did you even research that list?

Stacie Magelssen, Brian Campbell, Cory Herndon, Caitlin Kittredge, and Bobby Stein all came on board for Factions.
Sean Ferguson and Will McDermott came on board for Nightfall.

I can most certainly still argue about things changing, whether or not Jess is still there is entirely irrelevant to that aspect of the conversation.

It’s certainly not canon fact Adelbern got more stubborn in Proph, that happened in EotN and later.

It’s also not canon fact the Charr forces were not routed. It’s outright stated as such in Empire Divided(which Jess wrote), not to mention numerous allusions to such and this line in Last Day Dawns from one of Adelbern’s guards: “I did not survive the Charr invasion only to be slain by these demons!” By the time of that event, those few Charr there are supposed to represent the remaining Charr forces dude…

The Charr didn’t run away, they were already dead. …until the EotN reboot that is.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s certainly not canon fact Adelbern got more stubborn in Proph, that happened in EotN and later.

No, he was stubborn and refused Kryta. Nothing indicated he changed in that regard. One description was that he “circled the wagons and held onto what was left”. It only is rational as more of that slipped away, he’d become crazier.

It’s also not canon fact the Charr forces were not routed. It’s outright stated as such in Empire Divided(which Jess wrote), not to mention numerous allusions to such and this line in Last Day Dawns from one of Adelbern’s guards: “I did not survive the Charr invasion only to be slain by these demons!” By the time of that event, those few Charr there are supposed to represent the remaining Charr forces dude…

The Charr didn’t run away, they were already dead. …until the EotN reboot that is.

A: That quote doesn’t say the war is over. It just says he survived. Empire divided also said that Adelbern was making treaties with Kryta, and Jess wrote Adelbern’s utter hatred of Kryta in all things. So explain that.
B: So in the period between players leaving Ascalon, and them returning to deal with the Titans, the Charr army of thousands that put fear into Rurik’s mind (and he was the one wanting to take the fight to the Charr, he knows Ascalon’s military strength) has been destroyed or weakened, despite the fact we know that ASCALON’s army has been withered and vastly weakened since Rurik left.

I see lines that could be TAKEN as if the war was over, but nothing that factually an explicitly says the Charr were defeated.

Hell, Adelbern says this at the end of Last day dawns.

“All that I have left is this antiquated set of armor and the remains of this tattered kingdom.” Yep, sounds like a kingdom that is recovering and/or has won. :P

Yes, it said he survived the invasion…past tense.

Yes, the Charr army of “thousands” was portrayed as drastically reduced in number in Last Day Dawns. At Surmia, this was done for narrative purposes to set-up Rurik’s argument with his pa, not as an indication of Ascalon’s impending doom.

Again, Rurik’s fight with his dad is to give the PC a reason to GTFO of Ascalon and because he’s supposed to die in front of the PC…for obvious reasons. It further endears him to the PC by sacrificing his life for you and the refugees and makes the final battle mission all that much more emotional. Had he stayed in Ascalon, and you left without him, that final battle against him in undead form wouldn’t have really meant much. Try to see why the narration is what it is and not just words on a screen.

Ironically, that quote you posted of Adelbern is the explanation for why he would have started making treaties with Kryta again. The whole point of that dialogue is to show his remorse and that he actually is a human being and not some beyond-all-hope madman. You left off the last part of that quote btw:

“I thank you for your help today. Rurik would have been very proud of all you have accomplished.”

He’s not angrier, he’s humbled.

If a man spent his entire life hating say, germans… then at a very dark/low spot in his life, sounded remorseful in general, would you assume that he’s suddenly perfectly fine and okay with germans? I wouldn’t. Besides the fact that he’s had no contact with the Krytans at all, so nothing could change his mind about them in general (like going “Oh, these guys aren’t so bad… maybe Krytans in general aren’t as evil as I viewed them…”) Honestly, with how LITTLE Adelbern was relevant to the story of Prophecies, there is no arc to show him getting better. Or anything to show that wasn’t merely a tired, one time thing where his common sense won through against anything else. Hell, still, if that one guy wrote 100% of Prophecies, and wrote that manual story for factions, he messed up. You know, the whole “Adelbern openly making treaties with Kryta.” and “Players destroyed the white mantle leadership entirely, leaving nobody to make a treaty with.” :P

IMO, Rurik leaving was partly because he saw not much hope then for Ascalon due to the number of Charr, but because his father refused to see the situation for how dire it actually was (and refused to accept help). The fact Stormcaller seemed to have not a huge impact also doesn’t help perhaps. Sure, it can summon a storm, but it’s not a mobile weapon.

Also, the Titan Source does not say that it is the bulk of the charr army. It merely says “This massive charr gathering.” Again, at the end, the line is merely “The titans are dealt with.” not the Charr, the titans.

Thank you for coming. I have sent scouts out past the Flame Temple Corridor into Dragon’s Gullet. Charr chieftains have been worshiping a number of burning godlike creatures and are rallying a Charr warband. My scouts are unsettled by the appearance of these creatures alone. I trust that you have confronted worse on your travels and that you are worthy enough to purge the region of this massive Charr gathering."

Not even all of Ascalon, but merely that one region of it. I see nothing that says the majority of the Charr armies have been defeated at that point. Nothing even says that the Last Day Dawns is a huge charr army. Just a group running alongside the titan lords (who are the real focus of the mission).

Lemme put it this way. I think something as MAJOR as the Charr offensive being completely broken and pushed back, and Ascalon being safe from them and the war being over, would be something explicitly mentioned ingame. I’d think those warmasters, Adelbern, or civilians(or even Glint) would mention it as such. But nobody seems to treat it as if the war is done or even close to finishing. Glint merely goes “Adelbern is safe.”(after she sent you explicitly to guard him from the TITANS) and “The Titans are dealt with.”

He didn’t mess up, he just never had the time or resources to get back to it. The White Mantle were supposed to have destroyed the Shining Blade after our hasty get-away at Sanctum Cay remember? That’s something that is alluded to and assumed, but never outright said, just like the Ascalon surviving the Charr is alluded to and assumed, but never outright said.

ANet would have had to have made entirely new “post-Prophecies” maps for the sole purpose of laying to rest hundreds of loose lore threads…are you kidding me? That Jess or ANet never did outright lay to rest some things is the entire reason WiK and EotN can exist in the first place. Sure Jess mentions that Ascalon and Kryta are trading again…because the Flameseeker Prophecies are over, Tyria is safe, and he’s writing Factions now.

We know Ascalon is safe because he says so, yet he never mentions who is in charge of Kryta now that the Mursaat are defeated. He left it with the Mantle in charge and the Shining Blade “all but disbanded” according to Evennia. Yet GW2 ANet added the whole story about the Shining Blade coming back from impossible odds with the Ascended helping to defeat waves upon waves of Mantle and Mursaat. Kryta’s sovereign ambiguity was just as much, if not more, up in the air after Proph as was Ascalon’s. Yet you have no issue with how ANet handled that? How they not only wrote Kryta back into pre-Mantle existence, but elevated them to the only human kingdom in GW2? Do you really not think that could have just as easily(if not easier) been done with Ascalon? Or is this all based on a brown map? Seriously dude?

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

~snip~

The wiki is wrong.

Correction
The wiki is incomplete.

Here’s his tiny credit given him on the GW wiki.

Something seems fishy. Why is his resume your only source? He claims authorship which should be documented. His statement on directing voiceovers is not corroborated by imdb. So far he is the only one saying he did these things.

Obsidian, I’ll read and reply to your post in a bit, but while at work I was thinking. Now I assume you’d be against this, but I’ll say it anyway.

Ever think that MAYBE, At end of Titan Source, the Charr were defeated (not wiped out) and went back north. So Ascalon had peace for a few years… then a NEW charr force charged south again?

Also, again, they never say that Tyria or Ascalon is safe entirely. Just that the Titan threat is dealt with. The literal only thing Glint says is that the Titan’s don’t threaten Tyria anymore. That does not mean the Charr are dealt with.

Obsidian.1328:

Do you really not think that could have just as easily(if not easier) been done with Ascalon?

Lets see… paranoid king without slightest idea about diplomacy, full isolationist mode (surely ambassador to Cantha will help, uh-huh. Oh wait, we didn’t see any Ascalon ambassador in Cantha in actual game), burned land, burned cities except Ascalon city, no signs of charr force being pushed out…
Yes, surely it will be restored to its full glory in no time. Except it’s not. And this is official canon. Yeah.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

~snip~

The wiki is wrong.

Correction
The wiki is incomplete.

Here’s his tiny credit given him on the GW wiki.

Something seems fishy. Why is his resume your only source? He claims authorship which should be documented. His statement on directing voiceovers is not corroborated by imdb. So far he is the only one saying he did these things.

It’s not my only source, it’s just a source.

Daniel…do you really think his resume is a hoax?

Kalavier.1097:

Obsidian, I’ll read and reply to your post in a bit, but while at work I was thinking. Now I assume you’d be against this, but I’ll say it anyway.

Ever think that MAYBE, At end of Titan Source, the Charr were defeated (not wiped out) and went back north. So Ascalon had peace for a few years… then a NEW charr force charged south again?

Also, again, they never say that Tyria or Ascalon is safe entirely. Just that the Titan threat is dealt with. The literal only thing Glint says is that the Titan’s don’t threaten Tyria anymore. That does not mean the Charr are dealt with.

Yet another Charr horde…sure, why not.

Glint says Tyria is revived and Tyria is saved after Hell’s Precipice. And that Tyria isn’t safe until you finish off the Titans, which you do. You’re right that he doesn’t specify the Charr.

At any rate, the point of Glint is as an arbiter of the Flameseeker Prophecies themselves. It is the driving force of the narrative. It foretold the Searing, the Cataclysm, Rurik’s death, the Mursaat, Khilbron, and even that the Chosen one would be an Ascalonian who would follow Rurik out of Ascalon. But it never alludes to anything about the destruction of Ascalon, only that of Orr.

Rurik’s death was part of the PC’s destiny, not merely a casualty of Adelbern’s pride. You’re right that Adelbern is a minor character in all this. His only job was to set the wheels of the Prophecy in motion by being a general kitten to his son and the PC empathizes and follows Rurik out. The writer was using him as a plot catalyst, Adelbern had to be a kitten.

Obsidian.1328:

He didn’t mess up, he just never had the time or resources to get back to it. The White Mantle were supposed to have destroyed the Shining Blade after our hasty get-away at Sanctum Cay remember? That’s something that is alluded to and assumed, but never outright said, just like the Ascalon surviving the Charr is alluded to and assumed, but never outright said.

Assumed by you. I never once took it as if Ascalon was safe and sound and the charr forever defeated.

Hell, if the mantle is in charge still. Why would they trade with Ascalon after Ascalonians murdered their entire top tier leadership? :P

ANet would have had to have made entirely new “post-Prophecies” maps for the sole purpose of laying to rest hundreds of loose lore threads…are you kidding me? That Jess or ANet never did outright lay to rest some things is the entire reason WiK and EotN can exist in the first place. Sure Jess mentions that Ascalon and Kryta are trading again…because the Flameseeker Prophecies are over, Tyria is safe, and he’s writing Factions now.

Again, point is not them making new maps. Point is nobody mentions the charr-human conflict as being over ingame. I would think that would be something to mention during Last Day dawns/Titan Source. Or hell, having Ascalon’s chosen mention it in factions! Jess Mentions Ascalon are Kryta are trading again, with no explaination to the “WHY?” bit. He explicitly developed Adelbern into a king who hates Krytans above almost all else, yet suddenly Adelbern is making treaties and trading with Kryta?

We know Ascalon is safe because he says so, yet he never mentions who is in charge of Kryta now that the Mursaat are defeated. He left it with the Mantle in charge and the Shining Blade “all but disbanded” according to Evennia. Yet GW2 ANet added the whole story about the Shining Blade coming back from impossible odds with the Ascended helping to defeat waves upon waves of Mantle and Mursaat. Kryta’s sovereign ambiguity was just as much, if not more, up in the air after Proph as was Ascalon’s. Yet you have no issue with how ANet handled that? How they not only wrote Kryta back into pre-Mantle existence, but elevated them to the only human kingdom in GW2? Do you really not think that could have just as easily(if not easier) been done with Ascalon? Or is this all based on a brown map? Seriously dude?

Not a single person says Ascalon is safe. Glint says “ADELBERN.” is safe, but that’s explicitly in the context of the TITAN threat, not the charr. As you said, Adelbern disliked Zain because of being Mantle and Krytan, yet Adelbern would trade with the white mantle? This doesn’t make sense at all especially if we are to think that a single person wrote all of this. A group writing it makes more sense because perhaps failure to communicate details across the team.

GW2 didn’t say a thing about the shining blade. Guild wars beyond (which is Guild wars 1, not 2) worked on that part.

Kryta was safe (ish), had good land, and a working infrastructure. Ascalon was not safe, ruined land and cities, and assumably alongside “ruined land” didn’t have as much infrastructure left intact. I could see Kryta lasting 250 years. Ascalon I could not. Especially under Adelbern’s leadership as presented in prophecies.

It’s not based “On a brown map” It’s based on the fact that Ascalon got hit with the equivalent of a NUKE. Explicitly (in manual and IN THE GAME, FROM MAJOR NPCS) was stated to be a wasteland. The fact Ascalon has healed as much as it has by GW2 was surprising to me, being 100% honest. I did not expect it to be that healthy again.

Yes, I see Kryta making the 250 year haul. Ascalon, I could not.

Obsidian.1328:

Yet another Charr horde…sure, why not.

Because it’s totally reasonable to assume the charr had their entire leadership in Ascalon and not a single charr to the North would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Glint says Tyria is revived and Tyria is saved after Hell’s Precipice. And that Tyria isn’t safe until you finish off the Titans, which you do. You’re right that he doesn’t specify the Charr.

Then why assume that the Charr are simply gone, when not a single NPC in Ascalon acts as if the war is almost over. Again, that’s kinda a HUGE thing that you think somebody would TALK about to the player. Like the warmaster going “The Charr chieftains are gathering the bulk of their remaining forces.” instead of “The Charr chieftains are gathering a warband.”

At any rate, the point of Glint is as an arbiter of the Flameseeker Prophecies themselves. It is the driving force of the narrative. It foretold the Searing, the Cataclysm, Rurik’s death, the Mursaat, Khilbron, and even that the Chosen one would be an Ascalonian who would follow Rurik out of Ascalon. But it never alludes to anything about the destruction of Ascalon, only that of Orr.

“The prophecy (as much as is known through the game) predicts the destruction of Ascalon, the death of Prince Rurik, civil war in the Shiverpeak Mountains, an undead force arriving, the finding of the Scepter of Orr, its falling into the hands of the Lich Lord (the Flameseeker referred to in the name), the fall of the Mursaat at the hands of the Chosen, the Lich Lord opening the Door of Komalie, and the subsequent release of the Titans (who are presumably the flame being sought out). Even the eventual downfall of the Flameseeker was foretold in the prophecies, according to Glint, so it is likely that the Lich Lord was not aware of the entire prophecy, especially given his motivation to fulfill them. Glint may even have withheld revealing parts of the prophecy until the end of the Hell’s Precipice mission. "

“Old Ascalon Spirit in Nolani Academy:

“The story of our destruction was foretold long ago. Our names might as well have been written in the Flameseeker Prophecies.” "

<_<.

Rurik’s death was part of the PC’s destiny, not merely a casualty of Adelbern’s pride. You’re right that Adelbern is a minor character in all this. His only job was to set the wheels of the Prophecy in motion by being a general kitten to his son and the PC empathizes and follows Rurik out. The writer was using him as a plot catalyst, Adelbern had to be a kitten.

My point being that once we left Ascalon, it’s revelance to the story disappeared. Not once were the player characters concerned with what was happening back home. Hell, the only time we actually head back is because Glint tells us to kill the Titans.

I read through quite a bit of this thread (not all of it) but I failed to see any mention of why and how the Charr actually over threw the human kingdoms. Some of you are actually trying to argue the Charr did it through their own strengths when that is a complete lie. The Charr had no hope against the humans by themselves.

Abaddon and the titans were the cause of the fall of Ascalon. The Charr were merely puppets of the previous.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Cauldron_of_Cataclysm

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

The titans were under direct order from Abaddon to push the Charr against humanity. Without that, the Charr would have been slaughter and pushed back further. It wasn’t the power of the Charr but the power of long forgotten “beings” that killed Ascalon.

(Side note: I am pretty sure the writing team of Guild Wars 2 will try and say the cauldron was powered by the Elder Dragons.)

Vanthian.9267:

I read through quite a bit of this thread (not all of it) but I failed to see any mention of why and how the Charr actually over threw the human kingdoms. Some of you are actually trying to argue the Charr did it through their own strengths when that is a complete lie. The Charr had no hope against the humans by themselves.

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

Abaddon and the titans were the cause of the fall of Ascalon. The Charr were merely puppets of the previous.

The titans were under direct order from Abaddon to push the Charr against humanity. Without that, the Charr would have been slaughter and pushed back further. It wasn’t the power of the Charr but the power of long forgotten “beings” that killed Ascalon.

Titan magic caused the searing, but other then the searing Cauldren… they provided little to no aid to the charr. So, again, the charr overrunning the armies of Arah quickly is all Charr.

Kalavier.1097:

Assumed by you. I never once took it as if Ascalon was safe and sound and the charr forever defeated.

Hell, if the mantle is in charge still. Why would they trade with Ascalon after Ascalonians murdered their entire top tier leadership? :P

Not assumed by me, assumed by the writer and the narrative. He has them both back to normal by the time of Factions. Both the Searing carnage and the Mantle in Kryta are there to serve the plot of the story, they aren’t meant as indicators of both kingdoms future.

Again, point is not them making new maps. Point is nobody mentions the charr-human conflict as being over ingame. I would think that would be something to mention during Last Day dawns/Titan Source. Or hell, having Ascalon’s chosen mention it in factions! Jess Mentions Ascalon are Kryta are trading again, with no explaination to the “WHY?” bit. He explicitly developed Adelbern into a king who hates Krytans above almost all else, yet suddenly Adelbern is making treaties and trading with Kryta?

The “why” is because they never had time to come back to it. GW1 wasn’t like GW2, they released another stand-alone campaign in 1 year. That’s not Ascalon’s Chosen, that’s Devona and Co. Some of them have small remarks about missing home, but you have to remember Devona and Co. are taking the same steps the PC is…like you, they left with Rurik and the refugees. And they left for Cantha with you to join that cause. They are kind of like the PC’s posse.

Not a single person says Ascalon is safe. Glint says “ADELBERN.” is safe, but that’s explicitly in the context of the TITAN threat, not the charr. As you said, Adelbern disliked Zain because of being Mantle and Krytan, yet Adelbern would trade with the white mantle? This doesn’t make sense at all especially if we are to think that a single person wrote all of this. A group writing it makes more sense because perhaps failure to communicate details across the team.

GW2 didn’t say a thing about the shining blade. Guild wars beyond (which is Guild wars 1, not 2) worked on that part.

It is GW2. Ermenred said Ascalon was safe. Taking the phrase “recovering from the Charr conflict” as anything less than recovering from a war that is over is your problem.

It’s not based “On a brown map” It’s based on the fact that Ascalon got hit with the equivalent of a NUKE. Explicitly (in manual and IN THE GAME, FROM MAJOR NPCS) was stated to be a wasteland. The fact Ascalon has healed as much as it has by GW2 was surprising to me, being 100% honest. I did not expect it to be that healthy again.

Yes, I see Kryta making the 250 year haul. Ascalon, I could not.

Was the Searing radioactive? News to me! It wouldn’t take more than 10 years for land to recover from an artillery shelling. Even one as massive as the Searing.

Kalavier.1097:

Because it’s totally reasonable to assume the charr had their entire leadership in Ascalon and not a single charr to the North would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Just like it’s totally reasonable to assume only the in-game explorable part of Ascalon is all there is and not a single Ascalon to the south would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Then why assume that the Charr are simply gone, when not a single NPC in Ascalon acts as if the war is almost over. Again, that’s kinda a HUGE thing that you think somebody would TALK about to the player. Like the warmaster going “The Charr chieftains are gathering the bulk of their remaining forces.” instead of “The Charr chieftains are gathering a warband.”

Because when you go back to Ascalon, almost all of the NPC’s are still coded to say things as if you just started the game. I don’t know why whatever warmaster you mention there didn’t specify it was the last of the Charr…what a horrible narrative oversight. -__-

“The prophecy (as much as is known through the game) predicts the destruction of Ascalon, the death of Prince Rurik, civil war in the Shiverpeak Mountains, an undead force arriving, the finding of the Scepter of Orr, its falling into the hands of the Lich Lord (the Flameseeker referred to in the name), the fall of the Mursaat at the hands of the Chosen, the Lich Lord opening the Door of Komalie, and the subsequent release of the Titans (who are presumably the flame being sought out). Even the eventual downfall of the Flameseeker was foretold in the prophecies, according to Glint, so it is likely that the Lich Lord was not aware of the entire prophecy, especially given his motivation to fulfill them. Glint may even have withheld revealing parts of the prophecy until the end of the Hell’s Precipice mission. "

“Old Ascalon Spirit in Nolani Academy:

“The story of our destruction was foretold long ago. Our names might as well have been written in the Flameseeker Prophecies.” "

<_<.

Umm…that phrase up there about the destruction of Ascalon isn’t actually in the game. You should read the wiki notes more carefully. That part was added to the wiki by our good friend Konig in 2013. :-/
And the Nolani spirit is talking about his fellow soldiers that were on the Wall when the Searing rained down on them, he wasn’t talking about the whole kindgom.

<_<

My point being that once we left Ascalon, it’s revelance to the story disappeared. Not once were the player characters concerned with what was happening back home. Hell, the only time we actually head back is because Glint tells us to kill the Titans.

Agree!!

Kalavier.1097:

Vanthian.9267:

I read through quite a bit of this thread (not all of it) but I failed to see any mention of why and how the Charr actually over threw the human kingdoms. Some of you are actually trying to argue the Charr did it through their own strengths when that is a complete lie. The Charr had no hope against the humans by themselves.

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

Abaddon and the titans were the cause of the fall of Ascalon. The Charr were merely puppets of the previous.

The titans were under direct order from Abaddon to push the Charr against humanity. Without that, the Charr would have been slaughter and pushed back further. It wasn’t the power of the Charr but the power of long forgotten “beings” that killed Ascalon.

Titan magic caused the searing, but other then the searing Cauldren… they provided little to no aid to the charr. So, again, the charr overrunning the armies of Arah quickly is all Charr.

The later explanation for their renewed strength was the unification of the Legions, which came about because of the Titans. Supposedly.

Almost nothing is known of the battle in Orr. Perhaps the Charr used another Cauldron with pinpoint accuracy like in Blast from the Past. That thing was like a smart bomb. :-P

Obsidian.1328:

Not assumed by me, assumed by the writer and the narrative. He has them both back to normal by the time of Factions. Both the Searing carnage and the Mantle in Kryta are there to serve the plot of the story, they aren’t meant as indicators of both kingdoms future.

I’ve found a SINGLE line of dialogue that says that. And it doesn’t say Ascalon is back to normal. I don’t even see how you could say “Ascalon is back to normal” after the searing level event (at least, instantly).

The “why” is because they never had time to come back to it. GW1 wasn’t like GW2, they released another stand-alone campaign in 1 year. That’s not Ascalon’s Chosen, that’s Devona and Co. Some of them have small remarks about missing home, but you have to remember Devona and Co. are taking the same steps the PC is…like you, they left with Rurik and the refugees. And they left for Cantha with you to join that cause. They are kind of like the PC’s posse.

Devona is a member of Ascalon’s Chosen, and I recall reading in the past that was basically the name of her crew.

Not a single person says Ascalon is safe. Glint says “ADELBERN.” is safe, but that’s explicitly in the context of the TITAN threat, not the charr. As you said, Adelbern disliked Zain because of being Mantle and Krytan, yet Adelbern would trade with the white mantle? This doesn’t make sense at all especially if we are to think that a single person wrote all of this. A group writing it makes more sense because perhaps failure to communicate details across the team.

GW2 didn’t say a thing about the shining blade. Guild wars beyond (which is Guild wars 1, not 2) worked on that part.

It is GW2. Ermenred said Ascalon was safe. Taking the phrase “recovering from the Charr conflict” as anything less than recovering from a war that is over is your problem.[/quote]

GW beyond may be meant to prepare for GW2, but it was created by the GW1 team. I’m sorry, but since I must load up GW1 to play it, I will consider it part of GW1. To me, saying it’s GW2 is like saying an add-on mission to “Starcraft Brood War” which works to setup or imply things about “Starcraft 2” is “Starcraft 2 canon.”

Again, that phrase falls back on the “In Prophecies, nobody acts as if the war is over/close to over in the final two quests about Ascalon.” Hell, the one line I see ingame says “The charr army is pushed north toward their homeland.” Not routed, utterly defeated, or wiped out. So, that ties back to what I was saying. A second force may have went south (tying into you wanting Ascalon to have won the war) instead of them ‘retconing’ it into the war never ending.

Was the Searing radioactive? News to me! It wouldn’t take more than 10 years for land to recover from an artillery shelling. Even one as massive as the Searing.

Yes, because an artillery shelling turns lakes and rivers into solid, thick tar that’s still present two years after the fact.

I say “Like a nuke” because it turned the region INTO A WASTELAND. That is canon fact, you cannot ignore or skirt around it. Ascalon. Was. A. Wasteland.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

Because it’s totally reasonable to assume the charr had their entire leadership in Ascalon and not a single charr to the North would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Just like it’s totally reasonable to assume only the in-game explorable part of Ascalon is all there is and not a single Ascalon to the south would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Besides the fact Glint tells us explicitly Ascalon’s armies and defenses are weakened and withered? Either way, having found a line of dialogue from Mhenlo about the conflict, it looks more and more like a renewed Charr offensive post-prophecies timeline instead of a constant 100% war.

Because when you go back to Ascalon, almost all of the NPC’s are still coded to say things as if you just started the game. I don’t know why whatever warmaster you mention there didn’t specify it was the last of the Charr…what a horrible narrative oversight. -__-

The warmaster in “The titan source.” He merely says “A massive charr gathering.” I’m not talking in general open world, I’m talking about within the missions themselves.

“Old Ascalon Spirit in Nolani Academy:

“The story of our destruction was foretold long ago. Our names might as well have been written in the Flameseeker Prophecies.” "

And the Nolani spirit is talking about his fellow soldiers that were on the Wall when the Searing rained down on them, he wasn’t talking about the whole kindgom.

That line can be inferred a few different ways really.