Guild Wars 2

The 6 Human Gods guided the first humans to Tyria.

The human are not part of the system, of The All. The saw the magic for the first time in Tyria.

They were not gods when they entered Tyria. They were kings, that traveled for The Mist with their people. Maybe their world was in fire, or they were running of someone.
Then, they arrived Tyria.

The kings were seeing as heroes, powerfull beings. At that point, they started to absorbed magic.

The kings became gods, the 6 Human Gods.

What about their origins? And the myths? Well as every religion, they told fantastics stories about them.

Possible, but in my opinion, unlikely. Just freely traveling the Mists- let alone with an entire population at your heels- is the next best thing to unheard of even in modern day Tyria with all its magic. The odds of someone without even a scrap of magic managing it… well, it might not be impossible, but it’s the next best thing.

And then there’s the odd suggestions that the Six were somehow involved in the end of the last dragonrise, possibly long before they brought humans to Tyria. I agree that we don’t have the whole story right now, but I think the indications are that they’re more important than we (currently) think they are, not less.

they have magic before they interacted with human.

There are a few other flaws with this often-repeated theory:

First, despite modern sources calling them the ‘human gods’, humans weren’t their only followers – the Forgotten also served the Old Gods, and were present in the previous dragonrise, before the gods arrived in person.

Second, Abaddon had a predecessor, and given that (unlike Dhuum) there is no mention of Abaddon’s predecessor in Orr, it seems that Abaddon’s rise came before the gods arrived on Tyria. So there were certainly gods before their arrival on Tyria, although not necessarily the present generation.

Third, Dwayna is said to have been the first to arrive on Tyria, while Melandru is the oldest of the (current generation of) gods – a state of affairs that’s difficult to reconcile if their apotheosis only happened once they reached Tyria.

There may be others I don’t recall off the top of my head.

‘Course, these are all details that are obscure enough that I wouldn’t put it past the current writers to forget or retcon if they got some story into their heads for which these facts are… inconvenient… but the lore as we currently know it suggests the gods achieved their power before they arrived on Tyria.

(My general hypothesis is that the gods were the equivalent of the dragons from somewhere outside of Tyria – either in the Mists, or a different world (possibly the human homeworld).)

Dwayna at least was capable of interbreeding with humans; it’s canon now that Grenth is her son by the sculptor Malchor.

Kormir was human until she absorbed Abaddon’s power.

I would actually be quite tickled if it turned out that all the “human gods” were really just stupendously magically powerful humans.

Sister Saxifrage.7361:

Dwayna at least was capable of interbreeding with humans; it’s canon now that Grenth is her son by the sculptor Malchor.

Technically, Grenth’s father has never been named. He’s only been referred to as “a sculptor”. It does seem like all signs point to Malchor, though.

It took Lord Odran countless sacrifices to open a portal to the Mists that mortals can pass through. He is the singular being who had done such without some divine aid – be it in the form of a god, avatar, or a Spirit of the Wild.

Even ignoring the Orrian History Scrolls – the sole source of the gods’ state of being when entering Tyria – telling us that at least three of the pantheon we know were gods (Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru – Abaddon, while not explicitly said, is heavily implied to have been from The Mists as a god too from the Orrian History Scrolls), this still puts them far above what mere mortals can do.

Add on to the fact that the human homeworld is said to have been devoid of magic, this would make travel through the Mists impossible without the aid of some divine being. The Six Gods being gods at the time of arriving on the world already is not only supported by all lore we have, but is the Occam’s Razor answer to how they arrived on the world given all lore.

Most importantly, perhaps, is how all magic directly and many magic indirectly tied to the Six Gods have shown itselve impervious to dragon consumption and corruption. Most notably:

• Forgotten magic
• Divine Fire
• Foefire magic
• Balthazar himself

And yes, Balthazar as a fallen god has shown, through his off-screen actions, to be impervious to dragon consumption. As he had spent time creating barriers in a mass of destroyers and in front of Primordus itself before turning on Taimi’s Machine. During this time of being in front of Primordus and his horde of destroyers which we know consume magic too the Pact Commander was going all across Draconis Mons searching for M.O.X., the elder druids, and destroying the first two barriers before Balthazar had activated the machine. Even if you argue that the third barrier wasn’t made until just before the second was destroyed, that is still time a weakened god had spent in front of an Elder Dragon before activating the machine. Enough time to be physically and metaphysically nomed on.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Sister Saxifrage.7361:

Dwayna at least was capable of interbreeding with humans; it’s canon now that Grenth is her son by the sculptor Malchor.

Technically, Grenth’s father has never been named. He’s only been referred to as “a sculptor”. It does seem like all signs point to Malchor, though.

It’s “a mortal sculptor”. Though “mortal” doesn’t necessarily equate “human”.

vier.1327

The 6 Human Gods guided the first humans to Tyria.
The human are not part of the system, of The All. The saw the magic for the first time in Tyria.
They were not gods when they entered Tyria. They were kings, that traveled for The Mist with their people. Maybe their world was in fire, or they were running of someone.
Then, they arrived Tyria.
The kings were seeing as heroes, powerfull beings. At that point, they started to absorbed magic.
The kings became gods, the 6 Human Gods.

What about their origins? And the myths? Well as every religion, they told fantastics stories about them.

Unfortunately for the players wanting to have true gods in GW2, your variant seems to be very close to what the writer(s) intended.

In my opinion, the writer(s) of the lore is/are heavily influenced by the Star Trek universe. We have insanely powerful beings there, some very close to what we can call Gods (see the Dowds, The Traveler, 0 (zero), Q) to name only a few. Even the Greek Gods are explained in the Star Trek. What are they: powerful beings, having a lot of knowledge, inter-dimensional (or trans-dimensional). Some can travel in time. What all the beings have in common: They are not able to Create. They are not the Creator(s). They live in an universe not created by them and, when talking with a civilization advanced enough to understand them, they admit they are no Gods. The lifespan of these beings is long enough to be considered immortals by the common livings. But they can be defeated (by opposing them a greater force or by tricks).

This is exactly the definition of the Tyrian gods: powerful (inter-dimensional) beings, having a lot of knowledge, having a long lifespan, but not the Creators of the World. They can be defeated (even by humans).

On the other hand, by the way the Tyrian human “gods” act, we can make an analogy with the Angels in the Christian mythology: The angels were created by the GOD as a bridge between HIM and the humans, they are watching the humans and were granted with great powers by the GOD (as the Tyrian “gods”). They can interbreed with the humans (as the Tyrian “gods”). They can become fallen angels (as the Tyrian “gods”) by doing wrong actions. They can be defeated and banished (as the Tyrian “gods”).

To answer the OP: With this mixture of Sci-Fi and false Christianity we cannot make an accurate prediction of the origins, myths or the future of these “gods”. The stories are more than fantastic, the stories are almost Sci-Fi (by introducing the “device” used by Kormir to defeat and absorb Abadon, by introducing the Omadd machine and possibly, in the future, by introducing more “magical” artifacts)

So, let’s wait to see what powerful beings will the lore team introduce. But, if the actual team is kept I’m sure we will not hear of any true God in the future story.

Buecause, IMHO, a human becoming a true god is truly impossible. This is my opinion and I don’t want to force it in any way to other persons. Based on this opinion I wrote what I wrote.

Maybe, the best thing the actual lore team can do for the story is to give us a clear definition of what they consider to be a God. In this way we can make more accurate predictions.

We actually don’t know that the gods are unable to create, just that they didn’t create Tyria.

Either way, it doesn’t matter what definition people in the real world might apply to the term ‘god’. What matters is what Tyrians call a god.

draxynnic.3719:

Either way, it doesn’t matter what definition people in the real world might apply to the term ‘god’. What matters is what Tyrians call a god.

When it comes to whether they count as gods in Tyria, but the main thrust of Cristalyan’s point here doesn’t seem to be that old tiresome argument over definitions. They’re expressing personal disappointment in the direction ANet has taken with the Six, and in that context, real-world analogues and perspectives do apply, in that they inform a player’s response to the story.

draxynnic.3719

Either way, it doesn’t matter what definition people in the real world might apply to the term ‘god’. What matters is what Tyrians call a god.

I think this aspect is important and matters. Don’t forget that the grawls (inhabitants of Tyria) worships all kind of “gods” : a rock (because is very hard and eternal – according to their understanding of the world), the sky (because is very large and covers the entire world. And even if you can see it you cannot touch it), an icebrood elemental (because his anger can bring dead to unbelievers) and so on.

The humans, having a little more understanding of the world considers the six to be gods. But the Charrs have no gods. And the Asura have the Eternal Alchemy replacing any kind of god.

We can say that we have a lot of different definition of the gods in Tyria. What is the true definition? This was the reason I considered that only a definition from the lore writer(s) can clarify this situation. Because the characters we have belongs to Tyria but also belongs to races having very different definitions for the gods. But still the world of Tyria is one and only one reality can be true.

draxynnic.3719

We actually don’t know that the gods are unable to create, just that they didn’t create Tyria.

Well, the Creation is (in my opinion) the detail who can make a difference between true Gods and false gods.

I can see only two possible ways for the apparition of the World (both similar with the real scenarios for the apparition of the real Universe)

1. The Tyrian Universe started from nothing – something equivalent with the Big Bang theory. In this case the Gods are almost excluded – they are not needed for the existence of the Universe. In this case the six are not gods. They are old, powerful beings, with a lot of knowledge… etc. The level of development of the six can be reached by any other race if it has enough time. They can be challenged, defeated, replaced. The magic they used is in fact technology. In the moment the other races will understand the technology they will raise against the gods. And YES, in this universe, any human can became a god – if it has the technology and can use it.

2. The Tyrian Universe was created. The question is WHO created the Universe if not the six? And if the six are not the Creator(s), are they truly gods? In this case it seems the six have the role of the Angels, babysitting the young Tyrian civilizations and preparing them for the revelation of the existence of the true God(s).

So, the Creation is the crucial detail helping us to understand the role of the six.

As a note – this is the first game I played where the origin of the world is unknown and this is a vital information for understanding our place in the world.

To me, a pantheistic god certainly does not have to be involved in creation. I consider a ‘god’, in a pantheistic setting, as a being who embodies some concept or aspect of the world, and who genuinely has a degree of influence over that concept or aspect.

For instance, Aphrodites in Greek myth is the goddess of love, and she was believed to have the power to make people fall in love. She certainly wasn’t around for the creation, but was nevertheless a god in the religion she was part of.

This definition, incidentally, would include the animal spirits and Elder Dragons as well as the Six. It would not include a simple rock, however impressive, since the rock has no sentience or agency. If a mountain was the body of an elemental spirit which had the power and agency to allow people it favoured to pass while creating potentially deadly incidents for those it didn’t favour, however, that could be considered to be the god of the mountain – a relatively weak and small god, as gods go, but a god nonetheless.

Regarding the Six specifically – I think there is more to being one of them then simply being powerful. Every rise of a god that we know of has required the supplanting of an existing god, making godhood a mantle that is passed from one to another (or, more accurately, taken by force in every instance we know about). Furthermore, on supplanting a god, the new god must embody the same broad concept as the one they replaced – they can emphasise different parts, but the broad concept must be the same.

This suggests that the status of the beings that the civilised races of Tyria call ‘gods’ is not something that can be achieved simply by becoming powerful enough. There is something else, that can only be claimed from an existing god. What this divine mantle actually is and where it comes from is unclear, but it’s not something you can achieve simply by absorbing a large amount of magic.

When we come to what Tyrians call gods… we’re discussing the prototype. Tyrians use the term ‘god’ to be one of the Six or a being with similar characteristics. Even a grawl would probably claim that their rock actually has those characteristics. The grawl would be mistaken, for sure, but their belief that the rock truly does have that power is sincere.

On the origin – I think Tyria and other worlds were spontaneously created through the mindless creative energy of the Mists. Upon Tyria, six ‘domains’ were formed and, at some point in Tyria’s history, each was claimed by a dragon, creating the Elder Dragons. Somewhere else – perhaps on the human homeworld, perhaps on some other world, perhaps in the Mists themselves – another six such domains formed. Either these domains were claimed by the beings that would be the ultimate predecessors of the Six Gods, or they formed with their own sapience and form and did not need to be claimed to be the first gods, but these are the domains that have been passed down* to the Six Gods we speak of today.

*Or at least, some of them have been passed down. Dwayna, Melandru, and Lyssa have no known predecessors – they may well be the originals themselves.

draxynnic.3719

On the origin – I think Tyria and other worlds were spontaneously created through the mindless creative energy of the Mists. Upon Tyria, six ‘domains’ were formed and, at some point in Tyria’s history, each was claimed by a dragon, creating the Elder Dragons. Somewhere else – perhaps on the human homeworld, perhaps on some other world, perhaps in the Mists themselves – another six such domains formed. Either these domains were claimed by the beings that would be the ultimate predecessors of the Six Gods, or they formed with their own sapience and form and did not need to be claimed to be the first gods, but these are the domains that have been passed down* to the Six Gods we speak of today.

If your hypothesis is true (I mean if the lore writer(s) had this idea in mind when designing the story), that means the Dragons and The six are the same thing for their worlds: A regulating mechanism for the evolution cycle of their respective Universe. That explain why the Six are so careful to replace any fallen/ banished god with another entity – to keep the balance in their world. And why they are always six – no other domain is free.

This also means that the six are the gods of their worlds and the dragons are the gods of this world ?!?

In Tyria we killed two dragons. The world is unbalanced, so we must find a way to bring balance back in the world (I was close to write “in the Force” ).

From here, indeed we can imagine fantastic stories :-))

1. We can fight any of the Six and even we can kill it (It will be replaced by the remaining five) but a war against the God of War can be epic :-)
2. The dragons have no moral impediments when coming to do their job – to regulate the evolution cycle of the world – even if this means to destroy any civilization on Tyria. So, if we want to survive we should find a way to eliminate them and to find something to replace them – Aurene seems to be the best solution. Still, after becoming so powerful will Aurene still patiently accept her fate? Or, Aurene being the (potential) owner for so much magic will be not targeted by other powerful beings wanting the magic – see Balthazar? Are we strong enough to protect her?
3. If no Aurene, can we replace the dead dragons with other entities? The Pale Tree can be a good replacement for Mordy. For Primodius we can imagine another ritual for the dwarf race to absorb the entire Primodius domain. Talking about powerful beings, will Koda help us by absorbing the Jormag domain? Aurene can be still the replacement for Kralky (taking into account the relation K – Glint – Aurene). I cannot find any good replacement for Zhaitan – maybe some device designed by Asura and crafted by all the nations in the Tyria?

With good lore writers we can have a lot of expansions – each having more content than HoT.

That’s pretty much the size of it, if my hypothesis is correct – the Six are the equivalent of the dragons, but not from Tyria. The nature of the domains are different – those of the Six seem to be more about abstract ideas while those of the dragons are tied more to physical forces – but there are lots of potential explanations for why magic might collect into different domains in different places.

Currently, the domains of Death and Plants are ungoverned. Aurene absorbed part of the latter, but it doesn’t seem to be enough to make her the new Elder Dragon of Plants. We also know that she inherited an affinity for Kralkatorrik’s power – whether it’s actually possible for her to absorb enough of Mordremoth’s power to replace him, or whether it’s more like Primordus in that she’s picked up some plant energy to go with the crystal energy she already has, we don’t know.

So, moving onto your other speculations:

1. is indisputably true. One caveat is that the power of the gods, when released in an ungoverned state, seems to be even more destructive than the dragons. The end of Nightfall, for instance, implies that if someone didn’t claim Abaddon’s power, it would have exploded, taking out the PCs at the very least, likely the whole Realm of Torment, and maybe Tyria with it. So if we were to take out a god (again), we’d want to be pretty sure we had a replacement ready.

Note, though, that it’s questionable whether Balthazar is truly a god at present. His talk about having been diminished possibly means that he’s lost the mantle of War in some fashion that didn’t result in him being destroyed utterly. (We have precedent for that, in that Grenth replaced Dhuum but Dhuum wasn’t destroyed entirely… mind you, there is the argument to be made that Dhuum is still the god of Death, and Grenth has simply imprisoned him and is drawing enough of Dhuum’s power in order to fake it.)

2. This seems to be the entire purpose of Glint’s legacy – replace the Elder Dragons with her children who will care for the people of Tyria rather than casually destroying their civilisations on a regular basis, and ideally regulate magic into more of a ‘steady-state’ mode than the ‘boom-bust’ cycle that the Elder Dragons have imposed. It’s up to us to ensure that she matures into a dragon that isn’t going to go crazy with power like the Elder Dragons – and that she has the chance to grow.

(to be continued)

(continued from above)

3. That’s a good question. The ‘bloodstone madness’ concept, which the PC might well be at risk of developing according to some Current Events storylines, suggests that there is a limit to how much magic a human (or charr, sylvari, etc) can absorb safely without special preparation. The same might be true for the Pale Tree – she may not be capable of absorbing enough to become a replacement for Mordy (or any other dragon.

One thing to keep in mind with such discussions is that Glint has at least one other offspring – Gleam, whom we defend against destroyers in EotN (seems to be something about Glint’s offspring and being attacked by destroyers). What Gleam’s current status is is unknown, although it’s possible that Gleam was the mysterious voice who spoke to the Master of Peace when he retrieved Aurene’s egg.

Working through your other candidates:

a) I don’t imagine that there’s enough of the dwarven race left to absorb an Elder Dragon as the new Great Dwarf. We don’t know enough to rule it out, but the information we have suggests that surviving dwarfs are few and far between.

b) Koda is an interesting case, in that if Tyria does have a creator, Koda might well be the best candidate we currently know of. The kodan certainly have a belief that the beliefs of other races are essentially lies-to-children, steps on the road to enlightenment through a process of reincarnating your way up to the final stage (which, naturally, they believe to be themselves). Note that, even if this is true, there is no guarantee that humans and their gods fit into this system at all, as they’re not native to Tyria.

Koda’s current status is a bit of a mystery, however. Koda is attributed to having done great things in the past, but hasn’t been doing much lately. If the kodan origin story is correct, Koda does seem to have been around in a period where magic was wild, prior to the last awakening of the dragons – this means Koda predates the Six on Tyria. Koda’s lack of further interventions, however, suggests that either Koda no longer has much power to speak of, or prefers a hands-off approach. Certainly, the Voices appear to be communing with something in the Mists – but questions can be raised as to what. Is it the original Koda, or has something brought Koda down (possibly having his power taken by one of the dragons) and what is left in the Mists is an imposter or a mere remnant of what Koda once was? Is Koda what the kodan claim Koda to be, or is their belief that they are the pinnacle of enlightenment mere hubris, and Koda is merely another face of another being, possibly one we already know such as the spirit of Bear?

Regardless, one interesting aspect here is that presently, Koda is more associated with fire than ice, in the form of Koda’s Flame. The story we’re given is that this is because Koda tamed the spirit of fire, rather than the fire being something connected to Koda directly, but this could point to Koda being more suited as a replacement for Primordus than to Jormag. Conversely, the Great Dwarf in Guild Wars 1 was more associated with cold then fire – if the dwarfs are in a state to absorb more magic, they may be a better candidate to absorb that of Jormag.

c) There certainly is precedent for an artifact solution – that’s pretty much exactly what the bloodstones were, albeit on a smaller scale. The knowledge and magic to create the bloodstones appears to have been lost, but it’s possible that it could be redeveloped, and active management of the bloodstones could be used to keep magic in a steady state. One thing to note is that the Forgotten believe that the Seers used divine magic to create the Bloodstones, and furthermore, a form of divine magic that the Forgotten do not have access to. Given that the Forgotten are servants of the Six, and all indications we have are that the Six were not involved in creating the original bloodstone, this could indicate that the Seers had a different source of divine power that the Six did not provide. Finding out what (or who) that source was and gaining the use of that power could make for an interesting storyline.

Cristalyan.5728:

If your hypothesis is true (I mean if the lore writer(s) had this idea in mind when designing the story), that means the Dragons and The six are the same thing for their worlds: A regulating mechanism for the evolution cycle of their respective Universe.

Yes and no.

It does seem to be the direction Anet’s going, thus why there are so many similarities, but among the differences is the term “regulating”. The Six Gods do not seem to be doing any regulating. At least, not anymore.

And this ties into the fact that the Elder Dragons don’t need to regulate magic. Their greedy personas result in the need.

And this ties to your point 2:

Cristalyan.5728:

2. The dragons have no moral impediments when coming to do their job – to regulate the evolution cycle of the world – even if this means to destroy any civilization on Tyria.

The Elder Dragons do not have a “job” per se.

Every Elder Dragon, either directly (Mordremoth, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik), or via their minions and actions have shown to have each very different personalities and, more importantly, goals. Their goal is not “balance magic” or “reset civilizations”. If it were the former, there’d be no need to go all evil and assault civilizations; if it were the latter, there’d be no need to corrupt wildlife left and right (in fact, such would be an impediment to the goal since they’d want primitive and potential evolutionary races to survive).

I made a few posts a while back about these in full in studying these personalities and goals. The TL;DR is:

• Zhaitan’s minions preach about, effectively, an eternal undead kingdom ruled by Zhaitan without loss of loved ones or death.
• Jormag directly shows being after a world where survival of the fittest is rule, even if those fit are his enemies (for the most part, he’ll only corrupt willing converts, though the Sons of Svanir don’t follow this, and he’ll let potential enemies who have “proven themselves” go free).
• Kralkatorrik directly desiring to “have” or “become” all things – he’ll take (read: corrupt) all that he can, and destroy the rest.
• Mordremoth seems to want to replace the world – to become what sustains all life.
• Primordus has shown only one goal: to eradicate all life.
• Sadly, DSD is a mystery.

None of this is about “regulating magic” or “regulating evolution”.

The entire reason why the cycle exists, in the end, is the Elder Dragons’ greed of obtaining more magic. They keep eating magikittenil there is none left, but since they apparently need to eat magic to survive, they go into hibernation and wait for magic to regrow. Many minions speak as if the Elder Dragons are here to stay this time around, not that they’re here and will be gone in a few hundred/thousand years. Ultimately this means that if they can restrain their consumption rates, then they may be capable of remaining awake indefinitely.

And this seems to be what the Six Gods have managed – to find a way to remain awake indefinitely, thus no need of regulation.

Cristalyan.5728:

1. We can fight any of the Six and even we can kill it (It will be replaced by the remaining five) but a war against the God of War can be epic :-)

Not really. Nightfall showed with Abaddon that killing just one god would be potentially (and highly likely) to be highly cataclysmic. This is probably why they didn’t just kill Dhuum and Abaddon when they went evil, but waited for suitable replacements in the form of Grenth and Kormir.

Cristalyan.5728:

3. If no Aurene, can we replace the dead dragons with other entities? The Pale Tree can be a good replacement for Mordy.

We will undoubtably need more than just Aurene. The problem in the end is not the amount of magic, but rather connections to The All. And despite Primordus and Jormag eating the lion’s share of Mordremoth’s and Zhaitan’s magic, those two’s orbs were dormant during Taimi’s simulation with The All, indicating that Primordus, Jormag, and potentially Kralkatorrik and DSD never truly replaced the fallen Elder Dragons.

This may mean that “six” is mandatory for the world to survive long term.

In theory, any dragon minion, dragon, or magic-consuming creature can become a replacement. This means not just Pale Tree, but any sylvari as well, and even Kuunavang, chak or imps. But there is indication through this season that even for sylvari who should be capable of regulating magic that “too much magic” is dangerous for mental (and physical) stability.

draxynnic.3719:

Certainly, the Voices appear to be communing with something in the Mists – but questions can be raised as to what. Is it the original Koda, or has something brought Koda down (possibly having his power taken by one of the dragons) and what is left in the Mists is an imposter or a mere remnant of what Koda once was? Is Koda what the kodan claim Koda to be, or is their belief that they are the pinnacle of enlightenment mere hubris, and Koda is merely another face of another being, possibly one we already know such as the spirit of Bear?

Though it’s questionable how strongly it relates, there is the Spirit of Koda in the Edge of the Mists. Which is just a spectral bear, really.

Though the spirit of Bear the norn revere seems to be the bear spirit that first questions Koda and is elevated in the kodan folklore. Or so my interpretation has been.

draxynnic.3719:

One thing to note is that the Forgotten believe that the Seers used divine magic to create the Bloodstones, and furthermore, a form of divine magic that the Forgotten do not have access to. Given that the Forgotten are servants of the Six, and all indications we have are that the Six were not involved in creating the original bloodstone, this could indicate that the Seers had a different source of divine power that the Six did not provide. Finding out what (or who) that source was and gaining the use of that power could make for an interesting storyline.

Clearly the seers sacrificed Koda to create the Bloodstone. :P

(Yes, I kid – if a god was sacrificed, then I’d say the original Great Dwarf, who is hinted to have been his own person in the past, was the sacrifice.)

Despite being a pantheon of 6, there are a lot more gods

Balthazar, Balthazar’s Father, Balthazar’s Brother
Dwayna, Dwayna’s Son Grenth (fathered by a human)
Melandru
Dhuum
Abaddon’s Predecessor, Abaddon, Khormir (once human)
Lyssa

And propably a few more names that aren’t in the head-achy part.
More like a greek pantheon, the gods are just a dysfunctional family, of which 6 carry a crown of unlimited magic. Nothing divine or omniscient about them. In fact, some of the gods are easily cheated or frauded by mortal men.

The charr were right, let’s just ditch them and build a pantheon of our own, with Rambo

From what we know, there has only been six full gods at any one time:

• We don’t know Balthazar’s precise history before their arrival on Tyria, but Menzies has never been described as a god, so we have no reason to believe there have been two Gods of War simultaneously.

• Grenth was only a ‘demigod’ until he cast down Dhuum

• The whole thing with Abaddon, his predecessor, and successor shows a clear passing (or, rather, seizing) of the baton – there has never been two Gods of Knowledge simultaneously within the pantheon.

From what we know, there are only six full Gods in the pantheon at any one time – Life, Nature, War, Death, Knowledge, and whatever Lyssa stands for. Lyss and Ilya have possibly cheated the system somewhat in that they’re sharing the role, but they are referred to as the two who are one – for the purpose of divinity, there is one Lyssa, even if that one Lyssa seems to have two parts. How exactly this works, we don’t know…

…but I digress. The children of the gods seem to be only ‘demigods’ until they claim one of the six domains. Grenth was not a full god until he claimed the portfolio of Death from Dhuum. Menzies was never a full god – or, at least, was not until after Guild Wars 1. We have no reason to believe that Balthazar and his father were the God of War simultaneously – heck, for all we know, Balthazar’s father held a different domain (Abaddon’s predecessor, perhaps?) or wasn’t a god at all. (Note that I consider it most likely that the common parent of Balthazar and Menzies was the god of war… but that might not be the father. There have been female war gods in real-world mythology, after all…)

The Greek gods are probably a good analogy. They don’t have the bunch of omni-adjectives that monotheistic gods have. However, if you want to get into a fight with Poseidon, you’d better make sure your home isn’t on a fault line or within striking distance of a tsunami.

draxynnic.3719:

From what we know, there has only been six full gods at any one time:

• We don’t know Balthazar’s precise history before their arrival on Tyria, but Menzies has never been described as a god, so we have no reason to believe there have been two Gods of War simultaneously.

• Grenth was only a ‘demigod’ until he cast down Dhuum

• The whole thing with Abaddon, his predecessor, and successor shows a clear passing (or, rather, seizing) of the baton – there has never been two Gods of Knowledge simultaneously within the pantheon.

Yes, of course, we have a pantheon of 6 gods. However, where do you draw the line between gods and ‘gods’. because the point I was trying to raise is that while there is a pantheon of 6, there are more individuals of questionably equal or within-reach-of-power power that can be considered gods. Menzies wasn’t in the pantheon, and most likely he was weaker as he resorted to trickery and treason, (or he was just lazier), and then there’s the god Abaddon preceded, so if Abaddon took the baton forcefully, he needed to have at least an equal source of power OR a source of sufficient trickery.

My point being, there are 6 in the pantheon, but there are more indivuals able to compete with the gods, be they siblings or just kinsmen, and even mortal humans who can be elevated to a godlike level.

Well, in both of the cases of ascension we know the circumstances of, a party of eight was involved. Grenth had his seven supporters which became the Reapers, and Kormir… well. Let’s just say that it wasn’t through her magic or martial capability that Abaddon was brought down.

There are certainly ways and means for a being to have power levels that allow them to threaten one of the Six, but it does seem that there are only six domains among them. It may be possible for two entities to cooperate and thus ‘share’ a domain, as with Lyss and Ilya combining to form the goddess Lyssa, although that could just as easily be that Lyssa simply likes the symbolism of splitting herself in two. However, it doesn’t seem to be possible for one entity to hold two of the domains. There does seem to be something special about those domains that distinguishes those who hold one from simply being a powerful being.

Expanding on what drax said, ‘power level’ just doesn’t seem to be what defines a god. It’s not that they’re impossible to beat, it’s that they have control/influence/what-have-you over aspects of existence. Grenth divvying up souls between the afterlives, Dwayna granting prayers for healing, Abaddon rupturing reality through knowledge of his existence, and Balthazar lending out fire puppies doesn’t aid any of them in a face-to-face fight, but they do set those gods apart from the likes of Menzies, the Elder Dragons, and plucky bands of adventurers intent on deicide.

Amaimon.7823:

However, where do you draw the line between gods and ‘gods’. because the point I was trying to raise is that while there is a pantheon of 6, there are more individuals of questionably equal or within-reach-of-power power that can be considered gods.

I think the very clear line of procession and the related power that must be passed down for one (even a mortal) to become a god that exists within the Six Gods is a clear label of what separates other beings from the Six.

This isn’t to say there cannot be other gods, we have other faiths out there that label other beings as gods after all (Koda, Zintl, Amiyala, and possibly the Great Dwarf and Mellaggan all being candidate “non-Six Gods gods”), but that Menzies and the like are not of the same kind of god as the Six.

Furthermore, nothing ever claims Menzies or Balthazar’s father were gods. Just very powerful beings. And as shown by Abaddon’s death, the gods are more than just “very powerful beings”. Just as the Elder Dragons are more than “just very powerful dragons” because we know they’re tied to The All.

And it should be stressed that being a god does not make one invincible. There’s a very clear difference, even in real world pantheons. You’ll never find a polytheistic faith in which no god can ever be killed – most polytheistic faiths, in fact, are built upon the notion of a more modern and human-loving and human-like group of gods overthrowing less human-like god or group of gods (in many cases, these being related directly to the sky, like Uranus from greek mythology (or Caelus as the Romans called him).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/How-the-Humans-became-Gods/first#post649126

Similar topic from years ago

It is not similar Hunter.

In that topic, the OP talks about how the human take godhood from powerful deidities.

In this topic, i do not talk about real gods, or whatever.

Gods does not exist, just tales and a few human that absorbed a lot of magic.

Cristalyan.5728:

In my opinion, the writer(s) of the lore is/are heavily influenced by the Star Trek universe. We have insanely powerful beings there, some very close to what we can call Gods (see the Dowds, The Traveler, 0 (zero), Q) to name only a few. Even the Greek Gods are explained in the Star Trek. What are they: powerful beings, having a lot of knowledge, inter-dimensional (or trans-dimensional). Some can travel in time. What all the beings have in common: They are not able to Create. They are not the Creator(s). They live in an universe not created by them and, when talking with a civilization advanced enough to understand them, they admit they are no Gods. The lifespan of these beings is long enough to be considered immortals by the common livings. But they can be defeated (by opposing them a greater force or by tricks).

This is exactly the definition of the Tyrian gods: powerful (inter-dimensional) beings, having a lot of knowledge, having a long lifespan, but not the Creators of the World. They can be defeated (even by humans).

On the other hand, by the way the Tyrian human “gods” act, we can make an analogy with the Angels in the Christian mythology: The angels were created by the GOD as a bridge between HIM and the humans, they are watching the humans and were granted with great powers by the GOD (as the Tyrian “gods”). They can interbreed with the humans (as the Tyrian “gods”). They can become fallen angels (as the Tyrian “gods”) by doing wrong actions. They can be defeated and banished (as the Tyrian “gods”).

I’m pretty sure the Six are not derived from any combo of Christianity and Star Trek. The Six are derived from the Greek Pantheon. There are simply too many parallels. For example the destruction wrought when the Gods first gave magic to the humans parallels the Greek legend of Pandora almost perfectly. The interaction between the Six and the humans mirrors how the Greek gods behaved. Moreover the Six gods each having different domains mirrors how the pagan gods have different domains. Christianity has none of those properties.

Also PSA to the people in this thread. It’s “god” not “God” you only capitalize god if you are using god as the name. The only religions where you actually use “God” as a proper name are the three Abrahamic religions. A member of the Six is referred to as “a god.”

Crinn.7864

I’m pretty sure the Six are not derived from any combo of Christianity and Star Trek. The Six are derived from the Greek Pantheon. There are simply too many parallels. For example the destruction wrought when the Gods first gave magic to the humans parallels the Greek legend of Pandora almost perfectly. The interaction between the Six and the humans mirrors how the Greek gods behaved. Moreover the Six gods each having different domains mirrors how the pagan gods have different domains. Christianity has none of those properties.

Also PSA to the people in this thread. It’s “god” not “God” you only capitalize god if you are using god as the name. The only religions where you actually use “God” as a proper name are the three Abrahamic religions. A member of the Six is referred to as “a god.”

Well, " Pandora was created by Hephaestus and Athena, following the instructions of Zeus, who wanted to punish Prometheus for stealing the fire from the gods to give it to humans" (https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Mortals/Pandora/pandora.html) . She was created as a human woman. Your analogy with Pandora is not accurate, because you should find a reason why the Tyrian gods wanted to punish the livings.

About the way I use the words “god” and “God”:

In my opinion (and this is a personal opinion) a true God is an entity transcending anything a simply mortal can be or ever become. This entity needs no name, thus in this case the term “God” is its name. This entity is, no matter if the mortals acknowledge it as a God or not. He is not evil, nor good because his reasons are beyond the mortals understanding. And this kind of entities usually creates.
The true Gods cannot be classified in stronger / weaker Gods, because that means we can judge or comprehend them. This is impossible.
Again, this is my opinion.

In the Star Trek universe (and sadly, in the GW2 too), the gods are powerful beings, having a lot of knowledge, with a long lifespan etc. These beings can be defeated and humans can became as them too. These beings are considered gods by some of the Tyrian livings. For these beings a name is needed to identify them: We have the god Balthazar, goddess Dwayna etc. This is the reason I use the term “god” when speaking about The Six.

Funny, but the Mursaats acted as gods of humans for a while :-))

vier.1327:

It is not similar Hunter.

In that topic, the OP talks about how the human take godhood from powerful deidities.

In this topic, i do not talk about real gods, or whatever.

Gods does not exist, just tales and a few human that absorbed a lot of magic.

You don’t seem to be pay much if any attention to the responses to your OP, as has been stated almost ad nauseum the Six are more than just “humans with lots of magic”. At least until Anet decides to retcon everything they’ve written about the Six :\