Ascalonian Royal Line is broken... or is it?

Ascalonian Royal Line is broken... or is it?

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

Everyone who played GW: Prophecies knows of how Prince Rurik was betrothed to Lady Althea before the searing and we as players even got the honored task to do Rurik’s job at finding her a suitable present (make that 3 presents, you lazy prince!)

Then the poop really hit the fan with the searing and we regroup with Rurik two years later. Almost immediately Althea goes to the BBQ of her life and Rurik in put on ice, but what about those two unseen years between pre-Ascalon and post-Ascalon? I think it’s possible that after fighting charr day in and day out for months, when Rurik took a small break he could be given some romantic treatment by his lady and you know… 9 months later…

The royal baby could have been taken to a safe place far away even before we arrive to post-searing Ascalon since his parents were both fighters and could hardly take proper care of a baby while slaughering hordes of charr.

We could be having a scenario similar to what happened with Queen Salma 250 years ago

Your thoughts?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

We’re told Althea disappeared in the Searing. Whenever her sacrifice was, it wasn’t recent. Why her ashes were still there… well, chalk that up to game design logic.

Edit: I’d swear I remember seeing that, but digging just now I can’t find it. For the time being, you should probably consider my stance unsubstantiated. I’ll update if something does turn up.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Pyriel.4370

Pyriel.4370

Altheas Ashes are an ascended item in GW2 if that helps. She was killed by the Charr as a sacrifice to their ‘fire god’. Hence altheas ashes. You meet her ghost in the quest ‘A Dukes Daughter’.

She was captured after the Searing and you would likely think she would mention something before disappearing as a ghost if she did have a child.

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Posted by: narwhalsbend.7059

narwhalsbend.7059

What of Wade Samuelsson? Maybe Barradin or Adelbern had more than one child each?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Possible, maybe, at least from Barradin, and he could just as easily be descended from one of Barradin or Adelbern’s ancestors. You’ve got to figure that an 1100 year old royal line has had many second and third children.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

I KNOW Althea gets killed at some point before we resume the game post-searing, but when we rescue that guy during one of the missions Rurik exclaims “You’ve been here since the searing!? That’s over two years!”

She might have gotten just “lucky” enough to bear a child before being hASHed out :P

I don’t know about Duke Barradin, but I highly doubt that Adelbern had other kids, as if I recall during the titan missions (when clearing the ones in Ascalon) he talks about Rurik and speaks of him as his only child.

(edited by prism.4982)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Rurik’s stated to have no heir; it’s stated that Adelbern’s line died with Rurik several times over throughout Ghosts of Ascalon and various Ascalon ghost-related dialogues.

I do believe that it was said that Barradin’s only child was Althea, but also that Barradin had a brother – I’d imagine Wade comes from said brother, unless I’m mistaken (it’s been a while so entirely possible). Though it’s further possible that Wade comes from a line further back than Barradin.

@prism: There’s a bit discrepency about whether or not Rurik was Adelbern’s only child – the Prophecies manual states that Rurik is the eldest son, implying a younger sibling (most likely a younger brother), but at the same time Rurik is repeatedly said throughout GW2 to be the last heir of Adelbern. Most likely scenario: Rurik had a younger sibling who died before he did.

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Posted by: BuddhaKeks.4857

BuddhaKeks.4857

We never see Rurik’s mother, she and the second born could have died during childbirth. That could also explain why Adelbern acts the way he does. Just a theory of course.

You don’t win friends with salad! Sorry I just got caught up in the rhythm.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

What is repeated in the books is (I believe) according to what the characters themselves assume is true, so while the chance of it may be very slim, I wouldn’t use such lines as a final answer.

Rurik had a brother?? That’s news to me tbh but yeah, he could’ve died during or before the searing itself.

Well since the Barradin family was the legitimate royal line while Adelbern was kind of ‘voted-in’ to be king instead, if any of the Barradin family had kids who somehow made it to puberty and had kids then at least some royal line would remain unbroken.

Totally not what I was hoping for since I’d prefer some Rurik descendant to pop up, but hey, it’s still good Ascalonian blood after all.

Let’s rebuild the kingdom…. in Ebonhawke!

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Every royal line have lots of kittens. There is probably a lot of descendants among Kryta refugees, we just don’t know about them.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Every royal line have lots of kittens. There is probably a lot of descendants among Kryta refugees, we just don’t know about them.

Maybe, but maybe not. Between the Searing and those unable or too stubborn to leave afterwards , only a very small proportion of Ascalonians survived to make it to Kryta. Ebonhawke would be a more likely bet for sudden revelations of royal ancestry.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

So if Commander Samuelsson is confirmed to be a descendant of the Ascalonian Kings… why the heck is he not named a king or at least a prince, duke, or whatever?? Is it too much to ask to have another human monarch? He’s the Ascalonian heir; he’s not gonna go charging into DR assaulting the queen for the Krytan throne…

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

So if Commander Samuelsson is confirmed to be a descendant of the Ascalonian Kings… why the heck is he not named a king or at least a prince, duke, or whatever?? Is it too much to ask to have another human monarch? He’s the Ascalonian heir; he’s not gonna go charging into DR assaulting the queen for the Krytan throne…

Because there is no Kingdom of Ascalon anymore?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

So if Commander Samuelsson is confirmed to be a descendant of the Ascalonian Kings… why the heck is he not named a king or at least a prince, duke, or whatever?? Is it too much to ask to have another human monarch? He’s the Ascalonian heir; he’s not gonna go charging into DR assaulting the queen for the Krytan throne…

Because there is no Kingdom of Ascalon anymore?

This, although he does claim the title Duke of Ebonhawke. He probably could get away with crowning himself if he felt like it (and he’s not the sort who would), but it’d be an empty vanity at this point. Maybe in a few generations, once the settlements beyond the walls grow larger and regain some measure of their lost power and wealth.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

So if Commander Samuelsson is confirmed to be a descendant of the Ascalonian Kings… why the heck is he not named a king or at least a prince, duke, or whatever?? Is it too much to ask to have another human monarch? He’s the Ascalonian heir; he’s not gonna go charging into DR assaulting the queen for the Krytan throne…

Because there is no Kingdom of Ascalon anymore?

This, although he does claim the title Duke of Ebonhawke. He probably could get away with crowning himself if he felt like it (and he’s not the sort who would), but it’d be an empty vanity at this point. Maybe in a few generations, once the settlements beyond the walls grow larger and regain some measure of their lost power and wealth.

The kingdom is its people, not housing estate and walls. The people of Ebonhawke are definitely a proud bunch. They can easily ask Samuelsson to be their king the same way people in GW1 asked Adelbern back in the day.

The treaty would still be in force of course.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Is it? Or is it the land, or the crown’s influence, or the accumulated generations of prestige? There are different ways of looking at a kingdom, probably even in an in-universe perspective, and most of those ways wouldn’t hold that Ebonhawke is the same as the Kingdom of Ascalon.

But leaving aside justification and the fact that Samuelsson doesn’t want to be a king, there are a few political realities that would make claiming the title a bad idea. The charr could very easily take it as a statement of intent, that the humans won’t be content with just Ebonhawke and the lands surrounding it, especially at this fragile point in the treaty. Kryta’s aid is being rendered on the basis of a power looking out for a dependency; an attempt to put Ebonhawke on equal footing could upset that arrangement, which may or may not be harmful if the treaty goes through (same treaty the coronation is possibly risking). Absolute worse case scenario, especially if the inhabitants of Rurikton and Ascalon Settlement choose to return to their reborn ancestral land, is Kryta seeing New Ascalon as a rival whose existence weakens it. I don’t want to make it sound like it’d be the end of everything, but what it would do is take a tangled web of delicate relations and greatly increase the strain on them for no tangible benefit.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Shanna.4762

Shanna.4762

The Ascalonian Royal Line is not broken, the royal families of both Kryta & Ascalon are directly related.

So if Commander Samuelsson is confirmed to be a descendant of the Ascalonian Kings… why the heck is he not named a king or at least a prince, duke, or whatever?? Is it too much to ask to have another human monarch? He’s the Ascalonian heir; he’s not gonna go charging into DR assaulting the queen for the Krytan throne…

Because there is no Kingdom of Ascalon anymore?

This, although he does claim the title Duke of Ebonhawke. He probably could get away with crowning himself if he felt like it (and he’s not the sort who would), but it’d be an empty vanity at this point. Maybe in a few generations, once the settlements beyond the walls grow larger and regain some measure of their lost power and wealth.

Part of the treaty with the Charr was that humans and Charr would share the land of Ascalon. And as such, Queen Jennah was named Queen-Regnant of Human Ascalon (essentially, a restoration of the human Kingdom of Ascalon is taking place as we speak). Queen Jennah’s regency is recorded in the official GW2 Wiki.

Queen Jennah is probably much closer related to the most recent King’s & Queen’s of Ascalon than the Duke of Ebonhawk. People who retain a Ducal status that isn’t coupled with a Princely status means they are descended from a royal line preceding the last known line. This would make Queen Jennah the most rightful, legitimate, (known) heir to the throne of Ascalon. That being said, I don’t really know of anything stating that she wishes to remain Queen of Ascalon indefinitely but it is worth noting that Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr were all one Empire before.

(edited by Shanna.4762)

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Posted by: Mikhail.4961

Mikhail.4961

Queen Jennah is probably much closer related to the most recent King’s & Queen’s of Ascalon than the Duke of Ebonhawk.

Assuming Barradin/his brother was Samuelsson’s ancestor and using the Thackerey’s family tree as mold 8though the gravestone states she’s his great grandmother, it seems mathematically impossible for it to only be four generations between them)…

*GW1*__________________*GW2*
Barradin → 4-6 generations → Wade Samuelsson.
Q. Salma → 4-6 generations → Queen Jennah

At some point, either through Salma’s husband or any of her successors, the royal line of Ascalon would have had to intermarry into the Krytan Royal Family. We know Adelbern’s line is dead, so that leaves Barradin’s: he himself did not marry, and his brother either died childless (which makes Samuelsson’s ancestor perhaps a cousin to the Duke) or his son was deemed inappropriate for kinghood, and Alathea was killed with no heirs: no known siblings exist.

Of course, Kryta was established by Mazduk the Accursed, whose descendants can claim some right to Ascalon through the blood of Doric, but that is a VERY roundabout way to do it: a way longer still than Wade Samuelsson’s claim.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

On the closeness of the three kingdoms’ royalty:

GuildMag (Thalador): That makes sense. Although Queen Jennah has a rightful claim to the throne through the bloodline of King Doric. So what about that?

ArenaNet (Ree) : I think that when the prince who left Orr to establish Kryta, when he went to do that, by doing that he – I want to say he completely left the claim to the Orrian throne, and he certainly has a bloodline to it. But I think that the distance between the two thrones is going to be too disparate for her to just step up and say ‘I own that.’

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : And I think Kryta has their hands full.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : Well that’s certainly true. She could say it but couldn’t necessarily back it.

ArenaNet (Jeff) : Basically, they could claim Orr if they wanted but it’s not going to happen. They have just been emerging from fighting over Ebonhawke forever. And basically this is a long, long-distant claim operation that it’ll just create havoc. Do they really want another venture like that?

ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : And I think the distance is a key factor in that. I think it’s far more immediate for the government of Kryta to sort things out with the charr – with the Black Citadel. With Ebonhawke, with the Claw of the Khan-Ur, there’s peace treaties, there’s negotiations in motion. I think this is the first and most important and most achievable step to peace they could take, that Orr is secondary on their doorstep.

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : And even though you have asura gates as being an instantaneous means to go from Divinity’s Reach to Ebonhawke very easily, they can basically set up something to get to Orr without going to Lion’s Arch. It’s still that, there’s the immediacy of problems right outside your gate versus of on the other side of the continent.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : And we’ve seen in the novel and the game that the peace process between the charr and the humans is making progress. I think their first priority is to finish that as best they can before getting into Orr.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : And there are also some implications in Guild Wars one when you get into the stuff with Vizier Khilbron and so forth, there are survivors of Orr. There are people who got away when the continent sunk. You’d need to look into those to see if any of those were move closely related to the throne because they might have a better claim. Not necessarily that they can pull it off-

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : A secret heir lost off-end.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : Yeah a secret heir, a lord of Orr, because like I said, the queen’s descendency dates back to the first king of Kryta. But that is not necessarily as close to the throne as someone who’s great-grandfather was king.

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : And Salma was a revealed ruler as well. They had lost the entire Krytan house. And then they found her, and therefore that’s a step as well.

http://guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

Also to note: Jennah is not only Queen of Kryta, but Regent of Ascalon (source: Edge of Destiny, various letters to Logan she signed as Queen of Kryta, Regent of Ascalon).

Dear ANet writers,
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Posted by: Pyriel.4370

Pyriel.4370

Wade Samuelsson himself is not directly in line from Barradin or Adelbern. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyrian_royalty_family_tree)

If you look at real life cases such as Emperor Charlemagne and how his descendants are basically the European population (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/07/charlemagnes-dna-and-our-universal-royalty/)

So chances are there were other kings, queens, princes and princesses.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Pyrial, that family tree is fan-made and created based on player knowledge. We don’t know where Wade ties into the family tree, in all honesty, so it’s possible that he comes from Barradin (though not Adelbern unless it was kept secret for some unknown-to-us-reason).

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Posted by: Valmir.4590

Valmir.4590

This, although he does claim the title Duke of Ebonhawke. He probably could get away with crowning himself if he felt like it (and he’s not the sort who would), but it’d be an empty vanity at this point. Maybe in a few generations, once the settlements beyond the walls grow larger and regain some measure of their lost power and wealth.

It would also have alienated the Krytians prior to the treaty with the Charrs. Crowing himself King -or if one of his ancestors did so- would have probably led to some unhappiness among the royal line of Krytia, because some of their subjects are Ascolonians (in the Settlement) or of Ascalonian descent and could have divided loyalties with a King of Ascalon rising in Ebonhawke.

We already know that there was a low point in the relations between the Fortress and the reach (when the Asura Gate connecting both was closed down and let to rot until Jenna wished to reopen it in Destiny’s Edge book), so it is probable that the strain on the Kingdom of Krytia combining with some political faux pas from Ebonhawk led to those difficult times for the besieged city.

Furthermore, and while it is not supported in lore, I believe that the help of Krytia came at the cost of fealty to Krytia by the Ebonhawkers. It is quite probable that a King of Krytia ensured the help of his kingdom trough the recognition that the inhabitants of the Fortress were subjects of the Krytians throne (a fact which has possibly happened when the aforementioned Asura Gate was commissioned for the first time). I believe it is still the case, since it is a Krytian diplomat who negotiate with the Charrs, and Krytian troops who are coming reinforcing Ebonhawke and helping them beyond the walls.

Obviously, this fealty wouldn’t have been welcomed by the inhabitants of Ebonhawk and it is possible that it was their reaction which led to the Asura Gate being shut down at one point or the other. They If they are subjects of Krytia, it was surely for a very long time barely more than a nominative fact, and it is possible that the tensions rise when the Krytian throne take a more direct approach to its control over the last human city of Ascalon. However, if the cease-fire lead to a true peace, the hold of Krytia over Ebonhawk and the Ascalonian would probably be strengthened quite a lot, since it would be thanks to the Queen that the war will have ended.

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Posted by: Mikhail.4961

Mikhail.4961

Also to note: Jennah is not only Queen of Kryta, but Regent of Ascalon (source: Edge of Destiny, various letters to Logan she signed as Queen of Kryta, Regent of Ascalon).

She does? I completely missed that (I blame selective reading <.<). But then, is she considered the legitimate ruler by the people of Ebonhawke (because those guys seem happy about the peace but not too happy about Jennah’s soldiers and stuff) or is what the Queen of England is to Canada?

Any class is easy to play, but not as easy to master. So sod off, warrior-haters.

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Posted by: Valmir.4590

Valmir.4590

I think she has a stronger rule over Ebonhawk than the Queen of England toward Canada. After all, the humans opposing the peace treaty call themselves the Separatists, which imply that they want to separate themselves from something (a nation or a kingdom, the second being probably the case in GW2).

I think that the inhabitants from Ebonhawke who aren’t Separatists are either staunch supporters of the Queen (seeing themselves as ascalonians subjects of Jennah) or for the most part moderate “citizens”, not feeling oppressed by the Queen rulership over them but not feeling that they owe her too much. Mostly,n it is probably isolation more than anything else which explains why the Ebonhawkers aren’t too happy with the Fallen Angels (whose name isn’t really that great to cheer up the local population… even if the inhabitants of the Fortress are probably quite grim, when I think about it) because they believe it belittle their worth.

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Also to note: Jennah is not only Queen of Kryta, but Regent of Ascalon (source: Edge of Destiny, various letters to Logan she signed as Queen of Kryta, Regent of Ascalon).

She does? I completely missed that (I blame selective reading <.<). But then, is she considered the legitimate ruler by the people of Ebonhawke (because those guys seem happy about the peace but not too happy about Jennah’s soldiers and stuff) or is what the Queen of England is to Canada?

Considering she has troops in Ebonhawke and she sends resources to Ebonhawke it is not quite like the relationship between the Queen of England and Canada. Consider also that the foreign affairs between Ebonhawke and the Charr are directly decided upon by Kryta (i.e. the peace treaty between Jenna and the Charr has a big effect on the relationship between Ebonhawke and the Charr).

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

Adelberm was not actually in line for the throne so his royal line in a way starts with him.

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Adelbern was still descended from King Doric, however. It’s just that he wasn’t next in line. I’m sure that if Barradin – and probably quite a few others – died he would have been crowned regardless.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

My understanding is that Kryta is supporting Ebonhawke for the simple fact of being a human city in need of aid. Remember that humanity is in decline and common sense dictates you can’t go into petty squabbles over who-rules-who when you have other races that could wipe out yours living nearby.

However, just like the queen has no authority over Lion’s Arch’s residents, she has no say over what goes on in Ebonhawke or any Ascalonian lands.

So assuming that either Samuelsson or some other descendant pops out of the woodwork, we still have a royal line running in Ascalon.

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Posted by: Bathos.6341

Bathos.6341

Don’t forget that most royal households had so called “cadet” branches, even if the main royal line died out there are likely some survivors with ascalonian royal blood left through marrages between younger sons and daughters of the royal house to other aristocratic families of Ascalon.. they question is how would anyone figure out which one is next in line 250 years later? Those that survived probably didn’t have time to bring a full geneology with them when fleeing ascalon.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

Don’t forget that most royal households had so called “cadet” branches, even if the main royal line died out there are likely some survivors with ascalonian royal blood left through marrages between younger sons and daughters of the royal house to other aristocratic families of Ascalon.. they question is how would anyone figure out which one is next in line 250 years later? Those that survived probably didn’t have time to bring a full geneology with them when fleeing ascalon.

There is an ancient way of deciding such dilemmas:

http://bit.ly/1DspfeO

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

My understanding is that Kryta is supporting Ebonhawke for the simple fact of being a human city in need of aid. Remember that humanity is in decline and common sense dictates you can’t go into petty squabbles over who-rules-who when you have other races that could wipe out yours living nearby.

However, just like the queen has no authority over Lion’s Arch’s residents, she has no say over what goes on in Ebonhawke or any Ascalonian lands.

So assuming that either Samuelsson or some other descendant pops out of the woodwork, we still have a royal line running in Ascalon.

As pointed out a couple of times above, Jennah is actually regent of Ascalon.

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Posted by: prism.4982

prism.4982

But doesn’t that mean she’s just standing in temporarily? Like a caretaker government since things were so screwed up for them up until the treaty?

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Posted by: Obsidian.1328

Obsidian.1328

The only prerequisite to kingship in Ascalon back then was being a descendant of Doric, it didn’t matter if you were a close relative of the current king or not. And since Doric died a millennia before Adelbern, there were probably hundreds, if not thousands, of others who could fill that roll.

In other words, it doesn’t matter is Adelbern’s specific line is dead.

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