Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

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Posted by: Jermoe Morrow.9501

Jermoe Morrow.9501

I’m not asking if the human gods exist as omnipotent being’s that control all destiny, just asking if they exist as entities at all.

I had an argument with a guild member today and they were saying that the gods don’t exist, and are only “real” to humans. Which I thought strange because human racial skills are prayers that have very real results, and avatars of the human gods show up in the personal story. Also how pretty much every race besides Sylvari seems to accept the Gods as a part of their own world view (spirits of action for the Norn, parts of the eternal alchemy for the Asura, unnecessary for the char)

I know the rescent cutscene from using Omadd's machine seems to imply that the eternal alchemy is a valid was to view creation, but that does not discount that the existence of the beings the humans call gods. The eternal alchemy is not a god, but a way of looking at the world. I also wonder if the machine gives an accurate picture given the bias of its asuran creator towards the eternal alchemy

Did the devs do something I missed in game that made all that disappear, or am I right and the gods exist and the question is more what they actually are?

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(edited by Jermoe Morrow.9501)

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Posted by: narwhalsbend.7059

narwhalsbend.7059

At the very least they are somewhat physical beings. You fight two gods in GW1.

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Posted by: Jermoe Morrow.9501

Jermoe Morrow.9501

Although that technically happened in GW1, could the argument continue that it was all myth?

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Posted by: Vlad.1739

Vlad.1739

Short answers to your questions:
-Gods are real and reside in the Rift, a portion of the Mists. They are not omnipotent they do not decide fate.
-In guild wars 1 Kersh does research into human gods and concludes they are an important part of Eternal Alchemy.
-Real reason gods are not as important as in GW1 is because GW2 is not a human only playable race game. In game reason debated as they feel humans can stand on their own or gods have more important things to do/conflict with dragons would be bad for Tyria see lore of Abaddon. When godly beings fight they scar the land.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

no, they’re very much real. not even the other races doubt it. they exist, and they have left tangible marks around the world. hell, less than 1500 years ago they resided in orr. they (well, abaddon) made that whole mess with unleashing the magic from the bloodstones, then the crystal sea became a desert and the desolation because one of the gods was cast down there, and so on.

heck, as pointed out, we fought two of them in GW1, and witnessed someone ascending to godhood.

their existence and power is unquestioned. whether they should be worshipped or not is up to each race.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Lord Hammer Hand.4815

Lord Hammer Hand.4815

they are real ingame its not a myth.

Pacific Islander Legion [NoyP]
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Posted by: Mada.5319

Mada.5319

We actually fight two of them in GW1 so yes they are real.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

I think the reason that some Sylvari doubt they exist is that most of them have never seen any evidence of their power.

The Charr on the other hand, have plenty of proof of their power. But to the Charr they are just powerful immortal, and not benign, creatures.

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Posted by: Ronin.7381

Ronin.7381

Although that technically happened in GW1, could the argument continue that it was all myth?

At this point it’s plausible that skeptics would be growing by the dozens. But to answer the question itself, they had corporeal forms. And their powers were often exhibited via Favor of The Gods. Plus watching Komir ascend was kind of a big factor. That and Wintersday was a game of sorts between Dwayna and Grenth which brought snow into Lions Arch.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

Although that technically happened in GW1, could the argument continue that it was all myth?

At this point it’s plausible that skeptics would be growing by the dozens. But to answer the question itself, they had corporeal forms. And their powers were often exhibited via Favor of The Gods. Plus watching Komir ascend was kind of a big factor. That and Wintersday was a game of sorts between Dwayna and Grenth which brought snow into Lions Arch.

well technically no one has seen the gods since the exodus. we see their avatars though.

in fact, i might be wrong here, but isn’t malchor the only human to ever see the gods? and it blinded him or something? it’s too late for me to go fact checking, so feel free to point me in the right direction.

either way, they do exist and have physical forms. we just haven’t seen them in a looooong while.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

well technically no one has seen the gods since the exodus. we see their avatars though.

in fact, i might be wrong here, but isn’t malchor the only human to ever see the gods? and it blinded him or something? it’s too late for me to go fact checking, so feel free to point me in the right direction.

No, as said, the player character in guild wars 1 (as well as Devona and co presumably a.k.a. Destiny’s Edge predecessor) actually saw (and fought) two gods: Abaddon and Dhuum. Furthermore, as said, the player character (and again presumably Devona and co) saw the ascension of a new god: Kormir. This combined with all the indirect evidence of their existence (written, visible in the world, talked about by many of the races of the world) is pretty conclusive: they exist, or at least, they existed.

It is pretty much impossible to argue they have never existed, however one could argue that they are dead now. For characters living within the game world today there is no strong argument to be made in favor of this theory nor against this theory really. The only definitive source which talks about the gods is an out-of-game source (or is it? it has a header which implies it is a priory document but even then or especially then it would be 1. a fallible source and 2. possibly not widely known): The Movement of the World. The Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

The definition of an avatar is an incarnation of a being. If the reaper really is an avatar, then the god must actually exist.

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Posted by: Will Lucky.8703

Will Lucky.8703

Arguably the players did see the gods or at least their representatives during the Nightfall mission, Gate of Madness when Kormir seeks a audience with them to ask for help against Abaddon.

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

The definition of an avatar is an incarnation of a being. If the reaper really is an avatar, then the god must actually exist.

As a defintional remark, you are correct. However, how do we really know he is an avatar?

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

The definition of an avatar is an incarnation of a being. If the reaper really is an avatar, then the god must actually exist.

As a defintional remark, you are correct. However, how do we really know he is an avatar?

He looks like one. He acts like one. We’ve got told he is one. We don’t have more informations at most places.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

The definition of an avatar is an incarnation of a being. If the reaper really is an avatar, then the god must actually exist.

As a defintional remark, you are correct. However, how do we really know he is an avatar?

He looks like one. He acts like one. We’ve got told he is one. We don’t have more informations at most places.

Don’t get me wrong, I also belief that the gods are still very much alive but the evidence isn’t conclusive. Even more so for the average joe who doesn’t get to go to Orr or read through the Priory Library.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

We as players know for a fact that the gods exist. The sylvari generally aren’t sure because they’ve never had encounters with them and in one interview, the devs said belief among some humans is naturally waning due to lack of interaction. So there is reason for in-game mortals to doubt. but we as players know for sure they exist.

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Posted by: Ronin.7381

Ronin.7381

Arguably the players did see the gods or at least their representatives during the Nightfall mission, Gate of Madness when Kormir seeks a audience with them to ask for help against Abaddon.

Ah, and see there’s the trick. Common folk did not see these events. So through time it’s plausible, after the God’s exodus, that people in general simply grew away from believing 100% to being skeptical. It’s kind of like an old grandfather trying to tell you the course of events in MW2 or Vietnam, right? You weren’t there so all you have is their accounts to go off.

But again, we the players witness these events so we can say they were real. However, the characters we played as in GW1 are two and a half generations worth of dead.

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

However, the characters we played as in GW1 are two and a half generations worth of dead.

Usually a generation is defined as being something like 30 to 33 years. Furthermore, I doubt humans in tyria live as long as humans do in the modern developed world. I think it’s quite a bit more than two and a half generations Your point stands though.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

well technically no one has seen the gods since the exodus. we see their avatars though.

in fact, i might be wrong here, but isn’t malchor the only human to ever see the gods? and it blinded him or something? it’s too late for me to go fact checking, so feel free to point me in the right direction.

No, as said, the player character in guild wars 1 (as well as Devona and co presumably a.k.a. Destiny’s Edge predecessor) actually saw (and fought) two gods: Abaddon and Dhuum. Furthermore, as said, the player character (and again presumably Devona and co) saw the ascension of a new god: Kormir. This combined with all the indirect evidence of their existence (written, visible in the world, talked about by many of the races of the world) is pretty conclusive: they exist, or at least, they existed.

It is pretty much impossible to argue they have never existed, however one could argue that they are dead now. For characters living within the game world today there is no strong argument to be made in favor of this theory nor against this theory really. The only definitive source which talks about the gods is an out-of-game source (or is it? it has a header which implies it is a priory document but even then or especially then it would be 1. a fallible source and 2. possibly not widely known): The Movement of the World. The Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

i was actually referring to balthazar and company. i am very much aware we fought abaddon and witnessed kormir’s ascension, that fight was a pain in the kitten .

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: SpeedFiend.4521

SpeedFiend.4521

While the human gods as we know them may or may not still exist, their power is eternal and indestructible. If one of them was, say, killed in combat, and nobody took up his mantle, we’d all be dead as it would rip reality to shreds.

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Posted by: Jermoe Morrow.9501

Jermoe Morrow.9501

Thank you everyone for mostly restoring my faith in the human gods.

Just one piece of evidence regarding avatars that nobody mentioned is you can be turned into one via an Idol of Balthazar in the Priory storyline “the ghost rite” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Balthazar also in a charr storyline. In the Priory version, Gixx while disregarding belief in the Gods when directly asked otherwise seems to talk about the god as if real.

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

Although that technically happened in GW1, could the argument continue that it was all myth?

Possible, and it would be an interesting twist. However we have no evidence supporting this so at the moment the assumption is that GW1 was real-lore-wise.

We actually fight two of them in GW1 so yes they are real.

Abaddon and Dhuum right? Although I think Dhuum’s godliness as a slight question around it.

Reaper of Grenth at the end of the personal story is again just an avatar and could of course be wrong/lying.

The definition of an avatar is an incarnation of a being. If the reaper really is an avatar, then the god must actually exist.

As a defintional remark, you are correct. However, how do we really know he is an avatar?

He looks like one. He acts like one. We’ve got told he is one. We don’t have more informations at most places.

It’s all a clever ruse you see, the reapers got together and decided that being an avatar would so like increase their street cred.

While the human gods as we know them may or may not still exist, their power is eternal and indestructible. If one of them was, say, killed in combat, and nobody took up his mantle, we’d all be dead as it would rip reality to shreds.

But what if they die somewhere distant in the mists? I think the example you’re referring to is Abaddon and I think he was already sort of in Tyria when he died.

Thank you everyone for mostly restoring my faith in the human gods.

Just one piece of evidence regarding avatars that nobody mentioned is you can be turned into one via an Idol of Balthazar in the Priory storyline “the ghost rite” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Balthazar also in a charr storyline. In the Priory version, Gixx while disregarding belief in the Gods when directly asked otherwise seems to talk about the god as if real.

The gods as god is in question, not whether they exist. The Asura don’t believe in gods but their understanding of the eternal alchemy does allow for extremely powerful entities to exist. The Charr with their history (the Titans) also believe that powerful entities exist, but they don’t think of them as gods either (in fact I’m pretty sure they think they could probably kill a ‘god’ if need be). Norn had their spirits and the Sylvari have the Pale Tree.

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Posted by: Iason Evan.3806

Iason Evan.3806

My GW1 characters watched Kormir ascend into god hood. I have talked to the avatars of the gods. you can’t have an avatar of a god if that god doesn’t exist. they are real.

Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Arghore.8340

Arghore.8340

I think the right way of looking at the Gods is that they WERE real… history states that they left this world. And based upon the lore of The underworld, and The Realm of Balthazar (that could be accessed through the statues in the temple of ages), it is implied that they left to a realm of their own… While I am not entirely sure, I do think that we could at least encounter Grenth and Dhuum in some missions, and obviously we encountered Abaddon (again in a separate realm).

We do not know what happened to them there, are these realms similar to what the orbs represent? If the whole vision was to be taken as a real true thing, then surely the breakdown that could be seen in it, would also be true. Which could mean that when time shifted, the planes also shifted (to another breakdown) and with it the gods and their realms would just disappear to form another…

We do not know what avatars realy are, most of them though look like ‘ghosts’. With the ‘Ghosts are magical constructs’ aka. ghosts are nothing more than a magical hologram that can interact with the physical world. Then we might need to assume that avatars are of a similar make. Aka. they are a location bound spell or an hidden artefact that upon activation shows an avatar.

Now we know that the amount of avatars has been reduced over the last 1300y and even more so over the last 250y. There has been no interaction with the Gods either. So, that sort of implies that indeed these were spells or artefacts, some spells may have just dissolved as the Realms/Domains shifted from a setting that the Gods used, into a setting that allowed for the Dragons to awaken. Artefacts that are meant to support Avatars might have still functioned, at least for as long as there was magic available to replenish them after use.

With ley lines being able to shift locations, and be diverted like rivers, these artefacts in these location may not have enough refill to construct the avatar, which could have actually been experienced by the humans, as avatars were to show themselves less and less, and with greater and greater intervals, to a point where people no longer bothered to even go and look. This might also explain why in some areas (mainly to support the human personal story) there are still active avatars…

So, whats the deal now? are they real? Well they were real, just as much as the Dragons of today are real. But similar to how anyone on Tyria, roughly 700y ago would have considered Dwarfen texts mentioning Elder Dragons to be some sort of ‘Myth’. Any mentions ‘now’ of the Gods, (Who haven’t been seen since 1200y, and their avatars less and less since 250y.) will be considered as a Myth as well…

Those minor deities of us that ‘by now’ have been alive ‘in spirit’ for roughly 300y will know better though, the gods were real … but explaining that to someone that is just coming on the block, is like explaining ‘walk-mans’ were real to a kid born a few years ago…

We are peace, we are war. We are how we treat each other and nothing more…
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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

The gods as god is in question, not whether they exist. The Asura don’t believe in gods but their understanding of the eternal alchemy does allow for extremely powerful entities to exist. The Charr with their history (the Titans) also believe that powerful entities exist, but they don’t think of them as gods either (in fact I’m pretty sure they think they could probably kill a ‘god’ if need be). Norn had their spirits and the Sylvari have the Pale Tree.

I don’t think the gods ‘godhood’ is really in question by anybody who believes they exist (except the norn who belive they are Spirits of the Wild for a higher concept than an animal) . The asura view gods as major cogs in the Eternal Alchemy. The charr believe that they are gods. They just don’t think they are worthy of worship. None of the gods is omnipotent but that doesn’t negate their godhood because any pantheon that contains more than one god automatically means that none of those gods can be omnipotent.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

The gods as god is in question, not whether they exist. The Asura don’t believe in gods but their understanding of the eternal alchemy does allow for extremely powerful entities to exist. The Charr with their history (the Titans) also believe that powerful entities exist, but they don’t think of them as gods either (in fact I’m pretty sure they think they could probably kill a ‘god’ if need be). Norn had their spirits and the Sylvari have the Pale Tree.

I don’t think the gods ‘godhood’ is really in question by anybody who believes they exist (except the norn who belive they are Spirits of the Wild for a higher concept than an animal) . The asura view gods as major cogs in the Eternal Alchemy. The charr believe that they are gods. They just don’t think they are worthy of worship. None of the gods is omnipotent but that doesn’t negate their godhood because any pantheon that contains more than one god automatically means that none of those gods can be omnipotent.

i don’t think that’s entirely accurate.

other races recognize them as beings, but they’re quick to make sure to call them “human gods”, as in “the beings humans consider gods”. they’re far more accepting of human gods than of any gods the grawl muster, for example, but assigning the role of god implies worship.

the six are gods to humankind, but to the other races they’re just extremely powerful entities.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Ronin.7381

Ronin.7381

But what if they die somewhere distant in the mists? I think the example you’re referring to is Abaddon and I think he was already sort of in Tyria when he died.

He was in the Realm of Torment. When he struck back at the gods, they ganged up on him and defeated him (they did not kill him) and then bound him to the Realm of Torment as his prison.

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Posted by: onemantankwall.3641

onemantankwall.3641

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

i don’t think that’s entirely accurate.

other races recognize them as beings, but they’re quick to make sure to call them “human gods”, as in “the beings humans consider gods”. they’re far more accepting of human gods than of any gods the grawl muster, for example, but assigning the role of god implies worship.

the six are gods to humankind, but to the other races they’re just extremely powerful entities.

Assigning the role of gods doesn’t need worship. E.G.- RL societies fought each other in the name of their own gods. And they thought their gods were more powerful than their enemies. Winning battles was considered evidence of a gods power. So they believed in other gods, they just didn’t worship them.

But if we look at the actual definition of a god as part of a panthreon, it doesn’t need to be worshipped. it just needs to be the supreme being of a particular concept or aspect:

( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.

( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god?s=t

the only reason I gave the norn some wiggle room is because they say the gods are an embodiment of a force like death for example, while humanity says that death exists because of a god. But by the definition of a god, they are still gods. But even the SotW would be gods. A god doesn’t need to be worshipped or any god that stops getting worshipped would stop being a god and anything that was worshipped would become a god. (As you said, the grawl worship anything). Gods simply tend to be worshipped because they generally give out power when they are. We as forum posters like to try to set out own definitions but what are we really basing them of off? What is the difference between a god and a powerful being of a concept of the world?

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

i don’t think that’s entirely accurate.

other races recognize them as beings, but they’re quick to make sure to call them “human gods”, as in “the beings humans consider gods”. they’re far more accepting of human gods than of any gods the grawl muster, for example, but assigning the role of god implies worship.

the six are gods to humankind, but to the other races they’re just extremely powerful entities.

Assigning the role of gods doesn’t need worship. E.G.- RL societies fought each other in the name of their own gods. And they thought their gods were more powerful than their enemies. Winning battles was considered evidence of a gods power. So they believed in other gods, they just didn’t worship them.

But if we look at the actual definition of a god as part of a panthreon, it doesn’t need to be worshipped. it just needs to be the supreme being of a particular concept or aspect:

( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.

( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god?s=t

the only reason I gave the norn some wiggle room is because they say the gods are an embodiment of a force like death for example, while humanity says that death exists because of a god. But by the definition of a god, they are still gods. But even the SotW would be gods. A god doesn’t need to be worshipped or any god that stops getting worshipped would stop being a god and anything that was worshipped would become a god. (As you said, the grawl worship anything). Gods simply tend to be worshipped because they generally give out power when they are. We as forum posters like to try to set out own definitions but what are we really basing them of off? What is the difference between a god and a powerful being of a concept of the world?

those societies in history also tend to label the other gods in an exclusive manner, to imply they have no relation to them, and that’s not even counting when they call them “false gods”.

the word “god” just carries too much weight for other races to be accepting of them as “gods”. heck, “there are no gods” is kind of a charr motto. other races accept the gods as existing, but not as “gods”.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

those societies in history also tend to label the other gods in an exclusive manner, to imply they have no relation to them, and that’s not even counting when they call them “false gods”.

the word “god” just carries too much weight for other races to be accepting of them as “gods”. heck, “there are no gods” is kind of a charr motto. other races accept the gods as existing, but not as “gods”.

That’s not really true. For instance, if they lose a battle that took place in the hills, they attribute the loss to the idea that the god must be a god of the hills so they would try to fight the next battle in a place that isn’t hills. There hasn’t always been an “I’m right and your wrong” attitude about worship. Periodicaloly, there has been an attitude that there are plenty of gods but some benefit more than others. Even Rome had an alter to the unknown gods. Those that weren’t worshipped but must surely have existed as far as they knew. Because there was already so many that did exist.

I haven’t heard the charr say that there is no gods. The other races may not worship the six but beyond the norn, I haven’t seen any general dialog of any playable society talk about how the six aren’t really gods. They just aren’t worthy of worship according to the races like charr and asura. I’m curious, what your definition of god is that negates the six from being gods.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

those societies in history also tend to label the other gods in an exclusive manner, to imply they have no relation to them, and that’s not even counting when they call them “false gods”.

the word “god” just carries too much weight for other races to be accepting of them as “gods”. heck, “there are no gods” is kind of a charr motto. other races accept the gods as existing, but not as “gods”.

That’s not really true. For instance, if they lose a battle that took place in the hills, they attribute the loss to the idea that the god must be a god of the hills so they would try to fight the next battle in a place that isn’t hills. There hasn’t always been an “I’m right and your wrong” attitude about worship. Periodicaloly, there has been an attitude that there are plenty of gods but some benefit more than others. Even Rome had an alter to the unknown gods. Those that weren’t worshipped but must surely have existed as far as they knew. Because there was already so many that did exist.

I haven’t heard the charr say that there is no gods. The other races may not worship the six but beyond the norn, I haven’t seen any general dialog of any playable society talk about how the six aren’t really gods. They just aren’t worthy of worship according to the races like charr and asura. I’m curious, what your definition of god is that negates the six from being gods.

i’m using god as a perspective. see, to the humans, the six are gods, but not to the other races.

similarly, a grawl might worship an oversized imp/ice elemental and call it their god, but we dismiss it as grawl being stupid and then kill their “god”, because we know it’s not really a god.

charr as a society would not accept gods, human or not, due to their past. they see the humans clinging to their gods as a sign of human weakness, and would probably challenge the six to a fight should the opportunity come.

in other words, these entities we call the six are only deemed gods to the humans.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

(edited by BrunoBRS.5178)

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Posted by: Windu The Forbidden One.6045

Windu The Forbidden One.6045

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

those societies in history also tend to label the other gods in an exclusive manner, to imply they have no relation to them, and that’s not even counting when they call them “false gods”.

the word “god” just carries too much weight for other races to be accepting of them as “gods”. heck, “there are no gods” is kind of a charr motto. other races accept the gods as existing, but not as “gods”.

That’s not really true. For instance, if they lose a battle that took place in the hills, they attribute the loss to the idea that the god must be a god of the hills so they would try to fight the next battle in a place that isn’t hills. There hasn’t always been an “I’m right and your wrong” attitude about worship. Periodicaloly, there has been an attitude that there are plenty of gods but some benefit more than others. Even Rome had an alter to the unknown gods. Those that weren’t worshipped but must surely have existed as far as they knew. Because there was already so many that did exist.

I haven’t heard the charr say that there is no gods. The other races may not worship the six but beyond the norn, I haven’t seen any general dialog of any playable society talk about how the six aren’t really gods. They just aren’t worthy of worship according to the races like charr and asura. I’m curious, what your definition of god is that negates the six from being gods.

i’m using god as a perspective. see, to the humans, the six are gods, but not to the other races.

similarly, a grawl might worship an oversized imp/ice elemental and call it their god, but we dismiss it as grawl being stupid and then kill their “god”, because we know it’s not really a god.

charr as a society would not accept gods, human or not, due to their past. they see the humans clinging to their gods as a sign of human weakness, and would probably challenge the six to a fight should the opportunity come.

in other words, these entities we call the six are only deemed gods to the humans.

if I understand you correctly, a god is only a god as long as you revere it? That means ‘godhood’ is a purely relative position. But we know the gods are gods reguardless of opinions about them. So how could the charr deny the sixes godhood? It seems that godhood means more to you than it actually does. A dog is a dog whether anyone chooses to pet them and a god is a god whether anyone choses to worship them. it’s not a relative thing.

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Posted by: Rukh.9287

Rukh.9287

Not quite the same. A dog is a species. It’s a label of a physical collection of characteristics. A god is not a species, it’s a rather nebulous label for very powerful beings. The definition is not concrete. Sometimes things that are extremely powerful are called god. Sometimes things that are worshipped. Both the humans and the Char mean it in the second way. The Asura generally mean it in the first.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

those societies in history also tend to label the other gods in an exclusive manner, to imply they have no relation to them, and that’s not even counting when they call them “false gods”.

the word “god” just carries too much weight for other races to be accepting of them as “gods”. heck, “there are no gods” is kind of a charr motto. other races accept the gods as existing, but not as “gods”.

That’s not really true. For instance, if they lose a battle that took place in the hills, they attribute the loss to the idea that the god must be a god of the hills so they would try to fight the next battle in a place that isn’t hills. There hasn’t always been an “I’m right and your wrong” attitude about worship. Periodicaloly, there has been an attitude that there are plenty of gods but some benefit more than others. Even Rome had an alter to the unknown gods. Those that weren’t worshipped but must surely have existed as far as they knew. Because there was already so many that did exist.

I haven’t heard the charr say that there is no gods. The other races may not worship the six but beyond the norn, I haven’t seen any general dialog of any playable society talk about how the six aren’t really gods. They just aren’t worthy of worship according to the races like charr and asura. I’m curious, what your definition of god is that negates the six from being gods.

i’m using god as a perspective. see, to the humans, the six are gods, but not to the other races.

similarly, a grawl might worship an oversized imp/ice elemental and call it their god, but we dismiss it as grawl being stupid and then kill their “god”, because we know it’s not really a god.

charr as a society would not accept gods, human or not, due to their past. they see the humans clinging to their gods as a sign of human weakness, and would probably challenge the six to a fight should the opportunity come.

in other words, these entities we call the six are only deemed gods to the humans.

if I understand you correctly, a god is only a god as long as you revere it? That means ‘godhood’ is a purely relative position. But we know the gods are gods reguardless of opinions about them. So how could the charr deny the sixes godhood? It seems that godhood means more to you than it actually does. A dog is a dog whether anyone chooses to pet them and a god is a god whether anyone choses to worship them. it’s not a relative thing.

yes, that’s where i’m getting at. godhood is relative.

we have a half-whatever-gods-are, half-human god, we have a god that ascended from her mortal coil after killing another god, and we have gods with half brothers. gods have been de-godded (neologism ho!) but in title only, and so on.

godhood seems to be a purely relative thing in tyria. no one denies the six’s strength, but only humans deem them gods. that’s why they’re the six human gods, and not just the six gods.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Not quite the same. A dog is a species. It’s a label of a physical collection of characteristics. A god is not a species, it’s a rather nebulous label for very powerful beings. The definition is not concrete. Sometimes things that are extremely powerful are called god. Sometimes things that are worshipped. Both the humans and the Char mean it in the second way. The Asura generally mean it in the first.

“god” isn’t nebulous. It has a definition and there seems to be a difference between “powerful beings” and actual gods. otherwise the titans would have been actual gods rather than false gods.

yes, that’s where i’m getting at. godhood is relative.

we have a half-whatever-gods-are, half-human god, we have a god that ascended from her mortal coil after killing another god, and we have gods with half brothers. gods have been de-godded (neologism ho!) but in title only, and so on.

godhood seems to be a purely relative thing in tyria. no one denies the six’s strength, but only humans deem them gods. that’s why they’re the six human gods, and not just the six gods.

The existence of the titans disagrees with godhood being relative. We know that the six are gods and that the titans were not. Even though the titans were undeniably powerful beings. What is your definition of god again?

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Posted by: Rukh.9287

Rukh.9287

No it actually is fairly nebulous, as different people mean different things. And I’m sorry but you just saying “nuh huh!” doesn’t change that.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

yes, that’s where i’m getting at. godhood is relative.

we have a half-whatever-gods-are, half-human god, we have a god that ascended from her mortal coil after killing another god, and we have gods with half brothers. gods have been de-godded (neologism ho!) but in title only, and so on.

godhood seems to be a purely relative thing in tyria. no one denies the six’s strength, but only humans deem them gods. that’s why they’re the six human gods, and not just the six gods.

The existence of the titans disagrees with godhood being relative. We know that the six are gods and that the titans were not. Even though the titans were undeniably powerful beings. What is your definition of god again?

the titans were gods to the charr, we as humans deemed these charr gods (notice the similar terminology?) false, killed them, and said that our gods are the true gods. because of course we’d say that, we are humans.

my definition is that gods is a title assigned by a culture to a powerful being they worship. this is especially prevalent in tyria, where many races throughout time worshipped gods, then stopped worshipping them, or worshipped gods that other races didn’t consider gods. that, on top of what i mentioned before, half gods being gods, former-gods that are former-gods just in name, and humans becoming gods by absorbing the power of another.

seriously, how is grenth a god if he’s only half whatever-the-six-are? he “took down dhuum”, who remained just as strong while stuck in the underworld. abaddon was cast down and imprisoned on his own realm, but he was still a god, just one blacklisted from history.

the only thing that makes kormir a god is her “power level”, because she was human until abaddon died.

lyssa is actually two different people, how does that even work?

i could go on listing stuff, but the point is, “god” is not a race.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

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Posted by: Morsus.5106

Morsus.5106

To the ants in my backyard, I could be a “god”. I rain destruction when I spray them with ant killer, but when I drop some food into the grass (by accident) I’m benevolent and sparing them from starvation. Does that make me a “god”? Maybe to the ants, but only to them. If the ants decided to ask me for food, or protection from the other ant colony and I oblige, they may proceed to worship me. All hail Morsus, he gave us enough food for years! All hail Morsus, he destroyed the fire ant mound!

That’s kind of how I see the Krytan gods. Are they really gods? Maybe. They are, however, physical beings that can be found and identified and also have immense power. They protected humans from the Charr (Spraying the ants with ant killer) and so we think of them as gods.

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Posted by: Ronin.7381

Ronin.7381

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

This is a misconception by the player. We, the player and the band of heroes we work with (Devona, Stephan, Koss, Dunkero, etc) maybe represent 0.9 of the worlds population. The world itself never got to see Abaddon like we did. So its all a myth in everyone else’s eyes, a legend to inspire the young and so that they can pass it down to their children.

Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

This is a misconception by the player. We, the player and the band of heroes we work with (Devona, Stephan, Koss, Dunkero, etc) maybe represent 0.9 of the worlds population. The world itself never got to see Abaddon like we did. So its all a myth in everyone else’s eyes, a legend to inspire the young and so that they can pass it down to their children.

half of elona got to deal with evil tendrils and nightfall beasts killing everyone, as well as the return of the margonites.

and palawa joko was brought back so he could help the heroes of legend defeat abaddon, and joko is, well…

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

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Posted by: Ronin.7381

Ronin.7381

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

This is a misconception by the player. We, the player and the band of heroes we work with (Devona, Stephan, Koss, Dunkero, etc) maybe represent 0.9 of the worlds population. The world itself never got to see Abaddon like we did. So its all a myth in everyone else’s eyes, a legend to inspire the young and so that they can pass it down to their children.

half of elona got to deal with evil tendrils and nightfall beasts killing everyone, as well as the return of the margonites.

and palawa joko was brought back so he could help the heroes of legend defeat abaddon, and joko is, well…

And the Titans broke through the Door of Komalie, spreading out throughout Tyria. Catastrophes did happen. Just nobody saw a god walking among it all.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

No it actually is fairly nebulous, as different people mean different things. And I’m sorry but you just saying “nuh huh!” doesn’t change that.

Um…. dido /shrug

the titans were gods to the charr, we as humans deemed these charr gods (notice the similar terminology?) false, killed them, and said that our gods are the true gods. because of course we’d say that, we are humans.

my definition is that gods is a title assigned by a culture to a powerful being they worship. this is especially prevalent in tyria, where many races throughout time worshipped gods, then stopped worshipping them, or worshipped gods that other races didn’t consider gods. that, on top of what i mentioned before, half gods being gods, former-gods that are former-gods just in name, and humans becoming gods by absorbing the power of another.

seriously, how is grenth a god if he’s only half whatever-the-six-are? he “took down dhuum”, who remained just as strong while stuck in the underworld. abaddon was cast down and imprisoned on his own realm, but he was still a god, just one blacklisted from history.

the only thing that makes kormir a god is her “power level”, because she was human until abaddon died.

lyssa is actually two different people, how does that even work?

i could go on listing stuff, but the point is, “god” is not a race.

We have dev confirmation that the gods are gods and the titans actually aren’t. It’s not nebulous. Your mother isn’t my mother but she is a mother whther I call her mom or not. The devs refer to the gods as gods. It’s not a matter of being a god to one culture and not to another.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

This is a misconception by the player. We, the player and the band of heroes we work with (Devona, Stephan, Koss, Dunkero, etc) maybe represent 0.9 of the worlds population. The world itself never got to see Abaddon like we did. So its all a myth in everyone else’s eyes, a legend to inspire the young and so that they can pass it down to their children.

half of elona got to deal with evil tendrils and nightfall beasts killing everyone, as well as the return of the margonites.

and palawa joko was brought back so he could help the heroes of legend defeat abaddon, and joko is, well…

And the Titans broke through the Door of Komalie, spreading out throughout Tyria. Catastrophes did happen. Just nobody saw a god walking among it all.

that’s not my point. my point is that it’s very clear to tyrian society that the gods exist, even if a good chunk of them hasn’t seen it.

i don’t have to personally see every little thing in the world to know it happens/exists.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

But what if they die somewhere distant in the mists? I think the example you’re referring to is Abaddon and I think he was already sort of in Tyria when he died.

He was in the Realm of Torment. When he struck back at the gods, they ganged up on him and defeated him (they did not kill him) and then bound him to the Realm of Torment as his prison.

From my understanding Nightfall caused an overlap between the Realm of Torment and Tyria, and through this overlap Abaddon was able to kinda slip out of the Realm of Torment and into the quasi-Tyria. When you encounter him it’s when he’s basically half way into Tyria and half way into the Realm of Torment. Although I might be wrong, I finally got around to buying the original GW but I’m not nearly that far along so my understanding primarily comes from the wiki.

if I understand you correctly, a god is only a god as long as you revere it? That means ‘godhood’ is a purely relative position. But we know the gods are gods reguardless of opinions about them. So how could the charr deny the sixes godhood? It seems that godhood means more to you than it actually does.

Godhood is inherently more than a magic-power-level-reading. If we go by the definition of godhood as simply being very powerful then the Elder Dragons are also gods.

A dog is a dog whether anyone chooses to pet them and a god is a god whether anyone choses to worship them. it’s not a relative thing.

Oh you positivist. I’m an interpretivism myself, so my particular epistemological and ontological stances causes me to inherently view the world as being constructed from social-object and meaning to be attributed through human perception. So no a dog is not always a dog :P

The existence of the titans disagrees with godhood being relative. We know that the six are gods and that the titans were not. Even though the titans were undeniably powerful beings. What is your definition of god again?

What I’m getting at, godhood as a measure of power isn’t sufficient. Godhood inherently requires something that is spiritually meaningful, also a touch of the omnipotence doesn’t hurt (as we see with human they clearly still perceive the gods as being a role in their lives, not overtly but that they’re still here subtly influencing things).

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Godhood is inherently more than a magic-power-level-reading. If we go by the definition of godhood as simply being very powerful then the Elder Dragons are also gods.

Absolutely. The titans would also be gods if it was simply a matter of being powerful beings. And if there is actual gods like the devs say there is then godhood is an actual thing beyond someones opinion.

Oh you positivist. I’m an interpretivism myself, so my particular epistemological and ontological stances causes me to inherently view the world as being constructed from social-object and meaning to be attributed through human perception. So no a dog is not always a dog :P

It’s a good thing the devs have chosen to establish lore beyond individual in-game opinion and philosophy. Otherwise there would be no definitions for anything.

What I’m getting at, godhood as a measure of power isn’t sufficient. Godhood inherently requires something that is spiritually meaningful, also a touch of the omnipotence doesn’t hurt (as we see with human they clearly still perceive the gods as being a role in their lives, not overtly but that they’re still here subtly influencing things).

Any pantheon that has more than one god means that no god can be omnipotent. So that isn’t a requirement. The humans see the role in their lives. The asura try to understand and define that role in individual life and the greater universe. Either way, worship isn’t required from either race for the god to be gods.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: Ronin.7381

Ronin.7381

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

This is a misconception by the player. We, the player and the band of heroes we work with (Devona, Stephan, Koss, Dunkero, etc) maybe represent 0.9 of the worlds population. The world itself never got to see Abaddon like we did. So its all a myth in everyone else’s eyes, a legend to inspire the young and so that they can pass it down to their children.

half of elona got to deal with evil tendrils and nightfall beasts killing everyone, as well as the return of the margonites.

and palawa joko was brought back so he could help the heroes of legend defeat abaddon, and joko is, well…

And the Titans broke through the Door of Komalie, spreading out throughout Tyria. Catastrophes did happen. Just nobody saw a god walking among it all.

that’s not my point. my point is that it’s very clear to tyrian society that the gods exist, even if a good chunk of them hasn’t seen it.

i don’t have to personally see every little thing in the world to know it happens/exists.

That is my point, however. That through years as the events have passed down from father to child, the legitimacy of the claim would slowly fall out of favor. Truths would turn to mythos. Add 250+ years on top of that, and it boils down to a game of telephone.

Human Gods: Real or complete myth?

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

Yes because we’ve actually seen them in GW1 nightfall. We even killed one.

This is a misconception by the player. We, the player and the band of heroes we work with (Devona, Stephan, Koss, Dunkero, etc) maybe represent 0.9 of the worlds population. The world itself never got to see Abaddon like we did. So its all a myth in everyone else’s eyes, a legend to inspire the young and so that they can pass it down to their children.

half of elona got to deal with evil tendrils and nightfall beasts killing everyone, as well as the return of the margonites.

and palawa joko was brought back so he could help the heroes of legend defeat abaddon, and joko is, well…

And the Titans broke through the Door of Komalie, spreading out throughout Tyria. Catastrophes did happen. Just nobody saw a god walking among it all.

that’s not my point. my point is that it’s very clear to tyrian society that the gods exist, even if a good chunk of them hasn’t seen it.

i don’t have to personally see every little thing in the world to know it happens/exists.

That is my point, however. That through years as the events have passed down from father to child, the legitimacy of the claim would slowly fall out of favor. Truths would turn to mythos. Add 250+ years on top of that, and it boils down to a game of telephone.

there are historical records of the gods though. not just tomes and tomes of things written about them by multiple races, but global events that are a direct result from these gods. then you have orr.

the only people skeptical of the gods are the sylvari, because they’ve been around for 25 years. and 250 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things, especially in an universe like tyria, where advanced societies on par with the current ones existed as far as 10.000 years ago, with some of those races being present as recent as 250 years back. it’s not like the gods are a tale from time immemorial, they were interfering with entire continents less than 3 centuries ago. that’s the kind of event that doesn’t “boil down to a game of telephone”.

i’m not making assumptions here. it’s stated that no one doubts the existence of the six. their worth as gods, however, is an entirely different story.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell