Guild Wars 2

A few weeks ago I tried to map the spectrum of magic, I think I am close but it was much harder than I thought. Until then here are some discoveries I found during my search. Here is the tldr; explanations below.

1. The Soul is the Source of Intelligence in Tyria
2. Sylvari Have No Spectral Soul
3. Dervish were the catalyst for modern magic. (speculation)
4. Souls are made from dust. (hypothesis)

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The soul-body duality.

Gw2 appeals to dualistic philosophies. Specifically Cartesian Dualism. The mind is produced through communication between the rational soul and the animalistic body. Essentially all people are just souls piloting the body they were born into.

• “In most cases reanimated undead do not retain their original soul and as such they are bound to the will of a master – the magician who brought the creature into undeath – and would usually be useless without one, either perishing along their master or continuing to wander without purpose. "
• “[Constructs] that display apparent intelligent behavior are usually animated by souls (for example, the Iron Forgeman is powered by Flame Djinn and Shiro’ken by bound spirits)."
• “Demons find ways into our world, where they feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures.” vital energy aka = Orrian Spirit Gildran: “Slay these demons before they feast on my soul!” -https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_Fleshy_Operation

However a large difference is that a “soul” is not necessarily made of spirit.

• Djinn: “Unlike most elementals, djinn are free-willed and sapient beings, and their souls are made out of elemental energies.”

As a result, Elder dragons don’t need access to the death or spirit spheres of influence to produce souls. Concentrating energy is sufficient. Sapient beings are just the highly concentrated souls.

• Tests attempting to verify the theory of draconic enchanto-consumption have shown that the amount of power and free will a dragon minion has is proportional to the amount of dragon energy imbued in it by its master.

Necromancers are most likely using dark magic to make artificial souls to pilot corpses. This makes perfect sense considering the work of golemancers to unify necromancy and golemancy. Is it not surprising that the first mind/golem interface was created by a Necromancer.

——————————————2——————————————
Do sylvari have souls?

In gw1, plant sentience was linked to excessive magic.

But as expected sapience was linked to souls.

The only sapient plants were created by necromancers tying the soul of a human to the soul of a tree. However this was an act of Necromancy and Mordremoth does not have domain over death or shadow. Moreover, the constructs were fleshy, as in they left exploitable corpses that could be reanimated with death magic.

As such Sylvari are incredibly unusual.

Of the sapient entities we cannot reanimate, only the djinn had corporeal form.

Are Sylvari elementals? That is extremely unlikely for a variety of reason, foremost being there are no plant elementals and we have no reason to believe Mordremoth has influence over elemental magic.

However Mordremoth does have influence over the Mind and Plants, and that is how they achieve sapience with apparently no elemental/spiritual soul. With mind magic you don’t need a soul. You just need psychic plants that can capture/store information from the dream. They are safe from reanimation until an ED accumulates enough Death and Plant magic ( and knows how to use it).

Sylvari have souls as much as Djinn have souls, but neither are necromantic, neither can be reanimated or become ghosts.

——————————————3——————————————
After Nightfall we stopped seeing Dervishes. But if the teachings of paragons got out, then definitely some dervish as well.

Atheist people were working holy magic. Guardians just needed faith in something, this would not have sat nicely with Dervishes. Wandering asceticism was lonely and becoming unnecessary. It is unlikely the mystic arts stayed secret at that point.

While Monks developed into Guardians. Dervishes were absorbed into the other spellcaster professions. This brought the art of flash enchantment/avatar magic to the schools.

Eles:

• In Eye of the North, the campaign to tie gw1 to gw2, players discovered chromatic drakes. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Chromatic_Drake This was the first instance of an elementalist switching skills/attributes merely by changing attunement.
  https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elemental_Shift
• Naturally Tyrians wanted the Chromatic Drake’s adaptability, but lacked the refine in shapeshifting. In addition they wanted to attune instantly. Dervish taught them flash enchantment, and now Elementalists could attune instantly without needing Glyphs.

Necro:

• Dying to become a lich is not very nice. Necros would have heard of Palawa Joko but not all would have the strength or the willpower to go all the way.
• Transformation was the new thing. A person could become an avatar of something, change their flesh, but not stay in that form forever.
• By this point the energy storage techniques of Elementalist would be known to Necros. Exploiting corpses was way too impractical. Stockpiling life force became the norm.
• Necros learned how to transform into death shroud, or into lich form, or plague without dying by channeling life force as Dervish channeled the gods.

Ranger:

• It was much harder for them. They were already attuned to natural energy but not on the level of the spellcaster professions (mesmer sense chaos, necro sense life force, ele sense elements, guardians sense life)
• Also its much harder than it looks. Investigating https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Astralaria We discover what might go into being a celestial avatar. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cosmic_Power
• After Rangers upped their attunement, and started practicing energy storage. They just copied the Necromancers. Becoming Celestial Avatars, rather than avatars of death.

Mesmer already had the art of transformation from chaos magic.

——————————————4——————————————
Pretty simple to follow. Souls are made of dust.

Ectoplasm is the structure of the soul for ghosts.
“Ascalonian ghosts retain their human forms but their flesh has been replaced by a pale-blue ectoplasm. According to Ghosts of Ascalon, killing an Ascalonian ghost outright is difficult – attacking them only removes ectoplasm from the form until they dissipate and, after a period of time (which may vary) the ghost will simply reform. "
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascalonian_ghost

Which makes sense given the color of aggregated ectoplasm.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Massive_Glob_of_Ectoplasm_

When we salvage ectoplasm we can get dust.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pile_of_Crystalline_Dust

In general, and in both games, dust is only dropped by the undead, or the elemental (including non earthy elementals).
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pile_of_Dust

You don’t get dust from killing creatures that send their soul to another place upon death. You don’t get dust from unintelligent animals, or from plants.

No you only get dust from things we know have souls.

This supports the idea that the soul is made of dust. However this may be coincidence.

To test we need to see more creatures in the beastiary that support or deny my suspicions.

Problem with the rangers is that druidism is only a recently rediscovered skill, presumably only after learning more about the druids deep in the Maguuma jungles. Before that, they didn’t really have any avatar-esque skill.

Also, do you want to take a stab at why mesmer magic changed from being more mind-altering to spectral summoning? Or why the mantras changed from things that empowered the user to something they could shout in battle, either to heal or harm? Or are these aspects completely separate from your dervish theory?

Daniel Handler.4816:

With mind magic you don’t need a soul. You just need psychic plants that can capture/store information from the dream.

While I agree that sylvari don’t have souls – we’ve seen none, and honestly there’s no indication that they do; same goes for any dragon minion, in fact, except those that imprison another being’s soul (such as certain high level risen) as far as we know – I disagree with this.

Malyck being why. He explicitly states, multiple times even after his apparently amnesia being discovered to not have been amnesia at all (he remembers all since awakening), that he has no ties to the Dream or Nightmare. So he is sapient without “information from the Dream”.

Furthermore, mordrem are mindless – if this was an attribute given to all minions of Mordremoth, then the mordrem would not be so.

Rognik.2579:

Also, do you want to take a stab at why mesmer magic changed from being more mind-altering to spectral summoning? Or why the mantras changed from things that empowered the user to something they could shout in battle, either to heal or harm? Or are these aspects completely separate from your dervish theory?

This was explained in an old interview as being part of the Mesmer Collective’s ‘fault’. Mesmers have always been able to manipulate both minds and reality, but in GW1 they were focused on the former. We do see the latter in GW1 – such as in Chaos Storm, the manual description, and Reiko’s fight (where she summons clones) – but it’s more prominent in GW2. We also see the former in GW1, during the circus storyline.

The interview’s explanation for the change in direction is because the Mesmer Collective fears a public outlash if they find out that mesmers can manipulate what only one individual can see, and as such as banned use – and learning of – powerful mind manipulating spells that we saw so commonly in GW1 and allowing only their highest and trusted members to learn the spells.

Of course… We don’t know who those highest members are.

Add about Mad King, he is a sprit, a have its own realm.
But did he created that realm? or his born as spirit and born of that realm are two different things. Candy related magic
Add about Sinister from canthan festival. Kanaxai, Urgoz, River of Souls from Realm of Torment, Gorseval.
Magic x Soul. Waiting to read more collective info.

It’s not really a “realm of his own”. The Mad Realm (often called Mad King’s Realm) is just a subsection of the Underworld. He rules it due to his power over the other spirits (majorly part of the Lunatic Court), but said rulership is currently being contested by Edrick.

Does that mean: all realms in UW have related theme and the one who exeeds at characteristikc of that realm is tolerated by Grenth to do what he is like? especially visit world of mortals every hallowen, does that mean he realize his job correctly? what if in mad realm power would gain someone sane? and would refuse to scarry mortals and for example doing something opposite – cure|eat madness/crazyniess from others?

I’m not convinced with the idea that sylvari are soulless. They are sapient, after all, and the other dragon minions that we know of that are sapient appear to be the ones that have souls tied up in them (certainly, every time we’ve found a ghost whose body became a Risen, the Risen is an automaton).

Sure, we’ve seen no sylvari ghosts… but ghosts of nonhuman races are fairly uncommon. There are a few norn around, but among asura and charr, the only ghosts I can think of are ones that have arisen through unusual circumstances (Oola used necromancy to tie her spirit to her lab, and the charr loggers being forced out of their bodies by wraiths… which is more of an out-of-body experience than a true ghost). So it’s possible that some races are more prone to becoming ghosts, while others, for whatever reason, have a stronger pull to move on. Dead sylvari are said to go into the Dream – this seems like it might not be fully accurate because there is no report of meeting a dead sylvari in the Dream, but if the Dream is connected to the Mists as some have suggested, it’s possible that the connection between the sylvari and the Dream makes it less likely that they won’t cross over into the Mists.

Even if we did assume that, short of extreme events like the Foefire, every race has equal chances of becoming a ghost… most ghosts we see are older than the entire sylvari race (those born from the Pale Tree, anyway). It may be that we haven’t seen any sylvari ghosts just because the circumstances that would create one haven’t arisen yet.

(It’s also worth noting that we might have an example of plant ghosts in the druids. As far as I recall, we’ve never had confirmation on whether the original Maguuma druids were humans that became plants and then ascended into spirit form, or whether they were sapient treehearts from the beginning.)

@Mem no Fushia: There do seem to be some indications towards that direction. For instance, the Ice Wastes are ruled over by King Frozenwind.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m not convinced with the idea that sylvari are soulless. They are sapient, after all, and the other dragon minions that we know of that are sapient appear to be the ones that have souls tied up in them (certainly, every time we’ve found a ghost whose body became a Risen, the Risen is an automaton).

Sure, we’ve seen no sylvari ghosts… but ghosts of nonhuman races are fairly uncommon. There are a few norn around, but among asura and charr, the only ghosts I can think of are ones that have arisen through unusual circumstances (Oola used necromancy to tie her spirit to her lab, and the charr loggers being forced out of their bodies by wraiths… which is more of an out-of-body experience than a true ghost). So it’s possible that some races are more prone to becoming ghosts, while others, for whatever reason, have a stronger pull to move on. Dead sylvari are said to go into the Dream – this seems like it might not be fully accurate because there is no report of meeting a dead sylvari in the Dream, but if the Dream is connected to the Mists as some have suggested, it’s possible that the connection between the sylvari and the Dream makes it less likely that they won’t cross over into the Mists.

This gets into really philosophical territory. How does one define a soul? Is it merely the embodiment of a personality? Is it something more than that, something intangible that living beings have? Sylvari are all barren, and can’t produce more of their kind on their own, unlike all the other races. And yes, human ghosts are the most prevalent, partly because they were everywhere 250 years ago. Does it take that long for a ghost to manifest itself? And what exactly causes a ghost to appear? We don’t really know a lot about any of these subjects, but nothing we’ve seen from the sylvari shows that they might leave a ghost behind when it would become appropriate, so they might indeed be soulless.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

With mind magic you don’t need a soul. You just need psychic plants that can capture/store information from the dream.

While I agree that sylvari don’t have souls – we’ve seen none, and honestly there’s no indication that they do; same goes for any dragon minion, in fact, except those that imprison another being’s soul (such as certain high level risen) as far as we know – I disagree with this.

Malyck being why. He explicitly states, multiple times even after his apparently amnesia being discovered to not have been amnesia at all (he remembers all since awakening), that he has no ties to the Dream or Nightmare. So he is sapient without “information from the Dream”.

Furthermore, mordrem are mindless – if this was an attribute given to all minions of Mordremoth, then the mordrem would not be so.

But not all mordrem are mindless. In the mission Buried Insight in HoT story part 3, there’s a mordrem guard near the ley line flux outside Rata Novus that you can find. He makes several statements about not being able to hear Modremoth. If he was truly mindless, without Mordremoth’s overriding influence he simply wouldn’t be active. It shows that Mordremoth is an influencer and overrider rather than controlling mindless puppets.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

With mind magic you don’t need a soul. You just need psychic plants that can capture/store information from the dream.

While I agree that sylvari don’t have souls – we’ve seen none, and honestly there’s no indication that they do; same goes for any dragon minion, in fact, except those that imprison another being’s soul (such as certain high level risen) as far as we know – I disagree with this.

Malyck being why. He explicitly states, multiple times even after his apparently amnesia being discovered to not have been amnesia at all (he remembers all since awakening), that he has no ties to the Dream or Nightmare. So he is sapient without “information from the Dream”.

Furthermore, mordrem are mindless – if this was an attribute given to all minions of Mordremoth, then the mordrem would not be so..

First off remember what they told us about Djinn. “Djinn are to other elementals as humans are to other animals.” The same can be said about Sylvari vs mordrem. Sylvari are more advanced.

Second you are confused on how amnesia works.

Forgetting things before a certain date (retrograde amnesia) does not mean everything is lost.

The specific form Malyck has is common to all races.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_amnesia

“Childhookitten esia, also called infantile amnesia, is the inability of adults to retrieve episodic memories which are memories of specific events (times, places, associated emotions, and other contextual who, what, when, and where) before the age of 2–4 years, as well as the period before age 10 of which adults retain fewer memories than might otherwise be expected given the passage of time.”

Like human babies Malyck knows how to walk and talk but doesn’t remember learning those processes. He is like a normal human.

When he lost access to the dream he lost access to having been in the dream.

“The Dream is the sylvari unconscious, the wellspring from which we flow. It holds our memories, as well as our hopes and fears. I am its keeper.” – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

The Pale Tree is their programmer, their engineer. She designs their hardware, and their software. Lets call her Plant Google, giving her children fiber access and Chrome.

His amnesia is simple to explain.

• Our brains/computers don’t remember being made, but we can learn how it happened with external knowledge (books/the internet).
• Because of genetics and proprietary software there aren’t panaceas for fixing problems in humans/computing. Expecting the Pale Tree to know how to fix his dream connection is like asking Apple Technicians to repair a Windows PC.
• No internet means Malyck can’t store data in the cloud, or access his user manual.

" You just need psychic plants that can capture/store information from the dream."

Can does not mean will.

Sylvari don’t have a traditional soul. They have a fusion of plant/mind magic which is sapient. Malyck just has broken hardware that corrupted his access to external memories. Like a baby he can’t remember episodic memories of pre-awakening.

UnbentMars.9126:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

With mind magic you don’t need a soul. You just need psychic plants that can capture/store information from the dream.

While I agree that sylvari don’t have souls – we’ve seen none, and honestly there’s no indication that they do; same goes for any dragon minion, in fact, except those that imprison another being’s soul (such as certain high level risen) as far as we know – I disagree with this.

Malyck being why. He explicitly states, multiple times even after his apparently amnesia being discovered to not have been amnesia at all (he remembers all since awakening), that he has no ties to the Dream or Nightmare. So he is sapient without “information from the Dream”.

Furthermore, mordrem are mindless – if this was an attribute given to all minions of Mordremoth, then the mordrem would not be so.

But not all mordrem are mindless. In the mission Buried Insight in HoT story part 3, there’s a mordrem guard near the ley line flux outside Rata Novus that you can find. He makes several statements about not being able to hear Modremoth. If he was truly mindless, without Mordremoth’s overriding influence he simply wouldn’t be active. It shows that Mordremoth is an influencer and overrider rather than controlling mindless puppets.

You need to separate mordrem from Mordrem Guard because they are two completely different things. A mordrem is a straight up standard dragon minion. A Mordrem Guard is a sylvari who serves Mordremoth.

Mordrem Guard aren’t traditionally corrupted at all. So no, they’re not mindless, because they’re not mordrem. They are as unlike mordrem as the sylvari are (with the sole exception of being generic in looks).

Daniel Handler.4816:

First off remember what they told us about Djinn. “Djinn are to other elementals as humans are to other animals.” The same can be said about Sylvari vs mordrem. Sylvari are more advanced.

Here’s the thing. Elementals and dragon minions might not work the same. What we do know about dragon minions is for sylvari to be intelligent they’d have to all be dragon champion level creatures. Because of dragon minions, only champions and those close to are smart. And to create such, this means pumping more magic into the minions.

By claiming that they are “more advanced”, this is no different than claiming that the Pale Tree is capable of creating hundreds of thousands of near-champion level minions. Something that no other Elder Dragon has done.

You’re thus making the claim that the Pale Tree, a mere dragon champion at best, is capable of doing more than what Elder Dragons do. That seems rather fallicious.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Second you are confused on how amnesia works.

Forgetting things before a certain date (retrograde amnesia) does not mean everything is lost.

The specific form Malyck has is common to all races.

-snip-

Except he doesn’t have amnesia.

Look it up. The ones who claim Malyck has forgotten is the PC. And this claim of amnesia is only presented by and presumed by the PC because Malcyk has no memory of the Pale Tree or Dream.

The reason why he has no such memory is because he’s never been to the Pale Tree – which is what he said. The PC was simply wrong about Malyck. A conclusion driven by a false precluding belief.

The PC’s line of thought was basically:

• All sylvari come form the Pale Tree
• Malcyk is a sylvari
• Therefore, Malyck came from the Pale Tree

The only explanation for why Malyck didn’t remember the Grove under such circumstances would be because he’s forgotten (amnesia). After hearing about how he was found, the PC presumes, precludes, and proclaims that some event just before he was found caused the amnesia. It is then taken as fact by Trahearne and Caithe because why would they believe something different? Only Caithe had the knowledge that could lead to a different conclusion… and once she saw the pod she did (honesty that was a pretty big hint to the Season 2 reveal).

But if you go with Caithe, he traces his tracks back to his pod without stutter or hesitation, no moment of eureka of remembrance or pause of forgetfulness. He remembered it all. From the moment he awoke, he remembered everything.

Of course, he may have remembered even before awakening – this wasn’t covered because the Knight of Embers interrupted us.

Don’t believe me? Go read the dialogue on the wiki. Malyck never claims he cannot remember something – like where he came from. He merely states he’s never been to the Grove and doesn’t know what the Dream or Nightmare is.

Hell, how would he know where his tree was, if he didn’t remember where he came from?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Hell, how would he know where his tree was, if he didn’t remember where he came from? [snip]

Salmon remember where they came from, that doesn’t mean they remember the events of their birth. Some animals are just born knowing these things.

There are things I know you have forgotten, and you don’t even need to tell me. You don’t remember much of learning how to walk or how to talk.

Sylvari aren’t like you, or like Malyck. They remember things from pre-awakening.

Sylvari awaken when they are fully grown. Irl humans awaken when they are 2 years old.

Malyck is brain damaged. He is a disabled Sylvari who can’t access Grandma’s Scrapbook (the dream) to see all the videos of him learning how to crawl.

As for you other claims. The theory of dracono-enchantment has only been tested on non-mordremoth minions. That is major experimental error. Why would the Mind Dragon have to express intelligence the same way as the other dragons?

It would make sense that no other ED has made intelligent minions with the Dream. The other ED don’t have the ability, and the one that does can’t without losing control of them.

The very purpose of the Dream was to protect their psyche from Mordremoth. Why would he put it in his minions? And why should one of his strongest champions be unable to?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malyck is brain damaged. He is a disabled Sylvari who can’t access Grandma’s Scrapbook (the dream) to see all the videos of him learning how to crawl.

You can’t claim that. We know nothing of Malyck’s tree (literally nothing, since whatever story we might’ve gotten got cut from the main story), but perhaps Malyck’s tree doesn’t have a Dream at all. We only assume he’s like other sylvari because he look the same. Humans and norn look the same aside from a bit of height and build, but we know they aren’t compatible biologically, like a horse and a donkey to create a mule.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for you other claims. The theory of dracono-enchantment has only been tested on non-mordremoth minions. That is major experimental error. Why would the Mind Dragon have to express intelligence the same way as the other dragons?

It would make sense that no other ED has made intelligent minions with the Dream. The other ED don’t have the ability, and the one that does can’t without losing control of them.

The very purpose of the Dream was to protect their psyche from Mordremoth. Why would he put it in his minions? And why should one of his strongest champions be unable to?

You contradict yourself a bit there. Is it the Dream that grants them consciousness while protecting them from Mordremoth’s influence, or is the Dream a gift from Mordremoth, which allows some of his minions to escape while others can be claimed if they have a loose bond to the Dream and weak will? Neither scenario makes much sense unless an outside force influenced things.

Rognik.2579:

This gets into really philosophical territory. How does one define a soul? Is it merely the embodiment of a personality? Is it something more than that, something intangible that living beings have? Sylvari are all barren, and can’t produce more of their kind on their own, unlike all the other races. And yes, human ghosts are the most prevalent, partly because they were everywhere 250 years ago. Does it take that long for a ghost to manifest itself? And what exactly causes a ghost to appear? We don’t really know a lot about any of these subjects, but nothing we’ve seen from the sylvari shows that they might leave a ghost behind when it would become appropriate, so they might indeed be soulless.

In the Guild Wars context, I would consider a soul to be a seat of consciousness that can be separated from, and survive after the death of, the physical body.

It’s worth noting that in Tyria, all souls are made of magic. We’ve been told that maintaining sapience requires a certain minimum degree of magic. What seems to happen under conventional circumstances when a new sapient being is conceived is that energy gets drawn from the Mists to form a soul, and that energy returns to the Mists as a complete soul when the creature dies (unless something prevents that from happening)

Under certain circumstances, high magical concentrations can lead to the creation of sentient beings by non-biological means. Under some circumstances, djinn can be formed… although we don’t know if that’s purely because djinn form when there’s a high enough magical concentration to produce sapient elementals, or whether there’s something else going on (like a disembodied spirit inhabiting an elemental body as it forms, or the process of djinn formation somehow mimicking the conception of a sapient animal enough to trigger the creation of a soul). As far as I can recall we’ve never had an indication of what happens to a djinn’s consciousness after their physical death.

Regarding sylvari… sentient plants tend to arise in areas with high magic, but this seems to be more of a ‘more likely to evolve’ scenario. Sentient plants were pretty widespread in GW1, not just confined to regions of high magic like elementalists tended to be (although they were more concentrated in regions of high magic) which suggests that the descendants of sentient plants were sentient regardless of where they happened to be. Sapient plants might be able to trigger the generation of a soul when a new sapient plant is conceived, just like sapient animals. Daniel’s suggesting that sylvari are granted sapience through an application of mind magic, but for all we know, souls could be pretty much a construct of mind magic to begin with. It’s also worth noting that the birth of new sylvari doesn’t appear to have been affected by Mordy’s death, when one might expect that it would is the sapience of each was provided through Mordy’s mind magic.

Now, you’re right that we haven’t seen any indication of a sylvari leaving a ghost behind – but as I mentioned, sylvari have a close connection to the Dream, which might mean that they have a stronger connection to the Mists than other races. This, in turn, could mean that it’s harder for a sylvari soul to resist the pull into the Mists and remain in Tyria as a ghost. Even if that’s not the case, every nonhuman ghost I can think of, and most human ghosts except the ghost in Mt Maelstrom complaining about her body being a Risen and the ghosts of Seraph killed by centaurs that hang around on the Ascalon Settlement memorial hill, predate the Firstborn. The lack of sylvari ghosts may simply be a question of time and numbers. We see a lot of human ghosts because humans are prolific and over their history have been subject to a lot of events that can result in ghosts.

My answer is much shorter though: I do believe dragon minions have a soul, but one much more robotic or posessive than a normal human/charr/etc.
This is evident in the fact that de consciousness of a sylvari returns to the dream (pale tree) after death. So there is something that survives, but it doesn’t go to the same heaven/hell as the other races.

In regard of this, heaven/hell is already a weird concept. We know there is an afterlife, and a realm of torment, in which we see many races in GW1, but 99% of those were human. I dont recall there were any Charr or Asura in the Realm of Torment.

So the concept of soul may even vary among races. And its worth noting that the Seers, demons, demonoids, Margonites and humans all share the same ‘hell’ where the six gods dumped everything that they deemed evil.

Amaimon.7823:

This is evident in the fact that de consciousness of a sylvari returns to the dream (pale tree) after death. So there is something that survives, but it doesn’t go to the same heaven/hell as the other races.

We might have interpreted that bit of information very differently. What we know about the Dream is that sylvari who go out into the world sometimes send information back to the Dream, mere flashes of images or fragmented information. I think that’s what you’re referring to, but a sylvari doesn’t have to die to send that information. Now, I can’t back up my claim at this point, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case.

Rognik.2579:

Amaimon.7823:

This is evident in the fact that de consciousness of a sylvari returns to the dream (pale tree) after death. So there is something that survives, but it doesn’t go to the same heaven/hell as the other races.

We might have interpreted that bit of information very differently. What we know about the Dream is that sylvari who go out into the world sometimes send information back to the Dream, mere flashes of images or fragmented information. I think that’s what you’re referring to, but a sylvari doesn’t have to die to send that information. Now, I can’t back up my claim at this point, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case.

hmm.. you’re right on that part. The Dream of Dreams is the collective knowledge of the pale tree, and the experiences of her children.

Sylvari who have become silent, or have fallen into nightmare no longer contribute to the dream. Their voice does not reach the pale tree anymore. It doesn’t say if the Nightmare also archives memories/experiences of courtiers.

These are some organic functions backed by devs.
#Sylvari have a full functioning digestive system. Most of their nutrition comes from food just like any other race. Their excrement is something like mulch.
#Photosynthesis is like a meditative supplement.
#Sylvari can mate, but cannot reproduce.
#Sylvari don’t have hearts, but they have sap running through them.

I couldn’t find what happened to dead sylvari.

Actually, the Courtiers still contributes information into the Dream. That’s half the point, after all. However, they become jaded over time and thus the potential of their own experiences to feed the Nightmare diminishes over time, so they’re always looking for new recruits – still, a Courtier torturing a non-sylvari is still inputting that into the Dream.

I think the same might be true of the Soundless – their experiences still go into the Dream. Their meditations block out receiving signals from the Dream, but not what they send back. I’m not sure on that one, though – I have a vague memory that it was said somewhere, but I’m not confident on it and I’m not going to try to chase up the reference at this hour.

Sylvari have said of dead sylvari that they “return to the Dream”, but whether this is actually an afterlife or whether it’s just that their memories linger in the Dream is unclear.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Sylvari aren’t like you, or like Malyck. They remember things from pre-awakening.

Sylvari awaken when they are fully grown. Irl humans awaken when they are 2 years old.

Malyck is brain damaged. He is a disabled Sylvari who can’t access Grandma’s Scrapbook (the dream) to see all the videos of him learning how to crawl.

Here’s your problem:

You have nothing to make that claim about Malyck being “brain damaged”. The “fact” of amnesia is a false assumption from the beginning, built by the PC and proven wrong by how Malyck shows he knows everything that happened to him after he woke from his pod.

There’s no more amnesia in that then a human not remembering what the womb is like.

And to say he has amnesia because he doesn’t remember his version of being in a womb is a silly argument, and entirely unrelated to the topic at hand.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for you other claims. The theory of dracono-enchantment has only been tested on non-mordremoth minions. That is major experimental error. Why would the Mind Dragon have to express intelligence the same way as the other dragons?

You’re mistaking “mind” with “knowledge”. Mordremoth’s powers of the domain of mind have been shown to be the abilities of telepathy, mind transference (both his own and his champions’), and mind control. Not intelligence.

The Dream – which you so aptly tie to Mordremoth – is not tied to Mordremoth or his domain of mind. He is connected to it, but does not control it, just like the Pale Tree. How do we know this?

• Because there are non-sylvari/mordrem tied to the Dream,
• Because there are sylvari not tied to the Dream.
• Because no mordrem has shown ties to the Dream (beyond a vision of the Elder Dragons’ threat and symbol of a Wyld Hunt).
• Because The Dream is fighting Mordremoth.
• And so is the Nightmare fighting Mordremoth.

Just as in Tyria, in the Dream Mordremoth is little more than an invasive plant who makes its home in a land that is not his.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It would make sense that no other ED has made intelligent minions with the Dream. The other ED don’t have the ability, and the one that does can’t without losing control of them.

Every Elder Dragons’ minions have a hive mind connected directly towards the Elder Dragon. Knowledge is a one-way street in this hive mind (all the minions know, the Elder Dragon knows) but will and desire is a one-way street the other way (all minions feel the will of the Elder Dragon, which suppresses their own free will).

Icebrood, branded, and risen aren’t entirely mindless – presumably because unlike mordrem and destroyers they are corrupted living beings – but among all five lieutenants and champions are smarter than the rest.

The testing was done on risen, but we see the very same attributes shown by icebrood, branded, destroyers, and non-Mordrem Guard mordrem.

Regular mordrem have shown to be as mindless as destroyers when not directed by a dragon champion such as the Shadow of the Dragon or the Vinewrath. Or, later in HoT, by any Mordrem Guard.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The very purpose of the Dream was to protect their psyche from Mordremoth. Why would he put it in his minions? And why should one of his strongest champions be unable to?

Whoever said that Mordremoth put the Dream in his minions?

Nothing shows that Mordremoth controls the Dream any more than the Pale Tree does. He is able to communicate with sylvari through hijacking the channels of the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts, but that’s all we see him able to do within the Dream.

Plus, you’re admitting that the Dream isn’t be tied to Mordremoth’s domain of mind since its very purpose is to protect them from the Elder Dragons (not just Mordremoth, all of them – it’s heavily implied to be the source of their “immunity” to dragon corruption). You’re beginning to contradict yourself now.

draxynnic.3719:

Sylvari have said of dead sylvari that they “return to the Dream”, but whether this is actually an afterlife or whether it’s just that their memories linger in the Dream is unclear.

Those same sylvari, however, also claim that they have no proof of such and that is simply what they choose to believe (it’s a dialogue in The Grove, with a warden, I think in southern Upper Commons).

In the Personal Story, Carys talks about Tegwen going to the Mists – rather than the Dream.

Which proves that the sylvari have no clue what may happen to them upon death.

Here is more explanation over what I said.

As for you other claims. The theory of dracono-enchantment has only been tested on non-mordremoth minions. That is major experimental error. Why would the Mind Dragon have to express intelligence the same way as the other dragons?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Troll copied
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Troll

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Troll reanimated
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cave_Troll

Mordrem are more intelligent than Risen of the same level. Not because of better cloning, there is no better clone than direct reanimation, but because they can exercise mind magic. So a Mordrem troll can seemingly coordinate a swarm of insects, while his Risen counterpart just runs around vomiting and the swarm follows him.

It would make sense that no other ED has made intelligent minions with the Dream. The other ED don’t have the ability, and the one that does can’t without losing control of them.
The very purpose of the Dream was to protect their psyche from Mordremoth. Why would he put it in his minions? And why should one of his strongest champions be unable to?

Mordremoth can transfer consciousness directly. What is the dream other than a consciousness sylvari experience before awaking, and their unconsciousness afterwards?

The Pale Tree did what no other ED can, and what Mordremoth wouldn’t. She gave something else control of her minions. She knew she couldn’t protect them without the dream. But now she can’t control them either. The best she can do is modulate the transfer process so that all sylvari get basic skills. Now the dream is their hivemimd.

It’s a sad life. You know you can’t make them minions or papa will take them. So you try to steer them to do good. Then people like Scarlet come forward and you try to stop them but you can’t. Perhaps with Mordremoth gone she will make true minions rather than hardware for someone else’s operating system.

@konig the dream is in the mist because everything is in the mist. Second they don’t return to the Dream when they die, because the Dream is the conscious part they remember. But they know that their mind goes there when they die, and they know there are other parts of the Dream they haven’t seen yet.

The white stag is new to them, clearly they need to explore more of the dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Regular mordrem have shown to be as mindless as destroyers when not directed by a dragon champion such as the Shadow of the Dragon or the Vinewrath. Or, later in HoT, by any Mordrem Guard.

I think it’s called out early in HoT – in the instance where you defend the Itzel village, I think – that the Mordrem Guard are more dangerous than previous Mordrem (although the Itzel don’t use the term) because they’re smarter and more organised. They obey Mordremoth, but they have the tactical flexibility to decide how they carry out those orders.

I think there are indications in the Personal Story or in dialogues in Orr that the human Orrian Risen, with the exception of farmers and a few others, are smarter than the regular Thralls, Brutes and Abominations you typically see elsewhere. This may partly be a function of ‘more champions around to organise them’, but it does seem likely that a more magical Risen like a Risen Wizard was given more thinking capacity than a Brute, even if by game mechanics the former is still a regular mob.

draxynnic.3719:

Sylvari have said of dead sylvari that they “return to the Dream”, but whether this is actually an afterlife or whether it’s just that their memories linger in the Dream is unclear.

Those same sylvari, however, also claim that they have no proof of such and that is simply what they choose to believe (it’s a dialogue in The Grove, with a warden, I think in southern Upper Commons).

In the Personal Story, Carys talks about Tegwen going to the Mists – rather than the Dream.

Which proves that the sylvari have no clue what may happen to them upon death.

Yeah, I meant to put something in there to the extent that it seems to be their belief with no direct evidence to it, but clearly it slipped my mind.

Still, I think this is a case where absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Daniel Handler.4816:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Troll copied
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Troll

As an aside, the mordrem trolls are one of the rare cases (one of two known, the other being wolves) where the bodies were corrupted rather than being copies. Scott McGough confirmed this in a forum post.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Mordrem are more intelligent than Risen of the same level. Not because of better cloning, there is no better clone than direct reanimation, but because they can exercise mind magic. So a Mordrem troll can seemingly coordinate a swarm of insects, while his Risen counterpart just runs around vomiting and the swarm follows him.

There is in fact no indication that mordrem are more intelligent than risen.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Mordremoth can transfer consciousness directly. What is the dream other than a consciousness sylvari experience before awaking, and their unconsciousness afterwards?

The Dream is not a consciousness. It is a mindscape, as Rytlock puts it. It is not their unconsciousness after awake in any form at all, either. It would be closer to a server with sylvari being computers that download from the server when first turning on, but only upload to the server afterwards.

This isn’t a consciousness or a hive mind. Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon (page 120) even explicitly states that it isn’t a hive mind, despite constant arguments by players otherwise – and I think a sylvari would have a good idea of what their mind is attached to. Good enough, at least, to know it isn’t a hive mind (though Trahearne does state that no sylvari know what the Dream really is – would be curious to know if this has changed).

Furthermore, a mere shared consciousness would not be capable of foreseeing the future, such as we experience during A Light in the Darkness.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The Pale Tree did what no other ED can, and what Mordremoth wouldn’t. She gave something else control of her minions. She knew she couldn’t protect them without the dream. But now she can’t control them either. The best she can do is modulate the transfer process so that all sylvari get basic skills. Now the dream is their hivemimd.

Per above, the Dream is not a hive mind.

Furthermore, the Dream doesn’t have control over anything.

You’re also going back and forth. Be clear: is the Dream part of Mordremoth’s domain of mind, in your argument, or is it not? One line you’re acting like it is, the next you’re acting like it isn’t.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@konig the dream is in the mist because everything is in the mist.

That’s one hell of a massive misnomer.

The Mists is origin of all things and surrounds all things, but the mortal world is not “within the Mists” by any NPC’s standard. The Mists, or the Spirit Realm, does overlap with Tyria but is distinctly not Tyria. Just look at any demon lore and that’s all about how they want to escape the Mists by entering worlds such as Tyria.

The Mists is akin to outer space in regards to location – Earth is surrounded by outer space… does that mean we, being on Earth, are in outer space?

No. And the same fundamental value goes for the Mists and Tyria.

Whether the Dream is within the Mists or elsewhere is yet to be seen.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Second they don’t return to the Dream when they die, because the Dream is the conscious part they remember.

Says nothing ever.

Daniel Handler.4816:

But they know that their mind goes there when they die, and they know there are other parts of the Dream they haven’t seen yet.

Except the singular NPC that ever talks about the Dream in relation to a sylvari’s death explicitly states that she doesn’t know.

The exact lines are:

Warden: It’s a good day to return to the dream.
Warden (2): What do you mean?
Warden: When a warrior says, “It’s a good day to return to the Dream,” it means it’s a good day to die.
Warden (2): I see. How do you know we return to the Dream when we die.
Warden: I don’t. It’s just wishful thinking.
Warden (2): Oh. Then, I won’t wish you a good day.

@Drax: I never stated – nor meant to imply – that all non-dragon champion minions are of equal intelligence (I even said that those which are corrupted bodies not completely mindless – this goes even for risen thrall, with their ability to think).

I was merely stating that sylvari are all much more intelligent than even your average risen wizard, which is in turn smarter than your average mordrem.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The Pale Tree did what no other ED can, and what Mordremoth wouldn’t. She gave something else control of her minions. She knew she couldn’t protect them without the dream. But now she can’t control them either. The best she can do is modulate the transfer process so that all sylvari get basic skills. Now the dream is their hivemimd.

It’s a sad life. You know you can’t make them minions or papa will take them. So you try to steer them to do good. Then people like Scarlet come forward and you try to stop them but you can’t. Perhaps with Mordremoth gone she will make true minions rather than hardware for someone else’s operating system.

My impression is that she genuinely doesn’t want minions – she wants children.

Like any good parent, she wants her children to think for themselves, but will express her disapproval if they behave in a manner that hurts the family as a whole.

@konig

• You are right I am getting ahead of myself. Not all Mordrem are more intelligent but some clearly are.
• Yes the dream is in Mordremoth sphere of influence, (his domain) and we see him influencing Wyld Hunts.
• Just because you have influence over something doesn’t mean you will use it. Reanimation that returns the original soul (and will) are part of Death Magic yet we don’t see Zhaitan doing that. Primordius doesn’t use divine fire but makes his minions immune to it.
• Similarly Mordremoth could attach the dream to his minions and weaken his influence over them. But he doesn’t.

As for unconsciousness the pale tree clearly says:
“The Dream is the sylvari unconscious, the wellspring from which we flow. It holds our memories, as well as our hopes and fears. I am its keeper.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

Hive mind isn’t the best word. Perhaps server is. Still there is an element of control.

Let’s run with the server idea.

• window domain: Sylvan
• domain controller: Pale Tree
• all computers have default account for their type
• all have the C-onciousness drive that backs up to a D-ream drive.
• D$ shared network backed up to cloud (dream proper)
• D$ sharing is disabled for soundless and nightmarers

I could go on.

There are enough starting conditions to consider it control.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You are right I am getting ahead of myself. Not all Mordrem are more intelligent but some clearly are.

But most show to be no more intelligent than your average destroyer.

Those that are more intelligent are like drax mentioned with the risen wizards, or that I mentioned: the more magic they have, the smarter they are. This is the same for all dragon minions. Mordrem are no exception – the only exception is sylvari, and in turn the Mordrem Guard.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Yes the dream is in Mordremoth sphere of influence, (his domain) and we see him influencing Wyld Hunts.

Nothing actually indicates that the Dream is part of his domain, let alone his creation or under his control. The fact that the Dream sends Wyld Hunts to kill Mordremoth in fact indicates that the Dream is neither his creation nor under his control.

He is capable of hijacking the Dream, but this may be more caused by him having a connection to it just as the Pale Tree and White Stag (which is noticeably not related to Mordremoth) do.

Unfortunately, we still do not know what the nature of the Dream is, or why those three individuals have a tie to the Dream while Malyck and, it seems, his tree does not.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Just because you have influence over something doesn’t mean you will use it. Reanimation that returns the original soul (and will) are part of Death Magic yet we don’t see Zhaitan doing that. Primordius doesn’t use divine fire but makes his minions immune to it.

I have no idea what your point here is, and there is nothing in game that relates Primordus to divine fire let alone his minions being immune to it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Similarly Mordremoth could attach the dream to his minions and weaken his influence over them. But he doesn’t.

Why would it weaken his influence over them? The Dream doesn’t really do anything and if anything is the sole reason why Mordremoth has influence over the Mordrem Guard – which certainly do not have a weakened influence from Mordremoth because of it (all indication is that, as I said, the Dream is the only reason why Mordremoth has any influence at all).

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for unconsciousness the pale tree clearly says:
“The Dream is the sylvari unconscious, the wellspring from which we flow. It holds our memories, as well as our hopes and fears. I am its keeper.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

I’m pretty sure she’s meaning that metaphorically since in the very same instance Trahearne states:

The Dream is not reality, <Character name>. It is made of memory, aether, and powerful magic. Even I do not understand it.

And in Hearts and Minds, Rytlock calls it a mindscape (defined as: A mental or psychological scene or area of the imagination); though what’s interesting is that specifically he says he’s had enough of being in mindscapes (an oft overlooked hint at what happened to him in the Mists).

A subconsciousness is less than what we see it described as. And a mere subconscious cannot show the future.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There are enough starting conditions to consider it control.

If it truly was control, then there’d be no rebelling against it in either the form of the Soundless or falling to Nightmare.

Sylvari are fully capable of ignoring Wyld Hunts, even.

The only thing that the Dream has absolute over is receiving memories which actually isn’t all that absolute because of the Soundless.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

You are right I am getting ahead of myself. Not all Mordrem are more intelligent but some clearly are.

But most show to be no more intelligent than your average destroyer.

Those that are more intelligent are like drax mentioned with the risen wizards, or that I mentioned: the more magic they have, the smarter they are. This is the same for all dragon minions. Mordrem are no exception – the only exception is sylvari, and in turn the Mordrem Guard.

Don’t downplay the exceptions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Yes the dream is in Mordremoth sphere of influence, (his domain) and we see him influencing Wyld Hunts.

Nothing actually indicates that the Dream is part of his domain, let alone his creation or under his control. The fact that the Dream sends Wyld Hunts to kill Mordremoth in fact indicates that the Dream is neither his creation nor under his control.

He is capable of hijacking the Dream, but this may be more caused by him having a connection to it just as the Pale Tree and White Stag (which is noticeably not related to Mordremoth) do.

This is a contradiction. The sphere of “influence” is not called a sphere of control. Being in something’s domain does not mean you necessarily control it. Moreover, I did a disservice by using the word Domain for simplicity. In game lore has apparently never used Domain when describing the spheres, and neither should I. Because of the Sphere of Mind Mordremoth and the Pale Tree can access the Dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Unfortunately, we still do not know what the nature of the Dream is, or why those three individuals have a tie to the Dream while Malyck and, it seems, his tree does not.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Just because you have influence over something doesn’t mean you will use it. Reanimation that returns the original soul (and will) are part of Death Magic yet we don’t see Zhaitan doing that. Primordius doesn’t use divine fire but makes his minions immune to it.

I have no idea what your point here is, and there is nothing in game that relates Primordus to divine fire let alone his minions being immune to it.

The one about Primordius is mostly mechanics. Guardians use divine fire, Destroyers are immune to burning caused by Elementalists or Guardians. We don’t see any Destroyers using divine fire. Does this mean the Fire sphere of influence doesn’t extend to divine fire? Possibly. But that would separate fire and divine fire, and not explain the blanket immunity (other than of course its game mechanics)

Zhaitan could resurrect people with their original souls and will intact. There is certainly a precedent in death magic for giving something free will.
He could just let Mazdak be as in control as the Kurzick Juggernauts get to be. But he didn’t because that would be stupid.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Similarly Mordremoth could attach the dream to his minions and weaken his influence over them. But he doesn’t.

Why would it weaken his influence over them? The Dream doesn’t really do anything and if anything is the sole reason why Mordremoth has influence over the Mordrem Guard – which certainly do not have a weakened influence from Mordremoth because of it (all indication is that, as I said, the Dream is the only reason why Mordremoth has any influence at all).

As you said:

Basically, given this and various dialogue in Season 2, the Pale Tree is capable of protecting the sylvari via the Dream/Nightmare. However, there are loopholes in that protection which Mordremoth is utilizing (Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts) now that he’s awake.

Why would Mordremoth use his influence to protect his minions from himself?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for unconsciousness the pale tree clearly says:
“The Dream is the sylvari unconscious, the wellspring from which we flow. It holds our memories, as well as our hopes and fears. I am its keeper.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

I’m pretty sure she’s meaning that metaphorically since in the very same instance Trahearne states:

The Dream is not reality, <Character name>. It is made of memory, aether, and powerful magic. Even I do not understand it.

Neither of those statements contradict each other. Explain what you mean.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Don’t downplay the exceptions.

The problem with “the exceptions” is that the sylvari are unlike mordrem entirely.

They are unique to any dragon minion on multiple fronts – not just intelligence. They are an exception that should be ignored because they are outliers. If you take scientific data you do not look at the outliers and go “there is the proof that this is the norm!” You look at them and go “this can happen, but are not the norm”.

Daniel Handler.4816:

This is a contradiction. The sphere of “influence” is not called a sphere of control. Being in something’s domain does not mean you necessarily control it. Moreover, I did a disservice by using the word Domain for simplicity. In game lore has apparently never used Domain when describing the spheres, and neither should I. Because of the Sphere of Mind Mordremoth and the Pale Tree can access the Dream.

When you’re saying that the Dream is the hive mind for Mordremoth’s dragon minions, it is a matter of control.

But you, still, do not take into the account that beings outside of the sphere of influence (mind), such as the White Stag, can access the Dream.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The one about Primordius is mostly mechanics. Guardians use divine fire, Destroyers are immune to burning caused by Elementalists or Guardians. We don’t see any Destroyers using divine fire. Does this mean the Fire sphere of influence doesn’t extend to divine fire? Possibly. But that would separate fire and divine fire, and not explain the blanket immunity (other than of course its game mechanics)

Zhaitan could resurrect people with their original souls and will intact. There is certainly a precedent in death magic for giving something free will.
He could just let Mazdak be as in control as the Kurzick Juggernauts get to be. But he didn’t because that would be stupid.

1. Guardians do not use divine fire. Guardian fire is blue. Divine fire is white/gold.
2. Zhaitan doesn’t resurrect people. And the only soul intact is the Keeper of the Shrine and King Reza – that we see. No will is left in tact, just memories, because even the dragon champions’ wills are enslaved to Zhaitan.
3. No dragon minion – risen or otherwise – has free will; the only ones that do are the Pale Tree and her sylvari, Malyck, and Glint and her offspring.
4. There is no precedence of death magic giving free will. If anything, the precedence is for removing it (see necromancer minions) or leaving it untouched.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As you said:

-snip quote-

Why would Mordremoth use his influence to protect his minions from himself?

You’re misunderstanding what I was saying. To bulletpoint it:

• The Dream seems to prevent traditional corruption. Thus, sylvari cannot become risen-sylvari, branded-sylvari, or mordrem-sylvari.
• Mordremoth, via his tie to the Dream for unknown reasons, is capable of “bypassing” this “immunity” via the channels of Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunts. Doing this allows Mordremoth to implant thoughts into sylvari minds.
• Only willpower can protect sylvari when Mordremoth does this, to discern the difference between their thoughts and the implanted thoughts, and to resist the constant temptation.

The Dream does not purify, it merely resists corruption. Therefore, already traditionally corrupted mordrem would not be disconnected from Mordremoth, but instead would have a different avenue of connection and could not be corrupted by other Elder Dragons.

Basically, the Dream in regards to dragon corruption is akin to the Blue Orb – the Blue Orb didn’t harm, destroy, or purify the risen that went near it, it merely prevented the creation of risen around itself.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Neither of those statements contradict each other. Explain what you mean.

If you had kept on reading…

A subconsciousness is less than what we see it described as. And a mere subconscious cannot show the future.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The one about Primordius is mostly mechanics. Guardians use divine fire, Destroyers are immune to burning caused by Elementalists or Guardians. We don’t see any Destroyers using divine fire. Does this mean the Fire sphere of influence doesn’t extend to divine fire? Possibly. But that would separate fire and divine fire, and not explain the blanket immunity (other than of course its game mechanics).

The different types of fire are almost certainly separated, though.

The blue fire of guardians is likely a descendant of Smiting prayers from monks, the various skills that inflict Burning from paragons, and, possibly, some of the Mysticism skills from dervishes. Out of that group, there are many skills that inflict Burning, but only one (Zealot’s Fire) actually inflicted fire-type damage (unless delivered through a fire weapon). If we still had damage types in GW2, then guardian magic would probably be a mix of holy and ritualist-style lightning.

Both are capable of starting fires, but the baseline effect is something different to fire, even if it manifests as something that looks similar to fire. Destroyers (traditional ones, anyway) had no special resistance to holy or lightning, but are immune to burning regardless of the ignition source.

So, guardian fire – which, in order to generalise, I’m going to call ‘holy fire’ – is something different to regular fire as conjured by elementalists and the like. It still has the ability to create heat and set things on fire, but as a secondary effect. (The outlier is the GW1 version of Zealot’s Fire, as discussed above. However, this could be seen as being a secondary effect, with those taking damage from Zealot’s Fire are taking damage from a wave of heat emanating from a pulse of holy fire, not coming into direct contact with it. A similar effect may have been happening with monk wands and staves that dealt fire damage.)

Divine fire is also distinct from holy fire. No playable profession is able to wield divine fire through their own magic – it’s something associated with the gods and the Forgotten. It’s possible that divine fire is closely related to holy fire: the Exalted mention that “the preservation magic of the Forgotten is anathema to the Mordrem”, and guardian magic is generally believed to fall within the realm of Preservation based on the old schools. However, divine fire is something more powerful and is able to do things that holy fire can’t. If Guild Wars 1 still had damage types, there might be hints as to a possible connection (such as holy fire-type skills doing more damage to Mordrem) but since we don’t have that mechanic any more we can’t tell.

Other sources of burning, such as Dhuumfire and whatever torch-wielding mesmers do, might also be distinct.

The bottom line is that there are multiple sources of burning that aren’t fire. In the real world, a fire can be started by electricity, concentrated light, certain chemicals coming into contact with one another, and possibly other causes apart from another fire or simple heat. Many of these sources would not be classified as ‘fire’ in Guild Wars terms, but are still capable of leading to something catching on fire (the Burning condition) as a secondary effect. Once something catches fire, though, it’s ordinary, non-magical fire, regardless of the original source… hence why baseline Destroyers have a blanket immunity. The source of the Burning condition might be something the Destroyer is resistant to (regular fire – according to lore they’re immune to that too, as seen in Edge of Destiny, but in game mechanics this was represented by high armour against fire in GW1 and not at all when it comes to direct damage in GW2), has no special resistance or vulnerability to (lightning, holy) or may even be vulnerable to (imagine if Alkar’s Alchemical Acid was mixed with something pyrophoric) – but whatever the source, once it becomes ordinary flame as represented by the Burning condition, they don’t care.

(The new Destroyers do appear to be able to be set on fire, possibly because they now have parts which are damaged by fire rather than being composed of lava and heat-resistant rocks.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You’re misunderstanding what I was saying. To bulletpoint it:

• The Dream seems to prevent traditional corruption. Thus, sylvari cannot become risen-sylvari, branded-sylvari, or mordrem-sylvari.
• Mordremoth, via his tie to the Dream for unknown reasons, is capable of “bypassing” this “immunity” via the channels of Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunts. Doing this allows Mordremoth to implant thoughts into sylvari minds.
• Only willpower can protect sylvari when Mordremoth does this, to discern the difference between their thoughts and the implanted thoughts, and to resist the constant temptation.

I’m with you on most of your arguments in this matter, but I’m pretty sure you’re making an error in assumption here. Until the Ember Bay destroyers, there was no evidence of any dragon minions contaminating each other. So if one of the mordrem in Iron Marches were to wander into the Brand, say, and they tried to do whatever Branded do to convert them (encapsulate them in crystal, I presume from what we see), it would be as effective as Zhaitan trying to bring a sylvari back as a risen.

My working theory is that Mordremoth and the Dream are linked in some way. Perhaps it was his original communication method with his sylvari-minions before whatever disruption affected the tree and morphed from a “mind collective” to the Dream. It seems really weird that a purifying ritual would create such a protection field yet leave an easily-exploitable back door. When Kralkatorrik came to fight Glint, there was no way for him/it to regain control of her, after all.

The Wyld/Dark Hunts are not the means Mordremoth got to the sylvari, it was the Dream itself. Part of my argument for that is that the Soundless were the first ones to fall to Mordremoth’s call when they came close enough. What the Hunts actually are hasn’t really been explained, but I bet it’s not just because they wanted a way for some sylvari to fall prey to Mordremoth again.

As for the arguments for willpower, it’s true that it does play a factor, but we didn’t really see enough sylvari struggle to know if only those still in the Dream (or fallen to Nightmare) were able to resist, or if a supremely strong-willed Soundless sylvari could fend off Mordremoth’s call. My bet is on no, that the Dream – even if it’s been twisted into Nightmare – offered some means to fend off control.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

[snip]

Neither of those statements contradict each other. Explain what you mean.

If you had kept on reading…

A subconsciousness is less than what we see it described as. And a mere subconscious cannot show the future.

I did keep on reading and gave a second response to the second half ( because i went over 5000 with the first) but the forum seems to have eaten it.

From what I can remember I brought up this.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Living-World-S2E7-Seeds-of-Truth-SPOILERS/page/2#post4606542

I was operating under the concept that the Dream provided a D$ shared network for memory access. Sylvari would feel big uploads even though they couldn’t access them. However that appears to not be the case, the death of Riannoc was not felt automatically. But this only means the hive mind does not contain peer to peer interactions.

Control is not just about making people do things, but preventing them from doing other things.

They can’t turn it off. The Nightmare is still part of the Dream. And the Soundless can be spoken to if the PT tries hard enough. All that happens with the Soundless is automatic windows updates are turned off and the PC becomes more vulnerable to being hacked.
__________________________________________________________________

Now as for your new reply.

A network of PCs can back up files to the same FTP, that doesn’t mean the FTP is the entire internet.

Those with the Mind Sphere of Influence can access the Internet (Dream).

Access is not omniscience. Mordremoth knows as much about the White Stag as Primordius can sense whenever an Elementalist enters fire attunement.

Also I don’t know what you science you are operating under. You discount outliers in data, not outliers in species. Just because a platypus is weird doesn’t mean it doesn’t deserve classification. And by your logic humans are not primates because they have abilities not seen in any other animal.

Unless this is a case of true speciation, radioactive goop, or the Sylvari are actually X-men, then they are also Mordrem. This is the most likely of cases from what we know.
The Pale Tree can access the Dream. And Mordremoth can access the Dream. Mordremoth can transfer consciousness. The Pale Tree can transfer knowledge with the Dream.

It is stretching it to assume the Pale Tree’s access to the Dream came from the Forsaken. Sylvari are just uncorrupted plants that are tied to the Dream.

Can Mordremoth not create corrupted Sylvari with the same amount of extra intelligence from the dream?

Are the ED unable to create uncorrupted things?

Why doesn’t Zhaitan play nice and reanimate people with their soul and will intact?
Why doesn’t Jormag make skating rinks?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are the ED unable to create uncorrupted things?

I doubt that they can, but even if they could, why would they? Their purpose (as far as we can tell) is to collect all the ambient magic in the world, and fall asleep after it has had enough. So what if a few mortal beings get killed in the process? They’re replaceable, and most have some of that yummy magic on their person! Usually not enough to count as more than just a morsel, but every little bit counts.

So counterargument: why would an ED create something free of their corruption?

Rognik.2579:

Until the Ember Bay destroyers, there was no evidence of any dragon minions contaminating each other.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Subject_Alpha
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kudu
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kudu's_Monster

And with Ember Bay, I don’t think anyone can argue that “dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other Elder Dragons”. Doesn’t mean Elder Dragons will do that – Subject Alpha shows that it’s simply put not a good idea since it controls the minions of all corruptions it’s influenced by (mordrem, risen, icebrood, destroyer, and branded) – but it shows that they can.

Rognik.2579:

So if one of the mordrem in Iron Marches were to wander into the Brand, say, and they tried to do whatever Branded do to convert them (encapsulate them in crystal, I presume from what we see), it would be as effective as Zhaitan trying to bring a sylvari back as a risen.

Except that it wouldn’t be, because mordrem are not tied to the Dream as far as we know.

If the mordrem are, then yes it would be. But if a risen were to have wandered into the Dragonbrand, the story would be different.

It may even be a different story if Malyck went into the Dragonbrand and got struct by a corrupting crystal.

Rognik.2579:

My working theory is that Mordremoth and the Dream are linked in some way. Perhaps it was his original communication method with his sylvari-minions before whatever disruption affected the tree and morphed from a “mind collective” to the Dream. It seems really weird that a purifying ritual would create such a protection field yet leave an easily-exploitable back door. When Kralkatorrik came to fight Glint, there was no way for him/it to regain control of her, after all.

The Wyld/Dark Hunts are not the means Mordremoth got to the sylvari, it was the Dream itself. Part of my argument for that is that the Soundless were the first ones to fall to Mordremoth’s call when they came close enough. What the Hunts actually are hasn’t really been explained, but I bet it’s not just because they wanted a way for some sylvari to fall prey to Mordremoth again.

As for the arguments for willpower, it’s true that it does play a factor, but we didn’t really see enough sylvari struggle to know if only those still in the Dream (or fallen to Nightmare) were able to resist, or if a supremely strong-willed Soundless sylvari could fend off Mordremoth’s call. My bet is on no, that the Dream – even if it’s been twisted into Nightmare – offered some means to fend off control.

The major issue about the Dream being linked to Mordremoth – especially as Mordremoth owning, controling, or creating the Dream in some way – is that the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts actively send sylvari to fight not just other Elder Dragons, but Mordremoth himself. At the end of The World Summit, sylvari PCs state they have a new Wyld Hunt: to kill Mordremoth.

And no one and nothing says that the Dream purifies anything. In fact, evidence points to that not being the case. Like the Blue Orb – as I mentioned previously – it seems to prevent corruption, not purify it.

About Kralkatorrik corrupting Glint again – fun fact: Glint had dozens of defenses established in Guild Wars 1, defenses she created. Not a one was seen during that battle with Kralkatorrik. And curiously, while Mordremoth was able to take control of sylvari via indirect non-traditional corrupting means, he did no such thing to the Pale Tree. It is entirely possible that the creations of those purified are not (fully) protected from re-corruption while those which are purified are.

As for the final bit – I said it was the combination, not just willpower alone, that seems to be the defining defense against Mordremoth.

It should also be noted that there are very few Soundless overall – they are fewer in number than the Nightmare Courtiers and they make up ~15% of the sylvari population.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Subject_Alpha
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kudu
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kudu's_Monster

Artificially fused dragon corrupted minions. I never said that the corruption couldn’t exist in one body, especially given the new destroyers, just that one template is not written onto another, at least not by the dragons.

And with Ember Bay, I don’t think anyone can argue that “dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other Elder Dragons”.

Actually, that’s my exact argument. Perhaps it’s flawed, but I don’t see anyone disproving it to my satisfaction.

Except that it wouldn’t be, because mordrem are not tied to the Dream as far as we know.

…

And no one and nothing says that the Dream purifies anything.

And once again you missed my point. I’m not claiming the Dream does the purification, but is the remnants of the purification act left on the Tree and her children.

The major issue about the Dream being linked to Mordremoth – especially as Mordremoth owning, controling, or creating the Dream in some way – is that the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts actively send sylvari to fight not just other Elder Dragons, but Mordremoth himself. At the end of The World Summit, sylvari PCs state they have a new Wyld Hunt: to kill Mordremoth.

As I said, my theory isn’t perfect or flawless. It’s still a working theory, and the Hunts are an unexplained detail. It makes more sense to me that the Hunts were initially tied to Mordremoth’s desire, that he’d give them missions for them to go off to do or die trying. When whatever purified the Tree/Deam did what it did, it could’ve flipped the script around and instead sent the sylvari after the dragons instead of flesh-bags.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The major issue about the Dream being linked to Mordremoth – especially as Mordremoth owning, controling, or creating the Dream in some way – is that the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts actively send sylvari to fight not just other Elder Dragons, but Mordremoth himself. At the end of The World Summit, sylvari PCs state they have a new Wyld Hunt: to kill Mordremoth..

You keep messing up the order. I am trying to be clear about what I mean. I’ll try again.

The Dream is linked to Mordremoth as much as the Internet is linked to my computer.

It is better to say:
Mordremoth is linked to the Dream.
The Pale Tree is linked to the Dream
The White Stag is linked to the Dream.
My computer is linked to the Internet.

As long as a PC is connected to the Internet it can update its firewall.
Soundless are Sylvari who saw that annoying automatic windows update and disabled it. Now its easier to hack their PC.
Mordremoth can influence the Dream. And I can influence the Internet. I am doing it right now typing this response.

Do I control the Internet?

I never specified that Mordremoth owned, controlled, or created the Dream.
Instead of opening his minions up to Hunts he keeps them on a private server, just like the CIA having a network that cannot connect to the internet as a security measure.

Moreover you keep mentioning the Blue Orb analogy and evidence, please explain.

From my current perspective there are no Mordrem connected to the Dream. And only one has been guested in. Guesting is not the same type of connected given that she can send anyone in through portals. It is odd that there are not more Mordrem like the Sylvari.

You would think if there was an Elder Dragon of Animals he would create a large number of humans.

Rognik.2579:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are the ED unable to create uncorrupted things?

I doubt that they can, but even if they could, why would they? Their purpose (as far as we can tell) is to collect all the ambient magic in the world, and fall asleep after it has had enough. So what if a few mortal beings get killed in the process? They’re replaceable, and most have some of that yummy magic on their person! Usually not enough to count as more than just a morsel, but every little bit counts.

So counterargument: why would an ED create something free of their corruption?

YES that is what I have been trying to say that whole time.

If the Dream allows things to resist the influence of an ED. Why would Mordremoth connect his creatures to it.

The PC says the Mordrem Guard are different to regular Mordrem – less mindless and more dangerous. Throughout Season 2, there’s nothing indicating that, apart from being plant-based, the Mordrem are any different to other dragon minions in the eyes of those with the experience to recognise those things – it’s the sylvari/Mordrem Guard that are different to the regular Mordrem, it’s not that all Mordrem are different in behaviour to the minions of other dragons.

We also see differences in how the dragon exercises control. Branded in Edge of Destiny are autonomous: the corruption basically places “serve the dragons” and “destroy/corrupt those that don’t serve the dragon” as the primary loyalty of those corrupted. Corrupted beings that retain sapience largely behave as they did in life, except that they are utterly loyal to the dragon and cannot conceive of why anybody would want to resist the dragon. This holds true regardless of whether the dragon is present, absent, or in the case of Risen in Arah explorable, outright destroyed.

Sylvari/Mordrem Guard, on the other hand, don’t have this behaviour. Mordrem Guard aren’t corrupted, they’re basically mind-controlled. Sylvari under the influence of Mordremoth can resist, and even Mordrem Guard can potentially stop and reconsider if the mind-controlling signal from Mordremoth is somehow blocked. The barky armour of Mordrem Guard is consistent with lore we’ve already been given on the sylvari – they can change their appearance based on their circumstances, and can grow their own clothing and armour. The Mordrem Guard’s appearance is not the result of corruption per se, but because Mordremoth is pushing them to commit totally to becoming a soldier in his army.

Whatever protection the sylvari have, Mordremoth isn’t able to get around it. He’s not corrupting the sylvari into regular mordrem. He’s using his domain over mind to influence them mentally, in a similar manner (albeit on a much bigger scale) to things we’ve seen some Nightmare Court mesmers do to skritt. Obviously, sylvari are more vulnerable to that, but it does seem that the cleansing process leaves some link to the dragon – Glint, for instance, was able to sense Kralkatorrik’s coming in Edge of Destiny. It stands to reason that Mordremoth could use this link to more easily influence sylvari minds than the minds of, say, humans.

What with ghost minions? ghost necromancers summon ghost minions? or Draithor that centaur in kessex hill summon minions in spectral from. So pure flesh minions, spectral like between and ghost minions. I would ask Bria for some info about necromancy.

About Palawa Yoko undeads – remember them being trained. The more rooten the more stupid they were. But there is threshold when that undead won’t even have, yet they were trained. I have no info if training was successful, but I think training had no meaning in how those undead behave. Its about Palawa Yoko – when he is around he is commander and he order so every thing is as he wish, when he is no around its crumble, but it not case of distance/weakening of magic, but becouse of his view – w/o me it will crumble. His undead remaining “will” / “personalities” is also part of his will – not order mindless, but degrade those with mind to his mindless tools, observing that degradation, destruction, disintegration.
Remember Mad King candy corns attack on bone palace. I would compare those two.
Mad King starved krytans and made many bloody deed, he was cut and that one as spirit continue doing things in his way and death was never end to it.
Palawa Yoko is surely responsible for many things and death wasn’t end for doing things in his way, he remained as dead in world of mortals.
Mad King maybe visit world to sow madness and fear among mortals, becouse what madness and fear would mean if they would be gated to one of underworld realms.
He visited Palawa Yoko – I would say that: Yoko is sane and have no fear of death and secondly Yoko is example that death don’t need to be gated only to underworld. So there he can have some favor in eyes of Grenth.
To end – Dhuum would never agree on rezzing death, yet he was defeated and imprisioned by Grenth and his knights. Ofc it doesn’t mean he must be his exact opposite, but it can be some lore to introduce as to friendly or even playable undead.

Rognik.2579:

Artificially fused dragon corrupted minions. I never said that the corruption couldn’t exist in one body, especially given the new destroyers, just that one template is not written onto another, at least not by the dragons.

Technically speaking the Elder Dragons corrupt “artificially” too. It’s not an innate thing but an active magical use. Whether it’s done by corrupting breath or done via a laser beam holding the same, unchanged, corrupting energies doesn’t matter much.

Rognik.2579:

And with Ember Bay, I don’t think anyone can argue that “dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other Elder Dragons”.

Actually, that’s my exact argument. Perhaps it’s flawed, but I don’t see anyone disproving it to my satisfaction.

We see multiple dragon corruptions inside multiple subjects both done by Inquest and done by Primordus. How does that not disprove “dragon minions cannot have multiple dragon energies in them”?

Rognik.2579:

And once again you missed my point. I’m not claiming the Dream does the purification, but is the remnants of the purification act left on the Tree and her children.

If it were the remnants of a purification act, then Malyck (and his tree) would have the Dream too, while the White Stag and Mordremoth would not.

Rognik.2579:

As I said, my theory isn’t perfect or flawless. It’s still a working theory, and the Hunts are an unexplained detail. It makes more sense to me that the Hunts were initially tied to Mordremoth’s desire, that he’d give them missions for them to go off to do or die trying. When whatever purified the Tree/Deam did what it did, it could’ve flipped the script around and instead sent the sylvari after the dragons instead of flesh-bags.

But the Wyld Hunts come from the Dream. That’s more than just “flipping the script” – and not all Wyld Hunts focus on the Elder Dragons. Some send folks on diplomatic missions, others to aid groups in need of it. The PC’s first Wyld Hunt is to find the White Stag, help Tiachern/Ysvelta, or battle the Green Huntsman. The Knight of Ember’s Dark Hunt is to find Malyck’s secret. These have nothing to do with the Elder Dragons.

And why would Mordremoth need Wyld Hunts/Dark Hunts to send minions that can feel his will and desire on missions?

Daniel Handler.4816:

I never specified that Mordremoth owned, controlled, or created the Dream.

You originally were saying that the Dream is the mordrem/sylvari hive mind, which would mean originating from Mordremoth who’d be the owner of the hive mind.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Moreover you keep mentioning the Blue Orb analogy and evidence, please explain.

Both prevent corruption. Neither reverts corruption. A corrupted individual standing near the Blue Orb has no changes to it – a corrupted individual tied to the Dream has no changes to it.

You are acting as if the Dream is a purifying force, like the spell the Forgotten used on Glint. This is not true. There would be no reason for Mordremoth to not connect his minions to the Dream if he could.

Daniel Handler.4816:

From my current perspective there are no Mordrem connected to the Dream. And only one has been guested in. Guesting is not the same type of connected given that she can send anyone in through portals. It is odd that there are not more Mordrem like the Sylvari.

Exactly my point.

Daniel Handler.4816:

YES that is what I have been trying to say that whole time.

If the Dream allows things to resist the influence of an ED. Why would Mordremoth connect his creatures to it.

The Dream allows non-corrupted things to resist.

That’s what you’re missing.

The Shadow of the Dragon still worked for Mordremoth, unabated, while it was in the Dream just as afterwards. The sole case of a Mordrem tied to the Dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I never specified that Mordremoth owned, controlled, or created the Dream.

You originally were saying that the Dream is the mordrem/sylvari hive mind, which would mean originating from Mordremoth who’d be the owner of the hive mind.

No that is not what it would mean.
The owner of the hive mind is the Dream. Just like the owner of the Internet is the Internet. The Sylvari are just part of domain of devices, with the Pale Tree being the domain controller. It may not be the traditional hive mind, but it is still a network.

The CIA has a network of PCs that aren’t connected to the internet, they do this for security reasons.
Similarly Mordremoth has a network of Mordrem that aren’t connected to the dream, they do this for security reasons. Here are some possibilities

• Hunts work both ways. The Pale Tree would be able to implant suggestions in his creatures.
• He doesn’t want his creature to have the intelligence of Sylvari.
• He literally cannot connect a corrupted creature to the Dream. Only one Mordrem has ever accessed the dream. And we know for a fact the Pale Tree can portal people directly into the dream without connecting them to it. So we currently have no definitive proof Mordremoth has connected anything to the Dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Moreover you keep mentioning the Blue Orb analogy and evidence, please explain.

Both prevent corruption. Neither reverts corruption. A corrupted individual standing near the Blue Orb has no changes to it – a corrupted individual tied to the Dream has no changes to it.

The Blue Orb analogy is problematic enough.
What would happen if this “blue orb” was attached to the mouth of Zhaitan.
Oil doesn’t have to purify water to mess with fluid dynamics. And I don’t remember saying purifying. Just that a connection would be disadvantageous.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You are acting as if the Dream is a purifying force, like the spell the Forgotten used on Glint. This is not true. There would be no reason for Mordremoth to not connect his minions to the Dream if he could.

Daniel Handler.4816:

From my current perspective there are no Mordrem connected to the Dream. And only one has been guested in. Guesting is not the same type of connected given that she can send anyone in through portals. It is odd that there are not more Mordrem like the Sylvari.

Exactly my point.

Daniel Handler.4816:

YES that is what I have been trying to say that whole time.

If the Dream allows things to resist the influence of an ED. Why would Mordremoth connect his creatures to it.

The Dream allows non-corrupted things to resist.

That’s what you’re missing.

The Shadow of the Dragon still worked for Mordremoth, unabated, while it was in the Dream just as afterwards. The sole case of a Mordrem tied to the Dream.

I’m not missing that. I said, and you just agreed, the Shadow of the Dragon guested in.
If the PC of any race can be sent into the Dream by the Pale Tree, then Mordremoth can send creatures into the Dream without connecting them to the Dream.

Moreover the SotD was clearly disadvantaged anyway. It couldn’t make Mordrem it was forced to make Nightmare. And this might just be because of the tutorial but it was clearly weaker than its irl counterpart, something that doesn’t happen when the Pale Tree guests people into visions etc.

Edit: I mostly agree with this statement you previously made
“It would be closer to a server with sylvari being computers that download from the server when first turning on, but only upload to the server afterwards.”
Where I disagree is Hunts are clearly downloaded, and servers cannot prevent domain users from joining other servers if given direct access to their PC. It makes more sense for the Dream to be Internet given its scope and the soundless ability to lessen the connection (disable automatic updates) and the administrative firewall that blocks most of Mordremoth.

Regardless the main issue is that you claim its not a hive mind.

Well you are right, it’s not. It’s a group mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction)#List_of_non-hive_group_minds

A group mind that protects against hive minds.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rognik.2579:

Artificially fused dragon corrupted minions. I never said that the corruption couldn’t exist in one body, especially given the new destroyers, just that one template is not written onto another, at least not by the dragons.

Technically speaking the Elder Dragons corrupt “artificially” too. It’s not an innate thing but an active magical use. Whether it’s done by corrupting breath or done via a laser beam holding the same, unchanged, corrupting energies doesn’t matter much.

No, not technically. The corruption is coming from directly from the dragon, while the Inquest are taking various dragon minions and splicing them together. Think of it like the difference between catching a cold versus having the cold virus injected into you. The first is the way it normally goes, while the second had some other force tamper with the normal method.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We see multiple dragon corruptions inside multiple subjects both done by Inquest and done by Primordus. How does that not disprove “dragon minions cannot have multiple dragon energies in them”?

That isn’t, and I don’t think ever has been, the argument in this thread. I’m saying that once a being has been corrupted, a dragon cannot corrupt it again. All the death-touched and plant-touched destroyers? I’m saying they were only made recently.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If it were the remnants of a purification act, then Malyck (and his tree) would have the Dream too, while the White Stag and Mordremoth would not.

Why would they? Malyck and his tree didn’t get purified (that we know of). The White Stag didn’t need to be purified. Mordremoth can’t be purified. I see it as a subsection of Mordremoth’s mind bubble. All the higher-intelligent minions are connected to it, but the Dream cordons off the ones from the Pale Tree as opposed to all the other mordrem/sylvari out there.

As for the stag, I admit I got nothing. Either it is the thing that did the purifying, or is the physical anchor on this plain? Honestly, outside of Arthurian legend, I don’t understand the relevance and you’re the only one who ever seems to be bringing it up.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But the Wyld Hunts come from the Dream. That’s more than just “flipping the script” – and not all Wyld Hunts focus on the Elder Dragons. Some send folks on diplomatic missions, others to aid groups in need of it. The PC’s first Wyld Hunt is to find the White Stag, help Tiachern/Ysvelta, or battle the Green Huntsman. The Knight of Ember’s Dark Hunt is to find Malyck’s secret. These have nothing to do with the Elder Dragons.

And you’re wrong there. The PC’s Wyld Hunt is always to kill a Dragon. All those other things are steps along the way. When a sylvari spawns, they get visions of the future, but that’s different from the hunt.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And why would Mordremoth need Wyld Hunts/Dark Hunts to send minions that can feel his will and desire on missions?

What do you think a Wyld Hunt is?

@rognik some corrections

• we know malyck’s tree was purified because he is an uncorrupted sylvari. There is literally no other known method for uncorrupted sylvari to be produced.
• the dream can’t be part of Mordremoth’s mindscape, because he is said to have a connection to the Dream. Your cordoned off analogy makes as much sense as saying France has a connection to Paris, but not all natural citizens of Paris are citizens of France.
• the white stag is important because all Modrem are created from plants,.Even if the Dream was a part of his being turned on him the Stag should not be fleshy. Mordremoth ability to create hyper realistic clones came after Zhaitan’s death.
• Trahearne’s Hunt is to cleanse Orr, the PC’s is to kill Zhaitan. Neither perform the either.
• Google some of this stuff beforehand.

draxynnic.3719:

[snip] It stands to reason that Mordremoth could use this link to more easily influence sylvari minds than the minds of, say, humans.

You have good points that I missed in the back and forth.

I agree with all of your points. But just because they are unique to all Mordrem that doesn’t make them insignificant.

There are several flukes in this game.
Charr among cats.
Humans among primates (there are unintelligent gorilla)
Djinn among elementals.
Sylvari among Mordrem.

Why did he stop making them? Was death magic cloning so much more useful?

There should be more Sylvari that are purely his, there should be more minions connected to the Dream for the IQ boost. But there aren’t.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

What with ghost minions? ghost necromancers summon ghost minions?

Minions are made from three different methods

• summoning spirits (nightmare fiend)
• reanimating flesh (jagged horror)
• constructs (elementals)
  Necromancers can control them all.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The Blue Orb analogy is problematic enough.
What would happen if this “blue orb” was attached to the mouth of Zhaitan.
Oil doesn’t have to purify water to mess with fluid dynamics. And I don’t remember saying purifying. Just that a connection would be disadvantageous.

Nothing would happen, because it isn’t like mixing oil and water. The blue orb prevents corruption, but does nothing to purify corruption or cease the dragons’ consumpion of magic.

The only thing that may happen if the Mouth of Zhaitan carried around the Blue Orb would be that unless it had a way to counteract the anti-corruption measures, the Mouth of Zhaitan would find itself unable to corrupt things… but since its purpose was to eat magical artifacts and consume that magic, either it would just consume the Blue Orb’s magic or (should the orb be immune to consumption like the Forgotten artifacts) it would just carry it, not bother trying to corrupt things, and just eat other magical artifacts.

There is no problem in the analogy. Both prevent new corruption from occuring, but neither does anything to influence old corruption.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m not missing that. I said, and you just agreed, the Shadow of the Dragon guested in.
If the PC of any race can be sent into the Dream by the Pale Tree, then Mordremoth can send creatures into the Dream without connecting them to the Dream.

Moreover the SotD was clearly disadvantaged anyway. It couldn’t make Mordrem it was forced to make Nightmare. And this might just be because of the tutorial but it was clearly weaker than its irl counterpart, something that doesn’t happen when the Pale Tree guests people into visions etc.

It seems more that the Shadow of the Dragon was born in the Dream, since the Pale Tree states it came from there. So it wouldn’t be “guested in”.

And I definitely put blame on it being a tutorial boss – able to be beaten by doing nothing (literally) – than it being weaker in the Dream. After all, the tutorial bosses are all posed as troublesome for DE members to deal with; the Earth Elemental is said to have “nearly killed Logan Thackeray” and Duke Barradin the same, having wiped out the charr PC’s entire warband (nearly).

Plus, unlike in the Dream, the Shadow of the Dragon was backed by an army of mordrem both times it was fought in Season 2 (who were keeping everyone else mostly occupied).

But point being: if Mordremoth could attach the Dream to all of its minions, there is no reason for it not to. After all, it’s strongest minion came from the Dream.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Regardless the main issue is that you claim its not a hive mind.

Well you are right, it’s not. It’s a group mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction)#List_of_non-hive_group_minds

A group mind that protects against hive minds.

It’s not even that. Group minds allow active communication between those part of it. But there is no communication – no telepathy – in the Dream. It is a record of those attached to it, and those actually within it (and not just attached to it) can view this record.

But in addition to this, it is a metaphysical location. Which a group mind lacks.

Just because wikipedia lists sylvari and the Dream as a “non-hive group mind” doesn’t make it so.

Rognik.2579:

No, not technically. The corruption is coming from directly from the dragon, while the Inquest are taking various dragon minions and splicing them together. Think of it like the difference between catching a cold versus having the cold virus injected into you. The first is the way it normally goes, while the second had some other force tamper with the normal method.

You need to replay CoE story. They literally just took test subjects (both dragon minions and non) and shot them with a ray of corrupted energy.

There’s no “splicing them together”.

What they did would be no different than a dragon champion attempting to corrupt another Elder Dragon’s minion. Because it would just be hitting/saturating/whatever’ing them with corrupted energy.

To use your cold analogy: it would be like someone with a cold sneezing on you intentionally, versus someone sticking you in a room with that same cold virus being filtered into the air supply.

Like being bitten by a zombie, or the zombie virus being injected into you.

The method of transfer differs, but what’s given to you is the same, and the result is the same.

Rognik.2579:

That isn’t, and I don’t think ever has been, the argument in this thread. I’m saying that once a being has been corrupted, a dragon cannot corrupt it again. All the death-touched and plant-touched destroyers? I’m saying they were only made recently.

I’m not the one who wanted to “clarify” on the topic, y’know.

And here’s the problem with your claim: If that were true, then we’d see old destroyers mixed in with the new ones, since Primordus wouldn’t just destroy all of his older minions just because he can make new and improved ones. This would indicate that he altered all his pre-existing minions (at least those in the area) so that they all got a buff from his new magic.

Rognik.2579:

Why would they? Malyck and his tree didn’t get purified (that we know of). The White Stag didn’t need to be purified. Mordremoth can’t be purified. I see it as a subsection of Mordremoth’s mind bubble. All the higher-intelligent minions are connected to it, but the Dream cordons off the ones from the Pale Tree as opposed to all the other mordrem/sylvari out there.

As for the stag, I admit I got nothing. Either it is the thing that did the purifying, or is the physical anchor on this plain? Honestly, outside of Arthurian legend, I don’t understand the relevance and you’re the only one who ever seems to be bringing it up.

Malyck has to have been purified at some point otherwise he would have been “Hail Mordremoth!” the entire time.

Very, very, VERY few dragon minions are capable of such disguise for an extended period of time. Even among mordrem and Mordrem Guard, they do not think long term subterfuge.

You’re right that the White Stag needn’t be purified, or that Mordremoth cannot be, but you miss the point of listing them entirely:

If the Dream was a remnant of a purification, why would those that were never purified be directly tied (as strongly as the Pale Tree is) to that remnant?

And you’re wrong: none of the higher intelligent mordrem are connected to the Dream. We see one – and only one – mordrem tied to the Dream in any way, shape, or form. The Shadow of the Dragon. The Vinewrath, Faolain, three commanders, octovine – none of them show ties to the Dream.

As to why I keep bringing up the White Stag: because it’s a part of lore, and it’s a major dent in the hypothesis that the Dream is the Mordremoth/mordrem hivemind (even moreso than sylvari outright stating it isn’t a hive mind or telepathy).

Rognik.2579:

And you’re wrong there. The PC’s Wyld Hunt is always to kill a Dragon. All those other things are steps along the way. When a sylvari spawns, they get visions of the future, but that’s different from the hunt.

Funny how you focus on one thing and not the whole. Whether or not I’m wrong about the first bio option being a unique Wyld Hunt (I am fairly sure I’m not), there are all the other sylvari who have Wyld Hunts not related to dragons at all.

Also, it’s outright stated that very few sylvari get a Wyld Hunt when born. And that the vision is the Wyld Hunt. There’s only two things seen in the Dream: memories, and Wyld Hunt visions.

Rognik.2579:

What do you think a Wyld Hunt is?

A singular mission sent by the Dream or Nightmare to do a certain thing via unclear visions which can be ignored.

As opposed to a shared consciousness and will that is very clear, cannot be ignored, and drives the subject’s entire being to fulfill every part of that will as possible

They’re similar on the surface (“orders” from another being), but fairly different at specifics. Like getting a text versus getting an email.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Minions are made from three different methods

• summoning spirits (nightmare fiend)
• reanimating flesh (jagged horror)
• constructs (elementals)
  Necromancers can control them all.

Just going to say… there isn’t a single necromancer that has elementals as minions. There is the theory on Isgarren’s elementals, but that’s just a theory.

Closest you’d get is the Shiro’ken, which are souls bound into constructs of bone and metal, but they’re not controlled by a necromancer.

@konig we know dragons corrupt using unique dragon energy. To stop corruption you have to stop energy either from binding or from flowing.

Regardless do you believe Mordremoth can attach minions to the Dream?

If so why is the SotD the only one we see?
If not why can’t he?

Necromancers most definitely can have elemental minions.
Palawa Joko has undead elementals. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carven_Effigy
And the Djinn powered Iron Forgeman are bound by necromancers
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rage_Binder

Also active communication is not a required part of the definition for group mind. Only that the consciousness came from a single entity. And Modremoth’s mind is a hive mind and a metaphysical location, so I don’t see your point.

However I have edited the OP so to take out the contentious aspect of #2. Do you have any opinion on mysticism becoming public once atheist guardians became a thing. And do you agree the soul is made of dust?

That’s a valid observation, although I will note that outside of game mechanics we don’t know what the Carven Effigies actually are. They’re clearly not natural elementals, and seem to be essentially constructs. They could be powered by bound elementals, though.

It’s worth noting that some prerelease information on golems indicates that most golems are powered by nonsapient elemental spirits, with the Inquest and other unsavoury groups being willing to use sapient spirits (including humanoids) for golems. That seems to be an element that hasn’t been translated into the game, though, apart from one event in Mt Maelstrom where an Inquest agent is trying to collect sylvari to make sylvari-infused golems – what we see of golems ingame seems more like magic-powered robots than golems powered by elemental spirits. Still, if we do consider this to still be accurate, then if we combine it with other considerations (Oola’s connecting of necromancy and golemancy, and the original Iron Forgeman) does suggest that necromancers can control elemental spirits as long as they are bound into a construct.

We haven’t, however, seen any evidence that they can control elementals in their ‘natural’ state. They can – probably – bind elemental spirits into constructs, which is probably a similar magic to that used to create sapient undead (contrast the Awakened to necrominions) or Shiro’ken. But we don’t see much evidence that they can control elementals without infusing them into something. (With the exception, again, of whatever Isgarren is up to. However, soul transfer seems to be a magic that isn’t necessarily limited to necromancers, so Isgarren might not be a necromancer – and, in fact, most likely isn’t.)

draxynnic.3719:

That’s a valid observation, although I will note that outside of game mechanics we don’t know what the Carven Effigies actually are. They’re clearly not natural elementals, and seem to be essentially constructs. They could be powered by bound elementals, though.

It’s worth noting that some prerelease information on golems indicates that most golems are powered by nonsapient elemental spirits, with the Inquest and other unsavoury groups being willing to use sapient spirits (including humanoids) for golems. That seems to be an element that hasn’t been translated into the game, though, apart from one event in Mt Maelstrom where an Inquest agent is trying to collect sylvari to make sylvari-infused golems – what we see of golems ingame seems more like magic-powered robots than golems powered by elemental spirits. Still, if we do consider this to still be accurate, then if we combine it with other considerations (Oola’s connecting of necromancy and golemancy, and the original Iron Forgeman) does suggest that necromancers can control elemental spirits as long as they are bound into a construct.

We haven’t, however, seen any evidence that they can control elementals in their ‘natural’ state. They can – probably – bind elemental spirits into constructs, which is probably a similar magic to that used to create sapient undead (contrast the Awakened to necrominions) or Shiro’ken. But we don’t see much evidence that they can control elementals without infusing them into something. (With the exception, again, of whatever Isgarren is up to. However, soul transfer seems to be a magic that isn’t necessarily limited to necromancers, so Isgarren might not be a necromancer – and, in fact, most likely isn’t.)

I completely agree. And I see where my language was confusing. I’ll clarify. Minion shifted definition from gw1 to gw2 to include all undead servants. I applied the term to gw1 creatures that would be classed as minions in gw2. And flesh back then meant different things (essentially it had a corpse that could be reanimated).

So I classified necro minions into summoned spirits, reanimations of organic tissue, and constructs (like Carven Entity), and said that Necromancer’s can control all three types. Which is clearly true: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Undead
Although can =/= will. And examining all AI elementals can be constructs or animations.

• summons (spirits)
• animations (elementals, fleshy undead, most likely illusions)
• constructs (gyros, turrets, golems)
• allies (pets, fellow thieves)

I’d be wary about using such broad categories.

In GW1, I’d be inclined to divide the various means by which someone can use magic to bind or create an ally into the following categories:

Corporeal undead: This includes GW1 minions, and most undead. Pretty much every time we see ‘permanent’ corporeal undead under the control of a powerful entity that powerful entity is a necromancer (Khilbron, Joko), so it’s probably fair to say that this branch is bound to necromancy.

Incorporeal undead: This includes ritualist spirits and various other wraiths and spirits. These ones, in Guild Wars 1, aren’t so closely bound to necromancers – when it does happen, it’s possibly a special case (Khilbron can summon wraiths, but that might be through the Scepter of Orr, and he clearly has skills beyond typical necromancy at the time. It’s noteworthy that Joko’s army does not include incorporeal undead with the exception of Sahlajar – who might be a special case.

Constructs where a spirit is bound into the construct: There are some situations where this is known to be the case (Juggernauts, Shiro’ken, the first Iron Forgeman if you regard the Flame Djinn as spirits) and some situations where it’s speculated but not clear (Jade Armour/Bows/Cloaks, for instance). Apart from the Shiro’ken, the examples we know for sure fit into this category seem to be associated with necromancers. Shiro’s Envoy powers are weird enough that it’s hard to categorise them.

Constructs where the animating force is unknown. These include golems, Enchanted, Jade, Carven Effigies, and so on. Constructs in this category tend to either have unknown sources, or can vary in source. For instance, there’s a quest where you extort a Stone Summit elementalist into giving you the Heart of Ice, used for making ice golems. Oola’s approach to golemancy fairly clearly involves necromancy, but we also see that elementalists are in demand, and we don’t know Zinn’s profession. Regarding the Carven Effigies, it’s worth noting that Joko may not have been directly responsible for their creation: he had a wide range of both living and undead servants, it’s entirely possible that he had someone else make the Effigies.

Bound elementals: The Princes of Vabbi are able to bind djinn to defend key locations. What form of magic is used for this is not elaborated on (particularly since we don’t know Prince Mehtu’s profession).

Now, in GW2, we get a bunch of other “summons” available: engineer turrets and gyros, mesmer illusions, guardian spirit weapons. Necromancers have clearly picked up the ability to control incorporeal undead (Shadow Fiends) – however, they might not have exclusive access, as guardians use ritualist magic (confirmed in Sea of Sorrows) and “spirit weapons” may thus be spirits bound into weapon form. Elementalists can now conjure elementals directly: although whether they’re summoning them from elsewhere, or creating new elementals on the spot, is unclear.

Engineer stuff I’m inclined to put into a new category, being technological constructs (robots). Mesmer illusions I’d classify as ‘projections’ – the various holograms I’d classify in the same category as well. They don’t appear to have any programming of their own, but behave as directed by the mesmer or technomagical device that is projecting them. (Gameplay-wise, mesmer illusions are controlled by AI, but I’m pretty sure that in lore the mesmer has full control over them.)

In terms of magical constructs, we still see a variety of creators. Oola clearly sees necromancy as important for golems… but she’s a necromancer. Zojja, on the other hand, is an elementalist. Snaff is completely unknown – suspected to be mesmer due to the mental focus of his inventions, but that’s speculation. Taimi is also unknown, but if anything, she seems to be heading in an engineer direction.

So, necromancers can clearly build golems. So, however, can elementalists, and possibly other professions as well. It’s possible that there are actually different styles of golem, depending on what form of magic was used to animate them. Or it might be that golemancy is better considered a separate discipline entirely, which may be enhanced by the application of other forms of magic but is not actually needed. (It’s worth noting, too, that golems by their nature can be modular – a golem built by a necromancer could incorporate devices built be an elementalist or engineer, for instance.)

Either way, though, I’d be very wary of using the Carven Effigies as evidence that necromancers can control elementals in general. While their mechanical type is ‘elemental’, it’s worth remembering that they also count for construct and undead bounties, indicating that they’re certainly not normal elementals. Add that to the possibility that Joko didn’t create them himself but had a servant create them, and I consider it quite doubtful that we can extend the ability of necromancers to make constructs to saying that they can conjure or control elementals that remain in their natural state. That clearly seems to be an ability that fits into the school of elementalism, not necromancy.