Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to address the comments about the player character’s knowledge of Mordremoth and how that fits into the story. For some players, this may have felt like it came out of nowhere. Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity.

Season 2 of the Living World assumes that the player character has completed the Personal Story, killed Zhaitan, and has attained the rank of Pact Commander. It also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew. Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now) we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

We want to seed Tyria with lore bits and other items that can better educate adventurous players seeking more knowledge on the subject. Keep your eyes open in future releases. Thanks so much for taking the time to post your feedback regarding episode 2.

Interesting reason, but I can’t quite like the idea.

During Victory or Death, Trahearne says that he will lead the Pact through four more impossible battles (exact wording is not on the wiki so I cannot quote) and if you’re a member of the Order of Whispers, Riel Darkwater says: “One down, four to go. May they never see us coming until it’s too late!” Furthermore, in Victory or Death’s journal entry, the PC says: “Swarms of Risen still roam Tyria, and there are four more Elder Dragons to contend with.”

This indicates that the Pact and Priory only knew of 5 Elder Dragons’ continued existence. This means they either knew of Mordremoth or the DSD before-hand. One can easily say “it’s Mordremoth they knew about, and predicted it will have to be fought in the long run” but the Durmand Priory as well as the Crucible of Eternity (the later investigated by the Pact) both show knowledge of six Elder Dragons. This leads to the conclusion that the three above mentions of four more Elder Dragons to defeat means that they don’t expect to fight the sixth one (be it the DSD or Mordremoth), and one final fact is Bullablopp whom is pretty close to Pact actions, to the point where Trahearne mentioned wanting to recruit the Timberline Falls people (“I want you to look into the krait slavers the shores of Nonmoa Lake. Every innocent they capture is one less potential soldier for the Pact.” and “As we discussed, krait slavers have been taking anyone they can catch on or near the waters of Nonmoa Lake. These aren’t just innocents, they’re potential Pact recruits, so it’s imperative that we free the prisoners and shut down the slavers.”) which would include Bullablopp’s home, and Bullablopp heavily hints to the DSD’s existence. So if Trahearne went through with recruiting around Nonmoa lake (there being a hylek tribe and a quaggan village there), then they’d know about the DSD being awake and active.

So if the Pact and Order of Whispers thinks there’s only four more Elder Dragons to fight by Zhaitan’s defeat, has that number went up to five now and the fifth was the DSD? Or were they talking about Mordremoth and are still unaware of the DSD despite having quaggans (and largos) from the south in their numbers now?

So yeah, “in hindsight.” Seems to be undesirably common since the Living Story started…

RoyHarmon.5398:

Would you please consider adding in a quick bit of dialogue (written is fine) to add to the episode in the future? Maybe some remark in one of Scarlet’s journals, or some “in case you NPCs don’t have my security clearance” kind of recap. It would go a long way toward smoothing out an immersion-jarring experience.

And to the others talking about naming Mordy in the instance, why not just update The Elder Dragons or have a “more exclusive” version placed inside Fort Trinity/the Durmand Priory instances (Cear Aval aka Trahearne’s Office for the former) to include information about all Elder Dragons?

Would make more sense and gives those adventuring players more to find.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So yeah, “in hindsight.” Seems to be undesirably common since the Living Story started…

Konig . . . I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but . . .

It’s been undesirably common since Lost Shores.

And when did the Living Story start? Shadow of the Mad King – a month before Lost Shores.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And when did the Living Story start? Shadow of the Mad King – a month before Lost Shores.

Well, no. The Living Story started with “Flame and Frost” with the incredibly stretched timing of it and lots of people already going “this is gonna suck”.

Shadow of the Mad King was just, as far as anyone could be concerned, the “current day” version of what happened every time of year in ancient Tyria/Elona. Only less awesome.

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to address the comments about the player character’s knowledge of Mordremoth and how that fits into the story. For some players, this may have felt like it came out of nowhere. Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity. -snip-

I hope the Living Story team finds a way to explain where the Mordremoth name comes from in a later episode. Because at the moment there are zero in-game sources for Mordremoth’s name. And I think it should be explained.

The Teeth of Mordremoth skill in the Crucible is so meta (how would our characters know the name of the skill?), that none of our characters could consider it in-game knowledge.

Please add something. Even if it is just a book in the Priory library.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Please add something. Even if it is just a book in the Priory library.

If they do add a book, I sincerely hope it is either a Inquest book taken from CoE, a report of all of Zojja’s finding from all the data she stole from there, or the Arcane Council’s brief summery of the additional knowledge they have gained about the Elder Dragons from Zojja’s report , and they sent a copy of it to the Pact, Orders, and/or race leaders as an act of “good faith”.

Because other then Scarlet, the Inquest are the only ones that really have any information on the subject.

I don’t know if it was stated here already (since I have no time to read up) but Woodenpotatoes mentioned in his latest Q&A that we, the player, learned the name of Mordremoth from a mail we got from E.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I don’t know if it was stated here already (since I have no time to read up) but Woodenpotatoes mentioned in his latest Q&A that we, the player, learned the name of Mordremoth from a mail we got from E.

Did he?

The last letter we got from E was the one from the very first part of the first s2 episode wasn’kitten I thought it only mentions “dragons” in it.

Edit: Not sure if there is one after this one, but…

E
Strange Happenings

Character name,

I’m well aware of just how busy you are. However, you’ve heard the theories that Scarlet disturbed one of the dragons. I fear these theories have merit.

My eyes and ears in Brisban Wildlands are reporting mysterious incursions into previously quiet areas. Go see for yourself. I hope your curiosity will spur you to action.

—E

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And when did the Living Story start? Shadow of the Mad King – a month before Lost Shores.

Well, no. The Living Story started with “Flame and Frost” with the incredibly stretched timing of it and lots of people already going “this is gonna suck”.

Shadow of the Mad King was just, as far as anyone could be concerned, the “current day” version of what happened every time of year in ancient Tyria/Elona. Only less awesome.

Go to the Atlas, go to “Our Story So Far” and look at all the entries there. You have The Lost Shores trailer at the bottom. They didn’t include any holidays with the Atlas, but you cannot deny The Lost Shores not being part of the Living Story, even if the term didn’t come about until Flame and Frost, the concept was there since the beginning – and you can see all the systems designs used in The Lost Shores used with Shadow of the Mad King. Mechanically, Shadow of the Mad King was used as the first prototype for the Living Story.

Design wise, the Living Story began with Shadow of the Mad King. But since they “don’t include” the holidays beyond minor mentions, then it “isn’t part of the Living Story” story-wise. But The Lost Shores undeniably is. My statement remains unaffected and still correct.

If you want to stop the pointless nitpicking, then let me rephrase for you: “So yeah, “in hindsight.” Seems to be undesirably common since after release…”

Erukk.1408:

Did he?

Honestly, I don’t know. It seems that the letter you posted is the one WP was talking about.

Maybe they’ll put in a book about the dragons and their names into the Priory-library, so you could say that the Pact-commander had access to those all along.

Hey, you guys are forgetting… It doesn’t have to be in a future episode. It could be in this one if they correct it, and then when we play through it again, we’ll get it the way it should be. And then future players wouldn’t have to play through an episode or two wondering how in the world they knew that name, only to have it explained in a later episode.

It’s easy to revert to the “after two weeks the content is gone forever” mindset that we’re used to, but things have changed. The past isn’t just the past anymore, and if they fix this episode, it will really fix it.

So basically, our character is just as observant as the player. She comes to an Inquest mega-lab that experiments with dragon energy, sees plant-based sectors and the Teeth of Mordremoth buff (magic, ain’t gotta explain). Or even just being Commander of the Pact, surely the Whispers agent took some Inquest data and shared it.

I can imagine her not explicitly revealing she knows the Elder Dragon’s name, instead not being surprised when encountering a speaking Mordrem/corrupted Sylvari that drops the name for the first time.

RoyHarmon.5398:

It’s easy to revert to the “after two weeks the content is gone forever” mindset that we’re used to, but things have changed. The past isn’t just the past anymore, and if they fix this episode, it will really fix it.

Agreed, due to the replyability of Chapters from here on out – nipping it in the bud and adding to Episode 1 would really solve this issue. Just a couple of lines of dialog and a special book(s) is all that is needed. Have a book in Scarlet’s place referring to Mr. M and the players reaction when speaking to the characters is, “She mentions something about this Mordremoth.”

The characters then question the name and then the player suddenly jumps to the conclusion, “What if it’s the Jungle Dragon!” Cue: Inception-Horn.

lol Roy, you have an excellent point there

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to address the comments about the player character’s knowledge of Mordremoth and how that fits into the story. For some players, this may have felt like it came out of nowhere. Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity.

Season 2 of the Living World assumes that the player character has completed the Personal Story, killed Zhaitan, and has attained the rank of Pact Commander. It also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew. Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now) we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

We want to seed Tyria with lore bits and other items that can better educate adventurous players seeking more knowledge on the subject. Keep your eyes open in future releases. Thanks so much for taking the time to post your feedback regarding episode 2.

I assume that means we know the water dragons name too

Nihilus.3015:

I assume that means we know the water dragons name too

They call him Bubba.

Bubba Licious.

Nihilus.3015:

BobbyStein.2315:

I want to address the comments about the player character’s knowledge of Mordremoth and how that fits into the story. For some players, this may have felt like it came out of nowhere. Up to this point, the only explicit mention of Mordremoth in the core campaign was on the Teeth of Mordremoth skill in Crucible of Eternity.

Season 2 of the Living World assumes that the player character has completed the Personal Story, killed Zhaitan, and has attained the rank of Pact Commander. It also assumes completion of season 1, that the player character killed Scarlet, and has a friendship with Rox, Braham, and the rest of the crew. Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now) we wanted the player to make the call by identifying the dragon in a conversation among friends. In hindsight, there should have been more build up or discovery before reaching that point. Lesson learned.

We want to seed Tyria with lore bits and other items that can better educate adventurous players seeking more knowledge on the subject. Keep your eyes open in future releases. Thanks so much for taking the time to post your feedback regarding episode 2.

I assume that means we know the water dragons name too

Players have seen Mordremoth’s name before season one of the Living Story. The Deep Sea Dragon’s is nowhere. If I remember correctly, the Inquest have no samples of it?

The Inquest had a minion of the DSD.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Inquest had a minion of the DSD.

have

I think that members of the lore community have succinctly summed up my own thoughts on this subject: consistency within the Living Story is questionable.

Stephen.6312:

I think that members of the lore community have succinctly summed up my own thoughts on this subject: consistency within the Living Story is questionable.

I would have to agree, but I’m willing to let a lot of it slide because I understand people make mistakes, especially with how much they are cranking out with this season of the LS.

Though, if they do make mistakes, I would much rather they simply come out and say it, since that is understandable, and they can simply try and fix it later. Backpedalling and hand wave excuses hurts the player’s confidence in the writing much more in the long run.

Didn’t they confess they made a mistake in the presentation of what they had in mind? “Here’s what we thought happened, and we goofed up in getting that across”?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Didn’t they confess they made a mistake in the presentation of what they had in mind? “Here’s what we thought happened, and we goofed up in getting that across”?

I believe by now the conversation is more along the lines of “C’mon. Really. After two years and with a whole team of professionals? Really?” and giving them feedback on how to avoid future fanfic blog style mistakes that by now really shouldn’t be happening.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Didn’t they confess they made a mistake in the presentation of what they had in mind? “Here’s what we thought happened, and we goofed up in getting that across”?

Which I commend them for, but it was still seemingly on the basis of our characters having knowledge that was never brought up or shown in-game. I can understand that when it comes to general stuff like one’s racial history, important figures, different abilities, and Asuran technobabble, but major plot points shouldn’t be done that way. If our characters are suppose to know it, they need to make sure it’s in-game somewhere, even if it’s a random little books all over the place.

Like they said though, they learned from this, and they are going to try and seed Tyria with lore bits and other items. Hopefully one of these days, we’ll all be crushed under mountains of information text. Whether they are about the large events that are happening or small little tidbits that give us a better look of everyday life.

Anmida.4058:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Didn’t they confess they made a mistake in the presentation of what they had in mind? “Here’s what we thought happened, and we goofed up in getting that across”?

I believe by now the conversation is more along the lines of “C’mon. Really. After two years and with a whole team of professionals? Really?” and giving them feedback on how to avoid future fanfic blog style mistakes that by now really shouldn’t be happening.

The secret is, it happens all the time with every level of writing. Even professionals manage to muck it up from time to time, and I’ve been assured of that by professionals who I actually liked reading.

All that being a “professional” means, really, is you are paid as your primary job to do something. Not that you can do it flawlessly. (Even Tolkein messed things up from time to time and had to back-patch.)

. . . no, that’s not me saying it’s acceptable. Any more than on a slip (which I hope can and will be patched over -glance at devs-) there is a sudden cry for heads on pikes and pink slips.

Anyway, back to grinding teeth at the re-vision of “Shandalar” into something it wasn’t.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Anmida.4058:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Didn’t they confess they made a mistake in the presentation of what they had in mind? “Here’s what we thought happened, and we goofed up in getting that across”?

I believe by now the conversation is more along the lines of “C’mon. Really. After two years and with a whole team of professionals? Really?” and giving them feedback on how to avoid future fanfic blog style mistakes that by now really shouldn’t be happening.

The secret is, it happens all the time with every level of writing. Even professionals manage to muck it up from time to time, and I’ve been assured of that by professionals who I actually liked reading.

All that being a “professional” means, really, is you are paid as your primary job to do something. Not that you can do it flawlessly. (Even Tolkein messed things up from time to time and had to back-patch.)

. . . no, that’s not me saying it’s acceptable. Any more than on a slip (which I hope can and will be patched over -glance at devs-) there is a sudden cry for heads on pikes and pink slips.

Anyway, back to grinding teeth at the re-vision of “Shandalar” into something it wasn’t.

I agree, of course. They are human, and all of the other backing ups for a slip in a building process. However I believe this amount of oddity really falls in the brackets of “How does that actually go past a quality gauging group?” more than “It could’ve happened to anyone.”
This is not to say the issue really is as insulting and oh my god worst game of the year 1/10 forever ruined as some people make it out to be. Let’s be fair, there were far bigger plot holes from the start and nobody made a fuss about them because that’s just how the game rolled; the fuss happens now because they are doing the two week pocket releases and, since it’s all we have to look forward to (Hopes of the weapon and gameplay updates they promised “but we never specified we promised them” steadily dying every update.), it’s where all the focus is at.
I believe the big issue is that people have assumed that they would’ve learned about all of these mistakes already, not right now since… well they have been there and remarked since the very launch of the game. And this Living World looked very promising, specially how the whole Scarlet fiasco was patched up into a very neat, overall pleasant ending.

Thus making what would be a spark under any other circumstance into a volatile pile of explosives set on fire.

Just a side question, since our character “already knew” the name of Mordremoth, do we also knwo then ame of the Deep Sea Dragon? How is it called?

Qror.7562:

Just a side question, since our character “already knew” the name of Mordremoth, do we also knwo then ame of the Deep Sea Dragon? How is it called?

Yes. Yes we do.
It is called Bubbles, Destroyer of Worlds.

There’s something else in the waterrrrr!

Anmida.4058:

I agree, of course. They are human, and all of the other backing ups for a slip in a building process. However I believe this amount of oddity really falls in the brackets of “How does that actually go past a quality gauging group?” more than “It could’ve happened to anyone.”

It’s been obvious, and I’ve said several times in the last couple months, ANet isn’t thorough with their polishing when it comes to this game. I blame it largely on time management of the project – for whatever reason it just feels they don’t leave themselves enough time to make a push for polish.

I’ve been thinking they are just pushing the scheduling too close to the wire so they can update frequently (or get the game out the door quickly when it’s playable) and not disappoint the people who ask for more timely updates.

It’s one of the very real problems about GW2 for which there’s not really an answer. Luckily they’ve managed to have LS2 release so far without major bugs. (Except the fossilized ones used to make weapons.) Which puts it ahead of their last bit from Battle of Lion’s Arch.

I believe the big issue is that people have assumed that they would’ve learned about all of these mistakes already, not right now since… well they have been there and remarked since the very launch of the game. And this Living World looked very promising, specially how the whole Scarlet fiasco was patched up into a very neat, overall pleasant ending.

Thus making what would be a spark under any other circumstance into a volatile pile of explosives set on fire.

This is the Internet. There doesn’t need to be a spark or a pile of explosives for there to be drama

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“How does that actually go past a quality gauging group?

I don’t know, maybe if Roy would stop taking selfies and stopped hungrily staring at sheets of paper during ready up live streams, he would have time to “assure quality”. :P

But in all seriousness; I would be kind of disappointed if they didnt atleast put a “caution wet floor” sign next their slip up and atleast fix it in retrospective, if time allows it. I would do the Lore a big favor. Especially since things arent “in the past and forgotten about” anymore, because the content is here to stay now. that doesnt however have to mean that the content has to stay flawed.

As for the whole scarlet fiasco; I do believe they are taking rather good care of that so far. I quite enjoyed that little Quote of Varesh Ossa in one of the books in her lab about making minor groups working together and make them think they are working for their own good when they are just being used, which is exactly what happened with some of the centaurs in Nightfall. So it does make sense, in a way. I also quite enjoy that, even if its rather late at this point, that the information that was previously only available in blog posts has made it into the game in the form of scarlets lab.

It is definetly a step in the right direction, despite the M-bombing reveal fail-of-sorts.
However, I am sorta confused why this talk only popped up in Episode 2, when i am pretty sure Mordemoth was also mentioned in the very first Instance of Episode One with the Seraph camp, though, none of the NPCs seemed to have paid much attention to that. Then again, I could be wrong and there was just something along the lines of “what is with these vines?” and your character just goes “its the dragon” or “its mordemoths doing.” but as i said, i could be wrong.

The Pale tree better be prepared for a proper intervention later tonight, atleast my lore-hungry expectations are quite high after having my mind kittened by that fancy cutscene.

Despite the slip up, this Season is Miles better than the previous one.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Inquest had a minion of the DSD.

wait what?

Nobody asks how they came to know Zhaitan’s name.

biggs.4702:

Nobody asks how they came to know Zhaitan’s name.

The other dragon we knew the name from the Tome of the Rubicon, from the Great Dwarf, right?,

Anmida.4058:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Didn’t they confess they made a mistake in the presentation of what they had in mind? “Here’s what we thought happened, and we goofed up in getting that across”?

I believe by now the conversation is more along the lines of “C’mon. Really. After two years and with a whole team of professionals? Really?” and giving them feedback on how to avoid future fanfic blog style mistakes that by now really shouldn’t be happening.

I find that a little disingenuous though, selfish people that can’t let it go so they go onto complaining about it in a different way. Think about how many companies out there don’t say anything or try to defend their actions as “artistic quality”. Kind of wish a lot of them would have come out and said, “Yeah, we done goofed.” That isn’t to say that Arenanet should get away with it, I still believe a fix is in order and this minor error should be remembered going forward into later episodes and seasons alike. However, given they do take responsibility in the mistake – I find that commendable.

biggs.4702:

Nobody asks how they came to know Zhaitan’s name.

In case you didn’t notice many Risen enemies will shout out Zhaitan’s name.

For example:

“Zhaitan demands your death”

BobbyStein.2315:

…Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now)

Even if we can’t all be The Commander, many of us DO play members of the Pact and/or the Orders. Or our characters know people in the Pact/Orders. The Elder Dragons have been a huge topic of conversation among many. I think it only makes sense that anyone who’s been interested in the topic, or even just been around when others have been talking about it, would have heard the name.

Tregarde.6031:

BobbyStein.2315:

…Because of the PC’s assumed rank in an organization that deals in fighting dragons, and that such knowledge isn’t really a secret (but isn’t widely known as characters in the world have no reason to openly discuss it until now)

Even if we can’t all be The Commander, many of us DO play members of the Pact and/or the Orders. Or our characters know people in the Pact/Orders. The Elder Dragons have been a huge topic of conversation among many. I think it only makes sense that anyone who’s been interested in the topic, or even just been around when others have been talking about it, would have heard the name.

That would explain why all the NPCs knew about it, since they know the PCs (who, as we recently learned, know all about Mordremoth).

The question is, why didn’t the player know it? Have we not been spending enough time around our characters lately? Is this a hint, ArenaNet?