Guild Wars 2

Emiko.3217:

I don’t hate Trahearne, but he does seem to think highly of himself… above the rest. Notice how he always retreat to the most highest places to overlook people below?

Yes, and he’s never with anyone to keep an eye on him, it’s like he wants some Risen ganker to come by and launch him off the ledge to lethal fall damage below.

. . . oh, by the Six, Traherne is suicidal!

I really resented the fact that my personal story revolved around him and his wyld hunt. I’m glad he had his mission to cleanse Orr and I was glad to help, but I feel like that should of just been few chapters in a story that should of revolved around me more.

I don’t want living story to replace personal story, though. Because I really don’t feel like I know the living story characters on the same level I know the ones in the personal story because there’s no real presentation of dialogue with them other than a quick click-through menu that I have to read.

But, my main is a human noble mesmer, and I know next to nothing about her personally because I had to deal with everything else going on. I don’t know the Queen, Logan, Countess Anise, Lord Faren, Minister Caudacus, or any of the side characters as much as I believe I should. I don’t know anything what so ever about my past, or about my family other than they’ve worked closely with the royal family for generations in an extremely mashed together and rushed summary. I didn’t have to make many important choices for myself or anything that truly revolved around me, and was more making moderately important choices for Trahearne because he said so.

I found all of this underwhelming, frustrating, and disappointing. Especially coming out of SWTOR which for all it’s faults at launch it at least delivered a far more compelling series of personal storylines that revolved around my character being at the center of everything. I hope that if they do return to personal story, like I very much hope they do, that they will return to our characters origins as well as elaborate a great deal on pretty much everything directly relevant to our characters personal lives so we don’t feel as disconnected from them as we currently really are.

When you play a game for too long you soon start to expect things from it that are completely unreasonable. If theres not enough RP in your MMO, go play a game that does that well and return to GW2 if you’re looking for a great combat system and world building. There are games that have new and even better approaches to RP than the GW2 Blockbuster that claims to be the worlds ever-new MMO. GW2 is a gorgeous game but its not the all-youll-ever-want-game. There will never be a game that fills someones entire free time (which I see a lot in GW2) and gives him all the happiness he needs. The world of game design is a big one. (and of course theres other things than games)

Shanna.4762:

… personal storylines that revolved around my character being at the center of everything. …

I don’t even mind that but everyone praising Trahearne for doing nothing that kittenes me off. I just killed the Mouth of Zhaitan and “my” character says: “Trahearne is bringing Zhaitan down bit by bit.”

She could have said: “WE are bringing Zhaitan down bit by bit.” But nope.
My own character doesn’t acknowledge her own participation and claims Trahearne did it. What a kitten of kitten.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Shanna.4762:

… personal storylines that revolved around my character being at the center of everything. …

I don’t even mind that but everyone praising Trahearne for doing nothing that kittenes me off. I just killed the Mouth of Zhaitan and “my” character says: “Trahearne is bringing Zhaitan down bit by bit.”

She could have said: “WE are bringing Zhaitan down bit by bit.” But nope.
My own character doesn’t acknowledge her own participation and claims Trahearne did it. What a kitten of kitten.

I had to look up the context, and in doing so, the meaning is obvious. It’s not about just the victory over the Mouth of Zhaitan, but the campaign in Orr as a whole . . . and about deflating an asura’s ego. (I can always get behind that.)

Also, you have the problem of the pair of charr trying to deride “Traherne’s unity claptrap”. It’s got to remain unified under him if it is going to keep moving. (We already saw what happened when the Pact was left to its own devices – it starts becoming a mess.)

Trahearne is a flat character and has a bad voice actor. His monotonous voice sounds like a text-to-speech. He worsened the bad character progression in the Personal Story. Not only he is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, the writer(s) used deus ex machina to save the group of Priory Scholars by making him summon five Flesh Golems.

mythil.9416:

Okay before I start, obvious spoilers before people get bent out of shape about this.

I’ve got more than one character to 80 and I love the Charr start story missions and so forth. However I have one major problem with the story, Trahearne..

He turns up half way through the story and totally takes the spotlight from you. Everyone starts bowing down to him and following everything he does and all you have is his dirty work to do. He totally removes the feeling of being the spotlight of the story, the hero and the driving force in change and it comes out of nowhere.

I’m sorry but (even though I overall like the game) this is horrible writing and I just had to air my opinions on this.

I didn’t read the second page, but pretty much what Moogie said. People seem to jump on this bandwagon of hate and twisted the facts around.

A friend outright told me (unsure where it is/if it’s true) that some members of the Pact talk about the player, and basically were telling tales about how the Commander(aka the player) took down the dragon at Claw Island by themselves. Traehearne NEVER steals the glory, never turns the player into a mook henchman, and never disregards the player. He often goes to the player and others for advice because he’s not an expert in these areas. He often talks about how without the player, they couldn’t do it.

Trahearne is the turning point when the personal story, and anything else story related in GW2, stops being about the player and starts being about how awesome some other Mary Sue (Trahearne, Destiny’s Edge) characters are.

They’re all that matters and you as a player are graced with the privilege of observing them.

How are they mary sues? Seriously. I don’t get that.

Also, it’s more of a turning point from where the Characters start to understand and accept the world problems. It’s a gradual but noticable trend in the personal story.

First set: Personal problems. Issues around the CHARACTER themselves.
Second set: Introduction to the orders, doing things that affect their nation/region.
Order missions: Aiding another race entirely.
Claw Island and beyond: Helping lead the pact, fighting dragon minions all over, and taking the fight to Orr.

It goes from “Man, that jerk just beat up my friend’s dad!” to “Holy kitten this town almost got wiped out.” Steadily the characters personal issues are set aside because in comparison they aren’t as important at the moment.

Kalavier.1097:

How are they mary sues? Seriously. I don’t get that.

They are characters that constantly upstage the player, and drag their own inter-group melodrama into the story. The player is not involved in any of these exchanges, he/she is a bystander, while the game focuses on these characters.

Logan Thackeray suffers from this problem the most, as does Eir Stegalkin. They feel like they are someone’s favorite DnD characters. They constantly take center stage, while clearly feeling untouchable. The players can instantly feel that these characters are meant to be the good guys, and that they will never die. This makes Logan’s “sacrifice” in Arah (if you can call it that) even more painful to sit through. It’s not a sacrifice, if it happens for no other reason other than to make Logan do something quasi heroic, but ultimately pointless, and if he survives at the end. And we all know that he will survive, because he is a Mary Sue, they don’t die.

The problem with Eir is that as a character she is completely flat. She is constantly the neutral character, trying to be reasonable, and bring the group back together. But her character ultimately falls completely flat, mostly because she lacks any sort of personality. She is identified purely by her race and profession, plus she’s good. That is Mary Sue writing. The conflict in the group comes off as completely artificial, since the player instantly knows that this conflict is introduced merely for the sake of resolving it near the end.

The story of Destiny’s Edge is like a slow burning read of a Mary Sue story. We all know that all the fake conflict that is being set up, is simply there for the sake of bringing them together at the end. As such, it doesn’t feel like a natural response from the characters, but as a cheap story ploy. And it also makes it incredibly predictable. If Rytlock had rejected Logan at the end, it would have redeemed at least Rytlock as a character, because we’d see him with flaws. But we knew right from the start that all Rytlock’s “anger” towards Logan was fake. That is was merely there, just to be resolved by the end of the story. That is how Mary Sues are written. And I could write entire volumes on why Trahearne is a Mary Sue, but I think Destiny’s Edge is worse.

Traheane doesn’t upstage the character though. He doesn’t steal the glory, he doesn’t take credit, he doesn’t diminish the players actions at all.

Rytlocks anger was fake purely because they managed to overcome a single hurdle? You know why he wasn’t at the jubilee and Rox was? Because he couldn’t stand being around both Logan and Jennah. (and he hated state events). He purposefully removed himself because the combo of Jennah and Logan was too much for him. Both characters admit they have a lot to work through/overcome before they can easily work together again, but they are starting.

Your statement basically reads as “If somebody stays behind to help the others escape, and shows up alive, it’s pointless.” “If two characters hate each other because of something in their past, but overcome it, it’s pointless and fake”.

Eir and Logan (and Caithe as I’ve done those three races entirely through the story past being into an order) don’t upstage the character. Rytlock isn’t doing it much and Zoijja didn’t seem to do it much either. In the dungeons, guess what? The storymode of the dungeons is mostly ABOUT the Destiny’s Edge group. It’s not as focused on the player (They are mainly there and helping out).

Kalavier.1097:

Traheane doesn’t upstage the character though. He doesn’t steal the glory, he doesn’t take credit, he doesn’t diminish the players actions at all.

Except for the fact that he’s suddenly promoted to Pact leader. The leader should of course have been the player.

Kalavier.1097:

Rytlocks anger was fake purely because they managed to overcome a single hurdle?

No, it’s fake because any player knows right from the start that the two will be shaking hands by the end of the story.

Kalavier.1097:

You know why he wasn’t at the jubilee and Rox was? Because he couldn’t stand being around both Logan and Jennah. (and he hated state events). He purposefully removed himself because the combo of Jennah and Logan was too much for him.

This is a case of the writing improving during the Living Story. The writers seem aware that Destiny’s Edge didn’t really work in the personal story, and thus exclude them a lot from the recent Living Story. They briefly appear, but are now very low key, in contract to the personal story. This is a case of writers stepping up their writing.

Kalavier.1097:

Your statement basically reads as “If somebody stays behind to help the others escape, and shows up alive, it’s pointless.” “If two characters hate each other because of something in their past, but overcome it, it’s pointless and fake”.

No it’s pointless and fake, because we knew it wasn’t a sacrifice, and we knew there was no reason for Logan to stay behind. There’s no reason why the airship couldn’t cut its own ropes from on board the airship. This obstacle was purely hamfisted in to give Logan a sacrificial moment… only to have him pop up completely unscratched on a brand new airship at the end. That is terrible writing, and it diminishes the act of a sacrifice.

Kalavier.1097:

Eir and Logan (and Caithe as I’ve done those three races entirely through the story past being into an order) don’t upstage the character.

In fact they do. When ever there’s a problem, or a fight, it is Eir who steps in and takes the part of the player, and tries to break up the fight. But she ultimately doesn’t contribute at all, and could just as easily have been replaced by the player.

And in the final cut scene of the game, we see Destiny’s Edge march towards a sunset, while the player stands somewhere to the side. That is the definition of upstaging the player.

Chiming in on the DE bit: I think the problem with their story is the medium, namely, dungeons. I could list the problems meshing story into that medium, but suffice it to say for now that ANet was faced with a choice between having players almost certainly miss so many elements that the story became incomprehensible, or skimming the entire plot down to a form that can be communicated through cutscenes and the name of the boss you’re hammering. They went for what they must have felt was the least bad option, and as a result the story is as superficial as a Mary Sue writer.

I think it’s also a problem with Destiny’s Edge literally being shoved in our face. Whether we follow the personal story, or do dungeons. Especially in the human storyline, you are literally sent to Logan Thackeray dozens of times to progress your personal story. And even outside Divinity’s Reach he finds ways to crawl into your story, or send you letters.

And I don’t think apart from Rytlock anyone in Tyria dislikes Logan. Everyone seems to find him just great. Meanwhile me and guildies are poking fun at his dull and shallow character through teamspeak. It gives us a lot of laughs, but it really goes to show just how empty he is.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kalavier.1097:

Traheane doesn’t upstage the character though. He doesn’t steal the glory, he doesn’t take credit, he doesn’t diminish the players actions at all.

Except for the fact that he’s suddenly promoted to Pact leader. The leader should of course have been the player.

No, because they need somebody who can be mentioned directly in lore, like Kormir. Also you must’ve missed the fact A: They needed somebody neutral in order to prevent one order from appearing to be favored. B: Trahearne goes to the PLAYER most, and other leaders a lot for advice, and gives a lot of command freedom/choices to the player. C: Not once does he take credit or glory from the player. He often admits and openly says without the player they couldn’t be doing what they do.

Kalavier.1097:

Rytlocks anger was fake purely because they managed to overcome a single hurdle?

No, it’s fake because any player knows right from the start that the two will be shaking hands by the end of the story.

We have differing opinions. I assumed that DE would reform, but I never thought they’d just shake hands and be best friends again. Which they are not in any way shape or form. But hey, you seem like the type that loves to twist facts to support your side.

Kalavier.1097:

You know why he wasn’t at the jubilee and Rox was? Because he couldn’t stand being around both Logan and Jennah. (and he hated state events). He purposefully removed himself because the combo of Jennah and Logan was too much for him.

This is a case of the writing improving during the Living Story. The writers seem aware that Destiny’s Edge didn’t really work in the personal story, and thus exclude them a lot from the recent Living Story. They briefly appear, but are now very low key, in contract to the personal story. This is a case of writers stepping up their writing.

Because each member of DE has important roles for the most part in their society, and work to do those. I’m sure when the pact moves to attack another dragon they’ll group up to help out. Until then, they are doing their day to day lives.

Kalavier.1097:

Your statement basically reads as “If somebody stays behind to help the others escape, and shows up alive, it’s pointless.” “If two characters hate each other because of something in their past, but overcome it, it’s pointless and fake”.

No it’s pointless and fake, because we knew it wasn’t a sacrifice, and we knew there was no reason for Logan to stay behind. There’s no reason why the airship couldn’t cut its own ropes from on board the airship. This obstacle was purely hamfisted in to give Logan a sacrificial moment… only to have him pop up completely unscratched on a brand new airship at the end. That is terrible writing, and it diminishes the act of a sacrifice.

Unless it was harder to do it from the top then the bottom.

Kalavier.1097:

Eir and Logan (and Caithe as I’ve done those three races entirely through the story past being into an order) don’t upstage the character.

In fact they do. When ever there’s a problem, or a fight, it is Eir who steps in and takes the part of the player, and tries to break up the fight. But she ultimately doesn’t contribute at all, and could just as easily have been replaced by the player.

And in the final cut scene of the game, we see Destiny’s Edge march towards a sunset, while the player stands somewhere to the side. That is the definition of upstaging the player.

Been a while since I’ve done the Norn first area, but I recall Eir let the player make a lot of the choices, and the PLAYER was trying to get Eir to move on.

Also, another example of you TWISTING YOUR FACTS.

End cutscene to personal story. Destiny’s Edge walks forth from the light, player character IN THE CENTER AND IN FRONT. Destiny’s Edge on the shores of Orr looking over the ruins/ocean. player character right there with them and again, kinda in the center.

I’m sorry, what was that about Destiny’s Edge walking off into the sunset in the cutscene while the player sat to the side?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think it’s also a problem with Destiny’s Edge literally being shoved in our face. Whether we follow the personal story, or do dungeons. Especially in the human storyline, you are literally sent to Logan Thackeray dozens of times to progress your personal story. And even outside Divinity’s Reach he finds ways to crawl into your story, or send you letters.

And I don’t think apart from Rytlock anyone in Tyria dislikes Logan. Everyone seems to find him just great. Meanwhile me and guildies are poking fun at his dull and shallow character through teamspeak. It gives us a lot of laughs, but it really goes to show just how empty he is.

I didn’t mind them in the personal storyline though. They felt like interesting characters at that point, and on top of that they were a great barometer for the player’s rise. It was only at the point where they set foot in Lion’s Arch again that the writers hit their reset buttons and they were rewritten as you describe.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think it’s also a problem with Destiny’s Edge literally being shoved in our face. Whether we follow the personal story, or do dungeons. Especially in the human storyline, you are literally sent to Logan Thackeray dozens of times to progress your personal story. And even outside Divinity’s Reach he finds ways to crawl into your story, or send you letters.

And I don’t think apart from Rytlock anyone in Tyria dislikes Logan. Everyone seems to find him just great. Meanwhile me and guildies are poking fun at his dull and shallow character through teamspeak. It gives us a lot of laughs, but it really goes to show just how empty he is.

I didn’t mind them in the personal storyline though. They felt like interesting characters at that point, and on top of that they were a great barometer for the player’s rise. It was only at the point where they set foot in Lion’s Arch again that the writers hit their reset buttons and they were rewritten as you describe.

I felt like it was more of them accepting the break up and moving on, getting into important daily roles for their society. Then suddenly being tricked (IIRC, it was a trick by Caithe) into meeting each other and getting a line about reforming the group that set everybody off. They just weren’t ready to work together again and needed to work out issues, which is what they did in the dungeons. There is more issues that need to be smoothed out, but they can work together now at least.

Kalavier.1097:

No, because they need somebody who can be mentioned directly in lore, like Kormir.

No they don’t. And the devs have even admitted that Kormir was a big mistake, since she basically steals your glory.

Kalavier.1097:

Also you must’ve missed the fact A: They needed somebody neutral in order to prevent one order from appearing to be favored.

Why couldn’t the Pact simply be lead by someone neutral? Like the player?

Kalavier.1097:

B: Trahearne goes to the PLAYER most, and other leaders a lot for advice, and gives a lot of command freedom/choices to the player. C: Not once does he take credit or glory from the player. He often admits and openly says without the player they couldn’t be doing what they do.

And yes he is constantly the focus of the ending of the personal story. Almost every single player has complained on this issue, that from the moment Trahearne is introduced, she focus of the story shifts from the player to him. It’s not like I’m making this all up on my own. An overwhelming majority of the players seems to feel this way.

Kalavier.1097:

But hey, you seem like the type that loves to twist facts to support your side.

Attack the arguments, not the person making them.

Kalavier.1097:

Because each member of DE has important roles for the most part in their society, and work to do those. I’m sure when the pact moves to attack another dragon they’ll group up to help out. Until then, they are doing their day to day lives.

This is another example of Mary Sue writing. Giving each member of this elite group a very important job, and being the leader of something. We didn’t see them earn their position, or earn their importance in the story. And consequentially it feels like we are literally being told that these guys are heroes, instead of showing us that they are. What we are shown instead, is that they whine a lot.

Kalavier.1097:

Unless it was harder to do it from the top then the bottom.

Plot convenience. The design of the airship suddenly suffers a major flaw because otherwise Logan couldn’t sacrifice himself heroically. That is bad writing.

Kalavier.1097:

Also, another example of you TWISTING YOUR FACTS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvXgP6Wksfc

End cutscene to personal story. Destiny’s Edge walks forth from the light, player character IN THE CENTER AND IN FRONT. Destiny’s Edge on the shores of Orr looking over the ruins/ocean. player character right there with them and again, kinda in the center.

I’m sorry, what was that about Destiny’s Edge walking off into the sunset in the cutscene while the player sat to the side?

Ehrm, did you watch your own link?

I feel Aaron’s on the right track here and that it’s mostly story-telling ingame.
And in return the way they decided to do the story-telling leaves no room for good pacing and interaction and thus DE appears mostly bland. Tho they’re not quite Mary Sues. Just bland.

I for a change, liked Eir. She’s calm and collected, has a leadership persona but is afraid of failure and is very easily discouraged – that’s her personality. I don’t see how being introverted equals having no personality, if anything she was written the best ingame. I guess it’s just that people don’t like characters that aren’t boom and bang about their interactions.

Logan has been discussed back and forth to death. See the what’s wrong with Logan-thread that floated here in the lore-forum some time ago, it was a really good read.

If anyone got hit the worst by the writing it’s Zojja. Zojja has some huge pride- and bitterness-issues. Her adamant finger-pointing and blaming Eir and the whole suicide-deal was ridiculous. Only after playing an Asura you get to find out that she has temper-issues in general and after the second quest-line she hesitantly apologizes. And then her bad side clashing with Eir’s finally makes a bit more sense, but the delivery is still pretty bad.

Kalavier.1097:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think it’s also a problem with Destiny’s Edge literally being shoved in our face. Whether we follow the personal story, or do dungeons. Especially in the human storyline, you are literally sent to Logan Thackeray dozens of times to progress your personal story. And even outside Divinity’s Reach he finds ways to crawl into your story, or send you letters.

And I don’t think apart from Rytlock anyone in Tyria dislikes Logan. Everyone seems to find him just great. Meanwhile me and guildies are poking fun at his dull and shallow character through teamspeak. It gives us a lot of laughs, but it really goes to show just how empty he is.

I didn’t mind them in the personal storyline though. They felt like interesting characters at that point, and on top of that they were a great barometer for the player’s rise. It was only at the point where they set foot in Lion’s Arch again that the writers hit their reset buttons and they were rewritten as you describe.

I felt like it was more of them accepting the break up and moving on, getting into important daily roles for their society. Then suddenly being tricked (IIRC, it was a trick by Caithe) into meeting each other and getting a line about reforming the group that set everybody off. They just weren’t ready to work together again and needed to work out issues, which is what they did in the dungeons. There is more issues that need to be smoothed out, but they can work together now at least.

The thing is though, at the time Caithe sent that message all the others had also, in the course of their storylines, worked themselves to the point of be willing to reach out to the others, for the good of their own peoples. Yes, Caithe tricked them into going faster than they had wanted, but that scene stands out to me as the second worst in the game because A.) It was still the direction they had all independently resolved to go in, and B.) everyone but Caithe and Eir completely and abruptly forgot that big revelation they had come to just the quest prior.

@Elysian Yeah, Zojja definitely came out the worst for that reset. Up to that point, she had been proud, perhaps even snotty, but not so far that she couldn’t recognize and compensate for the traits. As soon as she hits the dungeons, though, her sole character trait becomes petulance, no matter how irrational a response it is in a given situation.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kalavier.1097:

No, because they need somebody who can be mentioned directly in lore, like Kormir.

No they don’t. And the devs have even admitted that Kormir was a big mistake, since she basically steals your glory.

Kalavier.1097:

Also you must’ve missed the fact A: They needed somebody neutral in order to prevent one order from appearing to be favored.

Why couldn’t the Pact simply be lead by someone neutral? Like the player?

I assume you didn’t pay attention, because at that point the player is solidly WITHIN one of the orders, which removes the whole “Neutral bit.” Kormir doesn’t steal your glory either. I never got that impression. Trahearne most definately does not.

Kalavier.1097:

B: Trahearne goes to the PLAYER most, and other leaders a lot for advice, and gives a lot of command freedom/choices to the player. C: Not once does he take credit or glory from the player. He often admits and openly says without the player they couldn’t be doing what they do.

And yes he is constantly the focus of the ending of the personal story. Almost every single player has complained on this issue, that from the moment Trahearne is introduced, she focus of the story shifts from the player to him. It’s not like I’m making this all up on my own. An overwhelming majority of the players seems to feel this way.

Forum goers doesn’t mean overall population. And that’s ACTUALLY a good side to the story. The characters are going from “HEY, YOU JUST RUINED MY WELCOME BACK PARTY!” to “Oh kitten, we gotta come up with a plan to defend and take back Claw Island or Lions Arch will be destroyed, and possibly Kryta invaded!” You go from a comfort bubble of daily life to helping lead one of the biggest military forces against the Risen. Again, he doesn’t steal glory and points out HOW IMPORTANT YOU ARE TO SUCCESS. How can the focus be entirely off the player if that is true?

Kalavier.1097:

Because each member of DE has important roles for the most part in their society, and work to do those. I’m sure when the pact moves to attack another dragon they’ll group up to help out. Until then, they are doing their day to day lives.

This is another example of Mary Sue writing. Giving each member of this elite group a very important job, and being the leader of something. We didn’t see them earn their position, or earn their importance in the story. And consequentially it feels like we are literally being told that these guys are heroes, instead of showing us that they are. What we are shown instead, is that they whine a lot.

Zoijja, brilliant Asura (admittedly with anger issues) who was under a very big genius of the time.
Logan, picked by Jennah to be her champion, joined Seraph after the battle at Ebonhawke.
Eir, doesn’t really have an “important spot” so to speak in Norn Society, but is well known and sometimes sought after for advice.
Rytlock, IIRC it’s explicitly said he worked his way up the ranks, leading him to being Tribune.
Caithe, firstborn, all firstborn are treated with importance/respect in Sylvari culture.

Kalavier.1097:

Unless it was harder to do it from the top then the bottom.

Plot convenience. The design of the airship suddenly suffers a major flaw because otherwise Logan couldn’t sacrifice himself heroically. That is bad writing.

How do we know that’s a sudden flaw? We never get told of Airship engineering beforehand.

Kalavier.1097:

Also, another example of you TWISTING YOUR FACTS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvXgP6Wksfc

End cutscene to personal story. Destiny’s Edge walks forth from the light, player character IN THE CENTER AND IN FRONT. Destiny’s Edge on the shores of Orr looking over the ruins/ocean. player character right there with them and again, kinda in the center.

I’m sorry, what was that about Destiny’s Edge walking off into the sunset in the cutscene while the player sat to the side?

Ehrm, did you watch your own link?

Ehem, did you even look at your picture. Right of Zoijja, below Garm, and left of trahearne. That would be the player character of the Charr seen leading Destiny’s edge out of the light earlier. Again, he’s present and standing besides DE, disproving your “Upstaged and pushed to the side” theory.

Kalavier.1097:

I assume you didn’t pay attention, because at that point the player is solidly WITHIN one of the orders, which removes the whole “Neutral bit.”

They could have easily written that differently. The orders hardly play a part in the finale of the game anyway, and certainly not against Zhaitan. There was literally no reason for Trahearne as a character to exist, when you have the player.

Kalavier.1097:

Kormir doesn’t steal your glory either. I never got that impression.

She doesn’t aid you in battle, and after defeating Abaddon, she takes his place as the new goddess. How is that not stealing your glory? She literally takes the reward for your efforts right underneath your own nose. And like I said, even some of the writers at Anet have come out to state that this was a mistake, that Kormir stealing your glory was a bad story decision.

Kalavier.1097:

Again, he doesn’t steal glory and points out HOW IMPORTANT YOU ARE TO SUCCESS. How can the focus be entirely off the player if that is true?

Because it should be the player leading the armies, not some hastily introduced npc. Granted, he gets more of an introduction in the Sylvari storyline. But it’s Trahearne who is given the magic sword Caladbolg. It is Trahearne who purifies Orr. And it is Trahearne who leads the Pact against Zhaitan. Remove him from the story, and replace him with the player, and you instantly have a more fulfilling personal story.

Kalavier.1097:

Zoijja, brilliant Asura (admittedly with anger issues) who was under a very big genius of the time. Logan, picked by Jennah to be her champion, joined Seraph after the battle at Ebonhawke. Eir, doesn’t really have an “important spot” so to speak in Norn Society, but is well known and sometimes sought after for advice. Rytlock, IIRC it’s explicitly said he worked his way up the ranks, leading him to being Tribune. Caithe, firstborn, all firstborn are treated with importance/respect in Sylvari culture.

That is the very definition of Mary Sue writing. They are all heroes of some sort, and we are told they are heroes, part of the awesome Destiny’s Edge.

Kalavier.1097:

How do we know that’s a sudden flaw? We never get told of Airship engineering beforehand.

SIGH! You can’t recognize a convenient plot device when you see it? And you’ll even go as far as to make an excuse for it? There is no logical reason why Logan had to stay behind. None what so ever. They didn’t even consider another option. The soul purpose of the airship being landlocked, was so that Logan could stay behind and be a hero. Don’t defend that sort of writing. It’s dishonest.

Kalavier.1097:

Ehem, did you even look at your picture. Right of Zoijja, below Garm, and left of trahearne. That would be the player character of the Charr seen leading Destiny’s edge out of the light earlier. Again, he’s present and standing besides DE, disproving your “Upstaged and pushed to the side” theory.

He’s standing to the side clearly. He’s not leading them anywhere, he’s tagging along.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kalavier.1097:

I assume you didn’t pay attention, because at that point the player is solidly WITHIN one of the orders, which removes the whole “Neutral bit.”

They could have easily written that differently. The orders hardly play a part in the finale of the game anyway, and certainly not against Zhaitan. There was literally no reason for Trahearne as a character to exist, when you have the player.

Orders help make most of the gear. They basically are the army that takes Orr.

Kalavier.1097:

Kormir doesn’t steal your glory either. I never got that impression.

She doesn’t aid you in battle, and after defeating Abaddon, she takes his place as the new goddess. How is that not stealing your glory? She literally takes the reward for your efforts right underneath your own nose. And like I said, even some of the writers at Anet have come out to state that this was a mistake, that Kormir stealing your glory was a bad story decision.

Because from a storytelling standpoint, how do you go forward? “Oh, this sixth god has no name because he/she was a player character” It’d be worse for the players to take that slot as then they’d be retconned/forced into something else for the canon writers. “This person was a sunspear (which disregards any proph or factions characters), and became a god named X (which disregards player names).” Yes, Kormir may have been done badly though.

Kalavier.1097:

Again, he doesn’t steal glory and points out HOW IMPORTANT YOU ARE TO SUCCESS. How can the focus be entirely off the player if that is true?

Because it should be the player leading the armies, not some hastily introduced npc. Granted, he gets more of an introduction in the Sylvari storyline. But it’s Trahearne who is given the magic sword Caladbolg. It is Trahearne who purifies Orr. And it is Trahearne who leads the Pact against Zhaitan. Remove him from the story, and replace him with the player, and you instantly have a more fulfilling personal story.

After cleansing Orr Trahearne basically gives you command of the Pact as he has to rest. The rest of the time the player is doing high profile/very important tasks. Besides, which makes more sense to you. “A scholar well studied in Orr and known/respected by the three orders.” or “A Sylvari just recently awoken and joined (example) the Vigil. Order of Whispers and Priory has basically no real knowledge of this person.”

I’d go with the first over the second. Especially if you factor in say, human variant. “A human street rat who managed to befriend Logan, stop a minor plot and then joined the order of whispers.” Charr and Asura have slightly more impressive points perhaps, but still the same thing. “A known person to the orders and respected” vs “A semi-newcomer to the world at large, unknown to the other orders really.”

That is the very definition of Mary Sue writing. They are all heroes of some sort, and we are told they are heroes, part of the awesome Destiny’s Edge.

Logan and Rytlock were generic line troops before running into Caithe. Zoijja was apprentice to Snaff. Caithe was firstborn. Eir was a sculptor and ranger. Really, Zoijja and Caithe had any real ‘heroish’ status before Destiny’s Edge. Their actions as the group gave them a reputations.

Kalavier.1097:

How do we know that’s a sudden flaw? We never get told of Airship engineering beforehand.

SIGH! You can’t recognize a convenient plot device when you see it? And you’ll even go as far as to make an excuse for it? There is no logical reason why Logan had to stay behind. None what so ever. They didn’t even consider another option. The soul purpose of the airship being landlocked, was so that Logan could stay behind and be a hero. Don’t defend that sort of writing. It’s dishonest.

I’m not going to fret over it. It’s one of those scenes I accept but can also accept it could’ve been done better.

Kalavier.1097:

Ehem, did you even look at your picture. Right of Zoijja, below Garm, and left of trahearne. That would be the player character of the Charr seen leading Destiny’s edge out of the light earlier. Again, he’s present and standing besides DE, disproving your “Upstaged and pushed to the side” theory.

He’s standing to the side clearly. He’s not leading them anywhere, he’s tagging along.

They aren’t going anywhere in that shot. They are standing on the coast doing nothing. And he’s in line with Rytlock and Logan. That combined with the previous shot (Of him leading Destiny’s Edge out of the light) really don’t make it appear as if he’s tagging along or sidelined.