Guild Wars 2

Hello!

I was wondering if anyone knew anything of the origins of these 2 professions or the lore surrounding them?

I studied the lore surrounding magic in general but I want detail explaining the lore specifically about these 2 professions .

Thanks~

I recall something about there being multiple schools of magic, such as ’’Destruction’’.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Professions-and-Schools-of-Magic
I found this after a quick google search, I guess this is also what you meant with having ‘’studied the lore surrounding magic in general’’ but for a direct answer about the origins of the mesmer or elementalist I’ll have to go dig in some old lore and hope to find it, I’ll most def. return with an answer! (unless of course some lore-expert comes and beats me hehe)

LOL awesome Nero! I appreciate it.
Iam really interested in knowing because, you don’t get a story or information surrounding your chosen profession when you play the game. And as a RPer I need to know lol

Well.. Isn’t it kinda all tied back to the bloodstones and the gift of magic from Abaddon and all that jazz? I would say that that’s the oversimplified version, however any further detail is speculation given we.. Well.. We don’t really have any.

For Mesmers, we know that Lyssa was the patron goddess of duality, illusions, riddles and deceptions of that manner. So I gather she would have been the first source of Mesmer magic on Tyria for humans.

For Elementalists, I think it would’ve basically worked starting with the fours schools of elemental magic in accordance to their patron gods and goddesses, with distribution of magical knowledge allowing mastery over multiple schools of magic leading to what we have today. The other option, would be Elementalists would’ve originally been more shamanic styled magicians, eventually evolving to the generic magi role they play today.

Like I said, almost everything I mentioned is speculation. You’re better off getting an answer from someone with a deeper understanding of the lore and what have you. If you’re lucky, you might get a wild red post.

The real question you should ask is how that profession came around in a race. I mean it seems to me that the 4 classes of magic which come from the 4 Bloodstones kind of dictate what you can do with magic. It is theorized that the mindset of the individual has an effect on the type of magic that they wield, but in general there is no origins given in the game except for humans for the most part. In the game there are scriptures of the gods that show how certain gods took on certain people as their students and taught them magic. Examples can be seen in these websites:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Grenth
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dwayna
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lyssa

Balthazar’s scripture is mostly about bringing courage to soldiers, and Melandru’s is about binding a savage band of humans to the land because of their mistreatment of it. This still leaves out the possible origins of Elementalism, as well as the origins of professions within near any other race. We see mesmers, monks, elementalists, and necromancers within the ranks of Charr from the very beginning, so how they learned these skills are beyond my current knowledge.

I do want to say that there is some mention of Elementalism being one of the earliest forms of magic used, aside from Ritualism which was used before magic was even released. I believe it was Thruln the Lost’s mention of primitive use of it, but I am not sure. Sorry I couldn’t be of much more help.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/21429-does-the-new-mesmer-fit-the-old-mesmer-lore/

So I found this thread in another forum discussing the Mesmer lore atleast and how it fits into GW itself. I have to pick and choose through each response but that’s ok.

I came across one post though:
“IF you have ever read gwen’s diary. you will see that the mesmer does not only affect the mind of the caster. She affects reality. She bends it to make it work for her and impale her enemies. She has always manipulated ether in different ways. The GW2 mesmer has learned to use it for some new tricks. But I’m sure some of the mind tricks are still there.”

I wonder who Gwen is.

Exact origins of professions other than Assassin, Ritualist, Guardian, and Dervish are left in the open air.

You pretty much have to look at the origin of magic – which seems to be getting majorly retcon based off of the interview with Angel McCoy. See this post and subsequent by Thalador for what I mean by the retconing.

The origin of magic is basically this:

The original origins is unknown; we know that it existed in the far distant past, and according to the questionable-source of Thruln the Lost, it was rampant and chaotic during the last Dragonrise. During said last Dragonrise, the Seers took all uncorrupted magic in the world and poured it into the original Bloodstone in order to starve the Elder Dragons. The races then went into hiding by Glint’s aid and the Elder Dragons went into hibernation via starvation.

Then come the Six Gods – while the Elder Dragons slept, they arrived to Tyria, using the natural magical power of The Artesian Waters as a guide, went about terraforming a bit, building Arah over the Artesian Waters (and by chance, Zhaitan too), and brought humanity to the world.

At this point, in an interview, we’re giving implications that the asura had access to magic, but it was limited. Similarly, according to An Empire Divided, Ritualists had access to a form of magic through use of spirits. According to Thruln the Lost, when humanity came to continental Tyria by ship in 205 BE they had access to “primitive magic” – magic of the elements (Elementalists).

On top of this, there seems to be a couple cases where the gods directly gifted magic to a single individual – Desmina, Jadoth, Doric, and Sara being possibles, and Balthazar’s said to have used magic on humans in war during 48 BE as well. We’re also told of a possibly-magical cataclysmic event in 105 BE.

Then comes 1 BE, Abaddon decides for unknown reasons that it’s a good idea to grant magic to everything and everyone with some amount of intelligence to them. He tampers with the Bloodstone, granting unique forms of magic to different groups, and says “all is good!” Then wars break out. Nation against nation, brother against brother, etc. etc. King Doric, human king of Orr, Ascalon, and perhaps more at the time, sought out audience with the gods. He pleaded for them to take away the gift of magic. The other five gods listened, Abaddon disagreed; the five gods sundered the bloodstone, empowered it with Zhaitan’s magic, and divided magic into four schools – Destruction (the magic of Elementalists; supposedly for modern rangers too), Denial (supposedly mesmers, assassins, and thieves), Aggression (supposedly necromancers), and Preservation (supposedly monk, paragon, ritualists, and guardian) – side note: magical school of Dervishes is hard to guess, but IMO most likely Destruction; the previous listings are “general believes of the wide lore populous.” Along with the creation of the four schools, magic in capabilities and strength got reduced overall.

Sources for above:

• History of Tyria – note: in-universe source; has proven to be wrong on a few things (only source in GW1 with fallacies thus far, except what’s shared between this and others)
• An Empire Divided
• Thruln the Lost – some things he mentions (god-human relationship in 205 BE being one) is known to be false
• Scriptures of Grenth, Scriptures of Dwayna, Scriptures of Lyssa, Scriptures of Balthazar, Scriptures of Abaddon
• Quiz Terminal and Orrian History Scrolls
• An interview with Ree (iirc) where she was asked if the other races know of the events of the Exodus; response was that the asura had magic in the past, and knew it grew and suddenly reduced for unknown reasons while they were still underground; not explicit statement but heavy implication that the asura had magic before the gift of magic.

-more in next post (kitten character limit)-

Continuing from previous post:

Given all this that has not yet been debunked or what did the debunking:

Magic existed before Abaddon’s gift, but very limitedly and primitively compared to now. Only known magical professions to have existed at the time would be Elementalists and Ritualists – though in places of heavy magic, such as Orr, more magic could have existed given how we’re told that Orrians were magically adept after the Exodus (moreso than other nations) and the asura had magic (it’s implied through the communing skill challenges that magic concentrates in three kinds of places: water and lava concentration; places of many deaths (which also weakens the boundaries between Tyria and the Mists); and deep underground places). If so, pure speculation here, how Orr treated magic may have been Abaddon’s reasoning for gifting magic to the whole world.

Edit:

I wonder who Gwen is.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

Perhaps the biggest NPC in GW1. Part of 2 campaigns, and the BMP.

Yes! thank you so much for all that information.

It seems that the lore surrounding the bloodstones and magic is the best it gets. Although I recall there were research journals written on how certain Mesmer spells were used to ward off a charr invasion. But I don’t remember where I read that at.

Perhaps the founding of Ebonhawk. They talk about them being seiged by charr and a mesmer illusion being used to save them.

Purecura.1795:

Yes! thank you so much for all that information.

It seems that the lore surrounding the bloodstones and magic is the best it gets. Although I recall there were research journals written on how certain Mesmer spells were used to ward off a charr invasion. But I don’t remember where I read that at.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal

A mesmer’s legacy who lived near the Gaban Estates. Discovered by Gwen during the Flight North.

Edus is talking about Koro Sagewind’s mass illusion of an Ascalonian army that she created by tapping her life force into the spell, effectively exhausting herself to death.

And ANet: Where is Koro’s, Rigo Bolan’s , and Lawrence Crafton’s grave in Ebonhawke!? It’s unfair Nola, Kieran, and Gwen got one, but the real heroes who saved the Ebon Vanguard and the civilians have nothing in-game – aside from the book.

Purecura.1795:

I wonder who Gwen is.

You don’t want to know. You don’t. Trust me, it’s a blissful life not knowing her.

@Thalador: Keiran didn’t get a grave.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Thalador: Keiran didn’t get a grave.

Are you sure? I could’ve sworn it was right next to Gwen’s.

Those are memorials. One is a general Ascalonians memorial, the other is to Langmar and Gwen. Why Gwen gets a grave and a memorial right next to her grave is beyond me though.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Those are memorials. One is a general Ascalonians memorial, the other is to Langmar and Gwen. Why Gwen gets a grave and a memorial right next to her grave is beyond me though.

Huh, so they are, and yeah that is kittening weird… Maybe Keiran died in battle and his body wasn’t able to be claimed? Only thing I could think of, why he wouldn’t have a memorial (as well as the rest of the Ebon falcons) is beyond me though.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

According to Thruln the Lost, when humanity came to continental Tyria by ship in 205 BE they had access to “primitive magic” – magic of the elements (Elementalists).

So does this mean Elementalist magic is weaker compared to Mesmer magic?

Elementalist magic, akittens roots, isn’t as complicated as a mesmer’s- it’s obviously simpler to toss a fireball than to mess around in someone else’s head. Elemental magic also seems to be the natural, raw form, with elementals existing in areas of magical concentration rather than, say, random copies of people who have passed through. That doesn’t mean that today’s elementalist magic is primitive though. And no school of magic can really be said to be stronger or weaker than another- kind of an apples and oranges thing.

I’d say the primitive elemental magic used before the bloodstone was tapped into probably received a large boost afterwards. It would be similar to how Ritualistic magic never required bloodstone magic, but once it was released they used the magic to boost what they could do. As to Nola, she did some pretty intense necromancy during one of the books as well.

“Just as Koro foretold, the charr returned, furious at having been tricked into fighting an army that was never there. But the precious time she bought us had not been squandered. We stood ready for them. Unexpectedly, mad with grief, Nola raised an army of undead from beneath the earth, an army consisting of the town’s previous occupants. Her forces created a wall against which the rushing waves of charr broke. Ignoring Keiran’s order to fall back, she marched beyond our front lines. The lieutenant vaulted the barricade, attempting to reach her before the charr could. To everyone’s surprise, he hit her with his fist and knocked her out. Then, he picked her up and rushed her unconscious form back behind our defensive position.”

Sorry, always a fan of the necromancers…

Like Aaron, I wouldn’t say Elementalism is weaker than Mesmerism, but rather that it’s either easier to comprehend and master or that it’s simply a more basic use of magic (which would in many cases, make it easier to comprehend on a lower scale).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Like Aaron, I wouldn’t say Elementalism is weaker than Mesmerism, but rather that it’s either easier to comprehend and master or that it’s simply a more basic use of magic (which would in many cases, make it easier to comprehend on a lower scale).

So with that being said, if an Elementalist in present day GW2 would Vs. a Mesmer… whom do you think would win the battle? Would it be a draw? Or would you just agree to the fact that it lies within the magic user’s ability and skill?

Purecura.1795:

Or would you just agree to the fact that it lies within the magic user’s ability and skill?

Yes.

This ^

Apples and oranges as Aaron said. Mesmers don’t tend to use so much raw power like ele’s can so it would all depend on how they responded to each other.

Dustfinger.9510:

This ^

Apples and oranges as Aaron said. Mesmers don’t tend to use so much raw power like ele’s can so it would all depend on how they responded to each other.

I asked Map Chat earlier the same question and I got a few responses. Some were pure opinion, and others seemed to have some solid fact. Incorporating the lore from GW1 and GW2, most said mesmers would win since they have an ability to invade ones mind and manipulate their views of reality in an instant, they also can inflict pain on anyone casting an ability, they are magical duelist (idk if this holds any weight), and the other answer I got was that Mesmers are counter mages…

So if a skilled Mesmer would VS a skilled Elementalist, I feel as if it would trickle down to the individuals skill. Now in a general aspect, I feel more inclined to say the maybe a Mesmer would have an edge in combat. The reason would be due to the fact that Mesmers can manipulate time, space (portals/teleports), reality and illusions. Where an Elementalist just focuses on raw elemental magic damage (destruction magic). So essentially all a Mesmer would have to do is manipulate, confuse, and disorient the elementalist’s view of reality. With the variety of Mesmer spells, that bend reality to their will, the effects could be drastic in terms of combat. ( also note the Mesmer is a duelist, so wouldn’t it be safe to say the Mesmer has more health than a elementalist?)

But Id like to know from everyone else, what edge do you think an elementalist would have over the Mesmer, or vice versa?

Mesmers sound very impressive when we hear things like manipulation, portals, illusions, etc. But it is really only so very impressive if look at them from an aspect of “no limits”. But we know that they do have limits. e.g.: it’s harder to create an illusion in one mind than an illusion that everyone can see.

Now I also think that not all mesmers are created equal. For example, staff Mesmer may excel at portals, but won’t neccesarily have the same types of tricks that a sword and pistol wielder would. Duelist health is also more of a mechanic I think since peope are born big or small without reguard for what they will become. Now excersize may play a small role but one bullet kills big men as well as small. So going back to the wepaons wielded, mesmers who weild staves may not get as much excersizre as those who wield swords.

I think ypou covered the mesmers abilities pretty well ,so Ill list ele’s. Looking at ele advantages, it isn’t all destructive power. if they are tricked into hurting themselves, they can repair the damage with healing water power. if they are surrounded by clones, electricity works well in AoE to neutralize that strategy. Eles real strength lies in their options and adaptability. They can strengthen themselves with the power of earth, heal with water, quicken themselves with air and damage with fire.

The more fit ele’s may wield daggers since that weapon set seems to require a lot of activity. They can summon powerful elemantals to also create multiple avenues of attack that the Mesmer would need to keep track of. And they are much more durable than clones.

All in all, it really does depend on what style and types of spells each combatant leans towards and how they respond to each other. I’m not usually one to say “it depends” because I like to focus on tendancies, but in this case, I really do think so. there are just so many vaiables to take into account. And they both have so many counters to each others potential strategy.

Purecura.1795:

So does this mean Elementalist magic is weaker compared to Mesmer magic?

I can’t remember where I read/saw it; I’m pretty sure it was somewhere canon like the wiki or in-game – but it was suggested that “primitive magic” was more powerful.

My personal speculation around that whether “primitive magic” is more powerful or not is irrelevant as we are working with a modern version of said primitive magic. It’s like saying light sabers are inferior because they are essentially swords, or old English is inferior because new English is more succinct.

Dustfinger.9510:

Mesmers sound very impressive when we hear things like manipulation, portals, illusions, etc. But it is really only so very impressive if look at them from an aspect of “no limits”. But we know that they do have limits. e.g.: it’s harder to create an illusion in one mind than an illusion that everyone can see.

Now I also think that not all mesmers are created equal. For example, staff Mesmer may excel at portals, but won’t neccesarily have the same types of tricks that a sword and pistol wielder would. Duelist health is also more of a mechanic I think since peope are born big or small without reguard for what they will become. Now excersize may play a small role but one bullet kills big men as well as small. So going back to the wepaons wielded, mesmers who weild staves may not get as much excersizre as those who wield swords.

I think ypou covered the mesmers abilities pretty well ,so Ill list ele’s. Looking at ele advantages, it isn’t all destructive power. if they are tricked into hurting themselves, they can repair the damage with healing water power. if they are surrounded by clones, electricity works well in AoE to neutralize that strategy. Eles real strength lies in their options and adaptability. They can strengthen themselves with the power of earth, heal with water, quicken themselves with air and damage with fire.

The more fit ele’s may wield daggers since that weapon set seems to require a lot of activity. They can summon powerful elemantals to also create multiple avenues of attack that the Mesmer would need to keep track of. And they are much more durable than clones.

All in all, it really does depend on what style and types of spells each combatant leans towards and how they respond to each other. I’m not usually one to say “it depends” because I like to focus on tendancies, but in this case, I really do think so. there are just so many vaiables to take into account. And they both have so many counters to each others potential strategy.

This really opens up my mind more. Both professions have limits that take effect on the well being of the body. So I believe at the end of the day it is safe to say both professions are apple and oranges. I would really like to see a Mesmer fight a Elementalist though lol. And no not in PvP

Purecura.1795:

Dustfinger.9510:

Mesmers sound very impressive when we hear things like manipulation, portals, illusions, etc. But it is really only so very impressive if look at them from an aspect of “no limits”. But we know that they do have limits. e.g.: it’s harder to create an illusion in one mind than an illusion that everyone can see.

Now I also think that not all mesmers are created equal. For example, staff Mesmer may excel at portals, but won’t neccesarily have the same types of tricks that a sword and pistol wielder would. Duelist health is also more of a mechanic I think since peope are born big or small without reguard for what they will become. Now excersize may play a small role but one bullet kills big men as well as small. So going back to the wepaons wielded, mesmers who weild staves may not get as much excersizre as those who wield swords.

I think ypou covered the mesmers abilities pretty well ,so Ill list ele’s. Looking at ele advantages, it isn’t all destructive power. if they are tricked into hurting themselves, they can repair the damage with healing water power. if they are surrounded by clones, electricity works well in AoE to neutralize that strategy. Eles real strength lies in their options and adaptability. They can strengthen themselves with the power of earth, heal with water, quicken themselves with air and damage with fire.

The more fit ele’s may wield daggers since that weapon set seems to require a lot of activity. They can summon powerful elemantals to also create multiple avenues of attack that the Mesmer would need to keep track of. And they are much more durable than clones.

All in all, it really does depend on what style and types of spells each combatant leans towards and how they respond to each other. I’m not usually one to say “it depends” because I like to focus on tendancies, but in this case, I really do think so. there are just so many vaiables to take into account. And they both have so many counters to each others potential strategy.

This really opens up my mind more. Both professions have limits that take effect on the well being of the body. So I believe at the end of the day it is safe to say both professions are apple and oranges. I would really like to see a Mesmer fight a Elementalist though lol. And no not in PvP

OK I had to do it but this is a great video of 2 skilled players (Mesmer vs elementalist) and I thought it would be great to share.