Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Actually; you yourself have already presented several amazing examples:

• A sketch of the creature I saw…
• As we approached the battlegrounds…
• This is where Destiny’s Edge confronted the…
• Dragons consume magic…

These notes can be found in-game (scattered around Dry Top), but if you’re able to present books and notes more like this in the future, I think it would greatly increase the attention towards GW lore among all players.

P.S. This would also make it possible to add your wonderful short stories (and e.g. An Empire Divided) to the game!

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Thanks.

First I would say make the library itself more open to us after the instance, would be one of the major factors. The other one is have research catalogs start pulling information about subjects we are currently, or previously investigating. So that way if there was something crucial missing that needs be addressed you can find more detailed information there.

Beyond that I would say make them more interactive. For instance some some of the books could relate to a heavily influenced Easter Egg location in game. Something in tune to what it was done during the first Halloween scavenger hunt. Basically encourage exploration in Tyria a bit more, beyond just collectable stuff. Or have researchers talk to you about certain creatures or geographical location that needs to be heavily documented. Once you finish the documentation you have a new book in the library and maybe even co-authored by the player. Probably have the book lay around your home instance somewhere. You could throw in some concept art on the subject material.

If you want more of fantasy approach to the books, then make them feel more alive. Certain books would have subtle ambient sounds/music in the background. Direct voice over quotes from a narrator (Scarlet’s journal) or pulled from live interviews. How about forbidden material trying to pull you or forcing it’s way out of it’s subject matter. Or even a heavily influenced narrative interactive puzzle. It could be decoded within the library itself, or a reference to a location where it can be solved.

On a side note; I was heavily thinking about how Cyan World’s Myst franchise handled books and writing techniques within their games/novels. As I was writing this. Since they had a way of making it a rewarding experience to understand the importance of the lore in game. In addition to how it does effects the rest of the world (including you).

Thanks for the answers Bobby and I highly appreaciate the time you took to answer them.
I can only imagine how difficult it all can be, but I am very thankful everytime one of you sticks his head out and comments.

As for the big things , I think they are often pretty clear in terms of narrative problems (As people are often confused about what it was about and only outside information would help to understand it). While i wouldn`t expect to see you all go into the retcon terriory discussions (you said you you do not want to enter these debates), I was rather talking about things that just slipped through or were pushed from above.

However as I write that, I can see how difficult it would be to word that right, without pushing a blame around, that does not really exist and as you also said that would be no thing for the forums, even though it would be very interesting

Anyway, keep up the work.

(btw. while I (maybe) have your attention. Could you put some heralds into towns and across the land? some guys who shout the recent news. Or a newspaper. A global newspaper. Have some paperboys run around and us able to read them. Let them earn their candy… I mean coin. get the LA kids off the destroyed street, maybe)

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Thanks.

This topic is actually talked about in another topic allready:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/New-Narrative-Director-at-ANet

Not directly of course, since it is mostly used to get your collegue Leah`s attention (and by that the narrative team naturally, but so far it is her thread and she asked some good questions so far), but exactly the lorebook question was something people were split about.

There were several suggestions to improve the system and the UI, most of which have allready been said here on this part of the forum, so let me just give a quick sumary, sicne I indulge most of them anyway:

ingame presentation
One of the things people were asking about was an actually displayed book to flick through. It was introduced in the later parts of Guild Wars 1 with the black Moa Mini quest and the EotN Dungeon Books.
Some were even pointing to the Eldar Scrolls games, who were using this system to tell their story in a plethora of books.

This would not only allow the text to shine better, but would also allow the designers to have their fun, maybe incorporate more visual clues, or just some fluff.
I bet you got so many artworks and visual assets around, that could help you immerse us more into the world (like the rocket dolyak in Scarlets hidden laboratory)

UI additions
Lorebooks around the world are always nice. I heard they were part of the beta, but got scrapped (I think)

However with so many Lore in the world. So many POI which actually have NPCs talking to you, I always wished for some kind of Codex, that fills contextual.
If you reach a Place, learn some info on it by talking to an NPC, maybe even infos on enemies and the like.

There was the game Warhammer Online which had such a feature and it got me to travel the world as it was not only great to expose the story of the world, but was also able to be used for other benefits, like titles, archivements or some passive bonus (mostly for fighting, but thats another matter)

It was great for the collector and lorehunt in me, because it also organized the info.
If that would be combined with a good search engine, than it would be great.

The info in it would of course not be a 1 to 1 transcript of what is told you, but a condensed form, which might add new lines, the more info you get.

Like you travel to a POI, you unlocked the place in the Codex, it`s name and location.
If you read the plate, you get info on what is supposed to have happened here, maybe with a date.
If you then talk to some scolar nearby, you get the last piece of information.

Or maybe you find items, that unlock infos. Pick up an enviromental item. Like if you are gathering info about the Meatober festival, than you might unlock a line after you have eaten some of their Meat, describing the taste.

To be honest, I know it would be adifficult system as it would not only be a new UI piece with several pages , but would need to add unlock connections to all these things you allready put in the game.

A man can dream, can`t he?

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Thanks.

I think that opening up the library is a great way to move forward.

just recently, you’ve added new books to the smaller priory library, which touched some living story stuff.

In Dry Top, we’ve seen the 3 priory members progressing within the map, and learning new stuff as they progressed. I think that we should see some new books documenting their findings.

Giving us access to the bigger library would give you more room to expand and put in new books. We could find books containing recent events and such.

Also, a new interface for the books, maybe something similar to the books/quest books we had in GW1

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

One word:

Storybooks

I’m not speaking of the content so much as the design. When you opened it up, it would show a book, and you can flip the pages.

Another, similar, item spawned a scroll

If you can tie items and interactive objects to reveal more book or scroll-like dialogue boxes, that can hold both text and images, then that’s really all you need. Then take the books here and replace the old with new dialogue boxes, expanding them, and creating more to read. And then take the short stories and old blog posts and add them in the various libraries in the game (DR’s library, the main library DP may be too full though, the DP basement – see below – etc.).

Another thing to do: Make the Durmand Priory Basement (access to Ogden’s secret room pending) accessible to everyone via The Durmand Priory instance with a new set of books.

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Bring back the loading screens with lore tidbits and the in-game books, that both were present in beta. For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Wn4wAOZmQ

Seriously, why did that never make it into final game, either at release or sometime after that?

/lurkermode

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Thanks.

i think i’m going in the opposing trend to the rest of the lore forum, but what i especially liked about the books is that they’re short, easily digestible tidbits of information. rather than something larger like the short stories you posted on blogs (i have… issues with keeping up with large volumes of text presented in-game), they’re about 10 lines long each, divided in several short paragraphs presented one at a time. it might not go in deep detail about the color of the shoelace kosh wore in the fight against abaddon, but it presents the information clearly and concisely.

and i guess that’s what i really want you to keep focusing on: being concise. by all means, make lots of flavorful books, but i’d prefer them to be kept short, but many, than getting an epic novel in-game that has to be read on arial 8 on a beige background in a tiny window, as a wall of text.

What Konig said.

Diovid.9506:

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Bring back the loading screens with lore tidbits and the in-game books, that both were present in beta. For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Wn4wAOZmQ

Seriously, why did that never make it into final game, either at release or sometime after that?

I had forgotten about that, but yes, bring those back.

They don’t need to be around for the story steps, but I would like one for the zones and open world instances, please.

Some of the more curious lore of GW1 came from town/outpost descriptions.

BrunoBRS.5178:

/lurkermode

BobbyStein.2315:

Back on topic. It seems that people liked the lore books. How would you like to see them improve or evolve? Examples help.

Thanks.

i think i’m going in the opposing trend to the rest of the lore forum, but what i especially liked about the books is that they’re short, easily digestible tidbits of information. rather than something larger like the short stories you posted on blogs (i have… issues with keeping up with large volumes of text presented in-game), they’re about 10 lines long each, divided in several short paragraphs presented one at a time. it might not go in deep detail about the color of the shoelace kosh wore in the fight against abaddon, but it presents the information clearly and concisely.

and i guess that’s what i really want you to keep focusing on: being concise. by all means, make lots of flavorful books, but i’d prefer them to be kept short, but many, than getting an epic novel in-game that has to be read on arial 8 on a beige background in a tiny window, as a wall of text.

I think it does not have to be more than it already is.
Remember these books can all have a different style, which measn that ten sentences in one book can be 20 in another, depending on how they are written by each creator.

You have to remember that not all books are the same size, so you could really have a small journal in your hand at one point, while opening up a big enzyclopedia the next.

It could be enhanced with other things, like scribblings, different paper, ink blobs. thinks you might find in a book.

If done right it does not matter how much is written, but rather how it is presented, which in turn could result in a deeper immersion for us.

At this point it wouldn`t be a graphic novel, but rather something that can be used on several level.

By using not only narrative, but also visual means we get a much better insight in what we are reading.

A book, which has lost it`s color. Some blood splattered on the side and a story about the last steps its owner, with a picture of his family stuck between the pages.
For me that is creating a much more intensive picture in my mind, while also leaving things up to imagination.

I am glad to see the books but I would like them to be better written. They did not seem realistic to me as the writings of great scholars, great historians, great poets, or anyone else of note.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Another thing to do: Make the Durmand Priory Basement (access to Ogden’s secret room pending) accessible to everyone via The Durmand Priory instance with a new set of books.

It is supposed to be at least moderately a secret – possibly make it available to Priory characters when they join, but characters of other orders only get regular access when they complete S2E5? That way Priory characters get something distinctive to them (similar to how Whispers characters can use their code on various NPC Whispers agents spread across the open world) even if it does open up to other characters later.

Obviously this is criticism, and I largely enjoyed being able to poke around a large Tyrian library.

draxynnic.3719:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Another thing to do: Make the Durmand Priory Basement (access to Ogden’s secret room pending) accessible to everyone via The Durmand Priory instance with a new set of books.

It is supposed to be at least moderately a secret – possibly make it available to Priory characters when they join, but characters of other orders only get regular access when they complete S2E5? That way Priory characters get something distinctive to them (similar to how Whispers characters can use their code on various NPC Whispers agents spread across the open world) even if it does open up to other characters later.

I agree with this – it felt odd enough that a high-ranking Order of Whispers member was being let into the secret archives of the Durmand Priory, and given the security involved, being able to wander in there whenever we wanted feels… odd. At the very least, if I’m not a Durmand Priory member, I should have to negotiate access through my Order – I’m going there for lore, not for gameplay, so making it have a little friction helps with the flavour.

I wasn’t thrilled with some of the writing of the lore books – it felt as if it had the same voice despite being written in wildly different time periods, by different authors. Some of the poetry and free verse suffered particularly from this. (Along similar lines, I’d like to see some of Tyria’s art represented in-game – we have a lot of history, not a lot of philosophy or mythology.)

It also bothered me that the hidden archives seemed to have the same mix of books as elsewhere in Tyria. Why are children’s stories in a secure facility?

I agree with other posters that a book window would be much appreciated.

I forgot to mention but yeah, I was thinking of ‘complete S2E5’ for access requirements.

Merus.9475:

Why are children’s stories in a secure facility?

History is everything. I would certainly imagine that the DP would want to have at least one copy of every book ever written. And perhaps a couple of extra copies for the works considered of great importance.

What may seem irrelevant now, may become important later, and I think the DP is very well aware of that. E.g.: a children’s book may hide a deeper meaning, or if not: it may still provide some insight into things like race culture and focus areas of the time period it was written.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thus the result would be:

Jormag: Mind and Ice (or Desire and Ice)

Kralkatorrik: Physical and Crystal (he corrupts things that are physical for the most part)

Primordus: Fire and Rock (he’s called the “rock dragon” at one point just as he is called the fire dragon all the other times, his minions are twisted stone, corrupted by being bathed in lava)

Weather/Air is one of K’s spheres, as it is one of Glint’s spheres, and dragon champions share the spheres of their associated Elder Dragon.

At a guess, the spheres are a mix and match of the 12 spheres associated with the Gods. Those are: Earth+Plants/Growth, Fire+Strength, Ice+Death, Air+Life, Water+Mind (as retconned for GW2), and Shadow+Truth (sort of breaking “secrets” into two components).

Thus, speculatively, the Dragon spheres are Fire+Earth, Strength+Ice, Death+Shadow, Plants+Mind, Air+Truth (Glint was also a prophet, after all), and Water+Life.

Since Life is an odd choice for an antagonist, it suggests the possibility that once again, there is a sixth, hidden, ocean-related outsider force in opposition to the five known forces.

Yes, after that post, perilisk, I’ve come to see Kralk as Air and Crystal, and Jormag as Spirit and Ice.

The God/Dragon line up does not work even when considering twelve spheres. Who would have Life, War, Illusion? What god has Crystal? Lyssa isn’t “mind” but “illusion” – though you can tie the two, I would tie Kormir’s Knowledge to Mind more (Mordremoth’s mental influence has thus far only gone to “smart” sylvari – engineers, rather). And I really wouldn’t tie Kralkatorrik to “Truth” – Glint was one hell of a liar, after all, and her being a prophet wasn’t about truths but foretelling.

As I see it, the Dragons are:
Fire+Destruction
Ice+Spirit
Plant+Mind
Death+Shadow
Crystal+Air

And no real way to think about the DSD. He corrupts water, sure, but nothign says that’s part of his corruption – just like how Kralkatorrik corrupts the ground and flesh but that’s not likely tied to him. Any Elder Dragon could, really, corrupt anything – we know Primordus can corrupt living beings via an interview, though we’ve yet to see such happen.

I don’t see the DSD as being opposed to the other Elder Dragons either. The thing pushed the krait, quaggan, karka, and largos out of their homes (well, largos seem to be holding onto their home, but still).

Well, to be fair, if I recall rightly, the DSD didn’t directly drive the quaggans out – it drove the krait out, and the krait then drove out the quaggans. It’s possible that the DSD was only looking to attack the more destructive undersea races, and the impact on the quaggans was an unintended consequence.

And as I’ve said before, I don’t think we can be as sure as you are that Illusion (or Beauty) is actually part of Lyssa’s core identity. She’s known as the goddess of beauty and illusions to humans, but she’s also known for wearing masks – being known as the goddess of beauty and illusions could be just another mask beneath which her true domains are hiding.

The other gods you can distill down to two or three of their core domains that encompass the majority of what they’re known for. Dwayna is life and the sky, Balthazar fire and competition, and so on. For Lyssa, though, “beauty” and “illusions” is barely scratching the surface, and there’s much that she’s associated with that isn’t derived from either.

On the quaggan being driven out – there’s conflicting sources on it. Bullablopp says that the quaggans (his village at least) fled the dragons and ran into the krait in shallower waters.

So I think that the main body of quaggan were forced out by krait, but there were some that were forced out by the DSD directly, later on.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Yes, after that post, perilisk, I’ve come to see Kralk as Air and Crystal, and Jormag as Spirit and Ice.

The God/Dragon line up does not work even when considering twelve spheres. Who would have Life, War, Illusion? What god has Crystal? Lyssa isn’t “mind” but “illusion” – though you can tie the two, I would tie Kormir’s Knowledge to Mind more (Mordremoth’s mental influence has thus far only gone to “smart” sylvari – engineers, rather). And I really wouldn’t tie Kralkatorrik to “Truth” – Glint was one hell of a liar, after all, and her being a prophet wasn’t about truths but foretelling.

It’s a good point about Crystal. However, the Zephyrites have shown us that there is a great deal encompassed in any given sphere (e.g. “Air” has Sun, Wind, and Lightning).

There isn’t really a Light sphere in either the god or dragon category (as the presence of Darkness might suggest), and such a sphere could feasibly encompass both Truth and Crystal (in the sense that crystals often have interesting optical properties) as Aspects. While there is some overlap between Truth and Mind, truth is truth whether a mind perceives it or not.

Scarlet forged many alliances and learned many secrets, but when we actually faced her, her last major defenses were based in holomagic (ie, light). Note that the red/blue/green mechanics of the facet of light are very similar to the red/blue/green holomagic that was based on the Asuran colleges, suggesting that the Asuran take on mind (intellect and truth) is somehow related to the sphere of Light, unlike the Sylvari take (dream, nightmare), which is probably more related to Mordremoth given his champion’s presence in the Dream.

Of course, there’s another angle there — crystal is also a major motif in Zephyrite magic. If Zephyrite magic is purely Air sphere, then that suggests Crystal is a subset thereof (and therefore, there is another sphere unaccounted for). On the other hand, if Zephyrite magic is based on both of K’s and Glint’s spheres, and not just Air, the presence of “Sun” as part of their triad lends a bit of credence to the idea that the second Sphere is Light, of which Crystal and Sun are Aspects.

It’s interesting to me that the same dual “sphere” concept that can be applied to the Dragons can also be applied to the major native races of Tyria. It could be a coincidence, but the Asura seem to have an affinity for Air (note the floating cities) and Light (per the aforementioned connection between the colleges, holomagic, and the facet of Light), while the Sylvari are tied to Plants and Mind (in the sense of Dream and Nightmare). The Charr have some affinity to both Fire and Earth, both in their historical service to the Titans, and in their steampunk technology. The Norn are accustomed to living near Ice, and are known for their Strength and prowess as hunters (Jormag’s followers are seduced by promises of power, obsessed with strength, and consider the dragon the ultimate hunter.).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On the quaggan being driven out – there’s conflicting sources on it. Bullablopp says that the quaggans (his village at least) fled the dragons and ran into the krait in shallower waters.

So I think that the main body of quaggan were forced out by krait, but there were some that were forced out by the DSD directly, later on.

A matter further complicated when you get yet other quaggans attributing the same sequence of events to the risen.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The God/Dragon line up does not work even when considering twelve spheres. Who would have Life, War, Illusion?

War is so closely tied to strength and power that I think they are part of the same sphere, and it is Jormag’s. Illusion is related to dream, nightmare, hallucination, and madness. I think they all fall under Mind (Mordremoth). Life isn’t tied to a known ED, so it would go to DSD by process of elimination.

And no real way to think about the DSD. He corrupts water, sure, but nothign says that’s part of his corruption – just like how Kralkatorrik corrupts the ground and flesh but that’s not likely tied to him. Any Elder Dragon could, really, corrupt anything – we know Primordus can corrupt living beings via an interview, though we’ve yet to see such happen.

Maybe, but each (after awakening) seems to have chosen a home tied to at least one of their spheres. Primordus lives under the earth (in magma?), while Jormag lives in the frozen north. Mordremoth lives, so far as we know, in a vibrant jungle while Zhaitan lived in a land once-dead, then risen (literally). Kralkatorrik lives in the Crystal Desert. DSD is presumably awake, and chooses to live at the bottom of the ocean, so if there is a Water sphere, DSD surely has it.

I don’t see the DSD as being opposed to the other Elder Dragons either. The thing pushed the krait, quaggan, karka, and largos out of their homes (well, largos seem to be holding onto their home, but still).

You’re probably right. The EDs seem to represent the worst of whatever sphere they control, so even if DSD has Life, it’s probably a negative version of it, like having minions that have insane regenerative properties, at the expense of becoming so tumorous as to be almost entirely made of cancer.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

(Mordremoth’s mental influence has thus far only gone to “smart” sylvari – engineers, rather).

That’s assuming Aerin was under the influence of Mordremoth, otherwise you have a sample size of one. ANet hinted in their interview that this might not be correct.

GuildMag: How was Aerin corrupted by Mordremoth, having been so high up in the sky?

ArenaNet: It’s only conjecture that he was corrupted by Mordremoth, but it’s worth mentioning that he wasn’t always on the ships

Glint had other enemies (and not necessarily just Dragons, given her role in the Flameseeker prophecies), so it’s possible that Aerin was under the influence of one of them, and the attacks on her followers and her egg was the only act of revenge available after her death.

There have been hints about the White Mantle and reminders of Abaddon and the Margonites. Any remaining Mursaat might have adopted the notion that if they are going to become extinct, they might as well take the world out with them, starting with Glint’s descendants; alternately, a follower of the god of torment, nightmare, and madness has the proper skillset for driving someone with an affinity for Dream insane. Either is a decent alternative to Mordremoth as being behind the Zephyrites’ woes.

The Pale Tree’s dialogue does suggest that Aerin and Scarlet were corrupted, though.

Regarding spheres, I would point out that light has been attributed to Dwayna (in GW1 Wintersday dialogue) although this might be a misattribution.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding spheres, I would point out that light has been attributed to Dwayna (in GW1 Wintersday dialogue) although this might be a misattribution.

The priests in DR do the same.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

One word:

Storybooks

YES! So much YES!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Another thing to do: Make the Durmand Priory Basement (access to Ogden’s secret room pending) accessible to everyone via The Durmand Priory instance with a new set of books.

This as well. What I would like to see, is for us to be able to collect snippets of lore, and have them be accessible either through the Priory, or from the hero panel. It would be great if any books, notes and scroll we find on our journeys, are instantly added to this feature. For example, those small notes that were left behind at the abandoned bandit fortresses, why can’t we collect those? I’d love for stuff like that to be added to a notebook, that we can complete. That would be one more thing for us to collect, which is always fun. But it’s also great to have this big ever expanding in-game lore resource.

perilisk.1874:

There isn’t really a Light sphere in either the god or dragon category (as the presence of Darkness might suggest), and such a sphere could feasibly encompass both Truth and Crystal (in the sense that crystals often have interesting optical properties) as Aspects. While there is some overlap between Truth and Mind, truth is truth whether a mind perceives it or not.

An issue is that it isn’t “Truth” but “Knowledge”. ABaddon was Wisdom before his fall, which turned into Secrets; Kormir rose as the goddess of Truth, Knowledge, and Secrets.

Wisdom, Truth, Secrets – these are all just different aspects of “Knowledge”. Knowledge is to Air as Wisdom, Truth, and Secrets are to Wind, Sun, and Lightning. To make a comparison.

perilisk.1874:

Scarlet forged many alliances and learned many secrets, but when we actually faced her, her last major defenses were based in holomagic (ie, light).

Not entirely. Fun little noticed fact is that the Prime Hologram is powered by light energy; the Ultraviolet Hologram is powered by dark energy. Magic has thus far been classified in four ways in GW2: chaos energy, light energy, dark energy, and dragon energy. The hologram is unrelated, by all appearances, to the ED’s spheres of influence.

perilisk.1874:

Of course, there’s another angle there — crystal is also a major motif in Zephyrite magic. If Zephyrite magic is purely Air sphere, then that suggests Crystal is a subset thereof (and therefore, there is another sphere unaccounted for).

Crystals are a long-known means of storing magic. This was established back in GW1. The crystals the Zephyrites use is just a means of storing the Aspects’ magic.

Kralkatorrik’s sphere of crystal is tied more to what his corruption appears as; just as Zhaitan’s corruption appears as deathly things, and Mordremoth’s corruption appears as planty things.

I think you’re overall looking at the spheres wrong from all given indication. One sphere is how the corruption takes shape (Fire, Ice, Crystal, Death, Plant). The other is more questionable, but it seems that the second sphere is the magic that the Elder Dragons use – Kralkatorrik, for example, used storms, wind, and golden fiery breath (very akin to sunlight) to attack and corrupt, just like the aspects that use air; Jormag’s corruption of the Sons of Svanir have been called ‘losing their souls’ to him, and he establishes himself often as a spiritual figurehead, with a heavy focus on the Mists and souls (via Svanir, his consumption of Owl and attempt of Minotaur, his focus via Sons of Svanir on Havrouns).

You’re trying to relate both to their magic. But only one seems to be so.

And trying to relate Crystal to Knowledge is one huge of a stretch to try and make your theory work.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On the quaggan being driven out – there’s conflicting sources on it. Bullablopp says that the quaggans (his village at least) fled the dragons and ran into the krait in shallower waters.

So I think that the main body of quaggan were forced out by krait, but there were some that were forced out by the DSD directly, later on.

A matter further complicated when you get yet other quaggans attributing the same sequence of events to the risen.

Curious, since all other sources place their arrival in Tyria kitten years ago. Orr rose 100 years ago.

If they only surfaced 50 years ago, but fled to Tyria’s sea depths prior (before Orr’s rise), then this gives credence to the DSD rising before Jormag.

draxynnic.3719:

The Pale Tree’s dialogue does suggest that Aerin and Scarlet were corrupted, though.

As well as Taimi and the three Masters during Reunion with the Pact.

Which the interview seems to not take account for.

If Primordus=Fire+Destruction, could it be related with Balthazar(Fire) and Menzies(Destruction)?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Like I suspected, looks like DSD rose before Jormag.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If Primordus=Fire+Destruction, could it be related with Balthazar(Fire) and Menzies(Destruction)?

Grenth is also tied to Destruction. So is Balthazar.

I would argue such a lining to be coincidental like Zhaitan and Grenth both being tied to Shadow/Darkness and Death.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Curious, since all other sources place their arrival in Tyria kitten years ago. Orr rose 100 years ago.

Like I suspected, looks like DSD rose before Jormag.

It’s always a possibility, but still not definite.

It’s equally possible that those quaggans who fled from Orr’s rise were inland quaggan that weren’t part of the Unending Ocean quaggans that were pushed out by the DSD/krait.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think you’re overall looking at the spheres wrong from all given indication. One sphere is how the corruption takes shape (Fire, Ice, Crystal, Death, Plant). The other is more questionable, but it seems that the second sphere is the magic that the Elder Dragons use – Kralkatorrik, for example, used storms, wind, and golden fiery breath (very akin to sunlight) to attack and corrupt, just like the aspects that use air; Jormag’s corruption of the Sons of Svanir have been called ‘losing their souls’ to him, and he establishes himself often as a spiritual figurehead, with a heavy focus on the Mists and souls (via Svanir, his consumption of Owl and attempt of Minotaur, his focus via Sons of Svanir on Havrouns).

“I think you’re overall looking at the spheres wrong from all given indication. One sphere is how the corruption takes shape (Fire, Ice, Crystal, Death, Plant). The other is more questionable, but it seems that the second sphere is the magic that the Elder Dragons use – Kralkatorrik, for example, used storms, wind, and golden fiery breath (very akin to sunlight) to attack and corrupt, just like the aspects that use air; Jormag’s corruption of the Sons of Svanir have been called ‘losing their souls’ to him, and he establishes himself often as a spiritual figurehead, with a heavy focus on the Mists and souls (via Svanir, his consumption of Owl and attempt of Minotaur, his focus via Sons of Svanir on Havrouns).”"

The first element seems to essentially define the Dragon’s favored terrain: Depths of Tyria, Maguuma Jungle, Crystal Desert, Far Shiverpeaks, Orr, the depths of the ocean. It is more material in nature.

The second seems to be more esoteric or energetic in nature, and seems more tied to the Dragon’s personality and modus operandi. Primordus burns without bothering to corrupt, Mordremoth maddens through the Dream, Jormag seduces with promises of power, Kral uses storms and lightning. Zhaitan’s “darkness” is sort of iffy, but eh. We have seen him corrupt without killing/reanimating, through certain artifacts. I could have his spheres backwards, as he normally corrupts through death.

Could the DSD’s another sphere be “secret” since we know little about it, even the records had lost its name?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Grenth is also tied to Destruction. So is Balthazar.

I would argue such a lining to be coincidental like Zhaitan and Grenth both being tied to Shadow/Darkness and Death.

Menzies is closer to have the domain of “shadow” since many of his minions were shadow monsters.

perilisk.1874:

The first element seems to essentially define the Dragon’s favored terrain: Depths of Tyria, Maguuma Jungle, Crystal Desert, Far Shiverpeaks, Orr, the depths of the ocean. It is more material in nature.

I don’t see a relation between Death and the kingdom of Orr, which was the most holy of cities; and he was there before the human kingdom for that matter. Zhaitan waking in a place of death was purely coincidental. And like Jormag and Mordremoth seem to be doing (perhaps the DSD too), he’s remained in place.

Also, while Kralkatorrik did not wake in the Crystal Desert but flew there – he did so to kill Glint. He made his “favored terrain” on the way: the Dragonbrand. During the previous dragonrise, it seems that his territory stretched from the Crystal Sea (which wasn’t very crystalline at all), Orr, Ascalon, and the Blood Legion Homelands. Very little was very crystalline until he rose again.

I really don’t see this connection, truth be told. Half of it feels coincidental on the dragons’ part, and the other half is more that the dragons made it their preferred territory – like how Mordremoth is making the Maguuma Wastes into ‘his jungle’.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Could the DSD’s another sphere be “secret” since we know little about it, even the records had lost its name?

I doubt it. Maybe “Knowledge”, but “Secrets” seems a bit too specific, and the reasoning is just silly. The amount of knowledge we have on an Elder Dragon shouldn’t be related to its spheres of influence – theoretically.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Grenth is also tied to Destruction. So is Balthazar.

I would argue such a lining to be coincidental like Zhaitan and Grenth both being tied to Shadow/Darkness and Death.

Menzies is closer to have the domain of “shadow” since many of his minions were shadow monsters.

That’d be like saying Balthazar had the domain ofs pirits, because his personal army, the Eternals, were ghosts.

The Shadow Army are things called “Nightmares” – which are, by all little lore we have on them, evil souls. I don’t think there’s a relation between Menzies and Shadow.

Grenth, however, is outright an explicitly called the god of darkness (alongside ice and death; the rest are just attributes to him: judgment, ethics, destruction, etc.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan waking in a place of death was purely coincidental.

I completely agree, but the fact that he stayed there was probably due to the abundance of deathyness. Whatever Orr used to be, it was a land filled with inexplicably well-preserved corpses when Zhaitan awoke.

Also, while Kralkatorrik did not wake in the Crystal Desert but flew there – he did so to kill Glint.

That doesn’t prove anything, since as the Crystal Dragon’s champion, Glint would have probably felt the same affinity for the Crystal Desert as Kralkatorrik himself. At any rate, he could have easily returned to Ascalon if he was just there to deal with Glint.

I really don’t see this connection, truth be told. Half of it feels coincidental on the dragons’ part, and the other half is more that the dragons made it their preferred territory – like how Mordremoth is making the Maguuma Wastes into ‘his jungle’.

I’m not seeing that, unless by “jungle” you mean “desert filled with Mordrem and giant vines which may be part of the body of Mordremoth himself”.

perilisk.1874:

I really don’t see this connection, truth be told. Half of it feels coincidental on the dragons’ part, and the other half is more that the dragons made it their preferred territory – like how Mordremoth is making the Maguuma Wastes into ‘his jungle’.

I’m not seeing that, unless by “jungle” you mean “desert filled with Mordrem and giant vines which may be part of the body of Mordremoth himself”.

Trahearne, and maybe a couple others, refer to “his jungle” as spreading. I assume they mean the vines, but maybe there’s some variation farther behind the front line. We’ll likely find out Tuesday.

Regarding Zhaitan and shadows… It could be that the link is through fear and despair. Risen often try to engage in mindgames to provoke one or both, and somebody at the moment of death is probably feeling a significant degree of despair. This would also explain why Orr was such a smorgasboard – it’s not only a place where lot’s of people died, it’s a place where lots of people died while in a state of despair.

It also ties in to Kellach – his fear for the Queen lead him to acquire the artifact in the first place, and then he was driven by fear for himself.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

The Pale Tree’s dialogue does suggest that Aerin and Scarlet were corrupted, though.

As well as Taimi and the three Masters during Reunion with the Pact.

Which the interview seems to not take account for.

Valid point. Of the three, I’d say that the Pale Tree is the least likely to be an ‘unreliable narrator’, though. Mind you, she’s been wrong before, and it’s a plot point that both were disconnected from the Dream – she may just be surmising like everyone else.

perilisk.1874:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan waking in a place of death was purely coincidental.

I completely agree, but the fact that he stayed there was probably due to the abundance of deathyness. Whatever Orr used to be, it was a land filled with inexplicably well-preserved corpses when Zhaitan awoke.

Well, sure, but if he woke up on top of a living kingdom, who’s to say he wouldn’t have stayed there still?

Orr was more than a place with an “abundance of deathyness” – it also housed Bloodstone shards and a large variety of other magical artifacts – both from the Six Gods’ collection days, and from the human kingdoms’ days – as well as the naturally very magical Artesian Waters.

Orr was – ‘deathyness’ or not – a buffet for an Elder Dragon. ANY Elder Dragon wouldn’t leave that spot unless forced to.

Not very compelling.

perilisk.1874:

That doesn’t prove anything, since as the Crystal Dragon’s champion, Glint would have probably felt the same affinity for the Crystal Desert as Kralkatorrik himself. At any rate, he could have easily returned to Ascalon if he was just there to deal with Glint.

It is explained in Edge of Destiny that she remained in the Crystal Desert to collect Kralkatorrik’s crystalline green blood over the centuries.

Doesn’t sound like something related to an affinity of sand and desert…

perilisk.1874:

I’m not seeing that, unless by “jungle” you mean “desert filled with Mordrem and giant vines which may be part of the body of Mordremoth himself”.

Go to the western edge of The Silverwastes; while most is vines, there’s a lot of vegetation in general there, overwhelmingly so. Or to paraphrase the Tactician in Camp Resolve (where Trahearne is in the story instance): Mordremoth makes jungles with his corruption. Part of the heavy vegetation can only be seen in the ending cinematic of Caithe’s Reconnaissance Squad – which shows a giant flower-like thing that is, apparently, a Mordrem production plant (heh).

draxynnic.3719:

Valid point. Of the three, I’d say that the Pale Tree is the least likely to be an ‘unreliable narrator’, though. Mind you, she’s been wrong before, and it’s a plot point that both were disconnected from the Dream – she may just be surmising like everyone else.

Eh…

The Pale Tree has become increasingly suspect as of late. Why not inform others that Mordremoth was awake? And she apparently had some insight on The All (her warnings to Ceara, being about “the forces that created us”, sounds like she means The All) yet seemingly knowing the importance of the dragons, seek their deaths…

I’m not trusting the Pale Tree any further than I can throw her.

Trahearne suspected that someone let the Mordrem in… I think she did – not as a minion of Mordremoth, but a risk to her self to make the others kill the dragons faster. Kind of a Xanatos Gambit if you will.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Ghosts of Fort Salma
In all honesty, I didn’t like this instance.

• Why were the ghosts mistaking players and Campbell as Mordrem? The only other ghosts that mistake living beings for something else would be Foefire ghosts, and this is an explicitly stated UNIQUE aspect of the Foefire – alongside their returning irregardless and personality changes. The closest we get are a small handful of ghosts who vehemently deny being a ghost due to hysteria – but they still view living beings as living beings (until the hysteria brought by stating they’re a ghost is brought to a new high, like Watchman Pramas ). So this makes no sense to me. It feels like they felt like the instance – which itself feels like a side-quest and not relevant to the plot – needed combat and so slapped this situation in. Could have at least made Belinda a fight…

Since one of Mordremoth’s sphere of influence is mind can that be why they attacked us?

perilisk.1874:

It could be a coincidence, but the Asura seem to have an affinity for Air (note the floating cities) and Light (per the aforementioned connection between the colleges, holomagic, and the facet of Light)…

The asura much prefer being underground, actually. There just isn’t enough room for them down there anymore. It’s been pointed out that they strongly dislike the surface itself, and all the uncontrollable things that live on it. If they can’t dig under that chaos, then they will hover above it.

If you’re looking for a connection to air, it would be the tengu. Why assume the races have to follow the pattern of six units matching twelves spheres, when we have an overabundance of races? Don’t forget the jotun, dwarves, dredge, skritt, quaggan, and so on.

It’s also interesting to note that there could be more controllable elements than there are spheres to manipulate them. The spheres could be a junction between a god and a dragon, who filter the magic back and forth between them via the sphere. A god and dragon would only need to fully share one aspect for the binding to work, with the other aspect of each being determined by their personal attributes.

Take Death for example. Zhaitan has held this aspect and Shadow for a long, long time. On the other side of the sphere, we’ve seen two gods of Death. Grenth’s second aspect is cold, but it’s not shared with Dhuum or Zhaitan. When Grenth took over from Dhuum, he connected easily with the Death aspect Zhaitan was reflecting, but the attribute he held closest to that was Cold, so that became his second to ensure compatibility with Zhaitan. If Zhaitan gets replaced with another dragon, it might adopt Cold as its primary to link with Grenth, but then something like Rebirth or Plague or Silence in place of Death.

Then if Grenth gets replaced, we might have a goddess of Silence and Night, and the sphere itself has been almost completely changed.

As for DSD, my penny is on Illusion or Chaos. Lyssa may be referred to as the goddess of Illusion and Beauty, but I’m pretty sure that the Beauty is just a result of Illusion. Remember that mesmers use Chaos magic, and are connected to Lyssa. Also that Chaos magic is confirmed to flowing through Tyria in a leyline. I’m pretty sure Chaos is actually her second aspect, but it’s cleverly masked by illusions.

Personally, I don’t think either Beauty OR Illusions are among her primary aspects. They’re both pretty narrow elements that can fit under other characteristics such as Inspiration, Deception, Emotion or possibly even Mind (if we consider Mind to relate to how the mind actually works, rather than knowledge which could be contained within the mind or in an inanimate book). Certainly, when a goddess is proclaiming herself as the goddess of Beauty and Illusions when she clearly holds influence on many things well outside those relatively narrow definitions, one has to wonder if those ‘public’ domains may be another illusion from the mask-wearing goddess.

She’s also noted in some circles as having influence over luck, a chaotic phenomenon, so I think chaos or something like that has to be one of her core domains. The other I’m pretty sure is concerned with how the mind works in some fashion. In fact, come to think on it, depending on how much the norn know about Lyssa’s true nature it wouldn’t surprise me if the norn name for her is simply Thought. (If they don’t know her well enough to pick that, it’d probably be Deception.)

@Gulesave: An interesting concept, but I disagree. Both cases of godhood succession we see deal with the most major of aspects being passed down, though the interpretation on it changes. Dhuum and Grenth were Death – Abaddon and Kormir were Knowledge. So I don’t think that a successor of Grenth can become a god(dess) of silence and night – there’s just no relation to death in that.

@Drax: War is just as “narrow” as Illusions, in my opinion. While the ‘lesser attributed’ characteristics that are akin to war – combat, conflict, strife – are much more general. I don’t think the gods really need to be “general” in their aspects, though their aspects can be tied directly to general concepts.

This is why I don’t buy your argument – much repeated as of late. Not all of the gods have such wide-spanding aspects like Life, Nature, and Death. “Wisdom,” “Secrets,” and “Truth” are the public aspects, tied to Knowledge, but are very narrow; War is rather narrow, despite being the public aspect. I don’t think a wide and general aspect is needed.

To be honest, I think ‘War’ is just the most obvious facet of a broader domain as well – something like ‘Competition’ instead (war being a particularly deadly and destructive form of competition).

My general contention is that if we’re defining each deity by a few key elements, those key elements should span all the facets of that deity. ‘Beauty and Illusion’ don’t even come close to doing that for Lyssa. Plus, in a world of unreliable narrators and given Lyssa’s general proclivity to deception, I really don’t think it’s a safe assumption at all that anything related to her should be taken at face value.