Guild Wars 2

So…..this is sort of a complaint to ANet about storylines. Especially that of Logan and the Queen. Unlike the original GW game, there is no epic (straight) romance-unless I’m missing something or it’s supposed to be Logan’s obsession with Queen Jennah.

Who treats him pretty much like trash, and a lot of people dislike him for this ‘character flaw.’ Not that I want the human mentor to die, but I think this is the only means for him to redeem himself. (Just to be clear I am NOT a Logan hater, I actually feel sorry for him.) And then the Queen realizes what a fool she’s been. Especially if he dies in her defense. Serve the bloody girl right.

ANet if you read this, just realize there are young female gamers out there, and you don’t have to cater everything to the young male gamer…

According to… Ree, I think it was… Jennah’s in a similar situation to Elizabeth the First was in English history. She’d like to have Logan as Prince Consort or whatever the Krytan term would be, but her current political situation is such that it’s not practical to claim a commoner as such. On the other hand, for a reigning queen she’s starting to get pretty old to be unmarried and without an heir (she’s been reigning for over ten years – we don’t know what the age of royal majority is, but this implies she’s in the vicinity of 30) so it’s possible that she’s putting the succession at risk in the hopes of engineering circumstances by which she can have Logan: such as Logan doing something sufficiently impressive that nobody can call ‘favouritism’ were he to be granted a patent of nobility.

Which, incidentally, also explains why she keeps pushing him to go out and be her champion rather than sticking to her as a bodyguard like glue – he’s not going to do anything that will allow her to push a patent of nobility through while sticking at her side 24/7.

(It’s also worth noting that, while it has been retconned since, the Queen’s Jubilee LS occurred when ArenaNet was still claiming that what was happening in the LS was simultaneous with, rather than happening after, the Personal Story. So the details there have to be considered in the light that it was written with the assumption that Logan hadn’t buried the hatchet with Rytlock and helped kill an Elder Dragon at the time.)

draxynnic.3719:

According to… Ree, I think it was… Jennah’s in a similar situation to Elizabeth the First was in English history. She’d like to have Logan as Prince Consort or whatever the Krytan term would be, but her current political situation is such that it’s not practical to claim a commoner as such. On the other hand, for a reigning queen she’s starting to get pretty old to be unmarried and without an heir (she’s been reigning for over ten years – we don’t know what the age of royal majority is, but this implies she’s in the vicinity of 30) so it’s possible that she’s putting the succession at risk in the hopes of engineering circumstances by which she can have Logan: such as Logan doing something sufficiently impressive that nobody can call ‘favouritism’ were he to be granted a patent of nobility.

Which, incidentally, also explains why she keeps pushing him to go out and be her champion rather than sticking to her as a bodyguard like glue – he’s not going to do anything that will allow her to push a patent of nobility through while sticking at her side 24/7.

(It’s also worth noting that, while it has been retconned since, the Queen’s Jubilee LS occurred when ArenaNet was still claiming that what was happening in the LS was simultaneous with, rather than happening after, the Personal Story. So the details there have to be considered in the light that it was written with the assumption that Logan hadn’t buried the hatchet with Rytlock and helped kill an Elder Dragon at the time.)

she’s supposedly giving kasmeer her title back just for helping with the scarlet conspiracy. i’m pretty sure “saving the life of the queen, killing zhaitan, and a bunch of dragon champions” is bigger than that.

Definitely. However, reinstating Kasmeer is probably easier because:

• It’s a re-instatement. There’s probably a lot less pushback to returning a formerly noble family to grace than raising a commoner. (In fact, the impression I’ve had from some of that is that Jennah may be looking at issuing a pardon or even an overturning of the original verdict, so that legally speaking the loss of status never occurred.)

• There’s less of a potential accusation of favouritism. Any attempt by Jennah to raise Logan is going to face accusations that she’s doing it purely for her own interest. To oppose that, she needs Logan to have so thoroughly proved himself that nobody can make a credible claim that he hasn’t deserved it.

It’s possible that Logan’s part in defeating Zhaitan was enough, and the ball is already rolling behind the scenes… but anything more he can do in the meantime would certainly help. Particularly if he were to return with Lazarus’ head. It may even be an ulterior motive on Jennah’s part for annexing the Silverwastes – it might be easier to ennoble Logan if she has new lands to give out to new nobles, particularly if Logan plays an important role in helping to claim said land.

It’s pretty ridiculous that Logan’s family isn’t noble anyway. Logan is the descendent of Gwen and Keiran Thackaery, two of the most notable heroes of Ascalon and Keiran in particular was vital in ensuring Jennah’s ancestor, Salma, was able to retake the throne after her father abandoned it. Keiran was heavily involved in training the troops in Kryta and his unit along with Captain Langmar (who gave her life for Kryta) were cornerstones in the Shining Blade and Lionguard fight to drive out the White Mantle. How could you justify Kasmeer’s family being nobility while the Thackeray family have done far more for humanity and, through Logan, all of Tyria yet Logan isn’t one?

If Anise’s words about nobility being about actions and not wealth have any weight (which is kinda silly because Krytans who aren’t part of the nobility risk and sacrifice their lives every day in service of Kryta, nothing Kasmeer has done compares to the sacrifices of others who didn’t gain higher status) there are far better candidates for nobility than Kasmeer. Even Logan himself was the sole human of a six person team that took down Elder Dragon champions. Kasmeer removed a veil and played detective for an episode. If Kasmeer became nobility based on merit alone, why not Marjory?

If giving Logan land is an issue, I doubt many people of Ebonhawke would take issue with the descendant of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray taking up residence in their walls. His ancestors led the Ascalonians to settle Ebonhawke, the city is literally littered with tales of their heroic journey and it is the final resting place of Gwen.

At this point, Logan needs a Rytlock/revenant level of kitten to redeem him in the eyes of the players. He’s almost as unpopular as Trahearne.

The most unacceptable part is the phansasmal kidnapping incident.

Logan makes a VERY good point there, “How am I supposed to protect you if you don’t trust me and keep secrets?”

That, combined with the mind control/telepathy spell they put on him makes me think that he’s a huge victim and she’s just terrible.

The fact that Logan’s family is not considered nobility is a bunch of hogwash. What exactly has Kasmeer really done in comparison? I’m sure Ebonhawk and any other remaining Ascalonian settlement would gladly claim him as their overlord.

Let’s be honest here, no matter how much I wish for Ascalon to be re-taken by the humans, it won’t be. The story has moved on. I just hope that ANet can redeem our last remnant GW1 and Ascalon in the form of Logan and give him a decent storyline and redeem him. I don’t care if he marries Jennah in time-though it would be nice to have an epic straight romance. As long as he redeems himself.

As for Trahearne don’t get me started. I HATE him. I’d much rather have Tybalt or Warmaster Forgal in his stead.

Has anyone else noticed with the LS season though that your PC is developing their own ‘guild’ of sorts with Kasmeer, Marjory, Braham and Rox?

Logan’s family is Ascalonian by descent, so it’s not surprising he’s not considered a noble. Especially when he spent most of his youth as a mercenary.

As for why it hasn’t progressed – welcome to one of the other hundred plots Anet has going on in the background with zero progress for many years.

Considering how much power and sway the Ministry has in Krytan, it could be possible that they have some say in the decision of someone being raised to noble status. Beetlestone and cohorts probably know that Jennah will never marry as long as she loves Logan. So as long as they can keep him from advancing in status, that leaves Jennah is a weakened position.

draxynnic.3719:

According to… Ree, I think it was… Jennah’s in a similar situation to Elizabeth the First was in English history. She’d like to have Logan as Prince Consort or whatever the Krytan term would be, but her current political situation is such that it’s not practical to claim a commoner as such. On the other hand, for a reigning queen she’s starting to get pretty old to be unmarried and without an heir (she’s been reigning for over ten years – we don’t know what the age of royal majority is, but this implies she’s in the vicinity of 30) so it’s possible that she’s putting the succession at risk in the hopes of engineering circumstances by which she can have Logan: such as Logan doing something sufficiently impressive that nobody can call ‘favouritism’ were he to be granted a patent of nobility.

Which, incidentally, also explains why she keeps pushing him to go out and be her champion rather than sticking to her as a bodyguard like glue – he’s not going to do anything that will allow her to push a patent of nobility through while sticking at her side 24/7.

(It’s also worth noting that, while it has been retconned since, the Queen’s Jubilee LS occurred when ArenaNet was still claiming that what was happening in the LS was simultaneous with, rather than happening after, the Personal Story. So the details there have to be considered in the light that it was written with the assumption that Logan hadn’t buried the hatchet with Rytlock and helped kill an Elder Dragon at the time.)

She became Queen really young, as a teenager. So she’s actually in her mid 20’s.

I’ve been working off 16 being a minimum for someone to have the crown, and it could well be 18 (we know she had a regent for a while). So her minimum age is likely to be about 26 1/2, possibly 28 1/2.

That’s a significant portion of her fertile life, and since unlike Queen Elizabeth it’s implied that there are no commonly known nephews or nieces or even more distant relatives available (although the OoW imply there is one somewhere…) then I’d imagine that there are people who are starting to grow concerned about how late Jennah is leaving it to produce an heir. She does still have about a decade to go, but having left it as late as she has implies that she has a reason for holding out against the pressure she’s no doubt under to just get a husband already – either political (wanting to make sure she doesn’t end up sharing power with someone she doesn’t trust), romantic (hanging out for a specific person) or both.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As for why it hasn’t progressed – welcome to one of the other hundred plots Anet has going on in the background with zero progress for many years.

That bothers me. While I understand that, at its core, the “story” is about us, our Living World should include more than just our personal bubble. It seems like the only continuing background story is Job-o-Tron.

Koviko.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As for why it hasn’t progressed – welcome to one of the other hundred plots Anet has going on in the background with zero progress for many years.

That bothers me. While I understand that, at its core, the “story” is about us, our Living World should include more than just our personal bubble. It seems like the only continuing background story is Job-o-Tron.

They can’t use Logan as an adventurer if he’s the royal consort, either.

traditionally, knights were nobles (proper armour was expansive) plus he helped destroy a bunch of dragon champion, almost destroyed an elder dragon (though it was his fault they failed) actually destroyed another elder dragon (though that was us using fireworks, but apparently he helped us take off in our first ship) – he also helped when scarlet attacked during jennah’s jubilee – she has plenty of excuses to raise him to noble level

since he is the direct descendent of gwen (founder of the final human city in ascalon), that makes him the rightful human ruler of ascalon right? once he dispels the ghosts – they have to promote his lineage – when will they fix magdaer? maybe both him and rytlock have to do the ritual together?

You’d think Magdaer would have been completed by now… Do we know who is actually reforging it?

i assume it to be Beigarth – him being a famous norn smith and all

Koviko.3248:

You’d think Magdaer would have been completed by now… Do we know who is actually reforging it?

She took it to the only being that might possible know how to reforge a legendary… Zommoros!

Sadly though, he forged it into an exotic 1h cleric sword.

Getefix.9150:

traditionally, knights were nobles (proper armour was expansive) plus he helped destroy a bunch of dragon champion, almost destroyed an elder dragon (though it was his fault they failed) actually destroyed another elder dragon (though that was us using fireworks, but apparently he helped us take off in our first ship) – he also helped when scarlet attacked during jennah’s jubilee – she has plenty of excuses to raise him to noble level

since he is the direct descendent of gwen (founder of the final human city in ascalon), that makes him the rightful human ruler of ascalon right? once he dispels the ghosts – they have to promote his lineage – when will they fix magdaer? maybe both him and rytlock have to do the ritual together?

Actually, if you look at the historical references, many of those we would call ‘knights’ actually weren’t. The original source of the rank ‘sergeant’ referred to a commonborn soldier who was outfitted in the same sort of heavy armour that we think of for ‘knights’ by their lord, while the term ‘men at arms’ referred to knights and sergeants combined without distinguishing by rank. The meanings of terms in common usage has shifted since then, but the important thing is that trusted commonborn soldiers could fight as knights (although if the lord had the authority, that could be a step towards getting a knighthood).

That’s essentially where Logan is – his armour is provided as part of his job. Before joining the Seraph, he wore leather… and while that was partly for mobility, he wasn’t afraid to add at least some metal after he became a little more affluent in the ring during EoD.

When it comes to patents of nobility – it’s likely that if Logan had been anything other than a consort elect to the Queen, he would have had a patent of nobility easily by now, but with the Ministry looking for any excuse to condemn the Queen for nepotistically raising a jumped-up commoner to a level far above his station as part of some silly girlish notion of romance, Logan basically needs to prove beyond potentially quite unreasonable doubt that he deserves whatever title Jennah might bestow upon him. It’s possible that what it’d take will be no less than people rioting on the streets demanding for it and making it abundantly clear that it will be political suicide for anyone to oppose it.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s possible that what it’d take will be no less than people rioting on the streets demanding for it and making it abundantly clear that it will be political suicide for anyone to oppose it.

Put like that, it seems even more peculiar that Anise, embodying the apparatus by which the Queen could best secretly catalyze that level of popular support, has been set up to be at loggerheads with Logan.

Actually, the impression I got was that Anise was trying to give Logan a reality check that he needs to be out there doing the sort of heroic deed that would allow such a situation to arise, rather than behaving like a bodyguard.

Jennah’s goals require Logan to be a champion, and I think Anise’s trolling in Queen’s Jubilee was part Anise rubbing Logan’s nose in the Shining Blade having things handled without him, and part looking to provoke him into going back into the world and proving himself.

(It’s also worth remembering that the Jubilee was made while ArenaNet still had the policy that the LS was simultaneous with rather than after the Personal Story, and thus some of the specifics of their interactions may now be a plothole.)

Eilis.6089:

So…..this is sort of a complaint to ANet about storylines. Especially that of Logan and the Queen. Unlike the original GW game, there is no epic (straight) romance-unless I’m missing something or it’s supposed to be Logan’s obsession with Queen Jennah.

Who treats him pretty much like trash, and a lot of people dislike him for this ‘character flaw.’ Not that I want the human mentor to die, but I think this is the only means for him to redeem himself. (Just to be clear I am NOT a Logan hater, I actually feel sorry for him.) And then the Queen realizes what a fool she’s been. Especially if he dies in her defense. Serve the bloody girl right.

ANet if you read this, just realize there are young female gamers out there, and you don’t have to cater everything to the young male gamer…

Uh…

Actually, ANET has been criticized for nudging towards strong female characters. You are just using one as an example.

Eir, Scarlet(arguable), Caithe, Zojja, and many more.

I don’t know, seems like ANET caters for the young, the old, male and female alike. just need to know where to look.

FYI : I am not a big fan of MOST of the human characters, most of them seem weak and shallow in general.

Novuake, I have nothing against strong female characters, but the game seems unbalanced. And you’re right most of the human characters seem rather weak. This was more of a complaint against how Logan seems virtually useless as well as Jennah and how honestly they need a good epic straight romance. I don’t care if it’s Jennah/Logan or someone else. But I’m missing the Gwen/Kieran and Rurik/Althea.

Erukk.1408:

Koviko.3248:

You’d think Magdaer would have been completed by now… Do we know who is actually reforging it?

She took it to the only being that might possible know how to reforge a legendary… Zommoros!

Sadly though, he forged it into an exotic 1h cleric sword.

I laughed hard at this.

Erukk.1408:

Koviko.3248:

You’d think Magdaer would have been completed by now… Do we know who is actually reforging it?

She took it to the only being that might possible know how to reforge a legendary… Zommoros!

Sadly though, he forged it into an exotic 1h cleric sword.

Oh, now we know why they don’t want to talk about it.

Eilis.6089:

Novuake, I have nothing against strong female characters, but the game seems unbalanced. And you’re right most of the human characters seem rather weak. This was more of a complaint against how Logan seems virtually useless as well as Jennah and how honestly they need a good epic straight romance. I don’t care if it’s Jennah/Logan or someone else. But I’m missing the Gwen/Kieran and Rurik/Althea.

Jip, let’s just attribute it to human characters being terribly written, shall we.

The real reason Logan and Jennah’s story is poorly or extremely under developed. And the reason why BOTH are basically old furniture stored in a forgotten corner of as massive GW2 warehouse is because the GW2 Lore-mistress and her writing team are too focused on the Sylvari and have left them there too long. Its now extremely problematic to re-insert them into the story. Since had they been actually present in the current Living Story, the events would have occurred significantly differently. The reality is with the exception of Rylock most of the guild know as Destiny’s Edge have been essentially forgotten. What is clear is that Arenanet has forgotten that Destiny’s Edge was re-forged as a guild at the end of the Personal Story.

That’s an unfair assessment. Yes, the Sylvari story is front-and-center, but that’s because its the direction the story was meant to go. The Scarlet arc led to the Mordremoth arc, and the Sylvari are a huge part of it. My expectation is that, now that the cat is out of the bag, we’ll start to see more development among the non-Sylvari races.

Personally, I want to see more and more human story since their history is the richest to us. That, or to tell us more history of the other races.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

And the reason why BOTH are basically old furniture stored in a forgotten corner of as massive GW2 warehouse is because the GW2 Lore-mistress and her writing team are too focused on the Sylvari and have left them there too long.

Huh. You make it sound like Angel is the Lead Writer. Which I’m very sure is still Bobby’s job. Did she get the promotion Highlander style? Everyone knows that’s the best way to get one. Though, I’m not sure what Angel will do with Bobby’s power to grow epic moustaches. Hopefully she will use that power for good and not evil.

draxynnic.3719:

(It’s also worth remembering that the Jubilee was made while ArenaNet still had the policy that the LS was simultaneous with rather than after the Personal Story, and thus some of the specifics of their interactions may now be a plothole.)

I recall that Anet said pretty early, around the release of Southsun Cove, that that event specificly is set after Zhaitan’s fall or at the very least after the Pact gained enough dominance over the Sea of Sorrows. While the karka were speculated to be fleeing from the DS dragon, they could reach LA because the risen naval patrols became scarce. Dragon Bash itself can be considered as the celebration (and/or rememberence) of Zhaitans fall.

The Queens Jubilee I thinks is pretty late in the story that they would know already for sure that its set after the PS. Scarlet makes an appearence for the first time, and while most of her presentation suggested that Anet didnt know what they were doing, in the end there was a plan for her all along that clearly arches over to the expansion itself.

They flipflopped a couple of times. Around the release of Southsun Cove, it was as you say. Later in Season 1 proper, people started noticing signs that the Living Story team were writing as if Zhaitan was still alive, and when people called them on this, they played the ‘it was never said IN-GAME that Southsun happened after Zhaitan’s defeat" card and said that their policy was that the Living Story and the Personal Story was happening simultaneously. Later, around the time the destruction of Lion’s Arch was looming, they realised that this policy was going to start veering from the ridiculous to the ludicrous and turned it around again.

At the time QJ was written, they were running the ‘LS and PS is concurrent’ policy… which is why we had Logan and Rytlock behaving as if they hadn’t reconciled. (I think it was actually during Dragon Bash that people pulled ArenaNet up on indications that Zhaitan was still alive and they played the card mentioned above.)

I dont recall seeing Rythlock in the QJ, only as Anisse’s illusion on the presented watchknight when Logan was to fight it. It upset him for obvious reasons. Even if they burried the hatchet at that time (suggesting it to be post-PS), it was like fighting a personal demon of some sort for him.

But overall, i agree, they did flip-flop it or didnt make it quite clear. The fact that we were and are discussing the possibility is proof enough.

There’s also an exchange where Rytlock mentions – to Rox, I think – that he’s sending Rox as the representative in his stead because he doesn’t want to be around because “Logan Thackeray will be there. And any time you put Logan and the queen in the same place, things get…irritating. I don’t have the patience for that right now.”

It’s ambiguous, but it was deliberate ambiguity. What they were actually running as their policy at the time is that the timeline from a particular character’s perspective is that things happen in the order that they do it. Blitz the content and kill Zhaitan before the first Halloween? The entire LS happens after the Personal Story. Just made the character yesterday? Well, obviously the entire Personal Story, including dungeons, has to have happened after all of the chapters of the Living Story up to that point.

As a result, they tried to write behaviours of all the important NPCs, particularly with Destiny’s Edge, was written in an ambiguous state where it’s not too out of place regardless of where in the PS you are. Barely even started? Rytlock hates Logan’s guts. #2’d through Zhaitan months ago? Well, they’ve kinda reconciled, but the old wounds are still raw enough to sting. And what they wrote had to be ambiguous enough that it could fit any point along this continuum.

Around the end of 2013, they realised this was insanity (it basically meant that they couldn’t progress anything that was touched on during the personal story, just in case somebody played things out of order) and reverted to the LS happening after the PS for all characters, even if in practise this means that from the player’s perspective the character is going back and forth in time.

While I understand why they did LS, I have to admit I rather don’t like it. It’s annoying, especially since you are right I’m pretty sure 80s can play LS without having completed PS.

Maybe the HoT expansion will include some storytelling besides just sylvari, and bring back the human lore, etc.