Guild Wars 2

So while writing up a response to this thread I came to realize something that should have clicked immediately given my constant research into Mordremoth.

In the Thaumanova Reactor Fractal we get confirmation that the Inquest also researched dragon magic there, shortly before explosion.

Now, if one were to go to Metrica, you’d note something: the area can be divided into six ‘rooms’ – the center, the ice room, the plant room, the fire room, the water room, and finally a little niche with a Branded-looking crystal.

This follows five of the six Elder Dragons’ nature themes: fire (Primordus), water (DSD), ice (Jormag – even features an Icebrood), crystal (Kralkatorrik), and plant (Mordremoth).

Now, what’s interesting to note is the event in the plant room: Destroy the misplaced poison creature During which we have to kill a “Veteran Rotting Oakheart”

Could this Rotting Oakheart be a minion of Mordremoth, perhaps?

Now, as writing this my mind began deviating to a theory on the ley lines in relation to the dragon minions and the nature themes seen in Thaumanova, so I’ll try to avoid deviating further. ANYWAYS, time to go into a tangent about Mordremoth’s minion possibilities:

Said above Rotting Oakheart shares exact models and abilities with the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart of Queensdale. During said champion’s event you get this:

Tracker: “Melandru’s tears! Look at the size of that oakheart. We’re going to need a bigger bow!”
Hunter: “We’re weakening her. Keep at it, for the good of the forest.”
Tracker: “Push the attack. If she gets away, she’ll pass her corruption on to the rest of her kind.”
Hunter: “Let’s end this and put the poor creature out of her misery.”
Tracker: “A sad task, to be sure, but a vital one. Had we failed to cut her down, the corruption would have spread to the entire forest.”

Spread of corruption; same model, species, and abilities. If the Veteran Rotting Oakheart is a minion of Mordremoth, you can bet that the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart is too.

But there’s more: Destroy the converted nightmare mosshearts has mosshearts using this same model, and along with that there’s a shared environmental effect seen also with the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart.

And those Nightmare Mosshearts were twisted by the long-suspected influenced-by-Mordremoth group: the Nightmare Court.

It might sound stupid, but did anyone pay any attention to the combat log during the fights in TM to see if Mordremoth’s name was mentioned in there ?

Thanks for sharing, Konig. Personally, I’m not a fan of the “Sylvari are linked to Mordremoth” theories, but we will have to wait and see to learn the truth.

I have a question: If your theory is true, does it have any impact on the theory that Husks are used to power Chaos Reactors, like Thaumanova and the Infinity Coil?

Huh, I thought this was common knowl- well, theory by now. It’s plausible it was infused with Mordremoth’s draconic energy at some point, but what makes me wonder is how do they spread said corruption or how was it spread to them in the first place?

In Thaumanova could be because they experimented on it, or it could have been randonmly ported there. But how did the one at Queensdale get there? How did it get corrupted? What was its purpose?

Personally, I’m of the same mind as you in this, but it does bear mentioning that there are two other boss side-events in the reactor. While the icebrood Svanir is certainly a dragon minion, I doubt that the deep sea crab is. I’d stop a bit short of saying the oakheart’s appearance in the reactor is enough to claim the theory confirmed.

Eluveitie.1290:

Huh, I thought this was common knowl- well, theory by now. It’s plausible it was infused with Mordremoth’s draconic energy at some point, but what makes me wonder is how do they spread said corruption or how was it spread to them in the first place?

In Thaumanova could be because they experimented on it, or it could have been randonmly ported there. But how did the one at Queensdale get there? How did it get corrupted? What was its purpose?

Maybe Mordremoth use these http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tree_Parasite

Reminds me of goa´ulds from stargate.

Finnway.2183:

I have a question: If your theory is true, does it have any impact on the theory that Husks are used to power Chaos Reactors, like Thaumanova and the Infinity Coil?

Husks being used to power chaos reactors? This is news to me. Please explain.

Eluveitie.1290:

Huh, I thought this was common knowl- well, theory by now. It’s plausible it was infused with Mordremoth’s draconic energy at some point, but what makes me wonder is how do they spread said corruption or how was it spread to them in the first place?

In Thaumanova could be because they experimented on it, or it could have been randonmly ported there. But how did the one at Queensdale get there? How did it get corrupted? What was its purpose?

The rotting oakhearts being tied to Mordremoth was an uncommon theory – the NC being tied to the Mordremoth was common though (as a theory). Thaumanova researching dragon energy was also a semi-common theory.

What I’m pointing out here is that the last of those three theories is confirmed, thus leading strong credence (stronger than ever before) to the prior two; practically confirming them by extension.

As for its presence in Thaumanova – it was teleported there (hence “displaced”) but so was the icebrood, and it is a “poison creature” which matches the heavy poison of Zone Green. The questions on the Queensdale one are good questions, yet unanswerable.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Personally, I’m of the same mind as you in this, but it does bear mentioning that there are two other boss side-events in the reactor. While the icebrood Svanir is certainly a dragon minion, I doubt that the deep sea crab is. I’d stop a bit short of saying the oakheart’s appearance in the reactor is enough to claim the theory confirmed.

The crab’s presence is a strong break for it – hence why not “confirmed” but “confirmed?”

But the crab’s presence did lead me to an alternative line of thought: the ley lines seem to be pulling creatures of the elements, possibly of the areas around draconic corruption (the ice room teleports a lot of icebrood stuff, not just the icebrood boss, as well as creatures seen near the northern areas of the Shiverpeaks; the poison/plant room teleports creatures of the western Maguuma, which is near where Mordremoth is hinted to be; the aquatic room is bringing about deep sea creatures, from quaggans to deep sea crabs; etc.) this creates an interesting thought for the central room which summons steam creatures and other Lornar’s Pass creatures.

It could just be that the minions of the DSD are just too far removed from the reactor for them to be effected by the chaos magic of the reactor explosion. Because of this other aquatic creatures are ported in.

…….wow, how did I not put this together before?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

the ley lines seem to be pulling creatures of the elements, possibly of the areas around draconic corruption (the ice room teleports a lot of icebrood stuff, not just the icebrood boss, as well as creatures seen near the northern areas of the Shiverpeaks; the poison/plant room teleports creatures of the western Maguuma, which is near where Mordremoth is hinted to be; the aquatic room is bringing about deep sea creatures, from quaggans to deep sea crabs; etc.) this creates an interesting thought for the central room which summons steam creatures and other Lornar’s Pass creatures.

I disagree. Having just been through the reactor, I’d say as often as not the creatures in a given room don’t fit any theme, and I’ve seen quite a few that appear in multiple areas- fire imps and steam mechataurs, to name a couple. While it would be interesting if true, I just don’t buy it. Nor have I seen any other icebrood creatures anywhere in the reactor, unless you mean the turrets.

EDIT: Upon some personal research, I have concluded that there are two types of enemies in the reactor- those tied to certain points in certain rooms (breeze riders in the poison chambers, ice elementals in the ice chamber, arctic crabs in the water chamber, and of course the aforementioned veterans), and those that can pop in randomly in any chamber. Beyond those six examples, there is no correlation between chamber and creature type.

Regarding the original topic, though, Rooba describes the rotting oakheart as corrupted (a common term for dragon minions) and says that it resonates with the unstable magics, making the area even more volatile. As Scarlet implies that chaos energy is a form of dragon energy, I’d chalk that up as further proof of the Mordremoth’s minion theory.

This thread got me wondering: If Mordremoth is responsible for the Nightmare, what will happen once he is killed?
Will no new sylvari be affected? Or will the Nightmare Court make sure some still experience it? Will the absence of Mordremoth affect “normal” sylvari?

I am just excited about the idea of confronting new Dragons, since -in my opinion- Zhaitan was the most boring of the bunch, because the least directly related to one race.

Hmm… that’s a good question. My guess, personally, is that while the Nightmare itself is likely Mordremoth corruption, what exists in the Dream is not Nightmare but rather memories that leave saplings mentally vulnerable to Mordremoth, something akin to the way being seduced by promises of power leave one vulnerable to Jormag. So to answer your question, I believe that the Nightmare Court would keep going, and keep spreading the darker side of the Dream, but with the Nightmare itself gone they’d mellow out a little, especially as the old guard are replaced- a little less Sariel and a little more Gavin.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As Scarlet implies that chaos energy is a form of dragon energy, I’d chalk that up as further proof of the Mordremoth’s minion theory.

I’d say it’s the opposite: “pure” dragon energy is a form of chaos magic/energy. It all makes sense when it comes to draconic corruption (and I’m very proud to have been amongst the first to make the theory that ED are “sentient chaos magic taking on the shape of dragons”): we see how chaos magic screws with reality (rivers going upstream, physical “mutations” (growth, shrinking, etc.). If you add the dragon’s own essence to the mix, the “screwing with reality” turns into “specializing on and screwing with elements and different forms of life.”

If chaos magic is the subcategory of dragon energies, we have another brutal loreslaughter and retcon rampage on our hands… all thanks to that Ms Villain Sue and her writers.

Could there be some sort of a link between these Rotting Oakhearts, and Rotting Titans?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rotting_Titan

NinjaChris.9340:

This thread got me wondering: If Mordremoth is responsible for the Nightmare, what will happen once he is killed?
Will no new sylvari be affected? Or will the Nightmare Court make sure some still experience it? Will the absence of Mordremoth affect “normal” sylvari?

The NC would probably be as affected as the Risen were with Zhaitan’s death.

Though it hasn’t really been touched upon if Risen can still make more, since the only post-Zhaitan Risen activity is Arah explorable (which features corpses of Pact soldiers, but no turning) and Tequatl Rising (which doesn’t feature new corpses). The former points to “no more Risen being made” but a single point doesn’t say much.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Could there be some sort of a link between these Rotting Oakhearts, and Rotting Titans?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rotting_Titan

Titans in general were demons. Their bodies changed to fit the environment. They weren’t actually plants.

So no.

They’re as tied as saying the fire titans are tied to embers, or ice titans being tied to icebrood.

Rotting Oakhearts come from Jungle Wurms…….

This all implies that Jungle Wurms are Mordremoth’s minions taken advantage of by the Nightmare Court.

Nightmare Wolves judging from the Cubs are likely born as Nightmare Wolves and not as the Pale Tree’s Thorn Wolves.

I say the Nightmare Court took advantage of the Jungle Worms’ abilities and used Modremoth’s minions as a means to perpetuate the suffering needed to strengthen the Nightmare…..

If the NC are corrupted sylvari, why wouldn’t Malyck’s tree be corrupted also? He is not familiar with the NC.

I think you’re joking, but on the off chance that you are not… where do you get that rotting oakhearts come from jungle wurms? Neither of them appear in the vicinity of wurms.

Yes, the Nightmare Court uses wurms… just like they use hounds, husks, spiders, even jaguars.

There are NPCs in Caledon who say that thorn wolves do start as sylvan hounds, and the heart just north of Morgan’s Spiral shows the process, but what does any of that have to do with the wurms?

While there is certainly the possibility that wurms can be corrupted, I think it’s quite a leap to say that all jungle wurms are minions.

Thalador.4218:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As Scarlet implies that chaos energy is a form of dragon energy, I’d chalk that up as further proof of the Mordremoth’s minion theory.

I’d say it’s the opposite: “pure” dragon energy is a form of chaos magic/energy. It all makes sense when it comes to draconic corruption (and I’m very proud to have been amongst the first to make the theory that ED are “sentient chaos magic taking on the shape of dragons”): we see how chaos magic screws with reality (rivers going upstream, physical “mutations” (growth, shrinking, etc.). If you add the dragon’s own essence to the mix, the “screwing with reality” turns into “specializing on and screwing with elements and different forms of life.”

If chaos magic is the subcategory of dragon energies, we have another brutal loreslaughter and retcon rampage on our hands… all thanks to that Ms Villain Sue and her writers.

A Quote from “What Scarlet Saw”

“The deeper she delved into it, the more convinced she became that the pinnacle of asuran thought was not a metamagical engine or a transcendent equation, but a key that allowed one to access the basic fabric of reality itself.”

Could the eternal alchemy be related to chaos(dragon) magic?

I don’t think so. The Eternal Alchemy is just a belief that the whole of reality can be summed down to a series of scientific principles (or magiscientific, or however the asura explain it). It’s a concept, a philosophy, not a thing or an object or an energy. Scarlet has her take on it, but she’s not necessarily correct, sorta like how in our world there’s a variety of ways of conceiving of the Christian God and none of them can be said to be objectively correct.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Rotting Oakhearts come from Jungle Wurms…….

No they don’t?

Those are Summoned Husks.

The Rotting Oakhearts hold no ties to the Nightmare Court nor Great Jungle Wurm, and the Nightmare Mosshearts holds no ties to the Great Jungle Wurm.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Nightmare Wolves judging from the Cubs are likely born as Nightmare Wolves and not as the Pale Tree’s Thorn Wolves.

Nope! There is an NPC in Caledon Forest, near Town of Cathal Waypoint (forgot name), which states that they are sylvan hounds which are changed physically and mentally – and it is impossible to revert this change.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Husks being used to power chaos reactors? This is news to me. Please explain.

I don’t know the theory well myself, but others have speculated on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPfF1ezyvzo&feature=youtu.be&t Watch/listen from 6:00—8:15. Then skip to 8:40—10:32.

The other reason is the Clockwork Oakheart at the end of TA Aetherblade path (they think Scarlett sapped the Oakheart’s magic).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So while writing up a response to this thread I came to realize something that should have clicked immediately given my constant research into Mordremoth.

In the Thaumanova Reactor Fractal we get confirmation that the Inquest also researched dragon magic there, shortly before explosion.

Now, if one were to go to Metrica, you’d note something: the area can be divided into six ‘rooms’ – the center, the ice room, the plant room, the fire room, the water room, and finally a little niche with a Branded-looking crystal.

This follows five of the six Elder Dragons’ nature themes: fire (Primordus), water (DSD), ice (Jormag – even features an Icebrood), crystal (Kralkatorrik), and plant (Mordremoth).

Now, what’s interesting to note is the event in the plant room: Destroy the misplaced poison creature During which we have to kill a “Veteran Rotting Oakheart”

Could this Rotting Oakheart be a minion of Mordremoth, perhaps?

Now, as writing this my mind began deviating to a theory on the ley lines in relation to the dragon minions and the nature themes seen in Thaumanova, so I’ll try to avoid deviating further. ANYWAYS, time to go into a tangent about Mordremoth’s minion possibilities:

Said above Rotting Oakheart shares exact models and abilities with the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart of Queensdale. During said champion’s event you get this:

Tracker: “Melandru’s tears! Look at the size of that oakheart. We’re going to need a bigger bow!”
Hunter: “We’re weakening her. Keep at it, for the good of the forest.”
Tracker: “Push the attack. If she gets away, she’ll pass her corruption on to the rest of her kind.”
Hunter: “Let’s end this and put the poor creature out of her misery.”
Tracker: “A sad task, to be sure, but a vital one. Had we failed to cut her down, the corruption would have spread to the entire forest.”

Spread of corruption; same model, species, and abilities. If the Veteran Rotting Oakheart is a minion of Mordremoth, you can bet that the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart is too.

But there’s more: Destroy the converted nightmare mosshearts has mosshearts using this same model, and along with that there’s a shared environmental effect seen also with the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart.

And those Nightmare Mosshearts were twisted by the long-suspected influenced-by-Mordremoth group: the Nightmare Court.

This has possibilities. But, if Sylvari are immune to corruption, how can the nightmare court be associated with Mordremoth. Also, why wouldn’t Malyck’s tree be corrupted? As far as we know, Malyck’s tree has no equivalent of the NC. If the NC was caused by Mordremoth, it would seem reasonable that Malyck’s tree would have a similar issue.

Be clear, my only problem with this is the association of the NC. I think the corrupted oakhearts could very well be minions.

Why would Malyck’s tree be corrupted? It’d be like saying “the Iron Legion has members turned into Branded, so why doesn’t the Ash Legion?” Just being sylvari doesn’t mean being minions. Malyck’s tree holds no tie to the Dream of Dreams, as far as we know, and that’s how Mordremoth – if he is behind the Nightmare – is influencing the Nightmare Court.

Which in turn goes to your original question without a question mark: it isn’t actual corruption, not traditional means at least.

And backtracking a bit: All it means is that Malyck’s tree hasn’t been influenced by Mordremoth – it is not reasonable to believe that just because Mordremoth is behind the NC that Malyck’s tree would have their own NC. And on a side: who says Malyck’s tree doesn’t? We know nothing of them beyond Malyck himself.

You guys are looking at this wrong. You’re assuming that because the NC is evil that means Mord is behind it.

Remember that the Pale Tree is a freed champion. And there is a dragon right next to Asuran and Sylvari lands.

How could this not be a part of thedream, and yet Kralkatoric- a dragon on the other side of the known world, is part of the dream?

They don’t even know Mord’s name.

The Nightmare is just rebellion against order. The Dream itself is Mordremoth. It’s sending Slyvari to all corners of the earth. Got them to kill it’s closest rival for resources (Zhaitan) and is keeping them all away from the areas it’s building a powerbase.

The Pale Tree is using all it’s power to keep Mord’s existance out of the Dream, but Mord is also cooperating. If Mord really wanted to cause destruction and chaos all he’d need to do is announce himself. All of a sudden a plant race knows a dragon that specifically corrupts plants exists, they’d all be out for his blood- or they’d all be questioning the pristine morality of their race.

Instead the Slyvari are getting fetch quests in Ascalon and Orr. Mord can’t control anything, the Pale Tree is too freed for that. But the Dream is too fundamental to Slyvari for her to stop is completely.

Risingashes.8694:

You’re assuming that because the NC is evil that means Mord is behind it.

Hardly. I’m arguing that the NC may be tied to Mordremoth because of the influence they leave on the world and the Wychmire Swamp meta. They permanently physically and mentally alter plant creatures (treants, husks, hounds) and they themselves “cannot return from the Nightmare.” Falling to the Nightmare is a permanent act and there is no redemption from it. Just like dragon corruption (with the exception of very rare magical interferance).

Risingashes.8694:

Remember that the Pale Tree is a freed champion. And there is a dragon right next to Asuran and Sylvari lands.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING points to the Pale Tree being a champion. That is a PLAYER SPECULATION that has a huge amount of facts pointing against the theory than for it.

Risingashes.8694:

How could this not be a part of thedream, and yet Kralkatoric- a dragon on the other side of the known world, is part of the dream?

What the hell are you talking about Kralkatorrik being part of the Dream but Mordremoth not? The theory that the NC are influenced by Mordremoth requires the dream – you got it backwards, in which case why would Kralkatorrik not being part of the Dream hold any solid influence on the theory?

Risingashes.8694:

They don’t even know Mord’s name.

How can you know this? How do you know that they know they are being influenced (not corrupted as sylvari are immune to corruption)?

Risingashes.8694:

The Nightmare is just rebellion against order. The Dream itself is Mordremoth. It’s sending Slyvari to all corners of the earth. Got them to kill it’s closest rival for resources (Zhaitan) and is keeping them all away from the areas it’s building a powerbase.

Not only did you just contradict yourself here with your earlier statement of “Mordremoth is not part of the dream” but this is, once more, pure player speculation that has 0 evidence of support and a bunch of counter-points – such as sylvari immunity (note: dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption).

Please stop spouting factless, baseless, unfounded, and unsupported wild speculation as if it is fact.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not only did you just contradict yourself here with your earlier statement of “Mordremoth is not part of the dream”

Looks like you need to work on your logic diagrams.

A is B.

A is not part of B.

The rest of your post is just baseless claims, the very thing you claim my post is. You say Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, but cannot prove that. You say NC “cannot return from the Nightmare.” and present a random quote from a righteous-good NPC as proof positive of a fundemental law of the universe.

You say dragon corruption is irreversible and then contradict yourself in the next sentance.

A cannot B, except when C but ignore C because C doesn’t matter. Painful structure you have there.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING points to the Pale Tree being a champion.

There is a plant dragon next to where the seed was found. Dragon minions tend to wake up just prior to the dragon awakening. The areas where the jungle dragon would be were the ones originally planned for close to release but were delayed.

Nothing that proves it, if there was proof my post wouldn’t exist because discussing facts is a waste of everyone’s time.

But I’d love to hear all this evidence against it. Although I assume you’re just going to trot over a misunderstanding of Malick like people in the past have done, and apply more of your “A random NPC said it therefore it’s law” logic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What the hell are you talking about Kralkatorrik being part of the Dream but Mordremoth not?

Kral is in the dream. Slyvari are getting wyld hunts related to him. Mord: a dragon right next to the Slyvari homeland is absent. Fairly easy to understand.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How can you know this?

Because no NPC exists in game that says Mord’s name. As someone who takes NPC speech as law I’d assume this would be important to you.

Risingashes.8694:

Kral is in the dream. Slyvari are getting wyld hunts related to him. Mord: a dragon right next to the Slyvari homeland is absent. Fairly easy to understand.

I thought that the wyld hunt dreams were related to Zhaitan, or are they related to dragon hunting in general?

Risingashes.8694:

Looks like you need to work on your logic diagrams.

A is B.

A is not part of B.

Being all of something still contains being part of something. If it is all of something, it is still part of it – and then some.

Besides, we can outright state without a doubt that the Dream itself is not Mordremoth – or Mordremoth’s consciousness or whatever. The Dream of Dreams is a place – like the Mists in function and existence by all our knowledge. It may be metaphysical in nature, but it is still a location; not a hive mind like many misconceptions, not just some mental link, not just some storage of knowledge, and most certainly not a being. A location. So unless you’re going to argue that Mordremoth is capable of creating landscapes that mimic reality which beings of any race can enter (see: A Light in the Darkness), the Dream of Dreams is not Mordremoth – part of or full.

Risingashes.8694:

The rest of your post is just baseless claims, the very thing you claim my post is. You say Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, but cannot prove that. You say NC “cannot return from the Nightmare.” and present a random quote from a righteous-good NPC as proof positive of a fundemental law of the universe.

You say dragon corruption is irreversible and then contradict yourself in the next sentance.

Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption is the entire reason why the Pale Reavers were created. It was stated in an interview during ‘sylvari week’ prior to release that sylvari do not become corrupted by dragon energy – they simply die if put into a situation where other races would be corrupted, and do not rise again. This is why despite having Valiants fighting all Elder Dragons (though we see mainly fighting Risen outside of being part of the Orders) you never see a Risen/Icebrood/Branded sylvari but will see such of other races. You say I cannot prove it but it is a fact stated by the people who made the lore.

The notion that people cannot return from being influenced by the Nightmare is a heavy influence throughout multiple sylvari storylines near the beginning, as well as some dialogue throughout in regards to those tortured and changed by the Nightmare Court. Shield of the Moon storyline is all about this, and you even try to free someone (or rather, you can) but obviously fail.

I stated that dragon corruption is irreversible except for Forgotten magic – which is one of a kind and holds no known influence on the sylvari people or the Dream of Dreams – in the very same sentence. There was no contradiction as I made the exception to the rule pointblank outright. My point is: the Pale Tree has not been influenced by anything which would indicate the presence of the Forgotten’s magic, as it is the one and only prevention and reversal of dragon corruption known – and even then, known only at the end of the game’s initial plot.

Risingashes.8694:

A cannot B, except when C but ignore C because C doesn’t matter. Painful structure you have there.

That’s not what I said. I said – using your logical structures: “A cannot B except when C, but C is not present here therefore A cannot B.”

-kitten character limits-

Risingashes.8694:

There is a plant dragon next to where the seed was found. Dragon minions tend to wake up just prior to the dragon awakening. The areas where the jungle dragon would be were the ones originally planned for close to release but were delayed.

Nothing that proves it, if there was proof my post wouldn’t exist because discussing facts is a waste of everyone’s time.

But I’d love to hear all this evidence against it. Although I assume you’re just going to trot over a misunderstanding of Malick like people in the past have done, and apply more of your “A random NPC said it therefore it’s law” logic.

Firstly, though we have heavy indication of both Mordremoth and the cave of seeds being in the Maguuma Jungle, the Maguuma Jungle is a large place so nothing says the two were “next to” each other. Nor does proximity create relativity.

Nothing that proves it… but nothing that supports it either.

Malyck is but one piece, though important – and I don’t know what misconception you speak of, given his lack of being tied to the Dream of Dreams this kind of pointblankedly proves your specific theory false. Immunity another. The Nightmare a third. Dragonic corruption’s nature and reversal a fourth. And more smaller things I don’t feel like refreshing my mind about. Regardless of how small these individually are, they are still counter-arguments. What support does “Pale Tree/sylvari = dragon minions” hypothesis hold? NONE. I’m not saying proof, I’m saying support.

If you knew me or my arguements you very well would know I don’t just spout bullkitten arguments like “a random NPC said it therefore it’s law” – hell, I’ve argued extensively against Thruln the Lost being “correct newer source” from the people you’re now comparing me to! I hold to the stance of: "Developers and out-of-universe sources hold higher likelihood of accuracy; in-universe sources follow “newest is most likely except when constantly contradicted or second-hand source” (e.g., Thruln the Lost is the exception). Assume accurate only when no contradictions or implications otherwise (because what the hell is the point of discussions if we can pretend in our heads that anything can happen and any we’ve learned could be false?)."

Risingashes.8694:

Kral is in the dream. Slyvari are getting wyld hunts related to him. Mord: a dragon right next to the Slyvari homeland is absent. Fairly easy to understand.

That’s not really ‘in the Dream’. Kralkatorrik is no more in the dream than the quaggan or Ventari are. Memories and knowledge of Kralkatorrik is in the Dream of Dreams, not Kralkatorrik.

Mordremoth is completely unknown to all our knowledge at least until very recently. Why would the Dream of Dreams – what can effectively be called a location that holds the memories of sylvari (and other creatures like the White Stag which are connected to it) – hold memories of something that is unknown? It would be weirder if Mordremoth was in the Dream of Dreams than not!

And on a side: White Stag, another counter to your theorycrafting and the whole “Dream = Mordremoth” concept. The White Stag’s very much not a dragon minion either, and is independent of the sylvari but directly tied to the Dream of Dreams like the Pale Tree is.

Risingashes.8694:

Because no NPC exists in game that says Mord’s name. As someone who takes NPC speech as law I’d assume this would be important to you.

No one said that Grenth was Dwayna’s son until GW2. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t known.

Quaggan, largos, and krait don’t mention the DSD’s name. But we know for a fact that the Pact and the Order of Whispers know that either it or Mordremoth are out there but never really talk about it except two lines. This doesn’t mean they don’t know about the fifth ED until mention of it… just that they hadn’t seen the need to mention it.

It would be like saying I only know of what Allah means when I say aloud what Allah translates into.

sorry I didn’t read all of this so sorry if this was already covered or if its off base, but I thought minions of mordremoth were always parasites, that happen to need a planty host, tree parasites for oakhearts, (thought alpha essences were all parasites with the ability to combine into one form with mutated powers gained from inquest testing). it seems like everything we see as being possible minions of modremoth also have non corrupted forms and are “planty”, I suppose the same could be said for most other elder dragons though (both noncorrupted and corrupted examples exists of all their minions [besides destroyers])

We’ve never had any form of implication that Mordremoth’s minions were simply parasitic. Rather, implications led to “they’re plants… mainly.”

And there are non-corrupted versions of destroyers. They’re called piles of rocks. :P (yes, I’m just making a joke).

It’s threads like this that make me sad, cause it just shows how much people want more on the Elder Dragons, and we’re just not getting any, so we grasp for the littlest thing and try to make it into something bigger, like this theory.

Thing is, it’s a nice theory though, but how does it make any sense that Mordremoth, Elder Dragon, would just corrupt one single Oakheart? That just is not in line with how Elder Dragons seem to work when it comes to minions, they seem to create lots of minions at once.

Look at Primordus, first to awaken, he had armies of Destroyers. Then we have Jormag, lots of minions as well, then Zhaitan, lots of minions there as well and finally Kralkatorrik, corrupting many many people and turning them into his army of minions.

But Mordremoth here, yeah, he just makes one minion….. I find it very doubtful that it really is a minion of Mordremoth, just because the word “corruption” is used, does not automatically tie it to an Elder Dragon.

Not to mention, if the Oakheart really is the one and only minion of Mordremoth, you’re also making the huge assumption that Mordremoth has awakened, as it seems that dragon minions are only created AFTER an Elder Dragon has awakened. I mean, if they could create minions before they awakened then we would’ve been dealing with Destroyers a lot earlier than Eye of the North…. Just sayin. And it seems very doubtful that Mordremoth has awakened because when Elder Dragons awaken, you know it.

Lets see….

Primordus’ awakening: Leigons of Destroyers wreaking havoc amongst Tyria
Jormag’s awakening: Drove the Norn from their home in the Northern Shiverpeaks
Zhaitan’s awakening: Entire body of land risen from the ocean, resulting in a tidal wave destroying Lions Arch
Kralkatorrik’s awakening: The dragonbrand

So unless Mordremoth is the black sheep of the Elder Dragons, I really doubt that he’s awakened yet, which means he cannot create Dragon Minions.

Unless the minions are the Sylvaris?

DON’T HIT ME!

• runs to for the door ==>

Hey, your theory is as good as any others BeoErgon, unpopular as it may be it’s no better than any other, people are just grasping at anything at this point to try and tie it back to the Elder Dragons.

ANet should realize that people want more on the Elder Dragons, more lore specifically on their nature, origins, etc and start focusing on that. We don’t have to be fighting Elder Dragons to learn about them.

The Oakheart that you know of may be an advance scout. There may be an army of corrupted Oakhearts in the Maguma jungle that we simply don’t know about. I believe that bubbles is awake, but I haven’t encountered any of it’s minions either.

But if Bubbles is awake, we have at least seen big signs of his awakening too, for one, we have the Quaggan, they came to the surface BECAUSE of Bubbles, not because they wanted to. Oh, and the Krait too, they were driven from the deep sea.

So that there too just further proves my point, when a Dragon awakens, you notice it, there are world changing effects, not just one Oakheart.

I figure the Dragons sleep close to stronger sections of the Ley Lines, to absorb the magic from them while generating minions from nearby the area to search for other magic releasing objects. They have a stronger connection to various magics and thus place themselves near to a ley line that is also near to their area of “expertise”. Jormag where theres Ice to corrupt, Primordus deep underground where theres an abundance or Earth and Magma, Zhaitan where there was ALOT of death, Bubbles where there is alot of water, Mordremoth where there is forest, Kralkortorik where there is sand (I realise sand is a loose connection to Kralk).

The reactor is placed on an intersection of ley lines where alot of them meet and I think its simply tapping into the ley lines and randoming pulling through any beings from around the areas where the ley lines are being “weakened” by the Dragons heavily draining them. This is why we’re getting native wildlife as well as Dragon Minions.

webtoehobbit.4201:

Look at Primordus, first to awaken, he had armies of Destroyers. Then we have Jormag, lots of minions as well, then Zhaitan, lots of minions there as well and finally Kralkatorrik, corrupting many many people and turning them into his army of minions.

But Mordremoth here, yeah, he just makes one minion….. I find it very doubtful that it really is a minion of Mordremoth, just because the word “corruption” is used, does not automatically tie it to an Elder Dragon.

Not to mention, if the Oakheart really is the one and only minion of Mordremoth, you’re also making the huge assumption that Mordremoth has awakened, as it seems that dragon minions are only created AFTER an Elder Dragon has awakened. I mean, if they could create minions before they awakened then we would’ve been dealing with Destroyers a lot earlier than Eye of the North…. Just sayin. And it seems very doubtful that Mordremoth has awakened because when Elder Dragons awaken, you know it.

Lets see….

Primordus’ awakening: Leigons of Destroyers wreaking havoc amongst Tyria
Jormag’s awakening: Drove the Norn from their home in the Northern Shiverpeaks
Zhaitan’s awakening: Entire body of land risen from the ocean, resulting in a tidal wave destroying Lions Arch
Kralkatorrik’s awakening: The dragonbrand

Just one little sidenote: we HAD to deal with armies of Destroyers before Primordus’ awakening. That WAS the story of Eye of the North. Primordus was still asleep and only shown SLEEPING after we killed Great Destroyer, who was Primordus’ champion.

In GW:EN we only saw Primordus for maybe 10 seconds (longer if you had a good eye during the firght), sleeping above the arena where we fought Great Destroyer.

So, at the risk of redirecting the conversation here… did anyone else notice that the Great Jungle Wurm has changed colors?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

So, at the risk of redirecting the conversation here… did anyone else notice that the Great Jungle Wurm has changed colors?

Another aside- the spikes on that Worm are logically badly designed. They would stop the worm being able to dig! They should be facing downwards if any.

They are. I’m standing at the place where it comes out of the ground in that shot, not at the head.

Still, when they go back into the ground…

webtoehobbit.4201:

Thing is, it’s a nice theory though, but how does it make any sense that Mordremoth, Elder Dragon, would just corrupt one single Oakheart? That just is not in line with how Elder Dragons seem to work when it comes to minions, they seem to create lots of minions at once.

Whoever said it was a single oakheart? Clearly you didn’t read the full theory. The Champion Rotting Oakheart is a bit odd being not surrounded by any corruption, but the one at Thaumanova – the one we’re really looking at – was teleported from somewhere unknown. So in this unknown location, there could be more than one dragon minion.

And a counter to your argument: Svanir was a sole dragon minion corrupted alone in an area of population.

webtoehobbit.4201:

Not to mention, if the Oakheart really is the one and only minion of Mordremoth, you’re also making the huge assumption that Mordremoth has awakened, as it seems that dragon minions are only created AFTER an Elder Dragon has awakened. I mean, if they could create minions before they awakened then we would’ve been dealing with Destroyers a lot earlier than Eye of the North…. Just sayin.

Actually… The Great Destroyer, Glint, and Drakkar – at least – were all around during the previous Elder Dragon rise. They, except Glint, went into hibernation and awoke before their masters to help said masters arise.

Three of the six Elder Dragons had known harbingers, if you will, to bring forth their coming – a single dragon champion that awoke before they did. Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and the DSD may as well. The Elder Dragons will awaken eventually anyways, but these champions serve to hasten that effect.

So no, I am not assuming that Mordremoth is awake.

webtoehobbit.4201:

So unless Mordremoth is the black sheep of the Elder Dragons, I really doubt that he’s awakened yet, which means he cannot create Dragon Minions.

AHEM Eye of the North proves this wrong completely. Destroyers were being made by the Great Destroyer, and Svanir was turned into a dragon champion by Drakkar who was frozen in ice. Glint also made crystalline constructs in her lair (likely could be considered Branded in hindsight).

Elder Dragons are not the sole source of dragon minions. They’re just the top of the chain of command in their respective minion hierarchy. If Mordremoth has one champion who has awakened, which can go completely unnoticed, then Mordremoth could be building an army unknown to the races of Tyria.

And that Great Jungle Wurm and the “Blighted” creatures in Wychmire Swamp are said to be tied to a dark force…

Also, on a side: the DSD had no known effect when awakening. Aside from pushing races north. Mordremoth can simply be too far away to have felt his equivilant of Zhaitan rising Orr, Jormag shattering the Far Shiverpeaks, or Kralkatorrik creating the Dragonbrand.

BeoErgon.9107:

Unless the minions are the Sylvaris?

DON’T HIT ME!

• runs to for the door ==>

webtoehobbit.4201:

Hey, your theory is as good as any others BeoErgon, unpopular as it may be it’s no better than any other, people are just grasping at anything at this point to try and tie it back to the Elder Dragons.

ANet should realize that people want more on the Elder Dragons, more lore specifically on their nature, origins, etc and start focusing on that. We don’t have to be fighting Elder Dragons to learn about them.

Actually, it isn’t really that good as any other theory. There’s no support for the whole “sylvari = dragon minions” except misconceptions of the whole sylvari immunity situation. On the flip side, there’s a lot of (albeit small and not fully debunking) evidence to counter the theory – including the real situation with the sylvari immunity situation.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

So, at the risk of redirecting the conversation here… did anyone else notice that the Great Jungle Wurm has changed colors?

Good catch. Turned brown, oddly. Or it’s just your computer’s graphics. :P

And yeah, Cataclysm, the spikes are an odd design.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Actually, it isn’t really that good as any other theory. There’s no support for the whole “sylvari = dragon minions” except misconceptions of the whole sylvari immunity situation. On the flip side, there’s a lot of (albeit small and not fully debunking) evidence to counter the theory – including the real situation with the sylvari immunity situation.

Even if I am not as sure as you that Sylvaris can’t be dragon minions, what about this other theory:

If we agree with you that corrupted oaks are minions of Mordremoth and the Nightmare Court are corrupted Sylvaris, what if Sylvaris were meant to be corrupted in the first place?
As I said in the topic https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Sylvari-ultimate-fighting-race/first#post3303180, I feel that the Sylvaris are a great army and someone had a purpose for them (the seeds were kept secure in one cave guarded by plant monsters, implying someone having power over plants kept them there)

The other dragons have their own corrupting means. In Orr the deceased corpses were used, Primordius uses rocks, Svanir can corrupt humans and other sentient beings… Each dragon has its predilected targets.

What if Mordremoth had those seeds kept guarded, waiting for his awakening and ready to deliver for him a nice army of plant people that were ideal targets for his dragon corruption? Ronan just put a dent to his plans.
I mean, if Zaithan had not awakened in Orr he would have been short of corpses to create his army… or his army would have been really smaller. If Mordremoth corrupts plants, Sylvaris are ideal for him and a cave full of pale trees is a force to reckon.

I know is far fetched as a theory, but I can’t help to think Sylvaris and the dragon are related… Either they were meant to serve him or to fight him (in this case, Mordremoth could have been guarding the seeds in order to prevent others from using them against him, but why not destroy them? If he was not the one guarding them, who else has power over the plant monsters? The druids of Maguma maybe?)

Sylvaris (in general, not those of the pale tree) have a reason to exist, and I think the Pale tree is not aware because being raised apart and grown with love and care… Who guarded them and for what purpose?

Konig Des Todes.2086

Three of the six Elder Dragons had known harbingers, if you will, to bring forth their coming – a single dragon champion that awoke before they did. Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and the DSD may as well. The Elder Dragons will awaken eventually anyways, but these champions serve to hasten that effect.

So no, I am not assuming that Mordremoth is awake.

“Harbinger” is an interesting word choice. Malyck is known as the Harbinger to the NC.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A location. (see: A Light in the Darkness),

Justify this. Because in A Light in the Darkness we enter a vision facilitated by the Pale Tree. Why do you believe it’s a ‘location’?

I would say the Dream is the way Mord commands his minions, but because of the Pale Trees influence only the most non-harmful quests get through. This is why most of the tasks concern killing other dragons and travelling eastwards.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption is the entire reason why the Pale Reavers were created.

Yes but characters work on the same lore that we do. No one knows about Mord and therefore they don’t know of any dragon that could hypothetically corrupt them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

you never see a Risen/Icebrood/Branded sylvari but will see such of other races. You say I cannot prove it but it is a fact stated by the people who made the lore.

The other dragons corrupt flesh. Sylvari are plants, this makes a fair amount of sense. The creators, if they were specifically going for Mord as the second dragon, and wanted to create a complex storyline where the Pale Tree was not entirely what it seemed, would not spoil the reveal in a race’s week before the game even launched.

If my theory is true, how would you expect the developers to act? I would say exactly how they have, and as such using their comments against the theory seems to be missing the point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The notion that people cannot return from being influenced by the Nightmare is a heavy influence throughout multiple sylvari storylines

And how are we defining ‘influence by nightmare’?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gavin

Gavin is part of the nightmare court but acts like a fairly nice and honourable guy throughout his storyline.

Half the nightmare pod rescuee in TA story seem perfectly fine once released.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Heart_of_Nightmare

Is this really the exhaustive method of bringing someone out of Nightmare? Two lines of generic text? No potions, no 4 week detox, no long term mentor, or maybe spending more than 2 minutes doing anything?

Does this really satisfy you as proving that it’s impossible to bring someone back from Nightmare?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

except for Forgotten magic – which is one of a kind

Why do you believe this?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s not what I said. I said – using your logical structures: “A cannot B except when C, but C is not present here therefore A cannot B.”

What you said is “A cannot B except when C, and C is unique and I don’t need to say why C is unique, but C is not present here therefore A cannot B.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing that proves it… but nothing that supports it either.

They’re a plant race, who were found in the same zone as the plant dragon. That is what supports it. I cannot be proven because we haven’t been given any relative information.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Malyck is but one piece, though important – and I don’t know what misconception you speak of, given his lack of being tied to the Dream of Dreams this kind of pointblankedly proves your specific theory false.

Malyck has amnesia. That is the misconception. People say “Malyck doesn’t know of a dream therefore his tree doesn’t have a dream” but he has amnesia- Malyck not remembering something is less than useless as a form of evidence.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Immunity another.

Which hasn’t been confirmed as we’ve never encountered the Jungle Dragon, the only dragon that actually corrupts the material Sylvari are made out of. You know what else the other dragons never corrupt? Plants. Show me the Destroyer Oakheart or a Crystalized Oakheart and I’ll concede this point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Nightmare a third.

How does the Nightmare in any way hurt my theory?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dragonic corruption’s nature and reversal a fourth.

Seems like you’ve just mooshed together point 2 and 3.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What support does “Pale Tree/sylvari = dragon minions” hypothesis hold? NONE. I’m not saying proof, I’m saying support.

As I’ve already stated, and you’ve failed to address:

Mord’s absence from the dream despite being 1 zone over from the tree itself.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/

“Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”

Quite clearly talking about Mord, otherwise the line is just complete metaphysical nonesense.

The original map sent out to collectors edition people had 2 additional dungeons, both in the Maguuma region.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t just spout bullkitten arguments like “a random NPC said it therefore it’s law”

Well good. And your next post went deeper in to your reasoning. I addressed why the sources you quoted are likely unreliable or don’t really suggest the things you claim they suggest.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“Developers and out-of-universe sources hold higher likelihood of accuracy; in-universe sources follow “newest is most likely except when constantly contradicted or second-hand source”

Well this just doesn’t seem logical when examining a subject where the claim is that the developers are purposefully keeping information vague in order to protect a reveal.

I realize such a viewpoint is vulnerable to falling in to conspiracy theory, the CIA put microphones in my teeth, regions- but I don’t believe my theory falls anywhere close to that currently.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kralkatorrik is no more in the dream than the quaggan or Ventari are.

I agree. But all those things are in the dream, while Mord- a dragon that is wholly concerned with plants, that lives in the zone right next to the tree, is not.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Memories and knowledge of Kralkatorrik is in the Dream of Dreams, not Kralkatorrik.

Yes, obviously. When talking about being ‘in’ the dream I assumed you understood that this is what we were talking about. Things in the dream are representations, which is why it’s important that you understood that being ‘in’ the dream and ‘being’ the dream were two very different things.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why would the Dream of Dreams – what can effectively be called a location that holds the memories of sylvari (and other creatures like the White Stag which are connected to it) – hold memories of something that is unknown? It would be weirder if Mordremoth was in the Dream of Dreams than not!

If Mord isn’t known to anything then obviously it wouldn’t be part of the dream.

I’m saying it’s suspicious that Mord isn’t known. That all Sylvari are conveniently heading east, and that none have gone west. In to a jungle region. You’d think a proportion of a plant species would be interested in such a thing. But all the dream missions, grand and small, are being directed east.

Is this supposed to be simply a result of us playing a game made by developers, or is this a part of the story itself?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The White Stag’s very much not a dragon minion either, and is independent of the sylvari but directly tied to the Dream of Dreams like the Pale Tree is.

It’s tied to the Pale Tree’s version of the dream. She cannot control the dream completely but she certainly claims to be it’s steward.

And how does the White Stag not being a dragon minion in any way counter anything I’ve said? I never claimed all things related to the dream are dragon related, any more than all things in Orr being Zhaitan related.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No one said that Grenth was Dwayna’s son until GW2. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t known.

Quaggan, largos, and krait don’t mention the DSD’s name. But we know for a fact that the Pact and the Order of Whispers know that either it or Mordremoth are out there but never really talk about it except two lines. This doesn’t mean they don’t know about the fifth ED until mention of it… just that they hadn’t seen the need to mention it.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to claim here. NPCs mention that they know of the DSD. This means that people know about the DSD in game.

No one mentions Mord’s name in game and you’re trying to use the fact that people do mention the DSD as somehow supporting that just because people don’t mention something doesn’t mean it isn’t true?

Explain yourself. Because you appear to be using my argument: that absence of evidence doesn’t imply impossibility- something you’ve seemed to deny previously.

BeoErgon.9107:

If we agree with you that corrupted oaks are minions of Mordremoth and the Nightmare Court are corrupted Sylvaris, what if Sylvaris were meant to be corrupted in the first place?

That’s the same exact theory – sylvari as dragon minions = sylvari are corrupted.

Furthermore, I’m not saying that the NC are “corrupted sylvari” – I’m saying they’re influenced. Like how Jora was by Drakkar. She was no icebrood, she resisted the corruption but still suffered from it (couldn’t take on Bear Form; she was disconnected from the Spirits of the Wild). The Nightmare Court would be similar – they are not corrupted, by they’re influenced by Mordremoth via the Nightmare. A lot of the Nightmare Court differ in their personalities greatly, some not even liking the hostility that others give (Gavin, I think the name was, from White Stag storyline). This is different from all other dragon minions, and it’s unlikely that Mordremoth is the black sheep that lacks the immense fanaticism and hostility all dragon minions possess.

And your theory has a major flaw…

BeoErgon.9107:

Sylvaris (in general, not those of the pale tree) have a reason to exist, and I think the Pale tree is not aware because being raised apart and grown with love and care… Who guarded them and for what purpose?

Love and care does not prevent dragon corruption. The only thing known to do such is magic of the Forgotten. The Pale Tree would not be spared from being corrupted if it were a minion unless there was some contact with the Forgotten – but there’s no evidence nor implication of such occurring.

Furthermore, Malyck would also need to have been influenced by the Forgotten’s magic otherwise he would be more like the Nightmare Court or standard dragon minions.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig Des Todes.2086

Three of the six Elder Dragons had known harbingers, if you will, to bring forth their coming – a single dragon champion that awoke before they did. Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and the DSD may as well. The Elder Dragons will awaken eventually anyways, but these champions serve to hasten that effect.

So no, I am not assuming that Mordremoth is awake.

“Harbinger” is an interesting word choice. Malyck is known as the Harbinger to the NC.

There was no intended connection meant to be made there. I was actually thinking of ME’s Harbinger and the Harbinger of Twilight/Nightfall from GW1 Nightfall. Harbinger being simply a form of herald.

Which is what Malyck is to the Nightmare Court: a herald to show that the NC do not need the Pale Tree.