Guild Wars 2

So, one thing I couldn’t help but notice was how very few Necromancer NPCs we actually encountered in the game.(friendly ones).

In the war against Zhaitan, wouldn’t Necromancers be an extremely valuable asset?
I mean, if we had used Necromancers in organized groups, we could bring all our dead back to fight again, and again and again. The word ‘casualty’ would lose its meaning.
We could even reanimate the enemy’s own troops to use as fodder, and send the mindless husks to fight zhaitan’s husks, or craft huge monstrosities and linebreakers.

Why do so few factions use Necromancers, despite their seemingly endless military benefits?
Who could ever say no to legions of never tiring, undying soldiers who need no food nor rest?

Or are they simply too feared/shunned by most societies?

i’m pretty sure no one would appreciate a loved one turn into a meatbag.

Zhaitan has successfully “stolen” Grenth’s own priest, I’m pretty sure if he can raise things the god of death doesn’t want raised then he’s probably got a good hold on his own minions and anything else that’s dead where he has influence.

One thing that bugs the hell out of me is Treaherne is a necromancer but I haven’t seen him use any necromancer skills.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Zhaitan has successfully “stolen” Grenth’s own priest, I’m pretty sure if he can raise things the god of death doesn’t want raised then he’s probably got a good hold on his own minions and anything else that’s dead where he has influence.

Not really.
Zhaitan relies either on his plague, himself or his minions to reanimate bodies. Things within his domain don’t just come back to life automatically under his command.

If you strike down one of his followers, reanimating it should be more than possible. Most of Zhaitan’s minions, except a few, have a tendency to stay dead after being undone.

I’m not too impressed that he managed to steal a priest of Grenth.
After all, in Necromancy, the hard part is killing the person/acquiring the body, the reanimation part is simply a matter of time and energy.

Due to Zhaitan’s actions, necromancers have more or less been viewed with disdain in many cultures, resulting in an already poorly viewed practice being looked down upon even more. As such, with the exception of sylvari, necromancers aren’t entirely too common – though common enough.

Even before Zhaitan though many cultures looked down on necromancy due to the stereotypes that they’re evil (this isn’t just something players have but is viewed upon in lore!) and their association with death and “desecration” with corpses, and how a lot of necromancers go power-hungry/power-hungry wizards happen to be necromancers.

SinerAthin.2374:

SpeedFiend.4521:

Zhaitan has successfully “stolen” Grenth’s own priest, I’m pretty sure if he can raise things the god of death doesn’t want raised then he’s probably got a good hold on his own minions and anything else that’s dead where he has influence.

Not really.
Zhaitan relies either on his plague, himself or his minions to reanimate bodies. Things within his domain don’t just come back to life automatically under his command.

If you strike down one of his followers, reanimating it should be more than possible. Most of Zhaitan’s minions, except a few, have a tendency to stay dead after being undone.

I’m not too impressed that he managed to steal a priest of Grenth.
After all, in Necromancy, the hard part is killing the person/acquiring the body, the reanimation part is simply a matter of time and energy.

Your necromancer can only do necromancy because Grenth allows it. When Grenth defeated Dhuum and took over as god of death he changed the laws of death so it wasn’t the ultimate finality it is in real life. He made it so necromancy and ressurection is possible. But if he changed his mind necromancy on Tyria would cease to be a thing.

Zhaitan being able to resurrect someone against Grenth’s wishes is actually a huge deal.

Crossplay.2067:

One thing that bugs the hell out of me is Treaherne is a necromancer but I haven’t seen him use any necromancer skills.

He does at least once in the personal story. During ‘Forging of the Pact’, he summons up multiple flesh golems (3 or 4, if I remember right) after you are trapped in a corner by Risen.

Ehecatl.9172:

Your necromancer can only do necromancy because Grenth allows it. When Grenth defeated Dhuum and took over as god of death he changed the laws of death so it wasn’t the ultimate finality it is in real life. He made it so necromancy and ressurection is possible. But if he changed his mind necromancy on Tyria would cease to be a thing.

Zhaitan being able to resurrect someone against Grenth’s wishes is actually a huge deal.

Grenth allowed undead and resurrections, not necromancy and resurrections.

Necromancy does more than make undead, so it was likely around before Grenth took over. They just weren’t allowed to make minions – those that did were hunted down (or at least their creations were), same going for those who were resurrected and those who managed to escape a should-be fatal situation (injury I’m guessing). Basically a situation of “if you should have died, or if you did die, Dhuum would ensure you stayed dead.”

But nothing says there was no necromancy before Grenth.

correct me if i’m wrong, but it seems to me that what zhaitan does and what necromancers do are two separate things that just use the same source material. as far as i can see, necromancers are just puppeteers, and their puppets are made of dead flesh. zhaitan, on the other hand, straight up resurrects the dead and corrupts them to do his bidding. after all, he gains knowledge of the corrupted’s past life, and the corrupted being is self aware and even capable of speech.

i’m not saying zhaitan pulls souls from the mists and shoves them back into the bodies, but he is definitely able to “create life”, whereas necromancers seem to be content with making flesh dolls, or as the elite skill calls them, flesh golems. and golems, as we all know, are pretty much “magic robots”.

BrunoBRS.5178:

correct me if i’m wrong, but it seems to me that what zhaitan does and what necromancers do are two separate things that just use the same source material. as far as i can see, necromancers are just puppeteers, and their puppets are made of dead flesh. zhaitan, on the other hand, straight up resurrects the dead and corrupts them to do his bidding. after all, he gains knowledge of the corrupted’s past life, and the corrupted being is self aware and even capable of speech.

i’m not saying zhaitan pulls souls from the mists and shoves them back into the bodies, but he is definitely able to “create life”, whereas necromancers seem to be content with making flesh dolls, or as the elite skill calls them, flesh golems. and golems, as we all know, are pretty much “magic robots”.

Essentially, yes. The typical necromancer does not raise the soul when they raise the body. But the general populace seems ignorant of that fact. They also hold a certain respect for the bodies of the dead, this is especially common among norn and humans, and necromancers are often portrayed as doing horrible things and disrespecting the dead so it’s looked down upon as a sort of cultural taboo to raise the dead.

Zhaitan seems capable of both, though, seeing the body corrupted is more common. Given the already negative and stereotypical views of necromancy and add to that the devastation caused by Zhaitan’s Risen, it’s not hard to see why necromancers are generally feared among those who don’t know any better.

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

BrunoBRS.5178:

correct me if i’m wrong, but it seems to me that what zhaitan does and what necromancers do are two separate things that just use the same source material. as far as i can see, necromancers are just puppeteers, and their puppets are made of dead flesh. zhaitan, on the other hand, straight up resurrects the dead and corrupts them to do his bidding. after all, he gains knowledge of the corrupted’s past life, and the corrupted being is self aware and even capable of speech.

i’m not saying zhaitan pulls souls from the mists and shoves them back into the bodies, but he is definitely able to “create life”, whereas necromancers seem to be content with making flesh dolls, or as the elite skill calls them, flesh golems. and golems, as we all know, are pretty much “magic robots”.

Essentially, yes. The typical necromancer does not raise the soul when they raise the body. But the general populace seems ignorant of that fact. They also hold a certain respect for the bodies of the dead, this is especially common among norn and humans, and necromancers are often portrayed as doing horrible things and disrespecting the dead so it’s looked down upon as a sort of cultural taboo to raise the dead.

Zhaitan seems capable of both, though, seeing the body corrupted is more common. Given the already negative and stereotypical views of necromancy and add to that the devastation caused by Zhaitan’s Risen, it’s not hard to see why necromancers are generally feared among those who don’t know any better.

i brought it up mostly because of the discussion here, not because of how “people in the lore” see it :P

There are also different degrees, or dare I maybe say “Aspects”, of necromatic(?) resurrections. We, the players, have the basic meat puppets. We don’t touch the being’s soul at all. We just raise the body, shape it to a form we prefer, and then we bind it too our will.

We then get to the more advanced styles, like the ones seen by liches: the Vizier and Palawa. They can raise a being’s soul and then bind it a their corpse. The subject has varying degree of free will, but the caster still a dominion of the person.

Then we have stuff Zhaitan can pull off. Complete domination, rewriting or corruption of personality, siphoning of knowledge, and all sorts of craziness.

Depending on what they are going to do to the Ritualist class, there might be more. I only say that, because they seem to be blending them and the necromancer a bit. Spell-wise at least.

i don’t see the ritualist returning. its playstyle has been mostly absorbed by the necromancer and the engineer (supply crate = SoS lol).

Crossplay.2067:

One thing that bugs the hell out of me is Treaherne is a necromancer but I haven’t seen him use any necromancer skills.

He seems to be quite a powerful necromancer actually, being able to raise multiple flesh golems at once.

AlexMc.2083:

Crossplay.2067:

One thing that bugs the hell out of me is Treaherne is a necromancer but I haven’t seen him use any necromancer skills.

He seems to be quite a powerful necromancer actually, being able to raise multiple flesh golems at once.

It’s probably more because he wielded Tidus’ Ultimate Weapon

Raestloz.7134:

It’s probably more because he wielded Tidus’ Ultimate Weapon

I sincerely hope you realise that Caladbolg originates in real world mythologies not in Final Fantasy (as almost everything in FF does)

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Raestloz.7134:

It’s probably more because he wielded Tidus’ Ultimate Weapon

I sincerely hope you realise that Caladbolg originates in real world mythologies not in Final Fantasy (as almost everything in FF does)

You can make references to popular culture stuff and people “get it”, but you can never make a reference to historical myths and people “get it”.

Making a reference to Braveheart makes people “get it”. Making a reference to William Wallace and making people “get it” is pretty hard. I went the easy road

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ehecatl.9172:

Your necromancer can only do necromancy because Grenth allows it. When Grenth defeated Dhuum and took over as god of death he changed the laws of death so it wasn’t the ultimate finality it is in real life. He made it so necromancy and ressurection is possible. But if he changed his mind necromancy on Tyria would cease to be a thing.

Zhaitan being able to resurrect someone against Grenth’s wishes is actually a huge deal.

Grenth allowed undead and resurrections, not necromancy and resurrections.

Necromancy does more than make undead, so it was likely around before Grenth took over. They just weren’t allowed to make minions – those that did were hunted down (or at least their creations were), same going for those who were resurrected and those who managed to escape a should-be fatal situation (injury I’m guessing). Basically a situation of “if you should have died, or if you did die, Dhuum would ensure you stayed dead.”

But nothing says there was no necromancy before Grenth.

Well, technically speaking, before Grenth you just had ‘magic’, some of which does what we now call ‘necromancy’, but which blended seamlessly into the rest of the magical spectrum.

More seriously, going back to the OT, it basically boils down to most races having one problem or another with necromancy:

Norn and humans view it as disrespecting the dead and generally distasteful, creepy and weird.

The three allied legions don’t have anything against necromancy specifically, they just don’t like magic in general and necromancy is a form of magic. (Note, though, that necromancers are actually possibly the most common of the four primary spellcasting professions – necromancer, mesmer, elementalist, and guardian – among the charr, being quite common among the Ash Legion. However, Ash necromancers seem to focus more on blood magic than animating the dead.)

Sylvari don’t have anything against necromancy, but I think it came up in an interview – the TowerTalk interview on the lore of the professions, I think it was – that necromancers are unusual among sylvari simply because most sylvari are more interested in less morbid pursuits.

Asura, likewise, view necromancy as just another form of magic, but most asura seem to prefer flashier forms of magic such as elementalism and mesmerism.

Basically, among the five races, none of them really have a culture that encourages their members to learn necromancy. Most races prefer other forms of magic, and while charr seem to actually prefer necromancy over other forms of magic, where the charr are concerned it’s still magic and thus distrusted.

umm, the ones I know from the top of my head are: Jonez, some NPC in the ogre meta event in the fields of ruins, various grenth priests and priestesses, the bald women who summons a champ in kessex hills. Some havroun’s are definitely necros, tends to be the raven ones.
warriors, thieves, and mesmers do seem to make up the majority of npcs

Marjory Delaqua.

Killeen.

From the OP, it’s not a question of there not being necromancer NPCs – clearly there are. The question is why the armies of the Pact and the various nations aren’t filled out with expendable minions created by necromancers that can die instead of living soldiers.

The answer, I think, is a combination of the following:

1) Becoming a fully-fledged magic user doesn’t seem to be anything that just anyone can do, at least among the playable races. I’ve heard it compared to getting a degree or even a PhD – you need a certain degree of natural ability coupled with study. Some races have advantages over others in that respect (asura colleges, charr fahrars, the Dream) but the simple fact is that it’s likely that not everyone can become a member of a scholar profession, and not everyone who does will necessarily want to be a soldier.

2) As described above, those races that show more of an inclination towards magic – asura, sylvari, human – seem to have a preference for other forms over necromancy, which have their own military benefits..

3) While in mechanics it’s glossed over, there may still be a limit to how long the ‘meat puppet’ form of minion available to PCs can last before they collapse however much effort the necromancer puts into maintaining them. Certainly, there’s a limit on how much battle damage a particular bone or whatever can take before it’s no longer usable. This sort of thing gets glossed over in mechanics, but in practise trying to maintain a minion army, or the raw materials to create one, for longer than a few days might actually be more effort than it’s worth.

That said, now that the question’s been raised, I’m wondering why the krait don’t make heavy use of minions (unless that’s what the barracuda summoned by their blood idols actually are). Necromancers seem to be the most common form of krait spellcaster, and there’s a Lychcroft Mere event that suggests that the krait hypnosses have a particular affinity with undead (which is why the Risen hypnosses are the generals in that event) but neither living nor Risen krait seem to do much actual raising of the dead.

Warrior of Azgard: But Zhaitan doesn’t take the soul with the body, so they are just puppets. There is a Ghost in Maelstrom or Sparkfly of a norm in the vigil who says he was killed by risen and they now are using his body.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Grenth allowed undead and resurrections, not necromancy and resurrections.

Necromancy does more than make undead, so it was likely around before Grenth took over. They just weren’t allowed to make minions – those that did were hunted down (or at least their creations were), same going for those who were resurrected and those who managed to escape a should-be fatal situation (injury I’m guessing). Basically a situation of “if you should have died, or if you did die, Dhuum would ensure you stayed dead.”

But nothing says there was no necromancy before Grenth.

I was using necromancy as a general term for raising the dead. Not necessarily the entire magical school involving the life leeching and such, sorry. I am aware you could use various spells used in necromancy still, just not raise minions as you said.

Point being, one does not raise someone from death that the god of death wants to remain dead. Necromancers don’t have the power to break Grenth’s laws, just work within the parameters of said laws.

Beetle.2476:

Warrior of Azgard: But Zhaitan doesn’t take the soul with the body, so they are just puppets. There is a Ghost in Maelstrom or Sparkfly of a norm in the vigil who says he was killed by risen and they now are using his body.

but the risen are clearly more than meat puppets. they are living things, and that life was granted to them by zhaitan.

necromancer minions are, in leyman terms, robots made of rotten meat.

Beetle.2476:

Warrior of Azgard: But Zhaitan doesn’t take the soul with the body, so they are just puppets. There is a Ghost in Maelstrom or Sparkfly of a norm in the vigil who says he was killed by risen and they now are using his body.

Actually, it seems there are times when he does and times when he doesn’t. The less important Risen don’t have the soul, but it’s a plot point in one of the personal story steps that Zhaitan was able to pull a soul out of the Underworld to put into a champion… and Grenth is, understandably, not exactly happy about this.

I’m pretty sure during the mission where we see Trahearne use his elite golems, that he states that zhaitans corruption doesn’t effect his minions as they were never alive in the first place.

Crossplay.2067:

One thing that bugs the hell out of me is Treaherne is a necromancer but I haven’t seen him use any necromancer skills.

He summons 8-10 minnions when u go to save the researchers. Though when he gets the magical blade he mostly uses warrior skills. True Legendarily give you different attack set so it is expected.

Actually, it’s chain lightning that he mostly uses with Caladbolg, even though the sword has a melee attack. Sylvari characters use it in their personal story, so we know what skills it grants – a chain lightning attack, a melee attack (both without recharges, IIRC), a skill that’s effectively a prerelease version of Whirling Wrath, and a skill that’s effectively Illusory Wave from the mesmer. The general point still stands, though, that once he gets Caladbolg, his contribution to most combats is essentially being the bearer of Caladbolg rather than using his own skills.

(This is, interestingly, in contrast to Riannoc IIRC – Riannoc used guardian skills even when still wielding Caladbolg. This might be a reflection of Riannoc being a better fighter – Riannoc used Caladbolg to augment his own skills, while for Trahearne his best contribution really is ‘let the magic of the sword do all the work’.)