Guild Wars 2

CHIPS.6018:

There are hints that Cantha will be the enemy in GW2. They have a huge population and have a city the size of 1/4 of the continent. They expelled all non-humans and oppositions from Cantha. The whole continent is now united and ruled under the iron fist of the " tyrannical and fierce" Emperor Usoku.

While the humans in Tyria has been weakened into a minor state, the humans in Cantha has never been more united.

Here is my prediction:

With Zhaitan gone, the sea ways are opened again. Cantha will first send spies and assassins to study and weaken Tyria. Then Cantha will send a huge invasion fleet to attack Tyria. They would encourage humans in Tyria to join them, to regain the former glory of the human kingdoms by defeating all other races, enslaving Charrs and Asuras alike. The Tyrians would naturally refuse, and war begins.

There will be huge sea (Turtle Ship+Atakebune vs Man of War) and land battles in Tyria for over a year. Eventually the Tyrians and their non-human allies would stop the invasion, and take the fight into Cantha to free the suppressed. Fighting in Kaineng City would involve a lot of urban fighting.

Question is, why? Cantha kicked out not just nonhumans, but non-Canthans too. Why go through this huge war against FIVE united races plus 3 Orders? One of which is a spy and assassination organization. Cantha would be incredibly stupid to go to war. And usually isolationist nations don’t want a part of world affairs anyways.

Gregorius.1024:

Question is, why? Cantha kicked out not just nonhumans, but non-Canthans too. Why go through this huge war against FIVE united races plus 3 Orders? One of which is a spy and assassination organization. Cantha would be incredibly stupid to go to war. And usually isolationist nations don’t want a part of world affairs anyways.

For a potential answer to that, see my post.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Cantha-in-future-expansions/first#post1375771

FlamingFoxx.1305:

That isn’t telepathy. Telepathy is the transmission without use of any kind of channel. Magic is a channel. She is using Mesmer magic to speak inside his head/transmit thought or whatever it is precisely that she is doing. But since she is using magic to do so rather than having the ability to simply do it unassisted. It is not telepathy.

You’re not quite right there.

te·lep·a·thy
[tuh-lep-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun
communication between minds by some means other than sensory perception.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/telepathy?s=t

Magical mind reading would count as telepathy, since its not sensory perception.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

That isn’t telepathy. Telepathy is the transmission without use of any kind of channel. Magic is a channel. She is using Mesmer magic to speak inside his head/transmit thought or whatever it is precisely that she is doing. But since she is using magic to do so rather than having the ability to simply do it unassisted. It is not telepathy.

You’re not quite right there.

te·lep·a·thy
[tuh-lep-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun
communication between minds by some means other than sensory perception.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/telepathy?s=t

Magical mind reading would count as telepathy, since its not sensory perception.

And then look below that at the scientific definition: “the communication between people of thoughts, feelings, desires, etc, involving mechanisms that cannot be understood in terms of known scientific laws”

Magic in the GW2 universe is scientific. The Asura know this. Mesmeric magic can be understood. Therefore it is not telepathy..

So it would be telepathy if they didn’t understand how it worked? The definition says ‘cannot be understood’ because we, as real humans, don’t have any scientific explanation of telepathy.

If we suddenly discovered how to read minds, people wouldn’t go, “Oh, that’s not telepathy, because we understand how it works.” It’s mind-reading. It’s mind-to-mind communication. It’s telepathy.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

And then look below that at the scientific definition: “the communication between people of thoughts, feelings, desires, etc, involving mechanisms that cannot be understood in terms of known scientific laws”

Magic in the GW2 universe is scientific. The Asura know this. Mesmeric magic can be understood. Therefore it is not telepathy..

Ehhhhh, not really. Magic, by definition, is the use of power which isn’t, or isn’t explainable by, science (more or less). The asura gives magic a sci-fi appearance and work to describe it with science, but magic itself isn’t so.

But regardless of this, telepathy is, as Son of Elias said, direct mind-to-mind communication, be it one or two way. Hell, telepathy is directly an attribute of psionics which when you boil down to things, is just the scientific explanation (or attempt of explaining) the same exact thing that magic is said to do. Human society over the course of thousands of years went from calling things “shooting fireballs from your hand with MAGIC and SORCERY! -handweaves-” to “pyrokenesis is caused by superior mental abilities” – with the advancement of science, we take ancient aspects of our mythology and made it scientific. Telepathy is just the more “advanced” way to call mind-reading. And mind-reading is magic -handweaves- by all explanations and definitions.

I’m definitely hoping for Cantha to be the first expansion, or in a gigantic update relatively soon…It was my favorite part of GW1…However, I came across this thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/first

Thoughts on this rumor? I would be pretty p’d off if it’s true, Cantha was such a major part of guild wars and the place I really want to see in GW2 the most, out of any of the others by a long shot, and it seems that this is also the case amongst many other people in the game.

I just hope it hasnt been destroyed by elder dragons yet. Also why would ANET go all politically correct on us and get rid of cantha because they think its racist to asians?First of all its fantasy and is set on a different planet where Cantha is not in asia.And Canthans are not asians.They are Canthans. Second it actually celebrates asian culter with the asian theme.

And if you want to say Cantha is racist look the freaking pandas in wow!Now thats racist!!

All I know is I’ve heard that Factions wasn’t well received by Asians due to Kaineng City (being annoyed that one poor aspect of one culture was made so predominant and that this was a poor representation of Asian cultures, iirc), and similarly neither was the Canthan district of Divinity’s Reach (due to it being a mixture of asian culture influences) which was thus made into the Great Collapse (this same argument was used against Pandaria, I hear).

Its overly silly to me, but basically pride in being represented properly by Westerners more or less makes the audience at large upset if there’s a mixture or prevalence of an aspect they don’t like.

As such, I can see it happening to try to keep the asian audience, however, I see it overall silly. While I don’t think Cantha will be visited anytime soon, it would be foolhardy to remove it completely.

They could always represent Cantha more positively this time around, It has been over 100-150 years since Cantha actually became isolationist in the timeline…They are very touchy over there about being represented negatively by westerner’s and while I do agree it’s silly, it’s not necessary for that to be the case with GW2. I can see any number of possible (positive) portrayals of Cantha in this era with the end of the isolationist era. There would almost definitely be a new Emperor (Or Empress) on the throne of Cantha by now which always brings about new possibilities

I created my toon in GW2 to be the namesake of my toon in GW1, as a descendent and it would be pretty depressing if we don’t get to go back to Cantha anytime in the relatively near-ish future.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All I know is I’ve heard that Factions wasn’t well received by Asians due to Kaineng City (being annoyed that one poor aspect of one culture was made so predominant and that this was a poor representation of Asian cultures, iirc), and similarly neither was the Canthan district of Divinity’s Reach (due to it being a mixture of asian culture influences) which was thus made into the Great Collapse (this same argument was used against Pandaria, I hear).

Its overly silly to me, but basically pride in being represented properly by Westerners more or less makes the audience at large upset if there’s a mixture or prevalence of an aspect they don’t like.

As such, I can see it happening to try to keep the asian audience, however, I see it overall silly. While I don’t think Cantha will be visited anytime soon, it would be foolhardy to remove it completely.

This. I know there is a lot of high tension and deep grudges between Asian countries, but ANet’s vision was always for a mixture of cultures. Prophecies was a mixture of western cultures (although, evil Middle Eastern guy lol), Nightfall was a mixture of African and Middle Eastern cultures, and Factions was a mixture of Asian cultures. I think ANet needs to try to stick to that vision. Maybe clean up Kaineng City a little (although I find it completely justified, its a bloated ugly city, they all look the same)

@Zaxares, ok I can see this happening. I can’t see Cantha attacking Tyria for world domination because that is just pure stupidity. But under the whims of a dragon, I can see. Perhaps Kuunaveng is a dragon champion much like Glint, but becomes corrupted again and in turn corrupts the Emperor.

Shanna.4762:

They could always represent Cantha more positively this time around, It has been over 100-150 years since Cantha actually became isolationist in the timeline…They are very touchy over there about being represented negatively by westerner’s and while I do agree it’s silly, it’s not necessary for that to be the case with GW2. I can see any number of possible (positive) portrayals of Cantha in this era with the end of the isolationist era. There would almost definitely be a new Emperor (Or Empress) on the throne of Cantha by now which always brings about new possibilities

No I think they should not do that. Anet should do with the continent what they want to do with and not what people with false national pride want it to be. If they think a fantasy culture is a wrong representation of their actual culture (which makes of course no sense at all) then it is their problem. I want to see Anet’s version of Cantha, not “we changed it according to the wishes of some people in the asian community” Cantha.

Even taking out the Canthan district in DR is going to far, imo. I’m all for respecting different cultures and not offending anyone, but this is ridiculous and borderline oppression of the artistic freedom of Anet by a vocal minority.

I would absolutely love to see Cantha in an expansion (hopefully the first or second), because it really mixed things up in terms of what people saw in MMO’s. I mean, in that one empire alone, there’s history and diversity. Indo-Greek Luxons using gigantic crab-mechas to travel across seas of frozen jade, Gothic Samurai living in a forest of stone and cathedrals, even the Imperials (for lack of a better term describing those humans native to Kaineng and Shing Jea) have a unique and distinct cultural, political, and artistic flair to it.

Moving to theorycrafting, there’s actually even a plausible reason why we might go to Cantha. After all, since Canthan ships have been wrecking along the shores of Tyria ever since Zhaitan came up from the seas, we know that they’re still a naval power. Considering that, for all we know, they’ve been entirely untouched by the Elder Dragons for centuries, it’s entirely possible that the Canthans have the most advanced and largest navy on Tyria.

To go with that, consider that the Canthans had a ‘technological headstart’ on the peoples of Tyria, having been the first to create cannons and harness gunpowder for war, as well as utilizing it in a wide-scale cultural usage. It wouldn’t be too far of a stretch to consider, since they’ve only been completely isolated for about 100 years (again, since the time that Zhaitan rose and blocked all trade), that the Canthans have used that stability and pre-existing knowledge and built upon it.

To the theorycrafting part, my guess is that we’ll most likely try and go to Cantha since the only thing blocking us from reaching there has now ended. Story-wise, I’d suggest that we’ll most likely be joining a Tengu attempt to return home for the promise that they’ll help fight the dragons, as well as looking towards the Empire of the Dragon to help provide in the fight against the various elder dragons. The latter achieved by supporting a non-isolationist claimant to the throne of the Empire of the Dragon.

In pure speculative mode, I’d even go so far as to suppose that the Empire of the Dragon might not be as untouched by the dragons as some might think; it is simply that they have been used in a very different fashion. I’m nursing something of a pet theory regarding the fact that there might be an Elder Dragon underneath the Harvest Temple, one tied with the element or facet of ‘life’ or ‘nature’, and is responsible for the creation of both the Pale Tree and Urgoz. But… that’s pretty much pure speculation based upon inferences at this point, so I’ll not go further. I feel I’ve rambled enough as it is.

The whole dragon thing is perfect for a Cantha expansion. They may have to go more uniformally with the design in terms of making it strictly Japanese, or Chinese but not mixing them as they did initially…Because of politics, apparently (there’s another thread in the general section about the whole issue)

If cantha makes a comeback I hope we can see things like the colossus fractal, the canthans seem to have been big on colossal architecture so it would be a great to render that in more detail than GW1 could

As for technology I hope they haven’t advanced a whole lot if only for variety’s sake, we already got a lot of steampunk in the current Tyria

Cantha’s isolation probably is a good indication that it hasn’t advanced all that much because their last known Emperor was extremely xenophobic…That’s not to say advancements haven’t been made in other area’s, but in terms of mechanical technologies I bet it would be minimal..Especially when you consider that we’ve moved into the industrial age relatively recently in the regions we do have available to us right now.

They could do so many cool things with Cantha both with the Dragon’s storylines and other types of gameplay.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

No I think they should not do that. Anet should do with the continent what they want to do with and not what people with false national pride want it to be. If they think a fantasy culture is a wrong representation of their actual culture (which makes of course no sense at all) then it is their problem. I want to see Anet’s version of Cantha, not “we changed it according to the wishes of some people in the asian community” Cantha.

Even taking out the Canthan district in DR is going to far, imo. I’m all for respecting different cultures and not offending anyone, but this is ridiculous and borderline oppression of the artistic freedom of Anet by a vocal minority.

I cannot +1 this enough times. Your words=my mind.

Mechos.5640:

To the theorycrafting part, my guess is that we’ll most likely try and go to Cantha since the only thing blocking us from reaching there has now ended. Story-wise, I’d suggest that we’ll most likely be joining a Tengu attempt to return home for the promise that they’ll help fight the dragons, as well as looking towards the Empire of the Dragon to help provide in the fight against the various elder dragons. The latter achieved by supporting a non-isolationist claimant to the throne of the Empire of the Dragon.

You forget that there’s an Elder Dragon of the deep sea between Tyria and Cantha still. And that one managed to push out not just quaggans, largos, and krait, but also karka from their homeland.

That dragon has to be one hell of a kitten.

Now, I see no reason for your explanation for going to Cantha – the tengu were forced out of Cantha, so why would they return to Cantha for the promise that they’ll help fight the ED? Furthermore, why would the Empire of the Dragon aid in fighting ED? There’s no benefit in it to them as far as they’re likely concerned, presuming there’s no ED conflict in Cantha already.

Mechos.5640:

In pure speculative mode, I’d even go so far as to suppose that the Empire of the Dragon might not be as untouched by the dragons as some might think; it is simply that they have been used in a very different fashion. I’m nursing something of a pet theory regarding the fact that there might be an Elder Dragon underneath the Harvest Temple, one tied with the element or facet of ‘life’ or ‘nature’, and is responsible for the creation of both the Pale Tree and Urgoz. But… that’s pretty much pure speculation based upon inferences at this point, so I’ll not go further. I feel I’ve rambled enough as it is.

Mordremoth takes that theme already, and all indications put in closer to Tyria than the deep sea dragon (which is between Tyria/Elona and Cantha). Furthermore, there’s no similarity between Urgoz and the Pale Tree. At all. Except that they’re sentient trees – but so are oakhearts and the like.

The Pale Tree is closer to the Ancestor Trees found in Elona that’s the center of centaur faith.

I am presuming that the reason why you pick the Harvest Temple is due to the line of the GW1 description? " Legends say a powerful dragon was trapped within the temple and lives there still. " – this line is in reference to Kuunavang.

My personal theory on the matter of Elder Dragons and Cantha is that there’s an Elder Sky Dragon, of which kuunavang is the champion of (Kuunavang is compared alongside Glint in The Movement of the World; though this may have been written prior to Glint becoming Kralk’s champion in Anet’s mind). I’d personally like to believe this dragon is more benevolent than not, compared to Kuunavangs actions – that, or, the forgotten who were in Cantha did the same to Kuunavang that they did to Glint in Tyria.

To explain the notion of “there’s only six Elder Dragons” – there’s only six that the jotun new of, and there’s no traces of jotuns in Cantha (I’m actually surprised they knew of the DSD – or maybe they didn’t, and there’s still an unknown ED close to Tyria somewhere). Same goes for surviving races – of which, I think kodan, tengu, and krait are survivors from the last ED rise alongside the five known by jotun.

Again I hate political correctness over stupid things.America in Japanese games and anime is far worse then any western game depicting asian culters.Just look at metal wolf chaos.Why arent we allowed to have asian cultures depicted in a slightly inaccurate(its effen fantasy!) view even if its positive like cantha being a proud and powerful civilization?Yet in asian media americans are represented as fat stupid gun crazy slobs.Just this week in fact North Korea released a propaganda video on youtube showing New York being nuked by North Korea.

Also wouldnt having an asian themed section in GW2 attract the asian market? It seems to be doing that with Pandaria.

Dev quote from today actually.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Cantha was my favorite GW1 region to work on. And I worked on every GW release. I know a lot of the dev team loved it and would love to revisit it. I kinda agree with critickitten about the negative aspect of tight corridors. Most of that came from hitting technological limits while trying to keep the epic quality of the concept art. I think we could do some really amazing things with those themes in our new engine. Certainly nothing is ruled out. I certainly encourage anyone to express your desire for a Cantha region in GW2 in a positive and friendly way. It could be years away, but it’s worth asking for.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/page/2#post1385130

I think Cantha is certianly potential future content. After all they did do the Winds of Change GW:B chapters which I suspect set up alot for a setting for Cantha in GW2.

As for engineering, its worth remembering that the Empire absorbed both the luxons and the Kurzicks, both of who had their own specialised styles of engineering. Fort Aspenwood was fighting over what was basicly a Kurzick sonic weapon.

Cantha also has alot of old magic to it. I wouldnt doubt in the slightest that although canthan technology might not be as ‘sci fi’ as the Pacts, it would still hold its own very effectively.

If you’re wanting to see Cantha in GW2 please go to the link the poster above me linked, and express it.

Ah, Konig! I was wondering when you’d post. I need to make this quick, but I’ll try and elaborate further in another post.

However, in terms of the rationale behind going there, it’s fairly simple. I don’t imagine that the Tengu have forgotten, nor forgiven the Canthans for being pushed out of their homelands. Currently they are a neutral party in the war against the Elder Dragons, in a time when we need every warm body that can pick up a sword or till a field. Offering them aid in trying to reclaim their homeland, even if that aid comes in the form of sending random adventurers (us), would be balanced by getting the entire Tengu military, in such an agreement.

As to why the Empire would help us? Well… that’s actually kind of tied to the whole ‘Elder Dragon underneath the harvest temple’ thing. I theorize that the reason Cantha has been so… bountiful, so to speak, so lush and verdant, is that the Elder Dragon of life is underneath it. That its ‘corruption’, so to speak, comes in the form of things like the Echovald forest or the rich farmlands of Shing Jea. Honestly, when you consider the fact that Kaineng City is bigger than the entirety of Shing Jea island, how can they feed themselves considering they can’t import food from Tyria or Elona?

Ultimately, the similarities between Urgoz and the Pale tree are more about superficial and narrative similarities. Even you must see the pattern of a mighty tree-avatar (in this case, the Pale Tree and Urgoz), that constantly creates human-looking sentient minions (in this case, the Sylvari and the Wardens). There are certain patterns, so to speak.

Anyhow, to tie this all back: My guess is that the upper echelons of the Empire of the Dragon, including the Emperor himself, have been (either knowingly or unknowingly) ‘feeding’ the dragon through the yearly rituals at the Harvest temple. It was also this dragon’s power that Shiro tapped in order to create the Jade Wind (similar to how some theorize Vizier Khilbron’s scrolls tapped in to the power of Zhaitan beneath Orr).

Story-wise? We’ll most likely go there, find a more tolerant prince who has been largely ignored or suppressed, and help him in leading a rebellion to restore the Canthan Empire to its glory. In essence, putting a friendly emperor on the throne, who will then promise to allow non-humans back in to Cantha, as well as military aid for the people that so graciously supported his rightful claim.

Oh. And in regards to the Deep Sea Dragon, I don’t really see that as a major impasse to getting to Cantha. After all, it wasn’t Bubbles that cut off all contact with Cantha, it was Zhaitan.

Anyhow, will be back later. Toodles!

There’s a major flaw in your speculation. And that is that you make four large assumptions.

Assumption 1:

I theorize that the reason Cantha has been so… bountiful, so to speak, so lush and verdant, is that the Elder Dragon of life is underneath it.

Nothing – and I do mean nothing – implies or states that Cantha has been bountiful. We’re literally going off of 100 years of complete unknowns, and even before Zhaitan’s rise 100 years prior to GW2, there’s been another 100 years of Cantha being isolated while there was still sea travel for Tyria.

That’s basically 100 years of loose contact where all we got were exiles, and a total of 200 years where we get either no or biased information about Cantha. And naturally, those exiles were out of Cantha for 100 years unless they were humans. Meaning although the tengu arrived in Tyria 100 years

In other words, we’re going off of 200 years of no information. Cantha’s state is 100% unknown. They could be bountiful as you speculate. They could be technologically advanced far beyond the charr. Or they can be in worse states than in GW1. They may have opened their borders – the Canthan Empires hold a habit of contradicting their predecessor (look at Canthan history and you’d be surprised how many times they opened and closed their borders – I think Usoku is the fourth or fifth emperor to do so), or they may have become worse than before.

Anet has left in such a way that they can make anything happen in Cantha itself. It can be a complete utopia for all, or just one for humans, or hell for all.

Assumption 2:

Ultimately, the similarities between Urgoz and the Pale tree are more about superficial and narrative similarities. Even you must see the pattern of a mighty tree-avatar (in this case, the Pale Tree and Urgoz), that constantly creates human-looking sentient minions (in this case, the Sylvari and the Wardens). There are certain patterns, so to speak.

Urgoz doesn’t make Wardens. He just guides them. The Wardens are closer to the Druids than anything, though their history is still unknown to us in large amounts. Urgoz’s nature is outright stated too – he’s a forest spirit. One of many in the Echovald Forest, and the only one known to be corrupted by the Jade Wind. Yes, the reason he is, and by extension the Wardens are, evil is due to the Jade Wind. No dragons involved.

Assumption 3:

Anyhow, to tie this all back: My guess is that the upper echelons of the Empire of the Dragon, including the Emperor himself, have been (either knowingly or unknowingly) ‘feeding’ the dragon through the yearly rituals at the Harvest temple. It was also this dragon’s power that Shiro tapped in order to create the Jade Wind (similar to how some theorize Vizier Khilbron’s scrolls tapped in to the power of Zhaitan beneath Orr).

However, this is not the case.

Firstly, we were outright told that the Cataclysm held no effect on Zhaitan. (source) “Not in the least. Zhaitan is unaffected by such small things as wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents.” Secondly, we know that the power taken from the Harvest Ceremony comes from the (then) Five Gods themselves – with Dwayna specifically mentioned (source) “However it began, Shiro consummated his plan on the final day of the Harvest Festival in the year 1382 CC. On that most holy day of the Canthan year, when all of the gods were praised to the heavens and the emperor’s divine blessing was placed on the land, Shiro accompanied his sovereign to the Harvest Temple.” and “He struck the moment the emperor had received the second blessing of Holy Dwayna,” And we also know the origin of what corrupted the power too: “He learned the ways of forbidden sorcery and engaged in studies and rituals well beyond the disciplines of the Assassin. He found that these taboo powers were second nature to him, and the darkest forms of magic were the easiest of all. "

Assumption 4:

Oh. And in regards to the Deep Sea Dragon, I don’t really see that as a major impasse to getting to Cantha. After all, it wasn’t Bubbles that cut off all contact with Cantha, it was Zhaitan.

That’s because the deep sea dragon woke up roughly 50 years after Zhaitan rose. In other words, the only individuals on continental Tyria who had any dealings with the deep sea dragon and its minions are those who were forced out of their homes by it – the quaggan, krait, largos, and karka. The quaggan of Timberline Falls confirms the long-standing theory that they were pushed out by an Elder Dragon(‘s forces), and there’s only one that could influence such.

The deep sea dragon couldn’t cut off contact because contact was already severed.

Well, Konig, I don’t make any claims to it being more of a ‘gut feeling/informed guess’ based on some patterns I’ve observed. But let me attempt to answer the four points that you’ve put up:

1. Well, Shing Jea is mentioned as being particularly bountiful… and the assumption that Cantha must be bountiful is based on simple logic, as I mention above. Look at where we find farmlands in Cantha: Pretty much exclusively on Shing Jea island. Considering that Kaineng City alone is larger than Shing Jea Island, and that having more city than farmland is not really something that you find in an isolated society, it seems logical to conclude that Shing Jea must be particularly bountiful, or just Cantha in general.

After all, consider the size comparison between Divinity’s Reach and the rest of Kryta, which is pretty much farmland (there being no large forests or seas to interrupt agriculture). So that’s what I used to base my assumption on, since a city cannot support itself, and having more city than farmland is not really… possible without something making the farmland extremely productive.

2. To address this, as you say, a lot of what Urgoz and the Wardens are is pretty much little more than in-character supposition that they ‘may’ have been once holy men or humans. There’s no indication that this guess is anywhere close to right.

One other point in favour of the wardens being some sort of elder dragon minion… is that the wardens (and, indeed, Urgoz) were entirely immune to the effects of the Jade Wind. And what just happens to be immune to the effects of Elder Dragon corruption? Dragon minions (and Sylvari).

I’m not saying that he’s evil because of dragons, I’m saying that he -exists- because of dragons. The Elder Dragon of Life (Mordramoth, if I’m spelling that correctly), I believe operates through a different… method, which I shall address below.

3. Again, I think I may have misrepresented myself (a fault on my part, to which I must apologize). I believe it was one of the story quests in Orr that hinted towards a connection between Zhaitan being responsible for at least part of the reason why Orr was such an intrinsically magical land. Magic which, I believe it was hinted, provided something of the ‘source’ for Vizier Khilbron to use the Forbidden Scrolls and sink the nation.

It is this idea of using the Elder Dragons as a sort of ‘magical amplifier/battery’ that I am applying to the rationale of Mordramoth being beneath the Harvest Temple. It was that power that made a (frankly, rather average) assassin able to petrify half a continent. After all, Abaddon was chained, it’s not as if he could whip out a magic nuke whenever he felt like it. There had to be something special about Orr and the Harvest Temple that allowed him to use those super-powered spells there, else he would’ve just had his minions dropping Cataclysms and Jade Winds all over the place.

To go with what you say about it being a festival of the gods… well, that may be what the Canthans -thought- it would be. But the Elder Dragons collect, and consume magic. I believe that, by performing the rituals to their dieties, Mordramoth was claiming that magic for itself; siphoning it off little by little, growing day by day. Hell, even just the act of worship in the area could be enough; we can see how Guardians and Paragons can turn faith into acts of magic. Who’s to say that Elder Dragons only feast on magical artifacts, and not magical energy summoned by others?

That’s where I’m kind of coming from. Could be completely wrong, but it seems like too many pieces match, too many patterns show up, for it to be -complete- coincidence.

Also, one final thing.

To point 4: I concede that one utterly, I’d completely forgotten that the DSD had only awoken 50 years ago. Though I will say that, since we know the Elder Dragons fight each other (Kralky vs. Zhaitan in the Crystal Desert, for example), the fact that Zhaitan’s fleets weren’t being attacked by the DSD makes me believe that… frankly, Bubbles doesn’t really care what’s going on at the surface, at least for the moment. That all could change, certainly, but… he seems more of a sea-floor dwelling type. Consider the races he’s already pushed out, not a lot of them spent time on the surface.

And, since I apparently hit the maximum post limit (I didn’t even know that was a thing), this little snippet at the end will just have to go in 2nd:

Oh, and one addition to go on with this theorycrafting. I actually postulate that each of the five playable races has a very good reason for wanting to go to Cantha.

Humans: Well, Canthans in Tyria probably want to go home, and a Canthan expansion will probably have a pre-event of re-building the Canthan district or somesuch.

Asura: The Asura had a portal linking to underground ruins of unknown origin (I would speculate Asuran, or at least a place of Asuran interest, since they already had a functioning gate there). A shaky reason, admittedly, but still a historical connection.

Sylvari: The aforementioned Warden/Urgoz connection seems pretty obvious to me, and it seems like the Sylvari might at least be curious about it. Even if not, they’d probably want to go there just to see, and if there is an Elder Dragon under the Harvest Temple, it would be their duty to do battle with it.

Charr: Probably the weakest of the five, having no previous historical connection. What I could see them going to Cantha for, however, is technology. After all, a group of nomadic pirates 250 years ago managed to build machines that the Charr can’t even top today, not to mention inventing cannons long before the Charr did. Even today, Charr tanks would be dwarfed by the sheer size of the Luxon gigantic mecha-leviathans.

Norn: I would argue that the Norn might see some similarity between the Celestials and their own Spirits; there is certainly enough there that they could build on some sort of connection. Not to mention, Norn would probably go to Cantha just to be able to say they were the first Norn in Cantha, and build their legend. Doesn’t really need more to lure norn somewhere than saying it’ll make you famous.

Guild Warrior.9540:

Again I hate political correctness over stupid things.America in Japanese games and anime is far worse then any western game depicting asian culters.Just look at metal wolf chaos.Why arent we allowed to have asian cultures depicted in a slightly inaccurate(its effen fantasy!) view even if its positive like cantha being a proud and powerful civilization?Yet in asian media americans are represented as fat stupid gun crazy slobs.Just this week in fact North Korea released a propaganda video on youtube showing New York being nuked by North Korea.

It’s always like this, In american media for example Germany only consits of Bavaria, with their lederhosen and beer tents, the Black Forest, with people building clocks and baking cake and some secret nazis who deny the holocaust ever happened (which is by the way a crime in Germany).
This is much more offensive than anything Anet ever did in Cantha and yet how often do you hear germans threaten to boycott american media? Probably never, because we don’t care. Everyone knows that those are just stereotypes (usually played for laughs) so why take that seriously? Besides, I personally think it’s a great joy, finding out what aspects of a fantasy culture belong to a certain real life culture.

While I’d like to see both Cantha and Elona included in future expansions sometime, I would be quite happy if Kaineng was excluded. I hated that place with a fiery passion. It was cool for about 5 seconds seeing the shanty town type buildings but it got repetitive very fast and it was tedious navigating around the place.

My guess is it will probably play out like Orr. Asuran’s will be teaching everyone about Canthan history, Charr will be patrolling the streets in their tanks, and some Sylvari dude will be organizing the whole thing.

If I recall correctly, the Jade Wind was a kind of death effect… it isn’t something Abaddon could have set off whenever he wanted. (And it’s also possible that Shiro was somewhat special compared to the rest of Abaddon’s minions – we are talking about magic, so…) Doesn’t rule out the Harvest Temple being a place of special power, though. All the same, not all of that was due to dragons in GW1.

Lutinz.6915:

Dev quote from today actually.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Cantha was my favorite GW1 region to work on. And I worked on every GW release. I know a lot of the dev team loved it and would love to revisit it. I kinda agree with critickitten about the negative aspect of tight corridors. Most of that came from hitting technological limits while trying to keep the epic quality of the concept art. I think we could do some really amazing things with those themes in our new engine. Certainly nothing is ruled out. I certainly encourage anyone to express your desire for a Cantha region in GW2 in a positive and friendly way. It could be years away, but it’s worth asking for.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/page/2#post1385130

I think Cantha is certianly potential future content. After all they did do the Winds of Change GW:B chapters which I suspect set up alot for a setting for Cantha in GW2.

As for engineering, its worth remembering that the Empire absorbed both the luxons and the Kurzicks, both of who had their own specialised styles of engineering. Fort Aspenwood was fighting over what was basicly a Kurzick sonic weapon.

Cantha also has alot of old magic to it. I wouldnt doubt in the slightest that although canthan technology might not be as ‘sci fi’ as the Pacts, it would still hold its own very effectively.

If I am Cantha I would send spies and assassins into Tyria before the actual invasion. Get an idea of what we are up against first and weaken the enemy by killing their leadership. I would also give weapons to local rebels (Seperatists, Centaurs, Ogres, anyone but Charrs) to further weaken Tyria.

I don’t foresee an invasion of Tyria happening from Cantha at all. They are currently an isolationist nation where as several Tyrian cultures have unified to fight the Dragon threat, liberate Ascalon, and Orr…We have no idea what’s happened there except for a few Canthan’s and Pirates here and there coming up on the shores of other regions, for all we know their isolation has done wonders for them, maybe it’s cleaned up a lot due to it. Maybe they’ve been able to make significant progress in reducing the poverty in the lower levels of Kaineng and there could be a new Emperor or Empress on the throne that has done significant reforms…Maybe a few successive ones since Usoku, who unless something strange is going on, would long since be dead and there would probably have been a few new leaders since him. Maybe the Tengu we’ve met are the descendents of the ones forced out of Cantha, but they could have ‘relatives’ who are still there and they could have been brought back…This is part of why I want Cantha to be added sooner than later, I’m really interested in seeing what’s happened.

@Mechos these are still large assumptions. There is no reason to assume that Kaineng is bountiful. A huge famine wave could have hit the city and they could have rioted against the government. The Emperor could’ve seized the farms in Shing Jea and oppressed the people. Or slaughtered them. Or cannonshelled the farmlands to oblivion in their purge of the Tengu. Who knows? There are so many more ways this scenario can play out.

Also other creatures were unaffected by the Jade Wind: Kurzicks and Luxons. Are they dragon minions? I highly doubt it. And what is a dragon minion? A being constructed by or corrupted by a dragon’s magic. And what’s been established as not being dragon’s magic is the Jade Wind.

Shiro was no average assassin, he was descended from Kaineng Tah, Cantha’s first Emperor and was chosen as the then-current emperor’s bodyguard. No way and Emperor’s gonna pick an average guy to be his personal bodyguard. And until proven otherwise, the Harvest Ceremony is dedicated solely to the gods, the Emperor received a blessing directly from Dwayna herself, with the accompanying Ritualists as witnesses. Shiro corrupted this power through a dark ritual, studied from Abaddon. It has been stated over and over again that the Cataclysm and the Jade Wind are machinations of Abaddon with the intent to hasten Nightfall. The Fortune Teller herself is a demon of Abaddon. Razakel was a demon who convinced Vizier Khilbron (a follower of Abaddon) to unleash the Cataclysm. All three major GW1 plotlines are Abaddon’s schemes.

I’d agree that Cantha is probably a very sick state at the moment, and in no position to invade another continent. I also suspect that the current emperor there is probably under the influence of an elder dragon, since their isolationist/xenophobic policies are exactly inline with the elder dragon’s desire to divide and conquer the races of Tyria. Which elder dragon is involved is unclear since we only know the elder dragons living in Tyria at present.
Isolated from overseas trade, Cantha will have turned in on it’s self. The absence of imported raw materials will have seriously slowed industry, and any technological innovation is likely to have been stunted due to the imperial government suppressing anything that could upset their hold on absolute power. Indeed, there may well have been a reversal of technological advancement. Gunpowder weaponry may well have been banned as this would be ideal for insurgents to use against an oppressive regime.
There may well have been expansion into the interior of Cantha to the lands beyond the inland jade sea in search of wood, and metal ores. So Kaineng may not be starving, yet. What is likely is that there is a widening gap between the rich elite, and the vast horde of urban destitute living with very little in the way of rights and governed by corrupt officials.
Given that the people were always somewhat more free thinking and open to outsiders and other races on Shining Jea Island, I would not be surprised if on return to Cantha that we end up there first, and that we will be met by a resistance movement based there. The mountains would be a lot easier to operate in than the choked streets of Kaineng city. The Tengu also used to live there, and may well still have contacts, so I suspect they will be involved in any return to Cantha.

Mechos.5640:

1. Well, Shing Jea is mentioned as being particularly bountiful… and the assumption that Cantha must be bountiful is based on simple logic, as I mention above.

This is only due to Cantha having opened trade with Tyria. To quote An Empire Divided “Shing Jea Island, heavily logged for centuries, began the long road to recovery in this year, resulting in the pastoral agricultural land (Cantha’s breadbasket) seen today. " The year being 221 AE. Incidentally, Shing Jea becoming farmland led to the Tengu Wars, since it was previously mostly tengu and yeti territory.

Now, consider this: without trade, where will they get their much needed lumber? From the large forest that’s still stone? They basically removed all the forests of Shing Jea, and even then, it’s unlikely that it provided food for Luxons and Kurzicks too, since they were vassal states.

All indications point to Cantha being in material poverty, unless they expanded south or demolished some of their city to make way for planting.

Mechos.5640:

One other point in favour of the wardens being some sort of elder dragon minion… is that the wardens (and, indeed, Urgoz) were entirely immune to the effects of the Jade Wind. And what just happens to be immune to the effects of Elder Dragon corruption? Dragon minions (and Sylvari).

BZZT. Wrong. Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha are all beings corrupted by multiple Elder Dragon energies. Only sylvari and forgotten magic are immune. Also, Urgoz was corrupted by the Jade Wind.

Mechos.5640:

I believe it was one of the story quests in Orr that hinted towards a connection between Zhaitan being responsible for at least part of the reason why Orr was such an intrinsically magical land. Magic which, I believe it was hinted, provided something of the ‘source’ for Vizier Khilbron to use the Forbidden Scrolls and sink the nation.

In the personal story, the only hint of magic would be the independently magical The Artesian Waters – Zhaitan was stated to be a magical source though, in an interview and in explorable Arah (seer path). However, the source for the Forbidden Scrolls was never elaborated – as far as I’ve seen (and by now I’ve done about 2/3rds of the personal storyline options) in GW2. So we only have the Prophecies manuals to go off of: magic that predates the gift of magic by the gods.

Even then, your thoughts are still debunked. It was magic granted by the five gods that got twisted via an ancient dark ritual that caused the Jade Wind (Abaddon didn’t go whipping out a magical nuke in either case).

Mechos.5640:

But the Elder Dragons collect, and consume magic. I believe that, by performing the rituals to their dieties, Mordramoth was claiming that magic for itself; siphoning it off little by little, growing day by day.

Right. But you see, this was magic given to the emperors and stolen by Shiro. The Jade Wind was caused by Shiro himself. No tapping into ancient powers, except what you’re now claiming was being stolen by an Elder Dragon. There’s a flaw there.

Also, Shiro was going to unleash a second Jade Wind in his death during Factions – but Suun, the Oracle of the Mists, and three of his adepts made it backlash, turning Shiro alone into Jade (you can tell this is what’s happening by his posture, and the deathwail – both of which is the same as the Factions trailer).

Mechos.5640:

Though I will say that, since we know the Elder Dragons fight each other (Kralky vs. Zhaitan in the Crystal Desert, for example), the fact that Zhaitan’s fleets weren’t being attacked by the DSD makes me believe that… frankly, Bubbles doesn’t really care what’s going on at the surface, at least for the moment. That all could change, certainly, but… he seems more of a sea-floor dwelling type. Consider the races he’s already pushed out, not a lot of them spent time on the surface.

Nothing indicates Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik’s forces were fighting – the only known conflict in the Crystal Desert would be Risen vs. Elonians.

And nothing says Zhaitan’s fleets weren’t being attacked by the DSD’s minions (also, Zhaitan’s fleet sail underwater until attack). And krait spent plenty of time on the surface of water too.

(more in next post)

Mechos.5640:

Asura: The Asura had a portal linking to underground ruins of unknown origin (I would speculate Asuran, or at least a place of Asuran interest, since they already had a functioning gate there). A shaky reason, admittedly, but still a historical connection.

Eh, not really. The existence of an asura gate under Kaineng or Kamadan is highly dubious, for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, it was stated by Linsey Murdock that the NF’s quests to Tyria/Cantha that mention long-gone threats is not canon, but implemented to allow players from NF go to play Prophecies/Factions. Furthermore, the existence of these two asura gates would mean that Ogden, Vekk, and all those others were underneath Lion’s Arch, Kamadan, and Kaineng City at the same time – or those very very short tunnels reached across the Unending Ocean/Crystal Desert. Highly unlikely. Those two gates are unlikely to be canon.

Mechos.5640:

Norn: I would argue that the Norn might see some similarity between the Celestials and their own Spirits; there is certainly enough there that they could build on some sort of connection. Not to mention, Norn would probably go to Cantha just to be able to say they were the first Norn in Cantha, and build their legend. Doesn’t really need more to lure norn somewhere than saying it’ll make you famous.

Stronger connection would be Zhu Hanuku, which is called a spirit of the sea. Zhu Hanuku has always reminded me of some sort of Kraken Spirit (corrupted by the Jade Wind). I bet the norn would call him Kraken.

Gregorius.1024:

the Emperor received a blessing directly from Dwayna herself, with the accompanying Ritualists as witnesses. Shiro corrupted this power through a dark ritual, studied from Abaddon.

Just want to note: Dwayna’s not present, as far as we know, and we don’t know where Shiro found about the dark ritual (I’d guess some royal library, tbh).

To address your points, Konig:

1. Yes. As we know, the Echovald and Jade Sea both have their ‘curses’ lifted with the death of Shiro Tagachi. Considering that process started (and seemed to have noticeable effects) nearly 250 years ago, it seems likely that today it would serve as the new source of Canthan lumber. After all, the Kurzicks aren’t really in a position to protest them logging the forests, and it seems highly unlikely that Emperor Usoku would block off all trade, even with his xenophobia, if it meant that Cantha would basically implode in on itself.

2. A fair point, but consider: They had to be -created-. You don’t find things like Branded Risen, Icebrood Branded, or Risen Destroyers out in the wild, now do you? As to Urgoz, no, he wasn’t corrupted by the Jade Wind (if he was, then he’d be a statue). He was enraged and driven insane by the damage to the forest, but that was an incidental effect to the Jade Wind’s blast, not something that was a direct corruption by it.

3. As the source of Orr’s magic is something that’s left ambiguous, I’d say we leave that for now. There’s evidence going either way, and at this point it’s just us thinking which evidence or hypothesis fits best (which is, in turn, derived from how we view things fitting in the narrative and in the setting).

As to the Jade Wind however, I’d argue that the magic did not come from the five gods, but instead was drawn from whatever lies beneath the Harvest Temple (which, as mentioned, I hypothesize to be Mordramoth). The Gods may have figured out how to use that magic, but I feel it was Mordramoth that was the ultimate source of it. Think of it like… say… a magical battery. Which is what I hypothesize with the Cataclysm, as well. Basically, since Abaddon was chained, he needed to find a source of magic besides himself to power those massive spells. And what better source of magic than beings made up entirely of magic? Which, in turn, explains why those spells only functioned in those two areas, rather than having Khilbron running around sinking continents hither and thither.

3. To address your third point; there is an inconsistency in your objection. First, you point to the source of the Jade Wind as being magic stolen by Shiro from the Emperor. All well and to the good, if we’re talking about the Emperor that was in the middle of a magical ritual in the Harvest Temple.

Doesn’t really make as much sense, however, if he tried to do the same thing without it. Where would he have got that magic from? Master Togo’s bad voice acting? No, no. I theorize that this ‘second Jade Wind’ he was aiming to unleash was nothing of the sort. We don’t really know what happened, or why he turned to jade, hm?

4. The conflict in the Crystal Desert was mentioned as being a three-way battle between Zhaitan’s Risen, Kralkatorrik, and the Elonians. I can try and get you a source, but there are multiple pages on the Wiki that mention it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Desert

I’ll try and get more for you when I can find it.

As to the DSD and Zhaitan, you’re right, we don’t know. But it would seem, if there were grand naval battles between Zhaitan and the DSD, there might be some mention of it.

Anyhow, moving on to the other stuff.

I’m not quite convinced that the halls under Kaineng were out of character, if only because of one thing. Ogden and company being present in all three of them is easily explainable away by the fact that each path is cannon in each story; after all, you can’t go to one, and then go to another and find them again. If you go through one path, then boom, they were in that one path. IF you go to another, then they were there. Something like that.

More to the point, the space argument isn’t really that hard to fathom; they were linked by portals, after all, so they could be the extent of the ruins in that section, and just be linked by portals (as Asura are wont to do). But, I’d be curious to see the Linsey Murdock stuff, since that might completely invalidate my hypothesis.

Also, good catch on Zhu Hanuku, I nearly forgot about him. Wonder if he’s out and about again, with the ‘melting’ of the Jade Sea? Either way.

One thing I think I need to point out though, this is all really kind of speculation on my part. It’s linking out of character narrative cliches with what information and patterns have been provided. I’m perfectly open to the possibility (nay, probability) that I am dead wrong… but I’ve got a bit of a gut feeling on this, if that makes any sense.

But I must admit, very glad to be kind of having this back and forth Konig. Helps to find holes, and then try to patch them up.

Mechos.5640:

it seems highly unlikely that Emperor Usoku would block off all trade, even with his xenophobia, if it meant that Cantha would basically implode in on itself.

Cantha did block off all trade though, we are explicitly told that Usoku chose to end all trade and become isolated right after he shipped the willing tengu off back to Tyria. Now things can change. I mean obviously, without some intervention, Usoku is dead and someone else is in power. What their plans are may be completely different, things do change in 250 years. Another question is if the emperor tried to change his approach, would the Ministry of Purity allow him to keep power, or would they unleash a power play to leave him little more than a figurehead.

Mechos.5640:

As to the Jade Wind however, I’d argue that the magic did not come from the five gods, but instead was drawn from whatever lies beneath the Harvest Temple (which, as mentioned, I hypothesize to be Mordramoth). The Gods may have figured out how to use that magic, but I feel it was Mordramoth that was the ultimate source of it. Think of it like… say… a magical battery. Which is what I hypothesize with the Cataclysm, as well. Basically, since Abaddon was chained, he needed to find a source of magic besides himself to power those massive spells. And what better source of magic than beings made up entirely of magic? Which, in turn, explains why those spells only functioned in those two areas, rather than having Khilbron running around sinking continents hither and thither.

Again some misconceptions. Unless we are told that the lore has changed all that we have to go off of is the old lore. Without that backing we could start speculating that aliens came and dropped off ray guns for the emperors. Based on this, we are told that it was specifically a gift from Dwayna to the Emperor. Plus thinking logically, no mortals have tapped physically into a dragon’s power and haven’t been effected by it. And though we do not know what the source of magic was for the spell that Khilbron used (since we know it can’t be the separated bloodstones), we do know that the goal for his attack was to destroy Arah, and get back at the other gods.

Mechos.5640:

3. To address your third point; there is an inconsistency in your objection. First, you point to the source of the Jade Wind as being magic stolen by Shiro from the Emperor. All well and to the good, if we’re talking about the Emperor that was in the middle of a magical ritual in the Harvest Temple.

Doesn’t really make as much sense, however, if he tried to do the same thing without it. Where would he have got that magic from? Master Togo’s bad voice acting? No, no. I theorize that this ‘second Jade Wind’ he was aiming to unleash was nothing of the sort. We don’t really know what happened, or why he turned to jade, hm?

We know he was encased in jade by the acolytes of Sunn.

@Mechos (rather than quoting):

1. Actually, all we know is that there are rumors that the Echovald and Jade Sea began de-petrifying beginning no later than 1078 AE. But they’re only rumors. And these rumors can begin by only a handful of plants, or a bit of water found beneath deep jade mines. Furthermore, there’s no point of reference of whether there’s actual de-petrification and not a case of new life/the Jade Wind never freezing the entire sea (but only the top portion); similarly, there’s no point of reference for how fast things are de-petrifying. I mean, there’s no real reason why Shiro’s second death or Abaddon’s death has anything to do with this, so the de-petrifying, if the rumors are true, could have been slowly occurring since the Jade Wind, and is only noticeable in tiny amounts 200 years later. Meaning that unless there’s an acceleration in the rate of de-petrifying, even in GW2 most of the Echovald and Jade Sea will be petrified still.

Also, Usoku did block off all trade, and people aren’t really longterm planners when full of xenophobic propaganda like what the Ministry of Purity spouts. And even then, he has historical support to show Cantha can support itself – however, these cases were before the Jade Wind, mostly, so Kaineng City was much smaller.

2. True, we don’t find wild dragon minions corrupted by multiple dragons. However, we don’t see dragon minions interacting outside CoE and Vexa’s Lab. The closest we get is Kessex Hills or Timberline Falls, where there are destroyers and risen in the same map, but the whole map apart from each other. So we can’t really say there’s no destroyer that got Branded-ified. Also, based on the ED’s preference of corruption, some combinations are impossible (e.g., risen destroyer – destroyers aren’t ever living beings, risen always are dead beings).

As to Urgoz: yes, he was but he wasn’t petrified – same with Saltspray Dragons and kirins. “the Kurzicks blame Urgoz, a corrupted forest spirit” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Amatz_Basin_%28outpost%29

3a. No, actually, it’s outright stated to be The Artesian Waters during The Cathedral of Silence story step. It is The Source of Orr, and outright stated that its magic is what drew the Six Gods from the Mists to Tyria, as well as being where they first stepped foot on the world, and that Zhaitan corrupted this magic source (hence the whole point of the final personal story step before facing Zhaitan).

With the Jade Wind, you’re now tossing canon lore aside just to fit your theory. Nothing says Mordremoth is in Cantha, however, and we see its influence in Tyria – Mordremoth holds more influence in Tyria than the deep sea dragon. This implies its closer. We’re told that the magic comes from the gods, so until we’re given implication to believe otherwise this is fact.

You are right on one thing: Abaddon did find magic sources. The Forbidden Scrolls held magic in them. They were its own magical source (being imbued with magic from before the Bloodstone’s division), and the Jade Wind comes from the other gods’ divine magic. They didn’t come from Elder Dragons.

So stop tossing aside canon facts that have no indication of being false just to fit your rather far-fetched hypothesis. (This said, I agree there may be an ED in Cantha, but a 7th one rather than Mordremoth).

3b. True, it isn’t very clear. However, his shout (“Nooooooo”) was the same, his posture was the same, both occurred at time of death, Suun and his acolytes did something to turn him into Jade (what the Jade Wind does to living beings). So this is logical deduction on my part. Where’d he get the power? He spent the entirity of Factions searching for knowledge and power on how to break the curse, was a powerful Envoy, spent 200 years wandering the Underworld before becoming an Envoy, and was tipping the balance by controlling souls. There’s a lot of places for him to obtain such, especially since the emperor’s blood seems to be special (thus so would Togo’s). And nothing said the Jade Wind was a one-time thing if the person managed to be resurrected.

4. Read those articles again, because they don’t talk about conflict between Kralkatorrik and anyone else. There’s only one source for the conflicts in the Crystal Desert: The Movement of the World (note, that’s a verbatim copied text, not fan-written), and that only states conflict between the dragon of Orr (as he wasn’t named during the writing of the article) and Elona’s borders.

And no, given how little there’s mention of the DSD at all, there’d be no indication or mention of Zhaitan fighting it. Especially given how in-game there’s no mention of Zhaitan’s forces battling northern Elona.

5. What you argue makes no sense. So they were in three places at once, but only the one you did? That’s a paradox there. And which would be the “actual happenings”? All three couldn’t occur at the same time.

Space argument fails because the asura gate is after you meet Ogden. You don’t go through one, or any other kind of portal, before meeting Ogden and co. Therefore, you travel roughly the same distance, placing you beneath Lion’s Arch, Kamadan, or Kaineng City despite the fact each of the three versions would take place at the same time. The Linsey Murdock stuff.

After reading a lot of other thoughts and theories I’m somewhat convinced that Kaineng City isn’t that big anymore. All trade activities were cut off, and even if a successor of Usoku lifted those restrictions, the elder dragons prevented that effectively. In my opinion it’s likely that after some time there wasn’t enough farmland and logging areas to nourish all citizens and maintain all buildings of Kaineng and beyond that. It’s a possibility that because of this they were forced to demolish parts of the city to even keep their society alive.

As Konig said, there are only rumors about the depetrification of the Echovald Forest, and it’s very possible that the process isn’t that far advanced yet what makes it impossible to use those grounds to keep society up.

I suspect that this all together impaired Cantha as a nation, what makes it unlikely to be technological advanced beyond other nations and races. I even see Cantha as a fairly weak country that is struggling to manage their own problems. How or if the dragons fit in is beyond that, and I even somehow hope that the dragons are not the reason of all problems in whole Tyria as a world.

I think there are hundreds of reasons Kaineng City may not remain as it used to. I’ve thought about it often hoping that it has disappeared in 250 years.

1) You have an Emperor who doesn’t give a crap what others think. If Usoku doesn’t like the city he’ll just burn it down and start over.
2) The overpopulation problem that created the city was probably drastically reduced between the Afflicted, the Shiro’ken, the Am Fah, The Jade Brotherhood, and the Ministry of Purity. All of the death that took place between Factions and Winds of Change had to make a massive impact.
3) Zhaitan’s Tsunami. I mean there is rumor that the Tsunami hit the Battle Isles, it isn’t crazy to think that it could hit Kaineng, especially when you think that no Tsunami on earth has been created by the uplifting of an entire peninsula from under the ocean, all of the devastating tsunami’s we see are the earth shifting a little underground. And I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t see Kaineng as being strong enough to withstand the effects of a tsunami.

Isolationism and lack of overseas trade cause other things besides ecconomic difficulties. With Cantha having no real external threat, or competition, it’s likely to have largely gotten stuck in a rut. If Cantha is based on a largely Chinese model, look what several centuries of isolation did there. Cantha is likely to have advanced much less than Tyria where constant wars and competition between races followed by dragon attacks have been stimulating everyone to develop new ideas and technologies.

My Chinese history is severely lacking, but didn’t they not have an overpopulation problem in those times of isolation, but did have internal wars? The complete opposite of Cantha.

All im going to say is if they didn’t include cantha and elona in expansions they would likely lose quite abit of players

I honestly enjoyed both Elona and Cantha. I loved the variety of classes branching outside the plain and some what boring classes in prophecies. ( Also in what we have now… just saying.) From how the story is playing out for what we have so far in the game, and from obvious hints from the end game. Most likely jormag is the next targeted elder dragon, from there I’d say they’d expand down to crystal desert on into Elona. Now why? Well there is so SOOOO much of the map that isn’t accessible but viewable outside ( when you press M you see all those locations that aren’t available because its not expanded yet.) I think after Anet finishes creating story into those lands they will then continue on to Elona then Cantha. To be completely honest I want to play a dervish… really badly.