I realize it may have made Scarlet go insane. But the commander has also gone through the machine without incident.
Why don’t we send all Sylvari through the machine? They won’t see everything, but they will see some. And some would add up in their racial memory.
Then we would have some Sylvari born with a tremendous talent in alchemy.
What the….I don’t even…..
What the….I don’t even…..
Sylvari memories are combined in the Dream.
If one person sees an image for under a second they might not be able to completely describe it. But if one million people do it you can average their descriptions of the photo. Same with one Sylvari seeing the All.
You keep using the term “The All” in both of your threads, but we actually DON’T know if Omadd’s machine actually does show the Eternal Alchemy. I forget the asura’s name, but an NPC made the assertion that Omadd’s machine only shows what’s in your own mind.
Secondly, if it does indeed “show the all” or whatever you want to call it….why would putting the entire Sylvari race into the thing (one at a time too!) be a good idea?
Well what we saw was The All (not the Eternal Alchemy – they’re two separate things).
But yeah, why would this be a good idea, exactly? It should be noted that not all memories go to the Dream, and traumatic experiences (such as going in that machine… especially forced into it) can lead sylvari towards the Nightmare.
Well what we saw was The All (not the Eternal Alchemy – they’re two separate things).
But yeah, why would this be a good idea, exactly? It should be noted that not all memories go to the Dream, and traumatic experiences (such as going in that machine… especially forced into it) can lead sylvari towards the Nightmare.
Not all memories? Are you referring to the Nightmare Court or Mallyck?
As a consequence of adherence to tenet seven (where life goes) the Dream will slowly become the largest repository of Tyrian knowledge. But it won’t know everything.
50% of the sylvari who entered Omadd’s machine have not had traumatic experiences. But 100% were unable to fully parse what they saw. Willing scholars could risk it and supply the Dream with more information and someday, in composite, the Dream would know the All.
Its beneficial when multiple sylvari tackle seemingly incomprehensible subjects.
If Taimi has to see it, she is gaining something from sensation that she isn’t from reading Apostate’s tome or the various charts in the Priory. This information in subjective conscious experience is called qualia.
Other than mind reading, the Dream is the only possible way of acquiring qualia from another. Moreover it does it better than any known telepath. It’s a priceless yet unpredictable resource.
By “not all memories” I’m referring to the fact that only the more emotional memories are put into the Dream and as people get used to those emotions the less those events are put into the Dream. This is why the Nightmare Court stop having their memories put into the Dream – because they become more and more used to the pain and suffering they receive/inflict that it’s no longer an emotional moment.
And in all honesty, it isn’t that “50% of the sylvari who entered Omadd’s machine have not had traumatic experiences” – the Pact Commander acted rather traumatized by the event, even non-sylvari.
And even then, the Pact Commander is hardly a good example of status quo since we’re obviously above and beyond even the heroes of Tyria. Normal sylvari being forced into the machine against their will, will no doubt bite one in the kitten tenfold.
And you’re acting like the sylvari are the sole ties to the sylvari when they’re not. The Dream existed before them, and hold ties to beings not related to Mordremoth or the sylvari (such as the White Stag). Who’s to say that the Dream doesn’t already incorporate a large portion of The All – just that sylvari cannot (perhaps properly so) access it.
By “not all memories” I’m referring to the fact that only the more emotional memories are put into the Dream and as people get used to those emotions the less those events are put into the Dream. This is why the Nightmare Court stop having their memories put into the Dream – because they become more and more used to the pain and suffering they receive/inflict that it’s no longer an emotional moment.
And in all honesty, it isn’t that “50% of the sylvari who entered Omadd’s machine have not had traumatic experiences” – the Pact Commander acted rather traumatized by the event, even non-sylvari.
And even then, the Pact Commander is hardly a good example of status quo since we’re obviously above and beyond even the heroes of Tyria. Normal sylvari being forced into the machine against their will, will no doubt bite one in the kitten tenfold.
And you’re acting like the sylvari are the sole ties to the sylvari when they’re not. The Dream existed before them, and hold ties to beings not related to Mordremoth or the sylvari (such as the White Stag). Who’s to say that the Dream doesn’t already incorporate a large portion of The All – just that sylvari cannot (perhaps properly so) access it.
Source for the first part? The Nightmare is a location within the overall Dream that is separate from the part the Pale Tree accesses. Whether the Nightmare Court stops sending memories to the Nightmare is unknown.
I don’t remember my character being particularly traumatized from Omadd’s machine, then again nor was I by Mordremoth’s call. So it may be more frightening for non-commanders.
What is not in our part of the Dream or the Nightmare is irrelevant. The Sylvari are the only active race with ties to the Dream. And so far they have only accessed their own race’s memory.
Source? The first piece of lore on sylvari is the source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare
Only a few memories reach the Pale Tree: the most important or those that have the greatest emotional impact or meaning. They can include entire scenes from a sylvari’s life, such as their first battle or their first time cooking an apple pie. They can also be a single poignant moment such as pain, fear, or the face of an enemy.
In order to achieve this goal, the Nightmare Court commit acts of evil both upon sylvari and non-sylvari alike. When their own emotions become too jaded to be likely gathered into the tree, they rely on harming and tormenting other sylvari and giving them memories, horrible emotions, and other traumas in the hope that those memories will be sharp enough to be gathered.
As for the PC being traumatized, well being a plot-armor character that trauma didn’t last long but you should pay attention to the dialogue right after leaving the machine:
Boss? Are you okay? Take deep breaths.
→ It was incredible.
What was? What are you talking about?
→ I had a vision. I saw it. The Eternal Alchemy.
You what? You’re going to have to explain. I don’t understand.
→ I’ll try. I saw how Tyria is woven, and…I’m tied up in it. Somehow.
Okay, I think you need to rest awhile. Do you hurt anywhere?
→ Listen. Vast energies flow through and around Tyria, and I saw a dragon. It…um…
It what? What did you see?
→ It was part of the workings of the world. It came at me.
That sounds like a terrible nightmare.
→ I also saw the Pale Tree at the heart of a vast moving puzzle, as Scarlet did.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Machine#Dialogue
That reaction is very similar to Scarlet’s:
Motionless, Omadd stared wide-eyed at his former student.
“It worked,” Scarlet said. “I suppose I should thank you for that, though I bet I would have figured it out on my own eventually. Still, no reason to begrudge a genius his due, right?”
Omadd did not reply.
Scarlet giggled as she raised her hand to her face and watched the red thorn vine chase itself between her fingers. “So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design.
“But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw
Scarlet Briar: I saw it all. I saw the Eternal Alchemy.
Scarlet Briar: (breathes) I killed Omadd, my mentor. I am no one’s lab rat.
(voice emphasizes the awed reaction)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prosperity's_Mystery#Additional_interactive_objects
Both had similar reactions, one full of awe and slight trauma. Scarlet’s negative reaction came later, much later, as shown in her journal. It began nearly a full year later.
Mordremoth’s call didn’t come right away.
What is not in our part of the Dream or the Nightmare is irrelevant. The Sylvari are the only active race with ties to the Dream. And so far they have only accessed their own race’s memory.
I just explicitly said that the sylvari are not the only race with ties to the Dream.
And I’d say the presence of the Nightmare proves that they have more than just access to their own race’s memory. Not to mention that the Pale Tree definitely has more access than that, as proven by A Light in the Darkness. And, not to mention, the Wyld Hunts which tell certain sylvari more than what the race knows (like Wynne’s telling her that the sylvari come from Mordremoth).
On top of that, the Pale Tree seemed to already know what Scarlet would see, and what the Commander saw when the Commander went through. It’s likely that whatever can be seen in Omadd’s machine is already in the Dream. It may even be (although this is a bit of a long shot) that the way the machine actually works is through accessing a part of the Dream that the Pale Tree has been deliberately trying to keep blocked off.
Well what we saw was The All (not the Eternal Alchemy – they’re two separate things).
But yeah, why would this be a good idea, exactly? It should be noted that not all memories go to the Dream, and traumatic experiences (such as going in that machine… especially forced into it) can lead sylvari towards the Nightmare.
It may kill them all. That’s why it may be a good idea.
@Konig “it was incredible” sounds more like exhilaration than trauma. A roller-coaster produces stress but it doesn’t maim the psyche.
And these reactions are more likely to be imprinted because of their emotional impact.
@Drax The Pale Tree sees the most current additions to the Dream, including Ceara’s vision. This is why there is a slight delay before the Pale Tree warns her to stop. She saw the very beginning of the vision, and felt her protection slipping, its not hard to assume what the rest of the vision will entail. It’s possible the whole vision was uploaded which is why she already knew what the Commander saw.
We’ve seen that the Dream can provide knowledge of things that were unknown to the sylvari – the A Light In The Darkness instance is an example therof. The sylvari provide experiences to the Dream, but they are not the sole source.
We’ve seen that the Dream can provide knowledge of things that were unknown to the sylvari – the A Light In The Darkness instance is an example therof. The sylvari provide experiences to the Dream, but they are not the sole source.
It’s is certainly a possibility but not a given.
For the purpose of this discussion, the Pale Tree clearly responded to Ceara experiencing the All. If it turns out that the All is not yet within the Sylvari portion of the Dream, having scholars view it would help future dreamers. Having two viewpoints on a situation is a useful.
I’d say it certainly is a given, given that the sylvari are not the only ones tied to it. I mean, Mordremoth and the White Stag would add to the Dream. Even if Wynne’s Wyld Hunt and A Light in the Darkness (and, for that matter, Hearts and Minds) are not proof enough, Mordremoth’s connection should be.
And, again, I don’t see how having something that drives to insanity (partial or fully) is beneficial….
I’d say it certainly is a given, given that the sylvari are not the only ones tied to it. I mean, Mordremoth and the White Stag would add to the Dream. Even if Wynne’s Wyld Hunt and A Light in the Darkness (and, for that matter, Hearts and Minds) are not proof enough, Mordremoth’s connection should be.
And, again, I don’t see how having something that drives to insanity (partial or fully) is beneficial….
In context we were discussing whether the dream already contains the All. It’s a possibility other parts have it, but it’s irrelevant to the discussion. The Sylvari are the only sources to their section. We may see a White Stag but we don’t know what it’s like to be one.
As for your other point. First of all it doesn’t have to drive people to insanity. We wouldn’t leave people in as long as Scarlet. Second we know it’s emotional enough to be uploaded.
The maps of the Antikytheria are horrible and there is no way to improve them. A person seeing the All once can’t grasp the detail, and a person seeing it several times might go insane. A sylvari with several experiences could accurately update existing representations.
Now for a stretch. When all is said and done won’t the Pale Tree be the strongest user of the Mind Domain on the planet? Could she make….? :
If the soundless are any indication the current dreamer could not synthesize so many benign perspectives without it becoming traumatic. But maybe the pale tree can do it for us till then.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Actually, we don’t know that the sylvari don’t receive information from the experiences of non-sylvari. If you take the White Stag starting personal story… where did that Wyld Hunt come from? How do we know that came from a sylvari? Was it actually that the source of the PC’s Dream in that story was coming directly from the White Stag’s experience of being hunted by the Nightmare Court?
For that matter, the explanation for how sylvari are born with a profession is through the Dream… but what about the Firstborn? They’d have to have received their skills from a Dream without sylvari input, or at least without input from the sylvari born from the Pale Tree.
Certainly, the Pale Tree herself seems to know a lot that regular sylvari don’t. Where regular sylvari see only snippets, she does seem to know pretty much everything that’s in the Dream. I’d consider it highly likely that she already knows, and possibly already knew before Scarlet, everything that can be seen through Omadd’s machine, and would be highly adverse to your proposal.
Actually, we don’t know that the sylvari don’t receive information from the experiences of non-sylvari. If you take the White Stag starting personal story… where did that Wyld Hunt come from? How do we know that came from a sylvari? Was it actually that the source of the PC’s Dream in that story was coming directly from the White Stag’s experience of being hunted by the Nightmare Court?
For that matter, the explanation for how sylvari are born with a profession is through the Dream… but what about the Firstborn? They’d have to have received their skills from a Dream without sylvari input, or at least without input from the sylvari born from the Pale Tree.
Certainly, the Pale Tree herself seems to know a lot that regular sylvari don’t. Where regular sylvari see only snippets, she does seem to know pretty much everything that’s in the Dream. I’d consider it highly likely that she already knows, and possibly already knew before Scarlet, everything that can be seen through Omadd’s machine, and would be highly adverse to your proposal.
If chosen White Stag:
<Character name>: I dream of voyages. The voices of my people whisper to me of far-off places and mysterious shores.
<Character name>: A white stag races before me, brave and wild, it offers me the gift of freedom.
<Character name>: The Dream hints at my future.
<Character name>: There are distant lands and dangerous challenges—but also, I see my home. A grove with a white tree, and friends who will stand by me when I need them.
<Character name>: My honor dictates that I help those who are lost and alone. I am their protector.
<Character name>: I hear my name in the wind, and I feel the call of my future.
The information came from you in the future.
There is no indication any of the firstborn were born with a profession. And those that were known for one traveled extensively. Moreover level 1 sylvari have barely any knowledge which matches the trend for first experiences being uploaded.
The Pale Tree has the capacity to grasp the All but she does not know everything in the Dream. She knows everything Sylvari have ever uploaded. But she is an underused resource as I said.
That monologue doesn’t say that the information came from the future PC. The third line is simply a glimpse of the prophetic ability of the Dream, and may in this case simply being a reference to the Wyld Hunt that the PC is expected to undertake. The final line is just a fancy way of saying that the character is looking to play their role in the world.
Regarding the Firstborn: We’ve been told that the main reason people don’t switch professions very often in Guild Wars 2 is because professions require a significant time investment to master – the analogy is made to completing a PhD and then turning around and starting over in a different discipline. That suggests at least 4 years of study, and that’s assuming that the scientist in question is still able to build off their undergraduate study and other existing foundations. Learning the first profession, if we hold to that analogy, is likely to be something on the order of seven years.
The Firstborn were masters of their professions at the time of the birth of the ‘secondborn’, about two years afterwards. It is not credible that they would have achieved that, without any teachers whatsoever (the memory instances in S2E7 are after some friendly contacts have occurred, but their first friendly contacts were not with their nearest neighbours: they had to cross a lot of hostile territory first), if they were starting from scratch.
Furthermore, ArenaNet has said that sylvari are born with the basic skills of their adventuring profession*, and there has never been an indication that the Firstborn are any different. While that may be an omission, with the various other information we have, seems the evidence is pointing to the Firstborn being no exception to the rule.
When it comes to the Pale Tree’s knowledge: we’ve seen that she can see things that no sylvari has known (A Light In The Darkness, for example). She probably doesn’t know everything in the Dream, but we don’t know if there are any barriers to her knowledge outside her own limited attention capacity.
*Granted, for a level 1 sylvari, this is pretty basic… however, it’s the same as a level 1 asura doing the final project for their graduation, a level 1 charr fighting on the front lines, or a level 1 norn participating in the Great Hunt. Characters of all races have received enough instruction in their combat skills to be considered combat-ready, it’s just that for the sylvari the instructor is the Dream.
If you are deciding to not take a piece of lore literally, you should back up your interpretation.
From A Light in the Darkness:
Avatar of the Tree: You must soon enter the vision, and gain a glimpse of what may be.
>What do you mean, “vision”
The portal before you is a passage into the Dream. There, you will see glimpses of the past, the present, and the future.
The Dream is made of aether, and it has a non linear expression of time. The firstborn could have learned their professions from themselves. We’ve seen things Sylvari will know. There is more than one possible origin:
We don’t know for certain.
What is implied is that the Dream will store the experience of viewing the All. Maybe it will only record the very beginning, but even that is incomprehensible for mapwork.
If the Pale Tree does know more than she is letting on, great, then we don’t have to do any of this.
But given that she has yet to explain the PC exactly what his vision means, more data is probably necessary.
- the knowledge wasn’t learned, we are exaggerating how much the firstborn knew.
Alright, usually I dislike going for scientific theories in fantasy universes, but I feel the point will apply.
Firstly, the firstborn had to have prior knowledge by the basic fact that they all didn’t die from thirst and hunger their first week after coming into the world. We also know that these sylvari had to have learned to communicate in order to, well, accomplish anything really. That’s a MASSIVE amount of knowledge right there, which we take for granted because it’s taken basically our whole life to get to this point of knowledge, communication and ability to not poison themselves on some random berries. The firstborn had no one to teach them. While it might make quite a hilarious montage of adult looking plant beings crawling around, nibbling on anything in sight and saying “goo goo ga ga”, I doubt that was the reality of what the firstborn experienced.
Now obviously there are biological factors that are apparent in animals that could be applied to the firstborn, such as the natural ability to figure out how to feed themselves and how to walk without falling over, also basic biology like “bitter things means possibly poison”, gag reflexes etc. but that doesn’t explain not only the sheer amount of knowledge when it comes to learning words but also the knowledge to then form cohesive sentences, understand grammar and other nuances of language that takes several years in a normal human to develop. Also, considering that our ability to learn languages is optimal in a very young stage in our life, it makes it much more difficult for the sylvari to have learned a language from outsiders if we take the stance that sylvari plant biology mimics human adult biology. Also we’re talking about all 12 sylvari either individually learning new krytan from one or many teachers (which is highly unlikely, considering asuran interactions with early sylvari) or that one sylvari learned new krytan and then taught the other 11 sylvari flawlessly (considering the sylvari timeline, I doubt that they had enough time to learn and then teach the other sylvari an entire language before the first of the secondborn came).
That’s just too much for the sylvari to actively learn from an outside source. THEN, on top of all that, sylvari also had to figure out how to not only forage food, but also hunt (since we know they’re omnivores), so they had to know how to craft a bow and arrow (i doubt animals would be chill with a walking plant thing coming up to them), then learn how to track, aim, fire, not break the string a thousand times (or have the arrow fly as far as an unenthusiastic baby bird) and then how to cook food without burning the forest down (by placing rocks around dry wood).
THEN, we get to the sylvari’s own natural ability to grow almost anything they need using their inborn magic. We’re talking about their ability to not only grow the ‘clothes’ that they wear (which eventually leads into the sylvari developing their own style of fashion), but also the houses that they live in (and possibly their weapons, though i could be wrong about the verdant weapons that they use, though Caladbolg was grown from a thorn of the pale tree, this could have been the pale tree’s actions and not those of the sylvari) AND self defense things like plant turrets, walls, thorny vine gate things.
THEN we get to the amount of battle strategy that the sylvari would have to learn (considering how they have fully defended towns), the ability to expand their own territory, learning how not to kill themselves with their own weapons.
It’s literally impossible for the sylvari race to NOT be born with some form of inborn knowledge. Otherwise the firstborn would be DEAD, and it would take quite a few generations of sylvari to learn anything of use. Instead we have two generations, the firstborn and secondborn. And the firstborn definitely did not learn all of that on their own or from some outside source.
EDIT: OH RIGHT ONE MORE THING, the sylvari had to have known what the day-night cycle was AND HOW IT’S RELEVANT TO SYLVARI BIRTHS. They were born with an inherent knowledge of what time is and how to understand it, it’s relevance, and then make stereotypes of personality from what little info was given to them.
There’s probably way more knowledge than what i’ve put down, but basically the sylvari were born with a massive amount of knowledge, they had to learn it from the dream.
(except the biggest hole in this theory is Malyck, if he didn’t have the dream, where the hell did his knowledge of all of the above come from?)
(edited by castlemanic.3198)
If you are deciding to not take a piece of lore literally, you should back up your interpretation.
Except nothing in what you say literally said “I received knowledge from my future”. What is there, though, while open for interpretation, are some fairly standard poetic turns of phrase.
The Dream is similar to the Mists, in that it contains glimpses of possible futures. So one could argue that some of the Pale Tree’s knowledge of the future comes from things seen by sylvari (and, likely, other beings connected to the Dream) in possible futures.
However, if we take this viewpoint, your idea is still a bad one. If the Pale Tree is seeing things from possible futures, than all we’d need it for there to be a possible future where that happened, and she’d have the information. Maybe that’s where the information she has came from in the first place. We don’t need to actually perform the experiment.
Plus, there’s a figure in Canthan lore which pretty much exists as a reminder to not take the Mists for granted.
If you are deciding to not take a piece of lore literally, you should back up your interpretation.
Except nothing in what you say literally said “I received knowledge from my future”. What is there, though, while open for interpretation, are some fairly standard poetic turns of phrase.
The Dream is similar to the Mists, in that it contains glimpses of possible futures. So one could argue that some of the Pale Tree’s knowledge of the future comes from things seen by sylvari (and, likely, other beings connected to the Dream) in possible futures.
However, if we take this viewpoint, your idea is still a bad one. If the Pale Tree is seeing things from possible futures, than all we’d need it for there to be a possible future where that happened, and she’d have the information. Maybe that’s where the information she has came from in the first place. We don’t need to actually perform the experiment.
Plus, there’s a figure in Canthan lore which pretty much exists as a reminder to not take the Mists for granted.
You are free to say I am taking it too literally. You still need show why. The words are flowery but they aren’t similes or metaphors. There is no winter of discontent.
The view from the future is one of many. But even within that scenario there is no guarantee she sees all possible futures. Or perhaps this is the future she saw. In which case we will be doing it anyway to satisfy the paradox.
The phrases you’re leaning on are phrases that are used fairly often in literature. They’re not intended to mean ’I’m receiving information from the future’.
Furthermore, let’s break them down:
“The Dream hints at my future.”
First, it is possible that events in the present or the past can provide hints to the future. To take a mundane example, for instance, if someone receives a job offer, that hints that they may be working that job in the future.
Second, taking a less mundane interpretation, we know that the Dream has prophetic qualities, so seeing glimpses of possible futures through the Dream is no surprise. However, this line says nothing about where this is coming from.
Moving on:
“I feel the call of my future.”
This literally says that the PC, well, feels the call of their future. This is very open to interpretation. To refer back to my earlier mundane example, someone who has received a job offer and is eager to accept could be said to be “feeling the call of their future (job)”, if one was inclined to use a poetic turn of phrase. Furthermore, we know a Wyld Hunt acts as a call to perform a certain action – this is probably the most likely interpretation of this line.
In neither case does the literal interpretation mean “I have received information from my future self”. If you want me to give justification for not taking these lines literally, you first need to demonstrate that your interpretation is the literal one in the first place, and I don’t see how that can be.
Regarding paradoxes: With the way the Mists work, and it seems the Dream is similar, there is no paradox. A potential future was still a potential future regardless of whether it came to pass or not, and in the case of the Mists at least, the reflection of that potential future probably remains in the Mists regardless of whether it came to pass or not.
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
- the knowledge wasn’t learned, we are exaggerating how much the firstborn knew.
Alright, usually I dislike going for scientific theories in fantasy universes, but I feel the point will apply. [snip]
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
So I’ll admit I got side tracked by that one comment instead of focusing on the issue itself. My bad.
But I think the last point I made is relevant to the discussion. Malyck (according to the wiki) claims he doesn’t know what the Dream is.
I hate to be self referential, but look at all the knowledge that had to be given to Malyck, a sylvari from another Pale Tree that, apparently, isn’t connected to the Dream.
We also know that Mordremoth is connected to the dream, which is how he tried to corrupt the sylvari, which would indicate that this other Pale Tree should have some form of connection to the dream, but doesn’t for some reason.
Malyck (as far as the wiki shows) doesn’t have a profession, though I doubt that he is incapable of defending himself. This leads to a couple of questions:
Is this knowledge somehow embedded in the Pale Trees themselves instead of coming from the Dream? If the trees inherently have the information, what role does the Dream play? If all info comes from the Dream, how can Malyck know how to speak a language and all the nuance that comes with it (and why does Malyck feel no connection to the Dream if even the soundless can’t fully disconnect from the Dream)?
…you first need to demonstrate that your interpretation is the literal one in the first place, and I don’t see how that can be.
Regarding paradoxes: With the way the Mists work, and it seems the Dream is similar, there is no paradox. A potential future was still a potential future regardless of whether it came to pass or not, and in the case of the Mists at least, the reflection of that potential future probably remains in the Mists regardless of whether it came to pass or not.
The past/present can only hint at a future if you have a past/present, the Sylvari have neither in the Dream. The call of my future can reference a calling like a Wyld Hunt or that their future selves are literally connecting to them in some way through the Dream.
Moreover, it could be both. Perhaps Wyld Hunts are merely deterministic impulses to satisfy a possible future.
Your statement on paradoxes is correct. Still we don’t know whether the Pale Tree has seen a future with the all or not.
Perhaps the Pale Tree could work with Dessa to stabilize her visions.
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
So I’ll admit I got side tracked by that one comment instead of focusing on the issue itself. My bad.
But I think the last point I made is relevant to the discussion. Malyck (according to the wiki) claims he doesn’t know what the Dream is.
I hate to be self referential, but look at all the knowledge that had to be given to Malyck, a sylvari from another Pale Tree that, apparently, isn’t connected to the Dream.
We also know that Mordremoth is connected to the dream, which is how he tried to corrupt the sylvari, which would indicate that this other Pale Tree should have some form of connection to the dream, but doesn’t for some reason.
Malyck (as far as the wiki shows) doesn’t have a profession, though I doubt that he is incapable of defending himself. This leads to a couple of questions:
Is this knowledge somehow embedded in the Pale Trees themselves instead of coming from the Dream? If the trees inherently have the information, what role does the Dream play? If all info comes from the Dream, how can Malyck know how to speak a language and all the nuance that comes with it (and why does Malyck feel no connection to the Dream if even the soundless can’t fully disconnect from the Dream)?
I highly doubt Mordremoth’s mental abilities solely extend to the Dream. Otherwise he would be knows as the Dream Dragon and not the Mind Dragon.
But on the subject of knowledge, the Pale Tree has nothing that resembles sensory organs. Still she is able to acquire information using her Avatar. Perhaps she was taught New Kryta by Ronan/Ventari.
Malyck is an anomaly. He does not behave like Mordrem Guard yet he professes to be unconnected from the Dream. I don’t think we have enough data to explain his existence.
From memory, although it’s a while ago, Malyck used thief skills. The GW2 wiki generally doesn’t identify profession because it isn’t clearly identifiable in game mechanics like it usually was in GW1, but you can usually get a pretty good idea from the skills they use.
The past/present can only hint at a future if you have a past/present, the Sylvari have neither in the Dream.
Actually, they do. The very first instance you play as a sylvari is your character’s present in the Dream. And even if you assume that the start of the instance is the first time the sylvari PC became conscious, they have a past in the Dream as soon as a moment has passed.
But that’s all beside the point. More importantly, the world outside, and the reflection of the world outside in the Dream, has a present and past regardless of the sylvari PC’s experiences. If the Dream showed visions of the past and present relevant to the sylvari PC’s Wyld Hunt, and the PC recognised that those visions were relevant to their Wyld Hunt, then these visions would be hints about their future, even if they come from the past.
To give a real-world example: Let’s say that you’re working at a job, and somebody gives you a video of a meeting that your employers had yesterday, where they discuss their plans to fire you tomorrow. The video itself might be a vision of past events, but it’s a pretty bluntly obvious “hint” as to what’s coming in your future. You don’t need your future self to build a time machine after you get fired and send you a message back in time to have a pretty good idea of what’s coming – you can make a prediction based purely on past events.
I highly doubt Mordremoth’s mental abilities solely extend to the Dream. Otherwise he would be knows as the Dream Dragon and not the Mind Dragon.
But on the subject of knowledge, the Pale Tree has nothing that resembles sensory organs. Still she is able to acquire information using her Avatar. Perhaps she was taught New Kryta by Ronan/Ventari.
Malyck is an anomaly. He does not behave like Mordrem Guard yet he professes to be unconnected from the Dream. I don’t think we have enough data to explain his existence.
What I talked about was Mordremoths specific ability to attempt to corrupt sylvari through the dream. That’s a far cry from saying Mordremoths ability is only Dream related.
What I was implying is that every Pale Tree/blighting tree should have a connection to the Dream due to Mordremoths inherent connection to it, because they are all Modremoths minions (Pale Trees are purified blighting trees after all). Thus, Malyck and seemingly his Pale Tree are not connected to the Dream, which leads to the questions I posed before.
I doubt that the avatar learned how to fight or hunt from Ronan and Ventari due to their now pacifist lifestyles by the time they found and tended to the seed of the tree. Maybe cook and eat, maybe. According to the wiki page on New Krytan it was, and I quote, “designed by the Durmand Priory as a compromise between the Old Ascalonian and Old Krytan alphabets and accepted as an official language in 1105 AE”, with Ventari having died in 1180 AE (according to the wiki). So yeah it’s plausible that before Ventari died he could have informed the Pale Tree about the nuances of New Krytan.
But what about Malyck. If Malyck’s Pale Tree isn’t connected to the Dream and we assume that Ventari/Ronan taught our Pale Tree New Krytan, cooking and eating, where did the other Pale Tree get it’s info from. Remember, Malyck has sylvari virtues of courage and loyalty, so those are seemingly inborn traits of the sylvari (well most sylvari) provided by Pale Trees. So, we come to the question once more on where the sylvari obtain their information. If it’s not the Dream, and it’s not Ventari/Ronan, then it must come from somewhere else.
We need more info on this is basically what I’m getting at.
From memory, although it’s a while ago, Malyck used thief skills. The GW2 wiki generally doesn’t identify profession because it isn’t clearly identifiable in game mechanics like it usually was in GW1, but you can usually get a pretty good idea from the skills they use.
To be fair, though, he also specifically says that the Wardens taught him how to fight. That part didn’t come from his not-Dream.
….[snip] you can make a prediction based purely on past events.
You can, but they don’t.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7RFX0gB0A0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqmpnHtepiY
Any past that hints at your future is either from events that never happened or those that were witnessed by your own people. Your past and present in the Dream is occupied by dreaming.
Using your video example the past would be someone selectively editing footage of your boss to make it look like he was firing you, and then he fires you. The footage did not hint at your future, the editor did. As we learned in the A Light in the Darkness, the Dream will use composites of the past/present/future to create its prescient visions.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
….[snip] you can make a prediction based purely on past events.
You can, but they don’t.
They kinda do, everything noted within that video is someone in the past having brought information to the dream, which was then passed on to the PC (in this example specifically). The dream then presents this information in a manner of “this thing is happening according to the info we gathered, you should do something about it” (extremely crude representation please don’t shoot me).
In this way, Drax’s point stands. The future is hinted at through the events experienced by others and handed over to the PC in the form of the Dream.
….[snip] you can make a prediction based purely on past events.
You can, but they don’t.
They kinda do, everything noted within that video is someone in the past having brought information to the dream, which was then passed on to the PC (in this example specifically). The dream then presents this information in a manner of “this thing is happening according to the info we gathered, you should do something about it” (extremely crude representation please don’t shoot me).
In this way, Drax’s point stands. The future is hinted at through the events experienced by others and handed over to the PC in the form of the Dream.
I think you commented while I was mid edit. Sorry about that.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Like Castlemanic said: Who cares if the video was entire or edited snippets? It’s still the past hinting at the future. I’d imagine that if someone wanted to use a video as evidence of imminent unemployment, they’d show the relevant parts rather than an entire meeting if multiple items were discussed.
When it comes to A Light In The Darkness… The evidence points to that not coming from sylvari. It has knowledge that no sylvari knew at the time. You could argue that it could be assembled from the experiences of future sylvari… but then you’re getting into Mists weirdness, and it’s easier to just wave it off as such. Nothing you have put forward provides evidence for your core claim: that the Dream exclusively receives information from sylvari. In fact, we’ve been explicitly told that there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream, which suggests the opposite.
Like Castlemanic said: Who cares if the video was entire or edited snippets? It’s still the past hinting at the future. I’d imagine that if someone wanted to use a video as evidence of imminent unemployment, they’d show the relevant parts rather than an entire meeting if multiple items were discussed.
When it comes to A Light In The Darkness… The evidence points to that not coming from sylvari. It has knowledge that no sylvari knew at the time. You could argue that it could be assembled from the experiences of future sylvari… but then you’re getting into Mists weirdness, and it’s easier to just wave it off as such. Nothing you have put forward provides evidence for your core claim: that the Dream exclusively receives information from sylvari. In fact, we’ve been explicitly told that there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream, which suggests the opposite.
Sorry for the late reply I’ve been very busy with school.
Please don’t strawman. I limited my discussion to areas of the dream the sylvari and pale tree have shown access to. That is why A Light in the Darkness is being discussed.
If the All is already in another area of the Dream, then showing the Pale Tree has broader access calls the OP scenario into question. But if access is limited, then insuring the Sylvari upload is much more important.
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
As for the rest of your reply:
The mechanism is important. For simplicity there are three ways to learn about the future.
1. Prescience: information from the future in the present; e.g precognition
2. Insight: non-causal actions or events that reveal information about the future; e.g divination
3. Forecasting: predictions about the future based on causal information; e.g meteorology
Based on discussions with the Pale Tree, A Light in the Darkness is forecasting. A model formed from spliced depictions of the past, present, and hopeful/fearful future.
Our prewaking dream is not edited snippets. It’s insight and prescience. A birthday reveals nothing without a horoscope. Similarly the scenes from the past do not hint at the future, their selective assembly creates the message.
Recognizing the effects of editing allows you to better understand the types of foresight and the proper way to judge symbolism. We never thought a tree was going to grow to cover part of the moon.
As for your other remark, replay A Light in the Darkness. It’s made quite clear that the majority of what you see is the knowledge/beliefs of Caithe and Trahearne. The rest is hopeful/fearful quasi prescience. Trahearne literally narrates most of the vision.
There is no indication the Pale Tree is accessing non-sylvari information.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
I feel like people may be overcomplicating things here. We know that the Pale Tree is essentially a Blightning Tree, and that Blightning Trees have the ability to absorb biomass and reproduce it somehow. We know that the Pale Tree was grown on graves, and that an entire community existed around it.
I don’t think it’s farfetched to think that things such as language and understanding of the surrounding world could have been drawn from Rhonan and the humans and centaurs who co-existed, lived and died near the tree.
I don’t think it’s farfetched to think that things such as language and understanding of the surrounding world could have been drawn from Rhonan and the humans and centaurs who co-existed, lived and died near the tree.
That was the common consensus before launch, but then we met Malyck. The challenge now is to explain how a sylvari born of a different tree, one with no indication of having a helpful community to draw from, also created a human-shaped creature and instilled it with language and basic skills.
I don’t think it’s farfetched to think that things such as language and understanding of the surrounding world could have been drawn from Rhonan and the humans and centaurs who co-existed, lived and died near the tree.
That was the common consensus before launch, but then we met Malyck. The challenge now is to explain how a sylvari born of a different tree, one with no indication of having a helpful community to draw from, also created a human-shaped creature and instilled it with language and basic skills.
While playable Sylvari are born as adults, that doesn’t mean that other blightning trees operate in the same manner.
I mean, based on how we’ve seen them operate under Mordremoth, a Blightning tree could be using a (humanoid) body and cloning it indefinately. For all we know, there could be several Malycks out there, all being cloned from some poor sucker who stumbled over a root and got eaten by a Blightning Tree.
Fern Hounds are also born from the Pale Tree, so there’s a precedens set for different outcomes from blightning trees.
On the first- that doesn’t actually solve the core issue (how would a baby Malyck learn language?), but it’s a moot point anyway, since we find his pod later. It comes to light at that point that the Malyck we met was two weeks old.
The trouble with the cloning argument, n the other hand, is that the Mordremoth clones seem to share memories. If it was just a template, used to get the idea of a human form, that a different matter entirely- but it puts us right back at the language problem.
The Mordremoth clones we encountered were created in an timeframe where Mordremoth had absorbed Zhaitan’s magic and abilities, though. Perhaps that changed the way the clones function, perhaps not.
It’s also possible that Malyck was indoctrinated through a dream-like function, but not aware of it.
I do agree that it’s a section of the mystery that I’d love to see more of.
Regarding Light in the Darkness:
I could pick up a few points, but there is one key point in Light in the Darkness, possibly the most important in the instance: the mention of the Source of Orr.
Trahearne, the world’s premier expert on all things Orr, didn’t know about the Source. In fact, based on Against the Corruption, he’s either forgotten or completely misinterpreted the mention of the Source until reminded by the PC.
If Trahearne didn’t know about the Source, then where did that information come from? There’s no indication that Caithe or any other sylvari knows about the Source either. That information didn’t come from any sylvari, it came direct from the Dream, or at least it entered the Dream through a non-sylvari source.
Therefore, it’s quite apparent that the Pale Tree is not limited to sylvari experiences… and this is just one case.
@Malice: That’s an interesting point. It’s well established that dragons know everything that those they corrupt knew, and Mordrem clones seem to retain the knowledge (and in Zojja’s case, even some of the will) of the original. Malyck’s ‘starting knowledge’ could have been the knowledge of the human he was copied from. He does say he was taught to fight by the Wardens, suggesting he didn’t start with all of the knowledge that typically comes from the Dream.
Please don’t strawman. I limited my discussion to areas of the dream the sylvari and pale tree have shown access to. That is why A Light in the Darkness is being discussed.
-Snip-
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
Considering that you said this earlier
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
Emphasis mine, you were talking about where the knowledge is obtained from.
Please don’t strawman. I limited my discussion to areas of the dream the sylvari and pale tree have shown access to. That is why A Light in the Darkness is being discussed.
-Snip-
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
Considering that you said this earlier
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
Emphasis mine, you were talking about where the knowledge is obtained from.
My Google Drive is a repository of accessible information. I can upload from my computer, or the Internet. And Google can do the same without my permission.
Here is a scenario:
How can I fix the situation?
Drax’s strawman is me believing I uploaded all content in Drives and on the Internet. It is simply not the case.
I want to hack into the professors drive but it isn’t the most reliable option. I fully agree I should work on my hacking skills, but is that the fastest method?
Like any good academic coach you ask me how I study and you gain information on what resources I have access to.
Let’s say I mention a shared folder for the students in the class where we upload everything the professor returns.
Do you tell me to keep trying to hack the professors Drive?
No.
You tell me to keep studying, and you add the uncorrected answer keys to the process. Hacking is when all other options are exhausted.
It’s possible the majority of test takers were wrong. But at least we have more information.
We don’t fully know what the Pale Tree has but we know she can access this emotional information of this type.
Everyone is sharing notes and she is hogging it all.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
@ Daniel Handler
Why are you quoting me telling you how you were wrong and then trying to counter Drax’s point? You don’t even counter Drax’s point, you’re simply rephrasing your argument to not tackle Drax’s counter-point. You also quote Drax’s point so poorly to the point that you’re actually not referring to a single part of his argument at all, which isn’t even a strawman at that point, it’s something else entirely.
In fact, this argument that you just posted doesn’t even match your previous arguments at all.
I’ve been reading and re-reading this thread over and over again to try and understand your point, and I don’t.
At some point in the thread, you’ve claimed that Sylvari gain information from their own future:
The information came from you in the future.
This is a snippet of the entire post, but I’m highlighting this point. Drax counters you by saying that just because the phrase “the Dream hints at my future” is there, it does NOT mean that it is future you providing information. This lead into an entire discussion on where the information could possibly come from. Then you turn around and say
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
Which is blatantly false, since an entire discussion surrounded the topic for several posts. You also have said the following multiple times.
There is no indication the Pale Tree is accessing non-sylvari information.
Which, considering the White Stag and the knowledge of the Source of Orr as Drax and Konig pointed out, proves your point false. This is an objective fact that cannot be disputed.
Now you’re saying some weird argument about Google Drive uploads and are refusing to even look at what Drax has ever said.
This whole topic started from your idea of placing sylvari into Omadd’s machine to get the entirety of the All into the Dream for future Sylvari to access, which considering Konig’s earlier point about how information is transferred to the Dream via some experiences and the apparent non-uploading of traumatic experiences, means it wouldn’t work even if every sylvari that will ever exist was placed into Omadd’s machine.
Thus, with all of that info about how it won’t work (and why it won’t work), what is your argument now?
That’s twice you’ve accused me of strawmanning. I’m honestly not sure how.
Strawman (definition): “an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.”
My understanding of your position is this: “The Pale Tree only has access to information through the Dream that only came from sylvari.”
In this formulation, your hypothesis is verifiable. If we find information that the Pale Tree has access to that was not known to any sylvari, then your hypothesis is disproven. Hence the example of A Light in the Darkness. While Trahearne does a lot of historical narration of stuff that was commonly known, there is clearly stuff in there that no sylvari knew – such as the existence and importance of the Source, as discussed in my previous post in this thread. A previous example given is the Pale Tree appearing to have an idea of what would happen to Ceara if she pushed past the Pale Tree’s blocks while using Omadd’s machine. My counterclaim is that the Pale Tree does have access to information that didn’t come from sylvari, through means that are presently unknown to us (this does not mean that she has access to everything, since we don’t know what rules the Dream might have and there may be limitations there, but they appear to be broader than just receiving information from sylvari).
Earlier in this thread, you made the counterclaim that while the Pale Tree can only receive information from sylvari, it can receive information backwards in time from sylvari in the future. This claim, if true, would render null the evidence presented in A Light In The Darkness, as everything in A Light In The Darkness that wasn’t known at the time could be coming from the future of Trahearne, sylvari Pact soldiers, and the PC themselves if sylvari. As a basis for this claim, you cited lines in the sylvari introduction that you believe support this interpretation.
I have provided my arguments as to why I don’t think that is the correct interpretation (certainly not the only possible interpretation) of those lines, which included the argument that the lines you claim are literally receiving information from the future could equally apply to what you refer to as ‘forecasting’ – using information from the past and present to predict the future.
(It’s worth noting here that, in the foreseeable future, we are unlikely to be able to perform any test that can distinguish ‘The Pale Tree can receive information from non-sylvari sources’ from ‘The Pale Tree can receive information from sylvari in the future’. Since the PC can be a sylvari, anything that the PC will ever know – and, therefore, anything we are likely to know as players for as long as sylvari remain playable – is then in the Pale Tree’s available pool of knowledge.)
If there is any misrepresentation of your position, please point it out.
That’s twice you’ve accused me of strawmanning. I’m honestly not sure how.
Strawman (definition): “an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.”
My understanding of your position is this: “The Pale Tree only has access to information through the Dream that only came from sylvari.”
[snip]
If there is any misrepresentation of your position, please point it out.
Nothing you have put forward provides evidence for your core claim: that the Dream exclusively receives information from sylvari. In fact, we’ve been explicitly told that there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream, which suggests the opposite.
There is a difference between the Pale Tree only having access to Sylvari Dream info, and the Dream exclusively receiving information from Sylvari.
This follows the definition of a strawman because A: it is misrepresentation, and B: it is very easy to disprove. I know what the White Stag is, and I believe there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream.
@Castle. There have been no contradictions. Perhaps I wrote poorly, or maybe you didn’t read properly. Your concept of objective fact and blatant lies perturbing at best.
But I think I can clear up your misunderstanding. This entire discussion is about the Sylvari, and the Pale Tree.We are discussing the section of the Dream the Sylvari upload to. And we are discussing the other sources of information available to the Pale Tree. There are other sections of the Dream. But they are not accessible on demand by the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. They may experience them, but that is at the will of the Dream, and not a reliable way to go about the OP scenario.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
There is a difference between the Pale Tree only having access to Sylvari Dream info, and the Dream exclusively receiving information from Sylvari.
But here’s a thing that disproves your idea. The knowledge of the source of Orr. No sylvari knew about it at the time. Thus the information that the Pale Tree gains from the Dream is not exclusive to sylvari sources because no sylvari knew about the source of Orr.
This follows the definition of a strawman because A: it is misrepresentation, and B: it is very easy to disprove. I know what the White Stag is, and I believe there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream.
You missed the keyword in the strawman definition. Intentional. Drax has clearly stated that’s how they interpreted your argument and said if there was any misrepresentation to please point it out. That is NOT the stance of someone intentionally strawmanning. That is the stance of someone attempting genuine discourse and simply misunderstanding, not intentionally misrepresenting.
I too misunderstood your argument as talking about where the Dream gets information from, so I know from personal experience that it wasn’t an intentionally malicious attempt to discredit you, it was a genuine misunderstanding.
@Castle. There have been no contradictions. Perhaps I wrote poorly, or maybe you didn’t read properly. Your concept of objective fact and blatant lies perturbing at best.
I directly quoted where there were contradictions and pointed out facts as they were presented. Here’s the primary contradiction as pointed out previously.
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
The information came from you in the future.
That is a contradiction, considering the second quote was from an earlier post. You WERE discussing where the information comes from, in fact this is YOU talking about where the information comes from in the second quote. Your first quote then says that nobody was discussing that information, which clearly YOU were. So yeah, that’s a contradiction.
As for the fact thing, well:
But I think I can clear up your misunderstanding. This entire discussion is about the Sylvari, and the Pale Tree.We are discussing the section of the Dream the Sylvari upload to. And we are discussing the other sources of information available to the Pale Tree. There are other sections of the Dream. But they are not accessible on demand by the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. They may experience them, but that is at the will of the Dream, and not a reliable way to go about the OP scenario.
Except the Pale Tree directly creates a portal into a section of the Dream that’s relevant to Trahearne and the commander, thus disproving your point. That section of the Dream that the Pale Tree provided a portal to ALSO gave information regarding the source of Orr, something that no one alive knew about, not just the sylvari. Thus, your point is, objectively, proven false. The Pale Tree may not have constant access to every section of the Dream, but if needed she can directly reach out to those parts.
So yeah, I’d say what’s worrying is that you think my knowledge of the words ‘objective facts’ and ‘blatant lies’ are flawed. Objectively, there was a contradiction in your posts. Objectively, you lied about there not being a contradiction. Objectively the Pale Tree can, if needed, create portals directly to relevant parts of the Dream. Objectively, the part of the Dream that the Pale Tree created a portal to had information that no sylvari had. Objectively speaking, your point has been disproven.
(edited by castlemanic.3198)
There is a difference between the Pale Tree only having access to Sylvari Dream info, and the Dream exclusively receiving information from Sylvari.
But here’s a thing that disproves your idea. The knowledge of the source of Orr. No sylvari knew about it at the time. Thus the information that the Pale Tree gains from the Dream is not exclusive to sylvari sources because no sylvari knew about the source of Orr.
This follows the definition of a strawman because A: it is misrepresentation, and B: it is very easy to disprove. I know what the White Stag is, and I believe there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream.
You missed the keyword in the strawman definition. Intentional. Drax has clearly stated that’s how they interpreted your argument and said if there was any misrepresentation to please point it out. That is NOT the stance of someone intentionally strawmanning. That is the stance of someone attempting genuine discourse and simply misunderstanding, not intentionally misrepresenting.
I too misunderstood your argument as talking about where the Dream gets information from, so I know from personal experience that it wasn’t an intentionally malicious attempt to discredit you, it was a genuine misunderstanding.
I can’t go back in time to withdraw the accusation, even if I recognize their stance in the present.Not only is this an online forum, we are also talking about things that don’t exist. We all should be in the habit of asking for clarity, myself included.
I believe in this instance the offender was the word “where”. It can refer to origin, but also to immediate location.
The discussion has also somewhat derailed, partially because of my desire to prove alternatives, and partly because of the nature of the lore itself.
I can constrain the Pale Tree’s limitations however I want but there will always be the will of the Dream.
It doesn’t matter whether ALITD is from the future or non sylvari because the Dream could always bestow whatever knowledge it pleased. Proving the Sylvari only section means nothing to the overall argument.
All we know is that the Pale Tree realized what Scarlet was doing. And from our current understanding, that means some sort of information regarding the All was communicated over the Dream.
I would assume that indicates the experience is traumatic enough for upload, but it could be the Dream just said “hey Pale Tree, Caera is looking at something bad.”
Moreover, even if it could be uploaded and synthesized like the OP scenario, perhaps it’s unnecessary because of some unknown lore (e.g the all is already present in the Dream or Pale Tree)
What I hope is that the lore concerning the Dream is explored further in the game. What knowledge does it hypothetically contain? How can we access that?
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
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