Guild Wars 2

Okay before I start, obvious spoilers before people get bent out of shape about this.

I’ve got more than one character to 80 and I love the Charr start story missions and so forth. However I have one major problem with the story, Trahearne..

He turns up half way through the story and totally takes the spotlight from you. Everyone starts bowing down to him and following everything he does and all you have is his dirty work to do. He totally removes the feeling of being the spotlight of the story, the hero and the driving force in change and it comes out of nowhere.

I’m sorry but (even though I overall like the game) this is horrible writing and I just had to air my opinions on this.

Yes. kitten story-stealer

I didn’t hate him, but I was rather uninspired by him.
There’s a whole listing why in the thread on the defunct personal stories side of this forum.
Long story short I wouldn’t have minded him being the adventurous scholar running around the dungeons trying to find something help fight the Dragons.

That would have been awesome, but he was tacked on at the later act of the story and I never did get much of a chance to work with him before. That’s even with my Sylvari character. We at least saw the failings and successes of the other hero proxies in previous games before something big happened. We didn’t get much with him.

So I’m more on the pity side than hate.

mythil.9416:

He turns up half way through the story and totally takes the spotlight from you.

He turns up at various points in time based on character race. His first appearance for most players is Claw Island. He is introduced as someone well known by your mentor as a scholar of Orr. He is there for the very same reason you and your mentor are there, as he acknowledges. He then asks for your permission to accompany you. This is hardly taking charge.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Battle_of_Claw_Island#Dialogues

In the follow up mission he says some variation of, “[Player’s mentor’s] sacrifice held them back, but it was your bravery that led us to safety, my friend. I am grateful to you.”

You and Trahearne, at his request, seek help from the Pale Tree. This mission is largely about Orr, Trahearne, and his lack of confidence in being a general. Both Trahearne and the Pale Tree treat you as the player as important to reclaiming Orr. If anyone is stealing the spotlight at this point it’s that Avatar of the Pale Tree. Always building up Trahearne when he’s down and showing visions of your destiny.

The following mission has you saving your order. At the end you propose to form The Pact alliance, not Trahearne; and Trahearne agrees to follow whatever your plan might be.

Trahearne’s introduction, to most players, isn’t remarkably different from other NPCs that aid the player. It is hardly spotlight grabbing.

Everyone starts bowing down to him and following everything he does and all you have is his dirty work to do. He totally removes the feeling of being the spotlight of the story, the hero and the driving force in change and it comes out of nowhere.

To the contrary. After you decide to form the Pact and you choose Trahearne to lead it; the first mission has you deciding the tactics for retaking Claw Island and Trahearne agreeing to them. The NPCs that offer victory dialogue thank you and Trahearne. Trahearne repeats that he needs you by his side to keep the orders unified. Trahearne offers his doubts about reclaiming Orr and you give him hope.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution#Dialogue

In Forging the Pact, no one is bowing down to Trahearne. The point of this mission actually to convince the orders that Trahearne can lead them as they all have doubts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact#Dialogues

I could go on and look into every mission dialogue for you, but I think your should do your own homework. I think you’ll find that Trahearne gives a lot of credit to the player and that this is mostly a story about you supporting Trahearne through his Wyld Hunt. It is not your Wyld Hunt, but you play an important role in it.

There are problems with Trahearne. His introduction for most players is without much precedent, as is the case with many other plot elements (e.g., only some Auran players learn about Professor Gorr’s theory that is largely dropped into other player’s laps when it becomes necessary). He also has a very unemotional voice actor, which can be more than irritating when certain lines need to be delivered with emotion. This could be because of the writing or the actor, I’m not sure which.

Odd. The icon on the forums indicates a dev post. There is no dev post. The dev post is a lie.

Anyways, I don’t hate him. But he was poorly put into non-sylvari storylines. And for sylvari, the “meeting Trahearne again” cinematics being separate mechanically rather than replacing the mentor’s seeing Trahearne is… bleh. Because it goes “You: Trahearne! Good to see you!” (new cinematic) “Mentor: Trahearne! Good to see you! This is my new student.”

He doesn’t really take the spotlight. Everyone – Trahearne included – refers to your decision. You make the plans still. You put Trahearne as Marshal. You chose how to invade Orr. You are the one to take down Zhaitan with Destiny’s Edge – not Trahearne. Him taking the spotlight is an optical allusion. He takes a role of responsibility so that the player can remain not being bound by paperwork, negotiations, and other boring as hell economic crap.

SirMoogie.9263:

mythil.9416:

He turns up half way through the story and totally takes the spotlight from you.

He turns up at various points in time based on character race. His first appearance for most players is Claw Island. He is introduced as someone well known by your mentor as a scholar of Orr. He is there for the very same reason you and your mentor are there, as he acknowledges. He then asks for your permission to accompany you. This is hardly taking charge.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Battle_of_Claw_Island#Dialogues

In the follow up mission he says some variation of, “[Player’s mentor’s] sacrifice held them back, but it was your bravery that led us to safety, my friend. I am grateful to you.”

You and Trahearne, at his request, seek help from the Pale Tree. This mission is largely about Orr, Trahearne, and his lack of confidence in being a general. Both Trahearne and the Pale Tree treat you as the player as important to reclaiming Orr. If anyone is stealing the spotlight at this point it’s that Avatar of the Pale Tree. Always building up Trahearne when he’s down and showing visions of your destiny.

The following mission has you saving your order. At the end you propose to form The Pact alliance, not Trahearne; and Trahearne agrees to follow whatever your plan might be.

Trahearne’s introduction, to most players, isn’t remarkably different from other NPCs that aid the player. It is hardly spotlight grabbing.

Everyone starts bowing down to him and following everything he does and all you have is his dirty work to do. He totally removes the feeling of being the spotlight of the story, the hero and the driving force in change and it comes out of nowhere.

To the contrary. After you decide to form the Pact and you choose Trahearne to lead it; the first mission has you deciding the tactics for retaking Claw Island and Trahearne agreeing to them. The NPCs that offer victory dialogue thank you and Trahearne. Trahearne repeats that he needs you by his side to keep the orders unified. Trahearne offers his doubts about reclaiming Orr and you give him hope.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution#Dialogue

In Forging the Pact, no one is bowing down to Trahearne. The point of this mission actually to convince the orders that Trahearne can lead them as they all have doubts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact#Dialogues

I could go on and look into every mission dialogue for you, but I think your should do your own homework. I think you’ll find that Trahearne gives a lot of credit to the player and that this is mostly a story about you supporting Trahearne through his Wyld Hunt. It is not your Wyld Hunt, but you play an important role in it.

There are problems with Trahearne. His introduction for most players is without much precedent, as is the case with many other plot elements (e.g., only some Auran players learn about Professor Gorr’s theory that is largely dropped into other player’s laps when it becomes necessary). He also has a very unemotional voice actor, which can be more than irritating when certain lines need to be delivered with emotion. This could be because of the writing or the actor, I’m not sure which.

1) You are pretty much forced into letting him lead as there are no other options
2) Just dumping a character in and everyone saying “Hay that guy he’s so awesome” is not weaving him into the narrative
3) He is very annoying, just mopes around and makes you do all the actual work while he soaks up the glory.

Really there is no reason for him to be in the story at all. Personally I want my character to the hero, the head of everything, the one giving the big speeches and so forth but no. The story writer instead of keeping to the way it should have been (you being the hero and the driving force) instead kept you in the background doing the work because she loves Sylvari so much. It’s just bad storytelling.

NO. Rather tired of hearing this. Copy pasted my response from an earlier thread:

“I had no problems with Trahearne “stealing the limelight,” as it were. I never understood the hatred people had over this for Kormir either. This is an MMO where the character is a blank slate; clearly the player couldn’t take Abbadon’s place. Someone had to step up to the mantle of godhood, and it had to be an NPC, so why hate that NPC? Similarly, someone other than the player character had to lead the Pact.

My problem with Trahearne is that the role he filled would have been much better suited for Destiny’s Edge. We spend the first chunk of the game with members of DE and then they suddenly disappear. The Pact needs a leader and instead of them we get this sylvari with a dull personality that no one connects with. Trahearne could have still been around and still been at the front of cleansing Orr, but DE actually has leadership and dragon-fighting experience. Not putting them at the head of the Pact was a serious mistake."

As someone who went through the sylvari storyline first, I’d like to go on the record as saying that he’s not at all that bad coming from that perspective. He comes into your story rather naturally at the start of the second chapter, plays as big a part as Caithe in the second and third chapters (which is a nice contrast to how the other races use their member of DE as a crutch), and when he shows up on Claw Island it’s a pleasant fulfillment of the promise made when you part ways at the end of the third chapter. As a sylvari, I actually thought at the end that I wish more NPCs had had the consistent involvement that Trahearne had.

I think the problem most people have with him is threefold: A.) coming from any other race, and so seen bereft of the proper perspective, Trahearne feels like an unwelcome usurper, butting in during the very mission the order mentor (and all three are popularly held to be the best characters of the PS) dies and stepping straightaway into their shoes, and holding the position longer than either of the preceding characters; B.) no matter how much credit Trahearne tries to give your character, it feels like nothing more than lipservice, since the story consistently gives him all the tangible rewards, and even the player character is written to constantly build Trahearne up; and C.) as mentioned already, among the plethora of voiced lines that don’t quite fit right, Trahearne’s consistently stand out as being the most off.

All in all, I think the character is enjoyable, and one of the PS’ best, but the story itself constantly maneuvers him to step on the player’s toes.

mythil.9416:

1) You are pretty much forced into letting him lead as there are no other options

That is a criticism about them not writing some arbitrary number of choices of whom the player can pick as Pact leader, not a criticism of Trahearne’s character.

2) Just dumping a character in and everyone saying “Hay that guy he’s so awesome” is not weaving him into the narrative

As pointed out you are mistaken on the everyone thinking Trahearne is awesome. As for dumping him into the narrative, I agree that was poor storytelling. This is a criticism of their choice to introduce characters and facts necessary to understanding the plot in branches of the story players will never see unless they made those choices. There are numerous examples of this, it is not unique to Trahearne.

3) He is very annoying, just mopes around and makes you do all the actual work while he soaks up the glory.

As pointed out he doesn’t just absorb the glory. He continuously reminds you how important you are. As do other NPCs. If you aren’t going to point to specific examples demonstrating your point, as I did; you’re wasting everyone’s time.

mythil.9416:

1) You are pretty much forced into letting him lead as there are no other options
2) Just dumping a character in and everyone saying “Hay that guy he’s so awesome” is not weaving him into the narrative
3) He is very annoying, just mopes around and makes you do all the actual work while he soaks up the glory.

Really there is no reason for him to be in the story at all. Personally I want my character to the hero, the head of everything, the one giving the big speeches and so forth but no. The story writer instead of keeping to the way it should have been (you being the hero and the driving force) instead kept you in the background doing the work because she loves Sylvari so much. It’s just bad storytelling.

1) You’re pretty much forced to go after Zhaitan. There are no other options, like going after Jormag despite the fact that if you’re a norn/Priory who helps out the grawl or Quaggan, you not once fight non-Icebrood dragon minions in your personal story until Claw Island.

Oh, and you’re pretty much forced to be the good guy. And you’re pretty much forced to be mentored by someone from Destiny’s Edge. And you’re pretty much forced to aid the Seraph if you’re human. And you’re pretty much forced to stop Scarlet and not join her. And you’re pretty much forced to be hated by every enemy no matter what. And you’re pretty much forced to aid the Lionguard when Zhaitan attacks. And you’re pretty much forced not to kill Rox Kawaiistone… Bug eye creeper.

That’s an argument against lack of multiple choices, not against Trahearne.

2) Without watching us see the rise to power, anyone in power will be introduced into the narrative as ‘dumping a character in and everyone saying "Hay that guy he’s so awesome"’ Jennah can easily be argued to be the same as this argument. So is every Elder Dragon. So is Forgal. So is Seiran. So is all of Destiny’s Edge (presuming you don’t read Edge of Destiny first, which is how they wrote the game to be like). This isn’t an issue on Trahearne’s character, though they could have introduced him better to non-sylvari.

3) Except that he doesn’t make you do all the work, and he doesn’t soak up all the glory. Stop exaggerating. And while he does mope a good deal, this is part of his character development and not really a bad thing about him – it’s his own personal challenge to overcome within himself, a very common narrative plot. It’s called “conflict against the self” (or “Man versus Self”) – the other two common narratives being “Man versus Man” and “Man versus Nature.”

I dislike a lot of the personal story as it makes your character play second fiddle to some random NPC. That does happen a lot in MMOs though.

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

Lasica.5068:

I dislike a lot of the personal story as it makes your character play second fiddle to some random NPC. That does happen a lot in MMOs though.

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

Pretty much this. People would rather defend Trahearne even though he is terribly written, terribly put into the story and if you are any other race other than the Sylvari it makes no sense whatsoever.

I don’t want to launch a personal attack on the writer(s) or anything but it’s very much publicly obvious they want to do more with the Sylvari and just brush off the other races, that’s what’s frustrating too.

Personally, I don’t like him. None of the people I play with like him. I’ve show people the entire story who don’t play the game and they admit it’s just bad. If you like him then fine, but I really don’t. Despite what he does or doesn’t do the way he’s introduced to anyone who’s not Sylvari makes you FEEL like he’s pretty much the plot usurper

Mythil, all of your specific arguments have been about the personal story, not Trahearne.

You’re projecting – hating on something when you hate something else.

As a person who is *very *critical of stories and equally so of ArenaNet’s direction of lore lately, I will say this with ease:

The only issue Trahearne himself has is his voice actor. The other issues people blame Trahearne for is an issue of the Personal Story and more importantly how ArenaNet advertised Guild Wars 2. Let’s be honest with ourselves, look at all the advertisements and the manifesto trailer and all the promises for what the game would be. Now look at the game. Do those look like the same thing beyond the title to you? Because they don’t to me.

And I believe it is that which people hate. But they don’t realize it so they blame Trahearne or whatnot.

You’re promised a personal story, a story for you. Where you become the big hero. We get a story where you’re the big hero who acts equal to everyone else, who’s praised as much as everyone else, with very limited choices and personal interaction. And you see the issue as being Trahearn, when it’s the whole of the personal story. And open world. And dungeons.

I love GW’s lore but even I’m honest enough to say that I’ve long since learned never to believe ArenaNet’s promises of what the game will play like in their advertisements. Makes me wonder if the people who make said advertisements even play the game or if they just listen to what the developers are aiming for.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mythil, all of your specific arguments have been about the personal story, not Trahearne.

You’re projecting – hating on something when you hate something else.

As a person who is *very *critical of stories and equally so of ArenaNet’s direction of lore lately, I will say this with ease:

The only issue Trahearne himself has is his voice actor. The other issues people blame Trahearne for is an issue of the Personal Story and more importantly how ArenaNet advertised Guild Wars 2. Let’s be honest with ourselves, look at all the advertisements and the manifesto trailer and all the promises for what the game would be. Now look at the game. Do those look like the same thing beyond the title to you? Because they don’t to me.

And I believe it is that which people hate. But they don’t realize it so they blame Trahearne or whatnot.

You’re promised a personal story, a story for you. Where you become the big hero. We get a story where you’re the big hero who acts equal to everyone else, who’s praised as much as everyone else, with very limited choices and personal interaction. And you see the issue as being Trahearn, when it’s the whole of the personal story. And open world. And dungeons.

I love GW’s lore but even I’m honest enough to say that I’ve long since learned never to believe ArenaNet’s promises of what the game will play like in their advertisements. Makes me wonder if the people who make said advertisements even play the game or if they just listen to what the developers are aiming for.

That is quite possible (though I still don’t like him as a character. To me he comes of as both smug and insecure and I’m supposed to follow this guy? Aren’t I the hero?) So yes your argument does make sense even though I still don’t like the character (personally).

Secondly as I said before (and from interviews that are online) the “loremaster” wants to work more on Sylvari. Why? They already have more than any other race and yet they are boring (to me anyway, remember this is all a subjective personal opinion).

Thirdly, I like the Charr, I really like them. Their lore, history, character and society and I really liked rising through the ranks of the Charr, proving my worth. Same with the orders but less so but I was okay with that, I’m furthering myself and the plot.

Then they pull the switcharoo and it was so jarring that I can’t play the story mission again past claw Island.

It might be to the fact that the player character doesn’t speak during the personal story when in combat like Trahearne does when giving out orders, so it makes you feel like all the other soldiers and less important then him and only after when no ones around he goes, “well i couldn’t have done it without you” or something along those lines.

I actually don’t really like Trehearne too, but only for the reason that he, as a necromancer can wield a greatsword.

Actually on the topic of Trehearne and his necromancy, if he is so good that he can summon 4 flesh golems and we can only summon one, then how come he is so weak? Also why doesn’t he have at least 1 flesh golem with him in every story instance i mean 1 should take hardly any effort to bring out and you just don’t forget how to summon minions.

Also if i can remember correctly doesn’t Trehearne obtains guardian skills when he gets his greatsword? So does Trehearne just randomly drop his necromancy powers and become a guardian in mere seconds or is he from gw1 and has the ability of double proffesion?

(i know about game limits and design, but if i actually got a reason other than, “because that would break the game” that would be great)

As far as Trahearne’s skills go, it’s because of the sword. The sylvari are made to wield it during a personal story quest, and it replaces a class’ standard weapon skills with a hodge-podge of other skills- the guardian spin, the mesmer knockback, the warrior hammer knockdown, the air ele staff bouncing projectile… it’s a mess. So Trahearne himself isn’t changing professions or secondary professioning, the sword just sucks.

Invisible dev-post wut.

But to throw in my 2 cents-text wall, I don’t hate Trahearne. Neither the spot-light stealing nor his personality.

I hate the garbled flow (or lack thereof) of the Personal Story that led to mediocre and poor presentation of character-development.
And with that what I hate more is the suspension of disbelief that builds up after Claw Island.

I did Norn/Vigil first and several alts later Sylvari/Priory recently.

Lets see, my legend-seeking Norn is now a Vigil and Forgal’s right-hand. Then there’s this Sylvari-scholar and apparently he’s an expert on Orr, alright. Although the PS shoves at your face how little the orders trust and can stand each other before Claw Island, Forgal speaks of this ‘bookworm’ in high tones. Something that already irks my Norn who had a difficult time proving himself to the battle-torn Forgal. Inbefore I know it, Forgal goes out in a kitten way like every good old military mentor must and we flee the island.
I barely know this scholar but instantly he decides to stick with me and follow me around because we share the same enemy. Okay.

Then there’s my Sylvari, he was introduced to Trahearne before and Sieran knowing and respecting him, both due to him being a firstborn and a known Scholar makes 100% sense. Trahearne having ties to the Priory makes sense and he even recognizes me as the Herald, at least for the first half of the mission. That a firstborn accompanies my Sylvari makes sense and if anything, my Sylvari would see it as an honor.

Aight, so that second part sounds real sound and nice, no? Actually really good flow, yes? Best possible scenario. So it can only get better?

Nah.
I can take Trahearne’s appointment to Pact-leader with a groaned ‘alright guess no other somewhat-established NPC would make sense, he knows about Orr more than anyone so that’s a thing’. Personally I can also look past the whole Caladbolg and “timid Scholar to General attempt at character development” stuff.

The domino-row of questionable things that bother me and start tumbling in retrospective are these ones:

So you meet the Tengu Izu Steelstrike who’s sworn friendship with Trahearne years ago when battling Risen. Nevermind that Trahearne expressed before that he rarely engages with Risen and prefers to avoid them, somehow he bonded with a, if not the only single travelling Tengu-Smith we’ve seen.

Following an even more extreme line of that, next we got Sayeh, aka the Lagos from the PS. Not only did Trahearne ever meet a Lagos, no she also declares that she owes him because they fought Risen off as tag-team on sea.

Then you have Trahearne’s multiple flesh-golems deal which seems strange but hey he’s apparently a learned Necromancer also gameplay-story segregation. That’s only awkward and a little bothersome but later on becomes a tad ridiculous when you meet a NPC in Fort Trinity who outright states that Trahearne is the most powerful Necromancer in all of /Tyria./

Okay, he’s not only had ties with a military organization that doesn’t think highly of Scholars, a SECRET SOCIETY (???), and the Priory (which makes the most sense of those three), he’s also possibly the first Sylvari (unless the pale tree had an older daughter) and he’s the best Necromancer in Tyria and he has the hardest known Wyld hunt of them all which gets shoved at you constantly and he also ends up becoming head of the Pact. Also he’s become friend with a travelling Tengu of which the vast majority live isolated in the Dominion so we barely ever meet any and he met a Lagos who ended up feeling indebted to him.

I can live with timid-scholar Trahearne as character, really.

But looking at the story and how from Claw-Island on Trahearne’s ‘special accomplishments’ sky-rocket in a way that makes it seem extremely shoehorned coupled with a horrible introduction makes the sentiment of dislike understandable.
I don’t mind him being the pact-leader but the “story about you” with Trahearne leading is probably already the breaking point for many others.

As comparison, lets take Caithe who’s also a special snowflake being a firstborn, got a special wyld hunt, fought a dragon before in a famous guild and is constantly hinted at by NPCs to be a remarkable Thief. And she also has ties to all of the 3 orders.
No one cares about Caithe. For one, her status is already established by the beginning so it can’t seem to come out of the ‘blue’. The other thing I guess is that she’s never more than the mentor.

Tho with this discussion, I gotta say it’s interesting to see what makes and breaks a character for others.

You know, Elysian, I’d never even thought of it like that. And you’re right. To add one more to your list, that secret society thing? He knows the identity of the leader, something very few even in that organization know, because he just so happened to be there to take down the old leader when he was corrupted, and she just so happened to trust this strange outsider to help with that.

I may have to rethink my position.

Hi there, everyone! New around these parts just returning to gw2 after only “trying it out” during it’s release.

With that out of the way, my issue with Traeherne as well as other NPC’s in the personal storyline is just how they appear then vanish so sporadically. Take for example the charr storyline, where you are told your and your surviving band mate have been together since your early days in the fahrar. You and this NPC work extremely hard to put your warband back together, picking up new members who don’t say or do much of anything from what I’ve see, and then poof the just vanish seemingly altogether.

What I’m getting at here, and I haven’t finished my charr mesmer’s PS as yet because after the Order chapter I lose all interest, is that I would take a wild guess that Reeva, for me, only shows up at the very end as a slight cameo. Here’s a character that I firmly believe should and could of been with us for a lot longer than they did and really help push the idea of it being a ‘personal story’.

Traeherne (however you spell it) in my eyes just over shadows the other npcs who were, for your character, just as important if not more important to you.

But once again I’m technically “new” still and enjoying the lore overall. Just wish my krewe mates on my main and Reeva on my charr actually stuck around longer in the story.

Bit of a spoiler, since I think that there’s no good from high expectations- there is no cameo. After you hit Lion’s Arch your surviving warband member becomes a permanently silent part of the scenery of your home instance. (Although, there’s a one in six chance of your krewe coming back at a later point.)

I do agree with you 100% though- the greatest weakness of the personal story, imo, is that there’s no attempt to maintain character continuity throughout the whole. All non-mentor characters last four or five quests at best, and while a good amount do return, their peppersprayed throughout in such a way that unless you have the foreknowledge and will to bend the story towards a certain quest, you’ll most likely never see anyone you know again. That’s why I touched on Trahearne- he’s the only character from the sylvari portions of my personal story that stuck around. I don’t think it’s a problem that he overshadows others- I think the others should have been brought up to his standard.

mythil.9416:

To me he comes of as both smug and insecure and I’m supposed to follow this guy? Aren’t I the hero?) So yes your argument does make sense even though I still don’t like the character (personally).

There is nothing smug about Trahearne… Even though he actually has every right to be given how much respect he’s given by the three Orders for his expertise on Orr.

I’ve only just reached the Battle of Claw Island in my personal story. I honestly don’t get the “his voice is so unemotional” complaint about Trahearne; he DOES have inflections and moods. It’s just more subdued.

Deputy Mira sounds much more unconcerned to my ears, like she’s reading off a script. :P

I used to dislike him very strongly, not due to him “stealing the spotlight,” but rather, his utter failed potential as a character and the awkward handling of his writing. His voice not having the best inflection, and inappropriate emotions for the wrong scenes doesn’t help those things. I don’t exactly particularly like him much now, but..

Scarlet has certainly put things into perspective.

Egon Vidar.9125:

Scarlet has certainly put things into perspective.

That the entire race needs to be fed to the Centaurs?

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Yes. kitten story-stealer

I find it strange people hold Trahearne accountable for this yet people don’t raise the same point as often when it comes to Marjory, Kasmeer, Braham, Rox and Kiel. At least Trahearne constantly engaged the player and we held important positions in the Personal Story (and made all the big calls). In the Living Story the core cast are constantly taking center stage and taking all the credit while the player character is barely engaged at all.

To be fair, my involvement in the Living Story these past few months can basically be summed up as “running around with a zerg, and dying anyways”. Unlike in GW1, having bad luck isn’t considered worthy of titles.

Also, there really haven’t been any big decisions to make. Scarlet has always been the one to dictate the terms of the fight. Rox and company are just reacting to that, no different then us players.

mythil.9416:

Lasica.5068:

I dislike a lot of the personal story as it makes your character play second fiddle to some random NPC. That does happen a lot in MMOs though.

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

Pretty much this. People would rather defend Trahearne even though he is terribly written, terribly put into the story and if you are any other race other than the Sylvari it makes no sense whatsoever.

I’d rather defend Traherne because he’s not the problem, he’s a symptom of the problem.

He’s not poorly written more so than other parts of the personal story, such as a moment when Forgal or Tybalt at the end of a chapter of the Personal Story basically break down going “how can we fight the dragons when they’re so powerful?!” and don’t talk about it later.

Logan is handled unevenly throughout the first three chapters of the human personal story and later encounters. Seriously, his behavior during my human commoner’s story does not match his behavior in Minister Caudecus’ Estate and when meeting Rytlock again in Lion’s Arch/Twilight Arbor.

Certain NPCs don’t recognize when they resurface you even though they should. Crusader Deborah is Tobias’ sister but she has no clue who he is when I meet her again in Orr.

Traherne’s rapid integration is a symptom of the issue – the Personal Story seems to have been written by several different teams and nobody proofread the final product.

I don’t want to launch a personal attack on the writer(s) or anything but it’s very much publicly obvious they want to do more with the Sylvari and just brush off the other races, that’s what’s frustrating too.

Really?

The asura are completely the go-to people for technology, the charr make fantastic war machines (and “ghostfire”), but really it’s more noticeable how humanity does not offer much other than the will to stand against the supposedly-inevitable.

The sylvari aren’t perfect, and are a joke in some instances. Heck, commoners in Lion’s Arch almost chat about taking advantage of the fact a sylvari craftsperson can be counted on to make things cheap and well due to not knowing the value of their work. Sieran doesn’t understand danger to herself and others. And the Order of Whispers does not employ sylvari in highly sensitive jobs because they suck at keeping secrets . . . secret.

Personally, I don’t like him. None of the people I play with like him. I’ve show people the entire story who don’t play the game and they admit it’s just bad. If you like him then fine, but I really don’t. Despite what he does or doesn’t do the way he’s introduced to anyone who’s not Sylvari makes you FEEL like he’s pretty much the plot usurper

No, I never felt that way. I felt Zojja needed to get thrown overboard after killing Zhaitan. “Waypoint back up, Zojja. The bookah strikes back!”

BobbyStein.2315:

Lasica.5068:

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

That’s certainly what we’re trying to do. Over time, you should notice a shift in how the characters refer to you and how your role evolves.

That is very reasuring.
I hope you are able to realize what “old school” rpgs were doing. Looking back at all the Pen&Paper inspired games, where your “party” had personalities, fears and hopes. Things you had to earn, instead of getting them delivered to you.

Right now the “story” is pretty much a line. You get certain informations at certain points, regardless of what you have done.

If you manage to change that. Make your “choices” along the way count. Then i will be really happy.

(that you hinted of the involvement of the PC speaking again is also a good thing)

BobbyStein.2315:

Lasica.5068:

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

That’s certainly what we’re trying to do. Over time, you should notice a shift in how the characters refer to you and how your role evolves.

while i do see that you’re trying to push our character into a lead role more while developing everyone around him, it would be nice if it didn’t feel like we were so much of a passive agent on their relationships. it’s not rox, braham and i. it’s just rox and braham, and occasionally they call me to party up.

the lion’s arch instance demonstrated this quite well. we were basically a third wheel in every single conversation in there, and once everyone was done talking, we’d have the option to go in and be like “hey how’s it going?”.

i know there are a bunch of issues with giving the player character voice in these releases, but it would be really, really good for the character’s development if we had a more active role during the conversations, instead of only talking with characters one by one after the important, plot progressing conversation ended.

BobbyStein.2315:

Lasica.5068:

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

That’s certainly what we’re trying to do. Over time, you should notice a shift in how the characters refer to you and how your role evolves.

Well that sucks. One of the things I loved about the personal story was that the character player wasn’t the star of the show. Every single game seems to revolve around the player character coming in and fixing everything, what made gw2 different was that the player was only assisting the hero (Trahearne). It made the world seem like it could function without the character and that everybody is to some degree competent and not just the player character.

The main problem I see with Trahearne is that he is the hero in what was called “personal story”, you guys should have just name the main story, “campaign”.

BobbyStein.2315:

Lasica.5068:

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

That’s certainly what we’re trying to do. Over time, you should notice a shift in how the characters refer to you and how your role evolves.

Is that supposed to be describing the past, present or future?
Haven’t really gotten that in the past nor getting that in the present. Actually the latest installment seems like a headless blob with no leader. A bit like a dungeon run with a PUG.

Overall my characters have been silent witnesses to a series of events. Sure they’ve been involved in various fights and what not but it doesn’t feel like they’ve ever made a difference. The result is that any time an NPC decides to praise my character it feels like a pile of lies and I am not a fan of liars.

BobbyStein.2315:

Jaken.6801:

That is very reasuring.
I hope you are able to realize what “old school” rpgs were doing. Looking back at all the Pen&Paper inspired games, where your “party” had personalities, fears and hopes. Things you had to earn, instead of getting them delivered to you.

Right now the “story” is pretty much a line. You get certain informations at certain points, regardless of what you have done.

If you manage to change that. Make your “choices” along the way count. Then i will be really happy.

(that you hinted of the involvement of the PC speaking again is also a good thing)

Agreed. While there are certainly some constraints and challenges in doing heavy “party RP” systems in our game, we’re looking at ways to evolve our tech and also our writing of character development such that you get to know these NPCs better and that your choices have a noticeable effect. We’re not where I’d like to be just yet, but we’re planning to try some new things over time.

I know it’s out of context to the thread topic, but do you have plans to use the personality system already in game? It’s already used on a couple of occasions, but having it used a bit more would be awesome.

BobbyStein.2315:

Jaken.6801:

If you manage to change that. Make your “choices” along the way count. Then i will be really happy.

Agreed. While there are certainly some constraints and challenges in doing heavy “party RP” systems in our game, we’re looking at ways to evolve our tech and also our writing of character development such that you get to know these NPCs better and that your choices have a noticeable effect. We’re not where I’d like to be just yet, but we’re planning to try some new things over time.

I would really like to see some impact on our non-voiced, text response choices based on Personality. It’s one of the things the game already tracks about our choices and could be referenced in the LS with existing tech.

Referencing Race in dialogue seems to be possible (some NPCs do it now). Having Braham act a little chilly towards a Norn Player (his mother’s new protégé, that has to burn…) or Rox commiserating a little extra with Charr players about her struggle to join a prestigious Warband.

We also know the game can have hidden dialogue branches that are only exposed if you have a particular profession (e.g. Rytlock’s aide will talk about companions with Ranger players). This is a gold mine for Rox to talk shop about care and feeding of Frostbite with a fellow Ranger or Taimi to have a whole technobabble spiel she’ll only share with an Engineer .

My first character tolerated Trahearne ‘til the end. Every character after that I can not make it much past his joining. His "This won’t end well." monotone complaining just makes me want to punch my computer. I feel like I am dragging a whiney child through a grocery store. If I could only leave him with a sitter and continue my story, I’d be happy.

Lasica.5068:

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

I didn’t get that impression, can you tell me why you think we are taking the lead? It always seems to me like we are following the cast around, not the other way round. When we do accomplish something, the cast gets praise and the player seems to be forgotten. Look at Kiels recognition for Southsun (both in capturing Canache and solving the contract issue) and then her recognition for Sky Pirates. Now we have Rox getting praise for killing Tequatl but no recognition that we did that. When Marjory and Kasmeer were poking fun at Rox and Braham for letting Scarlet slip through their fingers, I wondered why they didn’t include the player.

The Personal Story usually had a debrief every 10 levels where you finished up that chapter of it and discussed what you did with the big wigs. I feel like that’s missing from Living Story – I want Logan and Rytlock to talk to me, not Rox and Braham.

I did notice subtle things like Braham saying mid fight with the marionette “I won’t give up if you don’t give up!” and Kasmeer says something similar. If nothing else, it was nice to be recognized by them, but when the post fight scene doesn’t include me and the story instance in LA doesn’t include me, it doesn’t feel like I’m part of the story. It feels like I’m watching their story (I get this is the Living Story and not the Personal Story). There are just trickles of recognition in the text chat from Braham and Rox, but I’d like to see more, especially if Scarlet is supposed to be viewed as a personal nemesis (it doesn’t feel personal to me).

Getting the player character voice actors back is something I look forward to a great deal. I really enjoyed side characters in GW1 (the heroes of Nightfall and EotN had some really engaging stories imo) and I was always happy to see the core henchmen pop up, even if they had almost nothing to do with the story, but I still like to have my character engaged. One of the neat things about GW1 side characters is that the cast was so large yet it never felt like the story became about them. Their stories mattered, but there was always a bigger picture.

He was pretty much universally hated with hundreds of posts about it after release. People jut don’t talk about him much now that most are done with the personal story and moved on to hating Scarlet.

But yea he’s pretty bad, and him being the leader of the pact is not the issue, he could have remained in a tactical/management role with the player moving the story forward while he does the boring coordination and leading thing in the background. Instead we had a mission where he has to prove that he is also an amazing warrior and not just a scholar… and the end of that mission frames it as his victory even though he spend most of the mission downed. :p

A particular point against him that sticks out to me is in one of the story paths where your character becomes the target of an attack, after which Trahearne says something along the lines of “Clearly, they attacked you to get at me, the true target”, when that would have been a great opportunity for him to acknowledge that while he is the leader of the pact the player character is crucial to their success.

Also if you play a sylvari guardian with certain story paths he totally steals your sword!

On the other hand Destiny’s Edge and the story dungeons did it right, the NPC’s acknowledge and recognize the player, in the last Caithe even outright says that it’s you who brought them all together again. And in the ending cut scene you walk with them center, like you are one of them, kind of like an unofficial member of Destiny’s Edge, and it’s clear you took Zhaitan down together.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And the Order of Whispers does not employ sylvari in highly sensitive jobs because they suck at keeping secrets . . . secret.

This is off topic, but what? There’s no sign of any such discrimination. Heck, the sylvari Preceptor is in charge of handling the entirety of the Order’s information and analysis departments. It doesn’t get more sensitive than that.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And the Order of Whispers does not employ sylvari in highly sensitive jobs because they suck at keeping secrets . . . secret.

This is off topic, but what? There’s no sign of any such discrimination. Heck, the sylvari Preceptor is in charge of handling the entirety of the Order’s information and analysis departments. It doesn’t get more sensitive than that.

Probably referring to the fact that sylvari have a shared memory via their dream.

He’s no Kormir. 250 years later, I’m still bitter. :X

I don’t hate him that much really, he’s just a bit too dry and pops out of nowhere if you aren’t a sylvari. If he was going to be our buddy, I think he needed to show up earlier, maybe someone often referred to by the orders for Zhaitan info. I don’t really know how I’d do it.

He does seem to have some game for a twiggy bookworm. All those lady friends of his…. I can’t hate on that. He ain’t no Mhenlo though…

BobbyStein.2315:

Lasica.5068:

The Living Story seems better because while it has a group of NPCs involved in it they don’t take a lead role. It is your character taking the lead still.

That’s certainly what we’re trying to do. Over time, you should notice a shift in how the characters refer to you and how your role evolves.

I hope so. I appreciated the last instance in the Tower of Nightmares for the cutscene inclusion of the PC speaking with Marjory and Kasmeer, and I felt that was a good step forward. Although, keep in mind, it’s a bit alarming that a simple camera pan around my character conversing with two NPCs was actually notable as far as PC inclusion. That kind of thing should be the standard, something we don’t even notice.

But anyway, the story instance in Lion’s Arch most recently, I’ve felt has been yet another step back. When Rytlock asks Rox if she slayed Tequatl, and she just responds with an affirmative, I’m just like, “Uh…hello? Guys? Right here.”

On a somewhat unrelated note, what are your thoughts on our characters’ current position within the world as Commander of the Pact? Do you find that makes things more challenging, or easier from a writing perspective? For me, after everything sunk in, I was kind of disappointed with how that went down. I’m not even thrilled about being a member of one of the Orders. I think we’re at our best and have the most freedom available to us when we’re just playing that heroic adventurer who’s always in the right place at the right time. Sticking us in an Order, and even worse, Commander of the biggest multiracial organization in Tyria, seems like it’s severely limiting the believability of a lot of the story with what our characters are getting involved in now. I’m honestly hoping some kind of catastrophic event destroys the Pact and dumps us back down to adventurer status.

Shinzan.2908:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And the Order of Whispers does not employ sylvari in highly sensitive jobs because they suck at keeping secrets . . . secret.

This is off topic, but what? There’s no sign of any such discrimination. Heck, the sylvari Preceptor is in charge of handling the entirety of the Order’s information and analysis departments. It doesn’t get more sensitive than that.

Probably referring to the fact that sylvari have a shared memory via their dream.

Referring to an offhand comment made over in the Grove’s rather open recruiting station for the Order of Whispers. This is the perception I gathered – they do not approach the sylvari with any clandestine mannerisms, and they use them for various things . . .

. . . but the spokesperson for the leadership is human and I’d hazard a strong guess the Master is as well.

Iirc, Doern was actually the spokesman because he was the only Preceptor who wasn’t needed to help clean up the mess after the Risen attack- the Chantry of Secrets took a lot more damage than Vigil Keep or the Durmand Priory. So he was there because at that moment, he was the least important.

EDIT: Found it! “I need Halvora and Valenze to rebuild the Chantry’s defenses and intelligence files. Doern and I will pick agents for this new union.” That’s from the Master of Whispers, whom I shall leave nameless for your sake.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Iirc, Doern was actually the spokesman because he was the only Preceptor who wasn’t needed to help clean up the mess after the Risen attack- the Chantry of Secrets took a lot more damage than Vigil Keep or the Durmand Priory. So he was there because at that moment, he was the least important.

This is what the Order wants you to think

BobbyStein.2315:

Agreed. While there are certainly some constraints and challenges in doing heavy “party RP” systems in our game, we’re looking at ways to evolve our tech and also our writing of character development such that you get to know these NPCs better and that your choices have a noticeable effect. We’re not where I’d like to be just yet, but we’re planning to try some new things over time.

I must say I’m rather biased here, I’m a decent player but not hardcore-elite, and I’ve always placed far more value in the experience of player (leaning more to the story then the mechanics). Minor issues mechanically is fine by me as long as there is a good story to keep me entertained and engaged. However I guess there’s a lot of other people that would prefer you rather just fix bugs and balance issues all day (the sort of things I never notice).

So group RP would be nice (for me), having my personality (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personality) impact more than a couple of dialog options etc. Maybe some of the iconics react negatively to you if you’re a Barbaric, maybe if you walk down the street some NPC mentioned that Charming ranger (your PC).

Maybe we can even have some repeatable events-chains, go hunting with Braham, help Rox with training etc. which would be a good opportunity to reveal less important but character building information (i.e. we go pig hunting with Braham and he reveals to us where his love of bacon came from. Trahaerne can tell us why he constantly speaks in a creepy monotone etc.).

SirMoogie.9263:

mythil.9416:

He turns up half way through the story and totally takes the spotlight from you.

He turns up at various points in time based on character race. His first appearance for most players is Claw Island. He is introduced as someone well known by your mentor as a scholar of Orr. He is there for the very same reason you and your mentor are there, as he acknowledges. He then asks for your permission to accompany you. This is hardly taking charge.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Battle_of_Claw_Island#Dialogues

In the follow up mission he says some variation of, “[Player’s mentor’s] sacrifice held them back, but it was your bravery that led us to safety, my friend. I am grateful to you.”

You and Trahearne, at his request, seek help from the Pale Tree. This mission is largely about Orr, Trahearne, and his lack of confidence in being a general. Both Trahearne and the Pale Tree treat you as the player as important to reclaiming Orr. If anyone is stealing the spotlight at this point it’s that Avatar of the Pale Tree. Always building up Trahearne when he’s down and showing visions of your destiny.

The following mission has you saving your order. At the end you propose to form The Pact alliance, not Trahearne; and Trahearne agrees to follow whatever your plan might be.

Trahearne’s introduction, to most players, isn’t remarkably different from other NPCs that aid the player. It is hardly spotlight grabbing.

Everyone starts bowing down to him and following everything he does and all you have is his dirty work to do. He totally removes the feeling of being the spotlight of the story, the hero and the driving force in change and it comes out of nowhere.

To the contrary. After you decide to form the Pact and you choose Trahearne to lead it; the first mission has you deciding the tactics for retaking Claw Island and Trahearne agreeing to them. The NPCs that offer victory dialogue thank you and Trahearne. Trahearne repeats that he needs you by his side to keep the orders unified. Trahearne offers his doubts about reclaiming Orr and you give him hope.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution#Dialogue

In Forging the Pact, no one is bowing down to Trahearne. The point of this mission actually to convince the orders that Trahearne can lead them as they all have doubts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact#Dialogues

I could go on and look into every mission dialogue for you, but I think your should do your own homework. I think you’ll find that Trahearne gives a lot of credit to the player and that this is mostly a story about you supporting Trahearne through his Wyld Hunt. It is not your Wyld Hunt, but you play an important role in it.

There are problems with Trahearne. His introduction for most players is without much precedent, as is the case with many other plot elements (e.g., only some Auran players learn about Professor Gorr’s theory that is largely dropped into other player’s laps when it becomes necessary). He also has a very unemotional voice actor, which can be more than irritating when certain lines need to be delivered with emotion. This could be because of the writing or the actor, I’m not sure which.

You, SirMoogie, are awesome.

Zomaarwat.3912:

SirMoogie.9263:

mythil.9416:

He turns up half way through the story and totally takes the spotlight from you.

He turns up at various points in time based on character race. His first appearance for most players is Claw Island. He is introduced as someone well known by your mentor as a scholar of Orr. He is there for the very same reason you and your mentor are there, as he acknowledges. He then asks for your permission to accompany you. This is hardly taking charge.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Battle_of_Claw_Island#Dialogues

In the follow up mission he says some variation of, “[Player’s mentor’s] sacrifice held them back, but it was your bravery that led us to safety, my friend. I am grateful to you.”

You and Trahearne, at his request, seek help from the Pale Tree. This mission is largely about Orr, Trahearne, and his lack of confidence in being a general. Both Trahearne and the Pale Tree treat you as the player as important to reclaiming Orr. If anyone is stealing the spotlight at this point it’s that Avatar of the Pale Tree. Always building up Trahearne when he’s down and showing visions of your destiny.

The following mission has you saving your order. At the end you propose to form The Pact alliance, not Trahearne; and Trahearne agrees to follow whatever your plan might be.

Trahearne’s introduction, to most players, isn’t remarkably different from other NPCs that aid the player. It is hardly spotlight grabbing.

Everyone starts bowing down to him and following everything he does and all you have is his dirty work to do. He totally removes the feeling of being the spotlight of the story, the hero and the driving force in change and it comes out of nowhere.

To the contrary. After you decide to form the Pact and you choose Trahearne to lead it; the first mission has you deciding the tactics for retaking Claw Island and Trahearne agreeing to them. The NPCs that offer victory dialogue thank you and Trahearne. Trahearne repeats that he needs you by his side to keep the orders unified. Trahearne offers his doubts about reclaiming Orr and you give him hope.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution#Dialogue

In Forging the Pact, no one is bowing down to Trahearne. The point of this mission actually to convince the orders that Trahearne can lead them as they all have doubts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact#Dialogues

I could go on and look into every mission dialogue for you, but I think your should do your own homework. I think you’ll find that Trahearne gives a lot of credit to the player and that this is mostly a story about you supporting Trahearne through his Wyld Hunt. It is not your Wyld Hunt, but you play an important role in it.

There are problems with Trahearne. His introduction for most players is without much precedent, as is the case with many other plot elements (e.g., only some Auran players learn about Professor Gorr’s theory that is largely dropped into other player’s laps when it becomes necessary). He also has a very unemotional voice actor, which can be more than irritating when certain lines need to be delivered with emotion. This could be because of the writing or the actor, I’m not sure which.

You, SirMoogie, are awesome.

How come I do the same thing over and over and over again (with screenshots) and people call me everything but a troll and liar, he does it and he gets kudos?

Haha what a DAE circlejerk topic.

Trahearne really isn’t that bad, his worst attribute was the voice actor. He definitely didn’t steal anyone’s spotlight.

When I played through PS, I thought Trahearne was alright. Although he did have some problems as far as presentation and plot goes, he nevertheless ended up being someone whose story I was interested in and one of the more fleshed out characters in the story as a whole. I never felt he stole the spotlight from me, and it didn’t seem jarring to see him get a more prominent spot in the storyline.

One of my favourite story moments with him is the bit in the Source of Orr quest where you defend him while he completes his Wyld Hunt. That little bit of emotional dialogue just before the fight (“Here, at the end, I am glad that it’s just you and me. We will cleanse Orr together—as we were meant to do.”), the juxtaposition of “Fear Not This Night” with the desperate battle against Zhaitan’s hordes and then, finally, the triumph and light at the end of the tunnel after all the sacrifices you two had to make to get that far…it’s all very satisfying from a storytelling perspective, seeing how this timid scholar has come a long way and turned into the hero the Pale Tree wanted him to be, and that you two pulled all of this off together, making the impossible possible.

I do hope we’ll see him again in the storyline someday as I want to see what he’ll do now that he no longer has the weight of his Wyld Hunt on his shoulders and can find a new way to define himself.