Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

I’ve found a SINGLE line of dialogue that says that. And it doesn’t say Ascalon is back to normal. I don’t even see how you could say “Ascalon is back to normal” after the searing level event (at least, instantly).

Back to normal in terms of the kingdom’s political status, not in terms of the land being back to normal…that would be silly.

Devona is a member of Ascalon’s Chosen, and I recall reading in the past that was basically the name of her crew.

That would be an incorrect name for her “crew.” Ascalon’s Chosen was her father’s guild during the 3rd Guild War. Aidan, Eve, Cynn, and Mhenlo were not members of that guild. Coincidentally, Adelbern and Rurik were.

GW beyond may be meant to prepare for GW2, but it was created by the GW1 team. I’m sorry, but since I must load up GW1 to play it, I will consider it part of GW1. To me, saying it’s GW2 is like saying an add-on mission to “Starcraft Brood War” which works to setup or imply things about “Starcraft 2” is “Starcraft 2 canon.”

It’s GW2 in terms of storyline and narration, not in terms of gameplay mechanics. Again, that would be silly.

Again, that phrase falls back on the “In Prophecies, nobody acts as if the war is over/close to over in the final two quests about Ascalon.” Hell, the one line I see ingame says “The charr army is pushed north toward their homeland.” Not routed, utterly defeated, or wiped out. So, that ties back to what I was saying. A second force may have went south (tying into you wanting Ascalon to have won the war) instead of them ‘retconing’ it into the war never ending.

I never said they were wiped out, just that the war was over. A second force? Sure. If you get to surmise more Charr reinforcements, I get to surmise more Ascalon reinforcements. Can’t have it only one way.

Yes, because an artillery shelling turns lakes and rivers into solid, thick tar that’s still present two years after the fact.

The tar isn’t poison, dude. It’s tar because the vegetation died and all the topsoil ran off into the lakes and river. If it was radioactive or poisonous, it would have hurt your health like swamps in Kryta.

I say “Like a nuke” because it turned the region INTO A WASTELAND. That is canon fact, you cannot ignore or skirt around it. Ascalon. Was. A. Wasteland.

Agree. Where does it say that it was permanent?

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

(edited by Obsidian.1328)

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Besides the fact Glint tells us explicitly Ascalon’s armies and defenses are weakened and withered? Either way, having found a line of dialogue from Mhenlo about the conflict, it looks more and more like a renewed Charr offensive post-prophecies timeline instead of a constant 100% war.

You mean his dialogue from Bejunkan Pier? Dude…that dialogue is for players who started with Factions and want to get to the Prophecies campaign. It’s bridging narration to introduce a little of what is going on for Proph. The new threat he’s talking about is the Mantle, Mursaat, Titan’s, and the Flameseeker Prophecies in general.

The warmaster in “The titan source.” He merely says “A massive charr gathering.” I’m not talking in general open world, I’m talking about within the missions themselves.

And?

“Old Ascalon Spirit in Nolani Academy:

“The story of our destruction was foretold long ago. Our names might as well have been written in the Flameseeker Prophecies.” "

And the Nolani spirit is talking about his fellow soldiers that were on the Wall when the Searing rained down on them, he wasn’t talking about the whole kindgom.

That line can be inferred a few different ways really.

Not really. That spirit is no different than Meerak’s shouting or the Mantle in the Gates of Kryta mission. The author is throwing out little tidbits of foreshadowing for the Flameseeker Prophecies themselves. The Searing is part of the Prophecy.

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I troll because I care

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

GW beyond may be meant to prepare for GW2, but it was created by the GW1 team. I’m sorry, but since I must load up GW1 to play it, I will consider it part of GW1. To me, saying it’s GW2 is like saying an add-on mission to “Starcraft Brood War” which works to setup or imply things about “Starcraft 2” is “Starcraft 2 canon.”

It’s GW2 in terms of storyline and narration, not in terms of gameplay mechanics. Again, that would be silly.

Was still made by the GW1 team and writers :P.

Again, that phrase falls back on the “In Prophecies, nobody acts as if the war is over/close to over in the final two quests about Ascalon.” Hell, the one line I see ingame says “The charr army is pushed north toward their homeland.” Not routed, utterly defeated, or wiped out. So, that ties back to what I was saying. A second force may have went south (tying into you wanting Ascalon to have won the war) instead of them ‘retconing’ it into the war never ending.

I never said they were wiped out, just that the war was over. A second force? Sure. If you get to surmise more Charr reinforcements, I get to surmise more Ascalon reinforcements. Can’t have it only one way.[/quote]

However, in one direction, we have an unknown homeland that could have far more charr that simply didn’t charge south. In the other, we have a devastated nation that explicitly has had it’s armies weakened. Where would Ascalon reinforcements come from?

The tar isn’t poison, dude. It’s tar because the vegetation died and all the topsoil ran off into the lakes and river. If it was radioactive or poisonous, it would have hurt your health like swamps in Kryta.

One cannot drink tar. I never said it was radioactive or poisonous, just that it is tar.

Agree. Where does it say that it was permanent?

Nowhere. But being a magical devastation, who knows if it’ll heal quickly or slowly. How healed it is in GW2 surprised me really. I went with the “Magical destruction, might not heal.” IIRC, there is somewhere in GW2 that basically says “The events that caused this are going to leave a permanent magical scar/effect on this spot.”

You mean his dialogue from Bejunkan Pier? Dude…that dialogue is for players who started with Factions and want to get to the Prophecies campaign. It’s bridging narration to introduce a little of what is going on for Proph. The new threat he’s talking about is the Mantle, Mursaat, Titan’s, and the Flameseeker Prophecies in general.

Um, no. I’m talking about the “welcome to Cantha” quest. Mhenlo mentions the Charr have been pushed back more toward their homeland, and he was hoping for some peace before hearing about the plague. Pretty much the only direct ingame source I can find that implies the war is over.

The warmaster in “The titan source.” He merely says “A massive charr gathering.” I’m not talking in general open world, I’m talking about within the missions themselves.

And?

You wouldn’t think it important to note his scouts apparently have discovered what was left of the charr invasion starting to gather into one force? Again, I’m saying the Warmaster’s dialogue really just comes across to me as a “Oh, we found these scary as kitten burning creatures alongside some Charr chieftains who are gathering a warband. You are pretty powerful, surely you can go deal with those creatures and disperse that massive charr gathering.”

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Was still made by the GW1 team and writers :P.

Lol. Alright. Then GW2 doesn’t exist, it should be called GW1… 250 years later!

However, in one direction, we have an unknown homeland that could have far more charr that simply didn’t charge south. In the other, we have a devastated nation that explicitly has had it’s armies weakened. Where would Ascalon reinforcements come from?

From anywhere in and around the entire Ascalon Basin. I saw you write in another post about GW1 LA population being low because you can’t see enough houses anywhere to justify a large pop. That’s not how it works, mate. These games, especially those made in mid-2000’s, didn’t exactly have all the programming resources to realistically depict a legit town. Hell, most games now can’t even do that. You’re supposed to…no, you’re invited to…use your imagination to fill in the blanks based off of in-game information and common sense. GW1 LA probably had a fictional population in the thousands or higher. Extrapolate that to a whole countryside and kingdom with an unknown number of total towns/cities, even one which had hellfire rain down on it, and you get a better picture.

You’re right we have no idea how many Charr are up there in their homelands, mind you. But to say that they can simply keep pouring in reserves, especially after losing one massive army in Orr, and another in Kryta, and a 3rd small one in Ascalon…is giving them nonsensical abilities. If they truly had that many numbers, they wouldn’t have waited so long to attack humans. The human armies were weakened from the constant Guild Wars, not annihilated, yet they can’t have reserves? Saying the Charr have some perma-spawn machine up in the Steppes is as silly as saying the Ascalon Census was an accurate depiction of the post-Searing Ascalonian total population.

One cannot drink tar. I never said it was radioactive or poisonous, just that it is tar.

Good, we agree! Not all the waterways in Ascalon were tar, by the way. In-game even.

Nowhere. But being a magical devastation, who knows if it’ll heal quickly or slowly. How healed it is in GW2 surprised me really. I went with the “Magical destruction, might not heal.” IIRC, there is somewhere in GW2 that basically says “The events that caused this are going to leave a permanent magical scar/effect on this spot.”

Of course GW2 says that, it serves their plot. Doesn’t say that in GW1 though, nothing about its “magical” comets sterilizing the land. That’s GW2 talking there.

Um, no. I’m talking about the “welcome to Cantha” quest. Mhenlo mentions the Charr have been pushed back more toward their homeland, and he was hoping for some peace before hearing about the plague. Pretty much the only direct ingame source I can find that implies the war is over.

Lol! Wow, thanks mate. I hadn’t seen that one before. I’ll add that to the list. =D

You wouldn’t think it important to note his scouts apparently have discovered what was left of the charr invasion starting to gather into one force? Again, I’m saying the Warmaster’s dialogue really just comes across to me as a “Oh, we found these scary as kitten burning creatures alongside some Charr chieftains who are gathering a warband. You are pretty powerful, surely you can go deal with those creatures and disperse that massive charr gathering.”

Dunno, maybe they don’t know it’s the last of them. Maybe the rest turned-tail and ran home after their “gods” died. Maybe Warmaster Labofski was not the best warmaster to be had in Ascalon:
“When I was just a young hooligan, I found myself before a judge on a regular basis. I stood here, inside this very building, as my punishments were read by the Magister. Back then, I can remember wishing this building would be hit by lightning or destroyed in a great fire. Never did I think it would come to be.”
I have to say this is a pickle!

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Was still made by the GW1 team and writers :P.

Lol. Alright. Then GW2 doesn’t exist, it should be called GW1… 250 years later!

No, I simply hold a distinction. EOTN, GW beyond, are GW1. They are in that timeframe and era of the setting. They are played from GW1. I count them as GW1 lore because that is what they are. The novels directly about/before GW2, GW2, and living story are all GW2 events and era, therefore, are part of the GW2 lore.

However, in one direction, we have an unknown homeland that could have far more charr that simply didn’t charge south. In the other, we have a devastated nation that explicitly has had it’s armies weakened. Where would Ascalon reinforcements come from?

From anywhere in and around the entire Ascalon Basin. I saw you write in another post about GW1 LA population being low because you can’t see enough houses anywhere to justify a large pop. That’s not how it works, mate. These games, especially those made in mid-2000’s, didn’t exactly have all the programming resources to realistically depict a legit town. Hell, most games now can’t even do that. You’re supposed to…no, you’re invited to…use your imagination to fill in the blanks based off of in-game information and common sense. GW1 LA probably had a fictional population in the thousands or higher. Extrapolate that to a whole countryside and kingdom with an unknown number of total towns/cities, even one which had hellfire rain down on it, and you get a better picture.

A: If they are in the Basin, they are part of Ascalon. Are you saying Glint was straight up lying or misinformed when she told us that the armies had withered and weakened since Rurik left?
B: If you had read my post, I never once said GW1 LA had a low population. If it’s the post I think of, I was actually going “Some people complained about the old (GW2 old, not GW1) LA because they couldn’t see it housing a big population.” Which was an actual thing back during the battle of LA. I never said I held that viewpoint.

You’re right we have no idea how many Charr are up there in their homelands, mind you. But to say that they can simply keep pouring in reserves, especially after losing one massive army in Orr, and another in Kryta, and a 3rd small one in Ascalon…is giving them nonsensical abilities. If they truly had that many numbers, they wouldn’t have waited so long to attack humans. The human armies were weakened from the constant Guild Wars, not annihilated, yet they can’t have reserves? Saying the Charr have some perma-spawn machine up in the Steppes is as silly as saying the Ascalon Census was an accurate depiction of the post-Searing Ascalonian total population.

Only, we don’t know what happened to the army in Kryta. Just that the leadership was destroyed. Also, I’m saying the charr actually have means to bring in reinforcements. Ascalon has no military allies, and Glint explicitly says the armies are weakened. You think Adelbern would simply hold reserve units back in the south playing cards instead of actively using them to buff what little defenses were left?

Good, we agree! Not all the waterways in Ascalon were tar, by the way. In-game even.

I’d have to find those ingame water spots post-searing. I don’t remember any personally :P.

Of course GW2 says that, it serves their plot. Doesn’t say that in GW1 though, nothing about its “magical” comets sterilizing the land. That’s GW2 talking there.

One can easily assume that a MAGICAL based destruction will not hold the same results as a natural/normal siege weapon one. And healing takes time. How long would it take to heal to the point of being able to rebuild large farms? Who knows.

Lol! Wow, thanks mate. I hadn’t seen that one before. I’ll add that to the list. =D

Yeah, that’s the ONLY ingame source saying the conflict is over… at that point. So you can either see it as the conflict ended, and then a NEW charr force moved south, or the war never truly ended and small fighting continued the entire time.

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Lostwingman.5034

Lostwingman.5034

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

This makes no sense when half of Ascalon had extended beyond the wall…

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Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

This makes no sense when half of Ascalon had extended beyond the wall…

And it’s noted that cities north of the wall were in more dangerous then below. We also see that Surmia had a fairly hefty wall around the city as well.

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

No, I simply hold a distinction. EOTN, GW beyond, are GW1. They are in that timeframe and era of the setting. They are played from GW1. I count them as GW1 lore because that is what they are. The novels directly about/before GW2, GW2, and living story are all GW2 events and era, therefore, are part of the GW2 lore.

If you really believe that, that is astounding.

A: If they are in the Basin, they are part of Ascalon. Are you saying Glint was straight up lying or misinformed when she told us that the armies had withered and weakened since Rurik left?

No, that is true, their forces had weakened in Rurik’s absence. The Charr were weakened to. They both were weakened, killing off the remaining Charr leaders and the Titans are supposed to be seen as the deciding factor in the war. Do you not see that?

B: If you had read my post, I never once said GW1 LA had a low population. If it’s the post I think of, I was actually going “Some people complained about the old (GW2 old, not GW1) LA because they couldn’t see it housing a big population.” Which was an actual thing back during the battle of LA. I never said I held that viewpoint.

Ah kitten , keep forgetting that now there’s an old old LA, and a new old LA. :-P

Only, we don’t know what happened to the army in Kryta. Just that the leadership was destroyed. Also, I’m saying the charr actually have means to bring in reinforcements. Ascalon has no military allies, and Glint explicitly says the armies are weakened. You think Adelbern would simply hold reserve units back in the south playing cards instead of actively using them to buff what little defenses were left?

I’m saying that you’re simply inferring the Charr had plenty of reserves to use based solely on the fact that their homeland was “off the map.” And I’m saying Ascalon could have had more reserves because there was a lot of Ascalon “off the map.” I.e., if you can say there were more Charr waiting up north to swoop down, I can say there were more Ascalon soldiers in the south who were held up because of dealing with Charr stragglers on their way to Orr. I could literally make up any reason why there would be more down there.

I’d have to find those ingame water spots post-searing. I don’t remember any personally :P.

Yeah, there’s not many. But a few of those waterways didn’t “slow” me when I crossed them.

One can easily assume that a MAGICAL based destruction will not hold the same results as a natural/normal siege weapon one. And healing takes time. How long would it take to heal to the point of being able to rebuild large farms? Who knows.

That’s fine, as long as you label it an assumption and not an idea supported by in-game evidence or allusions.

Yeah, that’s the ONLY ingame source saying the conflict is over… at that point. So you can either see it as the conflict ended, and then a NEW charr force moved south, or the war never truly ended and small fighting continued the entire time.

So if Mhenlo was correct, and I see no reason to doubt him, Ascalon actually reconquered the north and then immediately lost it again in the next few years? Is that what you’re going with here?

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

This makes no sense when half of Ascalon had extended beyond the wall…

Kalavier is kinda right on this. The Wall was started in 898 AE and finished sometime before 1013. What’s odd is that is was supposedly erected as a safe-guard against increased Charr activity, yet cities like Surmia and Drascir(the former capital) were founded during or after the Wall’s construction. The Charr supposedly starting their invasion of the human kingdoms in 1070, the same year as the Searing. So I guess it didn’t take them that long to win the north, since there are Charr right on the other side of the Wall in pre-searing Ascalon.

Most of that is from the wiki. But reading all the the editing histories of some GW wiki pages is like being in the editing room of a newspaper with 30 journalists trying to tell you what to print.

Take it all with a grain of salt.

~note: I don’t mean it personally, for any of you GW1 wiki contributors out there. It’s a hard and thankless job, and my hats off to ya’ll. I only mean that there are sometimes so many opinions about some topics that it’s nearly impossible to tell original intention.

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

(edited by Obsidian.1328)

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

No, I simply hold a distinction. EOTN, GW beyond, are GW1. They are in that timeframe and era of the setting. They are played from GW1. I count them as GW1 lore because that is what they are. The novels directly about/before GW2, GW2, and living story are all GW2 events and era, therefore, are part of the GW2 lore.

If you really believe that, that is astounding.

Why? Because I don’t choose to cherry-pick against EOTN and GW beyond events when talking about GW1? Fact is, they are canon. That is the path the OWNERS of the game decided to go with. Maybe if you could go prod the main writer of Prophecies and get him to come out and state exactly how he saw the story moving forward before he left…

A: If they are in the Basin, they are part of Ascalon. Are you saying Glint was straight up lying or misinformed when she told us that the armies had withered and weakened since Rurik left?

No, that is true, their forces had weakened in Rurik’s absence. The Charr were weakened to. They both were weakened, killing off the remaining Charr leaders and the Titans are supposed to be seen as the deciding factor in the war. Do you not see that?

As I’ve said. The only implication/statement about the war being finished is from factions, if you brought over a nightfall or proph char. In my completely honest opinion, if it was meant to be the end of the war, they showed that very poorly. It didn’t feel as if the charr conflict was ending or over at the end of titan source.

B: If you had read my post, I never once said GW1 LA had a low population. If it’s the post I think of, I was actually going “Some people complained about the old (GW2 old, not GW1) LA because they couldn’t see it housing a big population.” Which was an actual thing back during the battle of LA. I never said I held that viewpoint.

Ah kitten , keep forgetting that now there’s an old old LA, and a new old LA. :-P

Yeah. Some complained about old GW2 LA housing. I simply agree that the newest LA looks more like a city :P.

I’m saying that you’re simply inferring the Charr had plenty of reserves to use based solely on the fact that their homeland was “off the map.” And I’m saying Ascalon could have had more reserves because there was a lot of Ascalon “off the map.” I.e., if you can say there were more Charr waiting up north to swoop down, I can say there were more Ascalon soldiers in the south who were held up because of dealing with Charr stragglers on their way to Orr. I could literally make up any reason why there would be more down there.

And many of them wouldn’t make sense at all. I’m saying that the charr may have had more people to the north. You are pulling people out of thin air for Ascalon.

The difference is saying “Hey, Charr called home and asked for reinforcements” makes more sense then “Adelbern has reserve units in the south most regions of Ascalon who are 100% fresh and prepared to fight.” So these reserve units and soldiers spent two WHOLE years dealing with “stragglers” that prevented them from being deployed to the wall? Doesn’t make sense. It comes across as going “You can’t have that!” without a valid reason of “Why?”

Why can’t I reason the charr would be able to bring reinforcements south?

One can easily assume that a MAGICAL based destruction will not hold the same results as a natural/normal siege weapon one. And healing takes time. How long would it take to heal to the point of being able to rebuild large farms? Who knows.

That’s fine, as long as you label it an assumption and not an idea supported by in-game evidence or allusions.

And nothing in-game held evidence or implications that Ascalon would heal quickly, if at all. What ingame says Ascalon would heal?

Yeah, that’s the ONLY ingame source saying the conflict is over… at that point. So you can either see it as the conflict ended, and then a NEW charr force moved south, or the war never truly ended and small fighting continued the entire time.

So if Mhenlo was correct, and I see no reason to doubt him, Ascalon actually reconquered the north and then immediately lost it again in the next few years? Is that what you’re going with here?

Or that the Charr armies were pushed back and Ascalon simply held lands south of the wall for security reasons.

And would it be shocking that the weakened Ascalon army would be pushed back if a new, fresh charr army went south?

Because you are either going to kitten and moan about them “RETCONING ASCALON WINNING!”, or accept that maybe Ascalon won for a short while, then a new charr force went south.

Which, amusingly, links back to my whole “Maybe the charr brought reinforcements in.” Looks like it actually has some canon, factual lore backing based of Mhenlo’s statements.

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

1st Question: What’s your opinion on the whole Ascalon discussion?

Ascalonians have every right to be kittened of. And every non char, in general, has every reason to be worried about the Charr society and their ways of achieving their goals. They are ruthless, they are militaristic, they use force first, they go out of any reasonable way to get what they want, and they have been building the death star while everyone looks somewhere else.

2nd Question: How do you think do these discussion become this bizarre almost-roleplay where people take the whole discussion so seriously?

This is a role playing game. People tend to forget that, but that’s what it is at its heart. When i am playing an ascalonian who grew up in Ebonhawk, being constantly threatened by the Charr, knowing your grandparents were slaughtered in the searing and all their friends decimated, when you live night and day waiting for the big bad cat to come and eat you, you don’t take it lightly when someone who is not your queen decrees that now you are at peace with the monsters, that you will no longer fight them out of your grandparent’s lands, and that you have to fight alonside them… how are you not going to take it seriously?

You can of course follow the other route: this is not a rpg game, but a grinding/farming machine and we are all mindless drones flying from target to target. If that’s how you like to play rpgs it’s fine, but that’s switching off your brain, and the human brain is the most powerful machine for generating fun. It’s like reading a book from a totally detached perspective. You will finish it, but you will be far away from really enjoing it.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Why? Because I don’t choose to cherry-pick against EOTN and GW beyond events when talking about GW1? Fact is, they are canon. That is the path the OWNERS of the game decided to go with. Maybe if you could go prod the main writer of Prophecies and get him to come out and state exactly how he saw the story moving forward before he left…

No, because you are cherry-picking. Those owners, as you say, of the game even state that EotN is meant as bridging the storylines between the games. Not to mention it’s painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain. If you can straight-faced say that EotN was a logical “4th installment” to the Guild Wars series, and had nothing to do with what narrative they wanted to produce for GW2, then you have no business posting anything in these forums.

As I’ve said. The only implication/statement about the war being finished is from factions, if you brought over a nightfall or proph char. In my completely honest opinion, if it was meant to be the end of the war, they showed that very poorly. It didn’t feel as if the charr conflict was ending or over at the end of titan source.

The implication was there in Proph. The statement from Mhenlo is backed up by Empire Divided…which wasn’t written for the wiki, but as canon as an out-of-game document from an in-game perspective. The end was poorly shown, you’re right. But that’s for 2 reasons. 1) The Charr were never conceived as a playable race, and their assault on humanity was only meant as a catalyst to the Prophecies narrative. 2) Just like the Mantle, the original storyline of Proph never revisits those outliers after you kill their leaders(Titans and Mursaat respectively) and they are assumed to be gone…even after another campaign was released. Why? Because there were no plans to come back to Ascalon back then for anything. Utopia, the cancelled 4th campaign, was supposed to be in Maguuma. It actually wasn’t until GW2 development itself(EotN) that we revisit Ascalon and the Charr and that’s the first time we see a different ending being told.

And many of them wouldn’t make sense at all. I’m saying that the charr may have had more people to the north. You are pulling people out of thin air for Ascalon.

The difference is saying “Hey, Charr called home and asked for reinforcements” makes more sense then “Adelbern has reserve units in the south most regions of Ascalon who are 100% fresh and prepared to fight.” So these reserve units and soldiers spent two WHOLE years dealing with “stragglers” that prevented them from being deployed to the wall? Doesn’t make sense. It comes across as going “You can’t have that!” without a valid reason of “Why?”

And you’re pulling Charr out of thin air as well. It doesn’t make logical sense that the Charr have so many numbers either. Heck even if you go by the EotN storyline, they were constantly under attack by the Vanguard, Adelbern, and even some Norn, lost their second set of leaders and gods(Destroyers), go through a civil war, in the middle of another war, mind you, and yet still manage to roflstomp Ascalon into oblivion.

And me saying Ascalon could have had more soldiers down south somewhere is crazy…

And nothing in-game held evidence or implications that Ascalon would heal quickly, if at all. What ingame says Ascalon would heal?

What in-game evidence says it wouldn’t?

Or that the Charr armies were pushed back and Ascalon simply held lands south of the wall for security reasons.

And would it be shocking that the weakened Ascalon army would be pushed back if a new, fresh charr army went south?

Because you are either going to kitten and moan about them “RETCONING ASCALON WINNING!”, or accept that maybe Ascalon won for a short while, then a new charr force went south.

Which, amusingly, links back to my whole “Maybe the charr brought reinforcements in.” Looks like it actually has some canon, factual lore backing based of Mhenlo’s statements.

Except that’s not what “officially” happened. Nowhere in EotN or later does it say anything about Ascalon taking back the north. According to GW2, the Charr never lost it.

ANet basically outright ignored Mhenlo’s and Ermenred’s statements.

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Posted by: Teletric.1980

Teletric.1980

To be honest, humans did take over the Charrs’ homeland. It wasn’t their land to begin with so I honestly think the Charrs were justified to do what they were doing.

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

To be honest, humans did take over the Charrs’ homeland. It wasn’t their land to begin with so I honestly think the Charrs were justified to do what they were doing.

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

To be honest, humans did take over the Charrs’ homeland. It wasn’t their land to begin with so I honestly think the Charrs were justified to do what they were doing.

The Charr homelands were in the Blazeridge Steppes, somewhere NE of the Ascalon Basin. GW2 ANet changed that in 2012.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

No, because you are cherry-picking. Those owners, as you say, of the game even state that EotN is meant as bridging the storylines between the games. If you can straight-faced say that EotN was a logical “4th installment” to the Guild Wars series, and had nothing to do with what narrative they wanted to produce for GW2, then you have no business posting anything in these forums.

EOTN is gw1. You could argue Beyond is kinda “1.5” (as a friend who played all of GW1 content said when I asked him about it). I’m Cherry picking because I include nearly everything in the GW1 game? Interesting. How is Factions a “logical” second installment to Prophecies? How was Nightfall a “logical” third chapter? Until toward the end of nightfall, the events were all unrelated. Then Abbaddon was revealed to have masterminded a lot of this stuff. Since you don’t work at Anet, don’t talk to the writing team/original writer (as far as I can tell), what makes you able to concretely state EOTN is only considered part of GW2?

The implication was there in Proph. The statement from Mhenlo is backed up by Empire Divided…which wasn’t written for the wiki, but as canon as an out-of-game document from an in-game perspective. The end was poorly shown, you’re right. But that’s for 2 reasons. 1) The Charr were never conceived as a playable race, and their assault on humanity was only meant as a catalyst to the Prophecies narrative. Why? Because there were no plans to come back to Ascalon back then for anything. It actually wasn’t until GW2 development itself(EotN) that we revisit Ascalon and the Charr and that’s the first time we see a different ending being told.

I saw no implication within prophecies itself. And it would’ve been EASY to do. Add a bit in Titan source about going back to the warmaster. Then he informs you that his scouts (and other scouts across ascalon) are noticing the charr actually pulling back north.

And you’re pulling Charr out of thin air as well. It doesn’t make logical sense that the Charr have so many numbers either. Heck even if you go by the EotN storyline, they were constantly under attack by the Vanguard, Adelbern, and even some Norn, lost their second set of leaders and gods(Destroyers), go through a civil war, in the middle of another war, mind you, and yet still manage to roflstomp Ascalon into oblivion.

And me saying Ascalon could have had more soldiers down south somewhere is crazy…

Compare the statements.

A: Charr may bring in a fresh, second force from their homelands in the north.
B: Adelbern will bring up reserve ascalon army units from the south end of the country that have spent two years doing nothing (Or in your example, two entire years dealing with ‘stragglers’).

A, IMO, can make sense. It’s like America sending a fresh wave of soldiers oversea to reinforce fighting deployments.
B, IMO, doesn’t. What reason would he have for keeping sizable numbers of soldiers south, instead of on the front lines where they are desperately needed? We know Ascalon’s armies are weakened. Charr are unknown.

Also, do remember, Pyres revolution didn’t do much of anything until AFTER the foefire, when the Flame Legion imperator died. Ebon Vanguard was skilled, but a distraction. We see them basically get stomped and almost entirely captured at one point when the Charr apparently gave them direct attention. Norn actually left the charr alone, and only stomped the idiot warbands that caused trouble. It’s stated at that point one army, or even an entire legion could easily sweep aside the Norn if the Charr wanted. Ascalon’s army was weakened from prophecies, and may not have recovered. Number wise mainly.

Having soldiers in the south isn’t crazy. Making implications that Adelbern had a fresh army down there that’d turn the tide of war? Not so much.

And nothing in-game held evidence or implications that Ascalon would heal quickly, if at all. What ingame says Ascalon would heal?

What in-game evidence says it wouldn’t?

This will be endless. There is nothing ingame that says Ascalon would heal fully. There is nothing ingame saying Ascalon would never heal. However, in the timeframe of Prophecies things got worst. Would you stick around on the hope and dream that it might heal?

Except that’s not what “officially” happened. Nowhere in EotN or later does it say anything about Ascalon taking back the north. According to GW2, the Charr never lost it.

ANet basically outright ignored Mhenlo’s and Ermenred’s statements.

Again, maybe the charr got pushed out, and Adelbern decided that holding the northern end of Ascalon was never going to work, and thus focused the population south of the wall where it provided a limited amount of safety. Since Ascalon’s army and defenses are EXPLICITLY stated to be weaker.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

you don’t take it lightly when someone who is not your queen decrees that now you are at peace with the monsters, that you will no longer fight them out of your grandparent’s lands, and that you have to fight alonside them… how are you not going to take it seriously?

And anybody with common sense would know retaking Ascalon is impossible. And if you choose to continue trying to fight an endless war with no good prospects vs noticing the brand and the dangers of the dragons…

Let’s just say it this way. If Ebonhawke decided to go “kitten THE QUEEN!” and continue the war, She’d simply pull all support from it. Let’s see how they like it with no Asura gate to bring in food and supplies, or reinforcements in the form of the Fallen Angels or other people.

I can accept in character and OOC responses of “I don’t like this.” but think in the larger picture. Ebonhawke wasn’t winning. The treaty actually gives them a decent amount of land outside of the walls, as well as ending the raids from the charr. It gives children a chance to grow up without fear of a siege round sailing over the wall and destroying their home.

Literally the mindset is “kitten PEACE, WE WANT TO DIE IN WAR!”

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

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Posted by: Oreithyia.3064

Oreithyia.3064

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

wasn’t Ascalon Grawl inhabited and the charr occupied it and them?
the charr took it from the grawl first, so i don’t think you can call it homeland in the sense of “land of origin” or even “charrland”. If anything it’s “grawl homeland”.
“Grawl are originally native to the lands now called Ascalon. When the charr invaded over a millennia ago, they subjugated the grawl into slaves and forced a large number of them to flee into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains, where their descendants still remain today. According to charr military tributes which predate the humans’ arrival to the land in 100 BE, those that remained in Ascalon as the charr’s slaves were forced into roles such as pulling charr chariots.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grawl

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

wasn’t Ascalon Grawl inhabited and the charr occupied it and them?
the charr took it from the grawl first, so i don’t think you can call it homeland in the sense of “land of origin” or even “charrland”.
“Grawl are originally native to the lands now called Ascalon. When the charr invaded over a millennia ago, they subjugated the grawl into slaves and forced a large number of them to flee into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains, where their descendants still remain today. According to charr military tributes which predate the humans’ arrival to the land in 100 BE, those that remained in Ascalon as the charr’s slaves were forced into roles such as pulling charr chariots.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grawl

I don’t call it homeland (though for everyone who was born here is can be called such), but it was charr land when humans came and took it by force.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

“We’ll just kick everybody else out, then throw a fit when they come back angry and with a vengeance.”

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

Expected yes but not justified. The humans that got their land taken from the charr werent the ones that that took it from the charr long time ago. By the time the searing happend it was already human land and not charr land anymore.

Also a genocide in the past doesnt justify a genocide in the present.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Expected yes but not justified. The humans that got their land taken from the charr werent the ones that that took it from the charr long time ago. By the time the searing happend it was already human land and not charr land anymore.

Also a genocide in the past doesnt justify a genocide in the present.

Ascalon was already expanding to north, beyond Wall, becoming stronger with each new settlement and not showing any will to negotiate with charr. I guess it was pretty clear what charr could expect from that.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

EOTN is gw1. You could argue Beyond is kinda “1.5” (as a friend who played all of GW1 content said when I asked him about it). I’m Cherry picking because I include nearly everything in the GW1 game? Interesting. How is Factions a “logical” second installment to Prophecies? How was Nightfall a “logical” third chapter? Until toward the end of nightfall, the events were all unrelated. Then Abbaddon was revealed to have masterminded a lot of this stuff. Since you don’t work at Anet, don’t talk to the writing team/original writer (as far as I can tell), what makes you able to concretely state EOTN is only considered part of GW2?

Wow. Factions and Nightfall were created to serve the GW1 foundational narrative set by Prophecies, not to serve an entirely new game. You can’t say that for EotN…it’s narrative purpose was to introduce the GW2 story. I never said anything about it’s gameplay mechanics or time-frame being GW2 material. You really don’t need more than a rudimentary understanding of fiction writing to get that.

I saw no implication within prophecies itself. And it would’ve been EASY to do. Add a bit in Titan source about going back to the warmaster. Then he informs you that his scouts (and other scouts across ascalon) are noticing the charr actually pulling back north.

Again, since GW1 Anet never went back to add anything to Proph, the implication is in whatever happened at the end combined with anything said about it from future campaigns. Which it did.

Compare the statements.

A: Charr may bring in a fresh, second force from their homelands in the north.
B: Adelbern will bring up reserve ascalon army units from the south end of the country that have spent two years doing nothing (Or in your example, two entire years dealing with ‘stragglers’).

Makes sense to me. Again, you’re still assuming the Charr had reserves. If you can do that, so can I. And I, like you, can make up whatever reason in the wide, wide, world of sports that could make that true.

Also, do remember, Pyres revolution didn’t do much of anything until AFTER the foefire, when the Flame Legion imperator died. Ebon Vanguard was skilled, but a distraction. We see them basically get stomped and almost entirely captured at one point when the Charr apparently gave them direct attention. Norn actually left the charr alone, and only stomped the idiot warbands that caused trouble. It’s stated at that point one army, or even an entire legion could easily sweep aside the Norn if the Charr wanted. Ascalon’s army was weakened from prophecies, and may not have recovered. Number wise mainly.

So in ten years Ascalon can’t recover, but the Charr can? Bias.

Having soldiers in the south isn’t crazy. Making implications that Adelbern had a fresh army down there that’d turn the tide of war? Not so much.

I never said fresh, and army is an army. The Charr certainly had their share of lost numbers too. Regardless, this specific argument was a theoretical one based on a non-GW2 narrative…which doesn’t hold up because we both could just end up arguing imaginary forces “off-the-map” until the cows came home.

This will be endless. There is nothing ingame that says Ascalon would heal fully. There is nothing ingame saying Ascalon would never heal. However, in the timeframe of Prophecies things got worst. Would you stick around on the hope and dream that it might heal?

You’re right, it’s an endless argument because, like the above argument, we’re just “supposing” things that neither of us can prove could have happened.

Again, maybe the charr got pushed out, and Adelbern decided that holding the northern end of Ascalon was never going to work, and thus focused the population south of the wall where it provided a limited amount of safety. Since Ascalon’s army and defenses are EXPLICITLY stated to be weaker.

So since you didn’t comment on it, you agree GW2 ANet ignored those two statements? Ok.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

Huh? Ascalonians never inflicted genocide on the Charr, I don’t know where you get that. They pushed them out of the Basin via warfare, then left them alone.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Expected yes but not justified. The humans that got their land taken from the charr werent the ones that that took it from the charr long time ago. By the time the searing happend it was already human land and not charr land anymore.

Also a genocide in the past doesnt justify a genocide in the present.

Ascalon was already expanding to north, beyond Wall, becoming stronger with each new settlement and not showing any will to negotiate with charr. I guess it was pretty clear what charr could expect from that.

Huh?? When did the Charr ever want to negotiate anything with humans(or any other race for that matter) in a thousand years? You’re just throwing out random fallacies at this point.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

“We’ll just kick everybody else out, then throw a fit when they come back angry and with a vengeance.”

Said no Ascalonian ever.

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

Expected yes but not justified. The humans that got their land taken from the charr werent the ones that that took it from the charr long time ago. By the time the searing happend it was already human land and not charr land anymore.

Also a genocide in the past doesnt justify a genocide in the present.

Ascalon was already expanding to north, beyond Wall, becoming stronger with each new settlement and not showing any will to negotiate with charr. I guess it was pretty clear what charr could expect from that.

Ehh? I dont recall the humans trying to expand beyond the wall. If i remember correctly from gw1 they were rather content with the area they already had. The only expansions beyond the wall were scouting missions due the fear of a charr inversion.

And as if the charr were anymore willing to negotiate. They killed/enslaved any human on sight.

I think it is pretty clear that the charr were the aggressors in gw1 not the humans.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Huh? Ascalonians never inflicted genocide on the Charr, I don’t know where you get that. They pushed them out of the Basin via warfare, then left them alone.

Have you seen a single charr tribe, settlement or even a specimen in Ascalon? Or every single member of tribes living here was hostile and decided to migrate or suicide? “Pushed out”, uh-huh.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Ehh? I dont recall the humans trying to expand beyond the wall. If i remember correctly from gw1 they were rather content with the area they already had. The only expansions beyond the wall were scouting missions due the fear of a charr inversion.

And as if the charr were anymore willing to negotiate. They killed/enslaved any human on sight.

I think it is pretty clear that the charr were the aggressors in gw1 not the humans.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Great_Northern_Wall
The Great Northern Wall, referred to as Northern Wall, the Great Wall, and the Wall for short, began construction in 898 AE; it stretches from the Shiverpeak Mountains in the west, to the Eastern Frontier. It was built before the start of the latest Guild Wars, when the Charr threat began to appear imminent once again. The Wall was erected to protect the bulk of the Ascalon kingdom. However, over time the Ascalonians began expanding north beyond the Wall, establishing cities not protected by the Wall, including Surmia, Nolani, and Drascir, which became the capital until it fell during the Charr invasion.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Huh? Ascalonians never inflicted genocide on the Charr, I don’t know where you get that. They pushed them out of the Basin via warfare, then left them alone.

Have you seen a single charr tribe, settlement or even a specimen in Ascalon? Or every single member of tribes living here was hostile and decided to migrate or suicide? “Pushed out”, uh-huh.

That’s because the Charr didn’t have any settlements in Ascalon, silly man. They were mostly nomadic in GW1, modeled roughly after RL Mongolians. They “owned” a whole lot more territory than they actually lived in.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

That’s because the Charr didn’t have any settlements in Ascalon, silly man. They were mostly nomadic in GW1, modeled roughly after RL Mongolians. They “owned” a whole lot more territory than they actually lived in.

This is not an answer. Even nomads have settlements, temporary ones, but still. “B-but they are nomads” doesn’t explain complete absence of charr on Ascalon territory.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Ehh? I dont recall the humans trying to expand beyond the wall. If i remember correctly from gw1 they were rather content with the area they already had. The only expansions beyond the wall were scouting missions due the fear of a charr inversion.

And as if the charr were anymore willing to negotiate. They killed/enslaved any human on sight.

I think it is pretty clear that the charr were the aggressors in gw1 not the humans.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Great_Northern_Wall
The Great Northern Wall, referred to as Northern Wall, the Great Wall, and the Wall for short, began construction in 898 AE; it stretches from the Shiverpeak Mountains in the west, to the Eastern Frontier. It was built before the start of the latest Guild Wars, when the Charr threat began to appear imminent once again. The Wall was erected to protect the bulk of the Ascalon kingdom. However, over time the Ascalonians began expanding north beyond the Wall, establishing cities not protected by the Wall, including Surmia, Nolani, and Drascir, which became the capital until it fell during the Charr invasion.

You’re right about Ascalons living north of the wall, but you’re assuming that the Charr were always there too…which wasn’t the case. Just like the Charr had swathes of land that they didn’t necessarily live in, the Ascalon lands in the north Basin were sparsely settled. But that didn’t mean Charr were there, it still was part of the Ascalon kingdom. The humans drove them out of the whole Basin almost 1200 years before the Searing, and they didn’t come back until right before the Searing.

I also wouldn’t trust the wiki too much. GW1 wiki said the Wall took less the 200 years to build, the GW2 wiki says 900. Odd.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

That’s because the Charr didn’t have any settlements in Ascalon, silly man. They were mostly nomadic in GW1, modeled roughly after RL Mongolians. They “owned” a whole lot more territory than they actually lived in.

This is not an answer. Even nomads have settlements, temporary ones, but still. “B-but they are nomads” doesn’t explain complete absence of charr on Ascalon territory.

Yes, it does. GW1 creators had ruins all over the place for older tribes and civilizations, they knew who used to live where. Ascalon had none.

Also, arguing a case for genocide based solely on the absence of settlements is hardly a sound argument.

~Correction: it could be argued the Catacombs were not Ascalonian in origin, but they certainly weren’t Charr either.

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(edited by Obsidian.1328)

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

You’re right about Ascalons living north of the wall, but you’re assuming that the Charr were always there too…which wasn’t the case. Just like the Charr had swathes of land that they didn’t necessarily live in, the Ascalon lands in the north Basin were sparsely settled. But that didn’t mean Charr were there, it still was part of the Ascalon kingdom. The humans drove them out of the whole Basin almost 1200 years before the Searing, and they didn’t come back until right before the Searing.

I also wouldn’t trust the wiki too much. GW1 wiki said the Wall took less the 200 years to build, the GW2 wiki says 900. Odd.

And yet Ascalon expansion to north was a fact. Placing a new capital beyond the Wall was clearest sign of it.

Yes, it does. GW1 creators had ruins all over the place

Ruins are not part of that topic. Wood and hides wont make ruins.

arguing a case for genocide based solely on the absence of settlements

Based on absence of EVERYTHING charr. You even can find lots of grawl in pre-Searing Ascalon, and yet all charr are gone.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Wow. Factions and Nightfall were created to serve the GW1 foundational narrative set by Prophecies, not to serve an entirely new game. You can’t say that for EotN…it’s narrative purpose was to introduce the GW2 story. I never said anything about it’s gameplay mechanics or time-frame being GW2 material. You really don’t need more than a rudimentary understanding of fiction writing to get that.

And I feel like EOTN connects fine to either lore setting, but I link it to GW1. You’ll have to agree to disagree, but either viewpoint doesn’t disqualify our opinions. EOTN is canon. denying the events there around Ascalon is cherry-picking.

Compare the statements.

A: Charr may bring in a fresh, second force from their homelands in the north.
B: Adelbern will bring up reserve ascalon army units from the south end of the country that have spent two years doing nothing (Or in your example, two entire years dealing with ‘stragglers’).

Makes sense to me. Again, you’re still assuming the Charr had reserves. If you can do that, so can I. And I, like you, can make up whatever reason in the wide, wide, world of sports that could make that true.

You seem to fail to understand the point. The charr were invading. We have no idea their homeland. It is rational to think that maybe they had more forces. Hell, we didn’t have a clue in prophecies if we killed off the equivalent to a field general, or the leaders of all charr everywhere!

RL comparision. This is like me saying “America sends a fresh group of soldiers to Europe to aid in the fighting.” And you going “Well, Hilter then pulls out a brand new, fresh, reserve army that he didn’t use ever before!”

You are assuming Ascalon has reserves when the lore explicitly states their armies were weakened. And as the canon events apparently turned out, the Charr DID bring down a new army, and Ascalon did NOT have reserve units of great number (If any, because that’d imply Adelbern purposefully held back Ascalon soldiers from the front line and had them out of combat).

Also, do remember, Pyres revolution didn’t do much of anything until AFTER the foefire, when the Flame Legion imperator died. Ebon Vanguard was skilled, but a distraction. We see them basically get stomped and almost entirely captured at one point when the Charr apparently gave them direct attention. Norn actually left the charr alone, and only stomped the idiot warbands that caused trouble. It’s stated at that point one army, or even an entire legion could easily sweep aside the Norn if the Charr wanted. Ascalon’s army was weakened from prophecies, and may not have recovered. Number wise mainly.

So in ten years Ascalon can’t recover, but the Charr can? Bias.

Because the charr have a homeland that was untouched by the war, and for all we know may not have sent their full strength south? And the fact that Ascalon wouldn’t have untouched, fresh and ready for combat reserves just sitting around doing nothing.

There is no bias in saying “Hey, the invaders whose home base was never even damaged, much less their home population severely culled, would be more likely to bring forth a fresh army sooner then defenders who have been greatly weakened!” It’s not bias when explicitly Ascalon’s forces were left greatly weakened by the end of prophecies.

Having soldiers in the south isn’t crazy. Making implications that Adelbern had a fresh army down there that’d turn the tide of war? Not so much.

I never said fresh, and army is an army. The Charr certainly had their share of lost numbers too. Regardless, this specific argument was a theoretical one based on a non-GW2 narrative…which doesn’t hold up because we both could just end up arguing imaginary forces “off-the-map” until the cows came home.

Only, factually according to what I’ve seen… the Charr did bring forth a new army. Ascalon is stated explicitly to have been weakened. Are you saying Glint doesn’t have a kittening clue what she’s talking about?

Again, maybe the charr got pushed out, and Adelbern decided that holding the northern end of Ascalon was never going to work, and thus focused the population south of the wall where it provided a limited amount of safety. Since Ascalon’s army and defenses are EXPLICITLY stated to be weaker.

So since you didn’t comment on it, you agree GW2 ANet ignored those two statements? Ok.

Nothing I see says they did. Mhenlo’s statement implies at least a short period of peace. Since that line would (timeline wise) come shortly after end of prophecies, maybe that hopeful peace lasted shorter then Mhenlo liked.

Maybe the Ebon Vanguard (the Ascalon Vanguard originally) sent north triggered renewed attacks from the charr southward by their raids.

Ascalon as a non-Prophecies player

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Posted by: Adam ct.8694

Adam ct.8694

I was a red blooded ascalonian. I roamed around the ruins even after completing EOTN. (God it was fun nuking low level charr for holliday items.) Piken Square was my trolling grounds, and yet I feel no resentment to the charr. The charr come we fight then they leave. the charr come back stronger but we’re stronger for it. A sort of anime rivals deal. For me the Charr human joint effort is kind of just character progression.

But let us not forget the true enemy. The one who took our dear prince Rurik from us. Thr Dwarf and a drake. Lets not forget the centaurs that took out some refugees…

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

And yet Ascalon expansion to north was a fact. Placing a new capital beyond the Wall was clearest sign of it.

Er…you’re right, I already agreed with you. A different person was arguing that with you.

Ruins are not part of that topic. Wood and hides wont make ruins.
Based on absence of EVERYTHING charr. You even can find lots of grawl in pre-Searing Ascalon, and yet all charr are gone.

Umm…you’re arguing that there’s no evidence left of possible Charr settlements in Ascalon, because wood and hides won’t make ruins. Dot dot dot.
There’s grawl there still because the grawl, unlike the Charr, didn’t make it their mission in life to exterminate humans. Not to mention they didn’t/don’t have anything resembling armies, they are meant to be portrayed as a local countryside danger, not as an invasion force. Humans don’t go to war over anything remotely harmful that’s inside their borders, that’s the Charr remember?

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

And I feel like EOTN connects fine to either lore setting, but I link it to GW1. You’ll have to agree to disagree, but either viewpoint doesn’t disqualify our opinions. EOTN is canon. denying the events there around Ascalon is cherry-picking.

If by cherry-picking you mean critical thinking, then yes I’m guilty. If you want to white-knight ANet simply because they hold the keys to the kingdom, that’s your problem not mine. I won’t agree to disagree if you won’t try and use common sense.

You seem to fail to understand the point. The charr were invading. We have no idea their homeland. It is rational to think that maybe they had more forces. Hell, we didn’t have a clue in prophecies if we killed off the equivalent to a field general, or the leaders of all charr everywhere!

And we have no idea of Ascalon’s full homeland either. How many other cities do you think Ascalon could have had that were off the map?

RL comparision. This is like me saying “America sends a fresh group of soldiers to Europe to aid in the fighting.” And you going “Well, Hilter then pulls out a brand new, fresh, reserve army that he didn’t use ever before!”

Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein.

You are assuming Ascalon has reserves when the lore explicitly states their armies were weakened. And as the canon events apparently turned out, the Charr DID bring down a new army, and Ascalon did NOT have reserve units of great number (If any, because that’d imply Adelbern purposefully held back Ascalon soldiers from the front line and had them out of combat).

As were the Charr armies weakened. Again, if you get to auto-spawn Charr reserves, so do I.

Because the charr have a homeland that was untouched by the war, and for all we know may not have sent their full strength south? And the fact that Ascalon wouldn’t have untouched, fresh and ready for combat reserves just sitting around doing nothing.

Again, if you get to auto-spawn Charr reserves, so do I.

There is no bias in saying “Hey, the invaders whose home base was never even damaged, much less their home population severely culled, would be more likely to bring forth a fresh army sooner then defenders who have been greatly weakened!” It’s not bias when explicitly Ascalon’s forces were left greatly weakened by the end of prophecies.

So were the Charr.

Only, factually according to what I’ve seen… the Charr did bring forth a new army. Ascalon is stated explicitly to have been weakened.

Same as above.

Nothing I see says they did. Mhenlo’s statement implies at least a short period of peace. Since that line would (timeline wise) come shortly after end of prophecies, maybe that hopeful peace lasted shorter then Mhenlo liked.

Maybe the Ebon Vanguard (the Ascalon Vanguard originally) sent north triggered renewed attacks from the charr southward by their raids.

…except there’s nothing in GW2 that says the Charr ever got pushed out of the Ascalon Basin. Nor how the war was over according to Ermenred. So they ignored both.

The Ebon Vanguard itself is proof of how easy it is to “write-in” more troops. Most of its former Ascalan Vanguard troops went with Rurik west. Yet they still had enough troops for a small army to march north. Where did all these troops come from? I thought Ascalon was on the brink!! Poof…“human refugees, exiles, and escaped prisoners” that’s where. The pencil is mightier than the sword. (cuz anet censors won’t let me write “pen” and “is” in the same sentence…)
______________________________________________

You really need to stop trying to justify GW2 writing by using some sort of RL supply and transportation analysis of a video game. My point is it could have gone either way given the right writing. Heck, they could have made the Centaurs take over Kryta had they wanted…and they could have made it seem legit too. They could have done anything they wanted to too…which is exactly what they did.

The fact is, according to the original writing, Ascalon was supposed to have won the war. Aside from the few NPC quotes which say so, the clues and allusions in the game itself are entirely self-evident. I can’t teach narrative analysis, so I guess you’re on your own on this one. That the author(s) both never definitively said so, nor ever revisited Ascalon in any “victors” scenario, is the precise reason ANet was able to do what they did with the narrative.

They didn’t capitalize on any ambivalence, there wasn’t really any to begin with. They created the ambivalence themselves, milked it into plausible deniability, and then finally wrote not only a different ending…but based a new playable race’s history and culture largely on that new ending.

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

(edited by Obsidian.1328)

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Umm…you’re arguing that there’s no evidence left of possible Charr settlements in Ascalon, because wood and hides won’t make ruins. Dot dot dot.

Whole settlement thing was part of “no signs of Charr was found”, not argumentation about some mythical great stone-made Charr cities.

There’s grawl there still because the grawl, unlike the Charr, didn’t make it their mission in life to exterminate humans. Not to mention they didn’t/don’t have anything resembling armies, they are meant to be portrayed as a local countryside danger, not as an invasion force. Humans don’t go to war over anything remotely harmful that’s inside their borders, that’s the Charr remember?

And Charr was all about extermination of humans in first war? That would be great Ascalonian propaganda feat, for sure, “we righteously conquered those lands from Evil Beasts before they did Evil Extermination!”, but sadly, you pulled this out of thin air. Charr ruthlessness in second war was a direct result of human actions in first war, when all Ascalon Charr population vanished.

Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

If by cherry-picking you mean critical thinking, then yes I’m guilty. If you want to white-knight ANet simply because they hold the keys to the kingdom, that’s your problem not mine. I won’t agree to disagree if you won’t try and use common sense.

Yes… because common sense saying that a lush area turned wasteland is less likely to prosper or survive then a nation that received zero drastic enviromental shifts.

And we have no idea of Ascalon’s full homeland either. How many other cities do you think Ascalon could have had that were off the map?

Not many, given how they never have been mentioned? Hell, Ebonhawke sounds like it was long deserted or destroyed when the Ebon Vanguard found it. I’m sure they had some towns yes, but probably not to the scale of Ascalon city or Rin. We know that overall, Ascalon was ruined.

Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein.

what?

As were the Charr armies weakened. Again, if you get to auto-spawn Charr reserves, so do I.

The charr armies in Ascalon, yes. That viewpoint is very immature way to debate. I’m not “auto spawning”. It’s more likely for the invaders to be able to reinforce their numbers from an untouched homeland then a ruined nation that has been turned into a wasteland to reinforce their armies.

There is no bias in saying “Hey, the invaders whose home base was never even damaged, much less their home population severely culled, would be more likely to bring forth a fresh army sooner then defenders who have been greatly weakened!” It’s not bias when explicitly Ascalon’s forces were left greatly weakened by the end of prophecies.

So were the Charr.

In Ascalon, not in their homelands. Or are you trying to say the Charr literally spent their ENTIRE strength military-wise in the events of prophecies, down to the last charr?

The Ebon Vanguard itself is proof of how easy it is to “write-in” more troops. Most of its former Ascalan Vanguard troops went with Rurik west. Yet they still had enough troops for a small army to march north. Where did all these troops come from? I thought Ascalon was on the brink!! Poof…“human refugees, exiles, and escaped prisoners” that’s where. The pencil is mightier than the sword. (cuz anet censors won’t let me write “pen” and “is” in the same sentence…)

They were not a small army. You think the charr would capture and imprison a large human force (aka, a small army)? The Ebon Vanguard is a unit, not an army. Formed from the vanguard who didn’t leave (and not all of them left either.) and more likely a chunk of those refugees and prisoners became support personnel we saw in the eye of the north.

You really need to stop trying to justify GW2 writing by using some sort of RL supply and transportation analysis of a video game. My point is it could have gone either way given the right writing. Heck, they could have made the Centaurs take over Kryta had they wanted…and they could have made it seem legit too. They could have done anything they wanted to too…which is exactly what they did.

The fact is, according to the original writing, Ascalon was supposed to have won the war. Aside from the few NPC quotes which say so, the clues and allusions in the game itself are entirely self-evident. I can’t teach narrative analysis, so I guess you’re on your own on this one. That the author(s) both never definitively said so, nor ever revisited Ascalon in any “victors” scenario, is the precise reason ANet was able to do what they did with the narrative.

They didn’t capitalize on any ambivalence, there wasn’t really any to begin with. They created the ambivalence themselves, milked it into plausible deniability, and then finally wrote not only a different ending…but based a new playable race’s history and culture largely on that new ending.

And a chunk of your arguments boil down to “We didn’t see it, therefore this happened exactly as I envision it.”

Yes, Ascalon won the war, but you know what I would’ve done/said if I was an Ascalonian warmaster after the war ended?

“Adelbern, we must rebuild our armies and defenses immediately. We do not know how beaten the charr are, if we killed their top leaders or merely a war general on the field. We don’t know their motives besides wanting us dead, so another invasion is probable. You need to abandon your hatred of Kryta and others, and get help now, before the Charr return.”

Because nothing, NOTHING in prophecies says what tier of leaders we kill. We know they come from another region, so did we kill the ‘kings’ of the charr? Or simply a general in charge of this force?

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Whole settlement thing was part of “no signs of Charr was found”, not argumentation about some mythical great stone-made Charr cities.

No idea where you’re going with this, what “signs” were you looking for? They actually built stone temples during their occupation of the Northlands, you can go see them yourself: Diessa Lowlands and Flame Temple Corridor. I’m sure stone pyramids would survive a long time, why weren’t any of those around pre-Searing?

And Charr was all about extermination of humans in first war? That would be great Ascalonian propaganda feat, for sure, “we righteously conquered those lands from Evil Beasts before they did Evil Extermination!”, but sadly, you pulled this out of thin air. Charr ruthlessness in second war was a direct result of human actions in first war, when all Ascalon Charr population vanished.

Umm…yes? That’s what the Charr did, they fought with anyone they met. Met the Forgotten, went to war with ‘em. Found Dwarves, went to war. Saw Grawl, waged war.
Humans walked into their territory…you guessed it, waged war. Only this time they got beat because the humans had their gods helpin’. The reason the Charr tried to rolf-stomp all of humanity in 1070 wasn’t because the humans were living in a piece of their old territory that they named and build a civilization on. It was because they were the first ones to beat them and they wanted revenge. If all they wanted back was their land, they would have stopped after the Searing and settled it. But that’s not what happened is it? They tried to eradicate humans off the face of Tyria.

Why? Because of their pride.

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Yes… because common sense saying that a lush area turned wasteland is less likely to prosper or survive then a nation that received zero drastic enviromental shifts.

Yes…because that’s not even what I’m talking about…

Not many, given how they never have been mentioned? Hell, Ebonhawke sounds like it was long deserted or destroyed when the Ebon Vanguard found it. I’m sure they had some towns yes, but probably not to the scale of Ascalon city or Rin. We know that overall, Ascalon was ruined.

Probably a lot actually, the bulk of the kingdom was south of the Wall. Just like Kryta and Deldrimor had more stuff “than you can physically see or visit” so it was with Ascalon. The outposts and towns you see on the map are not representative of actual numbers.

what?

google it. Yay!

The charr armies in Ascalon, yes. That viewpoint is very immature way to debate. I’m not “auto spawning”. It’s more likely for the invaders to be able to reinforce their numbers from an untouched homeland then a ruined nation that has been turned into a wasteland to reinforce their armies.

There is no bias in saying “Hey, the invaders whose home base was never even damaged, much less their home population severely culled, would be more likely to bring forth a fresh army sooner then defenders who have been greatly weakened!” It’s not bias when explicitly Ascalon’s forces were left greatly weakened by the end of prophecies.

In Ascalon, not in their homelands. Or are you trying to say the Charr literally spent their ENTIRE strength military-wise in the events of prophecies, down to the last charr?

YES! Or at least most of them. How else could you simultaneously attack 3 large kingdoms at the same time when you couldn’t even beat 1 years ago? They had been gearing up for this for decades, maybe centuries. They wanted all humans dead, and they were going to die trying. That’s their goal in life, their schtick, their raison d’etre.

At least that’s how they were written back then, now they are the race players choose if they like steampunk or cats.

And a chunk of your arguments boil down to “We didn’t see it, therefore this happened exactly as I envision it.”

Yes, Ascalon won the war, but you know what I would’ve done/said if I was an Ascalonian warmaster after the war ended?

“Adelbern, we must rebuild our armies and defenses immediately. We do not know how beaten the charr are, if we killed their top leaders or merely a war general on the field. We don’t know their motives besides wanting us dead, so another invasion is probable. You need to abandon your hatred of Kryta and others, and get help now, before the Charr return.”

Because nothing, NOTHING in prophecies says what tier of leaders we kill. We know they come from another region, so did we kill the ‘kings’ of the charr? Or simply a general in charge of this force?

Wait…so now you’re agreeing they won the war?

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

No idea where you’re going with this, what “signs” were you looking for? They actually built stone temples during their occupation of the Northlands, you can go see them yourself: Diessa Lowlands and Flame Temple Corridor. I’m sure stone pyramids would survive a long time, why weren’t any of those around pre-Searing?

Emm… first war? Flame temples? What?

Umm…yes? That’s what the Charr did, they fought with anyone they met. Met the Forgotten, went to war with ‘em. Found Dwarves, went to war. Saw Grawl, waged war.
Humans walked into their territory…you guessed it, waged war. Only this time they got beat because the humans had their gods helpin’. The reason the Charr tried to rolf-stomp all of humanity in 1070 wasn’t because the humans were living in a piece of their old territory that they named and build a civilization on. It was because they were the first ones to beat them and they wanted revenge. If all they wanted back was their land, they would have stopped after the Searing and settled it. But that’s not what happened is it? They tried to eradicate humans off the face of Tyria.

Why? Because of their pride.

Surely you gonna give source for that.

Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

In Ascalon, not in their homelands. Or are you trying to say the Charr literally spent their ENTIRE strength military-wise in the events of prophecies, down to the last charr?

YES! Or at least most of them. How else could you simultaneously attack 3 large kingdoms at the same time when you couldn’t even beat 1 years ago? They had been gearing up for this for decades, maybe centuries. They wanted all humans dead, and they were going to die trying. That’s their goal in life, their schtick, their raison d’etre.

At least that’s how they were written back then, now they are the race players choose if they like steampunk or cats.

Really? Because as I recall, it was the WALL that gave the Charr trouble, not the actual Ascalonian army. The searing broke the wall. And frankly, their reasoning was never, EVER given in Prophecies. We had no motivation, no driving force, we knew nothing about the charr other then “They attacked.”

Wait…so now you’re agreeing they won the war?

I’m saying I’ve seen actual evidence that Ascalon at least ‘won’ or pushed back the charr for a brief while, so sure. I’ll accept it as that. The charr were pushed back, then returned south with a second wave.

Again, in Prophecies, we literally knew nothing about the Charr. We could’ve killed the king of all charr in ascalon. Or we could’ve killed a Rurik-style general who took an army south while the rest stayed home.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

Really? Because as I recall, it was the WALL that gave the Charr trouble, not the actual Ascalonian army. The searing broke the wall. And frankly, their reasoning was never, EVER given in Prophecies. We had no motivation, no driving force, we knew nothing about the charr other then “They attacked.”

The Ascalon army gave them trouble right up until the Titans assumed leadership of Charr and united them, for the simple fact that the Northlands had been successfully defended from the Charr for a thousand years. The gods themselves are the initial reason the humans were able to defeat the Charr horde in Ascalon, they helped them settle it. After that, the Charr were divided and fought among themselves. It wasn’t until the clans united, under the Titan’s leadership centuries later, that they were able to push back the Ascalon army to the wall.

That much is pretty certain.

The only reasons we’re given as to why the Charr wanted to decimate humanity, before Nightfall, EotN, and GW2 development, is three-fold:

  • Domination. The Charr had always been known to fight anything that got in their way, including Grawl, Dwarves, Forgotten, and Humans. They lived to fight.
  • Revenge. The Charr never forgot getting beat by humans a thousand years ago, particularly that hey had gods helping them. That was the initial reason they turned to the Titans as their “gods” because they thought they needed them to win. Abaddon being behind it was written in a year later during Nightfall development, Prophecies actually wasn’t written with him in mind at all.
  • Prophecy. The Flameseeker Prophecies are the driving force behind the narrative. The Charr, and particularly the Searing and Cataclysm, are integral to that prophecy. They are the catalyst to the whole storyline, without which none of it would have happened. You could logically argue that Glint knew Orr was doomed, but did nothing about it because she too is woven into the prophecy and knew that she couldn’t interfere with it lest she risk all of Tyria under the heel of the Titans.

After/during Nightfall, the narrative shifts and we get the beginnings of what we have today.

I’m saying I’ve seen actual evidence that Ascalon at least ‘won’ or pushed back the charr for a brief while, so sure. I’ll accept it as that. The charr were pushed back, then returned south with a second wave.

We could’ve killed the king of all charr in ascalon. Or we could’ve killed a Rurik-style general who took an army south while the rest stayed home.

I can agree to that. :-)

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

(edited by Obsidian.1328)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I don’t know if it is a hoax per se. But something is definitely wrong if I can’t find him in official credits. One source doesn’t make any sense considering the Internet existed then.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

I don’t know if it is a hoax per se. But something is definitely wrong if I can’t find him in official credits. One source doesn’t make any sense considering the Internet existed then.

/shrug

I don’t know what to tell you. If you’re looking at the GW wiki credits page, well it’s probably as simple as being current. To take a queue from the Constitution, the wiki is a living, breathing document. It’s not hard to believe the credits include only those who were around during GW’s last endeavor: EotN.

Here’s some other random, non-ANet, sources I found on the interwebz from 5 minutes of searching:

That last one isn’t so much a source as a nod to him in the unofficial forums. No idea why his name is kinda clouded in mist, seems odd to me too.

Also, thanks a bunch for reviving this thread dude…it took Kalavier and I weeks to come to an unsteady truce. :-/

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I don’t know if it is a hoax per se. But something is definitely wrong if I can’t find him in official credits. One source doesn’t make any sense considering the Internet existed then.

/shrug

I don’t know what to tell you. If you’re looking at the GW wiki credits page, well it’s probably as simple as being current. To take a queue from the Constitution, the wiki is a living, breathing document. It’s not hard to believe the credits include only those who were around during GW’s last endeavor: EotN.

Here’s some other random, non-ANet, sources I found on the interwebz from 5 minutes of searching:

That last one isn’t so much a source as a nod to him in the unofficial forums. No idea why his name is kinda clouded in mist, seems odd to me too.

Also, thanks a bunch for reviving this thread dude…it took Kalavier and I weeks to come to an unsteady truce. :-/

No source has declared him sole author. I don’t know why you keep assuming the entirety of gw1 creative direction was up to him.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

I don’t know if it is a hoax per se. But something is definitely wrong if I can’t find him in official credits. One source doesn’t make any sense considering the Internet existed then.

/shrug

I don’t know what to tell you. If you’re looking at the GW wiki credits page, well it’s probably as simple as being current. To take a queue from the Constitution, the wiki is a living, breathing document. It’s not hard to believe the credits include only those who were around during GW’s last endeavor: EotN.

Here’s some other random, non-ANet, sources I found on the interwebz from 5 minutes of searching:

That last one isn’t so much a source as a nod to him in the unofficial forums. No idea why his name is kinda clouded in mist, seems odd to me too.

Also, thanks a bunch for reviving this thread dude…it took Kalavier and I weeks to come to an unsteady truce. :-/

No source has declared him sole author. I don’t know why you keep assuming the entirety of gw1 creative direction was up to him.

I said he birthed Tyria into existence through his narration, not that the entirety of creative direction was on his shoulders. Writing was just one aspect of it, albeit a rather large one.

He did develop the main story of Prophecies on his own. For Factions he had some help by then, but the lion’s share was still his. I’m sure his first draft went through editing just like any story would, and I’m sure there were others there that helped him sharpen the edges fill in the blanks. Whether or not you choose to believe me on that is up to you I guess, I’ve certainly no reason to lie about it. Nor does Jess.

Guild Wars wasn’t even conceptualized to have a big PvE aspect to it at inception, the map zones were supposed to all be controlled by guilds through GvG…but that’s another story. When their development focus shifted, they brought him in to give the game a narrative identity. He started writing it when they only had a score of people on the payroll, by the time it shipped there were 3,4, or 5 times that number. But he still created the world and story of Tyria pretty much by himself.

Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care