Guild Wars 2

Nice post Konig, I really enjoyed reading it.
I have done some small research myself:
-We can’t be sure that Mordremoth is actually the 6th Elder Dragon, Google Translate told me that ‘Mordre’ is Slovenian for blue = DSD, even though we don’t know anything of the actual meaning of the name
-At the Green Zone in the Infinite Coil Reactor there is a skill point, some kind of strange golem. When you defeat it the golem will shout: zero-zero-zero-one zero-one-one-one or 0001 0111 a binary number, in decimal numbers it’s 23. I’m not sure if there is anything in the GW lore that is related to 23 that might could help us further.

But, I think for 99% that the 6th ED has a connection with the Sylvari. I think the 6th ED wanted to prepare its awakening, just like Primordus did with the Great Destroyer and Jormag with Drakkar and Nornbear, his minions would be (evil) Sylvari.
But, why aren’t the Sylvari evil then? Not everything went as the ED expected. That one seed that later became the Pale Tree shouldn’t be stolen. I suppose someone had to learn the Pale Tree how to treat its minions, yet, this didn’t happen and it was Ventari’s Tablet that made the Pale Tree good.

My hunch is that the seeds Ronan found (which were guarded by “powerful plant creatures”) were drops of Mordy’s blood. Allowed to grow without his influence, the result was free from his corruption. While the Pale Tree has dreams, Mordy feeds on Nightmare. The Nightmare Court are his minions, even if they are unaware of it.

@Riselight: Given the nature of the attack, and the relation of Alpha’s attacks to the second-to-last legendary in each path, I cannot see the skill Teeth of Mordremoth which is made of rock, be related to the deep sea dragon, whom we know twists water into tentacles. There’s no correlation, and Mordremoth’s name can have many origins – as brought up in this thread already, it meaning “bite” in one language and being similar to Morde (murders in German).

The binary code translates into “End Transmission Sequence.”

“Your theory” on Mordremoth’s relation to the sylvari is exactly what I’m hoping to disprove. If the sylvari were minions of Mordremoth, then we’d have historical records of them just as we do destroyers. Or at the very least, their unaffected nature should be “mindless and destructive” – but that’s not the case, even for sylvari not from the Pale Tree (Malyck).

Another flaw in your post is that dragon minions are always connected in mind to their respective Elder Dragon there’d be no need for “someone had to learn the Pale Tree how to treat its minions”.

The concept that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion is all too common and, just like the attempts to relate the six Elder Dragons to the Six Gods one to one, is extremely flawed and only works when you ignore or fix information to fit the hypothesis.

@Fildydarie: Issue is, while dragon blood is highly potent in magic conductivity, all evidence (which mind you is just Kralkatorrik’s and Jormag’s blood) shows that they cannot corrupt (well, this is supposedly – I actually haven’t done the DP storyline dealing with the Sanguigary Blade in full yet) nor cause the creation of minions.

Back tracking a tad from previous posts…

During interactions with Malyck, when he leaves he states that his tree is far west, assumedly (if not explicitly) in the Magumma Wastes area or even farther. Also, by the reactions of your character, there are other “Pale Trees”, hinting at a community/ communities of Sylvari, who don’t have a connection to the Dream as our Pale Tree does. (Whether the Dream is something only for us, or if its something that exists seperately for all Pale Trees, I don’t know. In any case, Malyck doesn’t have a connection to our dream). I’m of the assumption that the Mordremoth of whom we’re speaking is connected geographically to this locale, which brings me to my next point…

We’ve connected Mordremoth to plants and plant-like things, Primordus to Fire, and Kralkatorrik to crystal, which all have a foundation in earth.
To build upon that idea, along with the “flaws” idea (where each ED represents a flaw, or an aspiration, etc. Basically where Zhaitan wants immortality, Kralkatorrik represents greed, etc. (I’ll lose my train of thought jumping around forums too much))…

We can take Kralkatorrik and give him greed/vanity and crystal, which both compliment each other. Greed for vanities and an aspiration for things that otherwise look pretty, with the actual crystal, representing both the objects of desire (being pretty to look at) and also a cheap imitation of the real things (emerald crystal only looking like true emerald, zircon and diamonds, etc).

Primordus, having an affinity to destruction, is contrasted with foundations and creation in that sense. Fire and earth are what make the core of this planet, and are the foundation to creating “land” (think Din from Legend of Zelda fame). This also would fit fairly well if Primordus were aligned to metal, as its strong, requires fire (most often) to manipulate, and can be foundational (slight stretch). It makes the contrast between creation and destruction sit nicely with the way the Destroyers handle things (or are intendid to).

And now Mordremoth. With an affinity to plants, nature, growth, etc. It makes sense for the “conceptual opposite incarnate” to use poison, corrupt life much like a cancer, or parasitically, and by being tethered to sylvari in the way we assume, would invade the dream with nightmare (or, is it the other way around?).
(Its quite possible, having the Elder Dragons around since the beginning of time or so, that the Nightmare has existed first, and the Pale Tree and her relation to the Dream only exist as a counter to that initial creation. It would fit with the way the Pale Tree views the Dream, and also with mentions the Nightmare Court make regarding the true nature of Sylvari, though I personally don’t invest too much into it as a theory. Its still some food for thought.)

Mordremoth’s ideological tie might be towards nurturing and caring, as in the way one cares for a child, or a sapling you’ve planted yourself, or a plant child-sapling you happen to be the mother of and want to teach it correct values growing up which are conveniently written down in stone so that generations may pass by and read its words of wisdom so that by the time those sapling-children are ready to be on their own they can make wise and correct choices regarding their futures and interactions with others. That kind of nurturing to which Mordremoth is opposed, and thereby uses torture physically and psychologically. Ruling by fear, intimidation, and forced respect as the Nightmare Court seem to do. Not only that, but the Nightmare Court still have a mirror of chivalry, which can be seen as a corruption/ adaptation of the Sylvari form.

The poisoning/blight seem to fit well in all those options. Poison in the earth being taken up by plants, poisoning the mind, all metaphors towards that idea and such. One option for the Magumma wastes being as they are, is that the poison excreted by Mordremoth (in all senses) is eventually killing off whatever it infects. Similar to cancer or some other similar things, the poison (we’ll still call it) invades the host, lives off of it parasitically, and then either can’t sustain itself when the host has died, or moves on from that point.

For whatever reason I’ve been avoiding making references to Christianity, but there is a lot in common with the ideas of Mordremoth, the Sylvari/ Nightmare Court, and what we’ve discussed here that tie in very well with many of the concepts of Christianity, more from a theoretical point of view I’d say (The way Satan (notice how its close in pronunciation to “Zhaitan”) corrupts people, how people cannot be sustained on Satan’s teachings, some of the feigned care and love he offers and how it related to Faolain’s interactions with Caithe, etc etc etc). Seeing the Sylvari as representing a lot of medieval Europe (specifically Britain), it seems like a possible route for the lore makers.

There is a bit of lore that interests me, and specifically this kind of lore. How things relate to the world around us, commentaries on the human, mind etc. I find it great to delve deeper into something such as this.

Riselight.3695:

-We can’t be sure that Mordremoth is actually the 6th Elder Dragon, Google Translate told me that ‘Mordre’ is Slovenian for blue = DSD, even though we don’t know anything of the actual meaning of the name

Mordre is a french verb (with a similar latin root) which means “to bite.” Given Anet’s penchant for using romance languages as roots for names I think it’s more likely they were referring to the French/Latin verb and not the Slovenian adjective =P

Ghotistyx.6942:

-snip-

His indications to me imply his tree is in the Magus Falls – in what was previously (read: in GW1) The Falls or western Tangle Root (or the space in-between). He says that his tree is on the western bank of the river – this river referring to the one his pod is found near in Brisban Wildlands, though that river itself doesn’t head far west as it but the map does show the continuation of the river, with some portions seeming to go underground, leading south into Metrica Province and then west into the unexplored areas ending in what should be the above mentioned The Falls or Tangle Root.

I’ve had a theory on this for a while, so I may as well put it out there.

Sylvari are in fact minions of a sixth Elder Dragon (assumed to be Mordremoth), but that Dragon is dead.

We know thanks to the Destroyers of EOTN that Dragon Minions are capable of spawning and acting without their master being active, and we further know thanks to Zhaitan’s defeat that they can continue operating after their master is dead. The Sylvari, as it is, experience both of these simultaneously. The Pale Tree, assuming it is a minion of the Sixth Dragon, awoke to prepare the way for it’s sleeping master, but with it’s master dead, lacked purpose, which it sought out by latching onto the Ventari Tablet.

The functionality of the Dream is also eerily similar to the “sight” Zhaitan has. Zhaitan sees everything its minions see and knows all that they know, and in turns, gives this knowledge to his minions so they can act according to his will. Imagine the same system in place without a central figure to direct the data. The experiences would be scattered among the collective, exactly as it is in the Dream.

The opening sequence for Sylvari characters also provides some evidence for lingering effects of the dead Dragon’s will. The plant Dragon fought in the opening sequence is unique among all other draconic creations we’ve witnessed, and could not have been (at least under the Dream mechanics we know of), a consequence of the Nightmare Court. The dialogue about the Shadow of the Dragon implies that it is coming from within the dream itself, not being spawned by outside forces. The Shadow of the Dragon is a literal shadow of The Dragon; a fragment of the dead Elder Dragon’s will trying to retake control over the Dream. This could also explain the Nightmare Court and the physical changes that result when Sylvari join them. By acquiescing to the corruption of the dead dragon, the Sylvari of the Nightmare Court are, effectively, ascended servants of the Dragon. Much like Sons of Svanir can become Icebrood, Sylvari become Nightmare Court.

Of course, for an Elder Dragon to be dead, we must assume the Old Alliance was powerful enough to kill a dragon, which, given what we know of the events of that era, seems unlikely. However, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that the five races mustered enough strength to kill at least one Elder Dragon, and this is even supported by the existence of the Sanguinary Blade, forged from the blood of a Dragon. (Although the Blade seems to be more closely connected to Jormag, with how it corrupts, it’s evidence that the Old Alliance could severely wound Elder Dragons).

Of course, my theory has some parts which lack explanation. Why are there multiple Pale Trees and what purpose do they serve? If the Shadow of the Dragon still exists within the Dream, is it possible that the Sixth Dragon could be resurrected?

I’ve yet to fully research the lore connected to dragons and Sylvari, so if you know of any contradicting facts please feel free to point them out.

Mander.2506:

The functionality of the Dream is also eerily similar to the “sight” Zhaitan has. Zhaitan sees everything its minions see and knows all that they know, and in turns, gives this knowledge to his minions so they can act according to his will. Imagine the same system in place without a central figure to direct the data. The experiences would be scattered among the collective, exactly as it is in the Dream.

The opening sequence for Sylvari characters also provides some evidence for lingering effects of the dead Dragon’s will. The plant Dragon fought in the opening sequence is unique among all other draconic creations we’ve witnessed, and could not have been (at least under the Dream mechanics we know of), a consequence of the Nightmare Court. The dialogue about the Shadow of the Dragon implies that it is coming from within the dream itself, not being spawned by outside forces. The Shadow of the Dragon is a literal shadow of The Dragon; a fragment of the dead Elder Dragon’s will trying to retake control over the Dream. This could also explain the Nightmare Court and the physical changes that result when Sylvari join them. By acquiescing to the corruption of the dead dragon, the Sylvari of the Nightmare Court are, effectively, ascended servants of the Dragon. Much like Sons of Svanir can become Icebrood, Sylvari become Nightmare Court.

Most likely the dream (as well as Zhaitan’s “sight”) are manifestations in the Mist. Also, the presence of the dragon in the Sylvari opening scene is an indicator of your Wyld Hunt, i.e. your quest to defeat the dragons (I think it’s Zhaitan specifically that the character’s Wyld Hunt is focused on).

The presence a dragon in the Dream would MUCH more likely indicate that active presence of an ED’s influence. Having it represent a dead dragon’s lingering will is way to contrived and doesn’t have any basis in existing lore.

The Sanguinary Blade is forged from Jormag’s blood. If you do the do the priory story line you will find out how powerful it is.
[spoiler]Those that wield it very slowly go mad with the desire for power from Jormags blood radiating magic off of the sword ; also it turns a Son of Svanir instantly into a rabid champion ice-brood when one of them thinks it would be funny to whack another with the sword. [/spoiler]

the example spoiler works be god kitten if i can get mine to work.

also have you read any of the thread the sylvari are not ED minions

Mander.2506:

-snip-

A few issues with your hypothesis:

Firstly, dragon minions become mindless without an intelligent enough being to guide them. The level of dragon minion intelligence depends solely/primarily on the amount of magic given into said minion when corrupted. All champions – the most intelligent of dragon minions – are said to be hand-picked by Elder Dragons (and this in fact makes sense given an Elder Dragon has to proactively give champions more corruption and in turn magic and intelligence).

The reason why the destroyers in EotN were able to continue creating new ones was because Primordus was still seeping energies and the Great Destroyer was present to direct those energies and the smaller minions – with the Great Destroyer gone, the minions became mindless killing machines (little different than how risen act without being guided by a champion – mindless zerging).

Assuming the hypothesis that the Pale Tree is an Elder Dragon minion holds water, if that Elder Dragon is dead then the Pale Tree had to exist since it was alive – it could not be made prior to the Elder Dragon’s death. Furthermore, it would have a limited supply of creating new minions, as the corruptive magic of the Elder Dragon would similarly be no longer produced and thus finite.

Herein lies the issue: the Pale Tree is not old enough to have been around during the last Elder Dragon lies – therefore, for your hypothesis to hold water the sixth Elder Dragon had to have been killed since the seed was made. Furthermore, in order for so many sylvari to exist there has to have been a huge amount of pre-existing dragon magic from the sixth, which would mean that the dragons’ minions would have been creating much longer than before or otherwise be influencing the area (just as Drakkar influenced his environment).

The only dragon minions who are not mindless have shown to be either powerful (ergo given more magic) or Sons of Svanir (and even then, it’s always the more powerful ones). And as we all know, regardless of strength no sylvari is mindless.

The second issue is the Pale Tree’s mentality. All dragon minions are devout to their respective dragon, even with that dragon’s death as shown by the risen in Arah explorable mode, the minions’ actions do not change. They still believe Zhaitan is alive and active. So either we didn’t kill Zhaitan (unlikely, imo), or the champions do not change at all. Ergo, the Pale Tree would not be “lacking purpose” and thus would not “latch onto” the Ventari Tablet.

The third issue is your presumption of the Dream of Dreams. You make the relation to Zhaitan’s – and in fact all dragons’ – connection to the minions. Issue is we don’t know how that connection functions other than minds being directly and immediately linked – which based on this (such a description given to us in an interview explaining why the icebrood turned on the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny), the connection between Elder Dragon and minions is not the same as the Dream of Dreams, which is an aetheric location rather than solely a mental tie (e.g., ED and their minions are hive minds). But that’s not the only issue, you forget that this connection between dragon and minions is one-way and only between dragon and minion. The Dream of Dreams is accessible to all through aid, and without aid, to at least the White Stag which is very much not plant and therefore is not the same as the Pale Tree.

Another issue with the Dream of Dreams lies in Malyck, a sylvari not from the Pale Tree and without a Dream of Dreams experience. If the Dream of Dreams was the tie between minions and Elder Dragon, then even if from a different champion Malyck should be tied to that same connection. Yet he is not.

@Gostistyx: I like the opposition of nurturing/dominance! They work well as being means to the same end (teaching about life, the world and one’s place in it) yet being totally different attitudes. I can see that working well.

If the Maguuma Wastes are caused by the influence of the Sixth, that would be a nice surprise for when they choose to introduce it. That does still leave the question of where Primordus is hanging out though – I feel like if he had migrated to the Ring of Fire, we’d have heard about it.

Of course, for an Elder Dragon to be dead, we must assume the Old Alliance was powerful enough to kill a dragon, which, given what we know of the events of that era, seems unlikely. However, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that the five races mustered enough strength to kill at least one Elder Dragon

- or, it’s possible (although it would make any current connections unlikely) that a sixth Elder Dragon was killed in an even earlier cycle, one we have no trace of. We have no idea how long this has been going on (we don’t know how old Tyria is or how it came to be).

EDIT: I’m still holding out for a revelation, maybe a one-off event, where a whole section of the landscape lifts up to reveal the awakening of an Elder Dragon whose body we’ve been building on for hundred of years!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Fildydarie: Issue is, while dragon blood is highly potent in magic conductivity, all evidence (which mind you is just Kralkatorrik’s and Jormag’s blood) shows that they cannot corrupt (well, this is supposedly – I actually haven’t done the DP storyline dealing with the Sanguigary Blade in full yet) nor cause the creation of minions.

The blade is corruptive – one of the steps in that line deals with finding a way to protect against the corruption.

As I was told in-game earlier, yes; and I’m going through that storyline now in fact. But the point remains that Kralkatorrik’s blood (or the spear made from his spine) does not corrupt, nor does Jormag’s tooth. I suspect the Sanguigary Blade is slightly unique in its corruptive abilities – that or Jormag’s blood is.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As I was told in-game earlier, yes; and I’m going through that storyline now in fact. But the point remains that Kralkatorrik’s blood (or the spear made from his spine) does not corrupt, nor does Jormag’s tooth. I suspect the Sanguigary Blade is slightly unique in its corruptive abilities – that or Jormag’s blood is.

well,i’m not saying you’re wrong,but anybody alive was never in touch with Kralkatorrik’s spine for very long lest for prehaps Glint,and she’s kinda unique to say the least.
Then Jormag’s tooth,while it doesnt rlly show it’s corrupting,Jormag corrupts through promises etc.,alot of norn seem to visit Hoelbrak,so it might be possible that the tooth is corrupting the norn in hoelbrak but slowly and less visibly then his blood sword

It’s also possible that Glint found her own way to suppress any corruption from the pieces she found, since she intended them to be used against Kralkatorrik after all.

In the case of Jormag’s tooth, it could be that the corruptive influence comes only from touching it, merely being near it isn’t enough to expose someone to corruption – but carrying a sword made of Jormag’s blood is. Mind you, one could also hypothesise that the tooth does have a low-level corruptive influence over the particularly susceptible, and is thus partially responsible for the Sons of Svanir.

Rytlock held onto the spear made of Kralk’s spine for a fairly long time – long enough for Kralkatorrik to fly south and the whole battle to go through. But even then, Destiny’s Edge also used Kralkatorrik’s blood to amplify their power (particularly Snaff’s) and Caithe’s been collecting some in the Dragonbrand afterwards too.

I really cannot agree with the tooth corrupting norn in Hoelbrak. That would mean that our own characters who are norn are corrupted, even if minorly. And one would think that considering the tooth is huge, that it’d corrupt faster than the sword.

If it’s weak enough, it might be something that all but the weakest-willed can simply shrug off, but enough that a whispered promise of power can reach the minds of the susceptible and encourage them to succumb. The distinction is that the sword is something that would need to be carried, involving physical contact or at least close proximity for an extended time. The tooth might well be more corruptive if someone was to hug it, lean against it, or otherwise come into similar proximity, but still be relatively safe to be near.

My point, however, remains firm with Kralk’s spine spear and blood, if not a little altered.

The comment that sparked this bit was:

My hunch is that the seeds Ronan found (which were guarded by “powerful plant creatures”) were drops of Mordy’s blood. Allowed to grow without his influence, the result was free from his corruption. While the Pale Tree has dreams, Mordy feeds on Nightmare. The Nightmare Court are his minions, even if they are unaware of it.

However, for this to be the case, the seeds that would be the blood would require to be corruptive in order to create minions. Even if one Elder Dragons’ blood is corruptive, another’s is not. And even then, neithers’ blood grows into a dragon champion on its own (though one does create minions it does not become minions) – let alone without the Elder Dragon’s influence.

Re. Jormag’s Tooth, I feel that if it had a corruptive influence – one that we could legitimately miss – I would guess that it was manifesting in the pressure that many norn heroes feel to match its power and overcome Jormag. Its very invulnerability could drive norn to seek out greater powers to beat it, whatever the cost; sounds kind of like it fits Jormag’s influence, no? However I think that it’s more likely that the tooth isn’t corrupting.

The sword is an instrument of violence – swords are one of the few things made for killing and nothing else – so maybe Jormag’s violent tendencies are conveyed more easily/strongly through wielding it? Since unrestrained violence (or killing just for the sake of it) seems to fit Jormag’s M.O.

If jormags tooth corrupts its very slow. Like living in a house full of asbestos might take 12+ years but will give ya cancer

Wait..there are 6 dragons? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons says there are 4. Let’s say there’s a secret one (yours)..that would make 5. What did i miss?

You should visit the Durmand Priory (the location) as a member and talk to the named NPCs there. Two of them mention how there are six Elder Dragons according to jotun stalea.

@ Rebound, the CoE dungeon and especially the complex it is located in (forgot it’s name now) clearly hint at 6 dragons as each room or encounter represents a dragon.
(or in case of Alpha, several).
Additionally in the durmand priory [sic?] there is a scholar reading some book that mentions 6 dragons fighting with the 5 ancient races.

The deep sea dragon (also known as Bubbles) seems to be clearly an existing one, (but I forgot where the confirmation comes from) and drives the aquatic races out (e.g. Quakkan, Krait).

The discussion revolves mainly around the 6th dragon that, as the CoE Lab suggests, is a nature/earth/plant dragon. There are some rather suggestive hints dropped that the plant-animals, and thus maybe the sylvari themselves, are closely connected to this dragon.

Rebound.3409:

Wait..there are 6 dragons? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons says there are 4. Let’s say there’s a secret one (yours)..that would make 5. What did i miss?

The movement of the world already describes dragon number 5.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_of_the_World:
article is around 4 years old.

In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land

You may find him by searching the forum for the name “bubbles”, a nickname the community has given him. As for number 6 Konig outlined some of the hints in the opening post and you can also find other posts by him or others about the 6th dragon.

Mainly the three biggest hints are:
1. the 6 zones in the CoE. 5 of which can be matched to the elder dragons. Logic dictates number 6 is also matched to an elder dragon.
2. According to a priory researcher Jotun lore talkes of a sextant of world devourers
3. Another Priory reseacher says that 5 vs 6 during the dragon’s last rise wasn’t fair. With 5 referring to the ancient races and the 6 to the dragons.

Edit: seems like i am verry slow, 2 folks already answered your question.

Mike Winters.6871:

If jormags tooth corrupts its very slow. Like living in a house full of asbestos might take 12+ years but will give ya cancer

Well, what I’ve been saying all along is that it may be a pretty weak effect. Like sunlight – too much of it will burn you and may give you cancer, but most people can take a little without ill effects. Spending too long near it, though, might be the equivalent of sunbathing without sunscreen, and picking up a draconic artifact and carrying it might be the equivalent of staring into the sun.

In the case of Kralkatorrik’s spine… Glint had been collecting that and other relics of Kralkatorrik with the intent that they may be usable by mortals, so it’s likely that she may have done something to make them safe – and that’s not even mentioning that the powerstone tattoos could well be the equivalent of sunscreen and eye protection.

Umm…There’s only 5 Elder Dragons, check your numbers. Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, and the Deep Sea Dragon (Most likely Mordremoth as stated in the OP) The Deep Sea Dragon Drove the Krait and Quaggans from the unending ocean, and quite possibly it also drove the Karka from the ocean aswell.

@ JazKW

Plz reread Konig’s last post, mine last post or the post by Plunder. All located only a few posts up. Rereading the OP may also clarify things:

Konig is theorycrafting about a nature/earth/plant dragon who he believes is connected to the Nightmare Court and is called Mordremoth. It is clear to me he is not describing the deep see dragon.

A great read, it was some time ago since I last lurked the lore forums and I missed something like this Konig

I didn’t know of this name for the sixth dragon (or maybe 5th as we know his “possible” name before bubbles/dsd?) because I’m still copleting the exolorable paths for some dungeons, but given how it’s used the same way Jormag and Primordious names, and how the Inquest are trying to utilize dragon power for their own interests, it makes sense that this would refer to a dragon.

I can see how the Nightmare could be some kind of virus introducted by Mordy (I like to abreviate their names, like Kralky :P) via influenced Sylvari minds doing horrible acts to infect the dream, rather than being there from the beginning (using indiviual beings with internal darkness gained through live experiences). Their minds are ports with direct access to the Dream database so Mordy simply “influence” or “shows” those Sylvari the way to channel their anger, rage and perversions and this way he manages those dark emotions infecting their common shared database in the dream, which mean the percentage of Sylvari with internal predilection for darkness increses more and more, those gaining a progressively bigger and bigger force.

He doesn’t need to corrupt them, he just needs to whisper in their heads to liberate their internal darkness so this can happen, and just use them as an army of their own in adition to the Blighted creatures. He increases his non-corrupted army by offering them the opportunity to liberate their dark passions (and in the process making more sylvaries born with those passions), the same way Jormag is forming his own one with the Sons of Svannir representing the ultimate predator and “blessing” the more dedicated ones with his corruption. One offers Sylvari curiosity the ultimate way of exploring emotions by eliminating morals from them so they can fully explore their emotions while the other one offers Norn desire to be legendary the blessings of the ultimate predator to make them stronger.

Mordy doesn’t need to physically corrupt those Sylvari as long as he convinces them to do what he wants. And in this case it’s very dangerous as he can quickly spread his Nightmare over a race that is supposed to be natures response to the Elder Dragons, meaning he should be stopped soon.

@JazKW: There are indications in-game that there are at least six dragons. A charr scholar in the Durmand Priory mentions that jotun stelae speak of six dragons (if you’re OoW yourself, he turns out to be a Whispers agent inside the Priory). The Crucible of Eternity lab was made to make use of dragon energies and has six sections – one each dedicated to the four named dragons and Blue and Green sections, the latter with a plant theme.

@Lokheit: I wonder if becoming an icebrood is actually universally regarded as a reward among the Sons. In some cases, it is, but there’s one event where a non-icebrood shaman is working to convert a Svanir-curious norn into icebrood against his will. This makes me suspect that there are at least some cases where transforming someone into icebrood is done more to catch them before they have second thoughts than as a reward.

I would like to discuss some aspects of dragon corruption that I’ve observed, if people have observations to add to/support/disprove mine that would be helpful.

Zhaitan

Full Corruption (Risen):
Completely transformed into undead (dead but animated). Most Risen appear to be insane or mindless (while they usually shout stuff along similar lines, it just doesn’t have the feel of coherent thought). Haven’t seen any Risen capable of doing complicated thinking yet.

Partial Corruption:
The only example I’ve seen is Corporal Kellach. Although alive, his flesh showed signs of necrosis, and his sanity was gradually destroyed by the increasing corruption from Zhaitan’s power.

Special Note
Risen are mostly described as corpses that were raised by Zhaitan, rather than living beings that were fully corrupted by Zhaitan’s power. Not sure how many recorded cases there are of creatures slowly undergoing Zhaitan’s corruption.

Jormag

Full Corruption (Icebrood):
Completely transformed into living ice, and seemingly mindless (I don’t recall ever hearing one speak).

Partial Corruption:
Many Sons of Svanir show signs of corruption (frosty appearance etc), while maintaining some level of sanity.

Special Note
In the DP route, we get to see how increasing levels of Jormag’s corruption gradually drives a Son of Svanir insane, and hear about how direct infusions of corruption (through the sword) instantly turn other Sons of Svanir into monsters (icebrood?).

Kralkatorrik

Full Corruption (Branded):
Completely transformed into living crystal. They seem to be mindless, since most Branded don’t talk, but I have come across a Champion in Iron Marches who shouts stuff (much like a Risen would).

Partial Corruption:
I haven’t seen any case of this so far, the npcs I’ve met are either fully corrupted (Branded), uncorrupted (trapped in crystal or doing their own stuff), or just dead.

Special Note
I have a personal theory on how Kralkatorrik’s corruption occurs, which ties in to the lack of partial corruption.

In his background story (GW2 wiki) Kralkatorrik is described as being surrounded by a storm of clouds and lightning, with a golden breath that blackened and branded (crystallized) everything it touched. Also, the Shatterer (his lieutanant) constantly generates fields of (what seems to be) electricity that deals massive damage and increasingly stacks conditions on victims.

All this sounds like some form of electrocrystallization (a form of electrolysis) is taking place which transforms organic matter into crystal (and presumably destroys inorganic matter, thus creating the Brand), although I can only guess at what the crystals are made of. If the corruption process is indeed electrolysis, and it results from direct exposure to Kralkatorrik’s electricity/energy, then it would be the equivalent of being stabbed by the sword of Jormag’s blood (instant full corruption). Partial corruption would only be possible if Kralkatorrik’s power also takes the form of radiation, in which prolonged exposure will increase the level of corruption (no sign of this though… either you get blasted or you don’t).

Also, the crystals themselves don’t appear to spread corruption, but rather are just the result (and might be a power source, as the Shatterer draws energy from them to heal itself), therefore being trapped in crystal does not seem to corrupt the victim.

(continued next post)

Primordus

Full Corruption (Destroyer):
Completely transformed into living magma, and seemingly mindless. Not enough is known of the corruption process or what the destroyers originally were to deduce anything substantial.

Partial Corruption:
I haven’t seen any instance of partial corruption for Primordus.

Special Note
The dwarves transformed themselves into living stone to fight the forces of Primordus. This would suggest that Primordus is unable to corrupt stone, or at least less able to corrupt stone than flesh… although having a stone body also has a practical purpose in fighting enemies of magma.

Also, while it is suggested that destroyers may have once been living creatures (speculation that the egg-laying destroyers were pregnant before being corrupted), I personally believe that destroyers were never living creatures to begin with, and are instead artificial life forms created by Primordus by corrupting lava.

…and so we come to

Mordremoth

Corruption:
Based on Jormag’s (and to a lesser extent, Zhaitan’s) partial corruption, it might be possible for the Sylvari of the Nightmare Court to be corrupted, yet fully in possession of their mental abilities. Physical transformation has already been noted in many members of the Nightmare Court. If they are truly under the affect of dragon corruption, it might just be a matter of time before the corruption reaches critical levels and the Nightmare Court transforms into… something else. This is just my speculation, however.

Special Note
Due to Malyck showing up, we are made aware of the possibility of the existence of at least one other ‘Pale Tree’. How long has this other tree existed? Are there more trees like that beyond our known borders? Could Sylvari (or their cousins) have existed outside our borders for ages, completely unknown to us, and only introduced by accident to our area by Ronan’s chance discovery of the seeds in the cave? While the Sylvari are a new race to our area, it doesn’t rule out the possibility that they are an ancient race on a much, much larger map, and that they have been the victim of dragon corruption (note: different from being created by dragon corruption) in previous ages. Again, this is just my speculation.

Except that Primordus’s minions were lava and rock from the start – he corrupts rock and lava, not living beings. This was a stated thing (by the devs iirc) and even the mentors all mention how it’s either a being formerly pregnant or a new type of minion – meaning they don’t know the situation, which implies that they don’t know Primordus, for whatever reason, doesn’t corrupt living beings. If you look at these “eggs” they look too unlike normal eggs – that is to say, they appear to me to be mobile spawning pools (what the destroyers are made from per Edge of Destiny). This is supported not only by their size but also the fact that not only Destroyer Crablings, but Destroyer Crabs (and iirc, Destroyer Trolls) spawn from these “eggs.”

I don’t think we’ve seen any “physical corruption” in the Nightmare Court – that is, in the sylvari. People tend to point out how their appearance is darker, but that’s certainly not unique to the Nightmare Court, but is unique to the grunts of the Nightmare Court – the special NPC members, such as Gavin, are a much lighter color. Nightmare Courtiers are, with the exception of their personality, able to mingle into the populas of sylvari.

Given the placement of Ronan, the cave had to be in the Maguuma Jungle – but likely in the western edge that’s unexplorable in GW2 (and possibly GW1); given the proximity, I find it unlikely that the sylvari are an ancient race that somehow managed to avoid detection when Krytan trade routes went to the western coast through the Maguuma Jungle during the Guild Wars.

While Primordus only corrupts rock and lava, is it also confirmed that he cannot corrupt living beings (or just a deduction, since rock and lava tend not to be alive)? Because this would affect whether the dwarves, being living stone (rock), could be corrupted.

At relatively low levels of corruption, there is almost no noticeable difference between Sons of Svanir and the average Norn (there’s a Sons of Svanir enclave inside Hoelbrak), so it’s unsurprising that the average Nightmare Court can pass as normal Sylvari in the Grove. The physical corruption I’m referring to is not about skin (leaf?) color; while at casual glance Nightmare Court don’t look any different from Sylvari, from what I’ve seen all of them have eyes that are completely black, and I haven’t seen this in normal Sylvari NPCs (it is possible to customize your character to have completely black eyes, however).

Although the cave itself might be located in the Maguuma Jungle, and most likely within explorable range of our known map (Ronan found the cave after getting lost on a patrol mission, it’s hard to imagine he could have wandered very far), the fact still remains that the only things recorded about the cave were seeds and guardians. This would raise the question of where these seeds came from, as all the info I’ve read about the cave makes no mention of a tree or any other likely origin for the seeds. Considering that the existence of Malyck’s tree was never known until Malyck showed up (and nothing says that Malyck’s tree also grew from a seed from that same cave) it is possible that these trees may have been in existence in other unknown places before Ronan ever found that cave (‘ancient race’ might certainly be stretching it, but the possibility still exists). The cave may also be far from any other existing tree; if we view the seeds in the cave as ‘stolen property’, it would make sense for whoever put them there to hide them as far as possible from where they originally came from. However, all this assumes that the seeds were not a natural product of that cave, and were instead transported there from somewhere else and hidden, then accidentally discovered by Ronan. Ultimately, we still don’t know enough about the origins of the seeds and trees to accurately guess at the history of the Sylvari, all we can do is narrow down the possibilities based on what we do know.

It’s not so much that Primordus can’t, but rather that he doesn’t. We’re told that each Elder Dragon corrupts and acts differently, and we’ve only been told that Primordus twists rock and lava – the only case of a being turned into a destroyer we see is in CoE story mode which is far from credible given how a kodan is turned into a branded charr, and a human into an icebrood quaggan (which minions they turn into seems to be random, as is their own model).

I suspect that its a choice to not corrupt anything that is or was organic, rather than being incapable of such.

Not all Sons of Svanir are corrupted – those who appear like average norn aren’t corrupted at all, yet. And in fact, few Sons of Svanir are corrupted – only the leaders, though not all of them, are corrupted and use icebrood models.

And like the darker skin, for Nightmare Courtiers, the higher members – including Faolain iirc- certainly don’t all have black eyes.

The reason why I listed examples of full and partial corruption for the various dragons in my original post was to show that corruption is a process, with physical and mental changes becoming more and more apparent with an increasing level of corruption (you could call this stage 0/1/2 corruption).

This is especially easy to observe in Sons of Svanir, as they range from having no physical difference from other Norn (stage 0: no/minor corruption), to having frosty hair and blue skin (stage 1: partial/major corruption), and then to becoming mindless monsters of living ice (stage 2: complete corruption). Stage 1 partly corrupted Sons of Svanir are fairly common, and by no means only restricted to leadership. Stage 2 fully corrupted Icebrood Norn, while not a frequent sight, can still be found as common enemies. On the other hand, Sons of Svanir leadership (or uniquely powerful versions) can be found at all stages of corruption.

My point here is that corruption refers to the entire process, and not just the final result (stage 2), so a corrupted Son of Svanir could look just like any other Norn and still be corrupted (stage 0).

Drawing a parallel to this, if Nightmare Courtiers are corrupted, they would still be at stage 0 (at most minor corruption), where physical changes are not readily apparent. This is just to open up the possibility that they are corrupted, and not justifying that claim.

I can’t say whether all the high ranking Nightmare Courtiers have black eyes; I certainly haven’t met all of them yet. However, the strongest impression I had of the Nightmare Court was of how evil their eyes looked (like windows into the empty void of their soul), and I remember spending time wandering around Briarthorn Den just looking at their eyes. The images I’ve found of Nightmare Courtiers (and Faolain, in the GW2 wiki) also depict them with black eyes, but there may be other pictures that I haven’t found. While I don’t deny that ‘all Nightmare Courtiers have black eyes’ is merely my speculation, it would be more reasonable to disprove it with a confirmed instance of a Nightmare Courtier without black eyes, than with a hazy recollection.

Regarding Primordus, my questions about the nature of his ability is because I’m trying to work out what each dragon corrupts (in this case, meaning ‘warp’ or ‘twist’). Zhaitan could represent the corruption of death (and not life; the twist on death is that undead are technically dead), and Jormag possibly represents the corruption of power (the twist on power is that the greater the power the greater the monster). Mordremoth (based on the original discussion) could represent the corruption of growth (the twist on growth being mutated growth/blight). Kralkatorrik is a mystery to me, as his minions don’t seem to embody any particular twisted aspect. I believe that Primordus could represent the corruption of life (the twist on life being that only nonliving objects are given artificial life; might just be twisting words though). The elements associated with each dragon also seem to be unrelated to the aspect they represent, and instead seem to be selected based on their location.

regfurby.4296:

Regarding Primordus, my questions about the nature of his ability is because I’m trying to work out what each dragon corrupts (in this case, meaning ‘warp’ or ‘twist’). Zhaitan could represent the corruption of death (and not life; the twist on death is that undead are technically dead), and Jormag possibly represents the corruption of power (the twist on power is that the greater the power the greater the monster). Mordremoth (based on the original discussion) could represent the corruption of growth (the twist on growth being mutated growth/blight). Kralkatorrik is a mystery to me, as his minions don’t seem to embody any particular twisted aspect. I believe that Primordus could represent the corruption of life (the twist on life being that only nonliving objects are given artificial life; might just be twisting words though). The elements associated with each dragon also seem to be unrelated to the aspect they represent, and instead seem to be selected based on their location.

If this theory of minions being a twisted/corrupted aspect of what the dragon desires/promises is correct (and we certainly don’t have enough evidence to say one way or another), I would guess Kralkatorrik represents the corruption of a desire for perfection — in that, if something is to be without flaws it has to become increasingly more rigid and structured (like a crystal).

<Original credit for the idea of perfection goes to Konig>

@Regfurby: Except that the only dragon to have “partial corruption” is Jormag and Jormag alone – and this is because he first corrupts mentally and the bodies turn to ice slowly (per Edge of Destiny, chapter 1 iirc), so in a way even that’s not a partial corruption but a full one and the body just takes time to change (the only arguable partial corruptions are the Sons of Svanir, but all icebrood become more ice-filled as time progresses be they willingly or forced corruptions). Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan both corrupt fully immediately. Primordus is a bit of a question – it seems it takes time for destroyers to form, based off of Edge of Destiny, but there’s still only “rocks and lava” and “destroyer” stages.

The Sons of Svanir’s “blue skin” is actually ice – their arms and legs turn to ice first, based on the various models, and many grow ice horns too. As time goes on, their entire bodies get turned to ice (the oakheart-like icebrood norn and icebrood goliath models), then the ice expands (icebrood colossus model). But they’re all corrupted fully even as ice is forming.

Of those who are actually called Sons of Svanir and use an icebrood model (your “stage 1”), they are indeed all shamans, zealots, and other stronger/higher ranked members – and in fact, it’s because they’re turning/turned into icebrood that they’re higher ranked members – per norn blog post. Those which are not leaders of the Sons of Svanir but are corrupted are not ever called Sons of Svanir, but icebrood – this is because they’re your run of the mill mindless dragon minion (whereas the SoS leaders are more akin to champions – not only are they higher ranked in the SoS but they’re higher ranked in the icebrood leadership too, having been given more magic and thus more intelligence – presuming that fact for icebrood is the same as how Zhaitan works).

The only high ranking SoS member who’s a “stage 2” (again, as you put it) icebrood is the Wayfarer Foothills meta event boss, which never speaks iirc and was, in fact, locked up in the largest steading. Seemed more like a pet than a leader.

As to NC without black eyes, I have no images but this video does have Gavin, a high ranking NC member, who is both light colored and, though the image is small, his eyes look green to me. Briarthorn Den is a very poor example, btw, as it uses the generic NC models throughout, which using them for a basis would be like saying all Flame Legion have orange fur with white stripes (a common fur combination of generic non-shaman FL personel).

As for what dragons twist – you’re mixing up two concepts that seem to be behind the Elder Dragons. From my observations, and though this is still theory as it stands, each Elder Dragon seems to hold not only an element, but also a desire/mentality/persona/etc. To this I’d link the ED as such:

Zhaitan: Element=Rot (I disagree with death/undeath because CoE has a swamp for his zone and even immediately turned minions turn gray and rotten, so it’s not simple undeath); Desire=Immortality
Jormag: Element=Ice; Desire=Power
Kralkatorrik: Element=Crystal; Desire=Greed/Perfection
Primordus: Element=Fire; Desire=Genocide
DSD: Element=Water; Desire=too hard to tell
Mordremoth: Element=Plants(?); Desire=sadism(?)

My reasoning behind their desire is talked about in this thread (sans Mordremoth, since I hadn’t researched him fully at the time), though the conversation was carried into a new thread here.

The thing to note about their element is that 1) Kralkatorrik made his element, so its not related to his location for him; 2) the risen become rotten regardless of the body’s state prior to being so; 3) icebrood bodies become ice, rather than being merged with it, which would be the case if it were related to its surroundings; 3) destroyers make volcanic areas for their “breeding” zones (I use the term “breeding” loosely and mean "a place where they make more of themselves via corrupting the newly made magmic areas). If their element was based on their location, then these things would not be true – or at least be necessary – and we’d be seeing non-fiery destroyers and non-crystalline branded.

I went to check on some of the things you said.

The Champion Svanir Marauder in Svanir’s Dome (Wayfarer Foothills meta): he does, in fact, speak. This surprised me too. While using an Icebrood model he does not have Icebrood in his name… this led me to check the next item.

All Sons of Svanir showing signs of corruption are labelled as Icebrood: I checked Wayfarer Foothills, Snowden Drifts and Dredgehaunt Cliffs; this seems to be accurate. I also found a video of the Mightier than the Sword encounter (DP story), where multiple occasions of Sons of Svanir suddenly transforming into icebrood can be observed. All these support your view that Icebrood corruption is immediate and complete (full body transformation), with the larger Icebrood forms an indicator of duration rather than severity of corruption. The Champion Svanir Marauder is likely just an anomaly in naming.

Not all Nightmare Courtiers have black eyes: I didn’t want to use Gavin as an example, as although he professes to be part of the Nightmare Court, his character is decidedly un-Nightmare Court-like. However, while watching the video, I did spot a Nightmare Recruiter with green eyes, so this was proven to be true anyway.

Dragon desires: This is the phrasing I was looking for (more accurate than perversion/corruption/aspect etc). With the correct phrasing it’s easier to describe the dragons (for example, to call Zhaitan the aspect of immortality doesn’t fit, but the desire of immortality fits). This was also why I couldn’t find a way to describe Kralkatorrik. The links were an interesting read btw.

Dragon elements: I meant that the dragons (and not their minions) chose their element based on their original location; Primordus awoke deep underground among rock and lava, Jormag awoke in the far north among snow and ice, Zhaitan awoke beneath an ancient submerged rotting city (other than rot, he seems to like coral, barnacles, tentacle-things and suddenly bursting out from the water), and Kralkatorrik awoke as a ‘mountain’ in the middle of a lake (my OP has a theory on how Kralkatorrik might be using electricity to create the crystals; he is described as being surrounded by storm clouds and having ‘golden breath’, and his original location might have been frequently subject to storms… my belief is that his element is electricity rather than crystal). All these suggest that the dragons simply took as their element whatever they were in contact with when they awoke, and not in relation to their desire (for example, Glint, who was a champion of Kralkatorrik in his previous awakening, looks nothing like the Shatterer or other Branded minions).

regfurby.4296:

Zhaitan

Full Corruption (Risen):
Completely transformed into undead (dead but animated). Most Risen appear to be insane or mindless (while they usually shout stuff along similar lines, it just doesn’t have the feel of coherent thought). Haven’t seen any Risen capable of doing complicated thinking yet.

There are several issues with these observations. First, the more corrupted magic Zhaitan feeds back into the corpse, the more “independent” and self-conscious it becomes.

So far, I’ve observed the following types of mental/spiritual corruption in Risen:

- Mindless, zerging zombies: animals such as chickens and bulls, and the thralls who were turned by simple minions and were not exposed to a dragon champion or Zhaitan’s “pure” essence. These undead most likely don’t have their soul and real consciousness trapped inside their corpse; as proven by Crusader Aliyana in Mount Maelstrom: she fell sick before her unit went to battle, her comrades died and were reanimated, but they knew where Aliyana was so they killed her and raised her corpse. However, her spirit remained untouched and she’s haunted by what her mortal vessel had become. Also, Romke – the norn explorer – and his crew were killed and reanimated by the risen when Orr rose, however, their spirits live on, uncorrupted.

The only thing that makes these stand out is that they’re continuing the daily routines they’d been doing in their lives if left undisturbed. Risen roosters crow in the morning, farmers till the barren, defiled land, servants try to repair the broken things around Orr, etc. I discussed it with Konig and came to the conclusion that it could be some form of instinctual behavior embedded deep into their bodies. Imprints in their decayed, damaged brains that somehow were preserved to some degree. But in no way they are conscious. Or in other words: there’s no indoctrinated soul bound to the corpse.

- The next type consist of the risen who have absorbed enough of Zhaitan’s corruption that it could entrap the soul. While their primal motives are still pretty much “go forth and kill to spread undeath” they have moments when the influenced/indoctrinated soul emerges for a brief moment. The captains of Zhaitan’s armada (a risen asura captain who was a gladiator in life recalls having known Ellie – another asura – but then goes on to try and kill us all), lieutenants and “officers” are what I consider to be the bulk of this group, with Risen wizards, some nobles and special cases (the Risen Groundskeeper in the Winterknell Labyrinth) retaining the most of their pre-undeath life.

This group is already capable of realizing when they are freed of the dragon’s curse at last: “Finally…” ; “Rest…” ; “I’m so… tired…” ; “Release…” etc.

- And lastly, the most powerful of the Risen are actually those who have been well-known (Zhaitan may have understood that these people were leaders in life, and could do well commandeering the less-independent hordes) and powerful in life, and while they are also forced back into their decaying bodies and made to serve Zhaitan, they retain their whole personality – albeit twisted by the dragon’s own ideologies: they are Zhaitan’s champions.

High priests and priestesses of the gods, kings and queens of Orr, famous historians (Thadeus Lamount), princes of the Orrian royalty, archwizards and sorceresses, and even the first Krytan king (also a son of Orr). While in some cases Zhaitan could actually get his rotten hands on the souls as well (I bet many who died in the Cataclysm didn’t want to pass on to the Mists due to their home destroyed and their body unburied) like in Reza’s case. However, we learn from the Avatar of Grenth that Zhaitan can actually steal souls from the afterlife. The only way this can be explained is that Zhaitan uses exorbitant amount of corrupting magic that somehow affects the spirit in the Mists as well, dragging it back to Tyria. Or, the writers returned to the very old lore on souls: that some never pass on but choose to stay with their corpse. Either way could give good interpretation on how Zhaitan corrupted the centuries-long-dead Mazdak in his tomb.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jormag: Element=Ice; Desire=Power

Mordremoth: Element=Plants(?); Desire=sadism(?)

I don’t think Mordremoth fancies sadism, but rather he’s much more interested in ensuring that only the strong survive via (un-)natural selection.

Here’s something I rediscovered not so long ago, supporting the theory of the Nightmare Court being related to Mordremoth (well, how we envision him right now):

“…we gather in nightmare. We look to the darkest part of our spirits. The covetous hand, the lying heart, the knife that betrays a friend: we call upon these, and we see their power. For what are we, in the end, if not creatures of power? … we must learn from the poison thorn and the stinging nettle, the vine that crushes the very sapling which holds it to the light. We will raise the nightmare. We will see Tyria remade in our image.”

- Cadeyrn
(http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare#Titles_of_the_Court)

Power, strength, poison, remaking Tyria in their image… sounds Elder Dragonish to me.

It is why I don’t think Mordremoth is interested in causing untold pain, but, according to my original theory for his intention, he might want to choke the world with his poisons and ensure that only the strong, the tough, and the cruel survive: he could be the avatar of a dark natural selection.

Now, before someone would say he’s similar to Jormag in the way he wants to empower the worthy, consider this: Jormag offers everyone a way to “survive” and perfect themselves, while Mordremoth seeks to elevate those who could endure and survive his apocalypse and therefore are allowed to revel in his vision for the future.

@Thalador.4218:

My original post was developed around the idea that corruption came in stages (low/partial/full) with increasingly noticeable symptoms for each level of corruption; this was to support the possibility of the Nightmare Court being corrupted but not showing any visible signs of corruption.

(Konig countered this with the idea that corruption was instant and complete, and used the naming/visual system of the Sons of Svanir/Icebrood as an example. My further research supports this idea.)

When giving examples of corruption, I was using run-of-the-mill grunts as the examples, not leadership. This is based on the idea that unless the dragon wants to preserve the mind of the minion, the minion will lose its mind as it gets more corrupted (meaning that while they may retain their memory, their ability for rational thought is impaired). I used Corporal Kellach as an example of this, as the only person I know of who was corrupted by Zhaitan while still alive.

I’m not sure how many Risen are capable of realizing when they are killed (again), and whether this is related to the severity/length of their corruption or some kind of ranking process (officers and champions aside; grunt-level thralls and brutes are often aware of death, and we wouldn’t know if the farm animals are aware or not). Also, other than being aware of death, grunts seem capable of pointing out targets, calling out to nearby allies, or babbling about immortality – all of which can be done without the need for rational thought (for me, an indicator of rational thought would be the ability to hold a conversation, the ability to plan or lead coordinated attacks, or the knowledge to retreat when badly wounded. I’ve only seen grunt-level Risen employ zerg tactics), hence my description of them as mindless.

Your description of it how seems that higher levels of corruption could trap the soul of the victim is interesting. Is it possible that instead of trapping the soul as you suggest, the higher the corruption (or maybe just the more effort put in) the more of the victim is recreated, starting from its basic mobility to its memory, its ability for rational thought and then even to its personality? This would mean that the soul is never corrupted, and the only thing remaining in the corpse is a shadow of the original being (or a memory footprint), although this idea might clash with the idea that the Risen saying things like “Finally… rest” would mean they can feel their soul being released.

Lastly, what would you describe Mordremoth’s desire as? With Jormag as the desire for power and Kralkatorrik as the desire for perfection, both seem to have somewhat overlapping fields of desire on your interpretation of Mordremoth, so is there a word that could sum up Mordremoth’s desire and differentiate it from those two dragons?

regfurby.4296:

The Champion Svanir Marauder in Svanir’s Dome (Wayfarer Foothills meta): he does, in fact, speak. This surprised me too. While using an Icebrood model he does not have Icebrood in his name… this led me to check the next item.

So then I misremember – well it’s not surprising he speaks, given how we know more powerful dragon minions holds more intelligence – irregardless of look, the strongest ones will be capable of speaking.

regfurby.4296:

All Sons of Svanir showing signs of corruption are labelled as Icebrood:

What I said was all generic (read: non-leaders/the weaker folks) are labelled as icerbood.

regfurby.4296:

I didn’t want to use Gavin as an example, as although he professes to be part of the Nightmare Court, his character is decidedly un-Nightmare Court-like.

Which is exactly my point – and he’s not the only one. If I remember correctly the Knight of Embers from the Where Life Goes storyline, as well as all three champions from Twilight Arbor (one being Sariel from the White Stag storyline too) are also lighter skinned than your run of the mill low ranked Nightmare Courtiers.

regfurby.4296:

I meant that the dragons (and not their minions) chose their element based on their original location; Primordus awoke deep underground among rock and lava, Jormag awoke in the far north among snow and ice, Zhaitan awoke beneath an ancient submerged rotting city (other than rot, he seems to like coral, barnacles, tentacle-things and suddenly bursting out from the water), and Kralkatorrik awoke as a ‘mountain’ in the middle of a lake (my OP has a theory on how Kralkatorrik might be using electricity to create the crystals; he is described as being surrounded by storm clouds and having ‘golden breath’, and his original location might have been frequently subject to storms… my belief is that his element is electricity rather than crystal). All these suggest that the dragons simply took as their element whatever they were in contact with when they awoke, and not in relation to their desire (for example, Glint, who was a champion of Kralkatorrik in his previous awakening, looks nothing like the Shatterer or other Branded minions).

Kralkatorrik isn’t the only Elder Dragon related to lightning – there’s lightning around where Zhaitan is in Arah (jump from the ship after killign him and you’ll see beneath the fog), as well as in Drakkar Spurs in Frostgorge Sound (and where the end boss of the Snowblind Fractal is with Jormag’s corruption). So I doubt Kralkatorrik uses lightning to form crystals – and even if he does, that still counters your argument because he’s making crystals using something he’s making. Though Glint looks nothing like the Shatterer, she’s still crystal – Kralkatorrik’s element.

Coral being on the Orrian undead and on Orr’s surface is due to the fact that it was submerged for 150 years. It has nothing to do with Zhaitan’s corruption because only Orrian undead/Orr are coral covered – not his dragon champions nor his newer undead.

If it were a case of using one’s nearby element, then there wouldn’t be a theme to their corruption – Zhaitan would corrupt living beings, Primordus would have non-fiery minions, and so forth, because while the minions might not choose the element, they’re still forced to make it and they’re all controlled by their Elder Dragon (with the more powerful ones having a slightly larger set of sentience and capabilities to control weaker minions). And it still wouldn’t explain why icebrood become ice, rather than merge with it (which would be the case if they were using their surrounding elements as you suggest).

@Thalador: My issue with that theory you’ve told me before is in the Nightmare Court’s actions – they torment to corrupt, and they continue tormenting until conversion/corruption. Even the weak don’t die off from this, as far as we have seen.

@regfurby’s latest post: we do know that some (if not all) higher level minions are enslaved souls – the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan entraps King Reza’s soul, for instance. Similarly, we know lower level minions do not enslave souls – there’s a Crusader who’s ghost is in Mount Maelstrom who says her body now roams as a risen. There’s also the Risen Wraiths which by definition of a Wraith should be a soul itself, and they’re fairly rare – only existing in certain high level areas or are named.

Kellach is unique in that he wasn’t corrupted by an Elder Dragon directly, but rather used an artifact which contained Zhaitan’s corruption. Kind of like how Sons of Svanir willingly become icebrood, he willingly became a “living risen” by using Zhaitan’s power – there’s also a necromancer in the charr storyline which is utilizing Zhaitan’s power in a similar means, but not herself but on others instead (your legionnaire got an amulet which is talked about in the tutorial/first conversation with surviving warband member which is brought up again in the lvl 20-30 storyline explaining how that amulet slowly turns its wearer into a risen and drawing other risen to it – Kellach likely suffered from the same kind of effect).

Konig Des Todes.2086

Not all Sons of Svanir are corrupted – those who appear like average norn aren’t corrupted at all, yet. And in fact, few Sons of Svanir are corrupted – only the leaders, though not all of them, are corrupted and use icebrood models.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Of those who are actually called Sons of Svanir and use an icebrood model (your “stage 1”), they are indeed all shamans, zealots, and other stronger/higher ranked members – and in fact, it’s because they’re turning/turned into icebrood that they’re higher ranked members – per norn blog post. Those which are not leaders of the Sons of Svanir but are corrupted are not ever called Sons of Svanir, but icebrood – this is because they’re your run of the mill mindless dragon minion (whereas the SoS leaders are more akin to champions – not only are they higher ranked in the SoS but they’re higher ranked in the icebrood leadership too, having been given more magic and thus more intelligence – presuming that fact for icebrood is the same as how Zhaitan works).

The only high ranking SoS member who’s a “stage 2” (again, as you put it) icebrood is the Wayfarer Foothills meta event boss, which never speaks iirc and was, in fact, locked up in the largest steading. Seemed more like a pet than a leader.

Konig Des Todes.2086

So then I misremember – well it’s not surprising he speaks, given how we know more powerful dragon minions holds more intelligence – irregardless of look, the strongest ones will be capable of speaking.

I was surprised because you considered a powerful, Son of Svanir-labelled Icebrood champion a pet because he was locked up and didn’t recall him speaking, whereas other powerful Sons of Svanir-labelled Icebrood are, according to you, all high-ranking members of the Sons of Svanir (and assumedly not locked up and able to speak), yet you state your belief that all powerful Icebrood are capable of speaking. So going by this, did you consider him a pet just because you remembered him as being locked up?

Konig Des Todes.2086

What I said was all generic (read: non-leaders/the weaker folks) are labelled as icerbood.

So there are no corrupted Sons of Svanir leaders/champions who are labelled as Icebrood?

regfurby.4296

I didn’t want to use Gavin as an example, as although he professes to be part of the Nightmare Court, his character is decidedly un-Nightmare Court-like.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which is exactly my point – and he’s not the only one. If I remember correctly the Knight of Embers from the Where Life Goes storyline, as well as all three champions from Twilight Arbor (one being Sariel from the White Stag storyline too) are also lighter skinned than your run of the mill low ranked Nightmare Courtiers.

I was referring to his personality, not his appearance. The Knight of Embers and Sariel behave like any other Nightmare Courtier would, but Gavin is polite, refined, has a sense of honor, and appears truly regretful that he has to clash with the player. Either way, I was discussing black eyes and not dark skin; if they had fair skin and black eyes, they’d still support my theory, thus making your point moot. And I’d already disproved my own theory by stating my discovery of a Nightmare Recruiter with green eyes in that same post, so this discussion is moot.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Kralkatorrik isn’t the only Elder Dragon related to lightning – there’s lightning around where Zhaitan is in Arah (jump from the ship after killign him and you’ll see beneath the fog), as well as in Drakkar Spurs in Frostgorge Sound (and where the end boss of the Snowblind Fractal is with Jormag’s corruption). So I doubt Kralkatorrik uses lightning to form crystals – and even if he does, that still counters your argument because he’s making crystals using something he’s making.

You miss my point. I’m suggesting that Kralkatorrik might be living electricity with a body of crystal created by that electricity, with the ability to use electricity to create crystal-based attacks or just directly use the electricity itself as an attack; this is based on the concept that fire can create molten rock, or heat and pressure can create diamond. A concept art(?) of Kralkatorrik also here depicts him with what seems to be electricity arcing directly from his body. Furthermore, Zhaitan doesn’t do anything with the lightning in the storms/fog around his body, whereas Kralkatorrik might have.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Though Glint looks nothing like the Shatterer, she’s still crystal – Kralkatorrik’s element.

Didn’t know that, point to you. Checked the GW2 and GW wiki entries for Glint, nothing was said about her being crystal. Where did you find this information?

regfurby.4296

Dragon elements: I meant that the dragons (and not their minions) chose their element based on their original location

Konig Des Todes.2086

If it were a case of using one’s nearby element, then there wouldn’t be a theme to their corruption – Zhaitan would corrupt living beings, Primordus would have non-fiery minions, and so forth, because while the minions might not choose the element, they’re still forced to make it and they’re all controlled by their Elder Dragon (with the more powerful ones having a slightly larger set of sentience and capabilities to control weaker minions). And it still wouldn’t explain why icebrood become ice, rather than merge with it (which would be the case if they were using their surrounding elements as you suggest).

It doesn’t matter where the dragons go after they wake up, the location where they woke up doesn’t change. And neither would their element, if based on the location where they woke up. In other words, this works like a one-off elemental attunement (per awakening).

As for why Icebrood become ice rather than merging with ice; this is probably because Jormag’s corruption directly changes their essence into that element, instead of combining them with that element; this, however, has nothing to do with my point, or even with whether or not they use nearby elements. This issue is entirely with the interpretation of the word ‘corruption’.

• “Pet” was probably the wrong term – but locked up nonetheless. There’s a few personal story missions where the Sons of Svanir have icebrood as powerful “pets” (I use the term for lack of something better – what I mean is a creature that they house), and some of these even attack the Sons of Svanir themselves. By definition, powerful dragon minions hold more intelligence – this usually means the capability to speak as well (though some more mindless ones speak as well, they cannot order others around or hold conversations or even taunt properly). I recalled the Svanir Marauder being locked up, and didn’t recall any speaking – so I figured that while strong mechanically, he wasn’t a powerful icebrood, or rather not powerful enough to be intelligent. And this may be the case, since his lines are rather short and simple-minded.
• Most Sons of Svanir who show corruption are given individual names, and those that don’t are like the two meta event icebrood bosses – the Svanir Shaman Chief and the Svanir Marauder. I haven’t encountered an icebrood who was a SoS leader but called an icebrood rather than Svanir – though they very much are at that point.
• I don’t see how Gavin having a slightly “better” personality really counts for anything, given that each high ranking courtier has their own set of personalities. Gavin still believes in the Nightmare Court’s beliefs and still works for them with fever.
• Well, firstly, we know that Kralkatorrik isn’t living lightning thanks to Edge of Destiny. Secondly, wouldn’t that very concept go against your suggestion that they use what’s available to them, rather than being innately tied to an element? Also, that concept art is of The Shatterer – one of Kralkatorrik’s dragon champions – not the Elder Dragon itself. As one can clearly see from its in-game model, the Shatterer is corrupted land, crystal, and ether. And if you read Edge of Destiny, you’d see that he too never uses that lightning – it just forms around him. I presume that this lightning is a physical manifestation of raw untamed power, which the Elder Dragons have a vast excess of.
• Arah explorable dungeon, the Forgotten path’s NPC states Glint was still made of crystal after being freed from Kralkatorrik’s corruption. And you can see crystal spikes on her body in the GW1 model.
• You’re still ignoring Kralkatorrik completely, and furthermore you’re just stretching the situation to fit your hypothesis. If they move areas, then the old element will no longer be accessible to them. If its based on where they wake up, why would it matter where they wake up this time – wouldn’t it instead be based on where they were first born/made instead in which case it would be not that its based on their environment but that they themselves are tied to the element since they were born from/within that element. Your beginning to make hole after hole in your own argument. And yes, icebrood turning into ice does have everything to do with your point – because if the corruption was based off of the environment, then the environment would be used – just as you initially argued is why Primordus and Mordremoth corrupts lava/plantlife, and Zhaitan corrupts undead. Because the element is used – that was your point. Jormag doesn’t use ice, nor does Kralkatorrik use crystal. They make their element, they’re not limited to it.

@Konig

Points 1 and 3 are subjective, there’s nothing much else to be said for it.

Points 2 and 5 are good to know.

Points 4 and 6: The Shatterer creates fields of electrical energy that do massive damage to players and stack conditions on them. People who die under/behind the Shatterer tend to get killed by this. The picture was my mistake, didn’t read the label clearly.

And yes, icebrood turning into ice does have everything to do with your point – because if the corruption was based off of the environment, then the environment would be used

My theory was that the dragons attuned themselves to the element present in the environment they woke up, not that they use the elements in their environment to corrupt. These two are completely different. In the first theory, after attuning to that element, they can corrupt it or utilize any aspect of it to corrupt; in the second theory they have no element and instead only use elements in their surroundings. It appears that you have been arguing with me over the second theory, which I have never claimed. The focus of my argument has always been about how the dragons came to embody their element, and what element do they embody.

From my original post: Primordus corrupts using lava, Mordremoth corrupts using plantlife (since when have I ever made this claim, by the way? but I’ll let it slide), Zhaitan corrupts using undeath, Jormag corrupts using ice, Kralkatorrik corrupts using electricity because the dragons attuned themselves to that element when they woke up, not because there was plenty of that element to use at the place they woke up.

Point 1 isn’t really subjective… It’s an observation based on his actions and the situation surrounding him, and given the fact that we learn dragon minions become more intelligent as they’re given more corrupted magic.

Point 3 could be subjective, but not entirely. Its a fact that he’s Nightmare Court, and that he pushes for the NC’s goals. He just holds more honor than your average NC member is all, which isn’t that different form the personality presented by Brangoire in Twilight Arbor.

As to the Shatterer making fields of electrical energy… and? He also makes crystals without elecrtical animations. Kralkatorrik is, more or less, more of a “Lightning and Crystal Dragon” rather than a “Crystal Dragon” but he’s still primarily crystal and he still creates both and three dragons hold ties to lightning.

As to the elements – okay, so I’ve been misunderstanding you. But that still doesn’t change the last notion I brought up. Why would they care about the elements of where they woke up? And three Elder Dragons at least had the same element their previous awakening, and by your wording it should change during each awakening. If that’s the case, then why would it matter for what element’s near them when they wake? And alternatively, why wouldn’t/couldn’t they change said element while awake? It makes no sense.

Furthermore, Kralkatorrik doesn’t wake up near crystal nor lightning – he wakes up near water and run of the mill Ascalonian-looking nature as seen here – so that’s a pretty big flaw in your theory still, regardless of Jormag (also, how the hell does lightning create crystal?). You seem content to ignore the fact of Kralkatorrik making the element too and without previous ties to it during this awakening, while arguing why Jormag doesn’t counter your argument.

Maybe it wasn’t you who brought up Mordremoth using plantlife because that’s what is near him, but someone did in the same manner using Zhaitan and Primordus as equal examples.