Guild Wars 2

I don’t think ending the curse is admitting that magic is better than cold steel. The curse can only be ended by the shattering of Sohothin, a magic sword. It would seem more like he’s destroying the magic thkittening it, at least IMO.

Vexander.9850:

Ronin.7381:

Vexander.9850:

I just find Rytlock even -trying- to end the curse at this point to be incredibly detrimental to the Charr Race’s history and story. It’s practically admitting defeat. “We can’t do this our way. We’ll do it the Human and Flame Legion Way.”

I’d argue the treaty between humans and charr did the same thing. Removing this curse by any means necessary, be it through Charr or Human standards wouldn’t save their old traditions. But change does happen and it affects every one involved.

The Treaty with the humans is hardly admitting defeat. Indeed, since it was Jennah, I believe, who initiated the treaty in the first place, it’s more like the Charr achieved victory. Just seems to me that this is not the way for the Charr to end the Curse of Ascalon. It spits on 250 years.

The past 250 years hasn’t been “the way of the charr”. They watched champions defeat their false gods and in doing so turned to their shamans, those who were in charge of leading them to victory after victory following the Searing, and cast them out. The FoeFire itself spat at them because of the Flame Legions resilience and it got many of them killed in addition to it.

This is hardly a game-changer this late into said game.

Morsus.5106:

I don’t think ending the curse is admitting that magic is better than cold steel. The curse can only be ended by the shattering of Sohothin, a magic sword. It would seem more like he’s destroying the magic thkittening it, at least IMO.

It comes down to pride. The FoeFire robbed them of what they believe is their birthright. When pride is at the helm, you do anything to justify your “rightful claim”. Honestly it’s poetic justice, Adelbern wanted his people to fight the Charr forever and here comes a Charr beating him at even that. Removing the curse as a Charr is not just a staple but an insult to everything Adelbern fought for.

Vexander.9850:

I just find Rytlock even -trying- to end the curse at this point to be incredibly detrimental to the Charr Race’s history and story. It’s practically admitting defeat. “We can’t do this our way. We’ll do it the Human and Flame Legion Way.”

I am not sure if you are serious.

So far the game has spat onto almost every “human” effort (every effort made by GW1 players) and the Charr’s history is one of warfare, genocide, ecocide and inhuman acts. That’s really a history to be proud of [sarcasm].

I do agree with you that the lifting of the curse, if it succeeds, should not be done that way, but that’s about the only thing where i can agree.

A Charr lifting a human curse is anything but Charr “admitting defeat” but more the opposite. The Charr should not be the ones to lift the curse – it’s a human responsibility.

The lifting of the curse could have been a great storyline on its own, but it looks like it’s casually thrown into a completely different storyline, with a connection that feels forced. First season of the Living World we had Scarlet and her “magic” as explanation for everything, now it’s leylines. ANet is once more wasting the potential of unsolved old storylines as it seems.

Frosch.7809:

A Charr lifting a human curse is anything but Charr “admitting defeat” but more the opposite. The Charr should not be the ones to lift the curse – it’s a human responsibility.

For me, that’s what I love about it. I think that’s exactly the point. It’s believed to be a “human responsibility”, a charr is practically spitting on that prophecy in attempting to do so in fulfilling it. Were I Adelbern just before that moment, where my soul is about to be forcefully ripped from my land and thrown into the mists and Grenth’s sphere of influence, I’d be kittened knowing my efforts were undone by an enemy that I absolutely hated.

Ronin.7381:

Frosch.7809:

A Charr lifting a human curse is anything but Charr “admitting defeat” but more the opposite. The Charr should not be the ones to lift the curse – it’s a human responsibility.

For me, that’s what I love about it. I think that’s exactly the point. It’s believed to be a “human responsibility”, a charr is practically spitting on that prophecy in attempting to do so.

And in the process it denounces 250 years of growing culture and society for the charr, and further dilutes the little lore humans have left from the original game. Why do that when both races can have their lore and stories in-tact?

Vexander.9850:

Ronin.7381:

Frosch.7809:

A Charr lifting a human curse is anything but Charr “admitting defeat” but more the opposite. The Charr should not be the ones to lift the curse – it’s a human responsibility.

For me, that’s what I love about it. I think that’s exactly the point. It’s believed to be a “human responsibility”, a charr is practically spitting on that prophecy in attempting to do so.

And in the process it denounces 250 years of growing culture and society for the charr, and further dilutes the little lore humans have left from the original game. Why do that when both races can have their lore and stories in-tact?

Looking at it, I don’t think it “denounces” anything.

The Charr have been beating Ascalonians for decades and all Ascalon could do was repel the Charr efforts but never beat them back. Even with their civil war, the Flame Legion was able to crack that defense. Adelbern in his stubbornness knew that with his death, if something wasn’t done, his people would fail him and his legacy – he would be a smudge in the history books. So he came to the insane conclusion that not only robbed the Charr but also entailed that for an eternity Ascalonians would fight.

Within these 250 years, these ghosts have been beaten and then returned every other week to continue what they were doing before their initial defeat. A reset button on constant rotation. Even for a Charr that’s heavily taxing on their body, to fight an enemy that can’t relent – irony.

So for a Charr to undo this curse, is a bigger wad of spit in Adelberns face than any you could construe that the task would do unto the Charr. In this sense, victory is its own reward, it’s as if they’re beating Adelbern at his own game and not being a human while doing it. No, in representing the image that he and his people have grown to fear and hate – they would be released by their eternal enemies. That’s just poetic justice.

Ronin.7381:

Silvercyclone.1462:

The swords were made in Orr by humans for humans there is no reason why the curse would break for a Charr.

Again, their creation and original purpose has next to nothing to do with their application during Adelberns spell. Orr created the blades as a token of peace. Peace became meaningless when Orr was sunk into the murky depths of the Ocean.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. They were meant as tokens of peace because of the Guild Wars ending, they didn’t have anything to do with the Cataclysm.

This also isn’t a spit in humanity’s face as a whole, I disagree. This is a spit in Adelberns face and that guy deserved to be taken down a peg. He left his son to die when his son had the right idea. Kitten him! :P

Obsidian.1328:

Ronin.7381:

Silvercyclone.1462:

The swords were made in Orr by humans for humans there is no reason why the curse would break for a Charr.

Again, their creation and original purpose has next to nothing to do with their application during Adelberns spell. Orr created the blades as a token of peace. Peace became meaningless when Orr was sunk into the murky depths of the Ocean.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. They were meant as tokens of peace because of the Guild Wars ending, they didn’t have anything to do with the Cataclysm.

I didn’t say they did had anything to do with the Cataclysm. After the Cataclysm peace between Ascalon and Orr was meaningless, their creation had nothing to do with the ritual Adelbern subjected his own people to. In this regard, the purpose of their creation is irrelevent to be mentioned in regards to the FoeFire – it does not care.

Ronin.7381:

Obsidian.1328:

Ronin.7381:

Silvercyclone.1462:

The swords were made in Orr by humans for humans there is no reason why the curse would break for a Charr.

Again, their creation and original purpose has next to nothing to do with their application during Adelberns spell. Orr created the blades as a token of peace. Peace became meaningless when Orr was sunk into the murky depths of the Ocean.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. They were meant as tokens of peace because of the Guild Wars ending, they didn’t have anything to do with the Cataclysm.

I didn’t say they did have anything to do with the cataclysm. After the Cataclysm peace between Ascalon and Orr was meaningless, their creation had nothing to do with the ritual Adelbern subjected his own people to.

Certainly their creation would signify something about their power and about the curse. The power of the Foefire came from the swords, not from Adelbern. He was a warrior, not a wizard. The “sorcerer king” thing, along with many other things concerning him, is a GW2 construct. He didn’t have an ounce of arcane mischief in GW1.

Also, you reeeeeeeeeally hate Adelbern.

note: the twin swords were created pre-exodus(0 AE), but they weren’t given to Ascalon royalty until the end of the Guild Wars. No idea if that’s important, but they weren’t “created” as peace tokens, they were only given as such.

Obsidian.1328:

Certainly their creation would signify something about their power and about the curse.

They were magical because Orr was the home of the gods in the physical realm. It’s a misconception to think they were created for the purpose of The Foefire specifically, more so it was by association with magical prowess.

Curse was cast by the sword and must be undone by the sword(s). That’s the only connection there is to Orr. That they were created there but for an entirely different purpose.

Also, you reeeeeeeeeally hate Adelbern.

Actually, quite the contrary. I liked Adelbern, he was a good villain. He portrayed the dark and vile aspects of humanity, the lengths humans could go to and in doing so being just as evil any creature or god – despite being physically and magically far less superior. He was a madman and all madmen deserve justice.

note: the twin swords were created pre-exodus(0 AE), but they weren’t given to Ascalon royalty until the end of the Guild Wars. No idea if that’s important, but they weren’t “created” as peace tokens, they were only given as such.

It’s important in that they were imbued with magic and made powerful. By that same token though so are Twilight, Sunrise, Sunset, Spark, etc

Vexander.9850:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Vexander.9850:

Silvercyclone.1462:

The swords were made in Orr by humans for humans there is no reason why the curse would break for a Charr.

Sure there is. To further move GW2 away from being Human-centric like the original game was, as GW2, unlike the original game, has many more playable races.

i can’t tell if this is a legit (stupid) comment, or a snarky (stupid) comment on ANet shifting away from “humans did everything”.

A little bit of both to be honest. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t find this nearly as offensive and detrimental to the Charr as a lot of what Blizzard does to it’s playable races. However, by the same token, I’d much rather see the Charr handle matters in their own ways, rather than in human ways. If after 250 years of fighting against the Ghosts of Ascalon, of paying for every -inch- of land gained with blood, sweat, and countless lives, it was all undone by -magic-, BY A RENOWNED CHARR HERO NO LESS, well, that just kind of shoves a gigantic middle finger into the face of the Charr race and its efforts for over two centuries.

Now, if a Human lifted the curse with the Sword? Fine. That’s how humans do things. If the Ash Legion’s network of spies and informants had uncovered the, ‘Rightful King of Ascalon,’ in the modern day and forced him to break the curse with the sword, even better. For a Charr to solve Charr problems with -magic- is just… I honestly can’t tell you how insulting it is. It’s practically going, “HEY, THOSE FLAME LEGION GUYS WERE RIGHT, MAGIC IS BETTER!”

magic isn’t taboo for the charr. they just don’t really like it as a whole, just like no one particularly likes necromancy, but they don’t outright reject it either.

the issue i have is that the charr are doing the ritual thing, not a human. it’s a human prophecy designed so only very specific humans can do it. the whole point of the curse is to give the charr the middle finger until humans reconquer ascalon. plus, rytlock’s had that sword for at least the good part of a decade now. if he could end the freaking ghost issue before, he’d have done it.

what i like to think is that the curse can only be broken now that the charr and humans are allies, thus allowing for a human to go there and do their thing in the middle of charr land, in a way that favors only the charr.

I never said that they were created for the Foefire, only that the process of their creation would lend insight into their power.

Correction: Adelbern the Madman was created by GW2 as a plot device to serve the Charr-human conflict in Ascalon. They took a single argument with his son and built an entire alternate persona out of that and infused it into him.

In GW1, he was just an old, stubborn war veteran who had family issues.

Obsidian.1328:

In GW1, he was just an old, stubborn war veteran who had family issues.

Hence madman. He refused any and all help from outside sources and was trying to fight a battle Ascalon wouldn’t win. He practically renounces Rurik for running away and demanded that everyone in Ascalon fight on their last breath. Losing his son when he found out was like the last straw.

So I just found this:
“The theoretical treatise discusses the control of magical energy as it applies to ghosts. Scholar Abel of the Durmand Priory theorizes that ghosts are just magical energy constructs. Because of this, they can be grounded as lightning can, or channelled as electrical surges can. The entire second half of the work is his complaint that no one takes his theories seriously.”

Taken from a book in Entanglement ‘Magical Grounding versus Magical Flow’ by Scholar Abel.

So instead of Rytlock, or Barrington, or whoever, breaking the curse with the sword, Rytlock is using the sword more as a “lightning rod” as way to deal with the ghosts, even as a temporary measure, so they can have unfettered access to Ascalon City for whatever reason….

thoughts?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bp5mo/how_do_i_lore_guide_to_getting_the_most_out_of/

pdavis.8031:

So I just found this:
“The theoretical treatise discusses the control of magical energy as it applies to ghosts. Scholar Abel of the Durmand Priory theorizes that ghosts are just magical energy constructs. Because of this, they can be grounded as lightning can, or channelled as electrical surges can. The entire second half of the work is his complaint that no one takes his theories seriously.”

Taken from a book in Entanglement ‘Magical Grounding versus Magical Flow’ by Scholar Abel.

So instead of Rytlock, or Barrington, or whoever, breaking the curse with the sword, Rytlock is using the sword more as a “lightning rod” as way to deal with the ghosts, even as a temporary measure, so they can have unfettered access to Ascalon City for whatever reason….

thoughts?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bp5mo/how_do_i_lore_guide_to_getting_the_most_out_of/

This theory makes much more sense than the foefire curse breaking. Why would the Charr ignore the dragon threat, which is more serious, and instead deal with the ghosts that they have been fighting with for a couple centuries. Now the ghosts may be magic but that doesn’t mean they radiate enough magic that the dragon will go after them right away.

Also this:

“I feel stupid for just now realizing why Rytlock is curing the curse on Ascalon this next patch. There was a flavor book in this patch or the last talking about how ghosts whether they have consciousness or not are just magical constructs. Beings of pure magic, and Mordremoth’s tendrils are traveling around the world underground attacking places with magical artifacts or waypoints. Mordremoth’s tendrils are going to try and gangbang Ascalon for all the magic that makes up the ghosts and flame legion stuff there.”
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bm3zb/rytlock_in_the_next_patch/

It could be very likely that Mord is heading to Ascalon next, because of the magical energy of the ghosts, and Rytlock is going to attempt to use the sword to either channel the ghostly energy back at Mordy (or his champion) as a weapon, or the harness it for future use. Rytlock uses the phrase “free you from your curse” not because he is actually lifting the curse, at least in the technical sense, but rather gathering or directing of the ghostly energies to be used as a weapon. Thus, not only freeing Ascalon from the ghosts presence, but fighting mordy as well.

Edit: Continuing along this line of thought, it may be brought up that removing the ghosts would create problems with the DE’s and stories in Ascalon involving ghosts. However, I would think that magic being energy, and energy being unable to be destroyed, that after the ghostly energy would be used as a weapon of some sorts, that same energy would dissipate and reform back into the ghosts. That way there would still be ghosts in Ascalon for game mechanic purposes, and would fit in with my theory. But would seem as an unforseen reaction. To which neither Scholar Abel or Rytlock, had accounted for.

Obsidian.1328:

I never said that they were created for the Foefire, only that the process of their creation would lend insight into their power.

Correction: Adelbern the Madman was created by GW2 as a plot device to serve the Charr-human conflict in Ascalon. They took a single argument with his son and built an entire alternate persona out of that and infused it into him.

In GW1, he was just an old, stubborn war veteran who had family issues.

This. He was a prideful, unwavering old man.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

This. He was a prideful, unwavering old man.

And he “died” like a prideful and unwavering old man, fighting the Charrs until his end, at all costs.

Adelbern the Ghost was like King Adelbern in his post-Searing days.

“At all costs” meaning, of course, cursing his entire nation to a fate worse than death, without their knowledge or permission.

Enacting the Foefire was not a heroic act. It was an insane, selfish last-ditch effort to make sure that if he couldn’t win, no one would.

Claiming the mad Adelbern was created specifically for GW2 is quite silly. Unless you want to claim that GW2 was already planned when Prophecies was released.

Adelbern WAS mad, long before GW2 was announced, and it is show rather clearly in the Prophecies campaign and the Titan Missions.
He was broken by the Searing.

lordkrall.7241:

He was broken by the Searing.

Bringing news of Rurik’s death certainly didn’t help either.

“Remember Ascalon” rallied the defense of Ebonhawke. The cost and continued costs of the Charr Pyrrhic victory over Adelburn was, to me, a morale blow to them that probably stopped them from achieving victory at Ebonhawke.

Ebonhawke was an example of Adelberns spirit. Rurik would never have built the place. It was stupid to hold it. But they did. Ebonhawke taught the Charr that Ascalon was more than a place on a map.

Adelbern was old, stubborn, intractable, and filled with Hatred for an enemy. An enemy also consumed by hatred and the willingness to destroy the very land itself in the name of hate. Conceding Ascalon was not an option for him. At the end he was a desperate, cornered man who performed an act of Madness upon an enemy that would have killed them all anyway.

Martyrs are often “madmen”. A Charr who had destroyed his enemies in the same manner as a last act of Defiance would be a legend told to Charr larvae. The “Eternal Legion” would have been revered.

Victors write their own histories. There were no human survivors of Ascalon city to write one.

This is an IC statement. I don’t see any “lore” that precludes me from making it or telling me flat out that I am “wrong”. Whatever that filthy beast does with a sword he has no right to carry isn’t going to sit well.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

A Charr who had destroyed his enemies in the same manner as a last act of Defiance would be a legend told to Charr larvae.

*cubs

and i’m not so sure about that. the charr value a good warmaster even if it’s the enemy. they (or at least rytlock) seems to think adelbern was an idiot. and he’s right.

adelbern gave up on winning, and instead decided to focus on making the charr lose, even if he brought his nation down with them. he changed the rules, and lost the war, but not without first giving the charr a centuries-long middle finger in the form of the ghosts and ebonhawke, an outpost that really just exists to tell the charr “you’ll never have the whole of ascalon”.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

“Remember Ascalon” rallied the defense of Ebonhawke. The cost and continued costs of the Charr Pyrrhic victory over Adelburn was, to me, a morale blow to them that probably stopped them from achieving victory at Ebonhawke.

Ebonhawke was an example of Adelberns spirit. Rurik would never have built the place. It was stupid to hold it. But they did. Ebonhawke taught the Charr that Ascalon was more than a place on a map.

Adelbern was old, stubborn, intractable, and filled with Hatred for an enemy. Conceding Ascalon was not an option for him. At the end he was a desperate man who performed an act of Madness upon an enemy that would have killed them all anyway.

Martyrs are often “madmen”. A Charr who had destroyed his enemies in the same manner as a last act of Defiance would be a legend told to Charr larvae. The “Eternal Legion” would have been revered.

Victors write their own histories. There were no human survivors of Ascalon city to write one.

And that’s what I liked about him. Despite how insane he was, what means he was willing to justify the ends with; he was a pretty cool character from a reader’s perspective.

Ronin.7381:

Morsus.5106:

I don’t think ending the curse is admitting that magic is better than cold steel. The curse can only be ended by the shattering of Sohothin, a magic sword. It would seem more like he’s destroying the magic thkittening it, at least IMO.

It comes down to pride. The FoeFire robbed them of what they believe is their birthright. When pride is at the helm, you do anything to justify your “rightful claim”. Honestly it’s poetic justice, Adelbern wanted his people to fight the Charr forever and here comes a Charr beating him at even that. Removing the curse as a Charr is not just a staple but an insult to everything Adelbern fought for.

Having a human remove the curse would be the insult. “You can’t get rid of some ghosts? Fiiiiiine, I’ll come smash a sword since you can’t do it.” Undoing his magic and removing it is victory from my point of view.

I agree with Morsus, here. A Charr ending a curse believed to rest in the hands of a human would be a Charr victory. Asking a human to do it would be akin to a smack in the face.

Which may well happen anyway. But then it’s a fun conflict for Rytlock.

Here’s the thing; why -ask- a Human to do it?

From the perspective of the larger picture, for a Human to break the Curse, free the spirits of the people of Ascalon, and essentially end the war, would be the -second- major gesture by Humanity that they’re seeking peace with the Charr. It would be a -massive- benefit to the treaty negotiations, which are still on-going. It’s not the Charr being unable to fix it themselves. It’s proof the Charr were strong enough to last through the curse of Adelbern.

If a human breaks the Curse, there is no question of whether or not the Charr are, ‘Strong Enough,’ to outlast the Curse or handle other threats. If a Charr breaks the curse, it’ll forever be seen as, ‘They couldn’t handle their internal affairs as well as external ones like the other races can.’

I don’t really see how a Charr breaking the Foefire curse means “they couldn’t handle their internal affairs.” It means they handled them better. That’s like saying the Sylvari are weak if they dissolve the Nightmare Court, or that the Humans are weak for actually routing the Centaur presence in their lands.

No one would see a Charr breaking the curse as a bad thing for Charr.

DraconicDak.9340:

I don’t really see how a Charr breaking the Foefire curse means “they couldn’t handle their internal affairs.” It means they handled them better. That’s like saying the Sylvari are weak if they dissolve the Nightmare Court, or that the Humans are weak for actually routing the Centaur presence in their lands.

No one would see a Charr breaking the curse as a bad thing for Charr.

The other races and nations contribute to the War against the Elder Dragons, despite having to deal with various internal issues.

Kryta (Humans) – Centaur and White Mantle/Bandits
Hoelbrak (Norn) – Dredge and Sons of Svanir
The Grove (Sylvari) – Risen and the Nightmare Court
Rata Sum (Asura) – Destroyers and the Inquest

The Charr have been fighting against the Ghosts, and the Flame Legion. For them to suddenly go, “We can’t handle this anymore, it’s too much, we’ve gotta get rid of these Ghosts on Human Terms,” and to undo the curse with the Sword is basically announcing to everyone else they couldn’t handle their internal affairs -and- deal with the Elder Dragons like the other nations.

In short, they’re too weak to cut it.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

A Charr who had destroyed his enemies in the same manner as a last act of Defiance would be a legend told to Charr larvae.

*cubs

and i’m not so sure about that. the charr value a good warmaster even if it’s the enemy. they (or at least rytlock) seems to think adelbern was an idiot. and he’s right.

adelbern gave up on winning, and instead decided to focus on making the charr lose, even if he brought his nation down with them. he changed the rules, and lost the war, but not without first giving the charr a centuries-long middle finger in the form of the ghosts and ebonhawke, an outpost that really just exists to tell the charr “you’ll never have the whole of ascalon”.

Er, larvae was the least derogatory term I came up with.

If Adelbern has to wear the “idiot” cap it is for defending a capitol cut off, vastly outnumbered and with no hope of retreat, rescue and supply. Had he withdrawn prior to that situation the Charr would have just added “coward” and pursued anyway by then. I do not think the Rurik option remained.

He had no option of “winning”. Not at that point. The only choice the Ascalon Army and King had was to make their enemy pay dearly for the victory. And they did. The Garrison was doomed no matter what. All of Ascalon knew that a surrender to Charr was slavery and death.

And yes, He changed the Rules. That is how you beat the Kobiyashi Maru scenario.

Adelbern did not destroy his Nation. As long as Ebonhawke held, the Nation lived.

Vexander.9850:

The other races and nations contribute to the War against the Elder Dragons, despite having to deal with various internal issues.

Kryta (Humans) – Centaur and White Mantle/Bandits
Hoelbrak (Norn) – Dredge and Sons of Svanir
The Grove (Sylvari) – Risen and the Nightmare Court
Rata Sum (Asura) – Destroyers and the Inquest

The Charr have been fighting against the Ghosts, and the Flame Legion. For them to suddenly go, “We can’t handle this anymore, it’s too much, we’ve gotta get rid of these Ghosts on Human Terms,” and to undo the curse with the Sword is basically announcing to everyone else they couldn’t handle their internal affairs -and- deal with the Elder Dragons like the other nations.

In short, they’re too weak to cut it.

Or you can spin it as “The Charr took care of and ended one of their issues on top of providing most of the mechanical effort to the Pact,” which makes them look stronger than the other races.

Which is surely how every Charr would see it.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Er, larvae was the least derogatory term I came up with.

If Adelbern has to wear the “idiot” cap it is for defending a capitol cut off, vastly outnumbered and with no hope of retreat, rescue and supply. Had he withdrawn prior to that situation the Charr would have just added “coward” and pursued anyway by then. I do not think the Rurik option remained.

He had no option of “winning”. Not at that point. The only choice the Ascalon Army and King had was to make their enemy pay dearly for the victory. And they did. The Garrison was doomed no matter what. All of Ascalon knew that a surrender to Charr was slavery and death.

And yes, He changed the Rules. That is how you beat the Kobiyashi Maru scenario.

Adelbern did not destroy his Nation. As long as Ebonhawke held, the Nation lived.

So you’re saying Adelbern was being a good, honorable king in murdering the entirety of his nation (excepting a single fortress, naturally).

DraconicDak.9340:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Er, larvae was the least derogatory term I came up with.

If Adelbern has to wear the “idiot” cap it is for defending a capitol cut off, vastly outnumbered and with no hope of retreat, rescue and supply. Had he withdrawn prior to that situation the Charr would have just added “coward” and pursued anyway by then. I do not think the Rurik option remained.

He had no option of “winning”. Not at that point. The only choice the Ascalon Army and King had was to make their enemy pay dearly for the victory. And they did. The Garrison was doomed no matter what. All of Ascalon knew that a surrender to Charr was slavery and death.

And yes, He changed the Rules. That is how you beat the Kobiyashi Maru scenario.

Adelbern did not destroy his Nation. As long as Ebonhawke held, the Nation lived.

So you’re saying Adelbern was being a good, honorable king in murdering the entirety of his nation (excepting a single fortress, naturally).

a single fortress that only survived because it was lucky to be far enough away, otherwise not even ebonhawke would’ve survived, meaning all of ascalon would be dead.

“As long as Ebonhawke held, the Nation lived.” that sure is what the ebonhawke citizens keep spouting, cornered while the majority of ascalon is charr territory now. that’s like saying “so long as we hold jersey, the united states hasn’t lost!” as canada takes over the holds control of the rest of the land.

lordkrall.7241:

Claiming the mad Adelbern was created specifically for GW2 is quite silly. Unless you want to claim that GW2 was already planned when Prophecies was released.

Adelbern WAS mad, long before GW2 was announced, and it is show rather clearly in the Prophecies campaign and the Titan Missions.
He was broken by the Searing.

Show us all that evidence please.

DraconicDak.9340:

So you’re saying Adelbern was being a good, honorable king in murdering the entirety of his nation (excepting a single fortress, naturally).

Adelbern responsible for the death of the human nation of Ascalon, wow, that’s something.

The Searing killed half the population of Ascalon, of the survivors a part went with Rurik, and at the time of the Foefire there were only two places outside of Charr control, Ascalon City and Ebonhawke. If someone was left alive at that time they got dragged away to the North to die for the Charr’s amusement later.

The Charr murdered the entirety of the human nation of Ascalon except those that left for Kryta and Ebonhawke and the few defenders left alive at the time of the Foefire inside Ascalon City. Those that died directly in the Foefire would also have been killed by the Charr.

Your statement is the actual opposite of what happened.

Adelbern did not let the Charr have the “victory” they wanted, that’s war. Poor Charr couldn’t murder the remaining humans inside Ascalon City and got incinerated instead, i can understand that that’s galling for the Charr till today.

BrunoBRS.5178:

a single fortress that only survived because it was lucky to be far enough away, otherwise not even ebonhawke would’ve survived, meaning all of ascalon would be dead.

Another myth that one can see getting repeated here at this Forum is that Ebonhawke only survived till today because they got “lucky”. It was too far away for the effect of the Foefire to reach it, but where is proof that Adelbern did or didn’t intentionally spare it? And Ebonhawke survived 250 years of Charr siege not because of the Charr’s generosity – they tried to take it and failed. No wonder since there were no Titans around.

DraconicDak.9340:

So you’re saying Adelbern was being a good, honorable king in murdering the entirety of his nation (excepting a single fortress, naturally).

Why does everyone assume the regular Ascalon wouldn’t have wanted to do the same thing Adelbern did? There are countless times in history where a people chose annihilation over slavery. Even a Hollywood’d movie like “300” evokes the same sentiment, the Charr/Ascalon dynamic is little different.

If you had to choose between slavery and death, what would you choose?

BrunoBRS.5178:

DraconicDak.9340:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Er, larvae was the least derogatory term I came up with.

If Adelbern has to wear the “idiot” cap it is for defending a capitol cut off, vastly outnumbered and with no hope of retreat, rescue and supply. Had he withdrawn prior to that situation the Charr would have just added “coward” and pursued anyway by then. I do not think the Rurik option remained.

He had no option of “winning”. Not at that point. The only choice the Ascalon Army and King had was to make their enemy pay dearly for the victory. And they did. The Garrison was doomed no matter what. All of Ascalon knew that a surrender to Charr was slavery and death.

And yes, He changed the Rules. That is how you beat the Kobiyashi Maru scenario.

Adelbern did not destroy his Nation. As long as Ebonhawke held, the Nation lived.

So you’re saying Adelbern was being a good, honorable king in murdering the entirety of his nation (excepting a single fortress, naturally).

a single fortress that only survived because it was lucky to be far enough away, otherwise not even ebonhawke would’ve survived, meaning all of ascalon would be dead.

“As long as Ebonhawke held, the Nation lived.” that sure is what the ebonhawke citizens keep spouting, cornered while the majority of ascalon is charr territory now. that’s like saying “so long as we hold jersey, the united states hasn’t lost!” as canada takes over the holds control of the rest of the land.

Marathon called, they want their legacy back.

Please source your population numbers from GW1, relating to the Searing. Because from what I played, it seems like the Searing was mostly environmental damage, and didn’t do a very good job of killing Ascalonian Humans.

Just because Ascalon was under Charr control doesn’t mean that it was completely devoid of humans. Indeed, the presence of Foefire ghosts indicates plenty of scout patrols and hiding civilians were outside the physical city walls.

As for sparing Ebonhawke:

If Adelbern turned his people into ghosts on purpose, to fight the Charr forever, why would he leave out his strongest forces at Ebonhawke?

If Adelbern didn’t really intend to curse Ascalon’s humans, then he wasn’t aware of the capacity to spare anything.

Obsidian.1328:

Why does everyone assume the regular Ascalon wouldn’t have wanted to do the same thing Adelbern did? There are countless times in history where a people chose annihilation over slavery. Even a Hollywood’d movie like “300” evokes the same sentiment, the Charr/Ascalon dynamic is little different.

If you had to choose between slavery and death, what would you choose?

Obsidian, they didn’t have that choice. Adelbern enacted the Foefire without the knowledge or permission of his people.

DraconicDak.9340:

Obsidian, they didn’t have that choice. Adelbern enacted the Foefire without the knowledge or permission of his people.

And?

Allowing the Ascalonian people to make that choice is fine. Any soldiers who wanted to be turned into ghosts and oppose the Charr for eternity, their sacrifice can be construed as noble; they are sacrificing themselves alone, for a cause they truly believe in.

Making that choice for them, assuming that they would all agree, is folly.

They could have agreed with Adelbern, but they weren’t given the chance. That’s what’s wrong with Adelbern’s actions.

The dwarves chose as a race to become living stone to oppose Primordus. That is noble.

Adelbern decided that all Ascalon should become ghosts to oppose the charr, regardless of whether they wanted to or not. That is monstrous.

Obsidian.1328:

Why does everyone assume the regular Ascalon wouldn’t have wanted to do the same thing Adelbern did? There are countless times in history where a people chose annihilation over slavery. Even a Hollywood’d movie like “300” evokes the same sentiment, the Charr/Ascalon dynamic is little different.

If you had to choose between slavery and death, what would you choose?

because the ascalonians were running away from the charr when it happened. also, the 300 soldiers you mentioned died to buy time so the rest of the nation had a chance of victory. a small group sacrificed to the larger group could win the war.

adelbern’s actions are the opposite, he just kittened up the whole nation because in his mind, if humans can’t have ascalon, then no one will, even if it means a fate worse than death to every ascalonian in range (which boils down to “pretty much every ascalonian”)

Frosch.7809:

BrunoBRS.5178:

a single fortress that only survived because it was lucky to be far enough away, otherwise not even ebonhawke would’ve survived, meaning all of ascalon would be dead.

Another myth that one can see getting repeated here at this Forum is that Ebonhawke only survived till today because they got “lucky”. It was too far away for the effect of the Foefire to reach it, but where is proof that Adelbern did or didn’t intentionally spare it? And Ebonhawke survived 250 years of Charr siege not because of the Charr’s generosity – they tried to take it and failed. No wonder since there were no Titans around.

so you propose what, that the blast radius covered the entire geographical region of ascalon, but stopped just short of ebonhawke out of pity? strategy?

and ebonhawke was on the verge of defeat. they’re cornered and sieged. turtling yourself inside the keep is only a valid strategy if you have the supplies to outsiege the enemy, and ebonhawke’s supplies were obviously much smaller than the charr’s. kryta kept them up for long enough to start the treaty negotiations. if not for kryta, there would be no ebonhawke left.

Obsidian.1328:

DraconicDak.9340:

Obsidian, they didn’t have that choice. Adelbern enacted the Foefire without the knowledge or permission of his people.

And?

oh, here, let me torture you for all of eternity by making you relive the worst days of your life over and over forever. don’t talk, you don’t get a say in it. also you’ll die horrible, painful deaths almost every other day, because you’ll be always fighting and killing and dying.

i’m blown away that someone would actually defend adelbern’s actions. i don’t think even the ascalonians in the game think he was right in it.

Assuming for some odd reason any regular Ascalon wouldn’t want to do that, what’s the difference between that and a general ordering his troops to defend a spot at all costs?

The fact that the Foefire encompassed the entirety of the Ascalon basin only lends itself to the idea that ANet wanted to make him another Vizier-like doosh. Initially, it made sense to me because I assumed it was limited to Ascalon City. But it affected the entire country? WTF? How can one sword do that? And even so…if he had that kind of power all along why didn’t he use it before? Really? Why didn’t he just head north with a small group and nuke the Charr there? It doesn’t make any sense at all. He was a seasoned warrior and his son dying made him hate life and enact mass murder?

And Bruno, I’m rather blown away that his madness is so readily accepted. What the heck made him so insane?

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’m blown away that someone would actually defend adelbern’s actions. i don’t think even the ascalonians in the game think he was right in it.

I don’t think it’s so much him trying to defend Adelbern but rather him trying to justify his dislike towards Arenanet for the wrong reasons. Now sure, we have plenty of aspects the writers themselves have fudged up but I can’t find a single source of Adelbern being changed yet Obsidian acts like that from GW1 to GW2, there’s some kind of alternate universe going on.

By his logic, he should be chatting away in the Mordremoth name drop but not here.

He was an old warrior whose successes had always been celebrated. A hero of the Guild Wars. Made king above the rightful heir.

And then his kingdom is beset, he is slowly but surely pushed back, his son disagrees his plans and is then killed, and at last, he is facing certain defeat at the very end of the war, everything he has built and built up literally crumbling around him, and there is nothing he can do to save it.

And you’re surprised he went mad?

Obsidian.1328:

And Bruno, I’m rather blown away that his madness is so readily accepted. What the heck made him so insane?

The Searing for one, an attempt at mass genocide over an area of land in which he refused to leave. Unrelenting forces of Charr trying to breach the wall, never stopping, his son running off on him, said son ends up dying, the Charr are planning an offensive that wouldn’t fail….

I mean pick a branch and start climbing. He became desperate, the Charr were setting captives on effigies when the Flame Legion encompassed the Charr as a whole. Name me one single Ascalonian who wanted to be turned into a ghost. His own steward was terrified of what the king was about to do. he was stabbed by him, and even begged mercy of the Charr who were sent in to assassinate Adelbern.

Obsidian.1328:

Assuming for some odd reason any regular Ascalon wouldn’t want to do that, what’s the difference between that and a general ordering his troops to defend a spot at all costs?

The fact that the Foefire encompassed the entirety of the Ascalon basin only lends itself to the idea that ANet wanted to make him another Vizier-like doosh. Initially, it made sense to me because I assumed it was limited to Ascalon City. But it affected the entire country? WTF? How can one sword do that? And even so…if he had that kind of power all along why didn’t he use it before? Really? Why didn’t he just head north with a small group and nuke the Charr there? It doesn’t make any sense at all. He was a seasoned warrior and his son dying made him hate life and enact mass murder?

And Bruno, I’m rather blown away that his madness is so readily accepted. What the heck made him so insane?

i think the soldiers that were in ascalon city were ready to defend until death. then they broke under the pressure and started fleeing.

and the foefire, as i described, is worse than death. a charr kills you, you go to the underworld, grenth puts you on a queue to paradise, and it’s over. adelbern’s way, you relive the ascalon city invasion over, and over again, for the rest of eternity or until someone breaks the curse. i’m pretty sure some circles of hell are supposed to punish people like that.

and come on, how wouldn’t he be insane? his pride cost him his son and his nation, both dead after said nation got nuked in front of his eyes. he has nothing to lose. he’s beyond jaded. he’s broken, just like the soldiers that were running. difference is his arrogance, pride, and thirst for vengeance, tied with a legendary sword he obtained when he was crowned king (over the rightful heir), caused him to choose the foefire. it was his way of going berserk and killing himself for the fight.

Wait, what? His pride cost him his nation? He didn’t kill his son, nor his nation. Dagnar killed his son, and the Charr were killing his people.

A lot of my disbelief comes from how Anet decided the war to turn out. At the end of GW, the war is actually turning back towards Ascalons favor. The Charr blitz gamble had succeeded in Orr(kinda), failed in Kryta, and stalemated in Ascalon. Furthermore, they had successfully stopped the second charge on Ascalon(albeit at the cost of Rin), and even managed to kill off the Titan source…the backbone behind the Charr onslaught.

Not to mention there are overt references in Factions of the war actually being over from an Ascalon diplomat to Cantha…
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”
But that part was obviously overlooked.

Fast forward 10 in-game years with GW2 ANet at the helm, then all of a sudden Ascalon is overrun again, the city surrounded, Adelbern is insane, and the Charr as innumerable as the stars. The Charr females must be reeeeeally tired at this point.

I really don’t know how anyone doesn’t see that as a paradigm shift in the game in terms of developer decisions concerning who will live and who will die.

I’d rather they just be honest about and say the equivalent of, “Yeah…we needed a place for the Charr to call home, and Ascalon was it. So…umm…we had to write in all this Foefire/CrazyAdelbern/AncestralHomeland stuff to legitimize it. I mean…Ascalon was hurtin’ soooo bad, come on!”

actually, the people that decided the foefire are the same people that helmed GW1’s plot. so you can stop pretending these “new people” that don’t know better are ruining your ascalonian pride.