Guild Wars 2

Shiren.9532:

That wouldn’t make much sense.

Never said it did.

I’m just trying to figure out the clusterkitten that they made.

Shiren.9532:

Malomedies didn’t look like he had recently recovered from being experimented on, he looked as he does today.

This I’m just going to go “mechanics!”

Cadeyrn states that he was only awake for a few months. In Dream and Nightmare blog post, Cadeyrn was present when Malomedies was returned. So Malomedies couldn’t have been back to the Grove for more than just a few months. Naturally, he should be still recovering from near-fatal wounds that he had when brought back.

Shiren.9532:

That’s a hard sell imo.

But that’s where the continuity error is, since Malomedies never says that Riannoc is alive.

Basically, the error lies either in Malomedies’ perception (which isn’t a retcon but poorly explained – like Knut’s “I remember when Jormag awoke” line, which was metaphorical and not literal, but everyone and their grandmother took it to be literal; or like suddenly knowing Mordremoth’s name), or when the others found out about his death (which is a retcon), or the order of death (which is a retcon), or is just a plain simple oversight and forgetting of one of the biggest aspects of their pet race’s lore (which is not a retcon, and is likely going to get a stealth fix like all the other dialogue fixes I’ve been seeing getting stealth fixed).

Shiren.9532:

Riannoc’s death isn’t supposed to be a mystery (the fact that it happened, not how it happened). It’s supposed to be a known event, felt by the sylvari. We know in the Personal Story that the events surrounding it are a mystery but that they did know he died. If they didn’t know from the moment he died (and the empathic impact he had on the Dream as a result) that he was dead, what possible explanation would they have for realising he was dead later?

I’m aware of this.

Apparently whomever wrote Malomedies’ dialogue is not.

That, or Anet’s becoming Blizzard with writing their lore on toilet paper.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m aware of this.

Apparently whomever wrote Malomedies’ dialogue is not.

While it’s almost certainly a continuity error, I suppose if they are going to put on a brave face and march forward instead of rewriting it in shame, the most plausible explanation is that the Sylvari felt it when the Dream felt it, which is not precisely the same thing as when it happened, and with the Dream being dreamlike and mysterious, the gap can just be handwaved away. With the secondborn, in contrast, it seems like they actual physically saw their deaths, or at least their bodies.

Alternatively, take an uglier view of Sylvari society (building on the debate between Trahearne and Wynne about what to call the secondborn) and say that Riannoc was objectively not the first Sylvari to die, he’s just remembered that way because the secondborn who preceded him in death were basically nobodies and second-class citizens of the Dream. Sort of like a few kids from the wrong side of the tracks get killed, you get a blurb in the paper, but a celebrity dies and everyone can remember where they were when they heard the news.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…(which is not a retcon, and is likely going to get a stealth fix like all the other dialogue fixes I’ve been seeing getting stealth fixed).

I’m curious. What piece of content got that treatment?

Rhaegar.1203:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…(which is not a retcon, and is likely going to get a stealth fix like all the other dialogue fixes I’ve been seeing getting stealth fixed).

I’m curious. What piece of content got that treatment?

Lots. Some were simple typos, but others like the DR statue of Grenth was fully rewritten (which was changed last year in the summer).

The objects added in F&F3 were introduced half-done and fixed in a latter update. The ‘A Dragon Primer’ in the DP library (added with E1) had a typo of listing two points as 8, ending with a point 9, but now has the correct numbering up to 10.

All of these were stealth updates to dialogue. The statue is the most upfront case of changing lore, the rest tends to be typo fixing. But none ever stated in the update notes.

Oh, oh, I see. Thought they would be more like, actual fixes to something that was incorrect information, not just typos.

Thanks!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lots. Some were simple typos, but others like the DR statue of Grenth was fully rewritten (which was changed last year in the summer).

The objects added in F&F3 were introduced half-done and fixed in a latter update. The ‘A Dragon Primer’ in the DP library (added with E1) had a typo of listing two points as 8, ending with a point 9, but now has the correct numbering up to 10.

All of these were stealth updates to dialogue. The statue is the most upfront case of changing lore, the rest tends to be typo fixing. But none ever stated in the update notes.

Now I’m curious as to what the statue used to read. o.O

Gryphon.2875:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lots. Some were simple typos, but others like the DR statue of Grenth was fully rewritten (which was changed last year in the summer).

The objects added in F&F3 were introduced half-done and fixed in a latter update. The ‘A Dragon Primer’ in the DP library (added with E1) had a typo of listing two points as 8, ending with a point 9, but now has the correct numbering up to 10.

All of these were stealth updates to dialogue. The statue is the most upfront case of changing lore, the rest tends to be typo fixing. But none ever stated in the update notes.

Now I’m curious as to what the statue used to read. o.O

Nothing too different. Important change wasn’t the quote, but the author- it was Malchor before, now it’s Desmina, lending credence to the theory Malchor was Grenth’s father.

Both old and current should be on the wiki.

Original was a quote from Malchor. This got changed to a quote from Desmina that is very similar. The change of name gave implication of the Malchor-is-Grenth’s-dad is true. That would be a case of a fix that wasn’t a typo.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Gryphon.2875:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lots. Some were simple typos, but others like the DR statue of Grenth was fully rewritten (which was changed last year in the summer).

The objects added in F&F3 were introduced half-done and fixed in a latter update. The ‘A Dragon Primer’ in the DP library (added with E1) had a typo of listing two points as 8, ending with a point 9, but now has the correct numbering up to 10.

All of these were stealth updates to dialogue. The statue is the most upfront case of changing lore, the rest tends to be typo fixing. But none ever stated in the update notes.

Now I’m curious as to what the statue used to read. o.O

Nothing too different. Important change wasn’t the quote, but the author- it was Malchor before, now it’s Desmina, lending credence to the theory Malchor was Grenth’s father.

It’s interesting how whenever a god or dragon dies, there’s always another to take it’s place. I wonder if the gods have returned to their place of origin to deal with issues there. Perhaps instead of hibernating as dragons do, gods take vacations.

Thanks for answering that concern.

However I got a follow up question. Will you only fix things that are currently active, or will you go back to old stuff as well?
You mentioned that the Mordremoth reveal could have been handled better (I just mention it, because it was the first thing that came into my head. I don`t want to talk into your job. There were suggestions like placing a book on the eldar dragons in Scarlet`s room or an aditional dialog).

I agree that the Riannoc situation is headscratching, however I have to wonder (and no offense to the high level lore buffs), if that kind of high class lore is the priority here?

Of course we want consistency and every change is highly apreaciated, but how are these things determiated? Is there a hirarchy of fixes based on how relevant they are, or is it simply a time/cost effort?

Thanks for the developer response.

Thanks for the honesty (and clarification); in the end, most of us criticize because we want the game to achieve a higher level of quality.

Outstanding, really nice to hear this from an official source.

It’s also very good to know the team takes this kind of thing seriously enough to actually patch it. You get faith points!

BobbyStein.2315:

I’d like to address the continuity issue in the Newly Awakened story instance of episode 7. In it, players have a conversation with Malomedies where he says, “We went so long without losing one of our own, but three of our newly awakened have been killed already. This is unacceptable.” He then goes on to say about Riannoc, “I worry about Riannoc. He’s going so far from home. What if he never returns?”

As some have helpfully pointed out, this is at odds with Caithe’s dialog in the Personal Story, where she mentions, “Riannoc was the first sylvari to meet death. We never knew what happened…” This is an error (a.k.a. text bug) that was introduced during the development of episode 7 and was not caught by anyone on the team or in our playtest groups. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. We’re going to fix the conversation text in episode 7 in an upcoming patch so that it is in line with the Personal Story.

On a related note, I should clarify this bit of dialog from the Personal Story, where Caithe says, “…We all felt it when he [Riannoc] died. It was like a part of the Dream was torn away—but we never knew why. Or how.” The sylvari did not feel Riannoc’s death as it happened, but reacted emotionally once they found out about it (such as when a loved one is lost). Caithe is speaking figuratively, not literally, here.

As always, thanks for playing and for sharing your feedback.

I’m glad to hear the dialogue will be altered. I’m curious though, if Riannoc’s death was not “felt”(it sounds like Caithe was saying that – “Caithe: We all felt it when he died. It was like a part of the Dream was torn away—but we never knew why. Or how.”) when it happened, and his death was a mystery (no-one knew how he died, only that he died) how did the sylvari discover he was dead? Wouldn’t almost every method of discovering his death result in knowledge that Mazdak had killed him, or at least remove a great deal of the mystery?

I notice you specifically reference Caithe’s dialogue in game but didn’t recognise the lore story from the website. Is that no longer canon? It raises another potential issue with the asura experimenting on sylvari. After Malomedies is returned to the sylvari, Cadeyrn wants revenge but Aife says the asura offered peace.

“The asura have offered peace. They did not realize that he… They thought he was simply another of the strange plants of the deep Maguuma, mimicking sentience,” Aife told them. “When they realized he was truly aware, they returned him to us."

This characterisation of the asura is at odds with Vorpp and the Arcane Eye’s behaviour in the Living Story instance. It takes place chronologically after Malomedies is returned to the sylvari (and thus after Aife claims the asura “offered peace” and suggests the asura changed their minds after they realised he was “truly aware”) but Vorpp and his asura allies experiment on sylvari as if peace was never offered and Vorp specifically disregards obvious signs of self awareness from Canach and the other captives. If they had learned what Malomedies was and were moral enough to return him to his people, why would they soon afterwards begin experimenting on (and killing) other sylvari?

Is Dream and Nightmare canon? What about the other non-game sources?

That is because Vorpp and his crew were inquest. It states it in the story instance that they were inquest. Meaning that the inquest were already a divided subgroup then at the time – for how long though has been uncertain. Maybe after they came up from the underground. After all the Inquest is a large krewe working towards their own goals.

Happy to see the mistake patched.

Sarasv.8962:

That is because Vorpp and his crew were inquest. It states it in the story instance that they were inquest. Meaning that the inquest were already a divided subgroup then at the time – for how long though has been uncertain. Maybe after they came up from the underground. After all the Inquest is a large krewe working towards their own goals.

No, they state that the place is used by the Inquest in the present – as in now, 1327 A.E., 22 or 23 years after Vorpp’s experiment. What we see in the past are clearly labeled as college asura (Statics, iirc), not Inquest.

Sarasv.8962:

That is because Vorpp and his crew were inquest. It states it in the story instance that they were inquest. Meaning that the inquest were already a divided subgroup then at the time – for how long though has been uncertain. Maybe after they came up from the underground. After all the Inquest is a large krewe working towards their own goals.

No, modern asura there are Inquest. If you tell Marjory your vision fought asura, she thinks Inquest and you correct her.

You fight Statics college asura and the Arcane Eye.

But the Arcane Eye is well known for dirty activities, just a bit more moral than the Inquest.

Sarasv is possibly not so wrong. Peter Fries wrote on his twitter a long time ago that Vorpp used to be Inquest. It doesn’t say when, he just answered “not anymore” in regards to the question whether Vorpp was part of them.

However, my guess:
By the time of the vision, the Inquest just wasn’t formally established yet. That’s why we see Statics college asura do experiments that obviously fall into the morally questionable Inquest-side of the scale. There simply wasn’t a line to separate ‘Inquest’ and non-Inquest, there were only moral and immoral Asura.

That would kinda explain Mr. Fries’ twitter statement and why Asura were still experimenting on Sylvari after their first encounter. It would also make sense to refer to the Asura who experimented on Malomedies as Inquest in retrospect even if they weren’t part of the Inquest yet when it happened. @@_@@ /2 cents

BobbyStein.2315:

I’d like to address the continuity issue in the Newly Awakened story instance of episode 7. In it, players have a conversation with Malomedies where he says, “We went so long without losing one of our own, but three of our newly awakened have been killed already. This is unacceptable.” He then goes on to say about Riannoc, “I worry about Riannoc. He’s going so far from home. What if he never returns?”

As some have helpfully pointed out, this is at odds with Caithe’s dialog in the Personal Story, where she mentions, “Riannoc was the first sylvari to meet death. We never knew what happened…” This is an error (a.k.a. text bug) that was introduced during the development of episode 7 and was not caught by anyone on the team or in our playtest groups. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. We’re going to fix the conversation text in episode 7 in an upcoming patch so that it is in line with the Personal Story.

On a related note, I should clarify this bit of dialog from the Personal Story, where Caithe says, “…We all felt it when he [Riannoc] died. It was like a part of the Dream was torn away—but we never knew why. Or how.” The sylvari did not feel Riannoc’s death as it happened, but reacted emotionally once they found out about it (such as when a loved one is lost). Caithe is speaking figuratively, not literally, here.

As always, thanks for playing and for sharing your feedback.

This, or something that explains this, should be on the wiki

If that’s the case that instance is even more interesting because it adds background context for the formation of the Nightmare Court (the asura experiments on Malomedies and presumably other sylvari) by motivating Cadeyrn to challenge Ventari’s teachings but it also adds background context for the Inquest. If Aife’s statement is still canon (that the asura apologise for experimenting on Malomedies and now view sylvari as sentient beings that have right) then Vorpp and his Arcane Eye asura might be the Cadeyrn/Shadowy Bulwark of the sylvari – the early origins of the Inquest, straying from the moral limitations of the mainstream. Apparently Kudu was the asura that experimented on Malomedies, if he was unhappy with the moral decision to stop experimentation on sylvari he might have other like-minded asura (like Vorpp and his allies) that continued experimentation before founding the Inquest.

Maybe the instance where Canach is being experimented on with other sylvari takes place before the Inquest were known as the Inquest? Experimentation on sentient beings like sylvari could be one of the debates that forged the Inquest.

I honestly know very little about Inquest/asuran lore compared to sylvari (I find the later more interesting). The thing about Vorpp being former Inquest is that it raises questions relating to something Jeff Grubb said.

Jeff Grubb: Well, you talk about being a krewe, the krewe being the basic unit of, you have a prop, you bring a bunch of Asura together for a krewe, and you disperse them—it’s like movie production. The Inquest, at its core, is a method by which you organize so everybody gets knowledge. Which is to say, the Inquest gets knowledge. And in order to do that, they’ve made some major changes to the way Asura function. You no longer are working on your project, you’re working on part of a project that we tell you to. You join us, you’re part of the group, you’ve got the eternal NDA, you don’t leave the Inquest, you belong to us, we will recruit you, we may recruit you even if you don’t want to be recruited. – http://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-asura-interview-part-two-love-and-inquest/

Emphasis is mine. If you can’t leave the Inquest, that implies (to me) that if Vorpp “saw the error in his ways” and wanted to leave, I imagine the Inquest wouldn’t be too happy (either he knows things about them they don’t want to get out, or they want to keep up appearances of “you don’t leave” for other members). That’s assuming Vorpp is Inquest.

Had Phlunt been the asura experimenting on syvlari I wouldn’t have thought twice about it. Seeing Vorpp in there seemed strange to me because he didn’t seem like Inquest in his past appearances – he actually helps us on more than one occasion, doesn’t show unusual disdain for sylvari or their right to life, and Rata Sum decided he was a legitimate candidate to send as a political Emissary to the Queen’s Jubilee. If I was choosing diplomats I wouldn’t choose an alleged former Inquest who experimented on and killed sylvari after my race had made peace with them. He seems like one of the worst candidates to send as an ambassador.

In story terms, I don’t think the rest of Vorpp’s history will be as interesting as what happens the next time he meets Canach. I’d lay a bet that it will happen and it will be more interesting if Vorpp is one of the ‘good guys’ now.

I found much of the story in this recent episode quite enjoyable as they helped shed light on some of the lore in-game and giving us a glimpse of the way things were. It was nice seeing several named Menders from Caledon Forest and the Grove mending to the Pale Tree in the first instance, as well as finally seeing what Fiana looked like; that was a very positive surprise because I always liked that little story connected to the Revered Terebinth.

Seeing so many half-naked sylvari in one instance did make me smile, particularly when it was paired up by the pretty “Newly Awakened” music cue which made me think of a lullaby being sung to a baby in the cradle, perfect symbolism for the Awakened who are tabula rasa and yet to be molded by their experiences. Seeing a half-naked Ceara, however, was almost nightmare-inducing to me, but that cameo did add to the memorability of the instance.

It was interesting to me, though, how Ceara’s hairdo was different here; she had blooming flowers as a Newly Awakened instead of those “cones” we were used to seeing in her hair. That, added to similar “cones” being found in her room in Prosperity in Episode 1 and the comment on it (Rox: At least now we know where she got the inspiration for that weird hairdo.), make me wonder if there’s some tie-in between that and her corruption.

Wasn’t it mentioned somewhere that she may have been “influenced” even before she stepped into Omadd’s machine? If so, the “cone” might be part of solving that puzzle. The hologram did show a cone-haired Ceara before she became Scarlet (unless that cone hair was simply a gameplay mechanic and they didn’t have pre-Scarlet Ceara model ready yet). Either way, when combined with what Shiren posted elsewhere about the whole flood idea in Silverwastes and a possible champion of Mordremoth beneath the ground (and Ceara having traversed that area), it could have some interesting implications. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens.

It was nice to see Cadeyrn have some of the spotlight in this release as his lore wasn’t really utilized that well during vanilla game. I still feel sorry for the poor guy’s glorified cameo and untimely demise in Twilight Arbor story mode when his lore as the Nightmare Court’s founder gave him so much more weight, and I wish he could resurface later having only been “mostly dead” to continue fighting against us even if that’s unlikely at this stage.

Cadeyrn’s interactions with Faolain in this episode (the talk about the meeting, and Cadeyrn and company arriving to assist Faolain with retrieving Wynne) seem to imply that the two were already plotting to plant the seeds of a proto-Nightmare Court by this time. Will this mean that Cadeyrn’s status as a founder of NC in the short story will be mildly retconned later on if/once we learn more of the specifics of these shadowy dealings, could Faolain have actually been the shadowy mastermind using Cadeyrn as her front before publicly announcing herself as NC and taking over the Court for reals as she dropped her facade? The lore bit about Faolain taking Cadeyrn’s place in the Court did always strike me as interesting considering how Cadeyrn wasn’t all that happy about Firstborn attitude based on the short story, and yet here he doesn’t seem to mind dancing to Faolain’s tune.

And Faolain…I was so happy to see her at long last after reading all these speculations. As she’s one of the few villains who has survived encounters with the PC, it was nice to see her even if only in flashback form, which did tell us a bit more about her character. I was somewhat surprised to see her rebellious and arrogant streak so soon even before she fell into Nightmare but considering how much the story jumped forward in time between instances, it’s understandable. At least it showed us what kind of person she was and what will lead her to becoming the Grand Duchess in the future.

It would’ve been nice to see her a bit more endearing at times, though, to balance out her emotional manipulation of Caithe and Wynne, so we could’ve seen more of the Faolain Caithe fell in love with. I was also somewhat disappointed to not hear any mention of “dearheart” in the story although I suppose that might’ve been a term Faolain only came up with after she and Caithe had broken up to use as an emotional trigger.

(continued in next post)

Music-wise it’s interesting to me how one of the new tracks used in the episode is called “Nightmare Court”, yet I only heard snippets of it in the actual instance. Thankfully the whole thing has been uploaded to anet’s soundcloud page so one can hear it in all its glory. The theme itself is rather seedy (pun intended) in atmosphere with its seductive tones (as fitting the Court’s modus operandi with some sylvari, as well as Faolain’s emotional manipulations). but then halfway through it starts sounding melodramatic and, one could say almost tragic with orchestral swells. Is this some musical foreshadowing of the ultimate tragedy of the Court, if the “They belong to the dragon now” promo image foreshadows the Court becoming Mordy’s minions via the influence from Nightmare which the Shadow of the Dragon seems to be tied to (assuming that’s what’s going to happen and it’s not just a very subtle red herring at work)?

Considering how music has been used earlier in Living Story to foreshadow events to come (Scarlet’s mischievous motif morphing into a tragic and menacing dirge by the time of “Battle on the Breachmaker”), I wouldn’t count out that there may be some foreshadowing going on in here with the Court as the devs tend to be sneaky with their clues like that. Here’s to hoping we’ll hear more of this type of interesting music in episodes to come. So far most of Season 2’s tracks have been very enjoyable, and I love the use of a real orchestra which really adds life to the tracks which no fine sampled synths can ever fully replicate.

It was nice seeing Wynne being introduced and how quickly her character was established. The buildup, even if it was a bit sketchy at times writing-wise, did get the point across with nice hints and foreshadowings of things to come. The centraur massacre scene was heartbreaking to me, and I want to give kudos to the team for pulling it off and going to as dark an area (combined with the sylvari torture scene with asura) for a game with this rating.

Admittedly the bit with the PC and Marjory conversing about it afterwards could’ve used some additions and edits as some have pointed out, but overall I found this bit of lore fascinating and showing us some of the darker things Caithe has had to do. The fact that Wynne seems to have Caithe’s present-day hairstyle adds a nice bit of speculation and buildup for the upcoming episode, and I like that attention to detail as the last thing I expected for GW2 lore was for Caithe’s hairdo to ever play a role in the story.

I liked the stealthy elements with the asura bit, and I enjoyed trying to figure out movements as Caithe and how her skills had some differences compared to some of the “ordinary” thief skills. It’s been nice how the devs have tried to include different types of gameplay throughout Season 2 by following up on what S1 did with the likes of SAB and Tower of Nightmares. The stealth bit, using LW clues scattered throughout out of instance world map (tracking down Aspect Masters etc.), the labyrinth, the boss battles and so forth add variety to the core gameplay, which I gladly welcome as it shows the devs are willing to experiment on stuff and flesh out the world with activities.

I also found the map-wide jumping puzzle in this update both frustrating and fun at the same time; trying to find the proper way to proceed in this lengthy puzzle can make one scratch one’s head at times, but thankfully the marker system lets one not to start the puzzle from the very beginning, so that makes it manageable and still challenging enough. As Josh Foreman noted in the recent Points of Interest episode, it’s fun to see a place you’re familiar with from another angle (in this case looking down on the Silverwastes mordrem fort madness from the cliffs above), so big thanks to him for giving us this feeling.

(continued in next post)

The recent discussions on Vorpp and the Inquest have been quite intriguing. When I first entered the instance, I was somewhat expecting to perhaps see proto-Inquest Kudu as the final boss, considering his involvement with sylvari torture based on lore. Imagine my delight when the chief torturer turned out to be Vorpp, a face from Season 1 of Living Story, the asura who aided us against Scarlet during the Queen’s Jubilee. It added some moral greyness to the asura (not that we haven’t seen it before in Personal Story among other things, but it never hurts to see more of it), and it made me wonder if Vorpp is going to be playing a role later in the story in some form or another, maybe some interaction between him, Canach, Caithe and Faolain considering their history? Imagine if Faolain were to finally have her revenge on Vorpp after all these years; it could be a truly terrifying moment if written with enough care. It’s also amusing to me that back then Faolain was still one of the “good” guys whereas Vorpp was “evil”, and in the present day their roles have reversed with Faolain committing despicable crimes while Vorpp helped us in the fight against Scarlet.

If Vorpp was part of a proto-Inquest, perhaps he was able to leave them because by that time the Inquest hadn’t been fully formed yet and thus the “you can’t leave Inquest” rule wasn’t yet in use. Perhaps him leaving in the first place might’ve led to Kudu and company making that rule later specifically to prevent any other geniuses from leaving the Inquest in the future?

Granted, the whole “experimenting on sylvari” thing and Vorpp becoming an emissary does seem rather odd, but perhaps he’d made amends with the sylvari afterwards for all we know or been otherwise convincing enough for the Arcane Council to let him have that position? It’s not like the Council doesn’t have ties to the Inquest already with one of the Inquest representatives stationed there with his cronies, so having ex-Inquest as an emissary, especially if said person has renounced his former ways, could be plausible in that context. I wonder if Vorpp can still be found in the camp outside Lion’s Arch and if he has additional dialogue, or if we can confront him about his involvement in the torture later. It would be a shame to not at least bring up the subject with him just to see his reaction to us knowing his dirty past.

Also, thanks for clearing up that sylvari lore bit, Bobby. I, too, was somewhat confused by it, so it’s nice to see it’s being addressed.

Nice catch, Kossage! I’d completely forgotten Vorpp is there. He’s still around, but alas, has no dialogue at all.

Playing it through again, the council of the firstborn seems to make little sense, even within itself. The firstborn are there to discuss how to guide their siblings but they don’t include the Pale Tree, even though she is the mother, spiritual advisor, protector, home, etc to all of them. If they are deliberately excluding her then holding the meeting in the middle of the Pale Tree seems a bit silly.

Then we come to timing of their discussion. The newborn Sylvari will have been growing in pods for a long time and the firstborn only start wondering how to guide them after they’re come out? That’s even forgetting Caedryn who has been alive for months according to the dialogue. It just isn’t plausible that these people are having this discussion with that dialogue at that time.

As things stood before (although a lot of this is built upon the Dream and Nightmare article, which I guess is in an undefined place in the canon now) the Pale Tree communicated directly and telepathically with the firstborn. Just because an Avatar that exists solely for visitors (i.e. non-sylvari, so it likely didn’t even exist at that point) wasn’t present doesn’t mean the Tree was excluded from the conversation. I suspect she just didn’t have anything to add- she’s always been portrayed as a very hands-off parent.

As for the timing, they did cite the deaths of several secondborn as a reason (I guess we’ll see whether that’s removed by the fix). It could just be that it didn’t occur to them that the saplings needed guidance until that point.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I suspect she just didn’t have anything to add- she’s always been portrayed as a very hands-off parent.

She’s showing no parenting at all at that moment.

Stooperdale.3560:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I suspect she just didn’t have anything to add- she’s always been portrayed as a very hands-off parent.

She’s showing no parenting at all at that moment.

Isn’t that par for the course? This is the same entity that didn’t feel the need to tell us about Mordremoth until it had already spread across the continent.

The episode was enjoyable enough. I loved learning more of the Asura and Sylvari history, even with the mistakes made and some of the added confusion.

Learning Caithe’s skills was odd and got me killed a couple of times. After having to restart the last instance several times to get the achievements, I didn’t even need any added motivation to kill the centaurs.

Jumping on sticks and ropes to get badges isn’t improving my mood either, even though the actual jumping puzzle is really fun.

I haven’t played the first Guild Wars game very much, so I don’t know a lot about Mamnoon Lagoon, but Mad Queen Malafide was kind enough to point it out to me when her and Daniel Frozenwind. Then we noticed how the green spot that was left of it on the unrevealed map was very close to the door. When I went there, I noticed that the ground in front of it has a blue pulsating effect at night. I wonder what that is about, I haven’t seen anyone mention it.

Stooperdale.3560:

Playing it through again, the council of the firstborn seems to make little sense, even within itself. The firstborn are there to discuss how to guide their siblings but they don’t include the Pale Tree, even though she is the mother, spiritual advisor, protector, home, etc to all of them. If they are deliberately excluding her then holding the meeting in the middle of the Pale Tree seems a bit silly.

Then we come to timing of their discussion. The newborn Sylvari will have been growing in pods for a long time and the firstborn only start wondering how to guide them after they’re come out? That’s even forgetting Caedryn who has been alive for months according to the dialogue. It just isn’t plausible that these people are having this discussion with that dialogue at that time.

Dream and Nightmare shows that the Pale Tree was very distanced in the early days of sylvari life – when the Secondborn were the ones being born still.

This is what resulted in Caithe’s words to Cadeyrn that caused him to create the Nightmare Court:

“Why should she care? She has thousands of children now, Cadeyrn. You are either firstborn…or you are simply sylvari.”

You can think of sylvari culture in the early days similar to a constitutional monarchy that utilized a Japanese Emperor kind of figurehead. You’d have the ultimate leader (Pale Tree in this case) who remained well known but often in the shadows, out of the sight of the public eye and reach; then you’d have the ministers/etc. (Firstborn) who relayed the ultimate leader’s wishes and desires.

When Malomedies was returned, the only Secondborn involved in the discussion of what to do was Cadeyrn, the first of the Secondborn. And here, while they discuss the matter in the open, it’s just Firstborn discussing.

The Avatar of the Pale Tree didn’t come about until much later, just like any direct discussion between the Pale Tree and her hundreds of children. I believe this came about in the first place because of Cadeyrn rebellion and the Nightmare Court’s foundation – she realized such a distanced leadership would result in her children swaying from the ‘proper path’ and fall to Nightmare.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You can think of sylvari culture in the early days similar to a constitutional monarchy that utilized a Japanese Emperor kind of figurehead. You’d have the ultimate leader (Pale Tree in this case) who remained well known but often in the shadows, out of the sight of the public eye and reach

I just disagree. The Ventari tablet is like the constitution. If you change the constitution without consulting the constitutional monarch you are removing them of all authority. The same can be said of the Ventari tablet as moral authority (like telling the Pope to throw away the bible). The Sylvari could do that except that they would still rely on the Pale Tree as their mother, their home, the only progenitor of their entire race, the guardian of the Dream, etc. It’s still seems implausible situation to me that they would not consult her.

No one was changing the meaning of the Ventari Tablet – the only group ever to attempt such is the Nightmare Court, whom are more about “do the opposite of” (though originally formed with the mentality of “ignore”).

The Firstborn meeting was not altering the Ventari Tablet in any way, shape, or form.

Maybe they did consult her, off screen. Maybe the Pale Tree told them to figure it out amongst themselves. But just read the story entries in the blog post. What we see is the same kind of scenario.

The Pale Tree was very selective in when and to whom she’d talk, and she’d talk directly to individuals, rather than to a group.

TL;DR
Yes, the Pale Tree started out as a terrible leader and mother. This is why the Nightmare Court was formed in the first place – because of the Pale Tree’s terrible leadership, and Cadeyrn’s supreme selfish child-like spoiledness. And this instance reflects that perfectly.

I think that Vorpp’s actions might be explained by the fact that the Arcane Council’s authority is quite weak outside of Rata Sum and it’s immediate surroundings. While the individual krewe who first experimented on Malomedies might have returned him once they discovered his sentience and been contrite about it, other krewes might have turned around and gone, “Well, what if that first krewe was WRONG? More studies are needed!” And then gone ahead without waiting for the Council’s approval (if it was even needed, since the Arcane Council seems to rule with a very light hand).

Vorpp’s krewe is the Arcane Eye – whom answer directly and solely to the Arcane Council’s whim.

So that was the council’s doing.

Jaken.6801:

She grew up with Ventaris words and knows that they are intelligent beings who have a concept of honor.

I think that might actually have been the point – she (and the proto-courtiers) were frustrated enough at the Tablet that when they came across Ventari’s kind, they made an excuse to vent those frustrations.

ElysianEternity.6215:

That would kinda explain Mr. Fries’ twitter statement and why Asura were still experimenting on Sylvari after their first encounter. It would also make sense to refer to the Asura who experimented on Malomedies as Inquest in retrospect even if they weren’t part of the Inquest yet when it happened. @@_@@ /2 cents

Actually, by my understanding, the ones that experimented on Malomedies weren’t Inquest or proto-Inquest. They were just investigating an interesting new plant creature that they didn’t realise was sapient until partway through – and when they did, they did what they could to make amends.

Vorpp and his krewe here, on the other hand, are Inquesty, although they’re still at the stage of trying to lie to themselves so they feel better about what they’re doing rather than embracing the eartip-twirling evil.

Stooperdale.3560:

Then we come to timing of their discussion. The newborn Sylvari will have been growing in pods for a long time and the firstborn only start wondering how to guide them after they’re come out? That’s even forgetting Caedryn who has been alive for months according to the dialogue. It just isn’t plausible that these people are having this discussion with that dialogue at that time.

Emphasis is mine. When I went through the instance, I came out with the feeling that the Firstborn were actually surprised that the Seconborn were, well, born. It seemed to me they were not prepared for more of them coming out of the seeds.
I think they may have not (at the time) made the connection between them coming out of pods, and more pods bore by the tree.

I was kind of flippant about it earlier, but since the conversation is still going in that direction- I suspect what happened isn’t that the Pale Tree was a bad leader, per se, but that she didn’t and doesn’t consider it her role to lead. Everything we’ve seen of her has been along the lines of advice and guidance, and never unsolicited, save for asking Ceara to please not destroy the world. She concerns herself with the Dream, and the overall direction of the sylvari race, and ensuring that all the newborn saplings know of the high regard in which she holds the tablet (whether that constitutes forcing it on them or not is up to your interpretation), but beyond that she seems perfectly willing to let her children find their own way. I think what we see in the instance is the Firstborn coming to terms with the fact that having no leader at all simply does not work anymore.

draxynnic.3719:

Actually, by my understanding, the ones that experimented on Malomedies weren’t Inquest or proto-Inquest. They were just investigating an interesting new plant creature that they didn’t realise was sapient until partway through – and when they did, they did what they could to make amends.

Vorpp and his krewe here, on the other hand, are Inquesty, although they’re still at the stage of trying to lie to themselves so they feel better about what they’re doing rather than embracing the eartip-twirling evil.

I’m fairly sure that during sylvari week interviews, it was stated that Kudu was the one who experimented on Malomedies.

Not sure if it was by name or via “Snaff’s former apprentice” (or akin).

BobbyStein.2315:

On a related note: it’s extremely helpful if people reported narrative issues (continuity or otherwise) in an certain format. This post on Reddit regarding the Seeds of Truth lore inconsistency was incredibly useful in tracking down the bug.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/related/2o7nkg/sylvari_lore_inconsistency_spoilers_seeds_of_truth/

• Quote the phrase from the current build
• Quote the phrase from the core game (or GW1)
• Explain the discrepancy

That’s it. We just need the facts, which we can then use to locate the content in our tools and investigate the issue. So feel free to let us know when something isn’t quite right in the game. Just please present it in a neutral, factual manner and it’s very likely we’ll be able to look into it. Burying the facts inside a longer post is the surest way for it to get lost.

Thanks much.

That’s a good idea.

Maybe a dedicated thread or a sticky where only posts in the format you describe can be added. I’m quite certain the lore experts on the forum would be happy to add to it in this way if it meant getting the consistent story lore we all want.

Thanks Bobby for taking the time to explain!

Made me think of the lore inconsistencies (and anomalies) that are documented on the wiki, though not in a category of their own. Would it be helpful for you if we added a “Lore inconsistencies” category for these (or won’t you be using the wiki for bug searching)?

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to stress that the reports need to be written as factual, succinct entries, otherwise it’ll just become another long thread that’s difficult to parse. Thanks for understanding.

That’s why I’m thinking the wiki could be a better place to add such reports (using categories)? No room for speculation or discussion there, just facts.

On the wiki category idea, I’m sure a new template akin to the bug, sic, and anomaly template could be made that autocategorizes, and you (and other writers) would just have to bookmark a single page and check it periodically – no need for activity on the wiki, just observing a single page.

Though you saying you don’t check the wiki is a bit saddening as that’s a pretty decent way of checking what lore we know (when it’s done…. conflicts have put such on a standstill several times).