Guild Wars 2

Dustfinger.9510:

Astralporing.1957:

You didn’t really. Yes, abandoning and/or retconning the story at this point would cause problems, that’s true, but it’s not like continuing with it would be any less problematic. That is however only in the short term. Abandonment of the storyline at this moment offers some chance to salvage what they can in order for the story to eventually get better again. Leaving Scarlet as she is, however, creates a minefiels all future storylines will have to walk on. And if they are unwilling to correct situation now, they will be even less likely to manage to do it later.

Bolded describes how I did. All you’ve just said now is that a-net should come up with something that everyone can get behind (….great idea).

No, i said, that short term both options have their pros and cons, but long term consequences favour one side significantly.

You are advocating leaving a dangerously faulty bridge unfixed, because any repair work would cause traffic problems. I am saying that yes, traffic problems are bad, but repair is still necessary, because if (when) that bridge finally breaks down, it will cause much more damage.

Astralporing.1957:

Dustfinger.9510:

Astralporing.1957:

You didn’t really. Yes, abandoning and/or retconning the story at this point would cause problems, that’s true, but it’s not like continuing with it would be any less problematic. That is however only in the short term. Abandonment of the storyline at this moment offers some chance to salvage what they can in order for the story to eventually get better again. Leaving Scarlet as she is, however, creates a minefiels all future storylines will have to walk on. And if they are unwilling to correct situation now, they will be even less likely to manage to do it later.

Bolded describes how I did. All you’ve just said now is that a-net should come up with something that everyone can get behind (….great idea).

No, i said, that short term both options have their pros and cons, but long term consequences favour one side significantly.

And what I said that you disagreed with is that “I’ve already demonstrated how the option to stop the current perceived damage isn’t available right now.”
Even though your idea doesn’t eliminate the current problem. So what is your idea that will make the story better? Actual idea. Not a nebulous ideal of GW shangrilah.

edit:

You are advocating leaving a dangerously faulty bridge unfixed, because any repair work would cause traffic problems. I am saying that yes, traffic problems are bad, but repair is still necessary, because if (when) that bridge finally breaks down, it will cause much more damage

No. What I’m advocating is starting repairs only after we have a repair plan drawn up. Otherwise you are onlytrading problems without actually solving anything.

I’ve stopped reading posts like this or responding them — there are just too many loud and strident voices who are sure that their view is correct and I’ve grown weary of repeating the same thing: I’m happy with the evolution of the living story and I like Scarlet as a villain. The current setup allows Tyria to evolve slowly and yet look extremely different to people returning after a few months.

I pay a lot attention to lore and I don’t see anything in terms of story in which major continuity is broken. There is a tendency by many “lore experts” to believe everything said about anything, if it’s in-game. In a good story, lots of people have differing points of view. Just because Pale Tree followers say nice things about the Dream doesn’t mean it’s true; just because Nightmare Courtiers say negative things doesn’t make them wrong.

Consequently, I don’t see anything in the original post that concerns me.

tl;dr Keep up the good work, Bobby Stein and fellow writers. I’m looking forward to more.

Hey Bobby, I thought I would chime in and say I personally really enjoyed the latest addition to the living story and think you and the team did a great job. I think the slack you are coping from people is unfair and I think it says heaps about you that you are willing to come on here and face it. I am looking forward to the conclusion of the Scarlett story line, not because I want it to end, but because I think it is going to be very interesting. Thanks again.

BobbyStein.2315:

Hey, Dott. I get that you’re passionate about the game and that you’re not a fan of Scarlet but you’re not living up to the collaborative spirit of the forums. I’d take your feedback a lot more seriously if you weren’t so hostile and personal with your comments. Let’s keep things civil here.

Or you could let players express their frustrations in an impactful manner. I played Guild Wars 1 for 7 years and am passionate as hell about both it and Guild Wars 2, and I’m tired of every bit of real criticism being drowned in a shower of “let’s hold hands and work together.” People aren’t mad because they can’t be rational, people are mad because they try and level their complaints and get ignored until it’s too late.

The original designers of GW1 would be ashamed at what this game and your company have become. The fact of the matter is, you can phrase any argument as nicely as you like, but it all boils down to a few simple points: We don’t like Scarlet, we don’t like butchering Guild Wars’ vast and extensive history and world in favor of shoeing in steampunk-esque villains, and we don’t like the general direction this all has taken us. We want more of what Guild Wars 1 gave us. We want a rich world and a believable enemy. We want the dragons we were promised. We want to be heroes, not sidekicks to a menagerie cast of shallow “empowered” females. There’s so many ways that the community can and is willing to help, but none of it ever works if the only rhetoric that ever gets through is “you’re doing good and you’re so brave for coming to wade through these forums filled with hate.”

I almost never post on these forums because it’s so bogged down with this “collaborative” mindset that no real discussion is ever given just response. What is so hard or controversial about being real with your players? Eating criticism, not shunning it, should be part of your job. You’re in the career of writing, one of the most accessible outlets available. Not everyone can code, not everyone can design a game, but a great deal of people can write, and a great many of your players are writers and roleplayers themselves who come here to tell you where you’ve gone wrong because they understand the game and they understand good characters. When every legitimate argument they have is ignored, they get frustrated, and then the response is to ignore their frustration harder? Where does that take you?

When is her end coming? The sooner the better. It sounds a lot like the player base doesn’t like her.

Why is she shoehorned into everything? Does she have to be? We are already getting very minimal lore (10 secs or so) with these small 2 week updates and she has to appear?

The story has already been written correct? So it didn’t matter who we voted for because scarlet would have appeared in both?

I am trying to not be so negative but it’s been patch after patch and it’s getting worse, not better. The base of the story and the lore included in this update was good, but then you added in scarlet. She has overshadowed and ruined it for most.

edit:
“Fractal work started back in August, which is when players first encountered Scarlet and around when the votes were tallied.”

I think “we” understand this, but you need to go back and look at your work when the community continues to react a certain way. The attitude being put forth here is “well the work was done and even though we knew a good deal of you would hate it, whats done is done.”

I don’t think that is what you are trying to convey here but it’s how it feels, sounds, and looks.

Darmikau.9413:

BobbyStein.2315:

Hey, Dott. I get that you’re passionate about the game and that you’re not a fan of Scarlet but you’re not living up to the collaborative spirit of the forums. I’d take your feedback a lot more seriously if you weren’t so hostile and personal with your comments. Let’s keep things civil here.

Or you could let players express their frustrations in an impactful manner. I played Guild Wars 1 for 7 years and am passionate as hell about both it and Guild Wars 2, and I’m tired of every bit of real criticism being drowned in a shower of “let’s hold hands and work together.” People aren’t mad because they can’t be rational, people are mad because they try and level their complaints and get ignored until it’s too late.

The original designers of GW1 would be ashamed at what this game and your company have become. The fact of the matter is, you can phrase any argument as nicely as you like, but it all boils down to a few simple points: We don’t like Scarlet, we don’t like butchering Guild Wars’ vast and extensive history and world in favor of shoeing in steampunk-esque villains, and we don’t like the general direction this all has taken us. We want more of what Guild Wars 1 gave us. We want a rich world and a believable enemy. We want the dragons we were promised. We want to be heroes, not sidekicks to a menagerie cast of shallow “empowered” females. There’s so many ways that the community can and is willing to help, but none of it ever works if the only rhetoric that ever gets through is “you’re doing good and you’re so brave for coming to wade through these forums filled with hate.”

Specialy since guild wars beyond got canceled, there quite a few story bits, most linking guild wars to guild wars 2 that where never fully put, due to lack of developers in guild wars1 but that where allready written and planned. Guild wars 2 story seems to lack what made guild wars great, a true story of heroes. it is still possible.

BobbyStein.2315:

Eluveitie.1290:

This would give a lot of people peace of mind, Bobby, I hope you respond: is the end of Scarlet’s arch already on its way?

I mentioned this elsewhere on the forums, but I’ll say it here again. There is an end to the Scarlet story that has been planned out. I’m not at liberty to discuss release dates or the timeline, though.

i think it’s also pretty fair to remind you everytime you use scarlet that players do not like her and do not want scarlet to be involved in the story. It is such an overwhelming majority of players that think she is poorly written and want to stop you from using her not actually stop her. This seems a pretty big problem for you to just respond with “we have a plan”.

I like the Q&A format of this so I’m writing a reply (note: I just replied with the first thing that popped into my head).

Q. What does it mean when a writer consistently breaks his own lore

They are being disengenuous to the fans.

Q. Does it matter if a writer consistently goes against what is taken as fact?

Fans need consitency to help them follow a story.

Q. Is it possible for a story to recover from when this happens?

Kind of… They could reconcile lose ends. Or they could just pretend it never happened and avoid breaking any more lore in the future.

Q. Does anyone care if those in charge ignore complaints about lore?

I don’t know how this question is relevant. (EDIT: perhaps you should reword this question to “Do you care if an author ignores complaints about lore?”)

Q. Do you think retconning Scarlet would be a good idea, or a bad one?

Scarlett hasn’t done anything bad enough to deserve a retcon yet. Once her story arc completes then we can decide.

JNetRocks.3652:

I think that Scarlet has a lot of potential. She is a fun, interesting villain and definitely different from anyone else in the game. I feel like the flaw isn’t with Scarlet as a character but more with the very long arch and lack of meaningful story.

I think scarlet HAD a lot of potential but was so poorly done that the potential is ruined and it is time to put scarlet to rest and move on. I am sure bobby is familiar with the term poisoned the well and should understand he will never be able to use scarlet without this negative feedback and should look into changing this masterplan of his so that players hate of scarlet doesnt ruin the story as it currently is.

Snuggley.5697:

What does it mean when a writer consistently breaks his own lore?

It means they’ve either been directed to that course externally, they’re malicious or poor in their storytelling, or they’ve forgotten the boundaries of their established world. In the first case there’s honestly not much that can be done. If Company X tells hired writer Y to do Z for the story because it’s required for the next release of monetized content, they either go with it or lose their job and, hopefully, try and fit it in in the least-compromising way possible. In the second case, a poor or malicious writer should and would ideally be identified and replaced. If the writer works alone, or is in a self-governing group of writers, then whatever alterations are at their sole discretion, good or bad. The last case is honestly forgivable. Even in small-scale character writing for roleplaying people can easily lose track of the principles they founded their characters on. It can be as simple as an honest mistake, and is best addressed by admitting the mistake, retconning it appropriately, or applying a reasonable solution. A writer should never try and justify a mistake by saying it was planned, or they have a new vision, unless it can be well-justified. Consistency is the life of many things, and it’s even truer in writing. Always be aware of your sources and their limitations and never break them without good reason.

Does it matter if a writer consistently goes against what is taken as fact?

Of course. In the simplest story building model, the character, what would happen if you sudden began to change that character’s personality, motivations, or other given foundations without reasonable justification? They’d cease the be the character they were in everything but name (and perhaps appearance). The same is true for world-building. Characters and worlds can evolve, but change is largely gradual and when you deviate from the foundations people lose faith. When characters deviate too largely or too quickly from their original forms people becomes disgusted or disinterested. When worlds deviate too largely or too quickly from their source, people lose faith and the world loses believability. Again, consistency is key.

Is it possible for a story to recover from when this happens?

Absolutely. While no writer should ever have to retcon something unless absolutely necessary, worlds and characters can evolve in ways that account for changes in transgressions. Again mentioning foundations, as long as the fundamentals of the world aren’t altered, some leniency can be taken in bringing about change. This becomes increasingly difficult the more and more you challenge your readers and viewers with inconsistencies or subvert their expectations. The less believable the world becomes, the harder it is to re-convince your audience that it can ever be the same again. This is largely my concern with Scarlet and the Aetherblades being so largely out of place.

Does anyone care if those in charge ignore complaints about lore?

If they didn’t, I don’t think this thread would exist.

Do you think retconning Scarlet would be a good idea, or a bad one?

As much as I dislike her, I think Scarlet has gone too far beyond the point of being able to be retconned. She’s been woven into far too much, and on a general level no writer should ever retcon unless there is absolutely no choice. In most cases, this means incongruency in the world. Scarlet isn’t believable, she isn’t interesting, and she isn’t a good villain for Guild Wars, but she hasn’t actually introduced any inconsistencies in the Guild Wars world (she’s introduced a lot of things that make very little sense, and a lot of lore pieces that are very out of place in the given world, but none of it directly conflicts with the world’s established history). She can and should eventually be phased out, and will hopefully be lost to history as “that weird thing that happened once.” The true failure of Guild Wars 2’s writing won’t be in what Scarlet does (though what she does isn’t helping), it will be in how she is remembered. And if she or anything she has caused is remembered in any significant way, THEN she interferes with the natural foundations of the constructed world and becomes the subject of ire forever more.

BobbyStein.2315:

Eluveitie.1290:

This would give a lot of people peace of mind, Bobby, I hope you respond: is the end of Scarlet’s arch already on its way?

I mentioned this elsewhere on the forums, but I’ll say it here again. There is an end to the Scarlet story that has been planned out. I’m not at liberty to discuss release dates or the timeline, though.

“Been planned out”. Not in testing, not in production, but “planned out”. Cantha hasn’t been “planned out”. More Elder Dragons haven’t been “planned out”. But Scarlet has been planned completely the kitten out. Nothing but Scarlet, as far as the internal schedule stretches.

Thanks. That’s very reassuring.

BobbyStein.2315:

True.

Related to your comment, what reveals resonated with you?

Well, if the ending of that story segment with Dessa was intentional, then this means that there is a lot more to the fractals than we anticipated. Can we even be sure that Dessa is even from this time period? Not sure how much to say on this without big spoilers. Bobby, can you hint anything at this?

If A-net does take a break from scarlet they can continue a story that is less then half complete. For instance they could continue the story with the Modus Sceleris’s gang. I know they had plans for them, but they stopped for some apparent reason.

Lore matters; players ( money ) moving elsewhere because the story ( product) is nonsense ( unfit for purpose ) is a major business issue.

Darmikau.9413:

She can and should eventually be phased out, and will hopefully be lost to history as “that weird thing that happened once.” The true failure of Guild Wars 2’s writing won’t be in what Scarlet does (though what she does isn’t helping), it will be in how she is remembered. And if she or anything she has caused is remembered in any significant way, THEN she interferes with the natural foundations of the constructed world and becomes the subject of ire forever more.

Unfortunately, this is already a problem. Remember that there’s an entire dungeon path in Twilight Arbor now that will forever stand as a monument to Scarlet’s involvement in the world of Tyria. Also, apparently she appears in the Thaumanova Reactor fractal every time, not just the story instance. She’s here to stay, even after her arc is gone. She won’t get retconned, and I agree that this isn’t necessarily the answer. Hopefully ArenaNet is currently brainstorming a great twist that will somehow fix Scarlet’s ridiculous backstory and explain her past and future actions in a believable way, but I’m not counting on it. As has been said many times already, too much damage has already been done. It’s a big, lasting black mark on the lore of Guild Wars and we’re just going to have to deal with it. At this point, the only thing we can do is hope that the writers learn from their mistakes, and that they take the time to make sure they fully understand the complaints.

Scarlet Wars 2…..

Exodus.6957:

Scarlet Wars 2…..

Well… The logo is red. SHE’S BEEN THERE ALL ALONG!

Dunan Atreides.5436:

Hi Bobby.

My only disdain with lore in this update, is that discussion of the lore is being stifled because of the Scarlet Hate. There are IMO much more interesting reveals this update that are just utterly buried by the never-ending stream of scarlet vitriol.

Its well deserved “criticism” not vitriol when people have complained since day 1 about this…“Character” and are ignored but when people like yourself respond with praise for anet and claim all who against are just spewing vitriol and brush us off like were lesser humans it tend to lessen my respect for anet and you

If I’m correct Arenanet can do whatever they want with the story:

They could even pull an alternate Abbadon out of a Fractal containing his prison(since they won’t have us visit Abbadon’s defeat at the hands of the 5 Gods) and having him turn the Shiverpeaks to Bloodpeaks(like the Depths of Madness), turn the Kryta into a fleshy kingdom(like the Domain of Pain), fill Maguuma Jungle with Centipede bridges and headless Caterpillars(like the Domain of Fear) and fill Ascalon with Plinths straight from the Domain of Secrets.

I especially like the turn Shiverpeaks into Bloodpeaks idea myself…..

“If I’m correct Arenanet can do whatever they want with the story:”

You are correct. That doesn’t mean their fans will appreciate it.

The mere thought that Dessa and her krewe are part of a fractal itself (thus making the mistlock observatory a fractal) really has my interest piqued on Dessa’s background.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

If I’m correct Arenanet can do whatever they want with the story:

They could even pull an alternate Abbadon out of a Fractal containing his prison(since they won’t have us visit Abbadon’s defeat at the hands of the 5 Gods) and having him turn the Shiverpeaks to Bloodpeaks(like the Depths of Madness), turn the Kryta into a fleshy kingdom(like the Domain of Pain), fill Maguuma Jungle with Centipede bridges and headless Caterpillars(like the Domain of Fear) and fill Ascalon with Plinths straight from the Domain of Secrets.

I especially like the turn Shiverpeaks into Bloodpeaks idea myself…..

They can certainly do what ever they want with the story, and their obviously letting Angel do so, but they have to deal with the resulting fall out.
If the story is crap, people aren’t going to like it. If it continues being crap, people are going to leave, and Arena Net doesn’t want that.

Arewn.2368:

They can certainly do what ever they want with the story, and their obviously letting Angel do so, but they have to deal with the resulting fall out.
If the story is crap, people aren’t going to like it. If it continues being crap, people are going to leave, and Arena Net doesn’t want that.

There’s no need to call out specific people. They work as a team and it’s a collaborative effort between them. No one person is responsible for any failures of the story.

Cliff.8679:

Arewn.2368:

They can certainly do what ever they want with the story, and their obviously letting Angel do so, but they have to deal with the resulting fall out.
If the story is crap, people aren’t going to like it. If it continues being crap, people are going to leave, and Arena Net doesn’t want that.

There’s no need to call out specific people. They work as a team and it’s a collaborative effort between them. No one person is responsible for any failures of the story.

They’re collectively responsible for failure, sure.

Personally I would like to see Arenanet Steam Gate us to the past around the time of Zinn to fight whoever gave him corrupt Golems programmed to attack Tyria’s leaders(I’m assuming Scarlet since she’s the one with the most likely personality to even try such a thing).

It would be the perfect oppertunity for us to finally defeat Scarlet Briar once and for all!

Cliff.8679:

Arewn.2368:

They can certainly do what ever they want with the story, and their obviously letting Angel do so, but they have to deal with the resulting fall out.
If the story is crap, people aren’t going to like it. If it continues being crap, people are going to leave, and Arena Net doesn’t want that.

There’s no need to call out specific people. They work as a team and it’s a collaborative effort between them. No one person is responsible for any failures of the story.

They work as a team and they peer check their work, doesn’t change who did the work in the first place though.
And while what you said sounds ‘nice’, the people in charge of the story are certainly more responsible for the story then the rest of Arena Net.
If I have a problem with PvP, I look towards the PvP devs. If I have a problem with Dungeons, I look towards those devs. So why is it that if I have a problem with a certain piece of story, I can’t look at the devs/employees in charge of that?

Darmikau.9413:

BobbyStein.2315:

Hey, Dott. I get that you’re passionate about the game and that you’re not a fan of Scarlet but you’re not living up to the collaborative spirit of the forums. I’d take your feedback a lot more seriously if you weren’t so hostile and personal with your comments. Let’s keep things civil here.

Or you could let players express their frustrations in an impactful manner. I played Guild Wars 1 for 7 years and am passionate as hell about both it and Guild Wars 2, and I’m tired of every bit of real criticism being drowned in a shower of “let’s hold hands and work together.” People aren’t mad because they can’t be rational, people are mad because they try and level their complaints and get ignored until it’s too late.

The original designers of GW1 would be ashamed at what this game and your company have become. The fact of the matter is, you can phrase any argument as nicely as you like, but it all boils down to a few simple points: We don’t like Scarlet, we don’t like butchering Guild Wars’ vast and extensive history and world in favor of shoeing in steampunk-esque villains, and we don’t like the general direction this all has taken us. We want more of what Guild Wars 1 gave us. We want a rich world and a believable enemy. We want the dragons we were promised. We want to be heroes, not sidekicks to a menagerie cast of shallow “empowered” females. There’s so many ways that the community can and is willing to help, but none of it ever works if the only rhetoric that ever gets through is “you’re doing good and you’re so brave for coming to wade through these forums filled with hate.”

I almost never post on these forums because it’s so bogged down with this “collaborative” mindset that no real discussion is ever given just response. What is so hard or controversial about being real with your players? Eating criticism, not shunning it, should be part of your job. You’re in the career of writing, one of the most accessible outlets available. Not everyone can code, not everyone can design a game, but a great deal of people can write, and a great many of your players are writers and roleplayers themselves who come here to tell you where you’ve gone wrong because they understand the game and they understand good characters. When every legitimate argument they have is ignored, they get frustrated, and then the response is to ignore their frustration harder? Where does that take you?

The “collaborative mindset” is meant to be a positive thing for both the devs and the fans, and it boils down to not feeling entitled to lash out and be hostile to the developers just because you have a negative opinion of their work. Collaboration and sharing feedback will get positive changes made. Taking a stance of treating the ArenaNet staff as enemies makes it more difficult to communicate and it means that they can’t have meaningful discussions with us. The CDI threads have been full of useful discussion between the writers, the other developers, and the fans; don’t disdain it just because they don’t ask how high when you demand that they jump.

In this thread alone we have people expressing frustration because ArenaNet won’t just follow what they think is obvious and correct feedback—they see it as stubbornness when at the same time none of us can even agree on what exactly ANet should realistically be doing inside of extremely broad categories (it’s all well and good to say that they should go back to GW1 lore, for instance, but it’s not going to happen in the next patch).

I don’t always agree with the direction the writers take the story, but in your post you imply that they’ve ruined their own lore and insinuate that anyone could do their job. It’s not their job to roll over and take blatant insults under the guise of feedback, especially since it’s entirely unnecessary to say that kind of thing to get a point across. What kind of information does that give them aside from “I’m angry”? What does that actually accomplish? If you want to see things changed for the better, collaborating with the developers respectfully (as I sincerely hope that you would with any other adult in a professional context) is going to help. Trying to make them feel bad for not doing what you’d like them to is just a thinly-veiled excuse to vent.

Bonefield.9813:

Darmikau.9413:

BobbyStein.2315:

Hey, Dott. I get that you’re passionate about the game and that you’re not a fan of Scarlet but you’re not living up to the collaborative spirit of the forums. I’d take your feedback a lot more seriously if you weren’t so hostile and personal with your comments. Let’s keep things civil here.

[rage]

[snip]

+1 for that well written response to that comment.

I know they said they had Scarlet planned out as early as the elections, but what they didn’t say was that she was necessary to both sides. Maybe there were two villains planned, and Scarlet was the one assigned to that arc, while another with a whole different living story arc was planned in the event of a win by Evon. never know… but that might mean that Scarlet would not be in an Abaddon fractal.

It might also mean that we’ll see that arc next, with an eventual Abaddon fractal.

Or maybe I’m just hoping someone will still give us an Abaddon fractal.

Now, for my two cents’: While spamming cannon shots at Zhaitan was lame, I’d be perfectly willing to do the same to Scarlet. For some reason I just relish the idea of blasting her with a large cannon.

BobbyStein.2315:

Eluveitie.1290:

This would give a lot of people peace of mind, Bobby, I hope you respond: is the end of Scarlet’s arch already on its way?

I mentioned this elsewhere on the forums, but I’ll say it here again. There is an end to the Scarlet story that has been planned out. I’m not at liberty to discuss release dates or the timeline, though.

Just to do a little bit of Sherlocking here Bobby…

If the plot is 4 months out of date due to development times.

And in your own words… “There is an end to the Scarlet story that has been -planned- out.”

Can I successfully deduce from this that you just slipped that the end hasn’t been developed yet and is still therefore within the planning stages. And by the 3 to 4 month delay implied above… This means that there is the potential for at least 5 more months worth of scarlet content to come.

Bonefield.9813:

The “collaborative mindset” is meant to be a positive thing for both the devs and the fans, and it boils down to not feeling entitled to lash out and be hostile to the developers just because you have a negative opinion of their work. Collaboration and sharing feedback will get positive changes made. Taking a stance of treating the ArenaNet staff as enemies makes it more difficult to communicate and it means that they can’t have meaningful discussions with us. The CDI threads have been full of useful discussion between the writers, the other developers, and the fans; don’t disdain it just because they don’t ask how high when you demand that they jump.

In this thread alone we have people expressing frustration because ArenaNet won’t just follow what they think is obvious and correct feedback—they see it as stubbornness when at the same time none of us can even agree on what exactly ANet should realistically be doing inside of extremely broad categories (it’s all well and good to say that they should go back to GW1 lore, for instance, but it’s not going to happen in the next patch).

I don’t always agree with the direction the writers take the story, but in your post you imply that they’ve ruined their own lore and insinuate that anyone could do their job. It’s not their job to roll over and take blatant insults under the guise of feedback, especially since it’s entirely unnecessary to say that kind of thing to get a point across. What kind of information does that give them aside from “I’m angry”? What does that actually accomplish? If you want to see things changed for the better, collaborating with the developers respectfully (as I sincerely hope that you would with any other adult in a professional context) is going to help. Trying to make them feel bad for not doing what you’d like them to is just a thinly-veiled excuse to vent.

It’s not like people are saying everything is bad, Scarlet aside, I found the new fractal to be very interesting and well written (and gameplay-wise, very fun). It’s the fact that a very specific piece of criticism that has been cried from the rooftops and explored in great detail by large numbers of players consistently for several months (which in GW2’s case, encompasses half a dozen updates) has been utterly ignored that is the problem.
And his point about other people being able to do their job is simply this: The people at Arena Net are professional writers who are highly enthused by Guild Wars, but several of their players are also professional writers who are highly enthused by Guild Wars and are offering critical and well thought out input. In fact if I’m not mistaken, Angel McCoy is a GuildWars1 player-kitten -GW2writer herself (I’ve been reading some of her interviews lately to get more insight on the matter). It wasn’t an attempt to make them sound disposable or bad, but simply looking at the reality that they are amongst many other talented people in this world.

ThiBash.5634:

BobbyStein.2315:

Fractal work started back in August, which is when players first encountered Scarlet and around when the votes were tallied.

That makes sense…I suppose the story is among the first things to be developed and once it gets underway, ít’s basically too late to change things.

You would be wrong to assume this. I explain why. A couple of months ago two popular tv series had their finale. Breaking Bad and Dexter. The writers from both those shows had two different approaches.

The Dexter writers stuck to what was planned a long time ago and unfortunately the finale was not very well received.

The Breaking Bad writers were much more flexible, they got together constantly and adjusted the script as they went along. The end result was a truly great piece of writing. The numerous rewards reflected that.

Just because a story has be planned out does not mean you need to stick to it. Removing Scarlet’s cameo appearance in the Thaumanova reactor would of been a step in the right direction.

Thobek.1730:

You would be wrong to assume this. I explain why. A couple of months ago two popular tv series had their finale. Breaking Bad and Dexter. The writers from both those shows had two different approaches.

But writing in a TV series is completely different than video game writing. In a video game they have create the models and skins months in advance and they have to record the voice actors months before the patch comes out.

Finnway.2183:

Thobek.1730:

You would be wrong to assume this. I explain why. A couple of months ago two popular tv series had their finale. Breaking Bad and Dexter. The writers from both those shows had two different approaches.

But writing in a TV series is completely different than video game writing. In a video game they have create the models and skins months in advance and they have to record the voice actors months before the patch comes out.

If they started work on the fractal in august (as they recently stated they did), the part where they actually implemented Scarlet in there was far off from August.

Finnway.2183:

Thobek.1730:

You would be wrong to assume this. I explain why. A couple of months ago two popular tv series had their finale. Breaking Bad and Dexter. The writers from both those shows had two different approaches.

But writing in a TV series is completely different than video game writing. In a video game they have create the models and skins months in advance and they have to record the voice actors months before the patch comes out.

The Scarlet model/skin was already made, it was a simple case of just removing her from the fractal dungeon. She is not liked and having her the cause of everything is wearing a bit thin with some people.

This fractal has been in the works for months now, the countless ‘I hate scarlet’ threads have been around since her arrival and are picking up in frequency. Plenty of time to simply remove a small part of the fractal.

BobbyStein.2315:

Dunan Atreides.5436:

My only disdain with lore in this update, is that discussion of the lore is being stifled because of the Scarlet Hate. There are IMO much more interesting reveals this update that are just utterly buried by the never-ending stream of scarlet vitriol.

True.

Related to your comment, what reveals resonated with you?

I also want to hear about these “reveals” from Dunan Atreides. What did I miss that was so revealing to the mystery of the Thaumanova Reactor??

Bonefield.9813:

snip

The “collaborative mindset” is meant to be a positive thing which, in reality, just serves as a mediator to shut down criticism. Inflammatory remarks and direct insults don’t do a thing, sure, and that’s what the collaboration should be for. In practical use I only ever see “collaboration” as an excuse to avoid criticism while appearing to acknowledge the concern. Constructive feedback gets muddled because if it ever contains any hint of emotion or annoyance, the development team can invoke “collaborative spirit” and completely ignore valid criticisms under the guise that the post is “hurtful.” If you want an example of a thriving community that doesn’t need to hide behind the veil just take a look at League of Legends. Even Guild Wars 2 shares a lot of direction decisions with LoL because it’s the most successful game recently. Whether or not you like the game or the company, the fact is that Riot eats kitten on their forums and throws kitten back when they need to. They’re real with their players and actually get good dialogue going without trying to maintain superiority, and it works. Here’s the problem:

What the original poster said was that Bobby and the team should be fired, for reason quote: “Bobby and his buddies only know one way to advance the “plot” at this point:
SCARLET DID IT.”

Bobby invokes collaborative spirit because of the inflammatory response. That’s fair. What’s not fair is that he fails to address the criticism which is completely valid. From a player perspective, “SCARLET DID IT.” is absolutely how the current Living Story and lore feels right now. This isn’t something a writer or anyone trying to take feedback should ignore. If I were in charge, I wouldn’t ignore a comment like “SCARLET DID IT.” because it was inflammatory, I would feel insulted or hurt and try to understand what makes someone who I would hope enjoys my stories feel that way. Being angry shouldn’t be a thought-ending process, being angry should be a cause for concern and encourage more dialogue.

You have to understand that the people who come to places like the forums to vent are passionate about the game. They love the game. People who hate the game quit. People who love the game come to the forums to complain because they want the game to be better. Criticism has absolutely nothing to do with buzzwords like “entitlement”. Players who paid for this game and want to invest their time in it are absolutely entitled to want to make it better. For as much as you’d like to say some remarks treat Anet like the enemy, telling players they can’t respond unless their posts are “nice” is treating a player as an enemy all the same. They’re literally saying “if you say something mean, you’re an enemy to development” which is absolutely untrue, because there are a great many people with tons of perfectly valid feedback who are upset at the direction of the game and want to vent.

And, honestly, anger is part of telling someone they’ve done something wrong. In a lot of ways respectful collaboration, while preferable, simply doesn’t get a point across. It says “I don’t like this, here what I think would be better.” It doesn’t say “you’re wrong.” And, if it isn’t obvious from all the dialogue going on, a great number of players thing everyhting that has happened with Scarlet is simply “wrong.” And it’s very hard to convey that without some level of emotion. I get that in a perfect world we’d all collaborate nicely, but the fact to face is that when people constantly try and give feedback and nothing changes, people get mad. It’s been months now that people have been fed up with Scarlet, and there’s no sign of her going anywhere. You don’t think people are going to be angry?

In the end, the fact is that people are going to angry and vent. If it’s just mindless spam, then perhaps telling them to take it somewhere else is reasonable. But when people make legitimate criticisms, even if they’re inflammatory, they’re still valid and should be addressed. The mindset that nothing can be achieved without mutual respect isn’t quite right. If there’s absolutely a need for collaborative development, then there are other places to go. I’ve seen a whole lot of Bobby asking for feedback, and not a lot of Bobby telling us what HE thinks. Why don’t we hear some justification from Anet’s side and really get dialogue going?

Thobek.1730:

This fractal has been in the works for months now, the countless ‘I hate scarlet’ threads have been around since her arrival and are picking up in frequency. Plenty of time to simply remove a small part of the fractal.

In a video game it’s not as easy as it is in a movie because you have multiple people working on projects simultaneously. There are multiple teams working on code, 3D models, textures, concept art, and voice acting. By making a small change you’re potentially screwing over a team.

They can’t change things “last minute” and they’ve already said they plan things out 4 months in advance. At this point the end of Scarlett’s arc is planned out, and we have maybe 3-4 months more.

Finnway.2183:

Thobek.1730:

This fractal has been in the works for months now, the countless ‘I hate scarlet’ threads have been around since her arrival and are picking up in frequency. Plenty of time to simply remove a small part of the fractal.

In a video game it’s not as easy as it is in a movie because you have multiple people working on projects simultaneously. There are multiple teams working on code, 3D models, textures, concept art, and voice acting. By making a small change you’re potentially screwing over a team.

They can’t change things “last minute” and they’ve already said they plan things out 4 months in advance. At this point the end of Scarlett’s arc is planned out, and we have maybe 3-4 months more.

Bit of self-inconsistency here. I’m not contesting the fact that they plan things several months in advanced, but if that’s the case we should be seeing the conclusion soon, not 3-4 months from now (discounting christmas patches).

how old is scarlet anyway? must be less then 20 years. I think the pale tree is 20 years old. Never did fractals but I heared she pop in the last fractals update, she even was alive back then?… not to mention if was the abandon fractals, lol. fractals suppose to be old?.. I’m bad at lore :/

I would like for someone at ArenaNer answer to something though, if Evon had won, Would Scarlet have been involved with that fractal too.

Because if the answer to that is no, then I sort of can see it… Scarlet has heavy Inquest and Asura ties. So it is conceivable that she may have actually been there. However, if the answer to the question above is yes. Then there are only two conclusions to be made, either Scarlet is a time bending half-god or she wasn’t really at Thaumanova now and she simply invaded Dessa’s recreation of those events through the mists.

I don’t like the idea that she was actually there in the reactor to be honest. But like I said it is conceivable (assuming the timeline fits with the Sylvari). I am not a big lore person but in this case I would much rather Scarlet simply be taking a stroll through the mists than that she was actually present.

Ironically if we had gotten Evon’s fractal and she had been there we would pretty much already know that she was messing with the mists and not actually there. Seeing as how the Aetherblade fractal is also not an exact recreation it is possible that Scarlet can sneak in through a back door but it is not possible for her to actually have been that far in the past (there is one instance of time travel in the Asura Personal Story, but even then is it more of travel between different timelines and an alternate realities than through linear timeline).

keep her out of the christmas event please

After Scarlet’s done let’s replace her with an Alternate Abaddon from a Realm of Torment Fractal and have his twist Maguuma Jungle, Kingdom of Kryta, Ascalon and Shiverpeaks into Maguuma Jungle of Fear, Kryta Fleshy Kingdom of Pain, Ascalon land of Secrets and Bloodpeaks of Madness respectively….

Dr Ritter.1327:

keep her out of the christmas event please

My sincerest hopes are that for the month of December, we get our WvW Edge of the Mists update, we get our Christmas update, and nothing else. Just let us mess around with Tixx for December.
Then in the month of January, we get two patches through which we finish up this whole Scarlet thing. Direct and to the point, reveal what’s left to be revealed, have our “grand confrontation”, and be done with her. PERMANENTLY.
Then we can finally move on to greener pastures, maybe actually get back to the point of GW2 and start gearing up for the campaign against the next Elder Dragon or something.

Dr Ritter.1327:

keep her out of the christmas event please

The decision to make Scarlet the new Grinch would have taken place three-and-a-half months ago. If they did so, there is NO STOPPING this train wreck now.

BobbyStein.2315:

We look at as much feedback as we’re able and take it under consideration when planning our updates. Understand that what you’re seeing on live was under way four months prior.

Like I said, I understand what you meant (the first time too). If a release isn’t recieved well, you cannot make changes to the next release…it’ll be changes to the nextnextnext release at best.

What I was curious about is wheter or not the negative response of Scarlet has in any way affected your (far-)future plans (don’t need details because I know you’re not allowed/able to give them yet:) )

Bobby, the issue is that you keep teleporting Scarlet away from things, and what you end up with is a lot of meaningless farewells and promises for the future. It makes the character seem ridiculous and annoying.

Give us meat, give us actual characterisation. Not everyone wants story so give it to us in an optional format that doesn’t involve rushing between mob pulls, because what you end up with is disjointed and empty.

Work out a way that we can actually communicate with Scarlet beyond her running away monologue-ing at us. Fractals was the ideal platform as we could have met her prior to her plans, but it’s still doable. Let us talk to pre-Scarlet, or let us see her making her alliances, or just give us something that let’s us see her in a situation other than “I’ll get you next time Gadget”.

We get it, she’s building a reactor, molten metal, toxic battery, aetherblade shielding. Thermonova actually confirmed a lot that people were theorizing about, but until you guys justify the character by actually showing (those that want to see) how Scarlet could actually do any of the things she’s supposed to of done, and/or what she was like before- most people are just going to be annoyed regardless.

What if: Instead of Scarlet appearing for 5 seconds and monologue-ing at the end of the fractal we were escorted through the instance by a young Sylvari called Ceara. Fresh out of the academy we and Ceara battle through the facility to get her to the core, that she explains she has the knowledge to prevent from going supernova.

She helps us with tips for the puzzles, and explains why a Sylvari is in a place you’d expect only to have Asura (actually get some of that short story in to the game).

You battle the anomaly with Ceara’s help. She explains that the facility was built too close to magic laylines, and future facilities should be built as far away as possible.

You bid the helpful Sylvari farewell, and are able to talk to her after the rest of the party leaves for some backstory/foreshadowing.

Risingashes.8694:

What if: Instead of Scarlet appearing for 5 seconds and monologue-ing at the end of the fractal we were escorted through the instance by a young Sylvari called Ceara. Fresh out of the academy we and Ceara battle through the facility to get her to the core, that she explains she has the knowledge to prevent from going supernova.

She helps us with tips for the puzzles, and explains why a Sylvari is in a place you’d expect only to have Asura (actually get some of that short story in to the game).

You battle the anomaly with Ceara’s help. She explains that the facility was built too close to magic laylines, and future facilities should be built as far away as possible.

You bid the helpful Sylvari farewell, and are able to talk to her after the rest of the party leaves for some backstory/foreshadowing.

That is quite an impressive, quickly constructed, and well-thought out idea. Very nice.