Guild Wars 2

It was unneeded because the events, dialogue, situations, visuals. etc. that are in the game all lead you to that conclusion.

So they all lead to that conclusion even though you also admit there is a lack of clarity with no explanation. You contradict yourself. So what then would lead us to that conclusion?

You’re confusing inherent evil with just being evil for any reason at all and falsely assuming situational evil isn’t also evil. Evil actions don’t point to inherent evil or situational evil. As I already stated, it all boils down to evil in the end. There is no evidence either way at all. It is left compleltly undefined as you yourself admit. The wishful thinking is on your part because you really want this to be true. But it’s built on an imaginary foundion here that only existed in personal assumption. It wasn’t actually part of the lore as you say it was.

While its obvious that the Charr were depicted as both merciless and purely evil in GW it is also clear now that this stance has somehow changed some time in to past 250 years. And so the discourse must now be: how does the humans of Ebonhawke move forward as a people?

How does Human Ascalon become independently viable as a city state? To me this would require at least a partial Lore reversal. Since it would require humanity to claim the hinterland of Ebonhawke and Serenity Temple. I see Serenity Temple having a settlement/town built around it, garrisoned by Ebon Vanguard troops.

This change to me is required since without it there is no logical reason for humans to maintain a settlement within the borders of Ascalon. This is the harsh reality. Logan Thackeray as Gwen and Keiran’s decendant would not wish this but that will be the result of the Lore stands unaltered. I would also suggest that the Lore surrounding him should be clarified.

Logan Thackeray and his now dead brother Dylan would now be seen as sons of Ebonhawke made good. Logan obvious now wields considerable influence in the court of the Krytan Queen, Jennah. This power could be used to the advantage of Ebonhawke.

Also, I do not know why ArenaNet writers remains coy about the romance between the two. Perhaps Logan is now looking in the direction of Lady Kasmeer Meadehttp://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kasmeer_Meade?

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

While its obvious that the Charr were depicted as both merciless and purely evil in GW it is also clear now that this stance has somehow changed some time in to past 250 years. And so the discourse must now be: how does the humans of Ebonhawke move forward as a people?

How does Human Ascalon become independently viable as a city state? To me this would require at least a partial Lore reversal. Since it would require humanity to claim the hinterland of Ebonhawke and Serenity Temple. I see Serenity Temple having a settlement/town built around it, garrisoned by Ebon Vanguard troops.

This change to me is required since without it there is no logical reason for humans to maintain a settlement within the borders of Ascalon. This is the harsh reality. Logan Thackeray as Gwen and Keiran’s decendant would not wish this but that will be the result of the Lore stands unaltered. I would also suggest that the Lore surrounding him should be clarified.

Logan Thackeray and his now dead brother Dylan would now be seen as sons of Ebonhawke made good. Logan obvious now wields considerable influence in the court of the Krytan Queen, Jennah. This power could be used to the advantage of Ebonhawke.

Also, I do not know why ArenaNet writers remains coy about the romance between the two. Perhaps Logan is now looking in the direction of Lady Kasmeer Meadehttp://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kasmeer_Meade?

Why do you want Ebonhawke as independent state anyway? Ascalon kingdom is dead for 200+ years already, and there is no chance to restore it anyway, because it require major war (with pretty low chances to success), and I don’t see ANY reasons for Kryta to begin such war just to pat some people who dreaming about their ascalonian heritage. It’s much more likely that Kryta want to do exact the opposite, wait until majority of Separatists will simply die in their guerrilla war and then absorb Ebonhawke and lands around (given by peace treaty) as new part of Krytan Kingdom.

Except that Ebonhawke would never stand for that, and Kryta doesn’t have the troops to spare to enforce it.

ALL Ebonhawkers believe themselves Ascalonian, and beholden only to the Ascalonian crown. The Separatists are no more patriotic in that regard than any of their kin; they only object to the Kingdom of Ascalon making peace with its despoilers.

And no logical reason? What about the only homes your family has ever known? What about the generations of your ancestors that have fought and died for it? For people who value home and family, there is no other logical place to live.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Except that Ebonhawke would never stand for that, and Kryta doesn’t have the troops to spare to enforce it.

ALL Ebonhawkers believe themselves Ascalonian, and beholden only to the Ascalonian crown. The Separatists are no more patriotic in that regard than any of their kin; they only object to the Kingdom of Ascalon making peace with its despoilers.

And no logical reason? What about the only homes your family has ever known? What about the generations of your ancestors that have fought and died for it? For people who value home and family, there is no other logical place to live.

^— This.
I live in a country where certain cities are rather prone to devastating earthquakes. A couple of years ago one of our most heavily populated cities was hit by quite a few earthquakes in a short period of time. The damage done to housing and the city itself was catastrophic. But hardly anyone moved away…. People don’t like leaving the place they call home. It doesn’t matter if it’s dangerous, it doesn’t matter if it makes logical sense to leave. That is their home.

Because Ebonhawke is too small to sustain real independent kingdom (without constant help from Kryta, and why Kryta will give them help for free if they are don’t want to be part of Kryta?), and it’s not like High Legions are gonna give them additional territories just for pretty eyes. Where they are planning to expand, into Crystal Desert?

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Also, I do not know why ArenaNet writers remains coy about the romance between the two. Perhaps Logan is now looking in the direction of Lady Kasmeer Meadehttp://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kasmeer_Meade?

That would be interesting, but I doubt it. Logan and Jennah have stated before that they do love each other deeply. It is just that the relationships between a ruling monarch, without a heir, and someone of Logan’s station is delicate, to say the least.

Not to mention, a portion of the playerbase suspects that there is a possible relationship between Majory and Kasmeer. Or, at least, one sided feelings on Kasmeer’s part, and Majory is a bit oblivious on the matter.

Rednik.3809:

Because Ebonhawke is too small to sustain real independent kingdom (without constant help from Kryta, and why Kryta will give them help for free if they are don’t want to be part of Kryta?), and it’s not like High Legions are gonna give them additional territories just for pretty eyes. Where they are planning to expand, into Crystal Desert?

The High Legions already have given them additional territories, more than enough to see them through for a long time- especially given the inevitable population drain of defending those territories from ogres and branded. They’ve the entire Fields of Ruin to work with now, and south-eastern Blazeridge Steppes. And in any event, it seems to be rare in Tyria for population pressures to reach the point of forcing expansion. Too many ways out there for a person to die.

Out of curiosity, though… what aid do you figure they would need from Kryta? The only thing mentioned in-game is provisions, and that’s a moot point with the asura gate and ranches north of the fortress.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Rednik.3809:

Because Ebonhawke is too small to sustain real independent kingdom (without constant help from Kryta, and why Kryta will give them help for free if they are don’t want to be part of Kryta?), and it’s not like High Legions are gonna give them additional territories just for pretty eyes. Where they are planning to expand, into Crystal Desert?

The High Legions already have given them additional territories, more than enough to see them through for a long time- especially given the inevitable population drain of defending those territories from ogres and branded. They’ve the entire Fields of Ruin to work with now, and south-eastern Blazeridge Steppes. And in any event, it seems to be rare in Tyria for population pressures to reach the point of forcing expansion. Too many ways out there for a person to die.

Out of curiosity, though… what aid do you figure they would need from Kryta? The only thing mentioned in-game is provisions, and that’s a moot point with the asura gate and ranches north of the fortress.

Not to mention the Asura Gate provides access to Lions Arch which is a free port and most likely a much more important source of provisions than Divinity’s Reach is.

Either way, I highly doubt the provisions are being paid for by the government at the other end of the gate. They have easier access to the markets, but that doesn’t equate to a free ride in them.

Dustfinger.9510:

It was unneeded because the events, dialogue, situations, visuals. etc. that are in the game all lead you to that conclusion.

So they all lead to that conclusion even though you also admit there is a lack of clarity with no explanation. You contradict yourself. So what then would lead us to that conclusion?

You’re confusing inherent evil with just being evil for any reason at all and falsely assuming situational evil isn’t also evil. Evil actions don’t point to inherent evil or situational evil. As I already stated, it all boils down to evil in the end. There is no evidence either way at all. It is left compleltly undefined as you yourself admit. The wishful thinking is on your part because you really want this to be true. But it’s built on an imaginary foundion here that only existed in personal assumption. It wasn’t actually part of the lore as you say it was.

Sorry Dust, busy weekend.

I never said your two types weren’t evil or whatever, I just said the game makes it obvious that the Charr are the bad guys. In a game like GW2 where good & evil are black and white, it’s silly to question the motives behind both evil and good. The narrative wasn’t built that way, you’re projecting GW2’s moral ambiguity onto the GW1 stage. You’re right, it wasn’t clarified. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

It wasn’t clarified that the player character was a good person either, just that he saved Tyria from a bunch o’ calamities. It’s an assumed role you take on as the hero, they don’t have to outright state it. If they had felt they had to, the writers would have done a very poor job.

Take Markis of the Shining Blade for instance. He’s depicted simply as a traitor. Is he inherently or situationally evil? Who cares, it doesn’t matter. Maybe his wife was dying of an incurable disease and the Mursaat promised to help. It doesn’t say, he’s just a kitten for sellin’ out.

The Charr on the other hand, are entirely depicted as one of the apex antagonists. Everything from the few bits of lore we get on them, the in-game depictions, their dialogue content, their animations, their names, to even their armor style…depicts them in a way that leaves zero doubt as to their intentions. There’s no debate on this, they were made by the designers to be killers.

And giving them some inventive “out” like Flame Legion made ’em do it!! because there’s no “proof” of their inherent evilness is apologistic and irresponsible. It lets them completely write off the original intentions of the Charr, and blames the disconnect as ignorance on the Ascalonians part. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen or grander or more implausible 180 with a game race before.

GW2 is a different game with a different style. And no amount of reinventing, recreating, or outright retconning, will erase the old game for what it was meant to be…that is, until the day they pull the plug on it.

Obsidian.1328:

Sorry Dust, busy weekend.

I never said your two types weren’t evil or whatever, I just said the game makes it obvious that the Charr are the bad guys. In a game like GW2 where good & evil are black and white, it’s silly to question the motives behind both evil and good. The narrative wasn’t built that way, you’re projecting GW2’s moral ambiguity onto the GW1 stage. You’re right, it wasn’t clarified. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

It wasn’t clarified that the player character was a good person either, just that he saved Tyria from a bunch o’ calamities. It’s an assumed role you take on as the hero, they don’t have to outright state it. If they had felt they had to, the writers would have done a very poor job.

Take Markis of the Shining Blade for instance. He’s depicted simply as a traitor. Is he inherently or situationally evil? Who cares, it doesn’t matter. Maybe his wife was dying of an incurable disease and the Mursaat promised to help. It doesn’t say, he’s just a kitten for sellin’ out.

The Charr on the other hand, are entirely depicted as one of the apex antagonists. Everything from the few bits of lore we get on them, the in-game depictions, their dialogue content, their animations, their names, to even their armor style…depicts them in a way that leaves zero doubt as to their intentions. There’s no debate on this, they were made by the designers to be killers.

And giving them some inventive “out” like Flame Legion made ’em do it!! because there’s no “proof” of their inherent evilness is apologistic and irresponsible. It lets them completely write off the original intentions of the Charr, and blames the disconnect as ignorance on the Ascalonians part. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen or grander or more implausible 180 with a game race before.

GW2 is a different game with a different style. And no amount of reinventing, recreating, or outright retconning, will erase the old game for what it was meant to be…that is, until the day they pull the plug on it.

I agree. The char were evil in GW1. It was definitely black and white. I don’t even disagree that it is silly to question the motives in GW1. As I said, no one cared what they were because it all just boiled sown to evil in the end. What I do disagree with is that it was ever implied either way as to what the motives were.

Since it was so black and white, the issue was never addressed because it never needed to be. But that also means the charr had room in GW2 to be written as situationally evil in GW1. My whole point is that it does make sense and it absolutely doesn’t go against the lore in GW1. There is no retcon here. At all. You can’t have it both ways. Either they were simply evil with no deeper insight (which we agree on) or they were implied to be inherently evil which means there was a deeper insight. I think your trying to bring a legitimate concern about GW1 and 2 having different zeitgeists into an illegitimate concern about a deeper insight into the GW1 charr that simply didn’t exist. But those are two different issues with vastly different levels of valididity.

As I said, some of us may not agree with what the GW2 writers filled those lore holes in with, but it does make sense and it absolutely isn’t a retcon.

edit: So let’s take Markis. he was undoubtedly a pee hole for selling out. No matter what his motivations are. If we find out later that his daddy beat him and his mommy never loved him (maybe maybe not), it doesn’t lessen the impact or result of his actions. they were evil no matter what. Do you say he as a human being was inherently evil like the charr? This is the double standard here.

In the same way, the charr were evil, no matter what. So why would Markis still be evil with relatable problems but you view the charr as somehow pawning their actions off? No matter what, the charr were still evil in GW1. I stated that from the beginning.
Would you view Markis as having an “out” or it being “irresponsible” to simply give his story depth? I doubt it. Because I think your legitimate concern is bleeding over into illegitamte areas.

Dust

Eh, you’re using the absence of solid evidence as proof of the possibility of evidence to the contrary. My argument isn’t about the bare facts of the case, if it was I’d be wrong. My argument is about how they were portrayed in the GW1 story through by the authors and how they meant the Charr to be seen as a group. You could certainly point out(as you have and are) that there isn’t any legitimate proof that the Charr were inherently evil. There isn’t any if you’re just looking at raw data. But that’s not exactly my argument.

I’d said many times in my rants that the authors did a good job of connecting all the dots and making sure, as best they could, that there weren’t any loose ends or knotted lore threads. All that really takes is merely plodding through old texts and using any available generality or omission to take advantage of and extrapolate your own new thread from there. Think of it as an alternate reality where the timeline slants off at an angle before moving parallel to the old line. The new line is technically plausible because the old line stops at a specific point in time instead of continuing on, so no one can really say “I call BS” since there’s nothing to currently compare it to. The 250 years was used as a story technique to lessen whatever doubts(however tiny) this new thread would entail. kittenty analogy, but it’s the first thing that popped into my head.

Look, in reality, the new devs can do whatever they want with the lore. Of course they aren’t going to stray too much from it, or they risk the uproar from thousands of nerdy players like you and me. So they tweak the lore in little bits here and there in order to get exactly the kind of setting they want for the game. Is that legal? Of course it is. Does everything still add up? For the most part yes. Does it accurately reflect the story, style, and setting of GW1. Hell no.

The reason they didn’t elaborate on the Charr is because they were simply written as the enemy. A species to be seen as a mob that you kill, just like the dozens of other mobs out there like skales, ogres, or whatever other critters were out there. If you call to question their inherent “evilness”, then you have to call to question every single other species on the planet that isn’t specifically labeled “inherently evil”. That’s extremely silly. The writers didn’t call it out back then because they assumed the players would…well…get it, for lack of a better phrase.

I would say Markis’ evilness and the Charr’ evilness were not the same at all. Markis’ betrayal was not only intrinsic to the storyline, he was actually called out by the writers as someone who broke bad. The same is true of the Mantle, when we first meet them we think “oh…these guys are pretty cool…but there’s something fishy about them.” They left us tiny little breadcrumbs of doubt about which side they are on. Same with the Vizier.

They don’t do that with the Charr. They intentionally left no doubt as to which side they were on because that’s how they wanted them to be. I see what you’re saying about elaborating a race’s motives based on no technical evidence to the contrary, and you’re right on that account. But I’m arguing on stylistic and thematic evidence. And that’s where it doesn’t make sense. I’m sorry if you think that’s not as important as technical evidence, but it’s actually more important in a fantasy and fictional setting like Guild Wars’ Tyria.

Here, the lore doesn’t make sense if you look at it in this way. If you look at it from a composition point of view. Think of GW1 as a very long and beautiful song in which the notes are pieces of lore. It was put together in such a way that the music runs smooth and melodically. The notes interact and reinforce each other to produce a sound that we interpret as beautiful. Now…you can take a few notes out and put a few notes in at different places on the page, and still make it play music. It’s still a song. You can even put a “2” on the page and call it simply the next verse in the song. But if it sounds too different from the earlier music, you can’t consider it a legitimate addition to the same song. Essentially, it’s a new song.

For me, lore isn’t just about facts and figures. It’s also about mood, style, and theme. And no, the GW2 Charr do not make sense to the GW1 story when you look at it this way. Many things don’t at this point, even the humans. I can see how you would think it does based on a scientific approach, but 1+1=/=2 with writing. The story and lore of Guild Wars is greater than the sum of its parts. It’s art, not some equation we have to balance for Christ’s sake. If you can’t see that, then unfortunately we can’t meet on common ground. :/

Honestly, this talk of what is evil and what is good is moot – such topics are subjective, as everyone has their own lines to draw when it comes to these terms. And the lines are not clear cut even to themselves – feeding one person may be seen as good but feeding another may be seen as bad, simply because of the person being fed, in the first being a hungry child in the latter being a prisoner wanted for murder.

Nonetheless, in Prophecies, the charr were said to be evil, but depicted as primitive beasts that were being underestimated – both by the Ascalonians. That is to say, what we saw was a basic primitive society at war that had a basis of culture (we saw even in Prophecies the use of communication (but not heard beyond grunts and growls and roars), written ideograms, blacksmithing, and religion – not to mention the required knowledge to use magic) and intelligence but we only saw this culture and intelligence through battle. Eye of the North expanded on this culture and intelligence by showing it to us outside of battle, but you’re basically talking two different mindsets as the mentality during writing Prophecies and designing charr then was not the same as when writing Eye of the North.

Obsidian

As an artist, I do see your point. I have stated that a few times in our various interactions on this topic. I agree, mood style and theme are different. It is a different zeitgeist. That’s not in contention. At all.

What is in contention is this:

you’re using the absence of evidence as proof of the possibility of evidence to the contrary.

Coupled with this:

If you call to question their inherent “evilness”, then you have to call to question every single other species on the planet that isn’t specifically labeled “inherently evil”. That’s extremely silly. The writers didn’t call it out back then because they assumed the players would…well…get it, for lack of a better phrase.

The absence of evidence absolutely is proof of possibility. We have entire forums dedicated to possibilities in lore that aren’t explicitly given to us. Because artists rarely forsee every question about worlds they create. You don’t seem to have a problem with any other possibilities that weren’t called out. You take their idea of inherent evil as a given. A preconceived notion that didn’t need to be elaborated on in order to exist. This to me, is a clear baseless assumption.

Were all hostile NPC’s intended to be explicitly inherently evil unless otherwise stated? No. That is extremely silly. Because you are so sure that this is what the writers intended even when you have absolutely no evidence beyond how you feel. In fact the idea that they even thought of it or cared to try to portray it in any way is an implication that they actually did think deeper on who the charr were. But nothing shows that that was their intention. Nothing at all. Nothing beyond what you wish was true. This part of your war is an illusion that only exists in your own mind.

Does it accurately reflect the story, style, and setting of GW1. Hell no.

I said it before and I’ll say it again. We are agreed that it is a different zeitgeist. That’s a valid concern. But this issue about charr nature is an irrational bias on your part. You overthink the original artwork due to another artist being commissioned to expand upon it. That overthinking has caused you to imagine that the original artist forsaw what the next artist would write and you imagine that the original artist addressed it. they didn’t. Not one way or another. Not even in an abstract, ambiguous or nebulous way.

Dust

You’re an artist and you don’t mind ANet trying paint Tyria a different color?

I have plenty of problems with other possibilities in the game, this one just seems to get called out the most. Which brings me to my next point. Do you really think I’m over-thinking this? Honestly, it’s hard to find other issues so hotly debated. The very fact that it is such a hot topic should give pause to you saying I’m imagining something that isn’t there. It’s not just sentimentality(although that’s definitely part of it for some), it’s yer “zeitgeist” I guess.

It’s not how I feel about it so much as it is how the authors of the story felt about it. Not all hostile npc’s were intended to be inherently evil, no. You have to use your mind to figure it out. Look, the story gave us tons of preconceived notions. The Charr were just one of them. It was a preconceived notion that you(the hero) would ultimately have to save Tyria from destruction. It was a preconceived notion that we would probably have to face off with Shiro. It was a preconceived notion that there was something much bigger behind Varesh. There’s also things that aren’t pre-conceived, wow! The author isn’t going to hold your hand through it, lest he risk derision by people with brains. Use everything he or she gives you to perceive and see and hear and read, then come up with a conclusion based on that. If it jives with the game, it’s probably a good conclusion.

I’ll try to give you a GW2 counterpart scenario. Let’s say for GW3, the writers decide to tweak the Quaggans for the purpose of introducing another story arc. They claim the Quaggans we see are really spies sent to infiltrate Tyria by their evil Quaggan masters. The ones we see are actually sinister chameleons who are following the orders of their evil queen: the Prophetess Mellaggan and her evil enclave of Quaggan Acolytes! Egads! They then present us with an airtight case of why this is plausible making sure every little lore snippet is carefully bridged and fluid. Eventually we learn through gameplay cinematics that the Quaggan are building up strength in the seas around Tyria with the goal of enslaving the sentient races. They are a deceitful race, and particularly enjoy Asuran brains as a delicious delicacy to feast on in their underwater fortresses. Mellaggan, for her part, is being carefully controlled by the Elder Sea Dragon. During a game mission, we find a rebel group of Quaggan who are in hiding from Mellaggan and unite with the player character to help overthrow Mellaggan and cast off the yoke of the Sea Dragon’s influence. Brilliant!!! -_-

Does that make any sense to you? It’s ludicrous. Yet it’s still entirely possible because of the simple fact that any current developer can make it so. They essentially did the same thing with the Charr.

I’ve never said that it’s wrong to try and reinvent a game race, especially a former antagonist. What I’ve always said is that there are legitimate ways to do that. Primarily, doing it in such a way as to make it plausible not just with the facts of the lore, but with the style and theme of the composition. Using the Flame Legion is a complete cop-out because it erases the responsibility of the Charr of their former actions in Tyria. Using the Charr aversion to divine authority as the basis for surpassing every other race in Tyria in terms of technology is rediculous because it almost completely nullifies the importance the the gods in the first place…and tech has no place in Guild Wars. Using GW1’s own story-telling limitations as an excuse for granting the Charr, and any other race for that matter, a free hand with the lore because it was all “human-skewed” is about the most hilarious use of a bias fallacy I’ve ever seen. Using Roman nomenclature, instead of the historic Mongolian, for Charr societal and military framework changes the symbolic essence of the Charr from marauding savages to one more civilized and efficient. Using a lack of narrative about details of Charr society to extrapolate a story that is at odds with how they were written in the first place is the wrong way to do it. And additionally, although this is a separate issue, reshaping Adelbern into a crazy man who refuses to let go, legitimizes Charr claim to the land, while at the same time painting the Ascalonians as the real aggressor in the conflict.

If they wanted to make it more believable, or at least more accepting(because it’s not very much so, the volume of posts on this subject attest to it), they should have done it in a way that was more plausible. I realize we are vaguely arguing about different things here, but I don’t see how you can talk about inherent vs. situational Charr and not discuss their foundational portrayal in GW1. Again, I realize you think otherwise with that portrayal, but that’s just not how it was in the game. An illusionary war in my head? If it makes you feel better, go on ahead and think that.

Adelbern was already crazy – or did you miss the part of GW1 where he refused to even talk to the Krytan Ambassador because he dislikes Krytans DESPITE the fact that Ascalon was in ruins and the people needed somewhere to go… Then there’s the whole Titan invasion thing where he says:
King Adelbern: “As long as I have breath in my body, Ascalon will prevail!”
King Adelbern: “We have seen worse times than this and triumphed!”
WHAT has Ascalon faced that was worse than the Titans O_o….. Nothing. He’s quite clearly been deluded from the beginning.

Obsidian I really don’t get your argument. In GW1 the Charr were portrayed in a very limited way yes, but that never meant they were a limited species. We only ever saw things from the side of the humans, for Anet to show the Charr’s background later on was not a betrayal of that, it was simply pointing out that at the time we didn’t have all the information. As to the idea of them being savage warmongering beasts – there is no such thing, we saw how organised they were, we saw the things they were capable of building and the magic they have power over. They obviously were intelligent, it doesn’t matter if you saw it or not.

Foxx

• Rurik was a minority to seek Krytan help, most Ascalonians didn’t trust them. Why would they, they had been fighting each other for hundreds of years? Did you miss that part?

• It’s delusional to want to die for your country? Eat yer heart out Marines.

• I have no idea what worse things they faced. Oh right…that Searing thing.

For the record, at the time ANet didn’t even have all the information. It was elaborated on later. Also, it was the Prophecies’ authors point of view, not the humans. Other than the Thadeus Lamount bit, is the lore written in 1st-person? Is the gameplay controlled by some human narrator somewhere?

Obsidian.1328:

Foxx

• Rurik was a minority to seek Krytan help, most Ascalonians didn’t trust them. Why would they, they had been fighting each other for hundreds of years? Did you miss that part?

• It’s delusional to want to die for your country? Eat yer heart out Marines.

• I have no idea what worse things they faced. Oh right…that Searing thing.

For the record, at the time ANet didn’t even have all the information. It was elaborated on later. Also, it was the Prophecies’ authors point of view, not the humans. Other than the Thadeus Lamount bit, is the lore written in 1st-person? Is the gameplay controlled by some human narrator somewhere?

The searing isn’t really as bad as a direct attack by the titans – whose magic was used to cause the searing….

It’s delusional to reject a legitimate offer of help in order to die for your country yes…

Perhaps we should consdier the fact that Adelbern disowned and exiled his own son? That’s hardly rational.

Also you can’t really say that the majority of Ascalonians supported Adelbern because we don’t have the exact numbers either of those who stayed or of those who migrated to Kryta. Then you have to consider things like people being too afraid to travel because of the distance, people being scared to betray their king etc. Just because they stayed doesn’t mean they supported Adelbern or shared his views on Krytans.

Obsidian.1328:

Foxx

• Rurik was a minority to seek Krytan help, most Ascalonians didn’t trust them. Why would they, they had been fighting each other for hundreds of years? Did you miss that part?

• It’s delusional to want to die for your country? Eat yer heart out Marines.

• I have no idea what worse things they faced. Oh right…that Searing thing.

For the record, at the time ANet didn’t even have all the information. It was elaborated on later. Also, it was the Prophecies’ authors point of view, not the humans. Other than the Thadeus Lamount bit, is the lore written in 1st-person? Is the gameplay controlled by some human narrator somewhere?

“I want you to remember that no b*stard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb b*stard die for his country.”

Obsidian.1328:

Dust

You’re an artist and you don’t mind ANet trying paint Tyria a different color?

I have plenty of problems with other possibilities in the game, this one just seems to get called out the most. Which brings me to my next point. Do you really think I’m over-thinking this? Honestly, it’s hard to find other issues so hotly debated. The very fact that it is such a hot topic should give pause to you saying I’m imagining something that isn’t there. It’s not just sentimentality(although that’s definitely part of it for some), it’s yer “zeitgeist” I guess.

Is the question of inherent evil in charr a hotly debated topic among these forums?

Now its widely accepted that the then Prince Rurik was heir to the Ascalonian Crown and that through his choices was disowned by his father. However he was referred to as Adelbern’s firstborn son…..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prince_Rurik

Which I think is reasonable grounds to assume that Adelbern had other royal progeny. Did he not have other children alive and ready to take their elder brother’s place? In this picture may I also add at this time that Adelbern was the leader of the guild Ascalon’s Chosen and that Devona’s father Mordakai was a member of this guild as well. This would mean that Devona would have inherited her father’s membership, thus she would have been at least professionally associated with the royal family.

As she is the recognised leader of her band which includes Mhenlo, Cynn, Eve and Aidan to name the most noteable among this Ascalonian grouping, she would have invited them all to join Adelbern’s guild. Now having this group of battle tested professionals to re-enforce the defense of Ascalon City after witnessing the marriage of Captain Gwen and Keiran Thackeray would make sense.

What else would they have done after wishing well the newly weds? Now it would be plausible that Devona or one of her friends marry into the ruling family. Let’s just say that it is her that was married into Adelbern’s family.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hearts_of_the_North

This would result in her becoming Ascalon’s new Champion as chosen by Adelbern. And taking this line further she eventually becomes Queen by right of marriage along side Adelbern’s heir.

This would solidify Adelbern’s ability to do his duty to protect the people of Ascalon while having Gwen and Keiran establish Ebonhawke as a major supply base. Mhenlo, Cynn and Eve would be tasked with finding a way to reverse the effect of the Searing by taking leadership over the mages of Ascalon City.

Having Devona’s group to surport him, Adelbern would gradually acknowledge the need for an alliance not only with Kryta but the Asurans and the Norn through the friendship of Vekk and Jora. Of course all of this did not happen. But it should have and is likely to have. Since both Gwen and Devona would still maintain a strong connection to their Homeland even after their travels through Cantha, Elona and the Shiverpeaks.

And the reason why this did not happen was because of the need of ArenaNet, I think to give the Charr domination over all of Ascalon in Guild Wars 2 – 250 years into the future, regardless of fairness to the humans of Ascalon (both of Ascalon City and Ebonhawke).

The guild wars were over, Devona would not have joined Adelberns guild. Also one cannot assume that membership is inheritable.

Also there is nothing to say they went back to Ascalon after Gwen’s marriage, and I feel like given their prominence we would have heard SOMETHING about them if they had returned to Ascalon and subsequently been involved in the move to Ebonhawke or in the foefire.

I still don’t understand how you continue to talk about it as if the writers have performed some kind of disgusting act in having Ascalon be Charr land. The Humans initially drove the Charr OUT of the land – that is the entire reason the Charr fought against humanity and inflicted the Searing upon them – they wanted their land back.

Your logic seems to be that because we are humans everything should be human-centric and humans are the most wonderful race ever – this is not true, and it is certainly not true in Tyria.

Ascalon WAS Charr land, this was an established fact in GW1…

Foxx

The destruction of the entire Ascalon basin, the wall, and countless citizens in a single stroke is not as bad as a handful of Titans? dot dot dot

It’s not delusional to reject help from a shady offer. Kryta did that very thing. They were saved from the Charr, but enslaved by the Mantle right after…

It’s rational to villify deserters yes. Rurik should have known better than to publicly disagree with your king during a war.

You can’t say either way how many Ascalons supported Adelbern post-Searing. Did the Ascalonian Census include a public opinion poll on the king?

How do you know Devona would not have joined her father’s guild??

The Charr weren’t fighting humans for land, they had plenty of it. They were fighting humans because they wanted to exterminate humanity. Why invade Kryta and Orr if they just wanted Ascalon? Oh right, Abaddon told them to. When was that written into the lore again? Oh right, sometime around Nightfall. /rollseyes

Ascalon was Charr land yes. It was also someone else’s before that. And someone else’s before that. Did anyone else ever call it home besides the humans? Or build cities on it? Or bother to even name it?

Rednik

Patton was a hell of a general, one of my faves actually. He certainly had his flaws though. Nice quote, here’s one of his that might be at odds with it:
“If you can’t get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?”

Dust

Yes Dust, since it is directly related to just about every discussion on GW1vsGW2 lore concerning Ascalon.

Foxx

I’ll help one of your arguments out by quoting this from the GW manuscripts:

“The sudden destruction of most of the kingdom during the Searing has taken much of the fight out of the man now known as King Adelbern. He has become stubborn and set in his ways, afraid of losing what little he has left. But in his son Rurik, the people see a leader with the courage to perhaps help them reclaim their fallen kingdom.

The survivors of Ascalon live in a state of constant warfare, using hit-and-run tactics and the remnants of the Great Wall to prevent any significant advances by the Charr into their territory. King Adelbern has circled the wagons, so to speak, content to simply defend what Ascalon has left and live to fight another day. Prince Rurik, on the other hand, is far more daring than his father thinks is wise, and has even suggested that the time may be coming to launch an offensive against the Charr.

Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age."

It certainly throws doubt onto Adelbern as to his effectiveness as a ruler. Of course, it also paints Rurik as the Ascalon kingdom’s saviour. He didn’t exactly do that though. :/

This is a fantasy world and so I would say that Devona would be able to be accepted based on her deeds as well as being her father’s daughter.

Yes we should heard something about Devona and friends immediately after Gwen’s marriage but we have not. This is because the ArenaNet writers were planning to put in place the conditions to allow the events leading up to the Foefire to take place.

Why else do you think they were ignored. This is their obviously their motive. With Devona and friends defending Ascalon City and passing on their experiences and battle knowledge to the defenders the would inspire them to fight with greater wisdom and much greater strength of will. This will lead the defenders of Ascalon City to be able to prevent any siege on the city itself. Thus the Foefire will NEVER have happened.

As far as using the point of history that the Charr once own Ascalon? I think those that started at GW: Prophecies would disagree that because of this reason alone that the Charr be allowed to take it back by whatever means possible up to and including ignoring Devona and friends.

And this as we all know is exactly what the ArenaNet writers have done, based on what has been published thus far.

And as far as allowing the Lore to occur as I have suggested in reference to Ascalon would cause the game to remain human centric? really???

Theres Ascalon that’s north of the Great Northern Wall for a start. And lets not forget that Orr sunk! Human centric? All I’m asking for is a balance between the need to progress the Lore of Tyria and fairness to humanity. And taking from them almost everything outside of Kryta does NOT spell fair in my book.

In the experience of most players(that started the game from the first campaign), Ascalon south of the Great Northern Wall was from the start of the events of Prophecies human land. And accept that humans have every right to keep it as their own by right of the blood they have lost defending it.

Obsidian.1328:

Dust

Yes Dust, since it is directly related to just about every discussion on GW1vsGW2 lore concerning Ascalon.

This is news to me. I’ve never heard anyone but you bring it up.

From the history of Tyria in the GW1 manual: “But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world. They were neither serpent nor beast. They were neither plant nor stone. These creatures had no chitinous hide to protect themselves. They had no claws to tear flesh. They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.

This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over.

So if we are going to infer into what the writers intended and accept that inference as lore that the writers didn’t need to outright state because they had enough confidence in us "getting it’, then this is a pretty good indication that the charr may have always been planned for owning the land before humanity.

And since they were conquerors from the beginning, they really have no more right to land than anyone else. because others also shed blood for that land as well.

Dust, I think your comment that since Humanity conquered Ascalon they have no better claim than the Charr is but the lastest in polical correctness gone mad. The ArenaNet writers could have written that humanity met with no sentient face upon arrival onto Ascalon, as a means of introducing them. To keep the interest of players Humanity needs to be seen and respected as a strong race capable of rivalling the others.

At this time, as the GW2 lore is now, humanity is under threat of extinction. This may seem irrational but think about it. Human only protection is the Pact treaty. Humanity does not have the ability to defend itself independently against any of the other major races – which at present are the Charr and the Asura.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dust, I think your comment that since Humanity conquered Ascalon they have no better claim than the Charr is but the lastest in polical correctness gone mad. The ArenaNet writers could have written that humanity met with no sentient face upon arrival onto Ascalon, as a means of introducing them. To keep the interest of players Humanity needs to be seen and respected as a strong race capable of rivalling the others.

At this time, as the GW2 lore is now, humanity is under threat of extinction. This may seem irrational but think about it. Human only protection is the Pact treaty. Humanity does not have the ability to defend itself independently against any of the other major races – which at present are the Charr and the Asura.

They could have written it but didn’t. So the lore is that they took it from somebody. if we are going to be fair and unbias, that means humanity has no greater right to any land than anyone else. That’s not wrong. It’s even.

Konig and others have made posts that show that humanity really isn’t on the brink of extinction. They are weaker than when they ruled the world but that doesn’t mean almost extinct. Right now, all playable races are defending themselves and helping each other. Because all races have their own strengths and need help. In the peace treaty charr gave Ebonhawke land. Why would they give Ebonhawke land that they have been fighting over 1000 years for if they were doing just fine? Humans are doing just fine against the centaur. Charr are currently the strongest but also the most tenuous as a true united charr nation means all will need to submit to another city-state that they have been in competition with for the past millenia. Asura ……. are not conquerors. They have little cohesive industry and no organization. Humans would be just fine against an attack from them.

Humanity are fair from doing fine in Kryta. Humanity’s goal in Tyria is to recover a leading position rivalling the Charr. For that they need to exterminate the Centaurs. Its not enough that they area contained. And as for Humanity doing fine overall?

Cantha and Elona are separate continents. I am discussing the primary Kingdoms of Tyria, since we currently only have access to Tyria alone. And in Tyria the situation is far from acceptable.

Why would and the Charr give the Ebonhawke humans land? Pure charity – and…… its ruin land of poor quality. It is infested with the Dragonbrand and minions there of.

The Charr are the strongest militarily only because they were written as such for the mechanics and needs of the Lore as it is now. The truth is humanity would have been at least as capable if what I suggest in reference to the return of Devona and friends to Ascalon instead of being ignored, as per my previous post.

Also any differences that Ascalonians and Krytans felt about each other would have been wiped in an instant as a direct result of the complete catastrophe that is the Searing! Not to mention the sudden sinking of Orr as well. These chain of events would have quickly united the surviving humans of Tyria in ways not considered possible in generations past.

The humans of GW2 cannot withstand a major offensive launch by the Charr or even just the Flame Legion themselves. The Flame Legion now have Dredge technology as well in the form of the Molten Alliance!

Humanity has no such Alliance to call upon. Not even the Pact will be able to withstand such an attack without incurring heavy losses. But this is apart from the point.

The point is, its clear that the Humans of GW2 pose no clear and present danger to any Legion of the Charr Nation. Any single Charr Legion is capable of wipping out Humanity from the face of Tyria WITHOUT risking significant losses – including minimal lose of life!

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Humanity are fair from doing fine in Kryta. Humanity’s goal in Tyria is to recover a leading position rivalling the Charr. For that they need to exterminate the Centaurs. Its not enough that they area contained. And as for Humanity doing fine overall?

Cantha and Elona are separate continents. I am discussing the primary Kingdoms of Tyria, since we currently only have access to Tyria alone. And in Tyria the situation is far from acceptable.

Why would and the Charr give the Ebonhawke humans land? Pure charity – and…… its ruin land of poor quality. It is infested with the Dragonbrand and minions there of.

The Charr are the strongest militarily only because they were written as such for the mechanics and needs of the Lore as it is now. The truth is humanity would have been at least as capable if what I suggest in reference to the return of Devona and friends to Ascalon instead of being ignored, as per my previous post.

Also any differences that Ascalonians and Krytans felt about each other would have been wiped in an instant as a direct result of the complete catastrophe that is the Searing! Not to mention the sudden sinking of Orr as well. These chain of events would have quickly united the surviving humans of Tyria in ways not considered possible in generations past.

The humans of GW2 cannot withstand a major offensive launch by the Charr or even just the Flame Legion themselves. The Flame Legion now have Dredge technology as well in the form of the Molten Alliance!

Humanity has no such Alliance to call upon. Not even the Pact will be able to withstand such an attack without incurring heavy losses. But this is apart from the point.

The point is, its clear that the Humans of GW2 pose no clear and present danger to any Legion of the Charr Nation. Any single Charr Legion is capable of wipping out Humanity from the face of Tyria WITHOUT risking significant losses – including minimal lose of life!

Yeeeeeeeaaaaa……the charr have long been celebrated for their charitable nature :P And they don’t want land of “poor quality” but they fight tooth and nail for haunted land. This is really your reasoning?

The centaur are far from contained. But kryta has also not needed to give them any land.

yes, this is the lore that was written even though it could have been written a million diffret ways. I’ll stick to discussing what was written.

The Iron legion has been assaulting Ebonhawke for a couple centuries. The same Ebonhake that is dependent on Kryta. So clearly one legion is not enough to completely wipe humanity.

Can humanity beat the charr? Nope. But the charr are three nations. Should humanity be brought up to the point of being able to beat three nations at once? I don’t think so. Then they wouldn’t need any alliance.

The “Flame Legion with dredge technology” is again, two nations. Why should humanity be able to beat two nations with no help?

Make note that I stated that Humanity cannot vanquish in battle even a single Charr Legion! Also note that I did not claim that the Charr are in the practice of giving away land out of the charity alone. They did it because they became aware of the threat of Zhatian to all life in Tyria.

And again note I never claimed that Humanity should again be the dominate and leading race in Tyria like the Charr are now I might add.

I did however state that through the combine actions and efforts of Adelbern, Devona and Gwen and their close friends humans in Ascalon can hold their own – with full support from their Krytan friends who over the past 200 odd years have now become close allies as a result of the Searing and their shared experience of being attacked by the Charr Legions.

Humanity in this scenario would at least be respected by the Charr Legions since Humanity would now have the magical prowess, technology and industry to withstand a Charr assault – even though this would still result in a massive lost of life. It is only from this position of real strength – relative and comparable with the other leading races as per GW2 Lore, that Tyrian humanity can truely enter the Pact Treaty as a respected partner race.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Make note that I stated that Humanity cannot vanquish in battle even a single Charr Legion! Also note that I did not claim that the Charr are in the practice of giving away land out of the charity alone. They did it because they became aware of the threat of Zhatian to all life in Tyria.

And again note I never claimed that Humanity should again be the dominate and leading race in Tyria like the Charr are now I might add.

I did however state that through the combine actions and efforts of Adelbern, Devona and Gwen and their close friends humans in Ascalon can hold their own – with full support from their Krytan friends who over the past 200 odd years have now become close allies as a result of the Searing and their shared experience of being attacked by the Charr Legions.

Humanity in this scenario would at least be respected by the Charr Legions since Humanity would now have the magical prowess, technology and industry to withstand a Charr assault – even though this would still result in a massive lost of life. It is only from this position of real strength – relative and comparable with the other leading races as per GW2 Lore, that Tyrian humanity can truely enter the Pact Treaty as a respected partner race.

I made note that you said “Any single Charr Legion is capable of wipping out Humanity from the face of Tyria WITHOUT risking significant losses”

and I made note that you based humanities not being fine on the fact that they aren’t in a leading position “rivaling the charr”. Sounds to me that you need the playable two human kingdoms to be equal in power with the three charr kingdoms. Why? What’s the problem with the charr being the dominant and leading race? If you want humanity to be the top dog or the co-top dog you can get it in every other fantasy setting out there. But them not being top dog is a far cry from your original cries of humanity being almost extinct.

But I’d say the 250 years plus of the Iron legion assaulting Ebonhawke and failing to win against a kingdom that is dependant on another, would have indicated that humanity is a respected partner race.

Humanity have whole Cantha, humanity still have Elona (if anet will make expansion with Elona, we can kick Joko out and make Elona normal again), humanity probably have other worlds.
Kryta =/= humanity. And even Kryta is far from bad shape, they don’t have dragon minions nearby, only barbaric tribes of centaurs (and we pretty much crush ’em in GW2 map events) and bandits.

^This

Battles go back and forth with the centaurs but Kryta is in pretty good shape considering what the other playable races have to contend with.

Let me clarify. I believe that Tyrian humanity in GW2 – that is the combine forces of the nation of Kryta and the nation of (Human) South Ascalon (Ascalon south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall) should now be capable of holding out against an attack of a single Charr Legion not the three combined!

(Note: South Ascalon assumes that the Foefire did not occur and that Ascalon City remains a free human city ruled by the human monarch of the day)

When I said that humanity is close to extinction in current continuity – I still hold this to be the hidden truth. And as far as Ebonhawke being able to survive these past 250 years with Krytan aid?

That’s actually both illogical and impossible based on Humanity’s current level of military strength and magical/technological prowess – in both human nations. Humans have no heavy industry and can’t even manufacture small arms like rifles and pistols or cannon for that matter.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

Dust

Yes Dust, since it is directly related to just about every discussion on GW1vsGW2 lore concerning Ascalon.

This is news to me. I’ve never heard anyone but you bring it up.

From the history of Tyria in the GW1 manual: “But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world. They were neither serpent nor beast. They were neither plant nor stone. These creatures had no chitinous hide to protect themselves. They had no claws to tear flesh. They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.

This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over.

So if we are going to infer into what the writers intended and accept that inference as lore that the writers didn’t need to outright state because they had enough confidence in us "getting it’, then this is a pretty good indication that the charr may have always been planned for owning the land before humanity.

And since they were conquerors from the beginning, they really have no more right to land than anyone else. because others also shed blood for that land as well.

Hey I’ll be the first to admit GW humans are violent. War is a pretty “inherent” to their nature. =D

I’d say that’s a great inference for humans as such, but how does that beget land rights?

Also, if ANet wants to make war an in-game eventuality I’m all for it lol. It would be a welcome break from all this contrived unity. I’d even get onboard for a scenario that wipes humans off the map.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Let me clarify. I believe that Tyrian humanity in GW2 – that is the combine forces of the nation of Kryta and the nation of (Human) South Ascalon (Ascalon south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall) should now be capable of holding out against an attack of a single Charr Legion not the three combined!

(Note: South Ascalon assumes that the Foefire did not occur and that Ascalon City remains a free human city ruled by the human monarch of the day)

When I said that humanity is close to extinction in current continuity – I still hold this to be the hidden truth. And as far as Ebonhawke being able to survive these past 250 years with Krytan aid?

That’s actually both illogical and impossible based on Humanity’s current level of military strength and magical/technological prowess – in both human nations. Humans have no heavy industry and can’t even manufacture small arms like rifles and pistols or cannon for that matter.

It makes sense if we acknowledge a couple truths:

-Defense is far easier than offense. It takes less supplies and resources. In defensible position like forts and strongholds, it also takes less manpower.

-heavy industry isn’t the end all be all of war supplies. Before mass production was embraced during the civil war by the North, rifles and handguns were crafted by artisans like Kryta favours. That isn’t a problem is you have enough weapons for the population. Mass production is really only a big advantage when you have an initial influx of soldiers/customers that need weapons. Judging by how fast the watch knights were produced, humanity seems to have plenty of artisans. So humanity does manufacture rifles and pistols. they just don’t mass produce them. Their artisans craft each one individually.

edit: Since each rifle and pistol produced takes longer to replace, it makes them more valuable to humanity. It also means each one lost is a greater blow but they do have them.

Obsidian.1328:

Hey I’ll be the first to admit GW humans are violent. War is a pretty “inherent” to their nature. =D

I’d say that’s a great inference for humans as such, but how does that beget land rights?

Also, if ANet wants to make war an in-game eventuality I’m all for it lol. It would be a welcome break from all this contrived unity. I’d even get onboard for a scenario that wipes humans off the map.

That’s the beauty. It doesn’t beget land rights. It negates them by making them arbitrary. So the only people with any “rights” are those that have it. And those rights are only from a personal perspective and due to the duty to defend the land you live on in order to continue to live.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

Hey I’ll be the first to admit GW humans are violent. War is a pretty “inherent” to their nature. =D

I’d say that’s a great inference for humans as such, but how does that beget land rights?

Also, if ANet wants to make war an in-game eventuality I’m all for it lol. It would be a welcome break from all this contrived unity. I’d even get onboard for a scenario that wipes humans off the map.

That’s the beauty. It doesn’t beget land rights. It negates them by making them arbitrary. So the only people with any “rights” are those that have it. And those rights are only from a personal perspective and due to the duty to defend the land you live on in order to continue to live.

Alright, sounds good to me. Let the wars begin! It’s like that ownership is 90% of the law thing, love it.

^ Exactlly! Might makes right. That’s the only real law that’s ever been in play anyways. :P

Hey, faction fighting would breath new life into this game. Think about it, Tyria divided up into 5 kingdoms, each of em tryin’ to kill the other. Using DE’s as battles with famous NPC’s on the front lines. Boundaries constantly being redrawn.

/sigh

I don’t know why some people are assuming that Lord Samuelsson is a rightful King of Ascalon. The monarch of Ascalon is descended from the very same person that the monarch of Kryta is and Lord Samuelsson’s claim that he is descended from Kings of Ascalon could mean anything. He could be descended through illegitimate means, or his ancestors simply could of been married off further, and further away from the Crown whereas Queen Jennah’s ancestors have remained very directly connected and this would actually make her a much closer relation and thus a far more legitimate claimant to the throne of Ascalon.

I really don’t believe Lord Samuelsson has been a particularly wonderful leader, either for that matter. The people of Ebonhawke are a divided bunch who don’t really seem to have much of a positive opinion about him. He is not the one who managed to negotiate a truce with the Charr, and thus negotiate the (albeit) tenuous alliance that now has Charr & Human’s helping each other in re-settling and expanding out back into Ascalon. These are the accomplishments of the Queen, Lord Samuelsson hasn’t even really kept order in his own city which is now directly connected to Divinity’s Reach through the Asura Gates, and the Seraph have been filing into Ebonhawke and already have set up a base of operations recruiting from Ebonhawke, training them, and helping them maintain as much order as possible and reclaim the land outside of the city. The Seraph are the Queen’s branch of military, and there are just as many supporters of the Queen which would presumably be growing in number as the only victories and successes are being seen from the Queen’s actions, not Lord Samuelsson who appears to just stand there and gloat about his supposed lineage.

Also, Queen Jennah is officially the Queen-Regent of Ascalon according to her Wiki page.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah

When you get down to talking about who has the more legitimate claim to the Ascalonian throne, I think it’s hard to argue against the victor being Queen Jennah.

What the people of Ebonhawke specifically want could be another matter entirely, but the Queen has a great many supporters both in, and outside of Ebonhawke so I don’t think we’d be seeing two separate Kingdoms so much as a sort of merging of the two. Most of Ascalon immigrated to Kryta, many of them would be very prominent Ascalonian families and the acceptance and support from Kryta would not go completely ignored by any of them that remained in that region.

Shanna unfortunately I can’t fault you on any of the points you have raised like many others also have based on current GW2 Lore which is why I’ve suggested that there needs to be major revision to the Lore in regards to Humanity starting with events immediately following the marriage of Gwen and Keiran.

Namely, as I’ve repeatedly stated that Devona and her friends Mhenlo, Cynn, Aidan and Eve return to Ascalon City, Join Ascalon’s Chosen and pass on their battle experience to the defenders of Ascalon and help defend the city thus saving human Ascalon which I’ve now called South Ascalon as per being south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall.

This is the only way that humanity can stay relevant in Tyria (as different from Cantha and Elona, major parts of the Shiverpeaks – ie area around former Gunnar’s Hold and Olafstead). Its the only way that humanity stand on its own as a worthy, respected partner race within the Pact Treaty.

For at this point in time within current continuity their membership is an act of charity on the part of the other four major races.

Humanity already are relevant in Tyria at the moment…

Look at the Queen’s Jubilee update, that existed almost for the sole purpose of showing us that humanity is making positive advancements and it still going at it strong…

Also it’s hardly an act of charity on the part of the other major races, or have you somehow managed to completely miss the numerous humans dotted all over the map who partake in important things…

I’m pretty sure that what you want Nicholas is for humans to be THE most important race, which isn’t going to happen – this is not a game about humans, this is a game about humans, sylvari, charr, norn and asura.

Obsidian.1328:

Also, if ANet wants to make war an in-game eventuality I’m all for it lol. It would be a welcome break from all this contrived unity. I’d even get onboard for a scenario that wipes humans off the map.

When you put it like that, I’m not surprised that you’re an Adelbern supporter. XD

Humanity may continue to be relevant in events and story treads of GW2, but they are NOT respected as a race as a military threat, not by the Charr Legions. And a military that is not a treat is undeserving of respect!

A Charr warband would not automatically consider an equivalent human unit to be equally capable – unless said unit has a known reputation. Where-as that human unit – say a company(or platoon) of Ebon Vanguard would automatically respect its Charr equivalent. And that is a clear illustration of my point.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Humanity may continue to be relevant in events and story treads of GW2, but they are NOT respected as a race as a military threat, not by the Charr Legions. And a military that is not a treat is undeserving of respect!

A Charr warband would not automatically consider an equivalent human unit to be equally capable – unless said unit has a known reputation. Where-as that human unit – say a company(or platoon) of Ebon Vanguard would automatically respect its Charr equivalent. And that is a clear illustration of my point.

Charr in general don’t care about reputation from past days. They respect someone only if he is able to build his reputation by himself. This is their social standard.

Citizen: Look at those humans. Just a bunch of walking meat.
Citizen(2): What do you have against humans? They’re fighting on our side these days.
Citizen: So? A human got to prove himself, just as anyone else.

‘Citizen: Why do you give the outsiders so much grief?
Citizen(2): They’re weak. I hate weakness.
Citizen: But now they’re insiders. They live here.
Citizen(2): And they have to earn the right to stay, just like the rest of us.

Rednik has a good point. Charr have their warband mentality. if a member becomes a burden they become gladium. In a way that is a sign of equal respect because they expect the same standards that they expect out of themselves.