https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/marjorys-story-the-last-straw-part-2/
He buried his face in his hands. “They took a…woman…into a cellar. They used dark magic on her. She screamed, but it was silent. Her mouth opened, but no sound came out. Her eyes…”
“Okay. Who did this?”
For the first time, the ghost boy looked straight at me, and he said, “Minister—”
And then the ghost by was sent to to Mists by necromancer mercenary called Kraig the Bleak.
People who played Guild Wars 1 know of the deadly spectral agony, the mursaat’s greatest weapon. While we don’t know how that poor woman was killed – if she was killed – I’d definitely consider spectral agony a form of dark magic, and to have a similar effect (even if we don’t fully know how it works): screams that cannot be heard, like the wailing of a soul still inside a body.
We also know Caudecus is very likely to be a culprit for the Mantle. Either willingly or unwillingly, his trachery and the backing of the bandits (whose higher-ups are more than likely to be White Mantle) further their goals. What if this yet unnamed minister (if the person is a female, we have another suspect of the Personal Nemesis, actually) is a real White Mantle infiltrator?
And there’s more:
“Listen closely,” the deep voice said. “There are forces at work in this city, in this world, that will take us all down if we let them. Together, you and I can make a difference.”
The mysterious Mister E tells this to Marjory. And it doesn’t sound good at all, especially when this prospect can be aligned with the threat of an old foe of humanity:
Lazarus the Dire: “Accursed human! You have done this to me! I will not forget this!”
Lazarus the Dire: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”
Lazarus makes the above threat in this quest.
It is well known the mursaat had no problem with the near extermination of an entire race in the middle of the previous dragon war. After what humanity had done to the mursaat (pushed them to the edge of extinction, humiliated and damaged Lazarus, etc.), it isn’t far-fetched at all if he has come to the final phase of revenge, and now he wants to destroy all innocent humans with contemptible, imbecile humans who still worship a megalomaniac lunatic.
Any ideas, theories, thoughts, remarks?
P.S.: I know I can’t wait to gut this minister and his/her friends + the entire Ministry Guard brass in the most painful way possible, only to send their souls to Dhuum for devouring or the Void itself. Drax, however, said that the best way of torment would be to hand their filthy souls over to Lyssa, since – by his words – “who else would have the inspiration to come up with sufficiently cruel and unusual punishments?”
(edited by Thalador.4218)
I agree that this tips the scales for me. Up to this point, it was my belief that the Ministry was being used by the Mantle in much the same way as the bandits, but this is highly compelling evidence that at least one is a full member of the Mantle- and where there’s one, there’s likely more. Hopefully, with the groundwork laid for this E fellow (I refuse to indulge such a distastefully trite pun), and with Faren confirmed to have a future roll to play, we’ll be returning to Divinity’s Reach soon, and learn more when we do.
You know Thal, I never put 2 and 2 together, but it definitely makes sense here. Although I think what we need is just a purge of the Ministry Guard, not necessarily a wiping out. There’s definitely good people like Marjory in there that don’t know the evil their group is doing. Just like not all White Mantle were evil, Franklin and Karriya http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lion%27s_Arch_%28War_in_Kryta%29 .
Thal and I have discussed this elsewhere, but my analysis is “possible, maybe even probably, but let’s not jump the gun just yet”. We don’t know how educated in magic the boy is – he may have seen something a more educated person might recognise as conventional magic, and deemed that it must be ‘dark magic’ because it was being used for torture. (To be honest, Spectral Agony itself may not even really be ‘dark’ – it just is.)
On the Ministry Guard – I’d agree that there definitely are good people in the Ministry Guard. The impression I get is that while most Ministry Guard answer directly or indirectly to Caudecus, many are simply the household guards of individual ministers, and there are non-corrupt ministers.
I have to give it to the original prophecy writing team for making the mursaat easily to me the most interesting race in the game. Not because of how they were hidden but just wondering how their society works and if they treated their fellow mursaat with respect or was it more like asuran’s where everyone is a rival
As I told Thal elsewhere, I can see it as a possibility. But like drax, I wouldn’t jump the gun just yet.
There’s a lot of spells in GW1 that removed one’s ability to shout, after all, and to a kid/teenager any tormenting spell could be seen as “dark magic.” For example, Vocal Minority from GW1 would be one such spell.
The question here is, what good would torturing a woman to death in a basement do, especially if she was silenced and unable to talk. I’m more intrigued by what they were attempting to gain from this. I mean, I don’t think the mursaat were just making sure their magic still worked. There was definitely something greater at work, mursaat or not.
Guys, I did say only the brass (the leadership) and these “need-to-know” scum should be executed. I know that there are good people in the Guard, like Ministry Guard Reth, however, he left the Guard, too, when he decided he had enough of the corruption going on there. It seems soon only the vermin will remain, which will make the purging all the easier.
Narcemus, the reasonable people defected the Mantle when they saw the Unseen Ones were powerful, but cowardly beings who hid behind scores of their followers. The ones that fled to the Maguuma were the extrimists who cannot be reasoned with. Anyone who joins the Mantle despite knowing history and the tales about the mursaat is an enemy of Kryta.
And I agree about the various spells that can affect one’s voice (for example, a mesmer mime in Elona who was able to steal the voice of others and place them in jars), this magic did something to the woman’s eyes as well. If say – going along with the proverb of the eyes being the window to the soul – pure, excruciating torment showed in her eyes, then spectral agony is the obvious spell that was used on her. Pity Marjory interrupted the boy before he could detail what he saw exactly.
I wasn’t talking about White Mantle now Thal, I was just giving an example about how not everyone in an evil organization is evil. White Mantle of the past and Ministry Guard of the present have commonalities so I used White Mantle as an example.
And I agree about the various spells that can affect one’s voice (for example, a mesmer mime in Elona who was able to steal the voice of others and place them in jars), this magic did something to the woman’s eyes as well. If say – going along with the proverb of the eyes being the window to the soul – pure, excruciating torment showed in her eyes, then spectral agony is the obvious spell that was used on her. Pity Marjory interrupted the boy before he could detail what he saw exactly.
As we discussed last night, we can’t make any conclusions on that when we don’t know just what was going on with her eyes.
It could be that her eyes were just showing torturous pain… well, we already knew she was being magically tortured, but while GW2 has made things quite visual for gameplay purposes, historically mesmerism and necromancy have means of causing pain without showing external evidence to non-mages of what is causing the pain.
If there was a visual effect, it’s possible that that visual effect would have led us to immediately identify the effect, and we didn’t get to hear what it was to stop us from identifying it. Eyes glowing green or purple, for instance, might point to necromancy or mesmerism being used. Her eyes turning into pits of darkness may also be a sign of necromancy. Steam coming out of her eyes might mean it was an elementalist doing the torture, and so on.
Why they’d be doing it does raise a question, though – silencing her is fairly obvious (so no one hears the screams and comes to investigate), but as has been mentioned, that suggests they’re not torturing her for information unless it’s coinciding with trying to lower her defenses against mindreading (which is possible, especially if a mesmer’s involved). Other possibilities could be:
1) This is a revenge hit – the perpetrators didn’t want anything except for her to die in the most hideously painful method they could arrange.
2) The torture was secondary to the perpetrators doing something else to her soul, such as extracting it to make use of it for some resource. Powering a construct, such as a jade armour/bow/cloak or an Inquest golem, would be one logical possibility – note that whatever the intended fate for her soul is, the ritual here may have simply put her into a receptacle for later use. Another possibility might be because this is aiming to create some form of spectral undead.
3) What the torturers were targeting is actually in the Mists – they’re aiming to drive her spirit insane so that when she arrives in the Mists, she’s a vengeful tormented spirit that will cause trouble in the Mists.
I probably would say that a WM is probably more likely than the other possibilities – but the other possibilities are definitely still strong contenders. I’d also say that, in my opinion, it’s highly unlikely to be Spectral Agony – it doesn’t seem the sort of thing that a mursaat would feel the need to take part in personally, and they’ve been showing to be sparing in granting Spectral Agony to others. (Mind you, if it is just Lazarus left, he might be more willing to hand that out to enhance his allies – but, OTOH, he would probably also want to avoid tipping his hand to the Shining Blade.)
One thing I would say is that we shouldn’t jump the gun and assuming the Minister in question is the usual suspect. There’s a story step that involves rescuing someone from Caudecus’ clutches, and from memory his interrogator doesn’t use magical techniques (the rescuee speaks of and appears to be physically beaten). Of course, it’s possible thathe’s changed tactics somewhat.
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
250 years plus the destruction of lion’s arch’s library could of lead to the loss of information regarding spectral agony along with in gw2 timeline we don’t know how spectral agony would look like or if it left a trace or if even the shining blade know what it looks like anymore. To me this has to be the white mantle just because it fits perfectly into how everything relating to the white mantle in gw2 is shown. Very little to almost obscure amounts.
It could be that her eyes were just showing torturous pain… well, we already knew she was being magically tortured, but while GW2 has made things quite visual for gameplay purposes, historically mesmerism and necromancy have means of causing pain without showing external evidence to non-mages of what is causing the pain.
If there was a visual effect, it’s possible that that visual effect would have led us to immediately identify the effect, and we didn’t get to hear what it was to stop us from identifying it. Eyes glowing green or purple, for instance, might point to necromancy or mesmerism being used. Her eyes turning into pits of darkness may also be a sign of necromancy. Steam coming out of her eyes might mean it was an elementalist doing the torture, and so on.
Again, as we discussed yesterday, of which none are your usual dark magic. Mesmerism is widespread among humanity, and if the Queen pulls mesmeric tricks on a regular basis at celebrations (like she did in the areana for the commemoration of Krytan – LA partnership) even common or poor people would have a clue of what’s going on with someone tortured by mesmerism. Just in Marjory’s story we see three necromancers under one night, so their form of magic should be recognizable by most, too. Elementalists don’t operate with dark magic at all – unless they are tainted or corrupted. And then there’s the fact that all three caster professions have existed for many, many centuries, so chances are everyone would’ve heard tales about mesmers, necromancers, and elementalists doing this and that from parents, friends, gossipers, bards, barkeeps, etc.
I probably would say that a WM is probably more likely than the other possibilities – but the other possibilities are definitely still strong contenders. I’d also say that, in my opinion, it’s highly unlikely to be Spectral Agony – it doesn’t seem the sort of thing that a mursaat would feel the need to take part in personally, and they’ve been showing to be sparing in granting Spectral Agony to others. (Mind you, if it is just Lazarus left, he might be more willing to hand that out to enhance his allies – but, OTOH, he would probably also want to avoid tipping his hand to the Shining Blade.)
One thing I would say is that we shouldn’t jump the gun and assuming the Minister in question is the usual suspect. There’s a story step that involves rescuing someone from Caudecus’ clutches, and from memory his interrogator doesn’t use magical techniques (the rescuee speaks of and appears to be physically beaten). Of course, it’s possible thathe’s changed tactics somewhat.
You gave my answer already. Spectral Agony can be learned by humans as well, and even though the White Mantle aren’t your brightest villains, they would’ve surely spent that 250 years advancing their own magic and technology in their exile inside the Maguuma. If Lazarus is with them, and he’s convinced these dolts are the same pawns that have been slaughtered by the hundreds in the Krytan Civil War, he’d surely give out a part of his secrets in order to bring more death and destruction to his enemies.
When someone’s asked “Who did this?” it is most likely he or she will reply by telling the exact person who was carrying out the torture.
And I don’t know who you are talking about. If it’s in Caudecus’ Mansion… I haven’t done any paths from that yet. :/
(edited by Thalador.4218)
Three necromancers? I counted two.
And I believe Drax is talking about Benn Tenstrikes, from the Order of Whispers storyline.
Marjory, Kraig the Bleak, and E.
Ah, forgot about that guy.
“I sensed no necromantic power radiating from my captor.”
E’s not a necro.
EDIT: Or, at any rate, Marjory doesn’t believe so.
It’s so easy to overlook those little ‘no’-s…
And as I also said: Define dark magic.
Some magic systems – including systems that people believe in for real – have a simple distinction between black and white magic. Any magic used to harm is black magic. Any magic used to heal, protect, or otherwise help people is white magic. If the boy is using a similar yardstick, then of course magic used to torture is ‘dark’ magic.
I don’t think we can really assume that the boy is educated enough to recognise different forms of magic. Historically, until the last couple of centuries only the children of upper classes could expect decent education beyond what they need to do their job – even if we assume Kryta has some form of universal schooling (I don’t recall seeing a school in Divinity’s Reach) and that that schooling includes a magical curriculum, if the boy comes from a street rat-esque origin, he’s probably not going to have gone to those classes.
And, from his testimony, he just happened to be in this cellar, despite not knowing the woman in question. He could just have been that unlucky that the conspirators dragged the woman into a random cellar that just happened to be his – but I think it’s more likely he witnessed that because he was somewhere he shouldn’t. That suggests criminal/streetrat background.
On your argument about multiple necromancers/spellcasters in one night – the only coincidence there is that Marjory happened to have the right skills to talk to the boy’s spirit. Of course the spellcaster that the Minister is going to send to make sure the boy’s spirit passes on will be a necromancer. The whole story indicates that the minister has access to magical practitioners – if not one him or her self – so it’s not a case of it simply being random chance that there were a lot of spellcasters in the area in a short period of time that would require a high proportion of spellcasters in Divinity’s Reach. There’s a distinct set of causal links that have led to this gathering of spellcasters in the area – and for all we know a similar scenario has played out dozens or hundreds of times before there happened to be a disillusioned necromancer Ministry Guard on the verge of quitting in disgust around.
On that note, apart from highly magical societies like the asura or Orr, militaries in general probably have a higher proportion of spellcasters than the general populace, both due to the military applications of magic and because the military probably represents one of the places where you can get the required training.. From what we’ve seen, the proportion of spellcasters in human armies – for whom use of magic was a significant advantage against their enemies for much of human history – is quite low ingame. If magic users are more than a couple of percent of the civilian population, I’d be surprised.
On necromancy specifically: We’ve been told multiple times that necromancy has a dark reputation among humans. Dougal Keane in Ghosts of Ascalon shows that this hasn’t diminished significantly since GW1, and while he himself has an enlightened attitude, he’s served in the Ebon Vanguard – so he’s probably served alongside soldiers who are necromancers themselves, and been brought up on stories of heroic necromancers like Nola. For an uneducated kid, necromancy probably certainly looks like dark magic. In fact, many humans may still consider necromancy and dark magic to be synonymous, especially when the necromancy is obviously being used for a dark purpose.
When it comes to Jennah using mesmerism – yes, that means most people probably have a general idea that there is this thing called mesmerism that can create realistic illusions in the hands of a master. Mindcatting someone with mesmer magic, however, would appear very different to someone without magical training than Jennah’s sophisticated auditory and visual illusions – without the magical training to know that they come from the same school, a person who comes across someone being wracked with pain with no clear physical source, even if that person is bathed in the characteristic purple glow, would not necessarily know to link the two.
As for the professions having been around for centuries – granted, but they’ve been learning new techniques and, apparently, forgetting some over the centuries. The culprit could be using a new technique, or an old one that isn’t common knowledge.
When someone’s asked “Who did this?” it is most likely he or she will reply by telling the exact person who was carrying out the torture.
And I don’t know who you are talking about. If it’s in Caudecus’ Mansion… I haven’t done any paths from that yet. :/
Thalador.4218When someone’s asked “Who did this?” it is most likely he or she will reply by telling the exact person who was carrying out the torture.
And I don’t know who you are talking about. If it’s in Caudecus’ Mansion… I haven’t done any paths from that yet. :/
To the first: Not necessarily, if it’s obvious someone else is giving the orders and generally in charge. This doesn’t seem to be a case like the D&D Speak With Dead which is an opportunity for the GM to be overly literal and generally troll the players – the kid seems to be genuinely trying to provide useful answers, and on being asked “who did this”, then saying “Minister Whosamiwhatsit was giving the orders” is far more useful than “some magic-using flunky I didn’t recognise.”
Secondly… I was trying to avoid spoilering, but Aaron is correct.
As for why the kid was in the cellar, did you notice he hesitated in his story? Woman wasn’t the word he was initially going to say. I’d bet he knew her, or at the very least who she is/was.
250 years plus the destruction of lion’s arch’s library could of lead to the loss of information regarding spectral agony along with in gw2 timeline we don’t know how spectral agony would look like or if it left a trace or if even the shining blade know what it looks like anymore. To me this has to be the white mantle just because it fits perfectly into how everything relating to the white mantle in gw2 is shown. Very little to almost obscure amounts.
Spectral Agony does leave physical visible marks on the victim. Sadly, we don’t really know what they are:
Lawrence Crafton: “On the very north side of the lake, we found a fresh shallow grave that we believe holds the remains of Captain Langmar.”
Dian Fermati: “As such, we believe that Keiran survived the jump into the water and somehow managed to swim to the north side, dragging Captain Langmar’s injured body with him.”
Koro Sagewind: “Unfortunately, her wounds were too great. I think she may have succumbed to Spectral Agony before they even got to shore.”
Here is a little connection.
When the Molten Alliance members were being interrogated in the Black Citadel, they talked about a city looking fella that organized the whole alliance. Minister Caedacous is a very good candidate.
Said city fella first won over the Flame Legion leadership. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I am skeptical that a human could manage such a feat, or that the remarkably small-minded Minister Caudecus would care to try.
They also say this fella is a she so unless Caudecus had recently undergone surgery I don’t see him being the one mentioned.
They also say this fella is a she so unless Caudecus had recently undergone surgery I don’t see him being the one mentioned.
Well we know he has undergone surgery at least once!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/e/eb/Minister_Caudecus.jpg
This is how he used to look like during beta. Honestly I liked him more before. His current model looks like a buffon, his old self at least inspired wisdom. I honestly can’t take the current Caudecus as a serious pretender for power, I would take a laugh and say no if he tried to order me something.
(edited by Lokheit.7943)
250 years plus the destruction of lion’s arch’s library could of lead to the loss of information regarding spectral agony along with in gw2 timeline we don’t know how spectral agony would look like or if it left a trace or if even the shining blade know what it looks like anymore. To me this has to be the white mantle just because it fits perfectly into how everything relating to the white mantle in gw2 is shown. Very little to almost obscure amounts.
Spectral Agony does leave physical visible marks on the victim. Sadly, we don’t really know what they are:
Lawrence Crafton: “On the very north side of the lake, we found a fresh shallow grave that we believe holds the remains of Captain Langmar.”
Dian Fermati: “As such, we believe that Keiran survived the jump into the water and somehow managed to swim to the north side, dragging Captain Langmar’s injured body with him.”
Koro Sagewind: “Unfortunately, her wounds were too great. I think she may have succumbed to Spectral Agony before they even got to shore.”
I still find it skeptical that “spectral” agony leaves visable traces since spectral implies non-psychical. if anything the wounds part could just be soul damage or something other then just psychical wounds since wounds in this case could be translated to damage to her soul or connection of her soul to it’s body.
I agree. If anything, the only trace that spectral agony leaves on the body are no marks at all. That the person just simply died without any apparent reason: no wounds and cuts, no ligature marks, no haemorrhage, etc.
I agree that it does not likely inflict physical damage, but that doesn’t mean it leaves no marks. There would still be a physiological reaction, possibly including spasms or contortions. If it kills straight off, it could leave a look of anguish or terror fixed upon the victim’s face. If it doesn’t, it might well leave them listless or insensible. All are signs that might be found upon the corpse.
I find it funny how the last three posts basically say “kitten what Koro says, I’ll believe something else!”
Consider this:
Why would Koro suspect it was Spectral Agony when Langmar is wounded if Spectral Agony were to give no wounds? The fact that Langmar had wounds tells us she was physically harmed and injured, so why would she conclude with Spectral Agony – if it were to give no identifiable (aka direct and/or unique) physical harm – and not, say, salt water getting in and infecting the sword cuts?
Her dialogue practically tells us, when you take in logical reasoning, that Spectral Agony leaves a very unique kind of wounding impact on the body – similar to how one was able to figure out it was sonic weaponry that killed the Dead Merchant NPC who had blood coming from his ears at the beginning of Flame and Frost. Whatever that physical harm may be. Something that is similar yet uniquely differentiated from other magic.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
You do realize “succumb to their wounds” has been used in alot of contexts not only relating to psychical damage. I guarantee the person who made that comment was aware of the mursaat and their spectral agony and until we see visible proof it leaves marks(yours is as much speculation as mine as dialogue of succumbing to wounds is usually meant “died to damage inflicted” and given reports of mursaat chasing her it’s not hard to assume their most powerful magic inflicted damage. also remember it could of been INTERNAL damage which could possibly not leave visible marks upon first notice).
Again pay attention to alot of movies and western use of english the sentence “succumbed to their wounds” when in a fantasy realm has been shown to apply to more then just visible marks given that a person could use that same term in the soul sense(makes sense given the mursaat’s obvious prowess in soul magic). If your soul is damaged or it’s tether is shattered then your body will die because of it thus “succumbing to wounds inflicted” but in this case soul wise.
Also remember 1 persons comment doesn’t make for solid proof it leaves visible marks given we don’t in what context this persons statement meant. Remember how agony resistance was using the SPECTRAL essence to shield us from it’s effects? that means it attacks the soul which would make sense given we needed a SPECTRAL being to protect us from it and how it’s effects make sense.
Being logical is approaching a subject from multiple viewpoints not just assuming 1 possible outcome to be truth when there are other possible explanations. When i hear “spectral agony” which is relating to ghost agony or SOUL agony aka attacking the soul. My first thought isn’t normally psychical damage(not discounting it but speaking from a logical standpoint i would go with their expertise relating to soul magic they could of easily over 250 years mastered the spell to not leave a trace) but attacking of the soul or it’s tether.
(edited by Pavees.7281)
I find it funny how the last three posts basically say “kitten what Koro says, I’ll believe something else!”
You do the exact same thing at times and that’s very arrogant to dismiss people just because they don’t listen to you and your PERCEIVED understanding of lore. Alot of stuff is left up in the air. Alot of sayings can have a dual use(you refusing to aknowledge this is the same stuff you’re calling people out on) and you’re refusal to look at something subjectively OVER 1 SENTENCE is fool hardy especially given that the whole lore behind spectral agony was that it attacked the soul. It’s why we needed the seer’s help and the spectral beast to use it’s magic/skin to protect our souls from their attacks.
WHILE YES IT CAN LEAVE PSYCHICAL DAMAGE neither you or me have seen the actual effects it has on the body(1 npc’s dialogue is hardly proof you say this to other people as well when they cite dialogue) and just because i think that the ability given it’s told nature attacks the soul and me finding it hard to believe it wrecking the body shouldn’t allow you to believe you can disapprove me because i guarantee all you’re gonna say is “you’re choosing to ignore this! you’re just choosing what to believe in!”
Dude kitten you do the same and shouldn’t have a basis to jab people over speculation when spectral agony aside from 1 npc’s dialogue(which again could of meant the wounds inflicted to her soul OMAGARD SOUL DAMAGE how could this be! no way could this be a possible alternative to psychical damage!) we have zero idea what spectral agony does to the body psychically.
Also remember the mursaat were called the “unseen ones” they specialized in being hidden so good we needed the god’s blessings to see them. They have been working on soul magic for easily over 300 years. I find it really hard to believe the race that specialized in avoiding being found or leaving proof to where they were would use a spell that would do the complete opposite given it’s unique history. Seriously the “unseen” ones would make more sense LOGICALLY to use means that would leave zero clues they were ever there which PSYCHICAL wounds would be counter-productive to how they work.
(edited by Pavees.7281)
You do realize “succumb to their wounds” has been used in alot of contexts not only relating to psychical damage.
Except that’s not the phrase she used. If you read my previous post before last, you’d see her exact wording. I’ll quote again:
“Unfortunately, her wounds were too great. I think she may have succumbed to Spectral Agony before they even got to shore.”
She had wounds, noticable ones. What’s said that she succumbed to is, albeit not proven fact, to be Spectral Agony. You have two facts presented:
How does one determine if someone died from Spectral Agony? The condition of the corpse – i.e., the wounds, or lack thereof. Langmar had wounds, therefore Koro couldn’t be suspecting Spectral Agony due to the lack of wounds. If Spectral Agony leaves no physical wounds, then either Langmar wouldn’t have wounds, or the wounds wouldn’t have been too great that they killed her.
So unless Koro could peer into Langmar’s last moments of spiritual pain, Spectral Agony must logically leave wounds for Koro to be able to identify the great wounds on Langmar’s body to be caused by Spectral Agony.
WHILE YES IT CAN LEAVE PSYCHICAL DAMAGE neither you or me have seen the actual effects it has on the body(1 npc’s dialogue is hardly proof you say this to other people as well when they cite dialogue)
I find it really hard to believe the race that specialized in avoiding being found or leaving proof to where they were would use a spell that would do the complete opposite given it’s unique history.
I don’t. Why would you need to hide your trace when you yourself will never be found nor harmed. It’s like leaving breadcrumbs intentionally.
Take, for example, the greatest hitman. No matter how good he is at hiding, the means of killing will always be visible. He may never get caught in his entire life. He may blend in with those trying to catch him. But the way he kills is still aparent.
Also, given how sadistic the mursaat come off to be as of Arah explorable, I really wouldn’t doubt that they would intentionally leave visible means of damage they do – just to create unsolved mysteries, false rumors, speculations, and so forth. I mean, what would you think is the case when suddenly someone dies of unexplainable wounds that should otherwise be impossible? What would you think if ten people over a century die of such a way? You’d think conspiracy perhaps, but certainly not a race of ancient beings capable of hiding themselves to all eyes.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
It’s possible that Koro’s analysis was that Langmar’s physical wounds were not, in themselves, sufficient to lead to her death… but that they were a contributing factor. Thus, it could be that what she’s essentially saying is “her wounds were too great for her to withstand the accompanying Spectral Agony”.
It is also possible that a mesmer can analyse lingering magical auras on the body, and identify what magic was used to harm them (thus identifying SA as a factor), although finding out what killed someone is probably more a necromancer’s forte (but Nola could easily have also been involved in the investigation).
All that said, though, my points previously stand regardless of whether SA leaves physical marks or not – branches of mesmer and possibly necromancer magic also likely leave little or no physical marks on the body (consider all the GW1 mesmer hexes where the damage and pain is pretty much all in the victim’s mind). We can’t assume that the witness was educated enough in magic to identify non-elemental magic beyond the ‘bad magic used by bad people to hurt other people’ level.
I give draxy my respect and kudos on analyzing this subject in an interesting way.
Now mesmers identifying spectral agony is something we don’t know is possible because we don’t know what school of magic spectral agony belongs to(i’m assuming something similar to ritualist magic if only something close to it). I’m not saying it’s impossible but i’m not honestly aware of a situation where mesmers have been show to identify spectral agony.
I’d be very interested if spectral agony did actually become a usuable skill(if ritualists aren’t added the only similar class that could get it would be mesmers but again we don’t know how it works magic wise.)
You do realize “succumb to their wounds” has been used in alot of contexts not only relating to psychical damage.
Except that’s not the phrase she used. If you read my previous post before last, you’d see her exact wording. I’ll quote again:
“Unfortunately, her wounds were too great. I think she may have succumbed to Spectral Agony before they even got to shore.”
She had wounds, noticable ones. What’s said that she succumbed to is, albeit not proven fact, to be Spectral Agony. You have two facts presented:
- Langmar had wounds.
- Koro suspected Langmar died from Spectral Agony.
Errr… you do know that Jade Armors and Bows apply Spectral Agony with a single blow or shot. And there were four mursaat coming along with the last White Mantle army, all being the very leaders (who stayed back until things really went south for Toriimo and Isaiah)… accompanied by vast scores of Jade soldiers. So what Koro might be saying is that a jade arrow might’ve pierced her and killed her via SA, or a jade hammer crushed her armor, broke a few of her ribs and the energies of SA seeped into her body.
No, because then Koro would have said that an arrow or hammer caused the injuries. Those weapons leave very specific wounds. Konig is right. If Koro can clearly tell that Langmar died from Spectral Agony, then Spectral Agony itself must leave very distinctive wounds. All that Koro says, is that it must have been Spectral Agony, and she gives no clues to it being anything additional…. like say, an arrow with Spectral Agony. You have to work with the evidence that is there.
Now mesmers identifying spectral agony is something we don’t know is possible because we don’t know what school of magic spectral agony belongs to(i’m assuming something similar to ritualist magic if only something close to it). I’m not saying it’s impossible but i’m not honestly aware of a situation where mesmers have been show to identify spectral agony.
I’d be very interested if spectral agony did actually become a usuable skill(if ritualists aren’t added the only similar class that could get it would be mesmers but again we don’t know how it works magic wise.)
I could see it being necromancers as well, depending on just how it works. Shorthand is that mesmers influence the mind, necromancers and ritualists the soul (necromancers we see in Marjory’s Story, where she and her opponent are effectively acting as ritualists).
On mesmers being able to identify spectral agony – Nope, we haven’t seen anything directly to indicate that. The line of thought there, though, is that mesmerism shows characteristics of being the school likely to be most inclined towards directly dealing with magic – in GW1, for instance, it’s the school that directly interrupts skills, removes both enchantments and hexes, and steals the magic of others. Thus, if there is any school of magic whose practitioners can do a CSI Kryta and identify magic that doesn’t leave physical marks from the magical residue it leaves behind regardless of what form of magic it comes from, it would be mesmers. Other professions would probably be more accomplished at identifying effects within their specialty, but probably wouldn’t have anything akin to the D&D-style Detect Magic.
(Mind you, necromancers would be even more valuable to our hypothetical CSI Kryta for being able to talk to the souls of the dead, and possibly being able to divine how someone died. A necromancer, however, probably wouldn’t be able to identify if a lock was opened through an earth elementalist manipulating it by magnetic means, while a mesmer might)
Of course, we don’t know if anything like the D&D-esque Detect Magic is possible at all without technomagical assistance – but that could be ascribed to it not really being a combat spell, and GW2 being more combat-oriented.
No, because then Koro would have said that an arrow or hammer caused the injuries. Those weapons leave very specific wounds. Konig is right. If Koro can clearly tell that Langmar died from Spectral Agony, then Spectral Agony itself must leave very distinctive wounds. All that Koro says, is that it must have been Spectral Agony, and she gives no clues to it being anything additional…. like say, an arrow with Spectral Agony. You have to work with the evidence that is there.
You have to work with evidence that makes sense. The fact that the four last surviving mursaat leaders in Kryta went after a group of three and a family, and then left said family and Greywind alone and pursued the smaller group of two Ascalonian soldiers is just… nonsensical.
Also, if you’d re-read my post you could see that I presented as a possibility to counter Konig’s claims of SA directly leaving marks on a body – in the case the line about “her wounds being too great” actually means it was visible to the naked eye, and not just a powerful mesmer like Koro. The arrow might have only grazed her arm, or the hammer merely broke her little-finger, or anything from which recovery is more than likely under normal circumstances… yet she died due to SA that came with the blow or shot.
(edited by Thalador.4218)
Actually, if Langmar had sustained a hammer blow or arrow wound that clearly was not in itself sufficient to be mortal, and knowing firsthand what Jade constructs are capable of, they could easily surmise that Spectral Agony was responsible. In that case, there would be wounds, and the cause of death would be Spectral Agony- thereby working “with the evidence that is there.”
EDIT: Ah, beaten to the punch.
It’s possible that Koro’s analysis was that Langmar’s physical wounds were not, in themselves, sufficient to lead to her death… but that they were a contributing factor. Thus, it could be that what she’s essentially saying is “her wounds were too great for her to withstand the accompanying Spectral Agony”.
Then the wounds wouldn’t have been “too great.” While it’s an interesting interpretation, the two statements are said separately.
She died because her wounds were too great.
Koro suspects she succumbed to Spectral Agony.
Not:
Her wounds were too great, but not enough to kill her.
Koro suspects Spectral Agony finished her off.
The second alteration is easy enough to argue, but the first? It’s a possibility, but a very slim one IMO.
Now mesmers identifying spectral agony is something we don’t know is possible because we don’t know what school of magic spectral agony belongs to( i’m assuming something similar to ritualist magic if only something close to it). I’m not saying it’s impossible but i’m not honestly aware of a situation where mesmers have been show to identify spectral agony.
You make it sound like you need to be able to use a kind of magic to identify it. You don’t. That’s why spellcasters are so distinctive in their profession – any Tom, kitten, and Harry can tell a necromancer’s magic from a mesmer’s. Spectral Agony is, as far as we know, not part of the four schools (as it not only predates the schools, but the mursaat have spent lifetimes in the Mists away from the bloodstones).
I think all you need to identify Spectral Agony as such is to see it. And given Koro was fighting White Mantle and their “gods’ pets,” she would know Spectral Agony from other magics.
Errr… you do know that Jade Armors and Bows apply Spectral Agony with a single blow or shot. And there were four mursaat coming along with the last White Mantle army, all being the very leaders (who stayed back until things really went south for Toriimo and Isaiah)… accompanied by vast scores of Jade soldiers.
Yes, I’m aware. Though I don’t see what the attack on Lion’s Arch has to do with the attack on the Ascalon Settlement.
And don’t forget the existence of Jade Cloaks.
Besides, I think that if she was killed by an arrow or hammer wound that then inflicted Spectral Agony, well… Honestly, the means to apply it via physical harm only gives me further belief that Spectral Agony itself causes physical harm.
The arrow might have only grazed her arm, or the hammer merely broke her little-finger, or anything from which recovery is more than likely under normal circumstances… yet she died due to SA that came with the blow or shot.
Actually, if Langmar had sustained a hammer blow or arrow wound that clearly was not in itself sufficient to be mortal, and knowing firsthand what Jade constructs are capable of, they could easily surmise that Spectral Agony was responsible.
Like I told drax in this post:
I’d hardly call those wounds that were “too great.”
And again: Jade Cloaks also exist. Non-mursaat who use Spectral Agony as a spell.
It’s possible that Koro’s analysis was that Langmar’s physical wounds were not, in themselves, sufficient to lead to her death… but that they were a contributing factor. Thus, it could be that what she’s essentially saying is “her wounds were too great for her to withstand the accompanying Spectral Agony”.
Then the wounds wouldn’t have been “too great.” While it’s an interesting interpretation, the two statements are said separately.
She died because her wounds were too great.
Koro suspects she succumbed to Spectral Agony.
Not:
Her wounds were too great, but not enough to kill her.
Koro suspects Spectral Agony finished her off.
The second alteration is easy enough to argue, but the first? It’s a possibility, but a very slim one IMO.
Now mesmers identifying spectral agony is something we don’t know is possible because we don’t know what school of magic spectral agony belongs to( i’m assuming something similar to ritualist magic if only something close to it). I’m not saying it’s impossible but i’m not honestly aware of a situation where mesmers have been show to identify spectral agony.
You make it sound like you need to be able to use a kind of magic to identify it. You don’t. That’s why spellcasters are so distinctive in their profession – any Tom, kitten, and Harry can tell a necromancer’s magic from a mesmer’s. Spectral Agony is, as far as we know, not part of the four schools (as it not only predates the schools, but the mursaat have spent lifetimes in the Mists away from the bloodstones).
I think all you need to identify Spectral Agony as such is to see it. And given Koro was fighting White Mantle and their “gods’ pets,” she would know Spectral Agony from other magics.
Errr… you do know that Jade Armors and Bows apply Spectral Agony with a single blow or shot. And there were four mursaat coming along with the last White Mantle army, all being the very leaders (who stayed back until things really went south for Toriimo and Isaiah)… accompanied by vast scores of Jade soldiers.
Yes, I’m aware. Though I don’t see what the attack on Lion’s Arch has to do with the attack on the Ascalon Settlement.
And don’t forget the existence of Jade Cloaks.
Besides, I think that if she was killed by an arrow or hammer wound that then inflicted Spectral Agony, well… Honestly, the means to apply it via physical harm only gives me further belief that Spectral Agony itself causes physical harm.
]
There’s a horrible flaw with your logic there. You’re choosing to believe that it’s impossible for spectral agony to act as an enchantment along with arrow. with the arrow causing the psychical damage i.e. hitting their legs or arms to disable them psychically while the spectral agony attacks their souls. Games do have enchantments which are applied to weapons but they serve to only augment the attack.
It’s sad you’re saying we’re wrong when you show no knowledge of how enchantments can function which discredits your viewpoint because it’s easily possible for the jade arrow to disable them psychically while the spectral agony disables them soul wise. you know hitting both ballparks of psychical and soul to completely cripple an opponent. You’re just putting your fingers into your ears and ignoring people over 1 npc’s dialogue and even then how you interpret it. Choosing to not take anyone elses view points with credibility. You know if you won’t do it then why should we bother to even listen to you in return.
Make a discussion stupid to even have if you can’t admit other possibilities without throwing in “but i still think you’re wrong” even in an indirect way. At least I bothered to admit you’re viewpoint had basis while saying I find this explanation to be more plausible while emphasizing it’s a possibility just like your viewpoint.
-continued from first post-I know this is subjective but i’m not stupid when i admit with how the mursaat work it’s possible because until the game says directly that it does cause bodily harm you aren’t going to be able to say anyone is wrong because we know there were psychical means for her to receive multiple wounds. if not from arrows or hammer to elementalist magic and possibly her fall into the river.
Also citing other schools of magic leaving psychical harm because of game play mechanics is straw manning because we’re discussing 1 spell and it’s unique properties not other spells because we know how they function. spectral agony is such a unique spell that noone has been able to replicate it by chance, having to be taught it to be able to use or learn it. which further credits it’s mysterious nature and properties.
And how do you react to all this harmless speculation? somewhat childish, I mean why else go "i like how these 3 posts basically said “kitten koro and what he has to say” when we were saying that koro wasn’t wrong but were giving reasons for their being wounds which spectral agony made her die to but in our opinions it make her body die to trauma as opposed to it directly inflicting wounds.
Man Pavees you need to go take something to calm down. I have read this entire thread and man you seem to be the one over reacting. Dang.
Anyways, I think both ideas a plausible. Currently we really don’t know what spectral agony does to the body. My opinion it is more of a whole body type of thing. I think it does effect both the physical body and the my spiritual side too. But I don’t really think the idea of a hammer or arrow attacks fits here. I still think of it as the agony itself.
But who knows, we all could be wrong.
Man Pavees you need to go take something to calm down. I have read this entire thread and man you seem to be the one over reacting. Dang.
.
Or you can do me a favor and not presume to talk down to me when i wasn’t disrespecting you or anyone else. Just because i feel strongly over a discussion gives you no right to tell people what to do or just assume how they feel or anything.
Also you don’t need to feel angry to feel strongly bout something. To think that way is to show your ignorance. I seldomly get upset or anything and if i’m gonna discuss something me rolling over when someone challenges my viewpoint doesn’t make for a good discussion.
It’s sad you’re saying we’re wrong when you show no knowledge of how enchantments can function which discredits your viewpoint because it’s easily possible for the jade arrow to disable them psychically while the spectral agony disables them soul wise.
Do you have any idea how active Konig has been in the lore community? He and his colleagues have been cataloging Guild Wars lore since the release of GW1. If anyone knows how enchantments function in the game, then it would be him.
If the npc does not make mention of arrow wounds, then your point is irrelevant.
Pavess, you’re wording – intentionally or not – is rather hostile. Hjorje wasn’t talking down to you, but suggesting for you to take a breather. And I suggest the same.
As to the topic at hand – I really have nothing more to say. At this point it’s just an argument of semantics and unknowns. You said that I cannot prove you wrong – well, you certainly cannot prove yourself right either. Yes, there were many ways for Langmar to receive wounds, but again – if she received “great wounds” from the fall into the water, then Koro wouldn’t be suspecting Spectral Agony, would she? Chances are, she’d be saying she suffered blunt damage. The only way to suspect Spectral Agony as a means of death is if the body showed the signs – or utter lack of signs in your argument – which would lead people to suspect Spectral Agony. If Spectral Agony left no wounds, then you would only suspect it if it left some other kind of physical mark that isn’t in the form of wounds, moreso if there were few to no wounds.
The only way that your argument – that Spectral Agony leaves no physical harm to the body – would work with Koro’s statement is simply this:
Spectral Agony affecting the body in some non-harmful way that is easily identifiable due to simply being that unique in its means of affect. Similar to how Samara from The Ring killed people, leaving their face contorted with fear, blue skinned, and dripping wet.
It is not impossible for such to happen, but it would still be identifiable and leaving physical affects, even if not actual damage to the flesh. Which would still go against your previous arguments for why Spectral Agony wouldn’t leave physical damage aside from the word “spectral” in the name.
And for the record: I fully concur that the skill attacks the soul. And it is why I believe that the titans and Eidolon are immune/highly resistant to the spell’s attacks.
It’s sad you’re saying we’re wrong when you show no knowledge of how enchantments can function which discredits your viewpoint because it’s easily possible for the jade arrow to disable them psychically while the spectral agony disables them soul wise.
Do you have any idea how active Konig has been in the lore community? He and his colleagues have been cataloging Guild Wars lore since the release of GW1. If anyone knows how enchantments function in the game, then it would be him.
If the npc does not make mention of arrow wounds, then your point is irrelevant.
Being active for long periods of time doesn’t mean a person can’t be wrong. Just because she doesn’t give a really detailed report doesn’t mean anything. I admitted it’s subjective and i even admitted it’s possible spectral agony can do psychical damage. she never said the wounds were from spectral agony.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Captain_Langmar it only says she succumbed to it which can mean a few things. either trauma induced, wounds inflicted by it, or any wounds she did have spectral agony made it where her body couldn’t live. We’re not told how the spell works and 1 npcs dialogue isn’t a text book definition to how the spell works. so no it doesn’t throw my point out the window. because his point stands as much as anyone’s could because the spell has never been defined how it works or even what school it’s from.
Admit this topic is so vague we’d probably never know and we all can only figure out so much with what we currently know. That doesn’t mean 1 person can cite 1 line of dialogue in their own preference and use it as fact. I admitted several times mine is skepticism nothing more.
As per the enchantments shown in gw2. we’re not told how they function or how they are performed but we know they exist right? the jade soldiers were constructs imbued with spectral agony so they were enchanted to the core with it anything they shot or did would inflict it. THAT DOES NOT MEAN spectral agony leaves psychical marks. it means the psychical blows they inflicted would imbue spectral agony into it’s victims to further add to the effect of the blow. You DO know people can do from mental trauma right? I’d consider mental damage as wounds(if she was a mesmer then she could easily recognize mental trauma).
Also koro knew of spectral agony and possibly just assumed she died of it(she even says she thinks she succumbed to it). if you saw 300 mursaat chase a person and the person dies you know of spectral agony then you’d assume the same as well since it’d be all you’d have to go with it unless told otherwise.
(edited by Pavees.7281)
As per the enchantments shown in gw2. we’re not told how they function or how they are performed but we know they exist right? the jade soldiers were constructs imbued with spectral agony so they were enchanted to the core with it anything they shot or did would inflict it. THAT DOES NOT MEAN spectral agony leaves psychical marks. it means the psychical blows they inflicted would imbue spectral agony into it’s victims to further add to the effect of the blow. You DO know people can do from mental trauma right? I’d consider mental damage as wounds(if she was a mesmer then she could easily recognize mental trauma).
But Koro specifically recognizes the marks left by Spectral Agony. That is pretty definitive. I don’t understand why you are still arguing against it. One npc’s line of dialogue does make all the difference. Her words specifically make it clear that Spectral Agony does leave wounds or marks on a body. She says langmar died of serious wounds, and that the cause of death is clearly Spectral Agony == agony leaves physical evidence on a persons body. Spectral Agony is such a rare and specific kind of damage, that for Koro to even make mention of it is evidence enough.
Also koro knew of spectral agony and possibly just assumed she died of it(she even says she thinks she succumbed to it). if you saw 300 mursaat chase a person and the person dies you know of spectral agony then you’d assume the same as well since it’d be all you’d have to go with it unless told otherwise.
How would she even know what Spectral Agony is? How would she know the name of the affliction, if it wasn’t something that was known, had a name, and was identifiable? By definition it has to be identifiable, because Koro calls it by its name. You wouldn’t say someone died of small pocks unless you knew how to recognize what a victim of the affliction looks like.
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
Pavess, you’re wording – intentionally or not – is rather hostile. Hjorje wasn’t talking down to you, but suggesting for you to take a breather. And I suggest the same.
If i wanted to be hostile i wouldn’t dance round the bush. If i wanted to be hostile i’d probably just take it to private stuff(which is petty and serves no purpose). Feeling strongly bout stuff and wanting the discussion to be equal doesn’t mean the person is angry.
I don’t mind being wrong but i don’t think anyone likes being told they are wrong for the sake of they think the person is wrong. It’s a matter of respect. I admit your ground has points but i still argue my case. You did admit it’s possible(took awhile) which allows this particular topic to be at an impasse and allow us to move on;
As per the enchantments shown in gw2. we’re not told how they function or how they are performed but we know they exist right? the jade soldiers were constructs imbued with spectral agony so they were enchanted to the core with it anything they shot or did would inflict it. THAT DOES NOT MEAN spectral agony leaves psychical marks. it means the psychical blows they inflicted would imbue spectral agony into it’s victims to further add to the effect of the blow. You DO know people can do from mental trauma right? I’d consider mental damage as wounds(if she was a mesmer then she could easily recognize mental trauma).
But Koro specifically recognizes the marks left by Spectral Agony. That is pretty definitive. I don’t understand why you are still arguing against it. One npc’s line of dialogue does make all the difference. Her words specifically make it clear that Spectral Agony does leave wounds or marks on a body. She says langmar died of serious wounds, and that the cause of death is clearly Spectral Agony == agony leaves physical evidence on a persons body. Spectral Agony is such a rare and specific kind of damage, that for Koro to even make mention of it is evidence enough.
I didn’t say it couldn’t leave psychical damage but I was saying it doesn’t open wounds or the like.
If we’re talking the body having spasms and muscles tearing because of said spasms that’s a byproduct of the mental trauma induced by the spell. My point is the spell doesn’t actually damage the body but effects it causes induces damage by disrupting the soul energy which in turns causes the body damage by the soul’s energys attacking the body.
I think the spell is a very powerful mesmer/ritualist type abilty in that it targets the mind/soul and any damage that follows is pure byproduct. I know(i knew since my original post) that this line of logic basically implicates the spell doing it but my point is that the spell can be tweaked to NOT leave any visible trace.
more then possible the mursaat could change or tweak the spell to leave traces or do more damage or act differently(they did create the spell so you can’t tell me they aren’t smart enough to modify it).
Now as to current day use regarding the OP. I think over time given the mursaat’s drive to near extinction and wanting vengeance(but not wanting to get caught) they’d work the spell to a point for it’d leave no trace to be followed(which got me to discuss it’s current day counterpart might have no real visible trace of it being there or ever having a trace).
If they used “dark magic” then the remaining mursaat would be smart enough to know that since they got beat into the ground before it’d only harm them to have their plans ruined so modifying spectral agony to leave no trace would be very wise.
Again the spell could easily of been something else but we were discussing spectral agony and i was only arguing how it’s purpose or original purpose was to be a quiet clean killer. Last time i’m saying this but I KNOW I COULD EASILY BE WRONG. I CLAIM NOTHING I SAY AS FACT ONLY AS SUBJECTIVE. said this so many times people can’t read apperantly.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Captain_Langmar it only says she succumbed to it which can mean a few things.
I hope you’re not using a fan-written article over the source of the fan-written article.
the jade soldiers were constructs imbued with spectral agony so they were enchanted to the core with it anything they shot or did would inflict it.
That is highly speculative. We know they were able to give Spectral Agony via their attacks (or in the case of the Jade Cloaks, use the spell directly). But this doesn’t tell us that they were “imbued with spectral agony” necessarily (could have just been their weapon, could be the armors and bows were, like the cloaks, simply casting it – except on their weapons instead of their enemies), nor does it mean that they were “enchanted to the core with it” in any way, shape, or form.
I’d consider mental damage as wounds(if she was a mesmer then she could easily recognize mental trauma).
It’d be a metaphorical usage of the word “wounds” then, and a report to a superior about what happened wouldn’t be using metaphors.
if you saw 300 mursaat chase a person and the person dies you know of spectral agony then you’d assume the same as well since it’d be all you’d have to go with it unless told otherwise.
The thing is that’s not what happened and from my memory of the quest in which you can see Langmar, Keiran, and Greywind run off – unless you went with them you only see Peacekeepers and White Mantle. And if memory serves, Koro wasn’t with them.
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