I wasn’t sure whether to make a new thread or just bump an old one but eh.
So anyways, I’m postulating upon the relations between the Molten Alliance (dredge/Flame Legion alliance) to the Destroyers, and to the title of the storyline “Flame and Frost.”
Where Destroyers Come In
Since the beginning, it was speculated that Primordus/Destroyers may be involved. I hold three points of influence towards that notion.
Fused Weapons
This is perhaps the most obvious of the settings. The Fused weapons have the appearance very similar to Destroyer weapons except for two things: they have animations (both the “lava” within moves as well as having a fiery effect to them) and they have dredge design metallic parts. This is quite interesting given how we have two cases of Flame Legion weaponry – Molten weapons and Flame weapons – neither of which resemble the Fused weapons, despite the former (Molten) coming from Citadel of Flames.
Not to mention – and this is a bit minor – that the Vigil show interest in the weapons according to Braham after saving Cragstead.
“Godforged” Dredge
In one of the dead drops, you learn that the Flame Legion shamans are practicing “Baelfire rituals” and, furthermore, that they’re putting moletariate-chosen dredge under rituals that turn them like their own Godforged and Shamans.
For those unknowing – the Godforged are/were selected shamans who served Gaheron and underwent self-mutilating rituals to turn their bodies into the fiery abominations we see them as, with claws, gut, and/or eyes on fire.
With The Razing, we can witness these dredge as well – they may appear at the end of invasion events as veterans, and there’s one in the North Nolan Hatchery. One of the random lines said when you may encounter them is “Burn! Burn! Buuuuuuurn!” (number of u’s may vary from actual number).
It has long been suspected by myself and others that these rituals may be tied to Primordus. These dredges’ reactions are, in my opinion, further proof of this as the mentality presented by these dredge are rather what one would expect from a speaking minion of Primordus.
Destroyer Cores
From the bags of the high level enemies, one of the possible drops is a Destroyer Core – myself, a guildie, and said guildie’s friend each got one when doing the North Nolan Hatchery instance.
Not Behind the Alliance
It should be noted, however, that there is a dead drop which contemplates on the alliance’s origins and mentions that it is not due to desperation or minions of Primordus. Which means any influence with destroyers is them proactively interacting with, and not the destroyers bringing reason to cause an alliance.
“Flame” and “Frost”
On initial view, one may believe that Flame refers to the Flame Legion and Frost refer to the dredge, the latter more due to their placement in the Shiverpeaks more than anything else. However, I believe that the “Flame” represents not the Flame Legion, but the Molten Alliance on the whole. There’s very little that’s ice-themed about the dredge, and the alliance has nothing but fire-based materials going about – be it the aforementioned Fused weapons, or, well, anything else!
However, and most importantly there’s a very interesting line brought up by Eir in this third installment (when Braham goes to see Knut Whitebear – Eir leaves the instance so its hard to catch; I only did due to screenshotting everything and reading after).
“Hoelbrak hasn’t seen an influx of refugees like this since the dragon’s last flight. We’re overwhelmed just trying to heal, feed, and shelter them. Many have now moved into lodges. The extra road traffic has stirred up the Svanir.”
On top of this, there are Molten Alliance listening devices near Svanir’s Dome (if not other Svanir settlements), so they’re antagonizing the Molten Alliance just as much as the other charr and norn.
I suspect we’ll see a “reaction” from the Sons of Svanir later on either in this installment, or next. Either way, here’s hoping.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I was about to ask about this as well. One thing I don’t think you have mentioned is that there is tension between the dredge and FL. I forget which dead-drop says it, but one of them mentions that they are probably being forced into this alliance by something. I may have misread something somewhere.
Also, I think it was also mentioned in the same dead-drop that the Shamans did not want to share their magic with the Dredge, yet they still are doing the ritual.
It’s been said in one of the dead drops there’s no sign of Primordius minions forcing this.
Forgot one other point. Hah.
From the high level bags that these dredge and Flame Legion drop, one of the possible drops is a Destroyer Core.
@Bunny: Yeah, there is tension (there’s three or so dead drops hinting/outright stating this) and there are some shamans who don’t want to give the magic (said shaman got burned alive), though that wasn’t really the focus of my post. My focus was two-fold:
@Tobias: Yes, and if you read my post in full, you’ll see that I mention that dead drop. But just because destroyers didn’t make the alliance to occur doesn’t mean they’re not related in some means.
As it stands, I think there’s too many nods to destroyers to say they’re unrelated completely.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
@Tobias: Yes, and if you read my post in full, you’ll see that I mention that dead drop. But just because destroyers didn’t make the alliance to occur doesn’t mean they’re not related in some means.
Or will be related in the future, agreed. However, I fully expect what we’ll see is the dredge deciding to split with the Flame Legion after learning enough about their secret magic OR the Flame Legion pilfering design blueprints for dredge tech and deciding to break the alliance themselves.
These two groups are so xenophobic it’s a wonder they haven’t turned on each other yet.
Though, I think what we should all be worried about is this “Kom-pew” something. If the Asura have not made things like this yet, they are to be feared. xD
Well, the asura already have made “kom-pew”ters – all those terminals and the like. They’re just not called computers… I think.
However, I don’t think the Flame and dredge will disband in part 4. Not without it being due to us kicking their rears. I have a feeling that something’s forcing them together – specifically, this “personal nemesis” mentioned before. They’re going to remain a united threat as long as needed (be the ones needing be whatever causes their uniting in the first place, or ArenaNet). Furthermore, I doubt we’ll just see these events disappear in smoke. They wouldn’t have made homesteads and ranches just for 2-3 months, I dare say, so while not everything will be available in the long run I’m sure a good number of the content will be.
I’m hoping its the dwarves forcing the two to combine forces.
I’m hoping its the dwarves forcing the two to combine forces.
Unless their group mind, if I remember that right anyway (it’s been awhile since I played that part of gw1), changed over the last 200+ years, the only thing the stone dwarves care about is the total destruction of the destroyers and Primordius. I don’t see them getting involved unless something really bad is going down between the Molten Alliance and Primy.
If that is true though, what’s with the sudden change of mind? It’s been states by numerous npcs, that the Dredge are trying to move to the surface, or “pull an Asura”. Most likely to escape the increasing presence of Primy and his/its(?) destroyers in the depths of Tyria.
Hopefully the Alliance is just an alliance of convenience, and not something stupid like: “Hey! Lets harness the powers of an Elder Dragon and its minions, because we know nothing bad can come from that…”. Accidently created a mechanical Charr destroyer abomination… with a sonic cannon attachment!
The dwarves’ mentality is more of “destroy the dragons” rather than just “destroy Primordus” – it’s probably that Primordus was the first and most personal with the dwarves that they just focused on him, and because everyone else abandoned the dwarves they’ve been fighting alone for 200 years.
True.
They were pretty single minded after the rite was first performed. Maybe once the effects of the Rite of the Great Dwarf settled in, they were able to gain some sense of individuality back. Ogden seemed to anyway, in that he isn’t talking like a Borg drone…
Their agenda is still the destruction of the dragons, but they are now able to use their group mind to full effect, instead of just using it to move tactical against the destroyers. Them sending Ogden to the Priory was probably the best move they did. It will be interesting to finally see them again. Weird, but interesting.
I may be missing something, but I didn’t know that the dwarves sent Ogden Stonehealer. I was always under the ASSUMPTION that he came there of his own accord. This lead me to believe that he put himself under some sort of enchantment or such that allowed him to retain his mind while taking on the form of a stone dwarf. As I am saying this, though, I realize I have no proof of this thought process I had, just a theory, nothing more.
I don’t think it’s ever said whether Ogden remained due to being sent to the surface or of his own violition. What is known is that he remained on the surface to “tell the tale” as he puts it (during norn lvl 28 Vigil storyline – I think it’s the 28 one, whichever one has you defending Ogden, Vigil option!).
He doesn’t make mention of any resistence to the mind mentality change, so I thought there wasn’t one – and that his single-mindedness for hunting dragons it geared towards “get those lazy bums off their butts to fight the dragons too!” It still fits their mentality, it’s just a different direction – and take note that in GW1 there were stone dwarves who were focused on protecting Glint’s baby and another collecting destroyer bits for armor – neither are a direct kill the dragon! mentality. Oddly enough, only Jalis had a “come here dragons and I shall spank ye buttocks!” mentality that everyone attributes to all stone dwarves.
I’m sorry Konig, but if I remember right, when you actually fight the mission where you protect Glint’s Baby, the dwarves in the room with you are all still fleshy. I never noted mr. destroyer-bits-for-armor though, mainly because I never got them, so I’ll cede that one to ya.
If you click the links, you’ll clearly see the stone dwarves I refer to. Consular Brand Oakencask and Consular Rahburt, the dwarves who inform you about Glint’s Challenge are stone.
I guess I stated it weirdly, probably should have expanded on that as well, when I said, “Them sending Ogden to the Priory…”, and I’m sorry for that. I meant that in the sense that, while he decided to go to the Priory on his own, it was probably with the support of the other dwarves of the collective dwarf mind, since it served a duel purpose.
Ogden can use the Priory’s resources for his own research on the Elder Dragon, and the elder races that fought against them. He is also one of the top members of the Priory, the seat of intellectual knowledge of Tyria, meaning he can read up on and review most of their research, especially the reports regarding the dragons.
The wouldn’t mean much if he was an average person, but Ogden is a member of a collective consciousness. A collective consciousness made up of a race actively fighting against an Elder Dragon, and also the best craftsmen Tyria has ever know. What they could possibly do with the knowledge of the Priory is mind boggling…
Though of course, the last part is all wild speculation of mine, since I doubt they are going to turn the dwarves in fantasy Borg. No matter how much fun that would be.
In the end, while the dwarves might have gained a sense of individuality back, they are still a single part of a whole. That being the collective consciousness. All thoughts and actions probably lead to a single destination… the total destruction of the Elder Dragons.
Whether that would be saving Glint’s babies… Future possibly allies against the dragons.
Or collecting destroyer cores… Which can be researched to help craft better weapons to be used against them.
(edited by Erukk.1408)
I believe you’re under the assumption that the dwarves seem to have a mental connection – sharing each others’ thoughts more or less – but we don’t really have any reason to believe this. They just hold a shared mentality – a mental process, rather than the same thoughts. We’re told that the Great Dwarf is a collective consciousness, but how we see this “collective consciousness” is just that they’re all focused on the same goal with the same line of thought, not the same thoughts.
Total speculation, here, but might Primordus be backing the Flame Legion without them knowing? I mean, they THINK they’re still worshiping the Titans, blah blah, but they have to be getting their magic from somewhere, and Primo is way more local than the remaining Titans.
It’s entirely possible that the alliance formed to give both the dredge and FL a foothold to escape the stone dwarves, since the dredge hate, and fear the dwarves – former slave owners, remember? – and if Primo is backing the FL, THEY may not know that, but there’s no reason to think the dwarves wouldn’t. Especially since they’re pretty much devoted to chasing down his minions and destroying them.
It’s clear either way, though, that the alliance is hugely beneficial to both races; xenophobic they may be, but the dredge are pretty technology-exclusive – not a lot of magic – and the FL is totally bereft of technology since the schism between them and the Iron Legion. Combining their forces gives them the advantages of both magic and technology, which is the position the FL previously enjoyed, and one the dredge have always envied.
Granted, it gives them a host of new enemies, but doesn’t every decision have consequences? The alliance arguably gives them both more than sufficient advantage to overcome their xenophobia.
Also, I would argue against the notion that they’re being OPPOSED by Primo and his minions, because if that were the case, the dredge would have been far more interested in aligning with the Svanir than FL – Destroyers are immune to burning. FL brings advantages affecting pretty much everyone BUT Primo’s minions.
Just the fact of the fire aspect of things would lead me to think that the whole Molten Alliance has to be pretty hostile to the Svanir, though, and I would be interested to see if the Svanir start to aggro MA critters when they spawn, and vice versa. Just because Primordus and Jormag are both dragons doesn’t mean they – or their minions – particularly get along with one another, and those two seem more diametrically opposed to each other than any of the others.
In fact, that may be a proximate cause for the alliance – Primo may be feeding the MA power and magic as a means of gaining advantage against Jormag. Remember, other than “they wreck stuff,” we don’t yet truly know anything about the actual motivations of the Great Dragons; we know they’re really dangerous, tough as hell, immensely destructive, and actively hostile to the player races, but that’s pretty much it – and I’m sure anything with the intellect to plan the way Zhaitan demonstrated has more than enough brainpower to have more on the ball than “wreck stuff, just because.”
If there’s some form of score-keeping between the dragons, or rivalries we’re not aware of, Jormag seems a natural target for Primo, and what better way to screw with a competitor than by undermining and weakening his minions through unsuspecting proxies?
TL;DR: Primordus is bankrolling the Molten Alliance as a means of, at a minimum, tweaking Jormag in the wobbly bits.
I am looking forward to seeing where this storyline goes, quite a lot.
One small correction, Will. The FL stopped worshipping the titans after they were destroyed in 1072 AE. They made a half-kittened, desperate attempt to make the destroyers their new gods, but fortunately they failed miserably at it. In the next following decades they reverted back to worshipping the unknown “fire gods” of the charr (Ghost of Ascalon, when Ember tells the story of the Fireshadows and the siege of Ascalon City there is a line from the then FL imperator – whose name has been mercilessly removed from history for his utter failure – making a reference to “gods”), and now they thought and seemingly still think Baelfire was their god – or at least was worthy to ascend to godhood.
I’ve been speculating that the Flame Legion were drawing power from – but not worshiping – Primordus since the 2009 trailer. And my beliefs have only been redoubled since release, and even now. In fact, trying to obtain power from Primordus/destroyers is the biggest reason I can think of for the Molten Alliance – since the dredge (or some of them) seemingly want to control destroyers.
However, I don’t think the stone dwarves are related to this. The dredge have repeatedly stated that Ogden is the last living dwarf – so whether or not they’re right, that’s what they believe. And I cannot see the stone dwarves doing an about face to head towards the surface and fight someone who’s trying to utilize their main target, when said someone isn’t actively after the dwarves. With how single-minded the dwarves have become, it seems more likely that they’ll just push harder against Primordus should they learn of someone utilizing the dragon’s power.
However, all this said, I’d like to point out a few things:
1) The destroyers are indeed hostile to dredge and the dredge view them as both a threat and a tool.
2) Primordus doesn’t seem caring for living servants. Jormag’s fully unique in this. So I can’t see Primordus proactively giving the Molten Alliance power.
3) The dragons are enemies, so the Svanir would naturally be enemies to the Molten Alliance should the MA be powered by Primordus – but Primordus wouldn’t go sending the MA to face Svanir. Furthermore, as I pointed out in the OP, the Svanir are already getting stirred up.
4) I disagree with not knowing the “actual motivations” of the Elder Dragons – the actions and sayings of their minions give us a pretty good understanding. They seem first and foremost interested in two things: 1) Eating, 2) Spreading their corruption. Not so much “Wreck It, Dragon” as much as “I’ll make everything mine.” – From there, it differs on each dragon, where they each seem to hold a preference in how to corrupt, what to corrupt, and why corrupt it. But going into that is all off-topic and there are other, albeit old, threads for such.
Granted, it gives them a host of new enemies,
Not really, actually. The dredge already counted as enemies the norn, the charr, Lion’s Arch, and the Priory (and, by extension, the Pact). The Flame Legion’s primary enemies were the other legions and the Pact. The forces opposing the Molten Alliance are basically charr, norn, and the Pact (regarding Logan, Caithe and Zojja here as an extension of the Pact here, which I think is fair enough) – much the same ranks of enemies that they had before. If they’re getting more attention now, it’s because they’re getting closer to achieving their objectives and that’s put them higher on the priority list of their existing enemies.
Where did the dredge consider Lion’s Arch an enemy? I must have missed that.
But they did gain the Order of Whispers and Vigil’s attention.
Furthermore, not by extension the Pact. As shown by Smodur (if you’re already a Commander, you can access the off-limits quorum) who says to you “shouldn’t you be fighting dragons” – the reason why CoF was assaulted by the Pact was because, according to Rytlock, there was a weapon believed to be useful against the Elder Dragons. The Pact’s sole interest is fighting the Elder Dragons, or finding means to fight the Elder Dragons. So the orders’ enemies != the Pact’s enemies.
After its initiation, the Pact seems to have become its own organization that’s just manned by folks who are also in the Priory, Whispers, or Vigil.
The Vigil, Priory, and Whispers who are working on the Molten Alliance issue aren’t part of the Pact.
The only dredge-Lion’s Arch conflict I can think of is where they burrowed out into the pass guarded by the Lionguard of Junction Haven in southeast Gendarran, and are now fighting them over it… Is that what you meant, draxynnic?
I think one of the keys to exactly what the Molten Alliance is trying to do is what they are doing with the prisoners, which hopefully we will learn soon. Both the Charr and the Norn expect that their respective capitols are the true target of the Molten Alliance and that could be true but I suspect there is more going on than that. Many of the hints we have been getting suggest the Molten Alliance actually has a substancial presence beneath the ground.
I do suspect that the Molten Alliance are proxies to another group or person. There alliance is pretty unnatural and sounds like it has some opposition within its own ranks. The two groups have also intergrated suprisingly quickly. There is an endgame here that I dont think we have seen yet and I suspect that it might not be what the Molten Alliance actually expects it to be.
Theres alot of questions and not many answers yet. Never the less, Ive found it interesting to see how the two races are struggling to deal with this foe in their own ways. The norn lack an effective organised response since they dont really have an organised army.
The Charr on the other hand are have the firepower but lack a target. This seems to be causing big problems stratigicly. They arent facing an open war or a predictable foe and as such lack the ability to bring all their strength to bare. As a result they are force to either spread thin and take losses to focused attacks or bunker down in defensive locations.
Hmm…
Do we know any organizations, groups, or entities that could pull off an manipulation of this scale off? Getting the Dredge to attack the Norn, or the FL to attack the Charr, is one thing, but getting them to do it together, at the same time, would take a big outside influence.
It’s hard to make too many predictions, since gw2 is relatively new, and we don’t know many bad guys outside the racial ones and the dragons. The bad guy(s) pulling the strings could be anyone or a total unknown.
Though, I kind of hope we don’t find out, since the living stories could use a constant antagonist. Bad Guy of the month, or months in this case, would get pretty old. If it’s going to be a living story, I’d rather it follow an actually story arc. Us having a set antagonist outside the Elder Dragons would help said story arc. It would also give us something to do between dragons as well.
Maybe sprinkle a few clues for us lore nerds, but save the actually identity for later, after further use.
I agree. ANet tends to like overarching plots, not to mention that having the climactic reveal of the puppet master, most likely by way of an initial encounter, in addition to storming the brand new headquarters, and facing down this new weapon, and learning about the captives, and continuing Rox and Braham’s character arcs, and handling any other surprises that might be thrown our way, is a lot to squeeze into one update, especially compared to how bite-size the last three have been. The way I expect the finale next month will go down is with a combined assault on the Molten headquarters, facing down the new super-weapon and rescuing/discovering the fate of the prisoners (I’ve a suspicion that they’re being sacrificed to make this weapon/s; after all, the Flame Legion has done such before). After it/they have been destroyed, the tension between the dredge and the Flame Legion might boil over and cause them to go their separate ways, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they remained a unified, existential threat, with only their immediate expansion brought to a halt. Similarly, I doubt we will find out why they are working together, or indeed whether somebody is pulling the strings at all.
And then again, I really don’t know more about it than any of you. I could be completely wrong here. The only thing I can be certain of is that I’m going to be keeping a very careful eye on Southsun Cove these coming weeks.
As for the Frost of the name… one of the dead drops says that the Alliance is spreading every direction but north. That is, every direction but the ice dragon’s territory. I know that it has been said that neither destroyers nor desperation caused this alliance- can we discount icebrood?
Flame legion shamans started to worhisp destroyers at the end of GW1 but they’ve failed with that and the destroyers killed many of the shamans. Not an option.
So drege tech fueled by flame legion magic, and the combined potency has emboldened them into going on the offensive? And said offensive ends up ticking off the Sons into retaliation, with the locals finding themselves caught in the middle…
As for worshiping, nah. But it could be that the drege picked up some insights from a certain Inquest project regarding the harnessing of dragon magical energy…
Since we are talking about them, I thought Id quote the Dead Drops directly:
- The dredge and Flame Legion fought today. Cracks in the partnership are showing. Even in victory, they’re uneasy among each other. I’m trying to learn more but keep hitting a wall.
- Was nearly discovered at last drop. Flame Legion are getting suspicious. Or Antsy. They don’t like being this deep underground, away from the sun. Having Baelfire rituals more often.
- Looking into a reason for the alliance. Little success. Something pushed the Flame Legion and dredge together, but it wasn’t desperatation or minions of Primordus. So what? Why?
- A combination of Flame Legion magic and dredge technology scared me breathless today. It was collossal…horrifying. Called “kom-pew”-somthing. Couldn’t catch it all before they hurried away.
- New Prisoners every day. Never heard of Flame Legion and dredge taking so many. Some put in pens, others taken to “Weapons testing.” Haven’t heard anything about that. Not sure I want to.
- Troop movements east, south, and west. Using caverns and digging machines to hasten passage underground. Theyre’re things down here…disgusting…even worse than the Flame Legion and dredge.
- I want this on record: The food down here is the nastiest slop I’ve ever tasted. Just crap. If I survive, I want a raise and a vacation, or I’ll flay anyone who tries to return me to field ops.
- Saw a Flame Legion berserker wearing dredge weapons. Said he couldn’t wait to use the tech on casters. Don’t approach his kind without some seriously heavy-duty armor.
- Big Fight. A Flame Legion shaman refused to give flame magic to moletariat-selected dredge. They burned him alive, and the dredge got their disturbing transformation. Watch out for them.
- Took out a power plant by exploiting unstable elements and valve weaknesses. Caught the engineers by surprise. That’s two dredge and one Flame Legion soldier less for us.
- Got a good look at the dredge drilling machine’s controls. They’re not that different from charr machinery. Probably altered so Flame Legion soldiers can operate it. Could work in our favour.
- I’ve seen things developed down here that make me both excited and alarmed. Excited, because we can steal the prototypes for ourselves. Alarmed, becuase right now they’re in enemy hands.
Theres some really interesting stuff in there. Its got me thinking that rather than the kidnapping being a key to what is happening, it might be the whole point. The vents we see around everywhere are not a weapon but a side effect of power stations. The dredge and the Flame Legion are trying to develop something new. The attacks on the surface are to raid for new prisoners rather than a focused war effort to conquer territory.
Something is holding this alliance together when its clear neither side is really keen on it. My guess is greed.
A few lines get me curious. One is “There are things down here…. disgusting. Worse than Flame Legion and Dredge.” Gravelings maybe?
A few lines get me curious. One is “There are things down here…. disgusting. Worse than Flame Legion and Dredge.” Gravelings maybe?
Evil dwarves..
They were master crafters..thought to possibly insane due to the transformation to living stone..
I’m throwing it out there…
(edited by Randulf.7614)
@Aaron: Precisely.
@Konig: Considering that the Pact was involved in the CoF, I think it’s pretty clear that the FL at least regards them as the enemy. Also, the impression I had (from sources apart from Rytlock) with the Pact’s involvement was that it was as much about allowing the charr to send more resources against the dragons that would be freed up by defeating the Flame Legion. And in my memory of the discussion at the war council, the charr leaders basically ask why you’re not off fighting dragons, you say that you’re getting involved in the fight regardless, and they basically say all right then and invite you in.
The primary focus of the Pact certainly is the dragons, but they are aware that dealing with other crises can indirectly help against the dragons (by allowing more resources to be sent against the dragons). We also see each of the organisations taking an interest in the Molten Alliance, although the Vigil seems to be doing the most and the Priory seems to be (openly) doing the least (although I’d be willing to bet the Priory is working behind the scenes with the Order and the Vigil to analyse any data that is found, and the Priory certainly doesn’t want to see the dredge get any stronger). So for all practical purposes the Pact is involved, it just may not officially be a Pact operation.
@Erukk: First things that come to mind are the Inquest (already known to have worked hand-in glove with the dredge, and also involved in an alliance with bandits and Nightmare Court in Brisban Wildlands) and Lazarus the Dire, the sole surviving mursaat. And for all we know, the latter is already involved with the former.
I think one of the keys to exactly what the Molten Alliance is trying to do is what they are doing with the prisoners, which hopefully we will learn soon.
The dredge have an old habit of using live target practice for their weapon testing. And the Flame Legion, as mentioned, do use living sacrifices to make Embers and Charr Effigies.
I do suspect that the Molten Alliance are proxies to another group or person. There alliance is pretty unnatural and sounds like it has some opposition within its own ranks. The two groups have also intergrated suprisingly quickly. There is an endgame here that I dont think we have seen yet and I suspect that it might not be what the Molten Alliance actually expects it to be.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/living-story-evolution/
“Aside from the Living Story main characters, we’ll also be surprising you with interesting villains, one of whom will become your personal nemesis. "
My guess is whoever this is will be the one pulling the two groups’ string.
Do we know any organizations, groups, or entities that could pull off an manipulation of this scale off? Getting the Dredge to attack the Norn, or the FL to attack the Charr, is one thing, but getting them to do it together, at the same time, would take a big outside influence.
Maybe sprinkle a few clues for us lore nerds, but save the actually identity for later, after further use.
I think the one behind it all will be revealed – or at least heavily hinted upon – in the fourth installment.
Again, money’s on the “easily recognizable” “personal nemesis” that got mentioned.
As for worshiping, nah. But it could be that the drege picked up some insights from a certain Inquest project regarding the harnessing of dragon magical energy…
When I first read the dead drop about a large machine being built and powered by FL magic, I was thinking Iron Forgeman 3.0 – and the 2.0 version, made by Kudu, was powered by draconic energies. But then I realized what "kom-pew-something " was likely referring to.
[…]
I don’t think the PC’s joining in on the fighting is a credible source for who the Pact picks fights with. Nor do I think that Smodur accepting a Commander’s assistance is either.
As I said, their involvement with Citadel of Flames is – and this sadly seems to be given only to charr characters in one of those occasional letters from Rytlock in the personal storyline progression – due to the Pact getting their ears on a rumor that the Flame Legion have a powerful weapon which they (the Pact) hope to procure and use against the Elder Dragons. What said weapon is, is never explained however.
And I still would not say “because the three Orders which make the bulk of the Pact are involved, it means that the Pact is involved” either – take note that while the three Orders began the Pact, the Pact is 1) led by an individual not of the three Orders, and 2) having been recruiting non-Order soldiers, be they sylvari Wardens, refugees offput by the dragons, the High Legions’ aid, or former Seraph.
I forget, was zojjas rival killed in the dungeon stories? Or is he still out thete somewhere? He seems a prime candidate for the nemesis part
I do suspect he is toast…
Zojja’s rival? You refer to Kudu, I presume? He is killed in Crucible of Eternity.
If the white mantle make official appearance (I.E we get white mantle weapons and armor) I will be stoked and I will play gw2 like it is going out of style. Also I see the Ebon vanguard getting involved. If you going to get all of the “civil wars” together might as well invite them to help out.
About one particular quote by Konig many posts ago about the FL taking power from but not worshipping Primordus.
I think it’s still possible they actually “worship” him. It wouldn’t be even the first time they “worship” destroyers, and here are my reasons to believe this shouldn’t be so quickly discarded (not saying it is sure like that, only that it could still be, and the reason I put it in “comas” is that it would be false worshipping connecting the following dots):
- Most Flame Legion Charr are fanatics that blindly follow their shamans. If not by fanatism, by fear of being killed for being heretics.
- To sustain that position as source of fanatism/fear, the Flame Legion shamans are always seeking for some “new god” that gives them their authority in the eyes of their followers.
- Flame Legion shamans are known to be manipulative individuals. They don’t need to really find a god, the just need to find a source of power and make their fanatical followers believe they got a new god so they can sustain their position. During GW1 they tried to replace Titans with Destroyers, and as seen during “Assault on the Stronghold” they knew those Destroyers would’t support them and still didn’t care about them tearing their followers once the stronghold fell.
- As you said, it’s very possible the source of power for their rituals is actually Primordus.
- The Flame Legion last attemp at getting a god to hold their position as leaders of fanatics is gone, including their attemp at resurecting him.
- Now the shamans need new creative ideas about how to maintain their fanatical followers and brainstorm about that (ok, probably not our typical brainstorming but you get the idea).
- Knowing where the power of Gaheron and their rituals comes from, they decided to make the next move. As Gaheron’s death is a big hit, they need something big to raise their troops morale: “Guys… We got the favor of an Elder Dragon and we can prove it” (said in a more charrish way).
- What the shamans can prove is that the source of their power is Primordius. As they’re expert manipulators, when asked why Destroyers are hostile to them if they got Primordus favor, they explain that Destroyer’s are to be taken as a force of nature and sacred criatures. Whoever disturbs them would feel the deadly consequences (or something like that, I’m not a manipulative leader so I’m sure they could do better :P).
- Meanwhile Primordus would be aware of those shamans taking their power from the “radiation” (draconic aura… something in the atmosphere… whatever dragon leaves that can be used as a source of power) he emits. This apply with or without worshipping as we’re both taking into consideration/speculating that during Gaheron’s times they were still taking their power from that source.
- It’s possible that he isn’t really aware of all of this because he has his attention in something important, in that case we wouldn’t need the following points explaining why would he tolerate the use of his powers and the use of his name as the flame legion god.
- First of all, the FL is probably taking their power from a source that was created by Primordus influence but isn’t of any real use to him, it’s just radiation he or his destroyers leave (similar to the Brand but without corrupting people).
- Being worshipped isn’t something that menaces him. At worst he simply wouldn’t care about it. Primordus is focused on destroying and that’s it, I don’t think he cares at all about political affairs and having followers.
- I’m going to use an example (that I believe I’ve already used in a different thread) from the X-Men here. Recently the X-Man Colossus took the power of the Juggernaut, that is given by Cytorakk lord of a demonic plane. When Colossus tried to return the power so he wouldn’t need to carry it arguing that he was a hero so probably Cytorakk wouldn’t consider him fit for the power, Cytorakk argued that he was interested on destruction, not on morality behind actions, and that in fact being a super hero he was involved on even more destruction than the previous villianous Juggernaut.
- With that example I mean this: Primordus, like Cytorakk, is interested on destruction. He doesn’t care if those shamans are using his name or not to get power over their followers, but what he is interested in is that those shamans even if really not worship him, are causing a huge lot destruction without Primordius needing to send his own forces, and they’re causing all that destruction while leaving Primordius imprint because some of them are affected by the ritual.
- So basically Primordus at worst wouldn’t care at all about it, and he may even be pleased (not granting any favors to anyone, just seeing how all this could benefit his goals of destroying everything).
(edited by Lokheit.7943)
Character Limit
Ok that was a bit long (and many parts were used in a previous conversation with Konig in the old thread, only that this time I’m only defending the possibility of the FL “worhispping” him, and last time I had the idea of Primordus forces actually making both forces ally with each other which was quickly discarded), I will have to check later if I missed something.
Anyway I’m just saying that there are still ways for the Flame Legion to “believe that they’re worshipping” Primordus after Gaheron’s death. And as you said Sons of Svannir might want a fight here, and if the Flame Legion “believe that they’re worshipping” Primordus they will probably answer the call for a fight, and of course their shamans wouldn’t be able to stop them because it’s what they’re making them believe.
Of course that would be assuming that this is what is happening. If not I guess they might become a target simply for using Primordus as a power source with or without worshipping.
The scenario I posted would also give the FL a reason to get into their new alliance: the Inquest apparently teached some Dredge how to use Destroyers as weapons against their will. What better to ciment shamans false position in that scenario than learning the trick from dredge so they can show their followers how they can use destroyers for their own means?
(edited by Lokheit.7943)
About one particular quote by Konig many posts ago about the FL taking power from but not worshipping Primordus.
I think it’s still possible they actually “worship” him.
Sorry but, no, it’s not.
We were outright told by the developers back in 2009 (might have been 2010) that the Flame Legion “learned from their mistakes” and decided to not adopt things as gods, but to make them. This was told to us when they were asked if they’re still worshiping destroyers. That’s the whole explanation behind Gaheron being called a god and the Flame Legion trying to bring him into godhood.
It’s the result of them telling themselves “never again will we worship or bring in worship of outside creatures!”
Which of course, includes Primordus.
- The Flame Legion last attemp at getting a god to hold their position as leaders of fanatics is gone, including their attemp at resurecting him.
You also make a minor mistake here. At the end of the Eternal Flame path in CoF, Magg states that they could still possibly resurrect their dead, so they’ll have to keep an eye on them.
Another mistake you make is that it seems the Flame Legion still consider Gaheron their god. The LOR-### NPC found in Lion’s Arch states they worship Gaheron, and one of the dead drops mentions a “Gaheron ritual.” Though this is likely just an “omit the fact to prevent a paradox” scenario, it gives indication that the Flame Legion still revere Gaheron to some degree.
First of all, the FL is probably taking their power from a source that was created by Primordus influence but isn’t of any real use to him, it’s just radiation he or his destroyers leave (similar to the Brand but without corrupting people).
Problem is, all draconic energies corrupt. Primordus may be unique to a degree – though likely through choice – but nonetheless draconic energies still corrupt. The fact their bodies are altered would prove this if the Flame Legion really are siphoning from Primordus/a powerful Destroyer – the question would simply be “why are their minds not altered?” not “does the source corrupt?”
Problem is, all draconic energies corrupt. Primordus may be unique to a degree – though likely through choice – but nonetheless draconic energies still corrupt. The fact their bodies are altered would prove this if the Flame Legion really are siphoning from Primordus/a powerful Destroyer – the question would simply be “why are their minds not altered?” not “does the source corrupt?”
Would it not be a possibility that the reason that Primordus does not corrupt living beings is because he does not have the power to twist the mind that certain other dragons possess? I mean it could be that the two element specific dragons (possibly three) come from a time before there was life, and they only know how to twist the raw elements of nature. It is merely a theory (and should Mordremoth be included puts a damper in your Mordremoth-Nightmare theory) but I think it may be sound based on what little information we have on those two (three?) dragons.
It’s possible, but TBH, I find it unlikely. It’d put him under a serious disadvantage to at least three other, but most likely five other, Elder Dragons. And thus far, they seem to be on par to each other, with the only thing making one worse than the other is how many minions they have and how much magic they’ve consumed.
Also, only Zhaitan – and possibly Mordremoth, arguably (in a very stretchy argument_ Kralkatorrik – aren’t pure “element.” Unless you’re arguing that ice and crystal aren’t elements.
Well, to be fair, it could be that Primordus keeps even because while he can’t twist the mind of the living, he makes up for it through being able to create new creatures directly more easily than the others. Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag all seem to have it reserved for champions (even icebrood and branded elementals seem to be based on the basic elemental form) and even then it’s still possible the champion was twisted from some other creature, while Primordus is able to create an army on its own.
It might also be why Primordus wanted to wake early and have the Destroyers wipe out all life – he doesn’t lose anything from doing so, but he would remove a valuable resource from his rivals.
About one particular quote by Konig many posts ago about the FL taking power from but not worshipping Primordus.
I think it’s still possible they actually “worship” him.
Sorry but, no, it’s not.
We were outright told by the developers back in 2009 (might have been 2010) that the Flame Legion “learned from their mistakes” and decided to not adopt things as gods, but to make them. This was told to us when they were asked if they’re still worshiping destroyers. That’s the whole explanation behind Gaheron being called a god and the Flame Legion trying to bring him into godhood.
It’s the result of them telling themselves “never again will we worship or bring in worship of outside creatures!”
Which of course, includes Primordus.
Ok I didn’t know about that then and last time I was talking about FL gods seeking it wasn’t mentioned as counter argument.
Just out of curiosity, do you remember who said it and if it sounded very definitive? Any chance the FL might change their mind after 250 years and a big blow to their current target of worhip? There has been decission changes in other things before in the game.
- The Flame Legion last attemp at getting a god to hold their position as leaders of fanatics is gone, including their attemp at resurecting him.
You also make a minor mistake here. At the end of the Eternal Flame path in CoF, Magg states that they could still possibly resurrect their dead, so they’ll have to keep an eye on them.
Another mistake you make is that it seems the Flame Legion still consider Gaheron their god. The LOR-### NPC found in Lion’s Arch states they worship Gaheron, and one of the dead drops mentions a “Gaheron ritual.” Though this is likely just an “omit the fact to prevent a paradox” scenario, it gives indication that the Flame Legion still revere Gaheron to some degree.
Hummm when I read that “Gaheron ritual” I figured it to be the way it calls the “process” that Gaheron (and other shamans but not so far as him) went through more than a ritual using the godly powers of Gaheron. Even if a second resurrect attemp can happen, I don’t think Gaheron current state allows him to empower anyone.
First of all, the FL is probably taking their power from a source that was created by Primordus influence but isn’t of any real use to him, it’s just radiation he or his destroyers leave (similar to the Brand but without corrupting people).
Problem is, all draconic energies corrupt. Primordus may be unique to a degree – though likely through choice – but nonetheless draconic energies still corrupt. The fact their bodies are altered would prove this if the Flame Legion really are siphoning from Primordus/a powerful Destroyer – the question would simply be “why are their minds not altered?” not “does the source corrupt?”
Well, I used wrong words, that part was just a secondary thing and what I meant was that rather than being like the brand that corrupted everything when it happened, there might be some radiation trails (that didn’t instantly corrupt everything) from Primordus that those Flame Legion Shamans found and started using.
Now that I think about it, it may be as corruptive as the Brand as we find many eruptions that generates destroyers (I assume those eruptions are Primordius radiation corrupting the ground and rocks around the eruption and generating Destroyers) and it may be that the Flame Legion are using power from similar eruptions after being contained.
If devs stated that they no longer seek gods from outside I guess my case can’t stand. It would have been cool if at least the FL troops would think they had Primordus favor and fight against the SoS representing Jormag.
If only the Sons feel attached to a Dragon, then I don’t think the Molten Alliance should have too much interest on them as they would be just (if our speculation is correct) syphoning dragon energy like the Inquest, which doesn’t makes them rival to anyone worshipping a different dragon IMO.
If the Molten Alliance and the Sons of Svanir collide, it’s probably going to be a combination of two things:
First, the Molten Alliance may not distinguish between the Sons and their main targets, leading them to attack the Sons as they do other norn and thereby provoke them.
Second, for all their dragon-worshipping, the Sons still regard themselves as norn… and other norn are their source of recruitment. Thus, the Sons may well look dimly on the norn settlements being attacked by a force that isn’t acting on Dragon’s will.
Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag all seem to have it reserved for champions (even icebrood and branded elementals seem to be based on the basic elemental form) and even then it’s still possible the champion was twisted from some other creature, while Primordus is able to create an army on its own.
Veteran Branded Lieutenants and the branded guardian shown in Ghosts of Ascalon were from the land itself., based on appearance/description.
Just out of curiosity, do you remember who said it and if it sounded very definitive? Any chance the FL might change their mind after 250 years and a big blow to their current target of worhip? There has been decission changes in other things before in the game.
I think it came through two interviews, one saying that the only connection with the destroyers and Flame Legion is the events of Eye of the North (with Jeff), while the other saying that they learned from their mistakes (with Ree, iirc). I only can find the first interview:
[B]Q: In regards to the Flame Legion: Do they have any kind of connection with Primordus and his “next-gen” destroyers? Also, what was the purpose of the Flame Citadel?[/B]
A: The first question is— they do not have any direct connection in Eye of the North. When the Titans were slain the members of the Flame Legion decided to try to go after a new set of gods and they settle on the destroyers. That did not work out very well either. So, that’s the connection between the two, that they were trying to crop up another set of gods. In the 250 years since Eye of the North, the Charr have had a philosophical revolution, in which they deny the existence of the gods, thinking that will help them triumph. Now the Flame Legion have lost control. They are on the outs with the other three legions the Flame Citadel is one of their main bases— it’s up in the North and we were talking about it this morning in a design seminar— that they’re got their legion and their contending against the other legions there. They are trying to learn the lessons of the past. The Flame Legion has a plan, the nature of that plan will be revealed. They want to get back on top.
Unfortunately the url’s changed, but it was a Guru2 interview with Jeff Grubb, Matthew Medina, Martin Kerstein, and Mike Zadorojny.
Hummm when I read that “Gaheron ritual” I figured it to be the way it calls the “process” that Gaheron (and other shamans but not so far as him) went through more than a ritual using the godly powers of Gaheron. Even if a second resurrect attemp can happen, I don’t think Gaheron current state allows him to empower anyone.
That’s not what I was saying at all. Rather, the fact that they still attribute to him is something to note, since past Imperators that failed miserably were viewed with disdain after their death.
If only the Sons feel attached to a Dragon, then I don’t think the Molten Alliance should have too much interest on them as they would be just (if our speculation is correct) syphoning dragon energy like the Inquest, which doesn’t makes them rival to anyone worshipping a different dragon IMO.
They’d be rivals for different reasons. I mean, simply being worshipers of an Elder Dragon makes them rivals to everyone else in of itself. Both charr and dredge want more land, and they’re no friends to the Sons of Svanir, so they’d be more inclined to fight as they are now than if both groups worshiped an Elder Dragon – given how they – irrelevant of the Elder Dragon’s wishes – may find their paths to be “in the same lines.”
Thanks for the info about the interviews.
About the last paragraph, what I meant is that “Flame is the alliance and Frost the sons” idea that was thrown before. The alliance as they’re now are as rivals of the SoS as they’re for anyone else in the area, they aren’t particularly targeting them and they don’t have reasons to particularly go against them.
Aditioally for what we know the SoS haven’t make a move against them while the players and their allies are actively working against them. Except for some hard to catch commentary, the SoS aren’t even mentioned in the event to be important enough for them to be the “frost” from the title.
That can always happen during the last story arc, but at this point it should be something really big to throw so much spotlight on them.
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